Bill Bigelow takes us on a journey through the heart of the Bay Area's legendary music scene, where the melodies of the Grateful Dead once danced through iconic venues like the Carousel Ballroom and the Fillmore West. As we explore his stories, from the Beatles to Bob Dylan, we witness the origins of a community united by music. Bill's encounters with the Dead's intimate shows and his insights into their ever-evolving relationship with promoter Bill Graham offer a rare glimpse into the spirit of an era defined by transformative sounds and kinship.
The air of a Grateful Dead concert was electric with camaraderie and the unexpected, like the time Bob Weir handed out tuna sandwiches or a compassionate security guard went above and beyond. Our episode captures those moments, the surge of energy during a "Dark Star" transition into "St. Stephen," and pays homage to the irreplaceable Pigpen. These concerts weren't just about music—they were a space where memories and lifelong bonds were forged, where each song became a collective heartbeat shared by everyone in the room.
Venture with us into the crossroads of social justice and music education, where the Zinn Education Project www.zinnedproject.org meets the anti-apartheid anthem "Sun City." We remember the voices that sang for change, like Little Steven and Bruce Springsteen, and the blues artists elevated by Bonnie Raitt. To cap it off, we discover the hypnotic fusion of North African rhythms and rock through the artistry of Bombino, drawing parallels to Jimi Hendrix and celebrating the joy of unraveling new sounds that continue to reshape our musical world. Join us for an episode that's not just a nod to the past, but also an embrace of the future's endless possibilities in sound.
Rethinking Schools - rethinkingschools.org
This episode is sponsored by ShakedownTshirts.com with unique lot-style T-shirts and gifts for Grateful Dead, Phish, Zappa, Panic, and more. All US orders over $35 Ship Free. Use code "Lot20" for 20% off any order.
Tales From The Lot
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Tales from the Lot, episode 23.
People were taking care of eachother.
My guest is Bill Bigelow, andif you've ever wondered what it
was like at the Grateful Deadbeginnings of the late 60s,
you're going to want to listento this one.
We did have some technicaldifficulties in the beginning
that I think I made worse bytrying to fix them.
So apologies for the noise, butyou will want to get through
this one.
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to Tales from the Lot.
This is Will.
My guest today is Bill Bigelow,from Portland Oregon.
How are you doing today, Bill?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
I'm good, Thanks Will .
Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
For sure, and so you're in Oregon now, but you're
saying you're from the Bay Areaoriginally.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Is that where you're kind of born and raised.
I grew up in Marin and thenlived all over the Bay.
I lived in Berkeley for a spell.
I lived in Kentfield.
I lived next door to the newRiders of the Purple Sage on
Hermit Lane in Kentfield whenGarcia played pedal steel with
them.
And I lived up in InvernessPark in the Point Reyes area and
(01:06):
Sleepy Hollow.
So all over Marin, oh, wow,yeah such a great area Growing
up.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
what were you into musically?
Like were we listening to likethrough high school?
And how did you find theGrateful Dead?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah, good question.
So I listened.
You know I was in seventh gradewhen the Beatles sort of hit
and so I, you know I was a bigBeatles fan.
I went to the Beatles at theCow Palace in 1964 when they
(01:40):
first came to San Francisco.
I still have my welcome KEWBeatles banner.
And you know I spent mysophomore year of high school in
Switzerland and I only had tworecord albums over there.
One was Freewheeling Bob Dylanand the other was Highway 61.
So those were sort of you knowit was kind of Dylan was sort of
(02:02):
my my anchor music and and andthe Beatles.
And then we got back in 67,just as you know, everything was
exploding in the Bay area andthe Fillmore and the Avalon, and
so that was that was a greattime to be in high school.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, no doubt Highway 61, particular favorite
of mine.
When did you first see the deadand how did you end up?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
there, you know, my very first concert.
My friend Ned Leathers I justwant to give a plug to Ned, who
is no longer living but Ned justhad such great musical tastes
and just sort of took me, begantaking me along and I can't even
(02:48):
believe that my mother let mego.
But on May 15th 1968, at theCarousel Ballroom at the corner
of Market and Van Ness in SanFrancisco later became the
Fillmore West the Hells Angelshad a concert with Big Brother
and the Holding Company asheadliners and the Youngbloods
(03:11):
and a little group calledRejoice.
It was a dollar.
It said no minors.
I was like 16 or whatever I wasthen.
But you know they weren'tchecking IDs and so I felt like,
you know, I had kind ofdiscovered the meaning of life.
I'd never seen anything likeDennis Joplin and Big Brother
before, and so Ned and I begangoing to concerts pretty much
(03:34):
every, you know, every week,every weekend and sometimes more
, and the Dead at that point,that was in the little sliver of
time when the Dead and theAirplane and Quicksilver and Big
Brother were running theCarousel Ballroom and then Bill
Graham had the original Fillmoreover on Fillmore Street, and so
(03:57):
I began seeing the Dead at theCarousel and they were uneven,
you know, they I I can rememberone time going and there might
have been like maybe a couplehundred people there so, and I
remember turning to ned andsaying god, I hope that they can
get some enthusiasm up with sofew people.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
And so those were those were before there was
anything called deadheads wowthat, that's some great bands to
see at that time.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
It was an amazing time.
And you know I don't know ifyou've talked on your show about
Bill Graham and you know youkind of had to love him and hate
him, you know because he was amean SOB, because he was a mean
SOB.
But on the other hand you knewthat if at a Bill Graham
(04:47):
organized concert, you know theywere going to start on time,
you were going to get threebands doing a set each and then
they were all going to startagain and they were going to
play at least until two in themorning, if not more, and they
were going to play at leastuntil 2 in the morning, if not
more.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
And so you know, in some ways it was a wonderful
thing to have this kind of youknow, I don't know what this
kind of a capitalist pig thererunning the Fillmore West and
Winterland too you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
you know if we, if we have talked about him on the
show and and it seems like thefew times that he's been
included, like he was kind of ahard-ass to whoever he was
interacting with, you know youknow he was a hard-ass.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
But here's the deal.
You know he he loved theGrateful Dead.
I mean, he had a love-haterelationship probably with the
Grateful Dead because he was aquintessential businessman and
you know, and the dead were sortof the, they lived in opposite
land, right.
But on the other hand, billGraham totally appreciated that.
One of my favorite quotes fromBill Graham about the dead is
(06:00):
that the Grateful Dead are notthe best at what they do.
They're the only ones who dowhat they do and I think that
that just captured it perfectlythat you know, there was nobody
like the Grateful Dead and andyou know, and Bill Graham, you
know, I, I imagine that the Deadplayed for Bill Graham, you
know, as much as they played foranybody, you know.
(06:22):
And so, but yes, he was a, hewas a problematic fellow.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
But did you keep seeing the dead all through
their history?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
So my first dead concerts were in 68 and it was
really in that period of 68, 69,70 and 71 that I saw them all
the time.
Um, I think that my last deadconcert was in at in eugene, at
austin stadium in 87, when theywere touring with bob dylan and
(07:00):
um, and it was a whole differentscene.
You know the when they, whenthey, you know when they became
so big that they were playingstadiums, and for me that was
kind of you know, not myGrateful Dead experience, and so
you know, I mean, you know themusic stayed great, but the
experience was not kind of theintimacy that I grew up with and
(07:26):
that was sort of post-Touch ofGray too.
Yeah, yeah.
But you know, one of the greatthings about being in the Bay
Area was that Jerry Garcia Imean he just played all the time
and it was just no big deal togo see Garcia.
I mean you could just kind of,you know, you could be sitting
(07:48):
around you know dinner and say,oh hey, let's go to Garcia
tonight, and you know saywhere's he playing?
And oh, he's at the Matrix, oroh, he's at the Keystone
Berkeley, and you know, and justgo over and you know rock and
roll, god that he became, youknow.
(08:15):
Yeah, he certainly did becomethat what are some of the
standout ones that you saw fromthat 68 to 71 era era was.
It was in january of 71 and um,uh, you know, we decided to go
over to keystone berkeley andsee garcia and um with merle
saunders and uh, you know,keystone berkeley was just kind
(08:38):
of a little hole in the wall.
It was there on universityavenue and it wasn't like a big,
huge, you know, venue, wasn'tlike the fillmore or winterland
or anything like that, and wedidn't know how long it took to
drive from, you know, pointReyes and Inverness, wherever we
were, and so we left, we gotthere early and when we got
there there was kind of you know, really nobody there and they
(08:59):
took our money or whatever.
We just walked in and wasnobody in there except for the
Grateful Dead.
The entire Grateful Dead waswith Merle Saunders on stage,
you know, just kind ofrehearsing, doing a sound check
or whatever.
And so, you know, I mean weweren't even 21, but we, you
know, we got a pitcher of beer.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
We got the table, we sat in the front row and just
kind of kicked back and listenedto the Grateful Dead play to
him.
So that was a wonderfulexperience.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Was there some interaction?
I mean like were theyappreciative?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, you know, there was always interaction in the
small.
I mean, I remember one time atthe Carousel I don't think it
was when the Fillmore West hadstarted there yet I think it was
still the carousel and you know, the dead came out and we would
always get there early so youcould just kind of you could
(09:55):
really lean on the stage.
I mean, the stage was just notthat tall at the carousel at
Fillmore West it was.
You know, it might have beenlike three and a half feet tall
or something, and so you halffeet tall or something, and so
you could just lean on it.
And Bobby Weir came out with aplate of tuna fish sandwiches.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Sort of past these little tuna fish sandwiches.
I was like, okay, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And you know if I was thinking about stories, one of
the kind of the I don't know ifyou want to call it bittersweet
but contradictory stories.
So I went one night it was sortof a famous concert now.
I think it was May 29th 1971.
(10:39):
It was at Winterland and awhole bunch of us went and
during the concert they, um, youknow, they passed out all this
uh, punch and you know juice orwhatever fruit juice, and it was
all laced with acid and uh andI kind of had a sense that it
(11:02):
was going to be and I didn'thave any.
But everybody had a lot.
And you know, some people saythat it was the dead who had
done this.
Other people say, oh no, thedead would never dose anybody
like that.
But I think of course theywould.
But it was.
(11:23):
You know, a lot of people weretaken to the hospital and one of
the women who I was there with,she had way too much.
She spun around and she justfell on the concrete, chipped
her tooth.
But one of the things about BillGraham and those concerts he
had these rent-a-cops, and youknow, today you think about
(11:45):
these kind of bully rent-a-copsand these were sort of
rent-a-cops who they had seen itall.
And so this one guy he musthave been like 250 or 300 pounds
a rent-a-cop and this womanthat I was with, who I mean
everybody was just really actingcrazy, they were screaming.
And this woman that I was with,I mean everybody was just
really acting crazy, they werescreaming.
(12:06):
And he went up to her and heput his arms around her and he
said sweetheart, everybody lovesyou, everything's going to be
OK.
And he actually went out intothe middle of the street this is
right after the concert whereeverybody is kind of going crazy
and he stopped this Volkswagenbus, just stopped them, just
(12:27):
stood in front of the bus and hewent up to the driver and he
said you're going to take them.
And he gave them the address ofthis hospital.
He didn't ask them, would you?
He just instructed that, and soyou know.
And so we went and you know shewas taken care of.
But I think that that was sortof you know, sort of you know,
(12:53):
sort of the ethos is that youknow, even in kind of crises
like that, that people weretaking care of each other.
Speaker 5 (12:57):
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(13:17):
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Speaker 3 (13:21):
Crap, I have no idea where I am.
I just want to get to theconcert on time.
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Speaker 3 (14:14):
You know, my favorite one that I listen to every week
, I mean, is from August 6, 1971.
I didn't go but I had a secondgeneration reel-to-reel copy of
the tape and you know, it's justlike.
You know, garcia is just kindof talking to God, you know.
(14:35):
I mean, he's just, you know,and it's just so beautiful and
it's so powerful, and you justknow that people's lives were
changed that night and it waslike the dead could be.
The dead had plenty of offnights, but with their on nights
it was like it was just like sospectacular and, you know, like
(15:00):
nothing ever.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
I remember going to one of those you know early
concerts when it would haveeither been at the Carousel or
in the early days of theFillmore West, and you know it
was before.
You know, after a while itbecame like the dead could do no
wrong.
They could get up there andthey could do anything, and
(15:24):
people would kind of scream andyou know, applaud and you know
give them standing ovations, buteverybody was just kind of
sitting and I think probablythey were playing Dark Star, and
then Dark Star kind of movesinto St Stephen, and then
there's that moment in StStephen, you know it kind of
starts out gentle, and then theyjust crash into it and it was
(15:47):
just as one.
The audience just rose and justyou know, and it's like you
know the dead could just takeyou places, that you know that
only the dead can take you.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
That's like right after the lady finger, part Lady
finger, yeah.
Crashes right in, so you wereseeing him with Pigpen.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Oh yeah, absolutely For me there is no Grateful Dead
without Pigpen.
Pig pen, um, you know, I meanhe was.
Uh, yeah, I mean you know, youknow obviously love light but
but so many, I mean it was agreat I actually.
I know that it's sort ofcontroversial, but you know the
(16:29):
period when tom constantin umwhich I might be mispronouncing
his name, but when he came inaround the live dead period and
and so Pigpen sort of got movedoff the organ onto kind of the
(16:49):
congas and still played a reallyimportant role in singing.
But yeah, you know he was.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
He was the life of the party.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
I believe it.
It's funny, you know, I don'tthink I mean I don't know that
any of us knew that he was sick.
I don't think I don't know thatany of us knew that he was
really kind of getting sickduring all that period, and so
you know it was.
I mean he used to.
Really, you know, his organ wasvery centered, I mean he was,
(17:23):
it was a big place, a big partof the music, and obviously then
it became, it became less so.
And you know, after TomConstant, I guess that the next
keyboard player must have beenKeith Godshow who came in.
I remember the first time, Ithink it was probably the first
time that Keith Godshow playedwith them in San Francisco.
We went to the Harding Theaterand there's a CD of it now, you
(17:52):
know well, there's CDs ofeverything now, I guess.
But so the Harding Theater wasnot a usual music venue.
It was this kind of, you know,sort of movie theater, I guess,
on Divisadero in San Francisco,and so it was.
It would have been November,would have been November of 1971
(18:18):
.
It would have been November of1971.
And so I think that KeithGodshow began playing with them
just a brief period before that.
But it was interesting becauseI liked him.
But the dead at that.
It was kind of like he slowedthem down a little bit, that it.
(18:39):
It was almost like he was sortof having to still learn the
songs at that point.
There's a lot of songs.
That was before.
Yeah, there were a lot of songs, right.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
A lot of songs, yeah, but that was before.
That was before.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Donna began singing with them.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Did you consider going to the Wenderland shows in
74, the farewell shows orwhatever?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
You know, in 74, I was actually an Antioch College
student in Ohio, so I didn't Idid.
I did go to the.
All the last days of the filmwere kind of.
In fact you can see Bill Grahamwalking right by me in that
film.
I'm in line there and uh, andactually a bunch of my friends,
my, my, my then friend, kimMitchell, see her kind of her,
(19:37):
her beautiful blonde hippie facekind of fills the screen at one
point.
You know like this is just totell you about Jerry Garcia.
So, garcia, so it's the RowanBrothers are opening, and then
it's New Riders of the PurpleSage, and then it's the Rowan
brothers are opening, and thenit's new writers of the purple
(19:58):
sage, and then it's the gratefuldead, and so they're they're
going to play it's going to besix sets total, right At
Fillmore West.
And so Garcia plays pedal steelwith the Rowan brothers, garcia
plays pedal steel with newwriters of the purple sage, and
then Garcia plays lead with thegrateful dead, and then he
(20:19):
starts over and does it allagain.
So Garcia plays every singleset, from like 8.
Pm or eight, 30, whenever itstarted, till you know two or
three in the morning, and youknow it's just like you know the
boy loved music.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
What?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
can I say that's hungry?
Yeah, it's really yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
And you know, and hungry, yeah, it's really yeah,
and you know, and I mean he wasjust playing pretty much every
night of the week and I bragabout this to whoever will
listen.
But my favorite address of anyplaces I've ever lived is on
Hermit Lane in Kentfield, and soKentfield it's really like
within walking.
(20:56):
It's like five or ten minutesat the most from College of
Marin, but it's this beautifullittle kind of you know, dense
tree area.
It's a dirt road and there wereonly two houses there.
There was our house and therewere New Riders of the Purple
Sage.
I don't know if it was likeMarmaduke whose house it was,
but their rehearsal room, theNew Riders rehearsal room, was
(21:17):
their rehearsal room.
The new writers rehearsal roomwas their living room, and so it
was right next door to ours andso in my room kind of was on
that side of the house, so so Icould literally lie on my bed
and just kind of just hang outthere and listen to Jerry's
pedal steel come in through mywindow.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
Just hang out there and listen to Jerry's pedal
steel.
Come in through my window Wow,it was both the greatest place
to live, but also you know justmusically, is how lovely to live
right next door to them.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It was when I actually got, I was working with
the Marine Peace Coalition.
I was doing anti-war work atthe time, working with the Marin
Peace Coalition.
I was doing anti-war work atthe time.
This is the spring and summerand into the fall of 1971.
And so I went next door,knocked on the door and asked
(22:10):
them if they would do a benefitfor the Marin Peace Coalition
and this Marin County People'sFood Co-op that we were
organizing as sort of analternative to the capitalist
Safeway and other food stores.
And they said, yeah, sure, andyou know, go to our office and
here's, you know here's ourmanager is Sam Cutler and talk
(22:33):
to Sam and he'll set it up andtell him that.
We said yes, and so I did.
I went to the Grateful Dead'soffice in San Rafael and Garcia
was there and just kind ofhanging out and Bill Kreitzman
was there and the best soundsystem I've ever heard in my
life to this day was in thatoffice in San Rafael, which I
(22:55):
don't know, maybe it's possiblethey still have.
It was in that office in SanRafael, which I don't know,
maybe it's possible they stillhave it.
But, and so you know, we metwith Sam Cutler and set it up
and worked on the dates and gotit all arranged and ultimately
they said that they had aconflict and they backed out of
it.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
But anyway, it was my my moment in the Grateful
Dead's inner sanctum.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
That's a great moment .
That's a great moment.
It was a great moment and alsoit was a cool moment, you know.
I mean cause this, it was justkind of Jerry and me just kind
of sitting in in the office andhe's opening his mail and you
know these checks, whatever itwas.
You know $200 from the the, youknow Keystone, you know
Berkeley or whatever, and andand, but they were playing the
(23:40):
dead.
I mean, they were playing theirown stuff in there and it was
just, it was so crisp that youreally couldn't tell that they
weren't right there playing it.
I mean, I've never heard asound system that good before.
You know, they were alwayschanging and you know you see a
(24:03):
film like Grateful Dog.
You know Jerry and DavidGrissman, and you know they just
loved all music.
I mean they loved bluegrass,they loved blues, they loved
country and Western and and theother thing and this is, you
(24:24):
know this was, it was definitelytrue of the dead.
I mean they, they weren'ttrying, they weren't like
pedagogues, they weren't liketrying to educate their, their
you know their listeners, but insome ways they were, they were
giving us all a course in thehistory of american music and
and you know, and in some waysbill graham was the same.
You know, bill graham, he knewlike.
(24:44):
I can remember going to see thewho and I saw the who three
nights in a row and bill grahamhad woody herman's big band with
them, and you know and well,barely.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Yeah, no, we were, and we were sitting right in
front with the who too.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
And you know, and we'd go to see.
You know I can remember goingto see the airplane and Bill
Graham had Mongo, santa Maria,and the first and only time I
went to the original Fillmoreback in it would have been late
May of 68.
So it was the Yardbirds with, Iguess would Jeff Beck have been
(25:31):
playing lead or Jimmy Page.
I think it was Jimmy Page.
Your viewers can check that outthere, but anyway, so it was.
You know it's a beautiful dayand you know they played, but
Cecil Taylor was the opening.
Now, cecil Taylor, nobody, I canguarantee you, nobody other
than people who were coming tosee Cecil Taylor.
(25:53):
You know, I mean, this isavant-garde, this is like crazy
jazz.
And Bill Graham did that allthe time.
You know he had these old bluesguys who he would, you know,
bring on to play with.
He knew that.
You know that.
You know the Dead, or theAirplane, or the who, or you
(26:14):
know Led Zeppelin or whoever wasgoing to fill the place, so he
could, he could be an educatorpast that point, and he was.
He had very diverse.
You know, pentangle.
You know, I mean hippiesweren't going to go to see
pentangle.
I mean I wasn't.
I'll just speak for myself.
I wasn't going to go seepentangle, but I was delighted,
to you know, to be able to beeducated in that, in that kind
(26:36):
of way.
Yeah, I don't know, pentangleor cecil taylor?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I had to I able to be educated in that, in that kind
of way?
Yeah, I don't know.
Or Cecil Taylor, I had to, Ihad to write him down.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Oh yeah, Look, yeah, Look up Cecil Taylor and, and
you know and Pentangle, and youknow a lot of those like Burt
Yanch and, and who did he playwith?
But you know a lot of thosereally brilliant, brilliant
British acoustic guitar playerswho you know, a lot of those
really brilliant, brilliantBritish acoustic guitar players
who you know, the Garcia's andthe Clapton's, and all those
(27:05):
people were listening to themand learning from them, yeah,
and, and Bill Graham was, wasyou know kind of bringing them
on to to open, yeah, Did youever catch Miles?
Miles Davis.
Miles Davis, you know I didn'tI could have, and you know the
(27:32):
people I didn't see when I couldhave.
You know I didn't go to BB King, I didn't go to Albert King.
You know I was a little.
You know I started going justafter Otis Redding.
You know Bill Graham went allthe way to Georgia to bring Otis
Redding up to you know, to playin the Fillmore, and but that's
(27:55):
another thing too.
You know he was, you know hewould go out of his way to try,
and you know, expand the kind ofthe musical taste of the people
who you know, who were thoseaudiences, but also he was being
educated by.
You know this is interestingthat you know people like
Michael Bloomfield and NickGravenitis and well, even even
(28:20):
what's his name, steve Miller.
You know these Chicago bluespeople who ultimately came and
settled in the Bay Area.
Bill Graham was going to themand say, well, who do, who do I
bring?
Well, you bring Magic Sam, youbring James Cotton, you bring
all these guys.
And so Bill Graham just didthat and he, he let these, these
folks kind of be their, their,their tutors.
(28:43):
And I remember one of myfavorite concerts was the very
opening of the Fillmore West.
It was July 1968.
And the headliner was PaulButterfield and Paul Butterfield
Blues Band.
It was after Bloomfield hadleft.
And then the second band was agroup I had never heard of
(29:05):
called 10 years after.
And then, and then the openingwas, this group called truth,
and I'd never heard of truth.
But then then they were.
There was a substitute band thatI'd also never heard of, a
little band from great britaincalled fleetwood mac, and this
is when they were a blues band.
Right, it was before stevienicks and all that.
But know, it was Peter Green.
(29:26):
And and that's another exampleof how you know the blues,
people are telling Bill Graham,you know, fleetwood, peter Green
is like he's, he's big time,he's like he's an Eric Clapton
and you got to bring him.
And no, no, none of us had everheard of him.
But so again, that sort of thateducative role that Bill Graham
(29:47):
was playing, yeah, yeah, andyou know, and you know all those
seeds that got planted, I meanobviously all over the country,
but you know, in the Bay Area,talking about Bill Graham.
You know the Rolling Stonesshould have listened to Bill
(30:07):
Graham, that you know that theywanted to do the free concert in
in December of 1970, 69.
And Bill Graham didn't want anypart of it.
You know this, is this not notwell planned?
I, I'm, I'm not going to bepart of this.
The dead not to their creditwere going to be part of it in
(30:29):
the airplane and actually thestory gets told in different
ways.
But it may have been theairplane who suggested that
Hells Angels do security for theconcert.
But I went, I was going toschool in Stockton, so it was
just a short way away from theAltamont Speedway, and so, you
(30:52):
know, santana played and theairplane played and Flying
Burrito Brothers, who else?
And the dead were supposed toplay, but the dead just kind of,
you know, walked away from itand then, after the airplane
played, that was when the stones.
(31:13):
You know, they waited andwaited and waited and waited and
they wanted it to get dark sothat their lights would and
people had been there.
I mean, we'd been there sincelike six or seven in the morning
, I think, and it was just adisaster waiting to happen and
it happened big time.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I was just thinking about that when you were talking
about the three bands.
Two sets each, that's a longtime, not only for the band but
the people that are watching.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Also, yeah, good point.
And also, you know I don't knowif you so neither Winterland
nor you know Fillmore West.
They didn't have seats itwasn't like Fillmore East.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Fillmore East had seats.
I understand I've never been tothe Fillmore East, but we
didn't have any seats.
It was all.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
you sat on the hard dance floor On the beer floor.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
Well, whatever, yeah, and so floor on the beer floor.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Well, well, whatever, yeah, yeah, and so, um, and you
know, you would kind of rush inand you'd kind of get your your
seat, but then you would sit,you know, first set, second set,
third set, fourth set.
You know, all the way, all theway through through the evening.
But you know it was, you know wewere young and and uh, um, and
know we were willing to,whatever it was, and I think it,
(32:26):
I think it was two dollars andfifty cents to get in, I think,
to the carousel, I think, and Ithink Bill Graham might have
raised it to three or even threefifty, I can't remember, but
you know it still was reallyreasonable.
You know it still was reallyreasonable.
But you know the thing about,you know, I mean it was just I
(32:52):
thought that every place in thecountry, you know that this was
going on at the time, I didn't,you know, and because not only
did we have, not only did wehave, you know, the, the
Fillmore, and then you know, forthe, for the, if it was a big
band like, say, Led Zeppelin,would move over to to Winterland
for the weekend.
But you know there was also theAvalon and there were other,
(33:18):
you know there was, there were,you know, places in Marin County
and there was still the matrixI.
I saw Garcia there once at thematrix um, which, uh, you know
there's a, uh, there's a coupleof wonderful um, grace slick and
the great society um albumsrecorded at the matrix um before
she joined, uh, uh, theairplane um, but anyway, you
(33:44):
didn't realize you were livingin such a cultural and political
mecca at the time.
I said a little bit, but I didthink it was more widespread.
I mean, I knew that it wasn'tgoing on in Wyoming, let's say.
But and you know, and I wentdown in the summer of 68.
I went down to LA to spend timewith my good friend, Jim Green,
(34:10):
and Jim was a year younger, butwe went to the Whiskey, A Go-Go
to see Eric Burden and theAnimals a two drink minimum or
whatever.
And and then we went to, uh,the uh, Santa Monica civic
(34:30):
auditorium to see the who um,and that too was a different
scene, because, you know, therewere seats, you could sit in a
chair and watch them, which was,you know, for better for worse
so well, it was a, it was a.
yeah, it was a wonderful time toto be there and yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
You mentioned you worked for the or you worked
with a nonprofit.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Well, yeah, I mean back in the day, I mean I was, I
was working with the MarinePeace Coalition and you know, as
we were talking earlier, youknow, I think it bears, you know
, emphasizing that there was apolitical dimension to all of
this.
And I remember one timestanding in line at the Fillmore
and this would have been 68,because this guy had this
(35:20):
McCarthy for president button,and realizing, you know, you
could look at somebody, I mean,first of all, everybody who's
coming to these, you know peoplehave long hair, they, you know,
you know you know what theythink about.
You know legalization ofmarijuana, you know what they
think about the war and thedraft, and that, in fact, that
there was as imperfect and asweird and often sexist and and
(35:44):
sometimes racist and all as itwas, that there was this
counterculture, kind of brewing,this kind of, you know, defiant
movement, that and that themusic was a part of that and you
(36:12):
know, and there was a morepolitical part, like Country Joe
and the Fish, you know, was amore kind of left wing band, you
know that.
You know, feel like I'm fixingto die rag was, you know,
explicitly anti-war and in someless, you know, explicitly
political groups like, like theGrateful Dead, but you know, the
airplanes volunteers you know,and that the airplanes
volunteers you know, and that so, so, so I think it's important
(36:33):
to think about the music and theway in which it hooked in to a
broader kind of sense ofdefiance and social justice and
and peace in.
That was just, yeah, it was animportant piece and so that
there was a broader educationgoing on.
(36:55):
So as I was being pulled moreinto politics, I was also being
pulled more into this wholecounterculture at the same time,
more into this wholecounterculture at the same time.
So you gave me an opportunityto kind of plug the organization
that I work with.
I'm the curriculum editor forRethinking Schools magazine.
Rethinking Schools is aquarterly magazine, focuses on
(37:19):
critical issues in educationfrom a social justice standpoint
, and I also co-direct the ZenEducation Project, which some of
your viewers, listeners, may befamiliar with the book A
People's History of the UnitedStates by Howard Zinn.
It's sort of the most prominentcritical, you know, kind of
grassroots teach the truth aboutUS history book.
(37:42):
And so we offer free people'shistory curriculum for teachers
who want to teach outside thetextbook and that's sort of our
mission to provide that kind ofof resource and also we try to,
you know, we try to offer a wayfor teachers who want to connect
(38:04):
.
You know some of the socialjustice music work with that and
so we encourage people to.
You know you can just go to theZen Education Project and you
know, put in music and see thekind of the curriculum that
comes up.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Awesome.
Yeah, I'll put a link to thattoo, so people can check it out.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
I did the teaching guide for the Sun City video.
I don't know if you rememberLittle Steven, who was the lead
guitarist for E Street Band backin the 80s.
Do I have that record.
Yeah, you sure do.
Yeah, it's a wonderful recordand it was on kind of regular
(38:51):
play on MTV back in the day.
But this is a song that youknow.
Basically it was.
I'm not going to play Sun Citybecause during apartheid in
South Africa, the South African,the white regime was trying to
lure musicians, the same waythat Israel is trying to lure
(39:11):
musicians to offer legitimacytoday that the white South
Africans were trying to lure.
You know famous acts.
You know Rod Stewart playedthere, tina Turner played there,
turner played there and solittle Steven and got the song
(39:37):
together and got people to agreeto be part of this music video.
I'm not going to play Sun Cityand with Bob Dylan and Lou Reed
and Run DMC and Africa Bambadaand Ringo and Keith Richards and
Bono, and it was just.
You know it was an amazingthing.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
And after that you know, by and large nobody did
play Sun City because basicallythe whole progressive you know,
music movement, you know said no, this is not a cool thing we
don't offer.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
You know, miles davis was part of that.
Um, we don't want to, you know,lend our support to apartheid
in south africa.
And you know, and if you'reagain, if you're listeners and
viewers, you know, go back andlook at that.
I mean, miles davis is on itand um, it's, it's a whole album
too, and I think bono has asong on it.
Um, it's possible that keithrichards has a song on it, um,
(40:28):
but it was, you know, it wasreally um, it was produced by,
um, you know, by little stevenvan zandt, who you know, who did
so many, you know great thingsduring that period.
And of course, brucespringsteen is is is part of
that sun city piece too.
Bonnie rate don't want to forgetbonnie rate, she's on there
jackson brown, you know, andshe's another one, you know, we
(40:51):
were talking about kind of theeducative role of, of of
musicians, and bonnie rate,really, you know, she lifted up
so many african, american bluespeople and you know, just said,
just said, okay, you like me,you love what.
You listen to me.
You know, let's listen to theseother people too.
You know, let's listen to JohnLee Hooker.
(41:12):
You know, and, and so she wasalways about kind of honoring
you know.
You know where the music camefrom.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Right, so okay, so obviously you've got great taste
in music.
So what's something, what'ssomething you found lately
that's struck you as somethingthat the listeners should go out
and check out?
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Well, I'll tell you one.
You know Bombino, so I don'tknow if you've heard Bombino.
So I, I Bombino.
So I don't know if you've heardBombino, so I Bombino is from
North Africa and I think ofBombino is like the Jimi Hendrix
of North Africa, and so IBombino.
(42:01):
Well, actually I was going to goto the Portland Blues Festival
because I wanted to see LosLobos.
They were headlining this oneevening and Los Lonely Boys and
Bombino was sandwiched inbetween and I got a detached
retina I don't know, don't everget one because you have to lie
on your side for seven days, andso I couldn't go out anywhere.
(42:23):
But KBOO Radio give a littleshout out to KBOO Radio in
Portland have to lie on yourside for seven days, and so I
couldn't go out anywhere.
But I, but kabu radio give alittle shout out to kabu radio
in portland um, they, they, uh,uh.
You know they had the wholeblues festival live, and so I
was listening to bombino.
I thought what the hell is this?
I, you know, this is like musicI'd never heard before, and so
it's like sort of traditionalNorth African sound.
(42:47):
But it's just, but it's got,you know, deep blues, and you
know I just rock and roll too,and so yeah.
So listen to Bombino.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
All right, I'll check it out for sure.
Bill Bigelow, thank you so muchfor joining me.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
Thank you, thank you, you.
It's been a pleasure.
Tales from the Lot, episode 23.
People were taking care of eachother.
My guest is Bill Bigelow, andif you've ever wondered what it
was like at the Grateful Deadbeginnings of the late 60s,
you're going to want to listento this one.
We did have some technicaldifficulties in the beginning
that I think I made worse bytrying to fix them.
So apologies for the noise, butyou will want to get through
this one.
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, welcome to Tales from the Lot.
This is Will.
My guest today is Bill Bigelow,from Portland Oregon.
How are you doing today, Bill?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
I'm good, Thanks Will .
Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
For sure, and so you're in Oregon now, but you're
saying you're from the Bay Areaoriginally.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Is that where you're kind of born and raised.
I grew up in Marin and thenlived all over the Bay.
I lived in Berkeley for a spell.
I lived in Kentfield.
I lived next door to the newRiders of the Purple Sage on
Hermit Lane in Kentfield whenGarcia played pedal steel with
them.
And I lived up in InvernessPark in the Point Reyes area and
(01:06):
Sleepy Hollow.
So all over Marin, oh, wow,yeah such a great area Growing
up.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
what were you into musically?
Like were we listening to likethrough high school?
And how did you find theGrateful Dead?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah, good question.
So I listened.
You know I was in seventh gradewhen the Beatles sort of hit
and so I, you know I was a bigBeatles fan.
I went to the Beatles at theCow Palace in 1964 when they
(01:40):
first came to San Francisco.
I still have my welcome KEWBeatles banner.
And you know I spent mysophomore year of high school in
Switzerland and I only had tworecord albums over there.
One was Freewheeling Bob Dylanand the other was Highway 61.
So those were sort of you knowit was kind of Dylan was sort of
(02:02):
my my anchor music and and andthe Beatles.
And then we got back in 67,just as you know, everything was
exploding in the Bay area andthe Fillmore and the Avalon, and
so that was that was a greattime to be in high school.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, no doubt Highway 61, particular favorite
of mine.
When did you first see the deadand how did you end up?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
there, you know, my very first concert.
My friend Ned Leathers I justwant to give a plug to Ned, who
is no longer living but Ned justhad such great musical tastes
and just sort of took me, begantaking me along and I can't even
(02:48):
believe that my mother let mego.
But on May 15th 1968, at theCarousel Ballroom at the corner
of Market and Van Ness in SanFrancisco later became the
Fillmore West the Hells Angelshad a concert with Big Brother
and the Holding Company asheadliners and the Youngbloods
(03:11):
and a little group calledRejoice.
It was a dollar.
It said no minors.
I was like 16 or whatever I wasthen.
But you know they weren'tchecking IDs and so I felt like,
you know, I had kind ofdiscovered the meaning of life.
I'd never seen anything likeDennis Joplin and Big Brother
before, and so Ned and I begangoing to concerts pretty much
(03:34):
every, you know, every week,every weekend and sometimes more
, and the Dead at that point,that was in the little sliver of
time when the Dead and theAirplane and Quicksilver and Big
Brother were running theCarousel Ballroom and then Bill
Graham had the original Fillmoreover on Fillmore Street, and so
(03:57):
I began seeing the Dead at theCarousel and they were uneven,
you know, they I I can rememberone time going and there might
have been like maybe a couplehundred people there so, and I
remember turning to ned andsaying god, I hope that they can
get some enthusiasm up with sofew people.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
And so those were those were before there was
anything called deadheads wowthat, that's some great bands to
see at that time.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
It was an amazing time.
And you know I don't know ifyou've talked on your show about
Bill Graham and you know youkind of had to love him and hate
him, you know because he was amean SOB, because he was a mean
SOB.
But on the other hand you knewthat if at a Bill Graham
(04:47):
organized concert, you know theywere going to start on time,
you were going to get threebands doing a set each and then
they were all going to startagain and they were going to
play at least until two in themorning, if not more, and they
were going to play at leastuntil 2 in the morning, if not
more.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
And so you know, in some ways it was a wonderful
thing to have this kind of youknow, I don't know what this
kind of a capitalist pig thererunning the Fillmore West and
Winterland too you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
you know if we, if we have talked about him on the
show and and it seems like thefew times that he's been
included, like he was kind of ahard-ass to whoever he was
interacting with, you know youknow he was a hard-ass.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
But here's the deal.
You know he he loved theGrateful Dead.
I mean, he had a love-haterelationship probably with the
Grateful Dead because he was aquintessential businessman and
you know, and the dead were sortof the, they lived in opposite
land, right.
But on the other hand, billGraham totally appreciated that.
One of my favorite quotes fromBill Graham about the dead is
(06:00):
that the Grateful Dead are notthe best at what they do.
They're the only ones who dowhat they do and I think that
that just captured it perfectlythat you know, there was nobody
like the Grateful Dead and andyou know, and Bill Graham, you
know, I, I imagine that the Deadplayed for Bill Graham, you
know, as much as they played foranybody, you know.
(06:22):
And so, but yes, he was a, hewas a problematic fellow.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
But did you keep seeing the dead all through
their history?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
So my first dead concerts were in 68 and it was
really in that period of 68, 69,70 and 71 that I saw them all
the time.
Um, I think that my last deadconcert was in at in eugene, at
austin stadium in 87, when theywere touring with bob dylan and
(07:00):
um, and it was a whole differentscene.
You know the when they, whenthey, you know when they became
so big that they were playingstadiums, and for me that was
kind of you know, not myGrateful Dead experience, and so
you know, I mean, you know themusic stayed great, but the
experience was not kind of theintimacy that I grew up with and
(07:26):
that was sort of post-Touch ofGray too.
Yeah, yeah.
But you know, one of the greatthings about being in the Bay
Area was that Jerry Garcia Imean he just played all the time
and it was just no big deal togo see Garcia.
I mean you could just kind of,you know, you could be sitting
(07:48):
around you know dinner and say,oh hey, let's go to Garcia
tonight, and you know saywhere's he playing?
And oh, he's at the Matrix, oroh, he's at the Keystone
Berkeley, and you know, and justgo over and you know rock and
roll, god that he became, youknow.
(08:15):
Yeah, he certainly did becomethat what are some of the
standout ones that you saw fromthat 68 to 71 era era was.
It was in january of 71 and um,uh, you know, we decided to go
over to keystone berkeley andsee garcia and um with merle
saunders and uh, you know,keystone berkeley was just kind
(08:38):
of a little hole in the wall.
It was there on universityavenue and it wasn't like a big,
huge, you know, venue, wasn'tlike the fillmore or winterland
or anything like that, and wedidn't know how long it took to
drive from, you know, pointReyes and Inverness, wherever we
were, and so we left, we gotthere early and when we got
there there was kind of you know, really nobody there and they
(08:59):
took our money or whatever.
We just walked in and wasnobody in there except for the
Grateful Dead.
The entire Grateful Dead waswith Merle Saunders on stage,
you know, just kind ofrehearsing, doing a sound check
or whatever.
And so, you know, I mean weweren't even 21, but we, you
know, we got a pitcher of beer.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
We got the table, we sat in the front row and just
kind of kicked back and listenedto the Grateful Dead play to
him.
So that was a wonderfulexperience.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Was there some interaction?
I mean like were theyappreciative?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, you know, there was always interaction in the
small.
I mean, I remember one time atthe Carousel I don't think it
was when the Fillmore West hadstarted there yet I think it was
still the carousel and you know, the dead came out and we would
always get there early so youcould just kind of you could
(09:55):
really lean on the stage.
I mean, the stage was just notthat tall at the carousel at
Fillmore West it was.
You know, it might have beenlike three and a half feet tall
or something, and so you halffeet tall or something, and so
you could just lean on it.
And Bobby Weir came out with aplate of tuna fish sandwiches.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Sort of past these little tuna fish sandwiches.
I was like, okay, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And you know if I was thinking about stories, one of
the kind of the I don't know ifyou want to call it bittersweet
but contradictory stories.
So I went one night it was sortof a famous concert now.
I think it was May 29th 1971.
(10:39):
It was at Winterland and awhole bunch of us went and
during the concert they, um, youknow, they passed out all this
uh, punch and you know juice orwhatever fruit juice, and it was
all laced with acid and uh andI kind of had a sense that it
(11:02):
was going to be and I didn'thave any.
But everybody had a lot.
And you know, some people saythat it was the dead who had
done this.
Other people say, oh no, thedead would never dose anybody
like that.
But I think of course theywould.
But it was.
(11:23):
You know, a lot of people weretaken to the hospital and one of
the women who I was there with,she had way too much.
She spun around and she justfell on the concrete, chipped
her tooth.
But one of the things about BillGraham and those concerts he
had these rent-a-cops, and youknow, today you think about
(11:45):
these kind of bully rent-a-copsand these were sort of
rent-a-cops who they had seen itall.
And so this one guy he musthave been like 250 or 300 pounds
a rent-a-cop and this womanthat I was with, who I mean
everybody was just really actingcrazy, they were screaming.
And this woman that I was with,I mean everybody was just
really acting crazy, they werescreaming.
(12:06):
And he went up to her and heput his arms around her and he
said sweetheart, everybody lovesyou, everything's going to be
OK.
And he actually went out intothe middle of the street this is
right after the concert whereeverybody is kind of going crazy
and he stopped this Volkswagenbus, just stopped them, just
(12:27):
stood in front of the bus and hewent up to the driver and he
said you're going to take them.
And he gave them the address ofthis hospital.
He didn't ask them, would you?
He just instructed that, and soyou know.
And so we went and you know shewas taken care of.
But I think that that was sortof you know, sort of you know,
(12:53):
sort of the ethos is that youknow, even in kind of crises
like that, that people weretaking care of each other.
Speaker 5 (12:57):
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(13:17):
at a crossroads, unsure whichpath to take?
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Crap, I have no idea where I am.
I just want to get to theconcert on time.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
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(13:55):
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Speaker 3 (14:14):
You know, my favorite one that I listen to every week
, I mean, is from August 6, 1971.
I didn't go but I had a secondgeneration reel-to-reel copy of
the tape and you know, it's justlike.
You know, garcia is just kindof talking to God, you know.
(14:35):
I mean, he's just, you know,and it's just so beautiful and
it's so powerful, and you justknow that people's lives were
changed that night and it waslike the dead could be.
The dead had plenty of offnights, but with their on nights
it was like it was just like sospectacular and, you know, like
(15:00):
nothing ever.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
I remember going to one of those you know early
concerts when it would haveeither been at the Carousel or
in the early days of theFillmore West, and you know it
was before.
You know, after a while itbecame like the dead could do no
wrong.
They could get up there andthey could do anything, and
(15:24):
people would kind of scream andyou know, applaud and you know
give them standing ovations, buteverybody was just kind of
sitting and I think probablythey were playing Dark Star, and
then Dark Star kind of movesinto St Stephen, and then
there's that moment in StStephen, you know it kind of
starts out gentle, and then theyjust crash into it and it was
(15:47):
just as one.
The audience just rose and justyou know, and it's like you
know the dead could just takeyou places, that you know that
only the dead can take you.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
That's like right after the lady finger, part Lady
finger, yeah.
Crashes right in, so you wereseeing him with Pigpen.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Oh yeah, absolutely For me there is no Grateful Dead
without Pigpen.
Pig pen, um, you know, I meanhe was.
Uh, yeah, I mean you know, youknow obviously love light but
but so many, I mean it was agreat I actually.
I know that it's sort ofcontroversial, but you know the
(16:29):
period when tom constantin umwhich I might be mispronouncing
his name, but when he came inaround the live dead period and
and so Pigpen sort of got movedoff the organ onto kind of the
(16:49):
congas and still played a reallyimportant role in singing.
But yeah, you know he was.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
He was the life of the party.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
I believe it.
It's funny, you know, I don'tthink I mean I don't know that
any of us knew that he was sick.
I don't think I don't know thatany of us knew that he was
really kind of getting sickduring all that period, and so
you know it was.
I mean he used to.
Really, you know, his organ wasvery centered, I mean he was,
(17:23):
it was a big place, a big partof the music, and obviously then
it became, it became less so.
And you know, after TomConstant, I guess that the next
keyboard player must have beenKeith Godshow who came in.
I remember the first time, Ithink it was probably the first
time that Keith Godshow playedwith them in San Francisco.
We went to the Harding Theaterand there's a CD of it now, you
(17:52):
know well, there's CDs ofeverything now, I guess.
But so the Harding Theater wasnot a usual music venue.
It was this kind of, you know,sort of movie theater, I guess,
on Divisadero in San Francisco,and so it was.
It would have been November,would have been November of 1971
(18:18):
.
It would have been November of1971.
And so I think that KeithGodshow began playing with them
just a brief period before that.
But it was interesting becauseI liked him.
But the dead at that.
It was kind of like he slowedthem down a little bit, that it.
(18:39):
It was almost like he was sortof having to still learn the
songs at that point.
There's a lot of songs.
That was before.
Yeah, there were a lot of songs, right.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
A lot of songs, yeah, but that was before.
That was before.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Donna began singing with them.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Did you consider going to the Wenderland shows in
74, the farewell shows orwhatever?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
You know, in 74, I was actually an Antioch College
student in Ohio, so I didn't Idid.
I did go to the.
All the last days of the filmwere kind of.
In fact you can see Bill Grahamwalking right by me in that
film.
I'm in line there and uh, andactually a bunch of my friends,
my, my, my then friend, kimMitchell, see her kind of her,
(19:37):
her beautiful blonde hippie facekind of fills the screen at one
point.
You know like this is just totell you about Jerry Garcia.
So, garcia, so it's the RowanBrothers are opening, and then
it's New Riders of the PurpleSage, and then it's the Rowan
brothers are opening, and thenit's new writers of the purple
(19:58):
sage, and then it's the gratefuldead, and so they're they're
going to play it's going to besix sets total, right At
Fillmore West.
And so Garcia plays pedal steelwith the Rowan brothers, garcia
plays pedal steel with newwriters of the purple sage, and
then Garcia plays lead with thegrateful dead, and then he
(20:19):
starts over and does it allagain.
So Garcia plays every singleset, from like 8.
Pm or eight, 30, whenever itstarted, till you know two or
three in the morning, and youknow it's just like you know the
boy loved music.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
What?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
can I say that's hungry?
Yeah, it's really yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
And you know, and hungry, yeah, it's really yeah,
and you know, and I mean he wasjust playing pretty much every
night of the week and I bragabout this to whoever will
listen.
But my favorite address of anyplaces I've ever lived is on
Hermit Lane in Kentfield, and soKentfield it's really like
within walking.
(20:56):
It's like five or ten minutesat the most from College of
Marin, but it's this beautifullittle kind of you know, dense
tree area.
It's a dirt road and there wereonly two houses there.
There was our house and therewere New Riders of the Purple
Sage.
I don't know if it was likeMarmaduke whose house it was,
but their rehearsal room, theNew Riders rehearsal room, was
(21:17):
their rehearsal room.
The new writers rehearsal roomwas their living room, and so it
was right next door to ours andso in my room kind of was on
that side of the house, so so Icould literally lie on my bed
and just kind of just hang outthere and listen to Jerry's
pedal steel come in through mywindow.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
Just hang out there and listen to Jerry's pedal
steel.
Come in through my window Wow,it was both the greatest place
to live, but also you know justmusically, is how lovely to live
right next door to them.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It was when I actually got, I was working with
the Marine Peace Coalition.
I was doing anti-war work atthe time, working with the Marin
Peace Coalition.
I was doing anti-war work atthe time.
This is the spring and summerand into the fall of 1971.
And so I went next door,knocked on the door and asked
(22:10):
them if they would do a benefitfor the Marin Peace Coalition
and this Marin County People'sFood Co-op that we were
organizing as sort of analternative to the capitalist
Safeway and other food stores.
And they said, yeah, sure, andyou know, go to our office and
here's, you know here's ourmanager is Sam Cutler and talk
(22:33):
to Sam and he'll set it up andtell him that.
We said yes, and so I did.
I went to the Grateful Dead'soffice in San Rafael and Garcia
was there and just kind ofhanging out and Bill Kreitzman
was there and the best soundsystem I've ever heard in my
life to this day was in thatoffice in San Rafael, which I
(22:55):
don't know, maybe it's possiblethey still have.
It was in that office in SanRafael, which I don't know,
maybe it's possible they stillhave it.
But, and so you know, we metwith Sam Cutler and set it up
and worked on the dates and gotit all arranged and ultimately
they said that they had aconflict and they backed out of
it.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
But anyway, it was my my moment in the Grateful
Dead's inner sanctum.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
That's a great moment .
That's a great moment.
It was a great moment and alsoit was a cool moment, you know.
I mean cause this, it was justkind of Jerry and me just kind
of sitting in in the office andhe's opening his mail and you
know these checks, whatever itwas.
You know $200 from the the, youknow Keystone, you know
Berkeley or whatever, and andand, but they were playing the
(23:40):
dead.
I mean, they were playing theirown stuff in there and it was
just, it was so crisp that youreally couldn't tell that they
weren't right there playing it.
I mean, I've never heard asound system that good before.
You know, they were alwayschanging and you know you see a
(24:03):
film like Grateful Dog.
You know Jerry and DavidGrissman, and you know they just
loved all music.
I mean they loved bluegrass,they loved blues, they loved
country and Western and and theother thing and this is, you
(24:24):
know this was, it was definitelytrue of the dead.
I mean they, they weren'ttrying, they weren't like
pedagogues, they weren't liketrying to educate their, their
you know their listeners, but insome ways they were, they were
giving us all a course in thehistory of american music and
and you know, and in some waysbill graham was the same.
You know, bill graham, he knewlike.
(24:44):
I can remember going to see thewho and I saw the who three
nights in a row and bill grahamhad woody herman's big band with
them, and you know and well,barely.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Yeah, no, we were, and we were sitting right in
front with the who too.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
And you know, and we'd go to see.
You know I can remember goingto see the airplane and Bill
Graham had Mongo, santa Maria,and the first and only time I
went to the original Fillmoreback in it would have been late
May of 68.
So it was the Yardbirds with, Iguess would Jeff Beck have been
(25:31):
playing lead or Jimmy Page.
I think it was Jimmy Page.
Your viewers can check that outthere, but anyway, so it was.
You know it's a beautiful dayand you know they played, but
Cecil Taylor was the opening.
Now, cecil Taylor, nobody, I canguarantee you, nobody other
than people who were coming tosee Cecil Taylor.
(25:53):
You know, I mean, this isavant-garde, this is like crazy
jazz.
And Bill Graham did that allthe time.
You know he had these old bluesguys who he would, you know,
bring on to play with.
He knew that.
You know that.
You know the Dead, or theAirplane, or the who, or you
(26:14):
know Led Zeppelin or whoever wasgoing to fill the place, so he
could, he could be an educatorpast that point, and he was.
He had very diverse.
You know, pentangle.
You know, I mean hippiesweren't going to go to see
pentangle.
I mean I wasn't.
I'll just speak for myself.
I wasn't going to go seepentangle, but I was delighted,
to you know, to be able to beeducated in that, in that kind
(26:36):
of way.
Yeah, I don't know, pentangleor cecil taylor?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I had to I able to be educated in that, in that kind
of way?
Yeah, I don't know.
Or Cecil Taylor, I had to, Ihad to write him down.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Oh yeah, Look, yeah, Look up Cecil Taylor and, and
you know and Pentangle, and youknow a lot of those like Burt
Yanch and, and who did he playwith?
But you know a lot of thosereally brilliant, brilliant
British acoustic guitar playerswho you know, a lot of those
really brilliant, brilliantBritish acoustic guitar players
who you know, the Garcia's andthe Clapton's, and all those
(27:05):
people were listening to themand learning from them, yeah,
and, and Bill Graham was, wasyou know kind of bringing them
on to to open, yeah, Did youever catch Miles?
Miles Davis.
Miles Davis, you know I didn'tI could have, and you know the
(27:32):
people I didn't see when I couldhave.
You know I didn't go to BB King, I didn't go to Albert King.
You know I was a little.
You know I started going justafter Otis Redding.
You know Bill Graham went allthe way to Georgia to bring Otis
Redding up to you know, to playin the Fillmore, and but that's
(27:55):
another thing too.
You know he was, you know hewould go out of his way to try,
and you know, expand the kind ofthe musical taste of the people
who you know, who were thoseaudiences, but also he was being
educated by.
You know this is interestingthat you know people like
Michael Bloomfield and NickGravenitis and well, even even
(28:20):
what's his name, steve Miller.
You know these Chicago bluespeople who ultimately came and
settled in the Bay Area.
Bill Graham was going to themand say, well, who do, who do I
bring?
Well, you bring Magic Sam, youbring James Cotton, you bring
all these guys.
And so Bill Graham just didthat and he, he let these, these
folks kind of be their, their,their tutors.
(28:43):
And I remember one of myfavorite concerts was the very
opening of the Fillmore West.
It was July 1968.
And the headliner was PaulButterfield and Paul Butterfield
Blues Band.
It was after Bloomfield hadleft.
And then the second band was agroup I had never heard of
(29:05):
called 10 years after.
And then, and then the openingwas, this group called truth,
and I'd never heard of truth.
But then then they were.
There was a substitute band thatI'd also never heard of, a
little band from great britaincalled fleetwood mac, and this
is when they were a blues band.
Right, it was before stevienicks and all that.
But know, it was Peter Green.
(29:26):
And and that's another exampleof how you know the blues,
people are telling Bill Graham,you know, fleetwood, peter Green
is like he's, he's big time,he's like he's an Eric Clapton
and you got to bring him.
And no, no, none of us had everheard of him.
But so again, that sort of thateducative role that Bill Graham
(29:47):
was playing, yeah, yeah, andyou know, and you know all those
seeds that got planted, I meanobviously all over the country,
but you know, in the Bay Area,talking about Bill Graham.
You know the Rolling Stonesshould have listened to Bill
(30:07):
Graham, that you know that theywanted to do the free concert in
in December of 1970, 69.
And Bill Graham didn't want anypart of it.
You know this, is this not notwell planned?
I, I'm, I'm not going to bepart of this.
The dead not to their creditwere going to be part of it in
(30:29):
the airplane and actually thestory gets told in different
ways.
But it may have been theairplane who suggested that
Hells Angels do security for theconcert.
But I went, I was going toschool in Stockton, so it was
just a short way away from theAltamont Speedway, and so, you
(30:52):
know, santana played and theairplane played and Flying
Burrito Brothers, who else?
And the dead were supposed toplay, but the dead just kind of,
you know, walked away from itand then, after the airplane
played, that was when the stones.
(31:13):
You know, they waited andwaited and waited and waited and
they wanted it to get dark sothat their lights would and
people had been there.
I mean, we'd been there sincelike six or seven in the morning
, I think, and it was just adisaster waiting to happen and
it happened big time.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I was just thinking about that when you were talking
about the three bands.
Two sets each, that's a longtime, not only for the band but
the people that are watching.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Also, yeah, good point.
And also, you know I don't knowif you so neither Winterland
nor you know Fillmore West.
They didn't have seats itwasn't like Fillmore East.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Fillmore East had seats.
I understand I've never been tothe Fillmore East, but we
didn't have any seats.
It was all.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
you sat on the hard dance floor On the beer floor.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
Well, whatever, yeah, and so floor on the beer floor.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Well, well, whatever, yeah, yeah, and so, um, and you
know, you would kind of rush inand you'd kind of get your your
seat, but then you would sit,you know, first set, second set,
third set, fourth set.
You know, all the way, all theway through through the evening.
But you know it was, you know wewere young and and uh, um, and
know we were willing to,whatever it was, and I think it,
(32:26):
I think it was two dollars andfifty cents to get in, I think,
to the carousel, I think, and Ithink Bill Graham might have
raised it to three or even threefifty, I can't remember, but
you know it still was reallyreasonable.
You know it still was reallyreasonable.
But you know the thing about,you know, I mean it was just I
(32:52):
thought that every place in thecountry, you know that this was
going on at the time, I didn't,you know, and because not only
did we have, not only did wehave, you know, the, the
Fillmore, and then you know, forthe, for the, if it was a big
band like, say, Led Zeppelin,would move over to to Winterland
for the weekend.
But you know there was also theAvalon and there were other,
(33:18):
you know there was, there were,you know, places in Marin County
and there was still the matrixI.
I saw Garcia there once at thematrix um, which, uh, you know
there's a, uh, there's a coupleof wonderful um, grace slick and
the great society um albumsrecorded at the matrix um before
she joined, uh, uh, theairplane um, but anyway, you
(33:44):
didn't realize you were livingin such a cultural and political
mecca at the time.
I said a little bit, but I didthink it was more widespread.
I mean, I knew that it wasn'tgoing on in Wyoming, let's say.
But and you know, and I wentdown in the summer of 68.
I went down to LA to spend timewith my good friend, Jim Green,
(34:10):
and Jim was a year younger, butwe went to the Whiskey, A Go-Go
to see Eric Burden and theAnimals a two drink minimum or
whatever.
And and then we went to, uh,the uh, Santa Monica civic
(34:30):
auditorium to see the who um,and that too was a different
scene, because, you know, therewere seats, you could sit in a
chair and watch them, which was,you know, for better for worse
so well, it was a, it was a.
yeah, it was a wonderful time toto be there and yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
You mentioned you worked for the or you worked
with a nonprofit.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Well, yeah, I mean back in the day, I mean I was, I
was working with the MarinePeace Coalition and you know, as
we were talking earlier, youknow, I think it bears, you know
, emphasizing that there was apolitical dimension to all of
this.
And I remember one timestanding in line at the Fillmore
and this would have been 68,because this guy had this
(35:20):
McCarthy for president button,and realizing, you know, you
could look at somebody, I mean,first of all, everybody who's
coming to these, you know peoplehave long hair, they, you know,
you know you know what theythink about.
You know legalization ofmarijuana, you know what they
think about the war and thedraft, and that, in fact, that
there was as imperfect and asweird and often sexist and and
(35:44):
sometimes racist and all as itwas, that there was this
counterculture, kind of brewing,this kind of, you know, defiant
movement, that and that themusic was a part of that and you
(36:12):
know, and there was a morepolitical part, like Country Joe
and the Fish, you know, was amore kind of left wing band, you
know that.
You know, feel like I'm fixingto die rag was, you know,
explicitly anti-war and in someless, you know, explicitly
political groups like, like theGrateful Dead, but you know, the
airplanes volunteers you know,and that the airplanes
volunteers you know, and that so, so, so I think it's important
(36:33):
to think about the music and theway in which it hooked in to a
broader kind of sense ofdefiance and social justice and
and peace in.
That was just, yeah, it was animportant piece and so that
there was a broader educationgoing on.
(36:55):
So as I was being pulled moreinto politics, I was also being
pulled more into this wholecounterculture at the same time,
more into this wholecounterculture at the same time.
So you gave me an opportunityto kind of plug the organization
that I work with.
I'm the curriculum editor forRethinking Schools magazine.
Rethinking Schools is aquarterly magazine, focuses on
(37:19):
critical issues in educationfrom a social justice standpoint
, and I also co-direct the ZenEducation Project, which some of
your viewers, listeners, may befamiliar with the book A
People's History of the UnitedStates by Howard Zinn.
It's sort of the most prominentcritical, you know, kind of
grassroots teach the truth aboutUS history book.
(37:42):
And so we offer free people'shistory curriculum for teachers
who want to teach outside thetextbook and that's sort of our
mission to provide that kind ofof resource and also we try to,
you know, we try to offer a wayfor teachers who want to connect
(38:04):
.
You know some of the socialjustice music work with that and
so we encourage people to.
You know you can just go to theZen Education Project and you
know, put in music and see thekind of the curriculum that
comes up.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Awesome.
Yeah, I'll put a link to thattoo, so people can check it out.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
I did the teaching guide for the Sun City video.
I don't know if you rememberLittle Steven, who was the lead
guitarist for E Street Band backin the 80s.
Do I have that record.
Yeah, you sure do.
Yeah, it's a wonderful recordand it was on kind of regular
(38:51):
play on MTV back in the day.
But this is a song that youknow.
Basically it was.
I'm not going to play Sun Citybecause during apartheid in
South Africa, the South African,the white regime was trying to
lure musicians, the same waythat Israel is trying to lure
(39:11):
musicians to offer legitimacytoday that the white South
Africans were trying to lure.
You know famous acts.
You know Rod Stewart playedthere, tina Turner played there,
turner played there and solittle Steven and got the song
(39:37):
together and got people to agreeto be part of this music video.
I'm not going to play Sun Cityand with Bob Dylan and Lou Reed
and Run DMC and Africa Bambadaand Ringo and Keith Richards and
Bono, and it was just.
You know it was an amazingthing.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
And after that you know, by and large nobody did
play Sun City because basicallythe whole progressive you know,
music movement, you know said no, this is not a cool thing we
don't offer.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
You know, miles davis was part of that.
Um, we don't want to, you know,lend our support to apartheid
in south africa.
And you know, and if you'reagain, if you're listeners and
viewers, you know, go back andlook at that.
I mean, miles davis is on itand um, it's, it's a whole album
too, and I think bono has asong on it.
Um, it's possible that keithrichards has a song on it, um,
(40:28):
but it was, you know, it wasreally um, it was produced by,
um, you know, by little stevenvan zandt, who you know, who did
so many, you know great thingsduring that period.
And of course, brucespringsteen is is is part of
that sun city piece too.
Bonnie rate don't want to forgetbonnie rate, she's on there
jackson brown, you know, andshe's another one, you know, we
(40:51):
were talking about kind of theeducative role of, of of
musicians, and bonnie rate,really, you know, she lifted up
so many african, american bluespeople and you know, just said,
just said, okay, you like me,you love what.
You listen to me.
You know, let's listen to theseother people too.
You know, let's listen to JohnLee Hooker.
(41:12):
You know, and, and so she wasalways about kind of honoring
you know.
You know where the music camefrom.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Right, so okay, so obviously you've got great taste
in music.
So what's something, what'ssomething you found lately
that's struck you as somethingthat the listeners should go out
and check out?
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Well, I'll tell you one.
You know Bombino, so I don'tknow if you've heard Bombino.
So I, I Bombino.
So I don't know if you've heardBombino, so I Bombino is from
North Africa and I think ofBombino is like the Jimi Hendrix
of North Africa, and so IBombino.
(42:01):
Well, actually I was going to goto the Portland Blues Festival
because I wanted to see LosLobos.
They were headlining this oneevening and Los Lonely Boys and
Bombino was sandwiched inbetween and I got a detached
retina I don't know, don't everget one because you have to lie
on your side for seven days, andso I couldn't go out anywhere.
(42:23):
But KBOO Radio give a littleshout out to KBOO Radio in
Portland have to lie on yourside for seven days, and so I
couldn't go out anywhere.
But I, but kabu radio give alittle shout out to kabu radio
in portland um, they, they, uh,uh.
You know they had the wholeblues festival live, and so I
was listening to bombino.
I thought what the hell is this?
I, you know, this is like musicI'd never heard before, and so
it's like sort of traditionalNorth African sound.
(42:47):
But it's just, but it's got,you know, deep blues, and you
know I just rock and roll too,and so yeah.
So listen to Bombino.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
All right, I'll check it out for sure.
Bill Bigelow, thank you so muchfor joining me.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
Thank you, thank you, you.
It's been a pleasure.
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