#112 Dave Rosenberg - How Leaders Remove Obstacles and Create Success - Tales of Leadership

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So we got to get strong at wherever our weakness
is, and that's the second phase.
And then you hit that, and nowyou start performing to your
point Okay, well, you get reallygood at that.
And then right, you start toreap the rewards at it.
But now you're just, you'resort of in that groove.
Well, in life, you're eithergrowing or you're dying.
There is no steady state inlife.

(00:23):
So if you stop growing, youstop challenging yourself.
The next phase is just dying.
I don't care how old you are, ifyou stop pushing yourself,
you're rolling down that slopeand at some point you're going
to come to the end, right,because second law of
thermodynamics, everything goesto entropy, even us.
Without adding energy to asystem, everything degrades to

(00:44):
chaos, to entropy, to dust,right.
But if, however, you have thatmindset, now you reap the
rewards of whatever this newthing is, and then you sit there
and you go, okay, what's mynext evolution, what's my next
challenge?
Now you're back in that winterseason again, where you're
letting those seeds germinateand go like, okay, what's next
for me?
And then the whole thing startsagain.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
You're listening to the Tells the Leadership podcast
.
This podcast is for leaders atany phase on their leadership
journey to become a morepurposeful and accountable
leader what I like to call a pal.
Join me on our journey togethertowards transformational
leadership.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
All right team.
Welcome back to the Tales ofLeadership podcast.
I am your host, josh McMillian.
I'm an army leadership coachand the founder of McMillian
Leadership Coaching and yourhost for the Tales of Leadership
podcast, and I'm on a mission.
I want to become the bestpossible leader that I can, and
I will do that by bringing onwhat I like to call purposeful,

(01:44):
accountable leaders, on thosewho lead with intention,
integrity and impact.
I also grow through self-study,learning leadership habits and
journaling through my experience, and I'm going to share all of
that through the lens of myleadership, and my goal is to
impact one million lives in thenext 10 years by sharing their
passion and their purpose andsharing my stories.

(02:06):
And I do all of that a hundredpercent free, as charged.
So before we begin, I want toremind you some free tools that
you have at your disposal.
Number one isMcMillianLeadershipCoachingcom
slash Tales of Leadership.
You can find every podcastepisode, every leadership
article to include summarizedkey points.

(02:28):
If you want to listen to thepodcast, you can go to
talesofleadershipbuzzsproutcomand you'll be able to find every
one of my episodes there toinclude your preferred method.
And then make sure yousubscribe to McMillian
Leadership Coaching.
You subscribe to McMillianLeadership Coaching.
You'll be notified when newpodcast articles get released,
but specifically you'll benotified when new leadership

(02:49):
articles are released once amonth.
But today I'm super excitedbecause I am bringing on someone
that is very inspiring.
We had a very good conversationthat lasted for almost an hour
and 40 minutes, and that'salways the barometer of a good
podcast episode.
For me is how long it goes.

(03:09):
The longer they are, the moreinquisitive I become.
I'm quickly learning that I'mbecoming like a little mini Joe
Rogan.
But on this episode we'rebringing on Dave Rosenberg.
He is a dynamic speaker andauthor and a podcast host known
for his expertise in radicalaccountability.

(03:30):
He has over 30 years ofpractical leadership experience
and has led four majororganizations and worked within
over 100 companies acrossvarious industries.
Dave's leadership journey beganin the Navy, where he learned
the power of inspiring othersunder pressure.
He combines his militarydiscipline and martial arts

(03:53):
training to help businessesbuild strong, accountable teams.
His book Locked on Leadershipprovides practical advice on
creating a culture ofconsistency, courage and caring.
Dave's engaging keynotepresentations motivate and
empower teams to reach theirfull potential and, as always,
team stay to the very end, andI'm going to provide you what my

(04:15):
top three takeaways are Dave,welcome to the Tales of
Leadership podcast.
Brother, how are you doing?

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Good Joshua, Thanks for digging that intro music.
It just gets you in that mood.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, I do that every time and I think it catches
some of the guests off center.
But the reason I do that is itreframes me, it puts me in the
center of mind, like, hey, thisnext hour, or however long it's
going to take, I'm having anintentional conversation with a
pal which I like to call like apurposeful, accountable leader,
and you got me for the next hour, so I get in my mindset right.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
I mean that is solid performance right.
Nlp, neuro-linguisticprogramming and you see
ballplayers, high-levelballplayers do that all the time
where they have a routine,because it gets the mind in that
space, and so that's just greatperformance right there yeah,
that's so.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
That's a great point of like just kicking it off
right there.
Could you?
I don't think I've ever heardof that before, could you?
Could you do a deeper dive onthat?

Speaker 1 (05:15):
yeah, and I'm no expert on this, but the
neuroscience of performancetells us that you know it's
about habits and you think aboutthe things we do on a better,
on a really well, it's when youget in that zone where you are a
hundred percent present, right.
So I'm sure, I'm sure you'vebeen an athlete in your career,
right?

(05:35):
Yeah what was your sport?
uh, so football and wrestlingwere my top two sports so when
you're wrestling and wrestlingis a great example of this print
, because martial arts you thinkabout this.
People talk about martial arts.
They say it reduces stress, butthe reality is, and you're in
the business right now martialarts is about not dying and

(05:56):
killing the other guy, right, Imean that's.
You know, at the end of the day, we're not talking about sport,
we're talking about reality.
And so how can that reducestress?
Well, to successful fighting,you have to be in the flow in
that zone, which means you are ahundred percent present, right,
you're not worried about like,oh, what's he going to do?
You might be reacting to it,but you're not worried about it.

(06:18):
Or, like, I blew that move,you're just, you're there, a
hundred percent there, andthere's no stress in the present
.
And so the way we get our mindsthere is by going through
routines which help us disengageour prefrontal cortex, which is
where we think and processstuff, because we don't want to
be thinking, we want to bereacting and just being.

(06:38):
And so when you get into aroutine, as my understanding,
you start tap like showering.
Think about when you shower,right, you do the same thing
every time and then freeze themind up and then you have all
these really wonderful insightsdrop in.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
It's kind of the same science here.
I I love that.
Um, it's funny like I've I'vejust picked up on that
throughout my military career,like I have routines and habits
that I've done to kind of setthe conditions before I go and
act.
But I've never kind of lookedat it from like a neuroscience
point of view is that there'sthings I'm probably doing
subconsciously that is helpingme be more present in the moment

(07:15):
of whatever I'm about to do.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, when I was flying right, we'd go through
pre-flight routines and it wasall rote and to take, take off,
we would probably man up 45minutes ahead of time.
So 45 minutes to get theaircraft started.
Now, on deployment, we're onalert five.
We.
That means we have five minutes, and usually it's about three

(07:39):
minutes from engine start tobooming off the front end
because something's going on.
And so how do you take 45minutes and compress it into
into three?
Well, you do it because you dosome things ahead of time.
But then it's the routine.
You're like boom, boom and allof a sudden spidey sense goes
off because something's off.
And it's because you're in thatroutine that you're able to

(08:01):
receive that.
You're like, oh crap, I missedsomething or oh right, so then
you.
Then you start analyzing what'swrong, you learn to listen and
tune into those senses and Isuspect you know combat
deployment.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
You probably have very similar things going on
yeah, I still find myself doingthings that I've learned that's
probably not good habits that Ideveloped in afghanistan, just
with, like different ids andthings like that and hearing
like sounds, the specific soundsthat always kind of like puts
my head back on a swivel, and,yeah, that there's things that

(08:34):
I've developed, probably notnecessarily for the best, but
that I've learned through themilitary.
I'd love to kind of just start,dave, kind of setting the, the
parameter, if you will barometer, if you will, of like, what
leadership means to you, becauseI've had people across the

(08:56):
board within the DOD, coastGuard, navy and the Marine Corps
and within the civilian side,and I love starting off with
just you defining leadership inyour terms of how you've learned
it throughout your life in yourterms of how you've learned it
throughout your life.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
Sure, and I mean, give a little backstory on this,
because you know, my militarycareer was roughly seven years
as an officer and then 30 yearsin civilian leadership, and what
I've come to realize is thatleadership is about really
simple.
It's about developing people tobe their best and highest self
period done.
What I say in my book, forexample, is that our leadership

(09:31):
strategy, our strategicobjective, is to allow people to
become self-actualized, usingMaslow's hierarchy as a
framework.
Right, so people get to workdoing what they were born to do,
and then it's iterative to getthem to improve, help them
improve, set up the conditionsso they are constantly growing
and improving.
That's all leadership is.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
I love the concept because I use it all the time
within my current profession andacquisitions.
I work a lot with engineers andwe always look at development
of a hardware or software systemin this agile methodology and
really what it is is it'siterative development,
continuing to iterate onsomething until you improve it.

(10:13):
But if you look at it like howyou just talked about,
leadership is that as a selfwhich I think that's where
leadership starts is atourselves.
We're never going to fullymaster that, so we're always
iterating on that and we'reimproving and as we improve our
leadership skills, the scienceof being a great leader and the
art of being a great leader justimproves over time and we were

(10:37):
talking about before we evenkicked this off.
That's one of the reasons Ilove doing podcasts is I have
conversations with people whoare very like minded, but I
always leave with nuggets ofwisdom that I actively go out
and I employ in my military job.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, I think it was Hippocletus who said no man ever
steps in the same river twice,because the river is not the
same, nor is the man.
And if you think about thatfrom this iterative process
you're talking about, so we getto experience sometimes the same
thing multiple times in ourlives.
Right, it's a cyclical thingwhere we hit these sort of same
points, but every time we hitthem, the circumstances

(11:17):
themselves, the externalcircumstances are different and
we're different, so we get totake them on and it helps us
grow to that next level.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
And we're different so we get to take them on and it
helps us grow to that nextlevel.
So, bringing it back to thebeginning of your leadership
journey, I think, like maybebefore you even joined the Navy,
where did you see yourselfreally kind of growing and
becoming that like mindset ofradical accountability that
you're developed now, thatlocked on leadership that you
developed now as a child?
Like where did that start toformulate?

Speaker 1 (11:47):
it, you know, obviously, as a child, though if
you had said to me your radicalaccountability, you know I
wouldn't have had a clue whatyou're talking about.
But I think it started withself-leadership to your point
where it's just I've always, forwhatever reason and I couldn't
tell you where this began or whybut always just wanted to do my
best.
It was always about doing mybest.

(12:09):
It was just and not let me beclear here not being the best,
okay, although I'm competitive.
It was always about what was Idoing my best?
Was I giving everything?
You know, it was almost acontractual thing where you've

(12:29):
asked me to do something or I'vesaid you know, even in school I
sat in school.
It's sort of like I'm here inschool, I have to do my best,
right, I have to give all, eventeachers I hated.
I remember third and fourthgrade, two years in a row, two
terrible teachers, you know, andI was terrible at arithmetic
and spelling, and even though Iwas not motivated by them, it

(12:54):
was like, damn it, I'm going toget good at this.
And you know, I think thespelling not so much, but I got
really strong at arithmetic.
I mean, you know where numbersin my head, you know, led on to
becoming an engineer, where Ifell in love with it.
So it started there.
But I never, I didn't reallyhave an identity as a kid.

(13:15):
You know, if you had to, whoare you?
What do you want to be?
Those were meaninglessquestions to me, you know.
I just was.
I thought they were stupidquestions.
I just am.
I am what I am, you know,popeye sort of thing.
But I really think it startedin the Navy when I was assigned
to be a legal officer and thisis actually my signature keynote

(13:39):
around this story, and it's atrue story I had a sailor get
written up for dereliction ofduty and, as you and many
listeners know, that just meanshe wasn't doing his job right,
you know, and the chiefs weren'thappy and he was pretty new to
the squadron right out of aschool.
So you know, a third class pettyofficer is an electronic

(14:00):
technician working in the firstlieutenant's division, which
non-Navy types out there.
That's the janitor.
That's what we call the janitor.
I'm sure what I'm about to sayis the same in every branch,
which is, of course, the newbiesjoin the squadron of command
and they rarely get assigned towhatever their actual assigned
rating is or MOS is.
They get assigned doingsomething necessary while the

(14:21):
chief's trying to figure out whothey are, because we needed
people to clean.
And who are you going to assignto do cleaning?
The guys were proven.
No, they were either dirtbagswho are in trouble or the newbie
who are unknown, right so.
So he was all disgruntled aboutthat and I had to figure out how
to get him motivated.
You know was?
It was his first offense.
He wasn't going to article 13captain's mess, anything like

(14:42):
that.
It was just a conversation.
The chief, the chiefs tried.
They couldn't do it.
So it was my turn as a, you know, as a Lieutenant, and I talked
to him about how we were in inworkups, so getting ready for
deployment, how important it wasto have the squadron spaces
clean because of morale we'reworking 18 hour days, you know,
getting ready to deploy and howhe can directly affect the

(15:02):
morale of his shipmates and Iforgot about the.
So I had this conversation andI forget about it and I wouldn't
remember this.
This is 35 years ago.
I wouldn't remember this storyexcept for about nine, 10 months
later we're on our way backfrom deployment and in the Navy
they do this thing called TigerCruise, where friends and family
meet you in Pearl Harbor andget to ride the ship with you
back to your home port.

(15:23):
And my dad oh, it was amazing,so cool, and my dad flew out
there.
So my second deployment hedidn't make the first oh, he was
on first time and I was soexcited because we were really
close and I used to go to workwith him and now he was getting
to come to work with me and whenI go to pick him up at the
airport I was running latebecause it was our first day

(15:45):
back in US territory, in Hawaiiafter you know, six month
deployment, and I was up allnight, the night before you know
, having fun.
And so I'm late and I drive tothe airport to pick him up and
he's standing there with justtwo other people and this sailor
who I knew from around thesquadron but I didn't know he
never worked directly for me andhis father who was his tiger.

(16:08):
And as I say hi to my dad andsay hi to the sailor, I put my
dad in a Jeep and we're drivingaway in my rented car and my dad
looks at me and he goes.
That sailor has a lot ofrespect for you.
And I remember looking at himand going, confused, going what
are you talking about?
I barely know the guy, lookingat him and going, confused,
going.
What are you talking about?
I barely know the guy.
I know him to say hello in thesquadron, but you know.
And then he told me the storyabout how I counseled him from

(16:30):
the seller's perspective,followed by these words he
credits you with saving hiscareer.
So, 31 year old lieutenant, andI'm like, floored.
I'm like.
I just had a conversation withthe guy.
It it had so much impact on himand was virtually meaningless

(16:53):
to me until this moment.
But that's when I recognize how, as leaders, we have this
disproportionate impact onpeople by what we say and what
we do.
And that started the realjourney.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
That's a huge lesson that I wish I would have learned
earlier in my career when I wasjust starting out.
I think I'm interested to getyour perspective on this of how,
like a brand new officer, likea lieutenant type, levels of
responsibility versus the Navyand the Army, like a Lieutenant
type, levels of responsibilityversus the Navy and the army,
and I'll kind of just paint thepicture of mine.
But I a hundred percent agree,Like I was.

(17:29):
You know, go to ranger school,airborne school, all those
things you have to do to be acombat arms platoon leader.
I go to my unit, I take over myplatoon in Afghanistan after
they lost like 14 or 15 people.
So I met my platoon at mymemorial and that kind of helped
me shift my mindset of kind ofwhere I'm at now.

(17:49):
Cause before I always joked, ifyou ever watched um, we were
soldiers of all those differentlieutenants and there's that one
lieutenant that's just tryingto run up the hill to get.
That was me, um, before thatmoment.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, that was, that was the platoon that got that,
got lost.
It got separated and got lost.
That moment yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
That was, that was the platoon that got.
That got lost, it got separatedand got lost.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, a hundredpercent.
Like I was very I was veryselfish, I would say up to that
point.
And then when I saw like the,the platoon, and then the
company commander and theplatoon leaders, and then the
squad leaders and the teamleaders, and just the level of
raw emotion I realized, like inthat moment it stuck with me
ever since then is that, hey,I'm not the leader that this

(18:27):
organization needs right now.
I need to really look at myselfand I had some time to reflect
and then I pulled it together.
But I remember the level ofimpact that I had directly with
soldiers as a second lieutenantand a first lieutenant and up to
being a company commander thatI've lost.
That as now being as a secondlieutenant and a first
lieutenant and up to being acompany commander, that I've
lost.
That is now being a as a majorUm, but it's disproportionate.

(18:50):
When you first start your career, that is the most important
time of where you can actuallybegin to shape directly other
people's lives.
Uh, because then you grow andrank and title and you gain more
influence and more authority.
And what does that mean?
You get pulled away from yourpeople and that's just the the
nature of the beast, at least inthe army.
I would love like how?

(19:11):
How is that within the navy?
Is that similar?
I?

Speaker 1 (19:13):
think it's a little different, because so when I say
my navy lieutenant is o3, sowe're, I learned a lesson that a
captain um in the navy is notequal to a captain in the army.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
I'll tell you a funny story if you want to know that
yeah, no, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
I've heard many.
I'm navy captain so, and so youhear that all the time, because
I want to make sure oh six iscoming out loud and clear yep,
yeah, yeah but my point here isso you know as a, as a captain
in the army or the marine corps,you know as as a company
commander you got what a hundredsome odd bodies.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
You know souls you're responsible for um 120,
something like that yeah, Ithink my first command was 150
and second command was hhc, soit was different, but it was a
little over 200 yeah, versus anavy lieutenant who is going to
be a division officer or, yeah,division officer at that point,

(20:10):
maybe four branches, probablyhas the same number of bodies,
but it's different.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
The chiefs, they really run the show at that
point.
You know, and one of thelessons we learned I learned, I
should say I was taught veryspecifically is my job is not to
tell people what to do.
My job was to remove thebarriers preventing them from
doing it and what that meantmost.
And that was a really importantlesson for my entire civilian

(20:37):
career, because what it meantmost of the time had nothing to
do with work.
It was the distractions outsideof work that I had to help them
with.
So I I think we get a littledifferent perspective now.
When I was a branch officer,you know, because by the time
you get through flight trainingand you make it to the fleet,
I'm a jg, so I'm a firstlieutenant.

(20:58):
You know o2 at that point.
So you don't get thatexperience as an ensign, in
aviation at least.
It may be different as a shipdriver, you know, because they
are on the boat as ensigns,butter bars, so it's a little
different for us.
So you know, I learned thelesson.
You know heard the lesson and Idid.

(21:19):
You know I listened to it.
Listen to your chiefs, you knowthey're going to know what the
hell they're doing.
I'm sure you get the same thingin the Army.
Listen to your chiefs, you know.
You know they're going to knowwhat the hell they're doing.
I'm sure you get the same thingin the army.
Listen to your sergeant, but bythe time you're actually
leading men.
You know it's been a year and ahalf, it's been a couple of
years, and you know I was alwaysvery you know what do I do.
So you know, I mean I was atthe shop.

(21:39):
I was asking the guys, you know, show me what you.
And so they enjoyed me takingan interest in what they did,
cause a lot of the guys didn'tdo that, you know.
So I'd go, I'd go out there onthe flight line with them and
see, watch them and actually tryto do their job as best I can.
And that went a long way causeit showed an interest.
So that's really informed a lotwhat I do, because one of the
things I preach about all thetime to my clients is have those

(22:02):
one-to-ones with people not todiscover what's going on in the
shop, what's going on in thecompany, to discover what's
going on in them.
What are they want out of life?
What are they looking to do?
How do I help them achieve andsometimes that's helping them
achieve things meaning leavingthe company at some point
because their dream is to be achef or something like that.
So I try and bring thoseresources, but that goes a long

(22:25):
way with everybody.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
Have you ever heard the term?
So I'm reading a new book rightnow and I'm trying to like
really deep dive into theconcept of burnout, like what
leads to burnout, and there wasan interesting concept that came
out.
It's called hygiene theory.
Have you ever heard of that?

Speaker 1 (22:42):
No.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
So, as leaders, there's two different types of
things that we would want tocreate in an organization.
And, like as you're talking,like I.
I think that what you'reproviding is like that
psychological safety.
Um, so purpose of like hey, youhave something to do in this
company, your strength is beingaligned to a task but then also

(23:04):
the secondary things that wedon't need to worry about, like
am I going to get paid on time,will I work in a positive
environment and a climate and itwas interesting when it came up
as a hygiene theory, because mymind was totally on another
topic.
But what you just said, I think, is, is a huge, powerful tool
that anyone can use right now togo be a more purposeful leader,

(23:25):
just actually have genuineconversations and learn about
your people in your organization.
And when you started doing that, did you notice that you would
stand out from your peers?

Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yes, yeah.
So let me give you a real story.
I was running a moving companyand when I was hired as VP and
there was a gentleman who was amove coordinator, who grew up in
a bad part of San Diego Countyhe is former gangbanger sixth
grade education, okay, totalghetto, patois, the whole nine

(24:00):
yards, you know word, what it is.
And we were a high-end movingcompany, like we moved tony
robbins ex-wife, you know.
We had another.
We had another move wheresomebody had a collection of
15th century russian iconpaintings that we brought in
right, so really high dollarstuff.
He's on the phone with some ofthese people, you know, speaking
ghetto, and I first I rememberjust thinking, oh my god, you

(24:22):
know, I can't believe we'reletting this happen.
And as I got to know him Irealized he's a really smart guy
, just not educated, and hereally cared it.
Just, it was the way he wasbrought up and he was initially
very resistant to any changes Iwas putting in place as we were
improving.
And so he was the guy I knew.
I had to get him on board andthe rest of the team would

(24:45):
follow, otherwise I'd have thisnegative Nelly constantly
undermining whatever effortsthey were.
And we slowly got to respecteach other, as I learned to and
I say we slowly, the reality is,as I learned to respect him, he
started respecting me, and Ithink that's an important lesson
there.
First right.
So his affect changed and hebecame easier to work with.

(25:07):
But then one day he shows up ata meeting and he's like back to
his old self and I rememberthinking, oh crap, he's backslid
.
I don't know what's going on,but he's got a crappy attitude.
So we finished the meeting itwas a company-wide meeting and I
asked him to stick around andpulled a lesson from one of my
chiefs who taught me never talkabout attitudes, always talk
about behaviors, becausebehaviors are observable.

(25:29):
Right, you can't argue aboutwhat I observed.
Never counsel anybody abouttheir attitudes, only talk about
their behaviors, becausethey're irrefutable.
But you don't know what's goingon in somebody's mind.
And this is a spot on case,because had had I not known that
, I'd have said, I'd have saidrock was his nickname, by the

(25:50):
way, I, he knows this storyWe've.
You know this is nothing likeif he hears this podcast at all.
He'd go yeah, I've heard Davesell this.
What I, what I would have saidhad I not heard this, is rock
man, you got a crappy attitudeagain.
What's going on?
Right to which he might haveand you'll understand why he may
or may not have responded wellto that.

(26:10):
Instead I said rock, what'sgoing on?
You're not smiling, observable,like you.
You're not joking around likeyou normally do, right, you're
looking at what's going on.
What's happened turned out hisdaughter had just been diagnosed
with lupus.
The guy's making $15 an hour,has six kids, four by his wife,

(26:30):
two by another that he'ssupporting.
He didn't participate in ourinsurance program because at $15
an hour he couldn't afford that.
So he thought now he's facedwith all these medical bills.
And so I looked at him.
I said Now he's faced with allthese medical bills.
And so I looked at him.
I said look, first of all wegot your back.
So if you're worried becauseyou have to deal with this and
you got medical you got to takeher to doctors, stuff like that

(26:54):
We've got your back.
Just tell me what you need.
You got our support.
And then I asked him I said areyou on the insurance?
And he said no, so meeting ends.
I could see his weight off hisshoulders, sort of you know,
come off a little bit.
Just when I said we got yourback, we'll get you a time we'll
work with you, don't sweat it,you're important here.
That alone was big.
Then I went to our insurancebroker and long story a little

(27:18):
bit shorter I got it arranged soif he wanted to get on the
insurance before the next openenrollment, which was like six,
eight months away, he could doit.
And he took me up on it andfrom then he went from my you
know the person I had toconvince to the person I never
had to convince, right, becauseall of a sudden he knew I had
his back and so now he had mine.

(27:40):
There was a trust level built.
So you know you had mentioned wewere soldiers once and you
talked about you know you werethe one platoon leader.
Well, there was the other guywho had him checking the socks
and check everybody's feet, andwhat's his name?
Sam, the company first sergeantor whatever.

(28:02):
You said yeah, yeah, sam gotgreat actor.
Anyway he says no, that's aborn leader.
Right, that was the sort of I'mnot saying I was a born leader,
but that was the response I got, though, because I and it went
so far beyond him, it from himto everybody else realizing that
that this and this is what Imean by taking away the things

(28:25):
that prevent people from doingtheir job, because this was
nothing but a distraction forhim.
I mean, obviously, with somestuff he had to deal with at
home, and it was a hugedistraction at work, and I was
able to just relieve thatpressure.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
That's leadership I always kind of go back to like
this mindset of like asledgehammer and again, my
leadership was forged in combatarms, so it's a little bit more
blunt.
I guess I would say that asI've worked with great men and
women.
But lives are on the line.
You have to make quickdecisions.
It's a different environmentand one thing that I always like

(28:59):
would frame around as a leader,you have to have a sledgehammer
mentality.
Your job as a leader you have tohave a sledgehammer mentality.
Your job as a leader is toremove obstacles.
There's four types.
They can block, turn, fix ordisrupt an individual or an
organization.
Your job as a leader is to findthose points of friction and
then smash that obstacle so yourteam can continue to move.
And I love how it's either anobstacle within the organization

(29:22):
or it's an obstacle that anindividual is kind of going
through exactly what you justshared with that individual
having an actual life obstaclethat he had to overcome, and
respect is given.
But trust is earned when you dostuff purposefully to help an
individual.
That ripples throughout anorganization and it only bolster

(29:44):
or boosts up the culture andthe climate.
So what you just did probablyset the trajectory for like the
next three years within thatorganization because you were
caring about individuals, sothat's awesome, man.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, so my last XO.
We were on deployment.
It was a Southern Watchdeployment, so a standard Navy
deployment, six months at seaand one of the guys was having
marital problems, which is notuncommon.
I got, I was engaged for myfirst deployment and separated
on the second deployment.
You know, that's just thenature of the beast.
You know that same, I'm sure,especially nowadays, or you?

(30:20):
know your time Well, you knowwhen we're over in a sandbox and
whatnot.
You know your time well, youknow when we're over in the
sandbox and whatnot.
And the XO at the time arrangedfor this pilot to go home early
on deployment deal with thatstuff and I'll be frank, I was
livid.
It was like we had to put upwith this.
You know why does he get to go.

(30:40):
At the time I didn't think hewas doing the right thing.
In hindsight, not only did hedo the right thing, but that
leadership, that XO his name isSandy Winnefeld and he's now
retired.
Vice Admiral Sandy Winnefeld hewas the Vice Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs was his last billet.
So the man knew leadership.
He understood that's the littlethings go a long way.

Speaker 3 (31:04):
Those types of stories inspire me especially,
like nowadays, is that theindividuals who have that level
of identity and continuouslymake those hard decisions I
always kind of like do an asthmacheck here is that, like being
a good leader is very draining,if that makes sense, because you

(31:25):
always have to be switched on,you're always looking for other
people's problems and you'reembracing them, you're kind of
taking them on, and to do thatlike consistently throughout
your job, like that's that'svery hard.
And then for an individual likethat to make that all the way up
to the very top, like the levelof purpose and just continuing

(31:47):
to do the right thing, likethat's inspiring.
That's some something that Itry to do every single day, but
I also know that like I have tolike pour into myself first, um,
or I can't pour into otherpeople, like there's a level of
selfishness.
I think that I'm learning tohave, uh, when it comes to
leadership, and what I mean bythat is like, hey, taking care
of yourself, because you'realways taking care of other

(32:09):
people how, how did you learnthat balance between how does
Dave take care of himself andhow does Dave go lead his his
people, both either in civilianor in the Navy?

Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah, well, you know, in the Navy, unfortunately, I
didn't know that there's one ofthe reasons my Navy career was
cut short where it was thebeginning of my leadership
journey.
It certainly wasn't the peak ofit, by any stretch of the
imagination.
I was Lieutenant Rosenberg wasa bit of a knucklehead, you know

(32:40):
so, but that's okay, it reallyis.
You know, we all have to learnour lessons in our own way, in
our own time, and I've come torealize that everything happens
to us exactly perfectly.
So I needed those experiencesto be the person I am today.
I would be somebody completelydifferent if I had different
experiences, and that just makessense, right, and I'm happy
with where I am.

(33:01):
So taking care of myself was alesson I've learned later on in
life, because you just burn outright, and so we have to be
balanced mind, body, spirit.
And I think the other piece ofthis is recognizing that it's
not about how long you work orhow hard you work.
It's about how effectively youwork.

(33:22):
You know, and you know theparable of stopping and
sharpening the saw.
If we're giving all the time,we're emptying our cup.
We need to be able to receiveright, and so you know how did I
learn it.
I'm 63 years old.
It's probably really in thelast 10 years that I've learned
that, so you're ahead of thegame.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
From my perspective it's interesting.
Like, as I'm going through this, I'm forced to do it and if
you've, there's a book I thinkit's called the alpha team, if I
remember right but there's an,an illustration of a graph and
it just looks like an S curveand whenever we started
something new we hit resistance.
But then we'll begin to learnand learning curve efficiency

(34:06):
strikes, we see exponential.
At some point we begin to burnout and I think that that is
because of just all thedifferent like stress that

(34:28):
you're putting on yourself tocontinue to push yourself to
become better but not take onlike new obstacles.
So I guess really what I meanby that is that if we're not
pushing ourselves to take on newthings and continuously growing
, then we're always going to bestuck at like this level of a
plateau and we're never reallygoing to take care of ourselves.

(34:48):
And with me, what I've learnedis that the more things that I
take on that's new, I have toforce to take care of myself.
So, like running this podcast,I get up in the morning and I
take a four o'clock ice bath.
That is the first thing I doevery day and I kind of jumped
on that trend, but a portion ofit is.
I had nerve damage in my neck,so I had to figure out a way how

(35:09):
I can physically show up inmyself every morning, put myself
in a more stressful environmentand then start the day off with
a win.
And really I think that's whatit is is just starting your day
off with a win and thencontinuously try to improve
yourself over that period.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
You know that's so.
I'm not.
I'm not.
Burnout is not resonating withme in this, in this context, let
me explain why.
This is a realization that I'vehad.
I mean when I say recently,recently we're talking within
the last several months thatI've sort of put this all
together on my mind.
So my coach, a woman by thename of michelle villalobos,

(35:49):
amazing woman, so she has thismindset around the cycles of
nature and how we really revolvein around cycles of nature.
So, first of all, nature's acycle.
So there's no starting point,but I'm going to start in the
winter time.
In wintertime, seeds are plantedright, leaves have fallen off.
In the end of fall, right, theseeds have fallen off and

(36:11):
they're planted and literallythey sit there in the ground and
they, they nurture, they sitthere, they, they huddle their
energy right and then, as theearth warms up a little bit,
they start to feel that extraenergy.
Then they bloom and they sproutthrough the ground, starting to
grow, and now they have tofight weeds, insects, mites, all

(36:33):
these things that are coming atthem for them to blossom into
be whatever plant they are, andthen, if they make it through
that, they burst through theirsummertime, they're in full
bloom, right, and they're likecome to me, come to me, come to
me, and then fall, hits them,and now they reap the rewards of
this, or the earth does, right,all their goodies fall to the
ground.
Then the cycle starts again.

(36:53):
What's that have to do with us,leadership and self-improvement
?
Well, we take on something new.
So we get this idea this is thewinter phase, right, something
drops in for us.
We're going to do something,whatever it might be.
We chew on it for a bit, wethink about it.
At some point we just start totake action, and what's the
first thing that happens?
We hit resistance.

(37:13):
So we're learning something new.
And right, because we have anew idea.
We're actually learningsomething new.
We're becoming something.
We're not because we're doingsomething we haven't done before
, and so we hit this resistance.
Okay, and this is all reallyinitiations into stepping, into
being this new person we want tobe, and it's tests that were

(37:37):
given by the universe.
God, if you're so inclined, theuniverse, the divine, whatever
you want to call it, I don'treally care, because this is
just the way that works, andit's how badly do we want to
step into this thing, and thethings that hit us are those
things where we're weak becausewe're hit with tests for things
we're good at but we just don'tnotice them.

(37:59):
Right, if you know how to hit afastball and somebody pitcher
throws you a fastball, you justhit it.
But if you're not good at aslider inside slow slider and
they're throwing at you, youstruggle and you struggle until
you get improved to the point.
I once heard tony gwynn say youknow, yeah, he said um, he said
if you, if, if you like themhigh in a way, you got to learn

(38:21):
to hit them in and tight.
Right, you know low and tight,because that's what they're
going to throw you, because theyknow your tendencies.
When you can hit that, then I'mgoing to start going high and
away and then you're going toreally love it, right?
So we got to get strong atwherever our weakness is, and
that's that's the second phase.
And then you hit that and nowyou start performing to your
point.
Okay, well, you get really goodat that and then, right, you

(38:44):
start to reap the rewards at it.
But now you're just.
You're sort of in that groove.
Well, in life you're eithergrowing or you're dying.
There is no steady state inlife.
So if you stop growing, youstop challenging yourself, the
next phase is just dying, right?

(39:04):
I don't care how old you are,right, if you stop pushing
yourself, you're just, you'rerolling down that slope and at
some point you're going to cometo the end, right?
Because second law ofthermodynamics everything goes
to entropy, even us.
Without adding energy to asystem, everything degrades to
chaos, to entropy, to dust,right so.
But if, however, you have thatmindset, now you reap the

(39:29):
rewards of whatever this newthing is.
And then you sit there and yougo, okay, what's my next
evolution, what's my nextchallenge?
Now you're back in that winterseason again, where you're
letting those seeds germinateand go like, okay, what's next
for me?

Speaker 3 (39:41):
What I'm really interested in is like, okay,
what's next for me?
What I'm really interested inis like where does that mindset
come from?
Like with me, I think a portionof it comes from like where I
was raised in, like rural WestVirginia.
So my father was a coal miner.
I grew up in a very like a bluecollar family.
Wakes up early in the morninghe still does.
He's 65 years old.
He wakes up at three in themorning to go to work and drive

(40:02):
an hour.
So like a level of just hardwork and grit that is hard to
explain to someone unless you goto like Appalachia like a
different kind of like living.
And I think with you too, likeknowing your background, you
martial arts I think thatthere's a form of martial arts
that that, at least mentally,that kind of prepares you.

(40:22):
Did that help you build thatmindset or was that just
something that you've always had?

Speaker 1 (40:28):
I've always wanted to give.
For me.
It started with integrity inthe sense, right, that if
somebody's paying me to dosomething, they're going to get
it from me because that's thecontract I made, period.
So it started with that.
But this is not about hard work, this is about purpose.
And I suspect if you talk toyour dad, it'd be the same thing

(40:51):
, because if you say 65, likeit's old, I'm going to be 64 in
boom.
So just chill, dude.
Okay, 65 is not old.
Uh, and 65 today is not as oldas 65 was for my dad either,
right, but I I suspect if youtalk to your dad it comes down

(41:12):
to purpose.
Like what would he do?
Like you know my wife's retiredwe're the same age.
She's been retired jesus, seven, eight years now.
She doesn't have enough time ina day.
She gets fulfillment out ofdoing things around the house.
She took up a hobby she loved,right, all these things that she
never runs out of things to do.
I'm not a potter around thehouse.

(41:32):
It's not that I can't do it.
I do it when I have to, butlike I'd have no purpose in life
if I didn't continue to work.
For me, being able to help otherpeople is a reason to get up
every morning, and so it's notabout the idea of working hard,
it's about living for something,and you know I you mentioned

(41:56):
radical accountability.
I've got three tenants toradical accountability, three
elements that must be presentmechanics it's mechanics mindset
and model.
We're talking about mindsethere.
Why do you exist?
So you talk about hiring peoplefor civilian listeners out
there, people in the privatesector.
You hire people who are goingto get lit up by your company's

(42:16):
purpose.
Every company exists becausethey bring a need to other
people.
They fulfill a need that ismuch needed.
There's a value proposition, aneconomic value proposition, in
every exchange.
I sell you a service or productthat is worth more to you than
the money you're paying me forit, and it's worth less to me

(42:36):
than the money I'm receiving.
So everybody wins.
I'm helping you achievesomething.
That's the economic model there.
For example, plumbers what's thevalue plumbers bring to the
world?
Plumbers are responsible forcivilization.
Nothing short of that.

(42:57):
Without irrigation andsanitation, we could not exist
in cities.
We would be hunter-gatherers.
Still, plumbers are responsiblefor civilization.
If I'm a plumber and I'm hiringplumbers, I want people to get
excited by that concept.
It's about health.
It's about keeping peoplehealthy right.

(43:18):
It's about allowing people tocongregate in cities and towns
safely.
That's huge.
Now, if you get excited aboutthat at 20, 25, when you become
a journeyman plumber, or 30,when you become a master plumber
, aren't you still excited at 60, 65, 70?

(43:38):
Now, maybe you don't want to goout there and turn a wrench
anymore.
Maybe you're mentoring otherpeople, maybe you're doing other
things, but why would you givethat up if that's what excites
you?

Speaker 3 (43:50):
I think purpose definitely evolves over time.
When I was in I call toestactical, operational or
strategic levels of leadership,like where you fall within an
organization.
When I was at the tactical edgeof being a platoon leader or a
company commander, I foundpurpose in solving individuals'
problems like actively workingwith soldiers or teams to get

(44:14):
that.
And then now where I findmyself or find more purposes, I
still move to that point offriction but I look for bigger
problems, bigger problems that Icould actively solve and that's
where I really find purpose andfulfillment and joy at work.
If you put me in a job that wasjust a standard nine to five
and even if you paid me like avery good salary, I would

(44:36):
probably be unhappy because Ithrive in kind of chaotic type
situations and I love hardproblems.
That's just something that I'velearned about myself and I love
trying to help other peoplekind of frame that and continue
to move forward.
But I've learned that mypurpose like has changed over
time, where I used to be verytactical and now it's like

(44:57):
looking bigger picture.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
I would submit that your purpose hasn't changed.
It's just how you fulfill thatpurpose, right?
Why did you join the army?
Why do you serve this country?
What is it that gets youexcited about putting on the
uniform every single day?

Speaker 3 (45:12):
I think for me, one of the reasons that I really
wanted to join the military ishave a sense of duty bigger than
myself.
I wanted to be a part ofsomething bigger than just
myself.
I think that's one of thereasons, too, that I just throw
myself in every position I'veever been in, because I want to
create a positive impact.

(45:33):
And now, having fought being afather of a beautiful daughter
and a son, I want to help buildother leaders that have that
same level of purpose, becauseone day my son or daughter may
choose to wear a uniform or gowork in a company.
I know that's going to happen.
I want them to have goodleaders that lead them through
challenges, and the world's notgetting easier, that's for sure.

(45:53):
We're getting more complexproblems every day.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
You know, I suspect our world is no more difficult
than it was 2 000 years ago.
Right, it's faster.
Right, because you know, forthe roman legions to march to
britain, you know how long wasthat track.
You know life was veryuncertain back then.
You know, hordes of you know Imean combat was you'd be

(46:19):
civilian, and you know I meancombat was you'd be civilian,
and you know.
And next thing, you know,there's somebody you're being
raided by, whomever.
Right, I don't know that life'smore complicated.
It changes all the time.
I mean, the older I get, themore I realize really it's the
same stuff day in, day out.
It happens faster, happensbroader.

(46:39):
Right, we're closer to,connected together.
Right, you know, I mean, 200years ago, to do something you
know across the world was acommitment.
I mean, while it's still acommitment, it doesn't take much
to say, hey, let's go move thisbattle group over here.
Or you know, I was.
I was Desert Shield, desertStorm.
I was.
I was at sea on August 2nd, aday I'll never forget 1990, you

(47:01):
know, which was the day Kuwaitgot invaded and we moved really,
really quickly.
We were first on station atGhanza Station and next thing,
you know, we got acid flyinginto Saudi Arabia like nobody's
business.
You know, it happened reallyquickly, a matter of a couple of
months before that whole thingjumped off, but the reality is,
I think the stress for everybody, at whatever level it is, it's

(47:23):
the same.
I don't I don't know that Iagree with with that, but I what
I what I'm hearing from you,though, is that you want to
serve something bigger than you.
I think everybody does.
I think that's human nature,which is why I say for companies
go for what is?
What is your purpose?
Why, what is it that's thatthat you serve?
It's interesting when you readBuilt to Last and Good to Great.

(47:44):
The Seminole Works there, thosecompanies that outperformed the
market over a 15-year period,greatly outperformed the market.
All had that purpose, and Isuspect, when you finally retire
hopefully it's a long time fromnow when you finally retire,
though, and you go to work inthe private sector, you're going
to continue to do the samething, and what you'll find it's

(48:07):
not that you, it's not, Isuspect, it's not so much that
you thrive in chaos is thatyou're comfortable in chaos, and
you love to take chaos and turnit into whatever.
The opposite of chaos is order.
You love taking chaos andturning it into order, and great
leaders know how to do that.
Because that's what it's allabout.
It's about creating thoseprocesses, smoothing things out

(48:27):
and iterating that processconstantly, as we talked about
earlier, so that people candevelop and thrive, and what
it's really about is gettingother people to do that so they
can step into their leadership.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
So where did this mindset come from?
So working for three, sevenyears in the military,
transitioning to 30 years, uh inthe civilian sector and then
wanting to start your owncompany, I guess where?
What inspired you to start yourown coaching company and then
begin to like build leadersthrough that way?

Speaker 1 (48:58):
so I started building we.
So my leadership journey.
So I get out of the navy andstarted my first company.
My leadership journey.
So I get out of the Navy andstarted my first company, which
it's not part of really part ofthe story, because the need got
fulfilled by bigger, deeperpockets before we ever got off
the ground.
But so, from that though, itlaunched me into
telecommunications and I washired as a sales manager, having
never sold anything before buthelped this guy build his

(49:22):
company sales department, andthe first year I spent just
proving that I could sell.
But once I did that and Istarted building the sales force
, I hired my first sales guy andI realized that I had no way of
teaching him.
He came from sales, so henominally knew how to sell,
although I discovered not really, and he knew nothing about the
technology we were selling.

(49:43):
So I had to train him.
So I'm going to throw this inyour.
So what would you do?
You know you've been in thearmy how many years now 17.
Okay, so 10 years longer than Iwas in the Navy.
What would you do under thosecircumstances?
You have nothing in place tohelp teach this guy how to do
his job.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
You have nothing in place to help teach this guy how
to do his job.
First thing I would do is Iwould try to do an initial
counseling of like hey, this iswhat I believe expectations and
management would be of yourposition.
What do you think yourexpectations of management would
be?
So we kind of at least set thestandard and then try to find
the right tools to give them sothey can actually go out and do

(50:22):
good things.
It would probably be the firsttwo things that I would start
with.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
I created a manual.
I wrote a manual.
I had a feel that wouldresonate right, because that's
right, everything in themilitary there's a manual for it
.
Here I am as a civilian.
I'm like damn it, there's nomanuals.
Okay, I'm going to create amanual.
And so I wrote a trainingmanual.
So I wrote a training manualand I wrote training manual.
I trained him and he learnedhow to sell and I left that job
and I went to another job.

(50:47):
I became VP of operations andthere was no manual.
So then I wrote a wholeoperation and training standards
manual.
I took NA TOPS, took the NA outand just created a TOPS manual
training, operation proceduresand standards manual.
Because there was nothing inwriting.
So there was no way to teachpeople consistently how to do
their job because there wasnothing in writing, nothing to
follow, no syllabus, noprocedures, no policy.

(51:09):
So I wrote it and guess what?
People started doing their jobbetter, people started enjoying
their job.
Oh, people started realizingthat I had their back because I
was teaching them how to dotheir job right so they wouldn't
get in trouble for not doing itright, because they and me
might have had different ideasof what right was.
Now they knew what right was,at least by my definition.

(51:29):
So from there, I started mysecond business, which was a
telecom business, because now Iknew how to sell it, I knew how
to run the backend as operationsI may as well do it for myself
and, of course, I started amanual.
It was just me, by the way, andI still started a manual
because I knew I was going tohire somebody and grew that

(51:50):
business, sold that business,and then I got hired as
president of a company and guesswhat?
There was no manual.
Well right, well right.
So you, this is a story untilfinally, um, I got hired as a vp

(52:10):
for a moving company in 2011, ayear later, I got promoted to
president creating manuals, bythe way, the whole way.
That's where the the story Itold earlier, you know, came
from thought I had the last jobI was ever going to have, and
then the owner went through adivorce and decided to sell the
business.
Because it was, it wascommunity property, it was
easier for him to sell it andthen to deal with the messiness

(52:32):
of the divorce and figuring outhow to deal with that with the
soon to be ex-wife.
So I was looking for work andthe IT company that supported us
.
I had known this guy.
We used to be competitors whenI had my telecom business and I
brought him in as a vendor.
He was a small IT supportcompany.
I know him pretty well at thispoint and he said hey, dave, can

(52:52):
you come work for me?
I'm like you can't afford me.
He goes can you at leastconsult with me and my wife?
So that you know, we've beenstock plateaued for a number of
years at this size company.
We'd like to grow it and Ithought, sure, why not do
something while I'm looking forwork?
And so I started consulting withthem, coaching them, and it

(53:13):
occurred to me shortlythereafter I'm like you know I
could get a job as a GMpresident someplace else In
three or four years.
Down the road something's goingto change and I'm going to find
myself looking for work again.
So, no matter how good a job Ido, no matter how successful I
am In fact, like the movingcompany got sold in part because

(53:34):
of my success it sold 20% abovewhat I was willing to pay for
it, because I was looking to buyit, you know, because we were
doing so well.
So I'm happy for him.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm happy for the guy who soldit, but I'm like I don't want to
be in the boat again.
I'm like let me just startcoaching other businesses.
And so I started businesscoaching and then a buddy of

(53:55):
mine who I had met while I wasin the moving company, who is a
retired Air Force light colonel.
He's a Hall of Fame speaker, sowe had stayed in contact and he
was encouraging me to speak andto talk about leadership and my
experiences, and so that led tome writing my book and doing,
speaking and turning, and fromthere my sort of what I call

(54:17):
tactical leadership this is sortof broad leadership thing got
narrowly focused, to your pointearlier about your groupings
getting tighter.
Tactical leadership this issort of broad leadership thing
has got narrowly focused, toyour point earlier, about your
groupings getting tighter toaccountability, creating a
culture of accountability,redefining accountability to
what I call radicalaccountability, which is a
culture where people willinglydo what they need to do when

(54:38):
they need to do it with accuracy, and I think when that happens
everyone goes home happy.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
Today's show sponsor comes from Tenth Mountain
Whiskey and Spirit Company.
They are a philanthropic,award-winning craft distillery
located in the heart of theRocky Mountains in Colorado.
For being a listener of Talesof Leadership, you get 10% off
on any order using the promocode PandoCommando when you
place an order at 10thWhiskeycom.

(55:07):
Both of those are in the shownotes so you'll be able to find
them.
10th Mountain Whiskey is anspirit company, honors heroes
and they craft legacy.
I've commanded two organizationsin the 10th Mountain and both
of which are very deeplyimpactful to me.
This is a company that I standbehind and if you're looking for

(55:28):
a great bottle of bourbon, lookno further at 10th Mountain
Whiskey and Spirit Company.
Back to the show.
I think accountability isdefinitely something that people
I don't know potentiallystruggle with nowadays within
leadership.
That people I would I don'tknow like potentially struggle
with nowadays within leadership.
What is one way that you teachthat people can go actively,
employ that like radicalaccountability within their

(55:50):
organization, like what is thefirst step to help build an
accountable team or anorganization that you've learned
.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
Well, as I mentioned before, there's three things
required.
The first is mechanics.
The mechanics are the policies,procedures, training, the
methodologies, how people dothings, making sure that it's
memorialized in writing.
So the policies are theboundaries.
This is what's acceptable to us, this is what's not acceptable,
and these are what will happenshould you work outside these

(56:21):
policies in writing reallyimportant, it's crystal clear to
everybody.
Then the procedures, which thenbegets the training right, so
you create the procedures andyou train to procedures, and
training needs to be formal,written, with testing.
This way, people know what theyneed to do and that they know
how to do it.
And you have metrics along withthat so that testing is yes,

(56:44):
you could produce whatever isrequired within the amount of
time that's required to beproduced.
So people have the confidenceto go yes, I know how to do that
.
Right, and it's nothing.
You do the same thing in thearmy and every branch of the
service, right?

Speaker 3 (56:55):
we don't just say here's, here's your m4, go fire
it yeah, the crawl, walk run islike the methodology that the
army uses.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Yeah.
So martial arts, you know theschool I went to, the guy is
brilliant this way.
Right, we talk about that.
It's in alphabets.
You teach basics first.
Basics are how do you throw apunch?
Right One thing how do youthrow a punch?
How do you do a front kick?
How do you do a front kick?
How do you do a side kick?
How do you do a hand sword?
Or what a palm heel strike?
Okay, well, that's great, butthat doesn't mean you can fight

(57:26):
right.
Then you put them together informs where you're now dancing
by yourself, moving in such away, getting the body to move in
right.
Then you start sparring withsomebody.
That's a controlled fight.
And then we did what we calledself defense, which was
uncontrolled fight, whereas nowyou know we're just coming at
you and right.

(57:47):
So we're constantly increasingthe level of difficulty.
The Navy, and I'm sure the Army,does the same thing in workups.
Right, you go out there gettingready to deploy.
The first thing that happens isyou put planes on the aircraft
carrier and they practice movingthe airplanes around.
We'll do a few takeoffs andlandings so they can practice
doing that, but we're not doingthat heavy duty.
But then you start doingheavier ops and you bring in the

(58:10):
battle group so that you'reworking in conjunction with the
small boys, and you bring inother battle groups so you're
working in a bigger picture,right?
So you slowly work bigger andbigger and bigger and bigger,
right, crawl, walk, run.
I love that.
That's a great, great analogy.
So you do the same thing in yourbusiness.
You train people.
What are the basics, just toget started on the job.
Don't teach them what somebodywho's been in the job five years

(58:30):
has to know.
What is it they need to knowday one to get them through six
months down the road and thenyou have next training and next
training and it builds on itself.
That's number one.
Then mindset I talked about thatmaking sure everyone
understands two things One, whyyou exist as an organization,
but, more importantly, how theiractions fit in to the global

(58:52):
whole, how, by them doing theirjob, it affects everybody else
and how, by them not doing theirjob, it affects everybody else.
And honestly, I got this byreading stories of just about
everybody I could who's receivedany sort of Medal of Valor,
especially Congressional Medalof Honor recipients.
Think about this.

(59:13):
I know, you know these people.
What do they have in common?
What does every one of them saywhen you talk to them about
their receiving that award?
I don't deserve this.
I didn't do anything special.
I didn't do anything thatanybody else in my unit standing
where I was standing at thatmoment wouldn't have done,
because if I didn't do it, otherpeople would have been injured,

(59:37):
killed, etc.
It's about thinking about others.
We don't want to let othersdown, and if we're willing to
put our lives on the line tokeep other people from dying you
said it before lives are atstake.
Well, when only livelihoods areat stake, how much easier is it
, when you think about others,for you to step up to their
plate?
If you tell people why to dothings for them, they could let

(01:00:00):
themselves off the hook.
That's not important to me, butI'm going to disappoint you.
It's human nature and I couldgo deep into this but it's
anthropologically in our souls,because we are pack animals, not
to let the pack down Mindset.
Inculcate that mindset inpeople.
Make sure they understand howthey are contributing, even the
janitors.
There are no unimportant jobs,not a one.

(01:00:22):
If it's not important, youwouldn't do it.
You wouldn't pay somebody to doit if it was unimportant.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
That's absolutely critical and it puts me back in
my mindset of when I was alieutenant in Afghanistan and we
had to do clearing for IEDs.
One of the most thankless jobsand patrols that we would always
go do was just lock patrol.
We would make sure that theroads were open, that logistics
could get in and out, becausewhere we were we were landlocked

(01:00:50):
.
Most of our supplies kind ofcame in from ground assault
convoys that would come in maybelike once every two weeks.
But I would always get thatquestion why are we doing this?
Why are we doing this?
Why are we doing this?
If I knew what I knew now, I'dgive a way better answer.
But it goes back to that pointis like if we didn't do this, we
wouldn't get the sustainmentthat we need to actually

(01:01:12):
continue to do the combatmissions that are getting marked
results.
And you being an expert in thatmindhound or that gizmo and that
Thor and operating withproficiency is saving people's
lives so we don't step on otherIEDs.
And that goes down from a veryspecific military example to the
janitor that you talked about.
When you walk into a buildingand the building is clean, you

(01:01:36):
have this sense of just likeit's a good day.
I feel like I'm going to gostraight and get to work,
because I'm operating in like apsychologically safe environment
.
The building's clean.
Leadership's going to take careof me.
Let's go do the work.
Let's get it done.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
If the janitor is not willing to do his job, why
should I be willing to do mine?
Nobody actually thinks that,but it's there, it's in the back
of their head.
It's subliminal, the last thingthat you want to put in place.
This is the most important, andI know you're going to put a
smile on your face.
You got to walk the talk.
People will only behave as well.

(01:02:12):
They will emulate yourbehaviors.
And so again, civilian storyabout this.
The gentleman I was talkingabout, who got me started on
this career.
This is some years later.
We're still friends to this day.
We've been friends, actually,God, for a long, long time.
It was 10 years ago when Istarted consulting with him.
Not too long ago, he called meup and he said I got this one

(01:02:36):
guy who is habitually late.
He's a good worker, but he'sjust always coming in late.
We talk to him all the timeabout how this impacts things
and what our expectations are,but he always has an excuse.
And I said to him I said let meask you a question Do you
always start your meetings ontime?
He said he says most of the time.

(01:02:57):
I said most of it, but not allthe time.
You know one of the big jokeswe used to have in the Navy
squadron was what time does the8 o'clock all officers meeting
start?
You know, because you had thoseCOs who would you know.
It starts when I get there,right, Even though it's called
for 8 o'clock, Because most ofthe time, not all of it.
Do you ever have impromptumeetings about something that's

(01:03:17):
not critical, instead ofscheduling them with somebody?
Well, sure I do.
I need to find something out.
Okay, do you always show upwhen you say you're going to
show up?
Well, not always.
Sometimes things come up, soyou don't respect other people's
times because they will emulateyou.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
So you have to model the behaviors you want I had a
um, we were doing a live fire.
I was feeling sorry for myplatoon at the time.
This was when I was a companycommander and I was going to
give them the grace to get inthe military.
We call it recock Start back atthe beginning, go through the
lane again, but to give them thetime off and we're going to

(01:03:55):
start the next day.
And I had the battalioncommander walk up to me.
It was a sister battalioncommander, it wasn't ours, it
was a sister battalion commander.
It wasn't ours, it was adifferent one.
He's like Josh, you got a goodplatoon, you got a good company
Deeds, not words.
And he just walked off and itjust resonated with me and I'm
like, okay, if I'm expectingmyself to do hard things, I
expect my men to do hard things,then we need to embrace that

(01:04:19):
mindset.
And that started another shiftin me is like, hey, words are
great as a leader, but deeds goway further.
Are your actions aligned withyour purpose, with your words,
with what you're saying?
And what you just said is hitsa nail on the head, because I
see that so much of where seniorleaders expect you to be 10 to

(01:04:39):
15 minutes early to theirmeeting, but they may get in 10,
15 minutes late.
Hey, sorry it went over time.
It doesn't matter how high arank you are.
You have to be cognizant aboutpeople's time.
That's a nugget right there,dave.
I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Yeah, and you know I'm trying to think there's a.
Colin Powell had a quote alongthese lines and something along
the lines of you know, a soldierdoesn't care what you say, but
they will look long and hard atwhat you do Something along
those lines, yeah, when you'reseeing a consistent behavioral

(01:05:13):
pattern in your team that youdon't like, first look at
yourself.
Where is that showing up in mylife?
And it comes down to integrity,and most people don't truly
know what integrity is.
I'm curious.
I know it's your podcast,you're interviewing me, but give
me your definition of integrity.

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
Integrity for me comes down to doing what I say
I'm going to do.
Integrity for me is not lying,cheating and stealing.
It's being above a moralstandard that I've set for
myself, which is a very high bar.
But at the end of the day, if Itell you, Dave, I'm going to do
something, I have theintestinal fortitude to follow

(01:05:50):
through with it.
That's what integrity means tome.

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
And that absolutely is an aspect of integrity, and
you did better than most I gotto be honest, most people that
come back to me go integrity isdoing the right thing, even when
nobody's watching that tritememe that's out there.
And really, what's the rightthing in that question?
So, if you think about it, weall have values, okay, and

(01:06:14):
values are our beliefs, inhierarchical order.
So whatever we believe the moststrongest, that's our number
one value.
For me, and something Idiscovered with the pandemic a
few years back, it's personalsovereignty, and I will come
back to integrity in a second.
But I think it's important thatpeople understand how values

(01:06:35):
work so we can understand whatintegrity truly is right.
So when they were talking aboutvaccine passports, I thought,
because I'm not vaccinated Earlyon, I'm like no, I'm not
messing around with my genes,mrna, that's gene therapy.
I don't care what they sayain't happening, right?
I'm picturing the fly and allthese other things.

(01:06:58):
So I didn't get vaccinated andI was never going to get
vaccinated and I never will withthat particular vaccine.
And now they're talking aboutvaccine passports and I'm like,
wow, okay, and so I was preparedto forge a vaccine passport.
But what went through my mind asI'm thinking about this, and I
was accepting, and it reallywasn't a there was no turmoil

(01:07:22):
for me whatsoever about that,other than I went I don't lie
and I'm willing to lie.
Huh, there must be a valueabove honesty in my hierarchy
that is superseded because I'mwilling to lie.
So something is supersedingthat because we always behave I

(01:07:42):
believe we always behave in aline with our true values, right
, and so for me, I came to therealization that personal
sovereignty nobody's telling mewhat I can and can't do with my
body that's the most importantthing.
And so I'm willing to liebecause that supersedes it.
Okay, so if we always behave inaccordance with our true values

(01:08:04):
, we can never behave other thanwhat our values dictate then
where does integrity come in?
Integrity is when we say ourvalues are one thing, but that's
not true, so we're not actingas an integral whole right.
It really comes from the Latinword integritatum, right, which
is to be complete, as in avessel with no holes in it,
right, and so I think of that asour character.

(01:08:26):
We are a good character whenour stated values, the values we
profess to the world, areactually our true values.
When they are not, then we haveholes in our character, we have
a bad character, right, becausewe say one thing and we do
another.
Now we're out of integrity.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
I'm stealing that for the rest of my career.
I want to use that definitionof how you just bounded down.
Integrity tied to character andbehaviors is beautiful.
I've never heard it like thatbefore.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
You're welcome to you .
Don't have to steal it.
I will give it to you willingly.

Speaker 3 (01:09:03):
I appreciate it, dave .
I want to definitely get achance to talk about your book
that you wrote, locked OnLeadership, and then kind of
talk about what you're doing nowand growing within that space,
within your coaching company.
But what inspired you to writeLocked On Leadership?

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Well, the truth is I wanted a book so I could have
some credibility, trying to getspeaking gigs as I was starting
my speaking career, the.
But like so many things I saidearlier, everything I think,
please happens perfectly.
And this was so perfect becausewhat it enabled me to do was
the beginning of synthesizing myleadership philosophy and what
has really become a doctrine forleadership now, which is what
radical accountability is.

(01:09:50):
So at first I'm like God, howam I going to do this?
And at the time I was thinkingabout having the manual and what
I now call mechanics in placereally is fulfilling Maslow's
second hierarchy of needs.
So I'm sure you're familiarwith Maslow's hierarchy of needs
.
Maslow said there are fivebasic needs that we have that we

(01:10:12):
must meet in hierarchical order.
So the higher level needsaren't even we don't even become
aware of them until our lowerlevel needs are substantially
met.
The first, of course, isphysiological needs.
You need to live right.
So, if you think about it, ifyou're out in the middle of
nowhere and you need water right, You've been to Sears school,

(01:10:33):
right, you get three daysmaximum without water and then
you're dead right.
And if there is a cache ofwater on a limb over a gorge
that's 5,000 feet deep right,and that limb is shaky and it's
that or nothing.
You're climbing out on thatlimb to get that water, because
the alternative is death.
So who cares if you fall anddie anyway?
But if you're successful,you're at least going to live,

(01:10:54):
right?
Well, once you've established asource of water so you find a
stream or something like thatthen all of a sudden you notice
all the animal prints around thestream and you realize that I'm
out here alone and there's somebig ass animals.
You become aware of your nextlevel needs safety and security.
And so you fashion weapons orwhatnot to protect yourself from
them.
And then what?
Now, all of a sudden, you'relike crap, I'm lonely, Because

(01:11:17):
men, when I say men, humans,we're social creatures, right?
So you think Tom Hanks inCastaway, after he established
his camp, what's he doing?
He makes Wilson because he'slonely, right.
So you then start seeking outother human beings.
He has this need for love andbelonging, right.
Be part of a group.
Each subsequent level supportsthe one below it, right?

(01:11:37):
So when we create safety andsecurity, create weapons and if
we're not injured, we're betterable to meet our physiological
needs when we find a group, loveand belonging, become part of a
pack that are able to be safeand secure and meet our
physiological needs.
So now we're in this pack, wewant to stay there.
We now become aware of the needfor esteem, not self-esteem.

(01:11:59):
It's not how do I feel about me.
It's how do you feel about meas a pack member, Because if I'm
not contributing and you don'trecognize my contribution,
you're going to kick me out ofthe pack.
And now I've moved down thelevel.
My safety and security is lesssecure.
So I want to stay part of thepack.
So I'm looking for that esteem.

(01:12:19):
And what Matt and I have said isthe only time we're going to
become self-actualized, or atleast have the opportunity to be
self-actualized, is once ouresteem needs are met.
Then we start going what is itwe feel like we're meant to do?
And if what we're meant to dosupports the pack, we'll do it.
And now you're working in whatyou love to do, what you were
born to do, in your flame.

(01:12:40):
Very few people actually get todo that.
So it's thinking about how.
Initially, how writing manuals,because I shared with you
earlier leadership for mestarted off with how writing
manuals, because I shared withyou earlier.
Leadership for me started offwith just writing manuals.
Really is meeting that safetyand security level of needs,
because you're telling peoplewhat is expected of them, how
much of it is expected of themright, and how to do it.
Now they're feeling safe andsecure in their job.

(01:13:02):
Then it occurred to me well,wait a second.
We want to recognize people, wewant to recognize the behaviors
we want repeated.
Well, isn't that really justmeeting esteem needs?
And so I started speaking aboutthis.
So this became my book and Ibreak all this out in my book
and I started speaking.
My first early keynote wasreally just my book in keynote

(01:13:24):
form.
You know I would just takepeople through it, and the piece
that would resonate all thetime when I was done was when I
talked about accountability.
And I talk about accountabilityfrom holding people accountable
, which is a tool ofaccountability.
It's not all of accountability,but it's it's, it's the.
When people hear accountability, they think about how do I hold
people accountable?
They don't fully understand thebig picture of it.

(01:13:47):
And then I realized this iswhere the real need is, is
creating a culture where peoplehold themselves accountable, and
so that's where.
That's how radicalaccountability came to be is
from there what, uh, whatresponse have you gotten from
that book?

Speaker 3 (01:14:06):
have you gotten any feedback from that book of
things that have, like, inspiredpeople or organizations?
I'm sure you have.
Like you had a successfulcoaching company for a very long
time and I always love being aleader, like hearing stories
from like fellow soldiers thatcome back like, hey, you did
this and that caused that.
What level of impact have yougot feedback from your book?

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
Yeah, so you know one again.
The gentleman I talked aboutwith the IT company who also had
the problem with time.
You know he had a huge turnoverrate with technicians.
You know where people arecoming and going revolving door,
and that's one of the reasonshe was struggling to grow his
business.
Because even if he was addingnew clients, you's a

(01:14:49):
retainer-based business.
So if you maintain your clientsand then just add one or two a
year, the business willnaturally grow.
But when you have a hugeturnover, then you get poor
results for your clients, and sohe had attrition in his clients
and he's focusing on hiringreplacement people instead of
getting new clients Right.
So that's where the stagnationcame in.

(01:15:11):
Now, you know he's got atechnician, has been with him
for decades or more Well, adecade, because it was 10 years
since we started workingtogether and his client
attrition has gone to virtuallynothing.
You know there's always littlethings that happen.
He's spending more time, moretime, almost all his time on
strategic initiatives instead ofputting out fires, because

(01:15:35):
that's what we're talking aboutis shifting leaders from being
firefighters to being firemarshals, because when you're
not in the thick of it day today, you can then look ahead and
anticipate problems ahead oftime, and so instead of waiting
for those problems to manifestand then putting the fire out,

(01:15:57):
which is exciting and adrenalinepumping and at the end of the
day, you just keep doing it overand over again.

Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
I think like the highest need of an organization
and I think through that lens ofme as a leader and I understand
that there's.
I have bosses that are above meor leaders that are above me,
and I have people who work withme and then people that work
under me.
I always look from this aspectof an aerial perspective.
As a leader, you should be onthe highest piece of terrain.

(01:16:30):
Why is that the mostadvantageous for a battlefield?
It's always been the mostadvantageous for a battlefield
because you see the wholepicture.
When you see the whole picture,I kind of go back to, like my
lieutenant days of like asymphony of chaos, megadeth if
you're a Megadeth deaf fan ofjust being able to orchestrate
the team, to help them, coachthem along the way, and

(01:16:54):
accountability is a huge pieceof that not helping them, not
rescuing them when they run intoissues, but coaching them along
the way so they can continue tomake those 50 meter targets and
knock down those 50 metertargets.
But you, as a leader, you'relooking at the whole picture and
you understand the entirebattlefield and you should be
working on those next hundredmeter, 200 meter, 300 meter

(01:17:16):
targets because you know they'regoing to be major obstacles and
your goal is to mitigate thoseobstacles.
So when it's time to actuallyact and it gets to your people,
you've already smashed it and Ilove that kind of methodology
that you lay out in your book.
And I want to be candid, don'thate me.
I haven't got a chance to readyour book yet, but I am going to

(01:17:37):
a hundred percent dive intothat book next, next month.
That's on my goal.
I have very I'm very strictwith the books that I read.
So as soon as I get done withthis next one, your, your book
is on my short list to do.

Speaker 1 (01:17:48):
I appreciate that and , trust me, I don't hate you,
Josh, Not at all, but I do wantto.
So you said something reallyinteresting there and I want to
drop this in there as well,because people conflate
accountability with counseling,correcting behaviors.
Accountability is nothing morethan the ability to account,

(01:18:14):
meaning go through a process.
Right, the word account is fromthe root Latin.
Computer is nothing more thanhow do we go, how do we follow a
process, and so the culture ofaccountability is one where
everybody follows the processthe way it's supposed to be done
, and the reason for that isthat allows you to iterate,

(01:18:37):
Because, you know, one of thetools I talk about in the book
is what I call a quality board,which comes from my military.
You know, when you know wewould do as a legal officer, you
know I would do these boardsfor, oh, what was it called?
It was a form of generaldischarge, but other than other

(01:18:58):
than honorable.
I was right, we have to useother honorable board discharges
right For people.
And you think about whathappens during a board like that
is you sit down and you gothrough okay, what did you?
How did we get here?
Step-by-step-by-step, right.
And so what happened with themoving company is we would start
to get these claims wherepeople whether it was an actual

(01:19:19):
claim or just somebody said, hey, this move took too long or the
guys were late.
I should get money back Anytime.
Somebody wanted money back, youknow we would give that to them
.
But then we would examine how wegot there and I'd bring in the
moving crew without telling themwhat to complain or the reason
was, and I would sit there.
It was me, my ops manager andmy another manager, and we would

(01:19:42):
sit there and say, okay, fromthe night before when you first
called in to get your schedule,because we had phone calls back
then, walk us through everythingyou did procedurally.
Somebody was responsible forchecking the truck in the
morning, somebody responsiblefor calling the client, all
these processes, procedures thatwe had in place, that the had
to get done, who did it?

(01:20:03):
What did they say?
What happened?
And the result was we wouldfind one of two things.
One there was a systemicproblem, meaning they followed
the procedure and the failurewas because there was a hole in
the procedure.
That's a home run.
That's a phenomenal outcome,because what's that tell us to

(01:20:24):
do?
How do we iterate thisprocedure to prevent that in the
future?
Right, and that's how you getbetter and better and better.
The second outcome was apersonnel issue.
Ie, they didn't follow theprocedure.
Now we got to explore how come,where's the mindset mechanics,
mindset, you know.
Does that uncover an area wheremaybe we were modeling

(01:20:45):
something wrong as leaders?
Or was their mindset wrong?
And if their mindset was wrong,what was that all about?
Was it something we canmitigate?
Or maybe it was something wherethey needed to be working
someplace else and it gave usthe tools to do that?
And so what happened was theteam upgrades, as those people
who didn't have the rightmindset were elevated to work

(01:21:09):
elsewhere, or the processes wereiterated and got better because
we were improving them andsetting people up for success
more and more.

Speaker 3 (01:21:18):
At the end of the day , you're just providing a better
service, Regardless of theoutcome, you're providing a
better service.
I love the way you break downaccountability of like looking
at it from a root cause.
Analysis essentially is likewhy did we fail?
Then identify was it a personor was it a process or a policy

(01:21:39):
and then continuing to improveupon that.
I don't think that I've everreally looked at accountability
from that macro lens.
I always look at it.
I think everyone always looksat it from like a very micro
lens of like hey, this is thestandard in the organization.
You did not meet that standard,You're done Versus.
Maybe we need to look at thatstandard, Maybe the standard

(01:22:00):
needs to change and maybe it'soutdated.
Or maybe we need to provide anadditional resource to help
people achieve that standard.
Or maybe we're hiring the wrongpeople.
And if we're hiring the wrongpeople, how can we improve upon
that?
That's a deep topic and a very,very deep way to think through
accountability.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
Yeah, and you think about that.
So now we get to make little,tiny, incremental improvements
every single day.
And how powerful is that?
This is small ball.
I was on Joel Goldberg.
He's an announcer for KansasCity Royals, he's one of their

(01:22:41):
radio announcers and he has apodcast called Rounding the
Bases and he always asks youwhat's small ball?
To you this is small ball, right, because if you're making 1%
improvement a day, how long doesit take to improve 100%?
Nope, 70.
Compounding, okay Now, butthat's not the magic.
So let's just assume we'restarting our baseline and we're

(01:23:03):
just going to call it a random100.
Okay.
So 70 days later you're at 100,you go to 200.
70 days later, where are you?
400.
400.
Because it's 200, that was yourbaseline.
70 days later, it goes to 400.
70 days later, where are you800.
70 days later, where are you1600.

(01:23:25):
So in 280 days?
So in 280 days, 1,600%improvement.
If it's 1% a day, small ball,huge impact.
I see these numbers with myclients all the time in their
bottom line P&Ls financials.
You see those improvements Notnecessarily 1,600% improvement,

(01:23:47):
right, because I mean that's butyou see disproportion.
You'll see sales grow by 20%,but you'll see net operating
profits grow by 250%.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
I think that's a great place to kind of like
transition within your coachingcompany right now.
What are you actively doing?
Any new projects that you areworking on right now?

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
There are a lot of companiesout there that do these
leadership retreats or bootcamps, those sort of things, but
there's nothing like learningfrom history.
Leadership hasn't changed inthe 300,000 years of human
evolution.
Homo sapiens have been aroundfor 300,000 years and we've
chosen our leaders for one andonly one reason for that entire

(01:24:33):
time they're the ones who giveus the highest chance of
survival.
How we execute it has changedin the sense of, you know, from
a cultural perspective, but thebasic root of all of that is the
same Napoleon, alexander, theGreat.
Right the elements are allthere.
Recognize people, create up,set them up for success by

(01:24:55):
giving them the training theyneed right.
Recognize the rewards right.
Napoleon's the one who saidgive the man a little piece of
ribbon and he'll fight foreverfor you, or something like that.
Right the elements are allthere.
So my newest project is calledCommand Expedition Leadership
Lessons from Iconic Battlefields.
Once or twice a year, we'regoing to travel with a small
select group no more than 10leaders to various battlefields

(01:25:20):
around the world and dig intothe leadership lessons from
those places.
So I'm starting with the Battleof Britain.
This is I don't have a firm date.
It's looking like June 6th willbe the first day of 2026, but
I'm still waiting on final dateson that.
We're going to go to EnglandSix amazing days there.

(01:25:41):
We're going to start off withdinner at the Savoy Grill, which
was Churchill's favoriterestaurant.
Then, before it opens to thepublic, we're going to have a
private tour of the ChurchillWar Room Museum, this war room.
So take it a step fartherthough, right, because we're
actually going to have historianled.
It's not going to be a docent,and you probably know this, but

(01:26:04):
Churchill.
First of all, at the time whenChurchill came into office as
prime minister, england was tornon what to do.
Right, there was anotherChamberlain.
You know, let's capitulate,let's make peace.
Blah, blah, blah.
Churchill was dead set againstthat.

Speaker 3 (01:26:18):
Because Dunkirk was happening too and, it's
important to note, he was underthe gun.
300,000 English soldiers werestranded on the beach at Dunkirk
, surrounded by the Nazi forceYep, and they could have been
wiped out, right, and they got ahuge percentage.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
I don't remember how many, but, yeah, the vast
majority of them they were ableto extricate safely, which was
huge.
So he was able to convince allof England to buy into his
vision.
Imagine, as a leader, gettingyour team to buy into your
vision.
So we're going to dig into howhe was able to do that his
oration, his power, what hetalked about, how he talked
about it.
But he was also a master oftime management.

(01:26:55):
He didn't get out of bed till1130 every day.
Still got more work done thanany other two people.
Then we go down to the GoodwoodEstates, which is across from
RAF Tagmir, which was a Spitfirebase.
You want to learn about makingdecisions under pressure.
We're going to go up in T-67Firefly fighter trainers and
we're going to do air combat andyou're going to learn how to

(01:27:15):
make split second decisions at400 miles an hour against your
fellow expedition member.
Yeah, that's going to be socool.
Then the Southwick House, whichwas, as you know, supreme
Allied headquarters forEisenhower, where he was
planning D-Day Once againEisenhower, when he did
Operation Torch the landing inAfrica.

(01:27:37):
He talks about this in hiswritings.
Right, it was horrible, right,he underemphasized logistics,
almost lost the war, um and what?
Instead of blaming others, hetook past failures and turned
them into future successes.
So, by the time d-day camearound, and obviously we got

(01:27:58):
better with sicily and, you know, palermo, etc.
But by the time d-day camearound, five divisions from
three different countries, thelargest amphibious landing in
the history of mankind.
Well, it didn't go off withouta hitch, it certainly went well,
or we'd be having thisconversation in German, yeah, so
we'll dig into how he did thatand how you can learn from your
past mistakes.

(01:28:18):
And then, finally, over toGuernsey, the Channel Islands,
which were under occupation.
Now, I didn't know that, Idon't know if you were aware,
but it became an open city andthe Brits ceded that to Germans
in 1940 without a fight, and so,yeah.
So imagine what are the lessonsin resilience that you could
uncheck from being instantlyunder occupation, not being

(01:28:41):
supported by, of course, any ofthe trade from England, and of
course the Germans didn't reallyhave a lot of resources, and
those they had went to theGerman occupying forces, not to
the local people.
And then we're going to closewith a wrap up and integration
dinner at Raffles Old War Roombefore we go home.

(01:29:02):
It's going to be an amazing 10,highly pan selected.
For me there's an applicationprocess.
Just to make sure we get theright 10 people, what I would
say is go to my website,lockedonleadershipcom, see
Command Expedition in the topright corner, select on that and
just hit Apply.
Now you won't be obligated toanything.
It'll just schedule anappointment with me.
We'll talk about it and thenwe'll finalize things once I

(01:29:25):
have the dates in place.

Speaker 3 (01:29:28):
It's funny, in the military we do these staff rides
, I'm assuming like the Navydoes something similar, but in
the army, like we live and dieby this, especially in combat
arms.
And DC is like a wealth ofbattlefields in the Virginia
area and I would do this severaltimes and I've did it, I think
three throughout my careerVicksburg, the battle of New

(01:29:51):
Orleans and there was one more Ijust can't think of off the top
of my head right now.
But you walk these battlefieldswith a staff, your team, and
you go through the historicallessons learned and you do
really a root cause analysis.
You're seeing this terrain, theindividual, what they saw,
these were the decisions theymade, hindsight being 2020,

(01:30:14):
right, but how would you havethought through that problem?
And then, how can we distillthose lessons learned that were
hard fought on the battlefieldinto today?
Like maybe that's your civilianjob, it doesn't matter, it can
still help.
And I think you putting peoplein stressful situations outside
of their comfort zone is goingto expand their horizon and give

(01:30:35):
them way more confidence.
I want to jump in one of thoseplanes and have a dogfight with
someone, just because it soundslike it's an awesome time.

Speaker 1 (01:30:43):
It is an awesome time and, yeah, there's a little
selfishness on my part insetting that up, but because
it's, I mean I love that stuff.
But it's going to be more thanjust that from an experiential
piece.
Like, without giving away toomany secrets, what I can tell
you is that the leadersattending this this will be
hands-on leadership.
They will be asked to do thingsand to lead and to learn from

(01:31:06):
that.
So, yeah, this is experiential.
It's funny.
You talk about the staff.
A good buddy of mine is aretired Colonel, chris Kalenda.
He was a COO of Team Sabre overthere.
I don't know if you guys crosspaths or not, but air cab guy.
And now he has his own coachingprogram and now I know where he

(01:31:26):
got that from, but he does asimilar program where he takes
it to uh, antietam and thengettysburg.

Speaker 3 (01:31:36):
This is civilians and he walks antietam.

Speaker 1 (01:31:37):
That was the other battlefield that I got a chance
to walk and I couldn't rememberthe name of it, yeah.
So I mean, yeah it's, I've beento gettysburg, I've done uh,
obviously I didn't do it withthe military, um, and the navy
probably does something likethat at, uh, you know, command
school, but you know I didn't doit with the military and the
Navy probably does somethinglike that at a command school,
but I was a lieutenant so Ididn't have that opportunity.

Speaker 2 (01:32:00):
It's time for our final show segment that I like
to call the killer bees.
These are the same fourquestions that I ask every guest
on the Tales of Leadershippodcast Be brief, be brilliant,
be present and be gone.

Speaker 3 (01:32:16):
Question one what do you believe separates a good
leader from an extraordinaryleader?

Speaker 1 (01:32:22):
I think an extraordinary leader is somebody
who understands it's about thewin, win, win when they're
setting their people up forsuccess.
That means the company wins,their clients win, they win,
everybody wins.

Speaker 3 (01:32:39):
I'm going to quote Michael Scott, the regional
manager for Dunder Mifflin.
Have you ever watched theOffice?
Have you ever seen the Officeby chance?

Speaker 1 (01:32:46):
I'm aware of the show , but I've never watched it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:49):
I use that quote what you just said countless times
throughout the week, becauseyou're 100% spot on If you win
right, it's sustainable, but ifyou win wrong, it's short-lived.

Speaker 1 (01:33:02):
Yeah, it's not a zero-sum game.
If you're thinking it's azero-sum game, you're missing
the boat.

Speaker 3 (01:33:09):
So question two can you recommend one book or
resource or tool that has had ahuge impact on your leadership
journey?

Speaker 1 (01:33:16):
Yeah, I did a blog some time ago before, but then
if somebody said pick one book,it would be Chet Holmes, the
Ultimate Sales Machine.

Speaker 3 (01:33:26):
Okay, I want to write that one down.
So question three for someonejust stepping into their first
leadership role.
What should they focus on first?

Speaker 1 (01:33:36):
Removing the obstacles that keep people from
doing their job.

Speaker 3 (01:33:40):
And the last one, dave, is probably going to be
the hardest one when can ourlisteners connect with you?
How can they find you?
And then, how can they add toyour mission that you're
actively on?

Speaker 1 (01:33:50):
Sure, so connect with me on my webpage,
lockedonleadershipcomL-O-C-K-E-D-O-N leadership.
I won't spell that.
That's the easy one.
Com Sign up for my newsletter.
It comes out right now, twice amonth.
It is always insightful tips onleadership and there'll be some

(01:34:12):
resources available to you ifyou'd like them.
So I have a 20 page white paperon radical accountability.
So that's my book.
Might that'll be.
My next book is radicalaccountability, but it sort of
gives you some basic.
So the concepts it's theextension of my current book,
locked On Leadership.
They'll be able to.

(01:34:33):
There's some other resourcesthere that you can schedule some
time with me.
You can buy my book from thereas well, and I just recently put
up what I call my LORAT LockedOn Radical Accountability
Tactics Guide.
So these are 10 frameworks oftactics that you can employ
every day that I recommend youemploy every day in your

(01:34:54):
business, for everything fromhow to communicate clearly, how
to have the accountability, whatI call counseling sessions, how
to have those one-on-oneconversations.
There's 10 different frameworkswithin that that you can use to
help improve your business.

Speaker 3 (01:35:09):
Dave.
That's powerful.
I appreciate the time, brother.
It's been an absolute honor anda privilege to get to spend the
last hour and a half with youand talk about something that
I'm passionate about leadershipand is clearly evident in what
you're doing and you're livingevery single day.
So you inspire me to continueto do more, become more, learn
more.
So thank you for everything youdo.

Speaker 1 (01:35:28):
Thank you, joshua, for everything you do.

Speaker 3 (01:35:30):
You're out there on the tip of the spear right now,
so you know it's a precariousplace and we need men and women
like you out there willing to doit, or we wouldn't be able to
do the things we do.
I appreciate it, brother.
Have a great weekend you too.
Phenomenal episode.

(01:35:54):
I have a lot of key takeawaysfrom this one, but for this
after action review, we're goingto focus on the three that I
was able to distill down some ofthese.
It's funny, as I continue tofilm podcast episodes, I'm not
really learning necessarilyanything new or groundbreaking
in this episode.
I did, but I'm starting todefinitely notice themes, and I
talked about this before of asledgehammer mindset.

(01:36:17):
I've even wrote articles aboutthis, and it's something that I
have always embraced as a leader, and that's the first key
takeaway.
So, a sledgehammer mindset whatdoes that mean?
And if you were looking at thisin real time, I have a
sledgehammer in my.
What does that mean?
And if you were looking at thisin real time, I have a
sledgehammer in my background,if you've ever noticed that.
But what does a sledgehammer do?
It is a blunt force for change.

(01:36:39):
It can block, it can break, itcan chip, it can rust, it
doesn't matter.
It serves its basic purpose,which is to destroy what's ever
in its way, and that's whatleaders do.
There's four types of obstaclesthat the army defines.
They can block, they can turn,they can fix or disrupt Every
obstacle you face in your life,either in yourself or within an

(01:37:02):
organization.
You're going to encounter oneof those obstacles, but as a
leader of an organization, yourjob is to have a sledgehammer
mentality.
If your team cannot overcomethose obstacles, break down that
barrier, smash those goals soyour team can continue to move
forward.
And Dave summarizes thatbeautifully in how he talks

(01:37:27):
about overcoming obstacles.
Number two is accountability,and I mean that's really what
Dave is known for, and hisdefinition of accountability,
from my perspective, is one ofthe most refreshing and one that
I've never really heard ofbefore.
Because when I thoughtaccountability, I always thought

(01:37:48):
of like, there's a standardwithin the organization, there's
a bar, and if you're above thatbar, you're above the standard
in the organization.
If you're below the bar, youwill be held accountable.
That's a very black and whiteway of thinking about it, but
how Dave thinks about it is it'sreally an evolved way of
pulling it back into a muchmacro level, or, sorry, a micro

(01:38:12):
level way of definingaccountability, breaking it in
between the mechanics, themindset and the models.
Those are really the policies,the tools, and having the
confidence to go out and thatwas a theme that I've noticed
with Dave is that every job hehad, he always embraced
difficult challenges and pavedthe path of what right looks

(01:38:36):
like, and accountability isreally finding the root cause.
So if we go out and we do amission right and, for whatever
reason, we did not meet ourtarget goals, we get back, we do
an after action review, likewe're doing right now, or we do
a hot wash.
Why do we do those things?

(01:38:57):
So we can learn, why do we wantto learn?
So we can iteratively approveand even if it was successful,
you should still do an afteraction review or a hot wash so
you can make those 1%improvements exactly what Dave
talked about.
But accountability is lookingat those processes and

(01:39:17):
procedures and finding that keypoint of why it failed and
asking the question why did wefail?
Looking back, was it a policyissue?
Was it mechanics issue?
Was it not a proper resourcingissue?
Was it a people issue?
All of those things haveconsequences and that is where

(01:39:38):
you should apply the leverage.
When it comes to holding peopleaccountable isn't black and
white.
It's really identifying theroot cause of why people fail or
why organizations fail andhelping them move forward.
And maybe it's not in that samejob.
But that's the whole reasonthat you are a leader.

(01:39:59):
Leadership is not a popularitycontest, and I had a Sergeant
Majors tell me this before.
Leadership is not likership.
Sometimes you have to make harddecisions and people are put
within an organization.
They may not be the right fitfor specific roles, that's okay.
But you have to identify theroot cause of why people or
missions fail.

(01:40:23):
Those five levels of needs and Ithink that that was something
that's very impactful,especially from a leader, to
understand and I may butcherthese, just know that I'm not
looking at this in front, I'mjust solely recalling this from
memory, from the conversationthat I had with Dave.
But number one is it's allabout psychological needs.

(01:40:45):
It kind of goes back to thehygiene theory.
As a leader, you have to makesure that you're setting the
conditions and that's theenvironment for your team to be
successful.
Psychological needs are just amI in a safe operating space?
Number two is security.
Do I have the security aroundme to continue to move forward

(01:41:05):
and do my job?
Number three am I cared for anddo I belong?
Am I intrinsically motivated todo those things.
Number four esteem or statuswithin a company.
And number five you're doingwhat you're meant to do.
You're actually working towardsyour purpose and you have to
remember that, as a leader or asa company, your job is to set
those conditions.

(01:41:26):
Make sure that they have thathygiene, both psychologically
and personally, to do well andthey're equipped to do well.
That's the whole purpose ofleadership.
And then, going back toaccountability, all right, team,
do me a favor.
I always ask this, but Isincerely mean it.
If you found value in thisepisode, here's how you can help

(01:41:48):
spread my message.
First, make sure you like,share and subscribe to this
podcast.
Wherever you're listening rightnow, make sure you leave a
review and send me feedback.
I love to hear feedback fromyou guys because it makes me
better.
Right, I'm iteratively growing.
I know I'm not the best podcasthost out there, I'm probably
not the most eloquent when itcomes to words, but I'm

(01:42:10):
improving every single day andthat's the whole goal of it.
Right, and you can do that bygoing to Buzzsprout or you can
reach me onmcmillianleadershipcoachingcom.
Make sure you follow me onsocial media, and if you're not
doing that already, why aren'tyou, I'm joking.
You can find me at tells theleadershipcom or you can search
me by name.
And if you want to support theshow, uh, I would be humbled.

(01:42:33):
Um, I'm always looking for ashow sponsor.
So if you're listening to thisand your company aligns with the
core values of what I bring tothis world, I'm always looking
for a show sponsor.
Just reach out, and you can dothat by visiting tells the
leadershipbuzzsproutcom if youwant to donate or just support
the show financially.
And, as always, guys, I'm yourhost, josh McMillian, saying

(01:42:54):
every day is a gift.
Don't waste yours.
I'll see you next time.

All Episodes

#112 Dave Rosenberg - How Leaders Remove Obstacles and Create Success

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#112 Dave Rosenberg - How Leaders Remove Obstacles and Create Success