The Great Book Panic

We talk about explicit sh*t on this podcast. We got the cute little explicit mark on every episode and everything! You could say we’re pretty knowledgeable about racy stuff in books.

So that means we all three can appreciate the difference between spicy erotic orc dick written by and for mature adults and educational nonfiction material created with young people in mind.

Not everyone can though. This Book Panic has come across our radar enough and affects us just enough that we’re devoting a whole dang episode to it.

Apologies for the lack of smut in this episode. More is coming! We’re calling this our “special episode”

Warnings for this episode include discussions about sexuality shaming, racism, and sexual abuse. Do not feel obligated to listen if you are not in a mental space to do so.

Quick update! There are Texans fighting this trend! (https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/education/article282842338.html)

Support the Texas Freedom to Read Project: https://www.txftrp.org 

View the whole list of stuff we reference on our website: https://talesfromtheorcden.com/2023/12/01/the-great-book-panic/ 

Music is called "Undead Bride" by Pagefire https://soundcloud.com/nerdymetalhead202/undead-bride 

Episode Transcript

Stacy (00:00):
This is sort of our, this is sort of the Tales from the

(00:02):
Orc and equivalent

EJ (00:03):
of tonight on a very special episode of Blossom.
Welcome back to Tales from theOrc Den.
So we talk about explicit shiton this podcast.
Truly, truly,

Stacy (00:18):
truly explicit shit.
Because we like it

EJ (00:21):
that way.
Oh, we got a cute littleexplicit mark on every episode.
So y'all can see this is not foryour kids.
Um, this is for when you aredoing crafts and laundry and
commuting to work, um, orwalking.
You could say, actually, uh, Iwould say we're pretty
knowledgeable about racy stuffin books.

(00:42):
I concur.

Stacy (00:44):
Kind of because, you know, we're in repentant

EJ (00:46):
perverts, but we also have to be well rounded in our
reading and our education,despite some evidence to be, uh,
the contrary, the contrary.
Um, so, you know, we.
But we do, we podcast aboutmonster romance in particular

(01:08):
because it's fun.
Exactly.

Stacy (01:11):
And they got weird, they got weird wieners and I like
that.

EJ (01:14):
And just weird looks

Amy (01:16):
and strange appendages that are never there in

Stacy (01:19):
just regular humans.
Tragically.

EJ (01:21):
Indeed.
So, but that means all three ofus can appreciate the difference
between a spicy erotic orc dickwritten by and for mature adults
and educational material createdwith young people in mind.
Exactly.
And that's what brings us to,uh, the topic we want to discuss

(01:42):
in today's episode.
The issue is not everyone canappreciate the difference
between adult stuff and kidsstuff.

Stacy (01:54):
And yet somehow we're still able to, you know, become
a professional.
Oh, I don't know.
I'm just going to say it off thetop of my head.
Politician.

EJ (02:01):
That's strange.
Yeah.
Um, I thought your

Stacy (02:04):
brainstem had to touch your brain before you could be
one, but I've since learned tothe

EJ (02:09):
contrary.
Mm hmm.
Well, that'll teach you, Stacey.
Right?

Stacy (02:15):
How dare I assume confidence?

EJ (02:18):
So this whole like book panic came across our radar, um,
enough that it, it affects usin, in, uh, in some of us more
than others in kind ofinteresting ways.
And, and we're just, we're justgoing to freaking devote a whole
episode to it because even if itdoesn't affect some of us
professionally, it affects us,uh, in some ways.

(02:40):
Uh, familially, um.
And just, you know, damn it.
We care about kids.
Um, so there we go.
I work with children.
Uh, two of us work with kiddos.
Uh, the other one works me.
Uh, I, I work with adults whosometimes act like kiddos, um,
which is fair, but I do haveadults are horrible.

(03:01):
Yeah, I, I do happen to have akiddo myself.
So I suppose I'm in aninteresting place.
Uh, when I look at, uh, moralpanic and parents,

Stacy (03:12):
Well, yeah, and I helped raise several of my nieces and
nephews, so I was caught up

EJ (03:16):
in that as well.
So, so, Stacey, you're aparental figure.
Yes, I am a vice mom, that wasthe joke.
She's definitely a parent

Amy (03:24):
or a parent, like you said, parental figure, a guardian.

EJ (03:27):
Yeah.

Stacy (03:28):
Vice mom is what

EJ (03:29):
they called me.
So I, I want to lay a bit of agroundwork because I don't want
to assume, uh, our non Americanaudience, or even our American
audience for that matter, isgoing to immediately know, what
the hell are they hinting atwith the weird poly Tition stuff
and quick panic.

(03:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I could make a solid argumentthat there's been probably a
moral panic in the U.
S.
and about the Obamaadministration.
I can at least say as someonewho, right.
It's been interesting,especially because I grew up in
a very conservative Americancultural background.

(04:11):
I grew up in super hello whiteMidwest that tends to run
conservative.
However, however, our state offocus is Texas.
Oh, Texas.
The state's been having sometime having a time.
I, they recently passed a what Ithink is a rather broad bill.

(04:32):
It demands.
Any book vendor of public schoollibraries to rate their books
for explicit content.
And that's going to be startingin the middle of 2024.
We're recording this episodetowards the end of 2023.
And this is just one little dropin this, like, waterfall
backdrop of this, of aconservative political surge

(04:54):
that's inspired, and this is anactual number, of 1, 269.
Documented demands to censorbooks in American libraries
since 2022.
That's the highest number theAmerican Library Association has
recorded in 20 years, and that'sjust when they started recording

(05:15):
those numbers.
And yes, I will give Thatreference in the show notes,
because I believe, unlike thisarticle we're going to talk
about, I believe in referencingmy sources.
Yeah, exactly.

Stacy (05:30):
Primary sources and citing them appropriately.

EJ (05:33):
And

Amy (05:34):
also getting both viewpoints.

EJ (05:36):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, so my day, my daytimecareer, without getting into too
many details, has focused prettymuch always on, on data and
research.
Uh, nothing, in my opinion,nothing really makes these
numbers, like this big assnumber really come alive, like a
good anecdote.
And in the past couple of weeksover on Discord, Amy shared what

(06:00):
I think is a hell of ananecdote, anecdote.
Uh, for these numbers, for thesetrends that's going on in the U.
S., that, uh, for, you know,there is a panic about what kids
are being exposed to.
So, uh, this article is from aTexas conservative blog.

(06:24):
Um, it was released in Septemberof 2023.
Uh, I will, I will admit, Idon't find the article actually
that remarkable.
as a piece of journalism.
Um, as someone who actuallyhappens to have, uh, some formal
training in research andjournalism for that matter, I
have several issues with this,uh, this journalist.

(06:47):
And that all being said, I doactually find it an interesting
glimpse into what the heck iskind of going on with this.
So I'm going to read thisarticle, which is mercifully
short.
And then I have some questionsfor Amy, who happens to work in
the realm of libraries as aprofessional librarian.

(07:09):
And, uh, Yeah, I'm just going toask her a crap ton of questions.
But pretty much I'm expectingStacey and myself to be
somewhere between Amy'sinterviewers and hype women.
Yeah, basically.
That's how this is going to go.
Appreciate it.

Stacy (07:29):
We're going to hold her earrings while she kicks this
bitch's

EJ (07:31):
ass.
Right.
So, so first this article, just,just to lay it out for you guys.
What the, what is this articlethat's got, uh, that's crawled
up our craw?
Um, and I will also leave it inthe show notes too.
I, uh, if you want to give themthe clicks, I'm fine with that.
If you want to

Stacy (07:50):
damage your intellect that

EJ (07:52):
dangerously.
Mm hmm.
So, the title is New BraunfelsPublic Libraries Filled with
Sexually Explicit Books.
The books were found in bothlibraries youth sections.
Two new Braunfels publiclibraries are being exposed for
having sexually explicit bookstargeting children.

(08:12):
Jolene Mezros, a mother from NewBrunfels, shared with the Texas
Scorecard sexually explicitbooks she and other moms found
in their local libraries.
The books were found in theearly readers, juvenile, and
youth sections of the libraries.
They were

Stacy (08:30):
all found in the teenage section, I fucking guarantee

EJ (08:33):
it.
Actually,

Amy (08:35):
I will say, most of them were, yes.
Most likely found in the YAslash teen section.
But I'll get to that later.
There was at least, there was anEastie reader and at least one
juvenile book.
But they were all non

EJ (08:49):
fiction.
Right.

Amy (08:51):
In other words, they are meant to be informational and

Stacy (08:53):
educational.
Right, it was a, it was ateaching tool.
Not a...
Hey kids, you want to learn howto...
You know, you want to learn whata fucking Stanley Steamer is?

EJ (09:05):
Mesoros was shocked to discover that most of these
books were in a closed sectionof one library reserved for ages
13 to 18.
According to the sign in frontof the section, staff members
can relocate adults from thearea.
Can I step in real quick?

(09:25):
Yes.

Amy (09:26):
Okay, so this is most likely the teen area and the
reason for relocating the adultsis because that should be a
designated area for teens only.
Slash library staff,

Stacy (09:40):
but which makes sense.
And there's always going to be afucking creeper.

EJ (09:43):
Exactly.
You actually, yeah, you kind ofhit it right there.
But anyway, I'll go on.
In the book shared by Mazaros,graphic images depicted
masturbation and sexual acts.
They also showed variouspictures of transgender
individuals naked.
Teaching children that it'snormal to use sterilizing
puberty blockers, and cross sexhormones, and remove healthy

(10:07):
body parts.
one book entitled, Sex is aFunny Word.
Shows images of various bodyparts, and explains that
touching those body parts canfeel good.
The book was labeled with a J,meaning it was for juveniles.
Another book, titled You Do You,labeled for youth, had a section

(10:30):
talking about getting yourselfoff.
The book explains how tomasturbate, and why it's the
safest form of sex.
And doesn't involve otherpeople.
And that's incorrect how?
I, I'm over here like no liesdetected.
Yeah, seriously.

Stacy (10:49):
Pretty much.

EJ (10:52):
A book labeled for youth called Let's Talk About It shows
graphic images of naked bodies.
It depicts people having sex,and gives children a step by
step tutorial on how tomasturbate.
As a Christian woman, it's hardto look at this stuff, Mezros
told Texas Scorecard.
But if we're ignoring that it'sthere, then we're ignoring the

(11:15):
fact that our children arehaving to look at it.
Mezaros also shared that it'sthat sexually explicit books
weren't the only questionablematerials found in the
children's section.
Other books containing criticalrace theory, diversity, equity,
and inclusion teachings.

(11:38):
advocacy, and violence againstconservatives were also in the
children's and youth section.

Stacy (11:45):
I'm calling bullshit on that last one.
That didn't

EJ (11:47):
fucking happen.
The Violence AgainstConservatives, I want to know
which book that was.

Amy (11:52):
There is a list.
I think it was, hang on, they dohave it below.
It was Harry Potter, wasn't it?

EJ (11:56):
They have it below.
There we go.
Yeah.
Steal This Country.
One book titled Steal ThisCountry by Alexandra Sto
Styrone, I certainly hope I'msorry if I'm butchering any
names here, by the way,describes itself as a handbook
for resistance, persistence andfixing everything and explains

(12:18):
white privilege.
The book claims that whiteprivilege is being able to walk
down the street without fear ofharassment from cops or shop in
a store without being the objectof suspicion.
The author also asserts thatwhite people are privileged and
that they can commit acts ofviolence without being called

(12:38):
terrorists.
Yeah,

Stacy (12:41):
we've seen examples of that with every

EJ (12:42):
fucking shooting.
Other books like We Can'tBreathe, Unequal, A Story of
America, and Rise Up, How YouCan Join the Fight Against White
Supremacy, were also found inthe children's section.
As an aside, don't worry, dearreaders, uh, we will have these
books in the show notes, so youcan check them out for

(13:03):
yourselves.

Stacy (13:05):
I'm going to go buy one copy of each of them just to
spite this bitch.

EJ (13:10):
Mezros sent Texas Scorecard videos of the new Braunfels
mayor, Neil Linaerts, sayingduring a mayoral debate that he,
that while he believes in theFirst Amendment, Sexually
explicit books have no place inthe library children's section.
However, after his election, hewalked back his statement at a

(13:32):
city council meeting, sayingthat the city council is not in
the business of putting,picking, or placing library
books in the libraries.

Amy (13:43):
They hire librarians for that very reason.
What

Stacy (13:47):
a novel fucking concept.
Right?

EJ (13:51):
Another local mom, Cassie Brown, said that when she
brought these explicit books tothe city council's attention,
the librarians laughed androlled their eyes as she showed
them the images in the book.
It's because she was

Stacy (14:05):
there last week with a different book, doing the same
fucking

EJ (14:08):
thing.
The librarians also allegedlytold Brown that the library is
not a safe place for children,will totally get into what the
heck was probably going onthere, so don't worry.
Ultimately, the library is aplace that should help change
the trajectory of your life,explained Brown.

(14:28):
Which it is.
Yes.
Yeah.
No lies detected, Books areimportant, and they should
inspire you and help you learnthings.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, the books thatthey're stacking on shelves now
are harming our children.
Rondi Che, another mother in NewBrunfels, who helped Mezaros

(14:49):
look through the books, toldTexas Scorecard that although
the material was dark, they arewilling to fight the fight.
Oh, fuck off.
We love our country and thechildren in this community.
Hold on Stacey, we're almostthere.
I'm gonna

Stacy (15:07):
fucking stab everybody.

EJ (15:09):
Calm down, calm down.
We love our country and thechildren in this community.
And it's appalling Only thewhite ones.

Stacy (15:16):
Stacey, hold back, hold back, let me

EJ (15:19):
through this whole thing.
No, say it again Stacey.
We love our country and thechildren in this community.
And it's appalling that thesetypes of books are being pushed
onto the children.
It is complete sexualization andthey use freedom of speech to
force it on us, said Che.
Sorry, that was a little bitdramatic on my part.

Stacy (15:42):
But also, dear lord, freedom of speech means that
people are allowed to speakfreely.

EJ (15:48):
Oh, man.
Not without consequences, ofcourse, but also if there's no
crime actually being committedhere, then I don't know what to
tell you.
Um, yeah.
Okay, buckle up for this nextone, Stacy.
I need you to take deep breaths.
Please deep breaths.

(16:09):
We are so close to the end.
Deep breaths.
Okay, but I

Stacy (16:13):
won't like it.

EJ (16:14):
We know you won't because we don't either.
We had to pray intermittentlyduring the scouring because it
is dark what is in those books.
I cannot even imagine what it isdoing to the kids.
We are willing to fight thisfight until we get something

(16:35):
done.
Children are our next leadersand we need them to grow up
healthy, not in a world ofperversion, she added.
Texas Scorecard reached out toMayor Linitz, but he has not
responded to a request forcomment.
Texas Scorecard also contactedthe new Brunfels Library
Director, Gretchen Pruitt, andYouth Services Librarian,

(16:57):
Whitney Hasler, but did notreceive a response from either
before publication.
And I will say, as an editorialaside, good for you too!

Amy (17:08):
They probably have a marketing and communications
sort of thing that isresponsible for answering any
and all media

EJ (17:15):
inquiries.
Abso frickin lutely.
it's a very common thing tohave, like, an actual, like,
process when you're gettingstuff like this.
When you're a public servant,heck, when you're even working,
I've, I've only volunteered inlibraries, I have worked in
academic libraries, but only asa student, so I was only a baby.

(17:36):
Um, but even as a baby, even Iknew that there was protocol if
you had the outside.
Asking for stuff like you had togo through people, you

Amy (17:52):
don't say anything to the media, you direct them to, to
you direct them to where theyneed to go,

EJ (17:58):
because the big part with that is when you're a public
librarian you are then a publicservant when you are a public
servant, you are speaking with avoice of the local government
and that's not to be trifledwith despite what some
politicians may think still notto be trifled with.
So, uh, anyway, so I have somequestions for Amy, because boy,

(18:19):
this has a lot to unpack here,and again, like, I tried, I
tried being, uh, I don't know,the dramatic part of me did get
away a little bit there, butonly because there are some
parts of this that honestly feltlike something straight out of,
like, a Simpsons cartoon, withhow terribly condescending and

(18:40):
patronizing.
It was.
Um, so I'm, I'm simultaneouslysorry and yet not sorry enough
for that.
I'm just going to get on tothese questions now, Amy.
Can you briefly describe theselection and review process for
books in a given public library,particularly in the youth

(19:01):
sections.

Amy (19:03):
All right.
So, first, I do want to clarifythat regarding the use of youth
in this instance, to myunderstanding, it's being used
to represent teens, youngadults, also known as YA, or
adolescents, in other words,patrons aged 13 to 18.
Now the selection and reviewpolicy for public libraries will

(19:26):
usually be available on thelibrary's website.
They believe in immensetransparency, they want their
community to know how we decidewhat we get in the library.
And typically titles that areintended for a teen or YA
audience will be stated as suchfrom the vendors that we go
through, not to mention the booklists.

(19:48):
And, um, the professionallibrary journals that we consult
for reviews.

EJ (19:56):
Um, let's see.
That is actually a really goodpoint that I don't know if
everyone in the public quiteunderstands.
At least in the American libraryworld, there is a whole, there
are several bodies oforganizations that make up A
whole, a whole framework forfunneling books to a library is

(20:16):
so structured, it is so formalthat, like, to me, it, it's
actually a real puzzle to get alot of Indies, uh, Indie, Indie
published books into a librarybecause there are so many types
Formalized channels and policiesto work through, which makes

(20:37):
sense.
And this is not me being like,take down the policies.
This is just me acknowledging,you can't just stuff a book
willy nilly.
Into a library.
It's not like someone can go outand make a zine or something and
then just shove it into theirlibrary.
exceptions, but you'll stillhave to go through a cataloger,

(20:59):
and those guys are some of themost particular people I have
ever met.

Amy (21:03):
They are, they are.
But basically, we take, we takeinto account reviews from
professional journals such asschool library journal and book
list.
Um, in order to decide whetheror not, one, a book has merit,
and two, should it, should it beFor the community that we are

(21:24):
serving and but when I say we, Imean, the general we as in those
that are in librarianship.
Um, and last, we also take intoaccount circulation and checkout
statistics of either books bythe same author.
If it is another book, it'salready in collection or similar
titles are reviewed to gaugeinterests of the community.

(21:48):
Because if a book that featuresa certain topic or a certain
story or whatever that wealready have is just sitting
there on the shelf collectingdust, there is no point in
getting another book that issimilar.
And that's the great thing aboutthe reviews, because they will
often compare them to otherbooks.
You can say, you have a debutauthor, and they say, oh, if you

(22:11):
like such and such author andthis such and such author, then
definitely you want to get thisone.
Or.
In the other vein, they willsay, as long as you have this
author and this author in yourcollection already, you don't
need to worry about this one

EJ (22:24):
at all.
Right.
Right.
And, and I think this is, uh,this is a good transition into,
like, the, once, once the bookcomes through the vendors and it
hits the library, there's awhole other process?
Where it's figuring out wherethe heck it's going to go, and
every library is actually kindof a special, unique place.

(22:46):
So this kind of brings me to mynext question.
What is common for a library'spolicies and guidelines for
categorizing and relocatingbooks based on age
appropriateness?

Amy (22:59):
Okay, as I did mention in question one, the title, the
titles will usually have the agemarketed.
In other words, the audiencewill be noted, um, and stated on
the vendor's site for eachtitle.
They will say either childrenfrom ages 5 to 6, or teen from

(23:20):
12 to 14, or even older teenfrom 5 to 16.
16 to

EJ (23:24):
18.
And it would make sense if theydon't reinvent the wheel.
Yes.

Stacy (23:28):
Even some books themselves have that on them.
Yeah.
For grade school readers orsomething like

EJ (23:35):
that.
Absolutely.
This is book marketing 101.
I think the romance worldactually knows this probably
better than everyone, anyonereally, because like, even for
adult women, some of them, theydon't want spicy, they want
steamy.
And so you better be veryexplicit about that, or you will
have very angry reviews and themarketplace will punish you.

(23:57):
Most assuredly.
Yes.
And so like Yeah, absolutely.
It's, uh, it's something that,uh, other, other book vendors
are going to appreciate.
Like, yeah, you know, somethingthat is for adults is not going
to appeal to teens andsomething.
It's why they're even like, youknow, splitting hairs with like

(24:19):
new adult versus young adultnow.
Like, this is how important itis to book marketing to figure
out right age appropriateness.
Please don't get me

Amy (24:29):
started on the new adult thing because it should not be a
thing anyway.
It's all adults.

EJ (24:34):
It's all adults.
I

Amy (24:37):
like it.
Knowledge age to seniors orwhatever.

Stacy (24:40):
I like, I like it for my use.
Like, I don't think it's a toolthat a library needs to use, but
I like it just because then Iknow to avoid that book because
new adults are boring.
And I went through all of thatshit already and I don't want to
read about your 22 year oldangst.
Because I went through it and Idon't want to relive it, quite
frankly.

EJ (24:58):
That is fair.

Amy (25:01):
I will say on the vendor, on the vendor site, sometimes
the professional reviews willcontradict the intended
audience.
And they'll state in theirreview that the title may be
better suited for an adult or amiddle grade audience.
This has happened with some YAbooks.
They've said, due to the levelof...

(25:21):
The content, it actually wouldbe better suited for an adult
audience or an older, like, Iwant to say 17 and up audience.
Or if it reads young, it mightactually be more appropriate for
a middle

EJ (25:35):
grade audience.
Right, and I think this is whereit can be really useful for the
individual library, because somelibraries do have a very
specific Teen section, some ofthem even have preteeny sort of
sections, and they can, youknow, they can split hairs
accordingly

Amy (25:52):
and of course, as you did mention EJ, this is going to
vary from library to librarywith regards to the nuances.
What one library system mayconstitute as being YA, another
one may constitute as beingmiddle grade or something to
that extent.
But the term, okay, I will saythe terms teen, YA, youth,

(26:15):
adolescent, those are allinterchangeable.
And that's typically going to becovering From middle school all
the way through high school, butit always depends on your
child's or on the child'sreading level.

EJ (26:28):
Yeah, and kids reading levels do vary a lot at that
age.
Just ask any English teacher.
Yes.
Kind of getting a bit to the,the controversies at hand, um,
or really the made upcontroversies, um, how I, I'm

(26:49):
curious, have, have you or, orany of your, your fellow
librarians ever handled concernsfrom parents or community
members about materials in thissort of

Amy (27:00):
way?
I'm actually relieved to saythat none of my own colleagues,
nor I, have had to handle thesekinds of concerns from patrons,
particularly parents.
I mean, I have spoken with mysupervisor in the past, and
while there is one thatoccasionally comes through, it's
usually for an adult book orsomething like that.

(27:21):
But it.
There's, there's a properprocedure and the patrons are
then guided to go through thatprocedure.
Now, this is another part ofcollection policy that libraries
of course should have.
It should also include a requestfor reconsideration of library
materials.
Now this does allow patronsopportunity to make their

(27:42):
concerns known to the librarythrough proper procedures.
Usually there will be a formthat the patron has to fill out.
Not anonymously.
They have to give their name,or, well, in the instance of the
New Braunfels one, they alsoinclude, the options of do you

(28:03):
represent yourself, or anorganization name, and,
actually, no, even so, they'llstill, they'll, you still have
to put in your name, but youhave, you have to say that
you're representing yourself, orwhatever group you're
representing, and...

EJ (28:18):
Which is actually a really good distinction.
That's a smart distinction.

Amy (28:22):
In our instance, my colleagues would most likely,
procedure would have us directthem to the collection
development policy so they canmove forward at their own
discretion and stop.
Well, full stop.
We would not go any further thanthat

EJ (28:38):
with them.
I admit I'm going to skip alittle bit on, uh, some of the
questions here, uh, mostlybecause I think that this kind
of moves over quite well.
What is your response to theallegations?
That the article mentioned ofthe library is dismissing the
librarians dismissing parentalconcerns about explicit or

(29:03):
inappropriate content, and inparticular that phrase that the
librarians allegedly said thelibrary is not a safe place for
children.
Okay, I'm

Amy (29:14):
going to answer the first part first and then the second
part second, obviously.
Cool, cool.
Granted, the first part is adoozy.
It's a bit hard to answer by notbeing present at the, at the, at
the alleged incident and alsonot getting the full story from
this.
Quote unquote, in my opinion,biased article.

(29:35):
according to Miriam Webster,explicit is defined as open in
the depiction of nudity orsexuality.
Very vague, very general,

EJ (29:44):
right?
Mm-Hmm.

Amy (29:46):
I think an article from 2016 from the National Coalition
Against Censorship says it best.
This is going to be a very longquote that I'm going to be
giving y'all, so braceyourselves.
Terms like sexually explicit andpornography are so subjective as
to be essentially meaningless.

(30:06):
They can be applied to Hustlerand National Geographic, Madame
Bovary, and Fifty Shades ofGrey.

Stacy (30:14):
Yep, I read that same article.

Amy (30:16):
That doesn't surprise me.
This kind of material is alsoprotected speech unless it's
obscene.
Oxford defines to be obscene, orsorry, not Oxford, well, to be
obscene, a book would have to bepatently offensive.
appeal to the prurient interest,this is where the Oxford

(30:37):
definition comes in, or havingor encouraging an excessive
interest in sexual matters,that's the definition of
prurient, and most critically,lack serious literary, artistic,
political, or scientific value.
Critics of these books are notconcerned with law, literature,
or even education.

(30:58):
They use terms like pornographyto convey their personal
antipathy to sexual content.
Yep.
And the end quote from thearticle.
And honestly, there's lots ofmaterial to be viewed at the
National Coalition, uh, uh,against censorship.
So, of course,

Stacy (31:20):
Well, it's, it's like the line, Of course, I'm, I'm,

EJ (31:23):
Go ahead.
Oh, well, I was going to

Amy (31:25):
say EJ is most likely going to link this one, but yes, by
all means, view, view thewebsite.
They also have toolkits infighting book bans and also what
you can do as the general

EJ (31:36):
public

Stacy (31:36):
it just reminds me of the lyric from Smut by Tom Lehrer.
To be smut, it must be utterlywithout any social redeeming
importance.

EJ (31:45):
I think that's that is tricky, like explicit or
inappropriate, we're dealingwith really subjective terms
there.
I think that's a big reason whywe often have to go to like,
okay, what's the dictionarydefinition, because a lot of it
really just comes down to whatare your cultural norms?
What are personal norms?
Norms, and this varies a wholelot in the U.

(32:06):
S., it varies a whole lot in theWestern world, it's sort of
like, well, what the hell do youmean by explicit?
Can we get some very specificthings?

Stacy (32:15):
They don't they don't want to be specific.
They want to keep it vaguebecause as long as they keep it
vague, it can become an umbrellaterm.
They can stuff anything

EJ (32:23):
under right.
Right.
And I guess, like, my veryconcern is like, no, no, that's
not that's a feature.
Not a bug.
Exactly.
Especially because, like, I'mlooking at this and I like this.
Uh, this also affects any childwho is not straight.
Um, this affects any child,heck, in this particular
article, I swear, they are likedancing this line of just being

(32:46):
black means you're beinginappropriate and explicit.

Stacy (32:49):
Yeah.
All they need is you can doanything.
The only thing that would havemore clearly stated their
disdain for people who aren'tlily white is if they had come
out and said, I hate anybodywho's not lily white.
That is literally the only waythey could have been more overt.

EJ (33:05):
UM, but anyway, so there was another part of that question,
which is.

Amy (33:11):
I did want to get into just a little bit more with regards
to that.
But considering the books thatwere mentioned in the article
from Texas Scorecard, they wereall non fiction with a majority
being intended for a teenadolescent reader.
These are materials thateducate, not titillate.
But it's an extremely awkwardand difficult time and books can

(33:33):
help provide answers or evenexpand on answers that parents
provide.
In fact, it's often better forparents to explore and research
with their teens.
So they are better informed aswell.

Stacy (33:46):
Well, the thing is, is like, so.
My sister, so when I was ateenager, I was 15 turning 16
when I moved in with my oldersister and she was 11 years
older than I am, so she's, shewas 27 at the time.
And when I moved in, my niecesand nephew were, my nephew was,
I think, 7 and then my nieceswere, I believe, 3 and like 18

(34:13):
months.
And...
The, you know, Brendan had kindof figured out, like, you know,
he'd asked where babies comefrom, and I think, you know, Mom
had just had a frankconversation with him, but the
girl, when the girl startedasking, they were quite a bit
younger than he was, and Margiejust went to the library,

EJ (34:30):
and she checked out this awesome book, that was, I think
it's just called, Where

Stacy (34:34):
Do Babies Come From?

EJ (34:36):
Oh, yeah.
I know that one.
I had that one.
Engaging.

Stacy (34:40):
Yeah, right.
The one where it's the, it talksabout like an orgasm is like,
it's like a, it's like a big hugthat you give somebody that is
something that grown ups do.
And so it was in no way, shape,or form titillating or pur
purient, like that dumb bitchwho wrote the article would like
to claim.
But it was...
It was straightforward withoutbeing frightening and it really

(35:01):
cleared stuff up for Jesse andAlexa.
It showed pictures of, you know,what naked bodies look like and,
but it was done in a verycartoony style.
In fact, I'm 90 percent surethat I read other books that
that illustrator did, uh, uh,illustrations for, but it was
just this great helpful tool.
that sort of explains sexualityin babies without being

(35:24):
something that either sexualizedthe children, like, like dumb
bitch, uh, number two claims,but it was a way to provide
information on an ageappropriate level without
scaring the shit out of some kidby talking about something, you
know, it's not like you plunkedhim down and turned on porn and

(35:45):
this is the kind of shit thatthey're going after because it's
like, yes, okay, technically youcould state that this is
sexually explicit because this.
Explicitly explains what sex is,but it's done in an age
appropriate, non erotic way toanswer questions that every
child has.
And the fact that these fuckingbitches want to mix all of this

(36:07):
shit in together like it's allthe same, like, uh, pornography,
it's, it's inappropriate, it'sappropriate.
It was designed specifically forthis audience and mind, in, in,
to be the least traumatizing.
way to disseminate informationin the first place.
And so the fact that thesemorons would like to keep their,

(36:27):
not just their children, buteveryone's children basically
trapped in, you know, the dark,that the only light is by the
books that they burn is like,fuck you, bitch.
That's not happening on mywatch.
I'll be damned first.

EJ (36:43):
You

Stacy (36:43):
make a good point though, Stacey.
Go ahead.
It just makes me so angry thatsomebody would look at such a
lovely little book with just thebest intentions and just the
nicest way to explain sexualityto small children and would try
and turn it into somethingdirty.
It says more about them as aperson than it does about the

(37:04):
book itself.
I

Amy (37:07):
am in agreement with you there.
But you did hit the nail on thehead, though, with regards to
the parental business, becauseyes, These parents can be
concerned about what theirchildren are reading, not
everyone else though.
Exactly.
That is where they arecompletely overstepping.

(37:27):
Yes, you can keep your children,your two children, Mary Sue and
Bobby Joe over there, you cankeep them from reading it.
You cannot keep Maria, daughterof Susan, from reading

EJ (37:40):
it.

Stacy (37:40):
Exactly.
And that's so enraging, becauseit's like, could you just focus
on traumatizing your own kids,so that when they're 16, you
know, your daughter runs out andjumps into the first same sex
relationship she can have, moreto spite you than because she
actually has same sex leanings?
Like, could you just get on withdriving your children away and
leave everybody else's kidsalone?

Amy (38:01):
There are so many lists that include that sort of thing,
where basically the parents werejust far too overprotective or
too sheltering, and then oncethe child, once the child has
reached adulthood, they go hogwild once they have

Stacy (38:15):
that freedom.
Absolutely! Of course they do.
It's, it's the joke thateverybody ever said about how
the wildest kids in school werethe preacher's kids.
It's, it's that same thing.
When you grow up in arepressive, denying household,
when you're suddenly allowedaccess to everything you were
denied, you're gonna glutyourself.
I did the same damn thing

EJ (38:35):
when I got away from my parents.
Yeah.
It's, and it's a hard thing toput kids into, and I think this
is, uh, uh, this is kind of a, athing that I've noticed in some
American public libraries.
Uh, they sort of see librariesas this extended daycare of

(38:56):
sorts.
Yes.

Stacy (38:59):
Oh, I'm sure Amy has many horror stories about that.
It's actually

Amy (39:02):
gonna answer the second part of ejs question.
Oh boy.

EJ (39:06):
Excellent.

Amy (39:09):
All right.
Excuse my laughter.
I'm sorry.
But it, it's, it's all too true.
Yes, there is that mentality inquite a few community members in
America that public librariesare seen as an extension of the
daycare.
They are not.
So, in regards to the, thelibrary is not a safe place for

(39:29):
children, quote, this is likelya truncated statement.
I am going to rectify that.
The library is not a safe placefor unattended children.

EJ (39:41):
Yes.
Cheers to that.
Which is

Stacy (39:44):
probably what the librarian said in the first
place.

Amy (39:48):
Most likely, but library staff can't stand in as parent
or guardian for minors in thelibrary.
Parents are made aware of thisbecause policies are posted that
require all minors, usuallyunder 13, to be accompanied by a
guardian or parent.
Any number of things couldhappen in a library, a public

(40:09):
space.
The library serves everyone inthe public.

Stacy (40:14):
Yep, not just some overprivileged assholes
children.

Amy (40:20):
Not to mention there could be any number of disasters that
could happen.
There's a tornado, there couldbe a tornado warning and your
child is at the library.
What are they supposed to do?
The libraries will most likelycall the police.
If they cannot find, if theycannot locate the guardian or
parents, the child would need tobe put into

Stacy (40:41):
custody.
Yeah,

Amy (40:42):
yes, exactly.
The child need to be put intocustody because We cannot, we
are not responsible for thischild.
Um, but it isn't the job oflibrary staff to parent
children, as that is what theparent is for.
Right,

Stacy (40:56):
what a novel thought.

EJ (40:58):
That is kind of an interesting paradox here,
because these particular motherssound like they're very
concerned about their kids.
And at the same time, there is avery jaded part of me.
And part of that has been, uh,you know, spending my whole life
in libraries in some way oranother.
Like, it's almost always.
The, the ones who give thelibrary staff the most grief are

(41:23):
almost always the ones who givethe library staff the most grief
in other ways.
Yep, double meaning in thatphrase.

Stacy (41:40):
Yep.

EJ (41:41):
Sure.
I, you know, I've, I've yet tomeet a responsible, likable
library patron.
Who is also the same sort ofperson who makes their problems
the library's problems.
Exactly.
This does not make them anunconcerned patron.
This does not make them aunengaged patron.

(42:02):
Uh, this makes them afunctioning member of a society.
And that's all I'm going

Stacy (42:09):
to

EJ (42:09):
give them, you know, what can I say?
Like, so I would be terriblycurious.
I, of what the new run feltlibrarians who've ever met these
women would have to say abouttheir experiences with them
again.
This is like, the very jadedskeptical part of me and I would

(42:32):
not want any of those librariansto go on record.
I do want to ask a slightly morepositive sounding question, Amy,
since, you know, it's been alittle bit heavy.
What do you think are librariesresponsibility to provide
diverse materials while adheringto community standards?
Uh.

Amy (42:51):
A great

EJ (42:52):
question.
It sounds so policy like, butalso it's like, it did bring out
the inner, like, wannabelibrarian in me.
I'm like, tell us of ourresponsibility to diversity.

Amy (43:07):
Honestly, EJ, I consider you a fellow information
professional.
Technically, I would also putStacey there too, considering
the dearth of books that shereads.
Right?

Stacy (43:22):
To be fair, I do have a degree in history, so I have
gathered a fair share of, uh,information.

EJ (43:29):
There you

Amy (43:29):
go.
All right.
So, the main area of librariesis in service, as in service to
their community.
All of it.
No community is going to havethe same life experiences nor
the same level of knowledge.
It is the task of librarians toresearch and locate materials

(43:50):
that will serve theircommunity's needs, whether that
is informational, creative, orentertaining.
And I'm going to be getting intosomething that is really
personal to me, and I thinkIt's, it's actually something
that I had read about inprevious articles from either
school library journal or, orbook list.

(44:10):
I can't remember which one itwas, but books serve as both
mirrors and windows, allowing usto find ourselves and also to
understand others from differentwalks of life.
This helps to build empathy forothers who have had different
life experiences from us.
Books can help remove the fearof the other.

EJ (44:32):
Yep.
Actually, cheers to that.
That does actually hit mepersonally, too.
By the way, that wholestatement, that could have been
like a library's, like, missionstatement for their year, which
sounds great.
100%.
It would cause a ruckus, but Iwould love it.
Oh, yeah.
Um, you know, as, as aconstituent and citizen, I'd be

(44:54):
like, oh, yeah, um, and also ithits me personally I'll probably
keep on saying it because theymade race a thing in this
article.
So I'm going to make race athing in my commentary.
Um, I grew up in an all whitecommunity and it wasn't until
college that I talked to anyonewho was not white in a non
service, non professionalcapacity.

(45:16):
Which I remember when I toldthat to one of my black
professors and she was like, areyou freaking kidding me?
Blew her mind.
And I'm like, that is normal.
Your reaction is normal.
But I'm going to tell youprobably the biggest saving
grace I had was I had a mother.
Who insisted I had raciallydiverse books.

(45:37):
So even when I didn't have asocially diverse world, I was
surrounded by stories where nonwhite children were normal and
celebrated.
And that, I think, helped a lot.
That, and also, I was a 90s kid,so I grew up with Reading
Rainbow, and Lamar Burton islike Mr.

(45:58):
Rogers to me.
I

Amy (46:01):
love

EJ (46:01):
that man.
So, you know, I'm over here,like, non white role models are
so huge, including for littlewhite girls, like I was.
Agree.

Stacy (46:14):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
And also Lamar Burton's been onthe air since, uh.
Well, before I was old enough towatch reading rainbow.
So I, too, grew up

EJ (46:23):
watching reading rainbow.
Same

Amy (46:25):
here.
I love

EJ (46:27):
that, man.
Hell, yeah, but yeah, goodstatement there.
Amy.
I like it.
I wasn't

Amy (46:32):
quite finished.
There was a little

EJ (46:33):
bit more.

Amy (46:38):
All right.
To continue, and hopefully intomy conclusion for this question,
libraries need to provide manyvoices, especially in stories.
And as communities change andgrow, the library must do so as
well.
And I think one of the biggestissues in certain communities is

(47:00):
they're not accepting that sortof change in their community.
Yeah.
They think that it's all thelily white still.
When in fact it is not.

EJ (47:11):
I happen to actually have a really great for the, for the
listeners in our audience whowould like a really like
hardcore academic Work on whybooks get censored.
I have a really good, um,recommendation and it's, and for

(47:31):
the record, I'm bias, prettymuch anything and everything
written by Dr.
Emily Knox, who is currently onfaculty for the library school,
also known as the eye school atthe University of Illinois and
Urbana Champaign.
She has built up an entirecareer.
Over, uh, researching andwriting about book censorship

(47:54):
and in fact she touches on that,

Amy (47:58):
I definitely know the name.

EJ (48:00):
I will throw that in the show notes because Dr.
Emily Knox is just a overallgood person to know about in, in
not just the library world.
and she's, she's a fellow shorthaired gal like myself, which is
another fun thing about her, Ithink.
Um, but, um, but yeah, uh, Greatperson to know for the library

(48:22):
world.
Also a great person to know formy fellow Americans because her
focus has been on Americanculture.
Super cool.
So, uh, anyway, good person.
I will throw her in the shownotes.
Love it.
Uh, man, if you, if y'all wereexpecting a bunch of sex, I
mean, you, you are getting somesex, just maybe not in the way

(48:44):
you might have been expectingit.
I

Stacy (48:46):
mean, I read a book where a woman ends up with a polar
bear shifter and...
You know, they have sex whilehe's in his polar bear form and
I'm okay

EJ (48:54):
with it.
That's on my TBR because I thinkI know what you're talking

Stacy (48:58):
about.
Yes, a polar, uh, a polarexpedition.
Yes.
Yeah, he is so fucking good.
The way it's written, the wayit's written is great because it
is footnotes galore and thefootnotes are

EJ (49:10):
usually hilarious.
It looks like a really funwinter read.
Oh, very cool.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Uh, one more question I've gotfor you, Amy.
Um, at least one more.
can you share insights into thespecific books mentioned in the

(49:30):
article, including theircategorization and availability
in the library?
And also, are there any otherdark materials you would like to
recommend?

Amy (49:41):
SO, the biggest insight I can share about most of the
titles mentioned, either in thetext or in the photos included
in the article, is that themajority were given a starred
review by one or moreprofessional reviewers.
Now, to clarify, a starredreview is a very coveted thing

(50:03):
in the library world.
To receive one is to pretty muchhave the seal of approval from
whichever journal that reviewcame from.
I will say that the one that isthe most coveted is the Kirkus
Review starred.

Stacy (50:21):
Review.
Yeah, I even I think I'vedefinitely heard of the Kirkus
Review

EJ (50:25):
before.
Yes,

Stacy (50:26):
and I'm not, I'm not a librarian, so.

EJ (50:29):
Kirkus

Amy (50:30):
is definitely one of the most prominent of reviewing
journals in the library industryand they do not pull their
punches.
Oftentimes, oftentimes.
While everyone, every otherreview journal will have
positive, positive, positive,oftentimes they will have the

(50:53):
negative or the meh review.
They are, they are very, theyscrutinize.
But anyways, um, children,speaking of scrutinization,
children's books.
are scrutinized even more sothan adult marketed materials.

(51:14):
The reviewers are thorough intheir assessment of these
materials, especially nonfiction titles.
Educational materials must beable to share accurate and
reliable information in a waythat is readable for the
intended age group.
This, I believe, also includesany images or pictures used.

(51:34):
And this is actually where I geta lot of my issues.
Regarding the books that they'rementioning the images that
they're talking about thatthey're talking about are as
Stacy pointed out theirillustrations almost claymation
like in some regard, um, one ofthe books was the very first one

(51:56):
that I mentioned on there is sexis a funny word and there's
another thing I want to mentionabout this.
And I actually want to bring upmy.
Copy, because I checked it out.
I checked it out because Iwanted to be sure that I could
at least give some Some insighton this particular

EJ (52:14):
book.
Are you gonna appreciate that?
Heck yeah.

Amy (52:19):
But it's called sex is a funny word from Gary Silverberg
and Fiona Smythe or Smith Icannot I don't know how she
pronounces it.
But anyways

EJ (52:30):
Oh, is it that Smith with the Y?
Yes.
Oh, yeah.
I never know how to, I have,I've never known how to
pronounce it.
I kind of have to ask.
I always have to ask.
Just because you,

Stacy (52:39):
that's interesting.

EJ (52:40):
Yeah.

Amy (52:42):
All right.
So, Sex is a Funny Word, a bookabout bodies, feelings, and you.
So, right before the bookactually starts.
To the grown up reader.
This is a very different kind ofbook.
Let me actually get this a bitbigger so I can actually read

(53:03):
it.
Most books about sex are full ofanswers.
Answers can be helpful andreassuring, but they also tell
us what to think and even how tothink instead of encouraging us
to think for ourselves and tohonor our own knowledge and
experience.
Most books about sex focus onlyon reproduction and intercourse.

(53:24):
You'll find neither of thesetopics in our book, What Makes a
Baby?
The first book in this series,geared towards younger readers,
is about reproduction.
The next book, following thisone for older readers, will
include information onintercourse.
By the way, this book istechnically a juvenile non
fiction book.
So basically that would be...

(53:45):
I want to say typically thatfalls within grades three
through five.
Um, anyways, sex education ismore than science and the so
called facts of life.
I believe the most importantpart of sex education is
exploring and sharing ourfeelings, values, and beliefs,
and helping kids connect whatthey learn to their communities,

(54:08):
um, histories, families, andcultures.
That's what this book allows youto do.
We provided the framework andbasic information about bodies.
Gender and touch, and we've leftblanks that only you and the
kids in your life can fill in.
The truth is that sex is a funnyword, but it's also a
complicated one, so meaningfulconversations about sex might

(54:30):
not always feel easy or fun, buthaving them prepares all of us
for life as it is.
Sex is a funny word is here tohelp.
How to use this book.
This book is meant to be readover weeks, months, and years,
rather than just a few sittings.
You'll find that it sparksdifferent conversations at

(54:50):
different ages and stages.
Before you read the book withchildren or give it to children
to read on their own, read itthrough yourself.
Pay attention to the questionpages at the ends of each
chapter.
Think through your own answersor responses to those questions
and think about how you wouldaddress those questions with a
child.

(55:10):
This is especially important forthe last chapter in section four
called Secret Touch, which dealswith sexual abuse.
This is a difficult topic forall of us.
We don't want to imagine ourchildren being sexually
victimized.
And many of us have our ownexperiences of sexual harassment
and violence, which we can'thelp but bring to mind when

(55:32):
thinking about the safety ofchildren in our lives.
Read over this chapter carefullybefore reading with a young
person, and give yourself timeand permission to respond on
your own before you try to readit with a child.
Throughout the book, when youreach a question page, share
your answers.
If the children you are readingwith aren't ready to share their
own, don't pressure them.

(55:54):
If you are patient and make roomfor kids to choose when to talk,
eventually they will.
Unique features of this book,fun and interactive.
Each, or every chapter beginswith a comic and ends with a
question page or activity page.
If kids want to skip ahead, letthem.
There's always time to go backlater.
Jargon free.
I love this.

(56:14):
We avoid using terminology andidentity labels whenever
possible to make room for thedifferent ways we describe
ourselves.
But we've also offered aglossary in the back of the book
with words that can be hard toexplain.
No pressure.
Again, I love this.
The only sexual activity in thisbook is masturbation in Touching
Yourself, Section 4.

(56:34):
We'll address more behaviors inthe last book in this series.
Sex is a Funny Word was writtenand illustrated based on
hundreds of conversations withchildren, parents, families, and
professionals.
We've included more resourcesand tips on talking with kids
about sex in a free reader'sguide, which is available at
their website.
Our work is always made richerthrough feedback, and we welcome

(56:56):
your comments and questions.
Thanks for reading CoreySilverberg.

EJ (57:02):
So that sounds like an awesome book.
I mean, for me as a parent witha toddler who's growing up.
So actually like their, theirprevious one, uh, the, the one
that's just on reproductive,what makes a baby, what makes a
baby, uh, that is actually on myto buy list.
My kid, I was too young, uh, foranything that is a proper paper

(57:24):
book.
Um, we are a board book onlyhouse right now.
Um, so way too young.
Uh, but I, I, that one I knowalso has really good reviews.
And I think like, really, thereis something key that was
constantly being mentionedthere.
Maybe not right, not mentionedoutright, but I think really key

(57:47):
it is.
This is supposed to be a journeythat parents are supposed to
help guide and be active in.
Correct.
They're not some sort of,they're not trying to make some
sort of rules from on high ofthis is how it's got to be and
then they just let the kids goin this whatever sort of walled

(58:09):
garden they imagine the world orlibraries to be.
Okay.
This is Something that you haveto do with your child.
And I think that can be reallyhard when you are in a sexually
repressed culture.
Yep.
And, and honestly, I suspectthat's the real root of the
issue there.
It's not just a sexually

Stacy (58:29):
repressive culture, but it's the

EJ (58:31):
aspects of the culture that want to make it even, even more
repressive.
Right.
I do admit It's the same shitthat

Stacy (58:37):
teaches, you know, abstinence only and that kind of
bullshit.

EJ (58:40):
Yeah, I admit growing up in a family with nurses, public
school teachers, social workers,that one particular aspect of
arming children with knowledgeand lack of shame regarding
things like sexual assault, thatis a huge safety issue to me.
That I, to this day, I willnever understand why some

(59:03):
parents want to shy away fromthat because it is a scary
common thing in American cultureright now for many children to
be sexually molested.
And part of what these predatorsare hoping for is shame to be on
their side.
Yep.
100%.

Amy (59:22):
I did want to point out in the reviews, um, School Library
Connection reviews, did say thiswas geared for grades six
through eight.
I'm wondering if they meant agessix to eight because everyone
else says non fiction seven totwelve.

Stacy (59:38):
That language seems very...

Amy (59:39):
Ages seven to ten, um, grades two through six.
I'm like, eh,

EJ (59:46):
This is as judgy mom as I'm going to get.
Your mileage will vary, butthat's okay if you know and are
involved in your child's life.
Exactly.
I really try to avoid being thejudgy mom because, you know,
karma and all that jams.
That's true.
But I really hope that ifsomeone saw me being a
repressive parent, they wouldstop me from being an idiot.

(01:00:09):
Yes.

Amy (01:00:12):
Okay, so back to, um, the inside of the titles mentioned.
Most are intended for a teenaudience.
Those who are in grades 7through 12, namely middle and
high school.
They are still considered youth,but they are on the cusp of
entering adulthood, and theyneed to be prepared for what
they will see and experience,because it won't always reflect

(01:00:35):
their background or childhood.

EJ (01:00:37):
Absolutely!

Amy (01:00:39):
Now, there was one title in there they mentioned that was...
E labeled, um, I'm categorizingthat as easy reader, um, all of
the professional reviewers andthis book was, um, hang on, let
me go back, go to where it is.
This book is called Bodies AreCool by Tyler Fetter and all of
the professional reviewersagreed that this was a book for

(01:01:02):
younger readers.
Kirkus rated it for Ages 3 to10, school library journal,
preschool through grade 3, booklist, preschool to grade 2,
publishers weekly, 3 to 5 yearsold.
And basically, this is a Toquote what Kirkus says, It's a
bustling celebration of bodypositivity that lovingly

(01:01:25):
features bodies, skin, and hairof all kinds.
Big bodies, small bodies,dancing, playing, happy bodies.
Look at all these differentbodies! Bodies Are Cool begins
this engaging picture bookextolling the variety and
splendor of human bodies ingentle sing song text.

(01:01:45):
And personally, I wish there hadbeen a book like this to teach
me and others that there is nostandard body or appearance.
And perhaps I wouldn't

EJ (01:01:55):
have been made for being

Amy (01:01:57):
a bigger girl than most of my classmates.

Stacy (01:02:00):
Well, or, you know, that nice case of body dysmorphia
that I'm still fighting in my

EJ (01:02:05):
fucking forties.
That'll get you good.
I don't care who you are.

Amy (01:02:10):
Yes, but there were a lot of great reviews on that one.
I mean, Kirkus was very happywith it.
School Library Journal, veryhappy with it.
Booklist, also PublishersWeekly, all of them.
gave it high praise, andconsidering that area of the
library is typically very, veryscrutinized, that is, that's,

(01:02:34):
That is a, a commendment to thisparticular book, and it can be
read very easily, and even onthe cover you get different
examples of people.
You have this one girl who has aprosthetic leg and also no
shaved legs, and of course fatwomen in, in bikinis, and fat
men, and skinny men, and littlebabies, and looks like a trans

(01:02:57):
man there too.
I mean, honestly, it just helps.
Kids understand that the worldis not a

EJ (01:03:07):
fishbowl.

Stacy (01:03:08):
Right, and it's not only, it's not, that's what I'm
looking for, there's, we don'tjust have two types.
Yes, homogenous.
A skinny woman and a skinny manand anybody who, who doesn't.
dwell within thosespecifications are bad or wrong.
Instead, it's showing that weare a spectrum of shapes,

(01:03:32):
colors, and sizes, and that's

EJ (01:03:34):
okay, that's good.
Yes.

Amy (01:03:39):
Um, all right.
So only one title on, on thelist was marketed for an adult
audience by the vendor that Iconsulted.
However, professional, uh, this,this is actually We Can't
Breathe by Jabari Asim on BlackLives, White Lies, and the Art
of Survival.
Um, professional reviewersagreed it was also a suitable

(01:04:02):
text for high school students ormature teens.
Um, it was also, it, this is,this is what I got from the New
Braunfels Public LibraryCatalog.
It's part of the Black LivesMatter YA reading list.
And it was also a finalist forthe Penn Diamonstein Spielvogel
Award for the Art of the Essay.

(01:04:24):
I have never heard of thataward.

EJ (01:04:26):
I know Penn.
Sounds fancy.

Amy (01:04:28):
I've never heard of that second portion of it.
But anyways, that really sayssomething there.

EJ (01:04:34):
Um, anyways.
And of course that makes sense.
American history in regards toracial justice and racial issues
is full of violence.
I do admit it is a personalthing of mine.
I feel less comfortable aboutexposing my kid to violent media
than sexual media.

(01:04:55):
Yep.
That's me.
Um, I could go into detail why.
Um, but in short, I get it.

Amy (01:05:07):
I do want to read a little bit of some of the reviews.
Um, let's see.
So, Library Journal, theirverdict was it's a highly
accessible book that would servehigh school and college
classrooms well in continuingthe conversation about civil
rights and social justice.
And then School Library Journalsaid, It's sure to spur the

(01:05:28):
conversation on race andidentity.
This is a strong addition to anycollection for mature teens,
especially as a supplement tohistory texts.
That have left out the storiesand voices of people of color
and honestly, that's, that'samazing praise

EJ (01:05:47):
there.
Yeah, that is amazing.
Once again, we will put in alist of all the books that the
Texas scorecard recommended forus.
Um, and

Amy (01:06:04):
as well as reviews of at least

EJ (01:06:07):
five of them, and we will include the professional
reviews.
From highly reputable librarysources, which no doubt the New
Brunfels librarians were readingwhen they were in the middle of
their book acquisition.
I have to say, like, uh, youknow, in kind of a, you know,
towards wrapping up thisepisode, I'm kind of walking

(01:06:29):
away with a conclusion of, soyou're telling me the New
Brunfels librarians do theirresearch and homework and try to
get, uh, their patrons highquality texts that are age
appropriate.
Yes.
At least that's what I'm saying.
That's what I'm hearing.
And I do think that's actually areally important point, and I

(01:06:49):
suppose it's very useful,really, for our audience to
appreciate, while I understandwe're preaching to the choir, in
many ways.
Here, this is not an unsafeaudience to mention this to, so
I don't, to me, this is not auseful thing to be like, we're

(01:07:10):
going to change your hearts andminds.
This is far more of a, hey,heads up, there is this whacked
up part.
Of our country that use thingsin this way and a lot of this I
cannot emphasize enough.
A lot of this is based off offear and this idea always based
off of fear.
Yes.

(01:07:31):
Always.
Yep.
And I, and I, I feel it'simportant to mention that
whenever they are talking aboutit's going to corrupt our kids,
it's going to be do awful stuffto our youth.
They don't get specific.
Why is reading about black kidsbeing kits?
A threat.
Right.
Why is learning about what itmeans to be a transgender child

(01:07:53):
a threat?
They don't go into detail.
It just is.
And by contrast, we have, uh, wehave cited sources.
We have data to be over here andsay, like, it's okay.
These are actually wellresearched, well considered

(01:08:13):
books.
Um, and always the, the best wayto.
Avoid fear is, is knowledge, inmy opinion, when it comes to
humans, because if there'ssomething that humans don't fear
the most, it's what we don'tunderstand.
And the best way to fight whatyou don't understand is through
education.
So the knowledge is the

Stacy (01:08:35):
torch in the darkness of ignorance.
I can't remember, but I'm, I'mdoing a hatchet job, but I know
that's a

EJ (01:08:42):
quote from somebody.
You got the spirit of it.

Amy (01:08:45):
Exactly.
It comes across just fine,

EJ (01:08:47):
Stacey.
Absolutely.
Thank you.

Amy (01:08:49):
I was terrified.
I'm, I'm still scared ofspiders, but it's really not
being afraid, afraid.
It's just like, don't get on me.
My

Stacy (01:08:56):
God, you're so creepy.
Right, right.
I don't like the way you move,but

EJ (01:09:00):
realistically, what's...
A house fighter gonna do to me,you know?
Right.
So I kind of hope thisdiscussion helped our listeners
feel a little bit more, uh,armed and prepared because this
is not going to end anytimesoon.
Yeah, the Texas.
Law on, uh, making, publicschool library vendors.

(01:09:25):
Goodness, it's such a, it's sucha, it sounds like it's niche,
but it's not.
But I admit I'm enough of anerd.
I read the damn law.
Um, and it's scary how quick ofa read it is.
I am also going to link it inour show notes so y'all can see

(01:09:46):
it straight from the Texas stategovernment's website.
Um, it will find it as shorttoo.
And it's very broad.
And yeah, which again, it's bydesign, um, well, in any, in any
sense, also by design, if itgoes forward, how many activists

(01:10:10):
in America tend to do is if onelaw takes off in one state,
especially in Big state likeTexas and it's successful,
copycats will follow.
So for my fellow Americans outthere, this is about a
political, so I'm probably, Ihope to ever get on this
podcast.
Um, I encourage you to prepareyourselves and just be aware.

(01:10:35):
Yeah.
And not, this is not to instillfear, but I hope that there is,
there are things that you canknow and, and understand what
we're up against.

Stacy (01:10:46):
More a way to point out we got a problem here and less.
Less fear mongering, becauselike you said, the best way to
combat fear is througheducation, and I'm going to
educate these motherfuckersupside their head with a
dictionary, if that's

EJ (01:10:59):
what I have to do.

Amy (01:11:01):
It's about making our public aware,

EJ (01:11:04):
and that's all it is.
Exactly, that's absolutely it.
So, yeah, stay well readeveryone.
We'll talk to you later.
Yes, and don't be dumb.
And keep reading! Yes,

Stacy (01:11:18):
and if you need some smut recommendations, let us know.

EJ (01:11:21):
We got a couple titles we can give you.
Oh, yeah.
Yes, please do.
We're not done talking aboutsmut.
Don't you all worry.
Hell no!