TFTL Ep 24 When Is The Next Tour? - 70's 80's 90's and Chimps!

When Bob Ingersoll describes his first Grateful Dead concert, you can almost feel the pulsing energy of the crowd and the transformative power of the music. This episode takes a wild ride with Bob, a chimp expert, and Deadhead, as he shares his life's tapestry woven with threads of passion for primates and the Grateful Dead. His stories transport us from his early college days to the emotional depth of his bond with Nim Chimpsky, a chimp he worked with closely. Bob's journey is not just about his own evolution but also about the heartbreak of losing his primate friends to medical research and how it steered him towards the vibrant embrace of the Deadhead community.

Imagine the thrill of chasing live concerts across the country, each show a unique snowflake in the blizzard of Grateful Dead fandom. Bob regales us with tales of close encounters with the band, the kinship formed with fellow fans, and the spontaneous drum circles that capture the essence of this cultural phenomenon. These memories underscore the shared experiences that resonate long after the final notes fade, like the story of Bob's mother donning a Dead-themed shirt years after being deeply moved by a performance, and his cousin's treasured ticket stubs that serve as portals to the past.

Fusing the kindred spirits of music and activism, Bob's narrative culminates in an exploration of compassion, from his vegan awakening to his tireless efforts in animal advocacy. This episode is not just an invitation to reminisce but a call to action, encouraging listeners to embrace the legacy of the Grateful Dead in their own lives and join the ongoing quest for animal welfare and environmental justice. Bob's dedication to both the music and the cause invites us to consider how our own passions can ignite change and foster a better world, all while keeping the spirit of the Grateful Dead alive and well.

Oklahoma Primate Sanctuary - okprimates.org
Oliver and Friends Farm Sanctuary - oliverandfriends.org

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Tales from the Lot, episode 24,.
When is the next tour?
My guest is Robert Ingersoll.
He's here to talk Seeing theDead in the 70s, 80s, 90s and
beyond, nim Chimpsky and theProject Nim documentary and much
more.
Here we go.
Welcome to Tales from the Lot.
This is Will.
My guest this week is deadheadactivist and all-around awesome
person.
He's coming from San Francisco.

(00:21):
It's Bob Ingersoll.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hey, thanks Will.
I appreciate the opportunity tobe here and tell my stories
from the lot.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
You're in San Francisco, but that's not where
you're from originally, right?
Where are you from, born andraised at?

Speaker 2 (00:37):
No, I'm actually from Boston and my dad was in the
military, so we did a lot oftravel international as well.
As you know, we've lived in abunch of states Florida, north
Carolina, new Jersey,massachusetts a couple of times,
and Oklahoma.
And then, when I turned 18, Igot drafted.

(00:58):
So I, instead of going into thearmy, I joined the Air Force.
And one thing led to another,and when I got out of the
military I had met a girl fromOklahoma.
So I moved to Oklahoma in 1975to go to undergraduate school of

(01:26):
school.
I met a guy that was teachingsign language to chimpanzees,
which turns out to be Washoe,the first signing chimp, and so
I got.
I was pretty enamored with that, as you know.
And I mean this is a fantasticthing, I mean it really turned
out to be not something that Ireally knew where it was going,
but as soon as I met him, I youknow, first day of class, I

(01:47):
walked up to him after class andI asked him hey, can I work
with you?
And at that point he wasn't asinternationally hugely famous
like he turned.
You know, like he ended up afew years later.
So he allowed me to meet thechimps and a couple of days
later I met a couple ofchimpanzees named Allie and

(02:08):
Vanessa, and I was, I wanted tobe an orthopedic surgeon and,
like everybody goes to college,they want to be a doctor or a
lawyer, right?
And I was 22 years old at thetime.
And so so I went out to meetthese chimps and the moment I
interacted with those two chimpsit was like, wow, I don't know
what this is called, but this iswhat I want to do.

(02:30):
And I mean I knew that chimpswere my people in the weirdest
kind of way.
I'm not real.
I wasn't really an animalperson or any of that sort of
thing, animal person or any ofthat sort of thing, but there
was something about those twochimps and then, as it turns out
, chimps in general, that I hadsome.

(02:51):
I don't know, I don't want tocall it magic, but I understood
them, they understood me and wegot along well and although
chimpanzees are horribly nothorribly, but they are very
dangerous and nothing to messaround with but for some reason
I knew how to handle chimps andso for a couple of years, from
75 to 77, I worked with a bunchof different chimps and then in

(03:19):
September of 1977, I met NimChimpsky, who, who is a sign
language chimp, that's, you know, pretty famous.
Now there's a movie and a bunchof books and stuff.
I will sing the movie actuallyand I I became, like the movie
says, one of Nim's, or Nim's,best friend.

(03:42):
At the same time, in Septemberof 1977, I knew about the dead.
I had Working Man's Dead andyou know American Beauty and all
the albums, but I'd never seena show.
You know so, and I think everydeadhead out there that you know
, when they went to their firstshow it was like something in
their brain clicked, just kindof like the chimps did for me.

(04:03):
And I went to my first show inOctober of 77 at the Lloyd Noble
Center.
I think it's one of the Dick'spicks, actually it might be
number three, but it's the LloydNoble Center show in October of
1977.
Actually, I have it writtendown here it's the 11th of
October 77.
And at that show I was likemost people that go to their

(04:28):
first Dead show.
I was like holy cow.
This is way not the album.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
A bit of a culture shock too.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, indeed, and it's 1977.
I don't think the Dead wereplayed any better in any year
than 1977.
So I walked out of there withmy molecules rearranged Right,

(04:58):
but at the same time I waspretty focused on the.
But I met more started tradingtapes between 77 and 81 or so,
when I went to my second deadshow at the Zoo Amphitheater I
think it was 81.
, yeah, 81.
And then again had my moleculesrearranged.

(05:21):
I think it was the last deadshow that wasn't sold out.
My molecules rearranged I thinkit was the last dead show that
wasn't sold out.
And uh, it was, uh, it was amagical experience and uh, it
was kind of like knowing that Iwas a chimp.
I knew I was a deadhead at thatpoint, right, and so, uh, still

(05:42):
pretty occupied withundergraduate school and
graduate school.
So again next year, 82, and then85, saw the next two dead shows
at the zoo amphitheater.
And then in 85, unfortunatelythe chimps that I worked with
had been sold to medicalresearch, which you saw in the

(06:02):
movie, and I was kind of lost,looking for somewhere to plug in
and I know a lot of youdeadheads out there when you
went to your first parking lotor went to your first show.
The community speaks to you,not just the band itself or the
music, but there's somethingabout the whole community that

(06:22):
is attractive, especially whenyou're looking for a family or
some family connection.
And in 85, we started touringand I learned how to tie dye,
because you have to have moneyto be able to tour.
And that was before everybodyin the parking lot was selling

(06:43):
something.
And that was before everybodyin the parking lot was selling
something.
So we a friend of mine namedSean O'Brien we went on our
first tour and went to AlpineValley, went to Minneapolis, did
St Louis, a bunch of shows andsold tie dye, the Rosemont
Horizon, and met incrediblepeople, met photographers, you

(07:06):
know had come up to us.
My friend Sean was like dreadat the time and so his dreads
were like major.
And, and you know, this ladywalked up to us and said hey,
man, you are so interestinglooking, can I take your picture
?
And we ended up letting her doit and then she sent us, you
know, photographs back.
Her do it.

(07:27):
And then she sent us, you know,photographs back and and, uh,
and it was.
It was just a fun thing to doat the same time, because my
chimp friends were sold tomedical research.
I I was also doing, uh,newspaper articles and trying to
get in magazines and ontelevision and stuff to promote
the plight of the signing,because Nim Chimps is pretty
famous and so 60 Minutes and abunch of people, like you know,

(07:50):
shows like that nationalinterest in his plight, and so
when we went on tour we alsohanded out information about the
chimps.
So we had fun in the parkinglot selling tie-dyes and stuff.
More importantly, we're handingout information about my chimp
friends.
So, uh, and that went on untilabout, I don't know about, 1988,

(08:15):
when I met who would become mywife, bell, who's sitting right
here, and in 1988 we were doinga medieval show, a medieval fair
, and selling tie, selling tiedye and handing out information
about the dead, and I mean aboutthe chimps and of course we
were talking about by then wehad been on tour and so all of
our friends were deadheads andwe were trading tapes and all of

(08:36):
that.
Right, yeah, older deadheadsthan me, I'm kind of old, but
there were at the time, uh,shaman that had tapes and knew
had all these connections andand actually knew the band and
and things like that.

(08:59):
I did see the evolution at timesI I saw brent turn into to
Bruce Hornsby Actually Hornsbywas there, might have been, so I
don't know exactly what wasgoing on, but Hornsby showed up
a couple of times when Brent wasstill in the band before he
died, and so I I witnessed thattransition and although it was I

(09:22):
mean of course it's not pig pen, you know, because literally
the Grateful Dead, as I readhistorically now I know all this
stuff it was his band.
I mean even Jerry thought itwas Pigpen's band and I get it.
I've heard all those tapes.
I hear the complete differencein the way the dead are after

(09:43):
pig and and before, you know,when he was in the band, it was
just a different band, uh, butthe uh, the nucleus of what the
dead became when Jerry, kind ofwithout taking over, took over
Cause I I really think that Bobwears it as, like Jerry says, it

(10:04):
was an insanely great front man.
I mean, he did really well andI don't know if I'm pretty sure
that Pig and Bob got along.
But I don't think there couldhave been the Grateful Dead
after Pigpen without someone whowas as powerful as pig pen in

(10:27):
terms of being a front man, andI, you know, I gotta say I think
bob weir is freaking amazing.
I mean, I, I've seen over 150shows and you know I never
walked out of there going, oh,that sucked, I never want to
come back.
I mean, there might have beensome shows that were, you know,
shaky, but there was always oneor two songs are like, oh man,

(10:48):
that morning it was amazing orwhatever.
So, so for me, I get that.
I mean it's going on now.
People are like, oh no, I hateDead and Company.
I'm like, yeah, I've seen about25 Dead and Company shows.
I'm going to the sphere and I'mlooking forward to it.
Uh, I mean, and I, I see thedifferences, you know I

(11:12):
appreciate those.
I hear the tapes.
I've got every one of the youknow, uh, dave's picks and I've
got 3 000 hours of cassettetapes and all that.
But but really it's the musicand and the interpretation of
the music I think is is, uh isup to the musicians.
I'm not a musician, you knowwhat I mean, and I want to give

(11:34):
them that leeway there.
Plus, they're evolving andthey're older.
Uh and so I mean I understandthat, that sentiment that, uh,
screw them.
I don't think you know.
I mean I understand thatsentiment that screw them.
I don't think you know.
I mean it's not something thata lot of my friends and I don't
talk about.
I mean, but my friends, westill go to the shows, you know,
and we still have a blast.

(11:55):
I mean we saw the Dead Companyshows at the Gorge here recently
and then here in San Francisco.
What five shows, I think fiveor six, and and the energy was
there.
It was well, you can watch thefilms and the clips on YouTube.
That San Francisco show wasamazing, I mean, and it really,

(12:19):
you know, I guess that's apersonal taste or whatever, but
I, I don't want to live in thepast, although I, I loved it.
It was great.
Jerry was you know jerry?
I mean, what can you say?
I mean I have jerry stories.
You know crazy ones.
You know, in 19, what was it?
Bell 93, 92, something likethat in the boston garden.

(12:40):
We, uh, and we were slightlyaltered and happy.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
And after the show.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
I mean we're like we were blown away and the show was
so good we were literally blownaway.
The Boston Garden empties out.
It's just me and Belle and wehad moved over and sat down in
some seats behind the stage tokind of you know, because we had
to get back to my aunt anduncle's house, which meant going
out and getting on a trolley tothe Green Line Green Line to

(13:08):
the.
I'm from Boston, so I know myway around, and but we were like
well, man, that's going to be ahassle.
And so we sat there, you know,trying to bring our molecules
back together, and uh, and thenthe, a sliding curtain opens up

(13:32):
and then jerry walks out andthere's nobody in the place
except bell and I and jerry, andboth bell and I were like jerry
, like that, and he looks up andhe smiles like from ear to ear
and, uh, waves, he's got thebriefcase too.
So we're like tripping, you knowwell, literally and
figuratively, and uh and so uh,and he waves, doesn't say a word

(13:55):
, smiles carefully, walks downthe steps and goes out and bell,
and I just looked at each otherand goes, wow, that was cool.
That kind of stuff, you know,it's those kind of moments and I
know everybody that's on yourshow at least, and more so than
even some of the stories we havethat are like that.

(14:16):
They're like the moments thatare part of your life that you
reminisce back to and and and itall kind of fits together.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
So uh, a lot of people talk about it.
It's like that their life isthis, this line, and and then
they go to a grateful dead showand suddenly it's going this way
, like there's that, andeverybody can mark that point
where their life changed.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
You know, we all know when that happened, what song
was playing or whatever momentit was right, and then, after
you get home from tour, all youcan think about is getting on
the grave of dead hotline andwhen is the next tour?
When does it start?
When do we send in our mailorder and all that?
It was something to lookforward to.

(15:02):
You know.
You come back to the grind.
You do what you got to do.
You know, I mean and I hear thisfrom I'm into Billy Strings
right now, and so I and theBilly Strings scene is very
reminiscent of the Grateful Deadscene in terms of the energy
and the love of the scene andthe music, and all that from the
fans, the young fans and peoplelike us.

(15:25):
We pick up on the, thesimilarities between what's
going on with billy and whatwent on with the dead, because
it's very similar, because it'sabout the music, you know, and
and I think that billyappreciates that and I and and
we you know we loved touring andgoing to multiples.
You know our friends, ourfamily and some of our friends

(15:47):
would be like dude, you've seenhim like 85 times.
I mean, why do you do that?
And and it's hard to explain tosomeone that has only been to
one show or whatever that nowit's different every night, and
then the peripheral experiencesaround the show itself are
different.
And then, of course, after afew years, you know people that

(16:09):
you've met on tour that youcan't wait to see again, and and
and.
That has happened to us over.
I still have friends that I meton tour that are still my
friends, that are like myregular circle of friends living
in my town or anything.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
But definitely when there's like there's nothing
I've looked forward to more thanthe start of tour, like like
the anticipation for knowingthat I'm about to go see 10
shows in a row or whatever.
Like right that feeling, atthat time, nothing uh greater
than that that I, that I've seen.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Oh, I totally, I totally agree, and we would, uh,
we, we cherish that because, uh, every now and again you'd walk
into a show and from beginningto end it would be like, oh my
God, you know, and it, yeah, Imean some of those Alpine Valley
shows in the mid eighties 84,five, six, seven, eight, 89.

(17:02):
I went to all of those, uh, andgot magnificent seats.
I was on the third row once,adam, back in the day you could
bring your actual camera into ashow, and I had a bunch of nice
camera.
Equipment was a little older,you know, so I had a nice canon
camera with big lenses and stuff.
So I on the third row, I'm likeyou can see jerry like looking

(17:23):
at you, his eyebrows moving andshit you know, it was.
I mean, it was like the audiencewas part of the band and the
band say this.
And so I, I'm sitting thereblissing and I, I pulled up, I
had a big lens and I put it onmy camera and pulled it up, and
jerry looked at me and, and inthe middle of the song, he

(17:43):
shakes his head.
No, and so I'm like, oh, I'vedisappointed jerry, damn it.
And so I put the camera down, Itook the big lens off because
you could take it off and putthe smaller lens on, you know,
quickly, and then I lifted itback up with the small lens and
jerry goes like this, and thenhe poses.
You know it's like and uh, it'sthose kind of moments and I know

(18:05):
you probably heard a millionstories like that, but it was
that, the camaraderie betweenthe audience and the band, the
understanding of the nuances ofwhat's going on on stage.
I don't know, I say it in thefilm actually it was.

(18:35):
Except for Nim, the best timesof our lives were at dead shows
and in the parking lot and likeat the laundromat in Akron, Ohio
, Right, Because during thatAkron show at the Rubber Bowl,
during that tour, it rained alot and our clothes were oh God,
it was a mess and my friendSean and I were camping right so
we went to a laundromat, likeon the day off in Akron and ran
into a couple of like three oldladies that were in doing their

(18:57):
laundry, right, and we look likedeadheads, right, long haired,
red, you know, crazy clothes,guatemala pants, all that stuff,
right, skateboards and andthese ladies were like what's
your, what you know?
nicely, they were very politeand really nice.
Like what do you got?
Why are you here?
And told them all about thedead and the, the rubber ball

(19:19):
where the dead were playing.
These ladies were like, oh, letus help you do your laundry,
you know, and it was like we metold ladies in akron that had
nothing to do with the dead,that that got, you know, got
some pleasure from seeing ushaving a good time out like in
america.
You know what I mean.
We're from oklahoma I meanthat's where our home bases were

(19:42):
at the time and and it was thetom petty opens and dylan is,

(20:06):
you know, in tom petty's band orwhatever, and uh I, I don't
know, I just personally back inthose days I was way more into
just the dead and didn't need tohave an opening band or any of
that.
And some of those we went to the, you know we went to shows like
the Rainforest Benefit in NewYork City.
But myself personally I justprefer straight up two or three

(20:30):
set dead show, like a New Year'sshow or whatever.
But those were anomalies, thoseshows with Tom Petty and all
that.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
I didn't see a lot of those, but I did see one where
sting was the opener.
That was his band was wasreally good.
I'm a I'm a Vinnie Caliutadrummer fan and and did you see
the one?
In Vegas, Uh no.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Uh, which one?
Oh, with the dead.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Uh no.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
I saw him like Buckeye Lake, like buckeye lake
and soldier field.
Oh yeah, yeah, I didn't see thesoldier field, but we went to
buckeye lake a couple of times.
We might have skipped the skim,you know, because we're in the
parking lot selling tie dye,right?
So sometimes we wouldn'tnecessarily go in early or
whatever.
But uh, we did see them in invegas a couple of times with.
Uh, who was that?
No, no, steve Winwood, Ibelieve.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
Good, traffic yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
That was another one of those parking lot scenes
after the show.
A lot of people are, you know,not exactly all together after a
show it's like whoa, where arewe?
And I had a Volkswagen van,like a lot of my friends and the
pop top.
You know I fit thestereotypical deadhead.
You know stickers on the backof the car.
We got pulled over severaltimes by the police and I was so

(21:53):
paranoid.
And I can tell you, in SouthCarolina we had, we had an
interesting interaction.
We were going, actually I gavea talk at the International
Primate Protection League andthen we were going to Atlanta.
You know, because we planned it, we're like, oh, we'll go to
IPPL and give the talk, thenwe'll drive to Atlanta and see
the dead shows.
Well, in South Carolina I drivein the van and it's got like

(22:17):
all kinds of stickers on theback, mostly dead, and cop, car,
state trooper, comes up andcomes up and around us and, you
know, surveys us, and then wecome over a hill and there's two
more, and then they come andyou know, of course they pull us
over and right and, uh, mytaillight was out.
That was their excuse and itwas out, it was, but I had a
bulb.

(22:38):
So I said, well, I've got anextra bulb.
But they're like by then they'relike, no, we're gonna search
your car and I bunches of stuff,our and stuff, because by that
time we weren't selling tie dye,belle and I were just more
touring and the business, theInternational Primary Protection
League, talk about NIM and thisand that, and, and they went
through all the bags, threw allthis stuff out, you know, pulled

(23:00):
my pants down, looking in thewaistband and Belle's a court
reporter.
So she's like you can't do this.
And they're like, hey, we gotthe guns and the badges, we can
do whatever we want.
Fortunately we had no drugs.
They could find nothing to bustus for and they ultimately let
us go.
We went to the first rest areapulled over, I fixed the

(23:23):
taillight.
Then we went to the shows restarea pulled over, I fixed the
taillight.
Then we went to the shows,which were fabulous three days,
but it was a little unnerving,you know so those kind of things
, and I'm sure lots of peoplehad even worse experiences than
that, you know.
So, that was minor, relativelyspeaking.
But in Vegas, in the parkinglot, I went out to my van and

(23:44):
wouldn't start and I knew whatwas wrong.
The coil was messing up and soI couldn't really think.
We had like five people with usand I had some.
We sold bumper stickers and abunch of other things like that,
so I had all the people in thevan get in the driveway to the
uh, to the silver bowl, you know, people going out and so, hold,

(24:09):
you know selling stickers, atthe same time identifying the
volkswagen vans that were goingout and going.
Hey, man, you got a coil for a88 van and and, uh, lo and
behold, I mean I knew this wouldhappen because I've been on
tour for eight or nine years.
By then I knew there were someresourceful deadheads out there

(24:30):
that were driving really oldbuses and stuff.
And, uh, this one dude pullsover and goes yeah, man, I got
like eight of them, you know,and so we went through that and
it was so cool because hestopped, pulled over, helped me
install it and it was a twoprong instead of a three prong
coil, but the third prong wasjust the ground, so we just

(24:57):
plugged up the hot and the coldto the coil and it worked.
And so I'm like hey man, howmuch, because they're usually
like 60, 80 bucks, right, youknow, catch me some other time.
And it was that.
That's the kind of thing thatdrew us to keep on coming back.

(25:17):
You know, because we met somany great people in Minneapolis
.
We met a couple of people thatwe hadn't had a shower in like
four days, and it was like 10 inthe morning and they're like
hey, you guys, we, we live rightaround the corner, you want to
come to our house and take ashower?
And we're like really, we wentto these people's houses and
took a shower.

(25:38):
We we've stayed at Daryl andRose.
We, I, daryl and Rose we metthese people in Alpine actually,
and a couple of years later weran into them and we were in
Washington DC and they invitedus to stay at their house for a
couple of shows and you knowthey were like serious deadheads
, like we were.

(25:59):
You know it were those kind ofevents that really kept us going
.

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Speaker 2 (28:04):
So we just had a fabulous time.
I mean, I took my mom to a showat Bayfront Center in 1988 at
the Bayfront Center in StPetersburg, and the show I took
her to, the last song wasMorning Dew, and the spotlight
came and I believe this is onYouTube.

(28:25):
You can watch the whole show.
And and Jerry did one of thosetear jerking morning dues with
the spotlight just on him, and Iturned and looked at my mom,
tears rolling down her face, youknow, and she's wearing a tie
dye dress and she had helped mesell die all day, went off and

(28:46):
walked around in the parking lot, came back with Dead Base 2.
You know because I told her,yeah, they've got this book out
there, it's called Dead Base 2,.
You know because I told her,yeah, they've got this book out
there, it's called Dead Base andit has all the songs.
You know because.
So you know, my mom wasinterested in what the hell I
was doing, you know, when I was20, whatever years old, and so
when I went and took a breakwhile she was, I came back with

(29:08):
a Grateful Dead California shirtthat had a frog on it.
My mom collected frogs.
My mom wore that shirt all thetime when I visit, people come
up and go.
Your mom wears that GratefulDead shirt all the time.
She's the hit around here.
You know that's awesome.
Yeah, you know it's that kindof thing that you can.
I took cousins and friends, youknow that never experienced it.

(29:33):
You know, one of my cousinswere at the show at the boston
garden and and she's like firstof all it's they hadn't even
turned the lights out and peopleare like reefing up, you know,
and right and the whole place issmoke filled and she's like the
governor's here.
What's what is going on?
There's a governor ofmassachusetts tom's a deadhead,
you know and so the.
Kennedys are all deadheads andso I'm like, yeah, it's kind of

(29:57):
a different world.
My cousin's name is Marty andwe had fabulous seats and she
now she has those ticket stubsframed in her house on a Boston
Garden poster and next to whereit says you know all the things
that go on at the garden, theyhave the Grateful Dead on that
poster, and so she has hertickets attached right to the

(30:19):
Grateful Dead it's.
You know those kind of things.
But mostly for us anyway, wasthe music you know and the love
of the music that could make yousmile and have dance like you
just can't not dance and or haveemotional reactions so deep

(30:42):
that at the first note of thesong it just brings tears to
your eyes, like morning dew, forexample.

(31:07):
Uh, it's still a blue for me ofmine.
That said, you know, because Ihey you want to come to the dead
, I got some extra.
Oh, no, next time.
You know, now, when I see thosesame people are here in the
last 15 years since jerry's beengone or so, uh, they're like
man, I wish I would have went tothat show like, yeah, I've had
some friends like that that uhat the time weren't, weren't
real into it, uh, and werereluctant to go.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
They were doing other things, they were doing life
things, uh, and then just haverecently come back and said oh,
you know, we should have wentwith you because we've recently
discovered just how good thismusic is right and now
everybody's like.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
It's like on television shows and everybody
you know talking about howeverybody was a dead head, you
know, and all this you know.
So, yeah, it's, uh, it'ssomething that I I'm really glad
that we didn't miss out on.
We, uh, we had a great timelike.
This shirt, for example, is ais a shirt that a friend of ours
in oklahoma did.

(32:02):
Her name was ann and this is a.
Bonner springs what's the sandsprings June 24th and 25th 1991.
I've seen Mickey with thisshirt on playing at another show
.
So and I believe, sent, youknow, obviously a bootleg shirt,

(32:23):
but pretty damn good bootleg.
And it glows in the dark, so itwas that, that culture that you
know, and artists, and so it wasthat culture that you know and
artists and other musicians thatappreciated all of the dead.
You know, because go to a show,you're going to hear other
people playing in the parkinglot before and after.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
That's what I miss so much.
What's that?
That's what I miss so much isthe drum circles.
Mainly, I mean just being ableto walk through and hear
different ones coming in, likeat the beginning of that
infrared roses album, forinstance, where it's like
somebody walking through the lotand you hear like trucking
coming out of somebody's van andthe drum circle starts
happening and then the guy thatwalks by your ear it says doses,

(33:07):
you know, like all of thatstuff.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah indeed it was a place.
It.
The parking lot scenes now areKind of out, so huge and not
quite as well, I don't know.
I guess why not when we weregoing to shows.
That Until the end, when it gota little nutty and there was,

(33:34):
you know, like in Orlando, therewere so many people showed up
to the show that they weretrying to get tear gas and you
know, and so there's good andbad to that.
Too many people into the, youknow, and you were around at the
end.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
I was at Deer Creek when they broke down the wall
and saw what could happen.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, we were at those shows we actually our last
shows were in, weren't theythose shows, the ones that were
in Right before they went live?
Yeah, right before that, thelast shows before.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
Chicago yeah, that was the last ones.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
Friends of ours had extra tickets to Chicago and we
could have gone, but it justthere was some foreboding or
something in the air and weweren't feeling it, you know,
and Jerry looked terrible, andso we declined, I mean, and now
we're sometimes we're like, oh,we should have went to those

(34:32):
shows and I'm like, nah, I don'tthink so.
It was just so hard.
That tour was very difficult.
Amongst our deadhead friends itwas almost as if and I can
remember conversations like ishe going to die right on stage?
You know that kind of thing.
So it was.
It was difficult to see andwatch, because we loved that guy

(34:56):
, you know, and I think a lot ofus wished we could have said
something or done something, but, as steve parish and all the
close dead people say, there wasnothing we could do.
I mean, we tried, you know, butyou're not, you couldn't.
Plus, I don't know, I've been,you know, I've had my times with

(35:22):
drugs, you know it.
Uh, it can grab you and ifyou're not, you know, able to
step back and uh, take a deepbreath and, you know, go, I
don't want to die here.
Uh, it could.
It's just imagine if Jerry wasstill alive today.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Yeah, I mean thinking about that.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Well, yeah, but I mean it is what it is and the
history of it all is what it isnow, and I'm just glad we
participated and had so muchdamn fun, because that was, you
know, jerry said it I'm out hereto have a good time, you know,
and fun is the name of the game.
And he certainly did give us anopportunity to have a lot of
fun.

(35:58):
And I'm most grateful to him,the band, all the ticket people
you know that we sent ourenvelopes to to get our tickets
the roadies, all those.
Actually, a few years ago,bonhams, an auction house here
in town, did Ramrod's estatesale and sold one of Jerry's

(36:24):
Travis Bean guitars.
It sold for like $400,000 and abunch of other stuff and
Ramrod's mandolin was in thatsale and you can imagine that,
uh, jerry had played thatmandolin right and the the
estimate was pretty low.

(36:45):
Uh, and at the time my wife hasa good job and we we have, you
know, a ample amount of moneyand and so we're sitting there
and she goes go ahead, bid.
So I'm bidding on ramrodsmandolin.
Just bidding is cool you know,we're in a room full of people
that are bidding for two hundredthousand dollar items and stuff
, you know, and uh, I got tolike 850 bucks and the guy goes,

(37:10):
he hits the hammer and I win.
I'm like whoa, holy cow.
So we, we have ramrods, mandolinand, and you know, wow and of
course, hundreds of posters andand, as you probably know, I
owned a grateful dead storeduring that time that two guys
tied eyes turned into a storecalled jungle gems and we uh, we

(37:33):
sold grateful dead merchandisestuff and and was it officially
licensed?
oh, yeah, yeah, we, we dealtwith the band uh so we, uh, we
got all the band related stuffposters and this and that,
shirts and and all that liquidblue stuff by that that time
liquid blue by the not early 90sthey had pretty much.

(37:55):
You know, we met those liquidblue guys in like 85 or 86 at
the Rosemont Horizon when theywere first starting and I traded
something to them for thethere's a Rainforest Action
Network Panther tie-dye thatthey had one of their first
shirts and I still have itactually and that evolved
because their stuff is qualityand iconic yeah, yeah, really.

(38:19):
And so we, uh, we sold all thatstuff.
We didn't sell drug imagery, nopot leaves or any of that stuff
, no pipes, and it was like adead show, a dead store with gu
stuff and African stuff.
But none of that, because youknow behind the scenes, as you,
you've seen the film, so youknow what we were all about.

(38:39):
Uh, we also sponsored the DavidGans grateful dead hour for
three or four years, so we kindof indoctrinated Oklahomans into
the grateful dead.
I still have friends that comeup to me in Oklahoma and go oh
my God, I miss Jungle Timbs andthe Dead Hour and all that.
And I'm like, well, you know, Idon't really miss retail, but

(39:01):
some of those things I miss.
And then they're like, well,dude, we've got tapes, we've got
your commercial, and I'm like,yeah, so do I, because I was a
paper at the time.
So, but but we incorporated ouryou know, our fun life, the
Grateful Dead touring and andthe music and all of that, into
the activism.
And I mean, I liked GratefulDead stuff, the shirts and all

(39:23):
of that, and and what better wayto get somebody to come in and
listen to what you've got to sayabout saving chimps and and the
chimpanzees that I worked withat the university and, uh, you
know we played the grateful deadin there and we we always had
great bootlegs and stuff.
So people come in to just tochit chat, you know, just to
come and talk.
You know, and you mentionedinfrared roses we play.

(39:46):
We got that when it came outand played it in the store.
That that is, that is sometrippy stuff, yeah.
So uh, we sold.
We actually sold some music inthere as well.
So, uh, and we saw widespreadpanic and dark star orchestra
and you know several other bands, things, uh and uh.
And had my employees talk aboutour activism.

(40:11):
Because during that period oftime was when I was actually at
the black beauty ranch, whichyou saw in the film and some of
that stuff, the the stuff thatwas at the black beauty ranch,
my wife bell here she shot mostof that, like the scene where
nim is pushing that barrelaround.
That was bell on camera and Imean we rolled in there not
knowing what was going to happenand I handed her my, handed her

(40:32):
my stereo video camera, sonyvideo camera that you know they
got nice by 91 or 92.
And I showed her how to work itreal quick.
And as we're driving down thedriveway, that van, in the that
you see the little wheel stickerand Jerry face of Jerry.
That was my van, I mean themovie is out of sync a little

(40:57):
bit.
But I handed it to her and said,hey, film until they tell you
to stop.
And then, when they tell you tostop, keep filming, you know
when they walk away.
And fortunately they just letus film.
And you see where I met Nim forthe first time and he runs back
and forth and then we're bothlike whoa is that, you know?
And then you know it was like,it was like an old, old friends,

(41:20):
so uh, the name of the film.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
It's, uh, it's project nim yeah, that's, that's
it I, I gave it a viewing andit's uh, it's amazing, it's it's
a little bit sad, it's a littlebit funny.
Um, it's, uh, it's amazing.
It's a little bit sad, it's alittle bit funny.
It's definitely enlighteningand yeah, I can't say enough.
I recommend it to anybody todefinitely view this and the

(41:45):
work that you do.
In it.
You definitely see therelationship between you.
There's a few people that havea relationship with N, with them
before you come along and then,when you come along, you can
see the difference and it's andit's like, it's like Han and
Chewy or something I don't know,but the way you like it really

(42:06):
came across a difference.
And you know, documentaries aremade, however they're made, and
the viewpoint is whoever'smaking the documentary,
obviously, but uh, but you coulddefinitely see that there was a
connection between you twospecifically well, I appreciate
that.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
I I do think that it we, uh we'd been approached a
lot by other people to do, youknow, films and documentaries
about my relationship with nim,but we we resisted that for a
long time.
And then a woman namedElizabeth Hess came along and
wrote a book called Project NIMHand I participated in that.
Well, first of all, I likeElizabeth and I knew that she

(42:44):
was going to do a good job and Iknew she was going to write the
book anyway and so I wanted toparticipate.
And then, shortly after thebook came out and I believe what
19, no, no, 2008, I believe iswhen the book came out and very
shortly after that, two AcademyAward winning producer named
Simon Chin, from the UK, who didman on Wire and Searching for

(43:08):
Sugar Men, amongst other thingsExtraordinarily talented
producer and really awesome dude.
We're like friends now.
Actually, about two and a halfyears ago we were in London to
do a book release.
I've just recently written acouple of books and the first
book.
We were doing a book releaseparty and we made it so that

(43:31):
Billy Strings shows and the bookstuff happened at the same time
Coincidentally, not really, butwe went to a Billy show and I
contacted Simon.
I'm like, hey, simon, we gotsome extra tickets, you want to
come?
So Simon came and saw Billy andhe even said, hey, what label
is he on?
And I'm like he's on Warner, Ithink.
Oh, I've got to deal withWarner, so who knows?

(43:54):
But, but he loved Billy and but, more importantly, back to
Project NIMH.
And so I said, well, I don'tknow what about James Marsh,

(44:16):
who's the director?
And he did Theory of Everythingand man on Wire.
So we went to see man on Wire,like a couple of weeks or a
month or so before it won theAcademy Award, and Bell and I
were like these guys want tomake a movie about yeah, so
they're extremely talented.
And we knew that they were.

(44:37):
They were the guys.
And then we, you know, we sortof negotiated.
It was more like a handshake,friendly conversation, and I
knew they were.
You know, I'm like you guys aregoing to be the one I'm.
Actually James Marsh has beenin the set right here while we
negotiated the deal and and it'sa, I think, is it Rotten

(44:57):
Tomatoes?
Is that what it's called,rotten Tomatoes?
Some 17th best documentary ofall time, apparently so, and I
get, I get letters and emailsfrom all over the world.
Once got emails from Iran, fromyoung female students at the
University of Tehran that saidto me you know, we are our hero.

(45:18):
And I'm like, oh, please stop.
You're my hero, ladies.
You're going to school, you'regoing to university in Iran
passing around a bootleg copy ofProject NIMH amongst their
animal rights group in Tehran,risking their lives to be able
to view a film.
So it's that sort of thing thatgives you that kind.

(45:42):
You know, because I do mentionthe dead in the film.
You know, and I do some lyrics,lyrics kind of just came out of
my brain at the right moment,not that I practiced, but Bell
and I we talked about, you know,what possibly was going to be
asked and how I would do theinterviews.
And a lot of my friends arelike, man, you're a natural, and

(46:06):
I just think that I've lived it.
It's authentic.
Like now I don't have no scriptor anything, we're just having
a conversation, but I've livedall of this stuff enough to be
able to to express it in the waythat I think people understand.
And when you see something, yeah, indeed, and I think that that
passion is the same sort ofpassion, because I think that's

(46:28):
what, the way I say it in thefilm.
I say well, you know, I thinkit's like word for word.
I think that's what, the way Isay it in the film.
I say, well, you know, I thinkit's like word for word.
I mean, I don't know, I'm adeadhead and I think I might
rather hang out with Nim thanJerry, and for me that's saying

(46:55):
something you know, and that andthat's like you know, that's
having two things that huge inyour life.
That feels like it's thatimportant to you.
I feel really blessed and verylucky to have been able to have
that in my life and still pursueit.
I mean, we still see, we stillsee, like I said, dead and
company and we, you know, we goto Sweetwater up in Marin to
Bobby's club and saw Molly totalthere, seen Bobby there a
couple of times and and still,you know, we still participate
in, you know, reed mathis is, uh, is as a friend and uh, when I

(47:19):
had jungle gems, uh, we broughtdavid nelson band to norman.
I'm like sitting in my house inoklahoma, which I still own the
house.
Uh, david nelson's sitting inmy house and I've got albums
that I bought when I was 17years old of the new writers.
It's like well, this is sosurreal I can't, so much so that

(47:39):
I forgot to get him to sign thealbums, you know.
But it was one of those thingsthat even Nelson and Barry
Celeste and the band, theyunderstood my trip.
You know, barry.
Actually I showed him likethree and a half hours of some
of the footage that you saw onProject NIMH from the Oklahoma
days.
I showed all that to him.

(48:00):
So it's something that you cansee, the passion when in what's
more like love actually, to behonest with you, I mean, and
when you see love on film, likethat, it's not, it's not hard to
recognize, and I think thatlike I said, those students in
Tehran and and many hundreds ofpeople that have written to me

(48:24):
over the years, you know askingme how do I get to be you?
And I'm like well, you have tofind something you love and
pursue it, and don't take no foran answer, and do the best you
can to keep your chin up evenwhen things are down, because,
believe me, there were a lot ofnot so fun times.
I mean, I wasn't always a moviestar.

(48:44):
You know what I mean, so youknow I had to.
I had to do some things thatthat were not pleasant.
I mean, I handed out flyers onour campus one time and got
thrown down by the cops and myflyers taken away and that sort
of thing.
But that doesn't happen now.
Now they invite me to givetalks and show the right thing

(49:13):
and pursuing positive and goalsthat that are are pure and and
and that's the other thing aboutthe Grateful Dead that's pure.
And I think at the at the rootyou know there of course are all
kinds of terrible stories aboutgetting busted and this and
that, but at the root of it allis love and understanding and

(49:36):
music and getting along and allthe things that you can't really
put your finger on, but you canfeel it.
You feel it at the show.
Free hugs, for example.
What better way to express, youknow, that sentiment than when
you see a sign?
I remember the first time I sawone of those signs free hugs.
I'm like whoa dude, that isperfect, you know.

(49:59):
So it's that community, thatthat I I respond to and I hope
that other people will.
You know, even if you don'tnecessarily think that dead and
companies as good as the dead orthe Jerry band or Jerry Band or
whatever, at the root of allthat is the Grateful Dead and I
hope I have as good a time atthe Sphere as I've ever had at

(50:20):
any show I had at the Giants,the baseball field this year for
Dead Company, the final tour orwhatever, and at the Gorge it
feels the same.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
It's's different, but it's the same same family.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
I, you know I I can't new cousins, but same family
yeah, indeed, and, and you knowwhat, you see, all these young
kids that say things like well,what was it like to see, jerry,
you know, and it's, it wasbetter, yeah, it was better.
How did you say it was better,when I just said it was?

Speaker 1 (50:59):
better.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
Well, the reality is that, thank goodness, those kids
can get on YouTube and watchfull shows and understand what
was the root of what ishappening now, and although you
weren't there you can still.
Yeah, indeed, it ripples outExactly and you can still

(51:24):
experience it.
I mean, you buy a hundred inchscreen TV, like we got going on
here, and throw in the Great orDead movie.
You know, I mean a.
It's a wonderful time to be adeadhead.
To be perfectly honest with you.
Uh, david lemieux is absolutelyphenomenal.
That I have all, all of thosediscs.

(51:45):
Uh, it's a.
It's a thriving community andand it's evolved.
I mean, unfortunately we'velost a few along the way and
that's just the way families are.
That happens, you know, it's anencapsulation of life itself.
You know, and I love seeingBobby still carrying on and

(52:07):
doing, you know, doing as manyshows as he does.
He retired years ago.
I mean, he does a lot of showsas he does.
He retired years ago.
He does a lot of shows.
He really does.
He inspired, like I said, I'minto Billy Strings.
I see the inspiration thatBilly gets from Bobby and the
ultra respect that Billy pays.

(52:30):
Bobby went to Billy's wedding acouple of months ago and played
at the wedding, you know, andbilly talks about that in an
interview, like with ultrareverence, you know.
So, uh, and for the kid billyis a kid, 30 something years old
, to be able to play with hisheroes.
You know it's, it's a coolthing and and uh, and I, you

(52:53):
know, I feel lucky to have livedduring this period of time
where Jerry and Bob Dylan andall the band Frank Zappa and all
the bands that I got to see.
I mean, we went to see Madonnahere a couple of years ago.
We went to the Taylor Swiftshows in Los Angeles.

(53:19):
We didn't pay a lot of moneybut, we got in the lottery.
But I tell you, those kids thatgo to that show, they might not
be deadheads but they've gotthat same kind of passion for
Taylor and Taylor's music andTaylor's message, that that we
kind of have.
And so, even though I don't I'mnot, I mean I couldn't name one

(53:41):
Taylor song I'm glad I went andit's a different cultural
experience.
It is indeed something thatthose young kids can reach out
to and find a space that theycan identify with.
Well, it's different, but youknow what?

(54:02):
It's not a competition.
Music's not a competition.
It's about what you like.
I mean, I'm telling you, I sawliterally hundreds and hundreds
of people singing.
I looked around and, like itwas, everybody was singing along
, they knew every word.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
You got to.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
You got to respect that and and you see that
they're like turned to theirmoms crying.
You know, I it's, it's.
You know, like I said, I thinkthat music isn't a competition
and it's about, I mean, andtaylor can play, you know she
can write songs uh it might notbe what you know, necessarily

(54:47):
our cup of tea, but uh, but shedefinitely has got something
going on.
But you know, like I said, I gotsomething going on.
But you know, like I said, Igot the lucky I got to see.
You know, uh, see, bands thatyou know clapped and with
Freddie King, and all that inthe seventies.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
You know you mentioned Zappa.
Like what.
I'm a massive Zappa fan.
Like what?
What era of Zappa were youseeing Zappa?

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Oh, were you seeing zappa?
Oh, I saw zappa in the 70s andinto the you know and towards
the end.
But god, when was that zappa?

Speaker 1 (55:19):
show was probably around 78 or so.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Uh, terry bozio was at the height of his powers I
mean his band was like thatgiant band we saw.
I saw him like three differenttimes.
I I got lucky and when I was 14my best friend's older brother
was into zappa so he had thoseearly you know, like the only in
it for the money and all thoseearly albums, that's the best

(55:42):
one and schooled us little kidson zappa.
You know, and uh, and when youlisten to that stuff, you, you
appreciate the genius of,because every single thing that
goes on in his Apple record iswritten down on a piece of paper
and it's like whoa, he wassuper phenomenal.

(56:05):
I mean we we saw Little Feet onNew Year's Eve in 1979 with
Lowell George and Bonnie RaittNew Year's Eve in 1979 with
Lowell George and Bonnie Rae.
I mean I've hung out with RLBurnside and the North
Mississippi All-Stars and allthat during that time that I had
the Grateful Dead store,because that kind of opened the

(56:25):
doors for me to be able to havea connection to promoters and
this and that, and so I justfeel very lucky because music is
at the key to all that.
We, we have friends that aremusicians that have helped us
out along the way.
That uh, uh, brian haas, who isjacob fred, jazz odyssey, uh, he

(56:45):
has done a number of promotionsfor us and and uh, and several
local, uh, oklahoma Hostie andand other folks that play in the
Oklahoma City area that havehelped us out along the way with
the chimp stuff and and artists.
So, and you know, and at thesame time you can turn them onto

(57:07):
the dead.
I I gotta say that I bet thefirst time that or the first
time that he was really immersedin the grateful dead, uh, uh,
reed mathis, who now plays withyou, know almost all the all the
people in the bay area that arerelated with the dead.
He actually plays a lot of deadand we we went to a show
recently where most of the songswere dead stuff.

(57:30):
So and I I think that that hemight have first really been
immersed.
Yeah he was immersed in theGrateful Dead music in my store.
So and he was.
He was the bass player in JacobFred Jazz Odyssey during that
period of time.
Phenomenal If you're.
If you're not familiar withReed Mathis, you become familiar

(57:51):
, he is a fabulous musician.
Do you know?

Speaker 1 (57:55):
I know, I know the name but, but I'm not familiar.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
Yeah, he's a first of all, he's a great guy and a
fabulous musician.
He's, I believe he was aconcert trained cellist and his
his interpretations,interpretations of hendrix and
all kinds of stuff.
He, like I said he was a bassplayer but recently he's been
playing six string and we sawhim recently with some of the

(58:19):
guys from the animal liberationorchestra, the libo, I believe,
is his name.
So I mean, obviously we're intothe dead but we, like Jerry
said you know music, go out andsee people.
He did bluegrass.
I mean, you know he did jazz.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Yeah, well, you know he would play with, like with
the new writers.
He'd play a set and then he'd,you know, and then play like
three sets with the dead andthen go home and practice banjo
or something after that, youknow.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Indeed, and fortunately I got to actually uh
speak to david nelson about allthose days.
You know how was it to?
You know I, I said somethinglike what was it like to like
play with jerry and this, andthat he says, dude, I had to go
on after miles davis, and I'mlike whoa, I never even thought

(59:09):
about it.
Like that he said, yeah, I wasthe most nervous person on the
planet.
It was like miles davis opensfor the new writers, holy cow,
you know so, uh, and bill grahamhas a lot, lot to uh, a lot to
do with all of that.
I mean, he uh paired togetherlots of different bands that
wouldn't normally go together.

(59:30):
Speaking of Bill Graham, in 1988, we were at the New Year shows,
my friend Sean and I, and wehad the flu or something and we
had the back door of my van openat Pop Top, and back then the
little scooters weren'tsomething that everybody had.
And all of a sudden, thisscooter pulls up behind our van
and sticks his head in and goeshey guys, you, what's going on?

(59:53):
And we look up and it's, it'sbill graham, and we're like we,
you know, we're sitting theredrinking tea or whatever, and
and we're like tripping.
We're like bill, how you, youknow.
It's like he shakes our hand.
He's super nice and asks us weneed anything.
I'm like this is the promoterof this is Bill Graham, for
God's sakes, you know, beingthat cordial and that polite and

(01:00:16):
nice, and we offered him a cupof tea.
He's like no, no, you know,it's all good.
It was that kind of a scenethat I mean.
I've heard a lot of storiesabout Bill Graham, this and that
, but my experience with BillGraham was super awesome.
I've super awesome and thosehard-ass stories yeah, yeah, he
was like kind of into the moneyor whatever, apparently.
But you know, I get it becauseI promoted shows and you know

(01:00:38):
promoting shows is no fun.
But fortunately for me, I, I,you know we made money and then
all the profits we gave back tothe bands.
We, you know, like I said, wedid new writers and we did uh, I
mean not new writers davidnelson band, we did guitar
shorty once or twice, and swag,which is a band based in
missouri, that's like a deadcover band.

(01:00:59):
So we, we tried to expose asmany people as we could to what
we were doing and worked thatchimp activism into the whole
scene because it just made senseto me that well, if I'm into
these two things that much, Ican blend them together in a way
that seems and it was, it wasauthentic because I'm really

(01:01:23):
this guy, you know.
But when you see the film, evenI, when I see the film and I've
seen it hundreds of times now,because you know it's played
around and I've done lots offilm festivals and screenings
and this, and that we went toEdinburgh and the Toronto Film
Festival, boston, you know allkinds of places, bella and I,
and we sit there and go whoa,it's such a trip to see yourself

(01:01:46):
on a big screen, you know, butit helped and it helped our
chimp friends.
Things are are not perfect, butthey're better.
And, uh, most of the chimps inthe United States not all, but
most are in sanctuaries now.
Uh, or zoos which, uh, you know, uh, I'm not a big fan of zoos,

(01:02:06):
but uh, but it is what it is.
And and they get treated withrespect and they're not used as
pin cushions in medical labsanymore, and that's not been
going on for quite some time.
I still help run a monkeysanctuary in Oklahoma called the
Oklahoma Primate Sanctuary,which we started during the time
before the movie, and all thatwhen we were running the store

(01:02:28):
because I had a little extramoney and we could do that.
It's now 30, over 30 years old.
We have 120 monkeys.
I'm on the board of directorsof a of an animal sanctuary
called Oliver and friends inOklahoma as well.
So I, you know, and they'redeadheads actually the, the, the
founders, you know, jenny andJason.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
So you know.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
Jenny and Jason.
So you know, I walk into theirhouse.
They got Dylan posters and youknow.
And they're into the dead aswell.
That's great and, like mostpeople, what's that?
Really messed up animals there.
Yeah, we take in cows withthree legs and stuff like that.
We get prosthetic legs made forthem and stuff.
We do the hard cases.

(01:03:09):
But it's that passion, you know, uh, and deadheads.
If it isn't, you know, if youcan't say anything about them,
you can definitely say thatthey're passionate about what
they're into and uh and itcarries across into their lives.
Jerry said it himself he's likeman every.
You never know.

(01:03:30):
You know doctors, lawyers,mayors, governors.
You know vice president.
What's that?

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Vice presidents.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Yeah, vice president, yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed, so.
So it it's something that weall can.
We can kind of glom onto andand respect one another in a way
.
You know that.
You know we don't have to hateeach other.
You know love is a lot, a lotbetter than hate.
You know be kind all the time,all that I mean.

(01:03:59):
I'll never forget the firsttime I saw be kind bumper
stickers.
It was like whoa, how cool isthis?
yeah I mean we, we toured,simple, great idea yeah, indeed,
it's like you know, be kind allthe time.
Uh, we, we toured during thetime.
Great idea, yeah, indeed, it'slike you know, be kind all the
time.
We toured during the time whenNelson Mandela was still in jail
, so we gave away AbolishApartheid stickers and this and
that.
So, besides the music, you canbring a little bit of that

(01:04:24):
social justice and environmentaljustice and racial and you know
, all the kind of things that wehope to solve and getting along
is a lot better than notgetting along.
And finding some common groundand working from there.
Because when you talk tosomebody, instead of yelling at

(01:04:44):
them or writing nasty messagesto them or people that you don't
even know, that's not helpful.
Writing nasty messages to themor people that you don't even
know, that that's not helpful.
And uh, I hope that you knowour, you know, and bobby and the
band now dead and company,they're involved in getting out
the vote and, uh, making youknow, getting involved in your
life because this is our life,so, so anyway, uh, yeah we've,

(01:05:10):
uh, I I can't tell you how muchfun we've had here in San
Francisco in the last 18 years.
I don't know, I can't even tellyou how many times we've been to
the Fillmore or to to the greatAmerican music hall or to the
Orpheum Is that the name of thatplace?
Yeah, the Orpheum, or Bobby'splace, or the Warfield or or
Phil's club, before it closed.

(01:05:31):
You know, and and actuallyrunning into, you know, like
Phil, you know, who is anawesome gentleman.
You know I've gotten to sign.
He put out a book a couple ofyears ago.
I went and you know, of course,stood in line and got to meet
Phil.
We went, we met Bobby a coupleof times.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
He's not searching for the sound.
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Yeah, that's exactly right, phil.
Uh, we went.
We met bobby a couple of times.
Was that searching for thesound?
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah,yeah, that's exactly right uh, I
love that book.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
That was one of all the dead books.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
I was one of that one , and mickey hart's book were
like my favorites yeah, I, Ialso like there's another one by
one of the roadies I forgetwhich one it is, but it's pretty
good too, uh, you know, andeveryone has their own
perspective.
We run into steve parish anumber of times, and Mountain
Girl and also Donna.
You know they do a lot ofbenefits around here, so we're

(01:06:18):
like, yeah, let's go to thatbenefit.
I'm just glad to be able tospeak to you about all this and
hope that those people out therethat are going to shows, you
know, show all the kindness andthe I I I'd be perfectly honest

(01:06:39):
with you.
I've always had good times atat music events, uh, and, like I
said, the billy string scene isvery similar, uh, and there's a
lot of crossover.
You meet a lot of deadheadsthat you know would talk dead
when we're in the line, wait forposters or whatever.
So, and the music is isinspiring and, uh, joyful, you

(01:07:02):
know you said that you have abook out or coming out.
Yeah, I do have a book out.
Actually, one of the books Ihave right here is our first
book, which is calledPrimatology, ethics and Trauma
the Oklahoma Chimp Studies.

(01:07:23):
They're academic books, butthere's there's a lot in here
that is not academic necessarily.
So we approach this from anacademic perspective.
And the next book is coming outvery soon.
This one you can get on Amazonor from our publisher, routledge
, which is R-O-U-T-L-E-D-G-E.

(01:07:47):
Routledge is a publishingcompany, an academic publishing
company in the UK.
Our next book, I believe, is upfor presale, maybe on Amazon,
and it's called Trauma inSentient Beings, the Nature
Nurture, nimh, and it's comingout, I think, in June and this

(01:08:09):
is actually a picture of me onthe cover.

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
That's me right there , wherever right there, and
that's the less gray one.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah , and that's Washoe right there
who is the first signing chimp.
And we're sitting there signing.
That's the sign for what.
So I'm going what?
And she's about to sign whatshe wants, which I might have
something under my foot orwhatever.
And the next book has a pictureof me being groomed.

(01:08:37):
The next book has a colorpicture on the cover and it's
got a picture of Nim and I andhe had accidentally scratched me
, I believe, right here on theside of my face, and as soon as
he did it he was like and so thepicture is him about to groom
my face to make sure I'm okay,it's really.
You've seen the film so youknow that there's some

(01:09:00):
remarkable footage in that filmand even if you're not into any
of this stuff.
If you just see the 10 or 15minutes of footage in the film
that's nim and I interacting,you'll uh, you'll have a
different opinion about therelationship that you can have

(01:09:20):
with another animal and maybeeven change your mind about you
know how animals know, interactwith the world.
You know I wasn't always avegan or vegetarian but over the
years I've come to realize thatanimals just like us, you know,
and especially chimps.
Since I got a chance to workwith chimps it has been very

(01:09:45):
eye-opening.
I mean, I gave a talk in like1983 or 84 at a elementary
school called Little Axe,outside of Norman, oklahoma, and
after the talk this kid came upto me and he said Mr Ingersoll,
do you eat meat?

(01:10:06):
And I was like man, come on, youknow, because it was about
lunchtime and I hadn't reallythought about it like that and I
said yeah, and he said, well,how do you expect me to believe
anything you say about chimps ifyou don't care about cows and
pigs and goats?
And at that moment I realized,well, you know, if I'm going to
be this guy that's going to, youknow, talk about animals and
protecting animals and beingkind to animals.

(01:10:27):
I can't eat the other animals,you know.
Talk about animals andprotecting animals and being
kind to animals.
I can't eat the other animals,you know.
And I didn't have anything forthis kid, you know.
So I said what do your parentsdo?
You know, his dad was a doctor,his mom was a college professor
or something, but, uh, but itwas like that kid was asking me
some of the really, you know,important questions for me to be

(01:10:48):
able to figure out before Iwould become this guy that's
sitting right here.
I mean, I'm not telling anybodyto do anything in their lives,
but if you, uh, you know, uh,you have to do what you have to
do about all that, I'm, you know, I'm vegan, but I'm not going
to browbeat you about it.
Uh, but when you see thatfootage of me and them
interacting.
It's pretty damn eyeopening.

(01:11:08):
I think, and I think thatyou'll agree, will that, that
it's, uh, it's powerful and uh,and now that I work with farm
animals.
Uh, I've even had my eyesopened about that sort of thing.
You know we have.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
I was gonna ask you how is your?
Does that change yourrelationship and the cognitive
or communicative skills of ofother animals?

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):
you know I'm not as good at it.
I mean I can deal with apes,for you know chimps and now
orangs.
I've worked with the rings alittle bit and uh, and now that
I've been around, jason and andjenny, uh, their relationship
with these animals is remarkableand you know, you've seen the

(01:11:52):
footage of like ducks that oncethey get to know their owner
they come up and hug and stuff.
That's the kind of thing I'vewitnessed Three legged cow that
we built we I say we and theexecutive, we are a board member
but I don't do the work and Igot to say it's the volunteers

(01:12:16):
at our, our, our sanctuary, thatthe, the farm animal sanctuary,
oliver and friends that'regetting helped by humans, and uh
, and I can stand back and justsee the same sort of thing you
see with them and I in theirrelationships.

(01:12:42):
And at the monkey sanctuary whatwe do is we, we take animals
from, mostly from labs.
Now we take.
We have some pets, ex-pets,which we we don't recommend.
Do not get a monkey for a pet.
It's a bad idea and we'll endup being involved in the
equation.
We really don't want to rescueanother pet, we'd rather work on

(01:13:02):
the ones that are in labs rightnow and what we do is we
integrate lab monkeys intogroups of other monkeys and we
try to let them be monkeys asbest we can.
Sometimes we have to teach themor we have to show them other
monkeys that have gone throughthe same thing.
So it's it.
It it's very fulfilling work, Igot to say, but sometimes it's

(01:13:24):
hard, and one of the thingsabout Grateful Dead tour back
then even cause we've beenrunning that monkey sanctuary
for over 30 years, it like whoa,I get the, I get the decompress
a little bit and just let letthe air out.
You know, and go, and you know Imean bell and I attended some
shows at shoreline.

(01:13:44):
Actually, when we first gottogether, uh, we were at a
shoreline show, I believe in 91,right in uh 91, and we were
like we were at the bostongarden.
We're a little bit, you know,like whoa, and at the break we
couldn't get up.
We're like no, no, I don'tthink I'm gonna walk right now.
We're all good and and I I'mkind of I don't sound like it,

(01:14:08):
but I'm kind of shy when itcomes to like I like the bell
but I wasn't.
I wasn't able to figure out howto say that to her, you know,
because I thought she was out ofmy league.
And so during that break Iturned to her and, I don't know,
it just popped out I'm like Iwant to kiss you.
And she looked at me like whatyou know and I said, yeah, and

(01:14:34):
she said, well, you know, maybenot now, not right now.
But I said, well, how about arain check?
And uh, a couple of days laterwe were at, we went to yosemite
and and uh, and that you know.
And then I, we, we camped thereand I looked down the camper
vans and you've probably been inone.
There's a bed up on the top anda bed on the bottom and I in the
morning I looked down and said,uh, hey, how about that rain

(01:14:55):
check?
So I bounced, she said okay,and we kissed one time and then
that was it.
We were together, I mean, wewere adults.
So you know, nothing reallyhappened except a kiss.
And then that day we're drivingthrough that, you know, we got
up and, you know, rustled up ourcampground and this and that,
and driving into yosemite forthe first time for me, uh, it

(01:15:18):
was just a couple of days afterthe shoreline run and, uh, the
sign on the, the, on the, theranger, the ranger station,
where you pay to get in, it hada, it had a sign, a chalkboard,
and there were Grateful Deadbears drawn on there in chalk.
And then it says have agrateful day you know, and it's

(01:15:40):
that kind of.
That's one of the things aboutthe Grateful Dead that it's like
a secret little society andpeople that didn't know about
the grateful dead had no ideawhat that meant.
But when we pulled up there webusted out laughing.
I, I took a picture of itbecause it was so cool and still
have it somewhere.
I mean that's the kind of thingthat that tails from the lot.

(01:16:02):
That's what this is all aboutyou know, it's those kind of
experiences that and I'm sureother people listening went.
Oh yeah, I remember that, youknow uh and it's.
it's the beauty, the camaraderieof it all, it's the symbolism,
the little steelies.
You know, you see one andyou're like, oh, you know, you
walk by somebody with a deadshirt on and you just, hey, cool

(01:16:23):
shirt.
You know, no one else knows, uh, it's, it's a cool thing, and
and uh, and now it's a culturalphenomenon, it's part of America
, it's part of our history andthat's pretty cool and you're
part of it.
Now you're archiving in thecanon and stories that would

(01:16:46):
otherwise be lost and givingthose folks like me an
opportunity to tell their truthsand their experiences and and
bring it all together.
And, like Bell said, in thecanon of the Grateful Dead, you
know, that's pretty damn cool.

Speaker 1 (01:17:02):
Now, that's how this started.
I was trying to remember somestories and and I couldn't
remember everything, so Ithought, well, maybe I'll talk
to some people and it'll jog mymemory of the things that I did
and saw.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
And yeah, it's a wonderful thing.
We watched a couple of yourshows.
It's a it's a really cool thingthat you're doing and I'm most
grateful that, that I get to dothis and that others you know
have the same opportunity.
So I mean, if, if you've beenreluctant to be on will show,
jump in there.
It's, it's cool and uh, I'msure a lot of people out there

(01:17:37):
got even cooler stories uh thanI do.
But uh, I'm just one person inthis whole big, you know,
millions of people now are, youknow, have been to dead shows
and and have experiences and uh,and I think it's important.
So, uh, I I'm most grateful foryou allowing us to talk about
the chimps and and our work thatwe do now and how it's

(01:17:58):
intertwined all the wayhistorically back to the
beginning.
I mean, I, I can remember myfirst dead albums back when I
was like 16, 17 years old.
I had new writers albumsactually first, because I was, I
was a little bit more into that, the birds and that kind of
thing.
So the new writers appealed tome in a in a way I didn't

(01:18:18):
understand the grateful dead,because grateful dead, what does
that mean, you know?
But then I heard working man'sa day and actually the the skull
and roses album and you know,bears, bear's choice, one of my
favorites actually, uh so uh,and I have all the albums and
roses album and you know, bear's, bear's choice, one of my
favorites actually, uh so uh,and I have all the albums and
all the.
You know, like I said,paraphernalia I got hats and
shirts, posters all the stuffall of that stuff, you know but

(01:18:42):
uh but it's a, it's a, it's a,it's a good thing and uh, I'm,
uh, I'm actually proud to saythat I'm a deadhead and I think.
Don't regret a minute of ityeah Like Bill said, we don't
regret a minute of it and it's areal honor to be on your show
because I think you're doing aservice for a lot of folks that

(01:19:04):
have a lot to say that don'totherwise have a place to do it.
I appreciate that, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:19:09):
Yeah, absolutely, and thank you, Bob for for taking
the time out of your day andbell for joining in.

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
I really appreciate both of you joining in and
telling your story Absolutely.
And uh, you know I'm onFacebook and Instagram and all
that stuff.
If you guys want to know moreabout our work with the animals
uh, you know our work with theanimals, uh, you know please, uh
, feel free to contact me.
I I've even had, like scottguberman, who had plays with
phil.
He wrote to me once and said,oh my god, I saw your movie holy

(01:19:39):
cow.
I've had people that wrote tome that are now on the board of
directors of animal sanctuaries,that wrote to me and went how
do I get to do?
And so I've helped them alongthe way.
Turns out, one of them was adeadhead and the first thing he
wrote to me in the email was hey, man, you make deadheads look
really good.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
And I laughed at that .

Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
But you know, most deadheads that I know are out
there doing good stuff.
Doing good work, you know,adding to their community and
doing important other than beingdeadheads.
They're doing really importantwork.
That I think that bodes wellfor our community because I
think that you know you have toparticipate and deadheads

(01:20:21):
certainly participate.

Speaker 1 (01:20:23):
Oh yeah, no doubt.

Speaker 2 (01:20:24):
So anyway, thanks a lot, Will.
I appreciate it and feel freeto contact anytime.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
All right, Thank you bud.