#115: Ben Eden - From HR Executive to Purpose-Driven Coach - Tales of Leadership

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Every behavior we do is based on an emotional need.
We want to feel a certain way.
That's why we turn to copingmechanisms, or that's why we can
overcome insane amounts of fearto go save somebody's life.
Because it's an importantemotional need.
That's why it works.
So when I understood that we areturning to these addictive
behaviors because of anemotional need, not because
we're bad people, that was agame changer.

(00:21):
So instead of judging me, Istarted to say, whoo, let me
understand the emotional need,and maybe I can meet it in a
different way.
So that's the foundation of whatI teach and why I do what I do,
because I turned it around and Isaid, Wow, if I'm the successful
HR professional who suffered insilence and felt this way, I
wonder if anybody else has.
And I turned to my professionalfriends and I said, Hey guys,
have you ever felt this waybefore?

(00:43):
And they said, Dude, we all do.
The problem is nobody talksabout it.

SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
You're listening to the Tells the Leadership
Podcast.
This podcast is for leaders atany phase on their leadership
journey to become a morepurposeful and accountable
leader.
What I like to call how.
Join me on our journey togethertowards transformational
leadership.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06):
All right, team, welcome back to the Tells the
Leadership Podcast.
I'm your host, Josh McMillian.
I'm an Army Leadership Coach,the founder of McMillian
Leadership Coaching, and thehost of this podcast, Tells the
Leadership.
And I'm on a mission to becomethe best leader that I possibly
can.
And I plan to do that bybringing on other purposeful,
accountable leaders or pals,those who lead with intention,

(01:28):
integrity, and impact.
I also grow myself every singleday through self-study,
leadership habits, andjournaling my experience, which
I will share with you throughthe lens of my leadership
journey.
And my ultimate goal is toimpact one million lives by
providing powerful leadershipcontent.
But before I begin again, I wantto arm you with some free tools

(01:49):
just so you know you have them.
You can go to McMillianLeadership Coaching.com slash
tells of leadership, and you'llfind every single podcast
episode that I've released withexclusive summarized articles
associated with them andleadership articles.
I post a leadership articleevery month, and I think I'm up
to 30.
And those are everything that Ido both in army coaching and in

(02:12):
my personal coaching.
Why?
Because I want you to be armedin this world to go challenge
yourself and be able to breakthrough those challenges that
you're going to face.
You can also go to Tales ofLeadership.buzzprout.com.
You'll be able to find all of mypodcast episodes there, or you
can listen on any platform,whatever you choose to, because

(02:32):
you can find this podcasteverywhere.
And as always, when you go tomake a million leadership
coaching.com, make sure yousubscribe so that way you'll get
notified when new podcasts orarticles are released.
But on today's episode, I'msuper excited to bring on Ben
Eaton.
He's a seasoned HR expert turnleadership coach and the driving
force behind reach your ultimatepotential.

(02:54):
Uh, with over seven years ofexperience as an HR executive,
Ben scaled a global company from2,000 employees to new heights,
rate rising from an HR intern toa global HR leader while
expanding the company's globalfootprint.
Now, through his global talentHR consulting, he coaches HR

(03:15):
professionals and businesses toachieve their full potential.
A senior certified professionalwith a bachelor's and a master's
degree earned at an acceleratedpace, Ben is also the author of
two transformational books, HowWe See Ourselves, Exploring the
Role of Self-Perception andLeadership, and Seven Steps to

(03:36):
Reach Your Ultimate Potential, asystem to overcome emotional
barriers and just excel in life.
He's fueled by this questionWhere is HR for HR
professionals?
He's become a sought-afterspeaker in HR conferences
worldwide, helping leadersreclaim optimism and resilience.
Ben believes the ultimate giftis helping people reach their

(03:59):
ultimate potential, a missionthat defines his work.
And this is a great episode.
And as always, make sure youstay at the very end, and I'll
provide you what those top threetakeaways are that I pulled from
this.
Ben, welcome to the Tells theLeadership podcast, brother.
How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 (04:16):
I'm so good.
Thanks for having me here.

SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
Yeah.
So I again I say this every oneof the episodes that I get a
chance to record, but I alwaysfind it uh humbling to have
conversations with other peoplethat share the same passion as
me, which is leadership.
And I think you are going to bea very interesting um guest on
the show because 90% of thepeople I have are from the
military, military background.

(04:40):
Uh, you I think uh come from acivilian background, especially
within HR.
So I'm very interested to kindof get your perspective on it.
But before we start, I alwayslike starting off with uh kind
of an asthmoth check of how youdefine leadership to kind of set
the tone for the podcastepisode.

SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
Ooh, great question.
Uh, one of the favorite waysthat I've heard about leadership
is being one who can inspireothers to be better versions of
themselves.

SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
I think that kind of goes exactly how I define
leadership.
So the army defines it aspurpose, direction, motivation,
or the power to influenceothers.
And I've always kind of thoughtthrough uh that word influence
in a way, kind of sounds toxicin a way, of like you're
manipulating people to dothings.
So, what's a better way of doingthat leaders inspire?
So I'm a hundred percent alignedwith how you uh define

(05:30):
leadership.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (05:31):
And can I add something to that?

SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (05:34):
So, to your point, where you know, influence is a
very powerful word, and there'sa lot of um, let's say, power
there.
But to your point, maybe somepeople interpret it as a little
bit of manipulation.
But the inspiring is whensomebody can see themselves in
you.
In other words, they're they'rethey're they're looking at Josh
and saying, Wow, I want to belike him.

(05:55):
Imagine what they are going tobe willing to do for you.
So, yes, it translates tobehavior, yes, it translates to
results, but there's nomanipulation at all.
There is tons of influencebecause they trust and respect
you, because they see themselvesin you, which is very powerful.

SPEAKER_01 (06:13):
Yeah, and it kind of goes back to a quote that I
always find myself going back toby John Quincy Adams is that if
your actions inspire others todream more, learn more, do more,
and become more you're a leader.

SPEAKER_02 (06:24):
There you go.
That's pretty much where mythought came from.
Well done.

SPEAKER_01 (06:27):
So we'll start off like uh just the early, early
times have been, right?
So I always like digging backinto your leadership journey at
at the beginning.
So start start there.
Where where did you believe thatyour leadership journey of where
you are right now began?

SPEAKER_02 (06:44):
Good question.
So, yeah, let's go way back,right?
I was raised in a family andenvironment where there were a
lot of leadership opportunitiesaround me.
I did the Boy Scouts of America,so there's a lot of leadership
there, and I earned the EagleScout Award.
Um with Oh, that's awesome,brother.
Yeah.
With church, there's theopportunities to serve as
leaders there.

(07:04):
I've been in choirs, I've beenin associations, and often I've
been presidents of thoseassociations.
So lots of opportunities tolead, but even then, as we all
know, leadership can happenwithout the formal leadership
title, right?
So I've had many opportunitieslike that, whether it's in
soccer or just traveling or justwith friends, where people say,

(07:25):
wow, Ben either has it togetheror he understands this, he's
smart, he's respectable, andtherefore he's the leader,
right?
So I've had a lot of thoseopportunities growing up,
whether it's formal or informal,and I've learned to love it.
I've learned that it's veryinteresting.
So not only do I study it, but Iactually help develop leadership
training programs today.

SPEAKER_01 (07:46):
Yeah, I think something that I want to pull on
there is that we can be in adirect leadership role, or we
can be in an influentialleadership role, meaning that we
don't necessarily have directinfluence or authority over
people.
And for me, that that wassomething that I struggled with
uh in the military, being incombat arms for a very long

(08:07):
period of time.
I had direct supervisoryauthority uh over people.
So it's easier when when you'regiven a clear task and purpose,
if you have direct authorityover someone to actually get
them to do the things that needsto be done.
But when you don't haveinfluence over people, you're in
like that indirect uh level ofleadership, that's much harder.

(08:28):
Um and that's really where theart and the science of
leadership come down.
So, how did you learn when youwere put in those leadership
roles involuntary, right?
How did you learn to kind ofovercome that and get to inspire
people to do the right thing?

SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
Well, here's what I've learned.
You can have what it comes downto is does the obedience or does
the following or does therespect from your followers,
let's say, does that come fromyour title, or does that come
from who you are?
Because, let's put these in somequadrant, let's say, right?
If somebody respects you for whoyou are, regardless of your

(09:04):
title, that's powerful.
If somebody respects you onlybecause of your title, then
that's a problem.
They don't respect you as aperson, they're just like, well,
I guess you're my boss and Ihave to listen to you.
But as soon as the day comesthat that title is not over me,
then I'm out of here.
I'm never gonna talk to youagain, right?
So I rarely have aspired toleadership.

(09:26):
I mean, it's rare that I say,well, I want that title because
I want to be in charge ofeverybody.
But my way of doing things ismore I like to understand how
this machine works, right?
This whole organization or thisdepartment or this project.
I like to understand it.
I like to get to know the peoplewho are on the team.
And yeah, not all not all thetime do we get along.
That's normal.

(09:46):
We're all human beings, but thenyou get to learn the skill of
working with people who may notbe like you.
And if you can learn to do thatand understand what's going on,
that's a natural fit forbecoming a titled or a formal
leader.

SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Yeah, no, I think that's powerful.
And I think two things too, inyour early childhood, I've
noticed several people that I'vehad on the show, an Eagle Scout
is like a common theme withinpeople who've like always
continued to inspire to becomemore.
But church is one I think that'sunique in a way that I've never
really had anyone bring that upin the past.

(10:22):
If I I come from uh a faithbackground with my family, I'm
very astute with going everySunday with my children to kind
of set them up for the valuesthat I think will make them
successful in life.
But you kind of growing up in uhthat background and having
church is a more active role inyour in your life.
How did some of the key tenetsof faith um really play an

(10:46):
impact in your early career andthen you starting off in the HR
realm?

SPEAKER_02 (10:51):
Beautiful question.
So I'll give you a little bit ofcontext.
Uh so I'm a member of the Churchof Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints.
Uh, some people used to refer itto as Mormons, and in it, there
are different, you know, as yougrow, you are placed in
different groups, let's say.
So when you're 12, you're adeacon, when you're 14, you're a
teacher, when you're 16, you'rea priest.

(11:12):
So those are different areas,and you can always have, they
call them callings.
So it's specificresponsibilities that you have.
So you can be president of thedeacon's quorum, or you could be
president of the teacher'squorum.
So even at 12 years old, you canhave a formal leadership
responsibility.
Now, of course, it's differentbecause you're young, but it's

(11:32):
fascinating and powerful becauseeven as a 12-year-old, the adult
leaders who support youencourage you to take the lead.
They encourage you to lead thelessons, to take care of your,
to take care of your brothers,to find out what their needs are
and how to meet them, how toplan the activities.
So even as young as 12, youstart to learn those kinds of

(11:53):
things.
And then I served a churchmission.
So for two years I was inBrazil.
And as a missionary, you have uhyou know you're set up in pairs.
So there's two missionarieswalking around Brazil preaching
the gospel, and you haveleadership opportunities.
One of you is senior, meaningthey've been there longer than
you, and so they are the activeleader that says, here's what

(12:16):
we're gonna do today, here's howwe're gonna teach, here's who
we're gonna teach.
And of course it's teamwork, butultimately there's somebody
who's a leader.
So how faith plays a role in allof this, especially when you're
young.
I mean, as a missionary, I was19 years old, learning
Portuguese, spending two yearsin Brazil, I've never been
there, never spoken Portuguesebefore.

(12:37):
And so there's a lot of, let'ssay, responsibility and
expectations placed on you.
It's easy to think, what do Iknow?
I'm 19.
I just barely graduated highschool.
You know, I've done one year ofcollege, which was my situation.
And sure, I don't have a fulldegree.
There's lots of things that Idon't know, but I am here mainly

(12:58):
because of faith.
I believe strongly in God andJesus Christ, and I say, look,
if they want me to do this, thenI believe that they will
strengthen me and qualify me todo this.
And what's super interesting,there's actually a book called
Jesus CEO.
Great book.

SPEAKER_01 (13:14):
Oh, I love that book.

SPEAKER_02 (13:15):
Yeah, right?
The principles pulled out ofthere are fascinating.
And really what it comes downto, even today, prophet of the
Church of Jesus Christ ofLatter-day Saints, his name is
Russell M.
Nelson, he shares any questionyou have can be answered by
studying the life and teachingsof Jesus Christ.
And if he so Russell M.
Nelson, he's 100 years old, he'son the list of who's who in

(13:38):
America, he's a very uhinfluential man and he's a
prophet.
So if he can say something likethat after all of his study, and
of course, you know, God speaksthrough him, all questions can
be answered by studying the lifeand teaching of Jesus Christ.
Wow, if you can trust that andhave faith in those answers,
that's amazing.
So any of our leadership roles,whether it's in the military,

(14:00):
whether it's stepping into a newleadership position at this new
company, where yes, you have alot of excitement because like,
oh yay, I got the formal title,I have the opportunity, I got
the promotion, I got the raise,and whatever it does.
But it also, if we're trying tohonest with each other, it comes
with some trepidation.
It comes with some, oh, this islonely, what am I supposed to
do?
And there's some overwhelm.

(14:21):
And in those moments, what do wedo?
Do we just push forward and wesay, Look, I'm the boss, you got
to listen to me?
Yes, some people do that.
They don't keep their employeesvery long.

SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
Or do they humble themselves and say, Wow, who
could I learn from?
Because the best leaders havebeen the greatest followers,
okay, because they know how todo that.
So then they can influence andinspire others how to do it.
And so, Christ, for example, ifyou study his life and
teachings, he's the ultimateleader.
People still follow him today.

SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
I think that that is one of the best books that
anyone can read to uh reallypull from the key leadership
lessons from scripture and applyit to modern business today.
So, one of the things thatalways has stuck with me, and
now I've kind of led with this,is an aerial perspective.
And that's one of the keychapters in the book, is that as

(15:12):
a leader, you have to pullyourself above.
And I I always go through thethe lens of the military because
that's where I cut my teeth,right?
But the battlefield.
If I'm at the tactical levelwith my troops, I'm only seeing,
you know, 50 meters out.
Um, and as a leader, you have tobe able to pull yourself out of
that tactical space to be ableto see the entire battlefield

(15:33):
and operate from an aerialperspective, understanding that
there's a bigger picture thanjust the obstacles that you're
seeing right now.
And and I love how you shape umexactly what I kind of look at
between two different types ofleadership uh philosophies.
I think there's a transitional,and there's tons of different
ones, but these are the two thatalways focus on transitional
leadership style and then atransformational leadership

(15:54):
style.
Transitional leadership habits,yes, you'll get success in the
short term, which you're hintingto there, but you will not
sustainably continue to grow andpush other people.
And I see that in the militaryall the time is that you kind of
go through these six phases ofleadership.
You get put into a situation ora position of where you have
rank, title, and authority.

(16:15):
But the first thing that youshould do before you actively
start asking people to do hardthings is to build those
relationships.
And if you cut that step, if youdon't focus on the people,
you're never going to achievethe results that are possible
unless you actually lead with aservant's heart and meekness,
right?
Like, which is one of the thingsthat I absolutely love.

SPEAKER_02 (16:38):
That's right.
That's right.
It reminds me of two examples.
When I was an HR executive, Ihad a coworker who I'm going to
tell you two stories of twodifferent co-workers.
One happened to be the boss'ssister, and she was in this
realm of leadership where shehad never been trained.
She was put in this place ofleadership, and she was a very

(16:59):
high performer.
So she could get things done tothe point where the boss, the
CEO, said, Wow, anything shetouches turns to gold.
Okay, cool.
But from the HR perspective, I'mthinking, yes, she gets results,
but she bulldozes everybodyelse.
Right?
But that was hard to see becausethe CEO is like, okay, sister

(17:21):
and results, so those are prettydarn important.
And I guess we can deal with theturnover, right?
I can change the story.
Or there's another coworker thatI had who did have formal
leadership experience.
She had come from being a VP ofyou know leadership at a large,
very large company, and she wasmore of, I will inspire and I

(17:43):
will lift up my people to getthe work that we need to get
done.
And that was amazing because howyou could tell the difference by
how these two talked.
The first, who bulldozedeverybody, said, I have to get
everything done.
If I'm not there, it will notget done.
And the other person said, Howcan I spend more time with this
person so that I can elevatewhat they need to do?

(18:05):
Guess who stuck around longerfor the leaders?
Which employees stuck aroundlonger?
Wow.
Option B.
You know what I'm saying?
These people loved working forthis person.
The other people wouldn't evendo an exit interview with me.
They say, No, I don't, I don'twant to answer these questions.

SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
Yeah.
You're speaking to my soulbecause I see the exact same
trends uh in the military, andwe kind of look through the lens
of like leaders who are put intopositions of influence, title,
and authority when theymicromanage, they're putting a
cap on their leadershippotential.
But when they allow themselvesto operate like for mission

(18:41):
command, have you have you everheard that term before mission
commands?
And essentially it just meanslike being able to delegate
authority down to individuals.
So you're giving you're allowingthem to be a part of the
solution and you're notmicromanaging, giving them the
influence and the ability andthe space to make tactical level

(19:01):
decisions that you yourselfcan't do.
And I always pull it from like abigger picture of just like
modern day battlefield, right?
Like if you look at like how theRussian military typically
fights, it's very hierarchical,meaning that the decisions have
to go all the way up to generallevels before you can make a
tactical level decision.

(19:21):
Well, time matters, especiallywhen uh you have a very short
dynamic time to make somethingwhen life and death is online,
versus with us, we empower ourjunior leaders all the way down
to really like a corporal levelor a buck sergeant and E5 to
make those levels of uhdecisions.
And what I've learned, and whatI I would love to hear, like

(19:42):
within the HR space that you'veseen too, is that the difference
is that you inspire a growthmindset, a problem-solving
organization's mindset versusyou're micromanaging and you're
making a problem uhorganization, meaning that they
can't solve their own problems.
They come to you every singletime.
And I don't want that.
At least when I grow in myinfluence, I want people to come
to me with a problem, hey sir,um, or hey Josh, we we

(20:05):
encountered this obstacle, buthere is two ways that we want to
get after it.
What do you think?
Like, hey, I think that's agreat idea.
Like, go go forth and conquer100%.

SPEAKER_02 (20:16):
So, yeah, I'll share some examples again.
The micromanaging mindset comesfrom many places, let's say, but
one has to do with fear, right?
The person's internal version ofthemselves, the way they see
themselves is if I don't get ifI don't get results, then I'm a
failure.
And I can't be a failure.

(20:36):
So I have to get these results,which means I have to have an
eye on everything.
I have to know exactly what Joshis doing at every minute, and if
I don't approve it, then that'sa problem.
Okay?
That comes from that mindset.
I haven't been trained, maybe Idon't have the trust, maybe I
haven't performed.
So this is my one way to knowhow to survive and succeed, is I
have to be in charge.

(20:57):
That's also called pace setting,a different term.
But if the leader is pacesetting, then nobody will get
ahead of him or her.
And to your point, they become abottleneck.
Everything has to go throughthis person, so it's a
bottleneck.
And they feel important, theylike to feel involved, they know
the answers, and that's cool,but ultimately the company or

(21:17):
the organization or the you knowthe troop is slowed down, and
that can be detrimental.
In the world of competition,they will out uh outpace you.
In the world of military, youmight get hurt, right?
And what's the opposite?
Exactly what you're saying ishow do I empower my people?
Guess what?
I'm I'm I happen to be in thisplace of formal leadership.

(21:40):
Wow, lucky me.
You know, sure, maybe I earnedit, but I'm sure there's some
other people who could do apretty darn good job if they
were in my position.
So I'm not the god here.
I don't have all the answers,and that's okay.
Certainly, I may have moreanswers than others because I
have that experience, I havethat vision, that's great.
You definitely do need thatsense of self-confidence,
certainly, okay?

(22:01):
But at the same time, if you cansee it as it's not up to me to
solve all of this.
I get to inspire my team tosolve this.
And so if I have a team, let'sjust say of 20, I can see it as
everything goes through me andwe're limited to my knowledge,
or how do I elevate all 20 of usso we can have synergy to have

(22:23):
incredible solutions?
Because the person at the frontof the line, 50 miles away, they
see things that I don't, and Isee things that they don't.
So if we together can say,here's the best answer, but at
this moment you know enough tomake the decision for yourself,
then two things happen.
Number one, they feel empowered,and because they feel that trust

(22:45):
from you as their leader, theygain more loyalty to you as
their leader.
And number two, you speed up thegrowth and the decision-making
power or process, because justlike you did as a leader, the
reason why you are there as aleader is because you've made
decisions.
Some of them were right, some ofthem were wrong, but you
learned.

(23:06):
And if you micromanage, you takeaway the opportunity to learn
from your people because theycannot make a mistake.
Therefore, they cannot try, theycannot risk.

SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
There's a powerful message, I think, that uh I want
to circle back on and just makesure I really like hammer this
home because I think you're spoton.
And then it comes back to thatfear mindset is that leaders
fear of losing power or theyfear of losing control or
whatever it is.
But really, it's fear offailure.
And what I've had to learn likeover time, like within

(23:37):
leadership roles, failure isinevitable.
It's going to happen, but wehave to kind of reframe how we
view failure.
And I've kind of learned this,you know, going get a systems
engineering degree,transitioning out of combat arms
and working in acquisitions, uh,now working in the field of
robotics, it's like a dynamicspace.
And how does engineering happen?

(23:59):
It happens incrementally withvalid user feedback.
And if you can learn that as aleader, that we never truly fail
as long as we learned from that.
If we learned and we identifiedwhy we failed, we can improve.
So next time we'll become backeven stronger.
And I don't know if you're likea comic book fan, but like
Doomsday, right?
Every time the Superman killsthat dude, he comes back

(24:21):
stronger because that is nolonger his weakness.

SPEAKER_02 (24:24):
Yeah.
And I'll share an example withthat too.
Are you familiar with the truck,the Ford Maverick?

SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:30):
So it's newer, but when they did it, how they did
it was they said, okay, we seethis need, we have this idea,
but instead of saying, guesswhat, we have this idea, let's
build a truck and make itamazing and hope you like it,
they literally did focus groupsand they built something and
they took it to some people andsaid, What do you think?
And they looked for thosesurprised yes moments or the

(24:51):
what are you doing moments.
So they got that feedback, andbecause of that feedback, they
designed the Ford Maverickaccording to that feedback and
they sold out when they firstlaunched it.
So, as leaders, what we need todo, to your point, is not avoid
failure.
Because if we are in a mindsetof avoiding, guess what?

(25:13):
We're not pushing forward, we'reliving in a place of survival.
So we're looking around in fear.
Who's gonna hurt me?
Where should I stop, right?
And if you're in a mindset ofstop, stop, stop, then that's
exactly what happens.
But if instead of avoid failure,you have the mindset of how can
I learn fastest?
How can I find the lessonsfastest?

(25:35):
Then sure, you say, okay,mistake there, awesome, we
learned.
Okay, failure there, cool, welearned, and bam, bam, bam, and
you'll get to the solutionfastest.
Here's one more example, realquick.
The iPhone.
The iPhone came out what, in2007, version one?
That didn't have the thewhatever megapixel camera they
have today, it didn't have theinternet like it does, it didn't

(25:57):
have all the apps, it didn'thave the storage, didn't have
the battery life, anything else.
If Apple had waited until theydid have all those things, we
still wouldn't have the iPhone.
The reason why we have what wehave today is because they
started back in 2007 with whattoday is considered garbage.
But at the time it wasrevolutionary.
So even in the military, anytype of leadership we say, okay,

(26:20):
together we're gonna do the bestwe can, we're gonna move
forward.
But instead of avoiding failure,we're going to accept failure
because it's a mistake or it'slearning, it's lessons.
Guess what, guys?
I've made mistakes too.
And I'm still the leader, youknow, the formal leader.
I trust you to be the leader ofyour area.
If it's just them in theirparticular area, I trust you to

(26:41):
be the leader in your area.
How can I support you in that?

SPEAKER_01 (26:45):
It's crazy to think that uh the iPhone came out in
2007 and how much it has grownsince then.
Like it's it's mind-bogglinglike what we are capable of
doing when we actually take thatiterative mindset and continue
to grow.
One thing I'd love to like takeit back to is like your journey,
right?
Like, how did how did you nichedown into HR?

(27:08):
Did you just know you were goingto go to college and study to be
an HR professional, or like howdid that passion for HR come
about?

SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
Great question.
No, after my mission that Imentioned in Brazil, I came home
and I was actually interested incomputer science.
I've always been a computer fan,very interested in how things
work, and I started going tothose classes, and I even got a
job with Microsoft.
I was demoing their newest andgreatest stuff at the time.
So literally, I had a superfancy laptop and I had what's

(27:36):
called the Zune.
It was like their iPod, which atthe time was super cool, big
screen and everything else.
I was like, wow.
So that was cool, but as part ofmy job, I had to demo it, which
means in the afternoon after myclasses, I just have to go
around college campus and say,hey guys, can I show you some
cool stuff?
And you fill out this survey.
And for a while that was fun,but after a while, it's like,

(27:58):
well, I've already talked tothem and they said no to me, and
I'm looking around, I'm startingto focus more on failure than on
growth.
So then so everywhere I looked,it's like, I don't want to do
that, I don't want to beembarrassed, I don't want to be
told no, and everything else.
So those kinds of mindsetsstarted to appear, but also I
was starting to feel lonely.

(28:19):
Because my other friends haddifferent jobs, or they were
still in class, so if I wasn'tbusy working, there was nobody
to hang out with.
So I was like, this isn't thelife I wanted, a bored, lonely
afternoon.
And so I started looking intoother options of what I could
do.
And I did what most or manypeople do is they go online and
take a test and say, What shouldI be when I grew up, right?

(28:42):
And funny enough, uh, it came upwith a couple things.
One, it said I should be alawyer.
Another, have you seen bornidentity?

SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
Uh oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
So Pam, the director, it said I should be
that person.
I'm like, oh, that's kind ofcool.
And the other was employeerelations specialist.
I had no idea what that was.
But I went and talked to acollege counselor, and she's
like, oh yeah, that's HR.
So I was like, I don't know whatHR is, I've never heard of it,
but if you want me to take introto HR, okay.
So I took it and it was verymuch common sense to me.

(29:16):
How you organize people, how youtreat people, how you get things
done through people, policies,procedures, and everything else.
I'm like, wow, this makes sense,and it was very easy to me.
I was top of the class in a lotof these things.
And so kind of got onto thattrain and just moved forward and
it was all making sense.
I finished my bachelor's degree,finished my master's degree in
human resources, and I evenbecame a senior certified

(29:38):
professional through theNational HR Association.
So yeah, HR was my world becauseit made sense.
Because I could study leaders, Icould emulate leaders, and I
could train leaders.

SPEAKER_01 (29:50):
I always kind of for me, we have a branch, or I guess
like a shop within most uhheadquarters companies, and they
call it S.
One S1 is our human resources.
They do the Art Gigar paperwork.
I think that they areunderutilized, at least from the
military's perspective of likehow the civilian world looks at

(30:12):
and views HR as a tool to helpindividuals and organizations
grow.
I think the military, we look atHR S1 shops just as like an
administrative portion.
I want to kind of like take itthere from your perspective,
right?
Like you spent a lot of timekind of climbing through the
ranks of global HR companiesbefore you started your own

(30:34):
company.
How did you change the minds ofleaders within those companies
that hey, HR is a tool in yourtoolkit that is going to make
the organization better?
It's not just here for paperworkand when bad things happen.

SPEAKER_02 (30:47):
Yeah, great question.
And I will tell you thatalthough I tried, it didn't
always work.
So this is actually part of thestory that explains why I am
here today, why I do what I dotoday.
So I told you the part where Iclimbed the ranks, I did the
education, I went from an HRintern to running the HR

(31:09):
department at an exec or sorry,at an executive level of an
international company.
And I had done what the worldteaches is the path to success.
Because they say, sure, go toschool, get your degree, get a
job, climb the corporate ladder,get the house, get the car, and
hey, you're successful, cool.
So I did all that in my 30s, orsorry, in my 20s.
Yeah, executive in my 20s of aninternational company, traveling

(31:31):
the world, having the nicethings.
And my friends in also in their20s say, dude, you made it.
How'd you do that?
And and for a couple of years,that was awesome because I was
meeting the definitions ofsuccess.
So I thought I should be happybecause I did what the world
told me I should I should do.
Followed the steps, right?

(31:51):
But one day, after I hadfinished my education, I didn't
want to go back for a PhD, so Isaid, what's next?
And my travel had started toslow down because we had reached
a size of company that said,well, it doesn't make as much
sense for the HR executive totravel, so we're going to
delegate it to some otherpeople.
So now I was kind of stuck atthe home office doing copy and

(32:12):
paste kind of things.
As we opened new locations, it'slike, well, I've done this 75
times, so let's do it a 76thtime.
But anyway, one day my boss, theCEO, who we had worked together
for at least five years by then,with him being my direct
supervisor, he came to me oneday after I had pushed this
agenda of HR can do so much foryou.

(32:34):
I understand your goals, Iunderstand how to reach your
goals, and I understand how tomove your people so that we can
reach your goals.
I see some problems.
If you would listen to me, wewould solve them.
Or if we could implement thissolution, imagine what it would
do for your company.
So I was trying to push allthese things, but one day my
boss comes to me and says, Ben,we have nothing against you.

(32:56):
We just hate HR.

SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 (33:00):
And so I'm like, what am I supposed to do with
that?
I had spent the last seven yearsplus defining my life on HR,
defining myself by HR, becausethe world says this is success.
This is the path I've decided tobe successful, and I have
defined myself as the successfulHR executive in my 20s.

(33:21):
But when my boss, the CEO, saidwe have nothing against you, we
just hate HR.
I thought to myself, well, youmust hate me because I am HR.
Everything that I've tried topush was now, well, we just kind
of don't like Ben.
We don't want him in the room.

SPEAKER_01 (33:37):
Yeah, it's been your identity.
You spent the majority of yourlife mastering that craft of
being the best HR representativethat you could be.
Yes.
So I can fully understand that.

SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
Yeah.
And so when they say they hatethat, it's like, well, that's
me, so you hate me, right?
It's like being in the military.
Well, I just hate uh I hatecorporals.
I hate people like this.
And you're like, okay.
So that changed and rocked myworld.
For years, that was my pinnacleof success.
I had reached it.
I thought, okay, now what'snext?
And then my boss, the CEO, who Ithought, okay, this is the real

(34:10):
world.
It's not school, it's notfriends, it's real world.
And the CEO is telling me thathe hates HR.
My world was crushed.
So now I thought, well, what inthe world am I supposed to do?
I didn't know where to turn.
So I started to turn internaland started to question myself.
Did I do the right thing?
Am I good enough?
People don't even care aboutwhat I do.

(34:30):
Do they even care about me?
And then it started to go evendeeper that says they don't even
want me in the room.
Do people even like me?
Should I even be in the room?
Right?
Now I never went to the realm ofsuicide, but it's very related
to those types of thoughts.
Because here's where I actuallywrote about it in my book, How
We See Ourselves.
When the mind doesn't like howit feels, it desperately

(34:53):
searches for a solution,anything to make it change how
it feels.
So for a time, society teachesus this, but also
high-performing malesspecifically.
Now, of course, it applies tomany others, but high performing
males specifically.
It says if you succeed, if youaccomplish, if you do, then
you'll feel good.

(35:15):
And that's why I did top of theclass and bachelor's, top of the
class masters, and so on and soforth.
Become the executive early, bam,because I wanted to feel good.
I wanted to feel successful.
When that didn't work inquotations, right, all of that
was a quote-unquote failure.
I thought, oh my heck, what haveI wasted my life on?
And where am I supposed to gofrom here?
Because this was my future.

(35:35):
This was my life.
So when all of that didn't work,I started to turn to other
things, which everybody hasthem, but I call them coping
mechanisms, self-medication,whatever you want to call it,
right?
Something that you do to feelbetter, whether it's binge
watching, you know, on Netflix,eating, shopping, or turning to
the more harmful things ofdrugs, alcohol, addiction,

(35:55):
pornography, whatever it is,right?
So when my brain said I have tofeel something different, I
turned to all those addiction orsorry, those coping mechanisms
and ultimately fell into theworld of addiction.
And guess what that does?
I mean, it makes you feel, sure,I'm solving a short-term problem
because at this moment I feelbetter.
But what happens afterwards?
You hate yourself.

(36:16):
You hate what you've done, youhate how you feel, and you hate
yourself.
And that's what I experienced.
So even though Ben, the EagleScout, the one who was raised in
the church, has good values, wasraised in a good family, was a
very successful HR professional,was now suffering in silence,
couldn't tell anybody becausewhen you have problems, you go

(36:38):
to HR.
So who's HR supposed to go to?
I'm a man, I don't share myfeelings.
I mean, all of these masks thatI had to wear.
And now that I was doingsomething that I hated and I
hated myself, I did not knowwhere to turn.
Until you know, I got deepenough into the addiction that I
started to see how it how I hadchanged the way I saw myself and

(36:59):
how it had changed the way I sawothers.
And I was not okay with what washappening.

SPEAKER_01 (37:06):
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(37:27):
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(37:50):
further at 10th Mountain Whiskeyand Spirit Company.
Back to the show.
I think that that's something Ideeply resonate with.
So self self-sabotagingbehaviors, right?
Like if we allow negativity tocreep in, even like in a minute
level, like mentally, uh thenwe're allowing darkness to come
in.
And I and I genuinely believethis is that we we are what we

(38:13):
believe, uh what we surroundourselves with.
It kind of goes back to thatquote um from Matthew.
I can't remember exactly whichone it is, but like we're the
light on top of the hill.
And we're providing that beaconof hope for other people.
And I think a lot of that islike mental too.
If I surround myself around anidentity, like I'll use the
military for one, because wewere talking about this before
we started the show.

(38:34):
Like one of my deep passions inlife is helping service members
find their passion after they'veserved.
And like when you give somethingholy or you give yourself over
to something just complete, likeHR in your case, or in my case,
go in to be a militaryprofessional, a a professional.

(38:54):
I've gone through countlessschools, I've gotten master's
degrees through this, uh, I'veled troops in combat in some of
the most chaotic places you can.
Like, that is who I am.
I am a servant leader in themilitary.
That is my identity.
And then after 20 years of that,25 years of that, you're told,
hey, thank you for your service,but now you gotta go do

(39:17):
something else.
And I see what you just said isfire.
People try to find short-termsolutions to fill that darkness,
and they use coping mechanisms,they use drug or they use sex or
they use uh alcohol, all thesethings that are toxic, that are
self-sabotaging, that are takingyou away from like what your
true purpose is.

(39:38):
How did you kind of breakthrough that uh self-sabotaging
behaviors to not necessarilyreinvent yourself because I
don't think you did, but toreally double down on this is my
purpose in life, this is myGod-given purpose, and I'm all
in.
Let's move forward.

SPEAKER_02 (39:55):
Yes, and thank you for allowing me to share this
part of the story.
First, I want to comment on whatyou said, and then I'll share
that part of the story becauseit's super, super common for
people to go through exactlywhat you said.
You build an identity and thenyou're told to leave.
Whether it's a layoff, whetherit's a thanks for your service,
whether it's an I don't want todo this anymore, everybody,
well, many people reach thismoment of I need to do something

(40:18):
else, but can I do somethingelse because I've defined myself
accordingly.
I have this title, I'm a VP ofthis, I this was my world.
How am I supposed to leave that?
And so, yeah, the brain says,well, uh, what worked in the
past was success, so go dosomething.
And what's easily in our controlis maybe the coping mechanisms
or maybe doing something.
And so people start to judge andsay, Wow, that guy got out of

(40:39):
the military and he just turnsto that, no wonder, right?
And they start to say thingsthat applies to everybody.
Oh, he was this, and now he'sdoing this, so here's the story
that makes sense so I can judgehim.
Guess what that does to theperson who's suffering at that
moment?
They're suffering with anidentity crisis, and now people
are judging them.
So what are they gonna do?
They're gonna turn moreinternal.

(41:00):
They're not gonna reach out.
You guys are judging me, so I'mgonna try to solve it myself as
I always have, turning deeperand deeper into the darkness.
But how do you get out of that?
Because, as, you know, I'llshare this in my part of the
story.
So, yeah, successful HRprofessional, people had even
said, Ben, you have the picture,perfect life, everything that
people want.
Okay, cool.
And at the time there were a lotof those truths, but a lot of

(41:21):
things that I felt was missingtoo.
And as I said, I got to thepoint where this addiction had
changed the way I saw myself andhad changed the way I saw
others, and I was not okay withit.
I was tired of living the doublelife, the suffering and silence.
Everything's fine here, butultimately I'm miserable, not
happy at all.
When at first people said, Ben,what do you do for work?
I'm like, well, you know, I doall these cool things.
After a while, they'd say, Ben,what do you do for work?

(41:43):
And I'd say, eh, I do HR.
I do HR, right?
That's it.
Didn't even really want to talkabout it.
So the addiction reached acertain level where I said, This
has to change.
Yes, I'm a successful,high-performing individual.
I'm used to getting success onmy own, but I've tried for years
to get rid of this addiction onmy own.
Has it worked?

(42:04):
No.
It's still with me.
It still haunts me.
I still hate it, right?
So I reached out for help.
I turned to my parents and Isaid, guys, I need help.
And thankfully they didn't judgeme.
They didn't say, dude, we'vetaught you better, man.
Get your own help, right?
No, they didn't say that.
They said, Great, let's get youthe help.
So they got me with my religiousleader, my bishop, and I said, I

(42:24):
need anything you can give me toget rid of this addiction.
So he directed me to a recoverygroup.
And as I looked into thisrecovery group, it cost money.
And I'm thinking, am I seriousenough to actually spend money?
Can I not just do this myself?
You know?
But I said, nope, this has tochange.
There are no options.
This is a must.

(42:44):
This has to change.
So I paid the money, and ithurt.
And I remember going to thefirst class, getting out of the
car and looking up at thatbuilding, and thinking to
myself, this is the moment.
This is the moment where I haveto admit to people what I've
been doing.
So now I have to take off themask of Picture Perfect Ben.

(43:05):
And people are going to see whoI am inside.
That's what I was thinking,right?
And I wasn't proud of whatpeople would see, right?
What I thought people would see.
I said, yep, if this has tochange, I'm just going to do it.
And I go into this room and Iremember looking around, and I
had all these things of what Ithought I would see, but I
looked around and I saw othermen that looked just like me.

(43:26):
They were successful businessowners.
They had degrees.
Many were fathers.
Many were husbands.
They were good people whohappened to turn to an addictive
behavior to feel better.
And when I made thatrealization, a weight was lifted
off my shoulders.
Because you have to remember,yes, the mask was Ben's picture

(43:47):
perfect, cool, he has everythingtogether.
But internally I hated myselfbecause I thought I was the
problem.
Nothing against you, Ben.
We just hate HR.
We just hate you.
That's what I thought.
I thought there was somethingwrong with me because I knew
better, and yet I'm turning tothis behavior.
Why would I do that?
Why would I do that?
Right?
Questions of me, the problem.

(44:08):
But again, when I learned thisand I realized that these are
other good men, then I thought,well, maybe I am still a good
man.
Maybe I am still a good person.
Maybe I can still do good thingswith my life.
Maybe I'm not the problem.
So that was crucial because Istarted to change the way I saw
myself, not as the problem, notas broken, not as impossible,

(44:29):
but as I'm still good, I canstill achieve, I can still have
a good life.
Okay, so then I can startunderstanding other things,
which here was crucial.
Every behavior we do is based onan emotional need.
We want to feel a certain way,that's why we turn to coping
mechanisms, or that's why we canovercome insane amounts of fear
to go save somebody's life.
Because it's an importantemotional need.

(44:51):
That's why it works.
So when I understood that we areturning to these addictive
behaviors because of anemotional need, not because
we're bad people, that was agame changer.
So instead of judging me, Istarted to say, whoo, let me
understand the emotional need,and maybe I can meet it in a
different way.
So that's the foundation of whatI teach and why I do what I do,

(45:12):
because I turned it around and Isaid, Wow, if I'm the successful
HR professional who suffered insilence and felt this way, I
wonder if anybody else has.
And I turned to my professionalfriends and I said, Hey guys,
have you ever felt this waybefore?
And they said, Dude, we all do.
The problem is nobody talksabout it.
That was in 2019.
I left my HR executive role inFebruary of 2020.

(45:34):
Good timing, I know.
And yes, believe that this isGod's calling for me.
God says, This is what I needyou to do.
I've taught you, you I've takenI've brought you through this
experience so that you know whatyou know so you can help the
people who are suffering insilence, who need to change the
way they see themselves becausethey are not bad people, they
are not broken.

(45:54):
There is nothing wrong withthem.
They are just suffering withsomething they don't fully
understand, and there is abetter way, and I want to help
them.
So I get to do that.
And after four years, actuallynow five, of coaching and
speaking on stages full time, Ihave seen a common denominator
of everybody that I help, nomatter the solution, no matter
the result that they're lookingfor, it always comes down to

(46:17):
this how they see themselves.

SPEAKER_01 (46:20):
Oh wow.
How do you get people to breakthat mindset?
So and I can completely resonatewith it.
Like in and to provide somelevel of you know vulnerability,
because you you shared somethingvulnerable, is that like I've
always done well in leadershiproles, right?
And I mean I I've won awardsmarked around leadership
excellence, but I've lostsoldiers.

(46:42):
And some of those positions thatI was given awards for, I 100%
do not believe I deserved it.
I think I was a poor leader, Iwould think I was a bad leader
because I've lost soldiers tothings that shouldn't have
happened.
And I began to wrap my identityaround, I have to achieve, um, I
have to continue to do more, Ihave to continue to try to chase

(47:05):
all these medals and things toreally cope with some underlying
emo emotional trauma that I wasfacing about, hey, you know, I I
lost good men, and I a hundredpercent could have prevented
those things.
I, like you, just solved my ownproblem.
I didn't really go out and likeseek guidance like how you did,

(47:25):
which is awesome, because Ithink that leadership starts
with ourselves, and unless we'rewilling to pour into ourselves,
mind, body, and soul, we'renever going to continue to move.
But I started journaling, Istarted like really getting back
into faith.
I started like asking hardquestions myself and just
sitting in silence and readingbooks and like meditating on
those topics until I began tobreak through and really

(47:48):
understanding why.
I I understand everyone'sdifferent, right?
Like, I have that level offortitude.
Maybe it's because like I'mScotch-Irish background and
we're just stubborn people uhthat I was able to kind of break
through that.
Uh, but with you, when you'recoaching these individuals, how
do you get them to change theirparadigm?
Like, hey, this is how you seeyourself, but here's some tools.

(48:09):
This is how you should bethinking.

SPEAKER_02 (48:11):
Yeah, great questions.
And it's an art, right?
If I could just give thesolution, then this would sell a
million copies already.
But it is definitely an artbecause it's different for
everybody, and I can't just tellyou, I have to help you discover
it, right?
Because God was trying to tellme the whole time, but I had to
discover it.
So, let me give an example.

(48:32):
This is what I actually do incoaching.
People can watch this recordingand they'll notice what I'm
going to point out right now.
In what you exactly just toldme, Josh, you told me two
separate mindsets.
You first said turning toachievements.
I had to succeed.
I wasn't a good leader because Ihad poor results.
You didn't say poor results, butyou said I lost soldiers, right?

(48:55):
But that's in the category ofresults.
If I hadn't lost soldiers, thenI had good results, and I'm a
great leader.
Yay.
But because I didn't, I didn'tget the results, I was a poor
leader.
So you've defined yourleadership, yourself as a leader
by your results.
Did you catch that?

SPEAKER_01 (49:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
100%.

SPEAKER_02 (49:12):
And then what you did is when you said, Oh, I'm a
Scottish-Irish descent, you hada different energy level.
You were talking about youridentity in a positive, fun way,
right?

SPEAKER_00 (49:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (49:23):
That is key.
Those are some things that Ipoint out to people because when
you defined yourself by yourresult, your emotional energy
was negative.
When you defined yourself by whoyou are, by what's important to
you, your emotional energy waspositive.
Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 (49:40):
100%.

SPEAKER_02 (49:41):
So I help point that out to people, and I help people
change the way they talk, changethe way they focus, and change
the way they think.
Because if I can help reprogramyou to instead of uh you know
talk exactly the way we did,okay, results, and if I have it,
I'm great, if I don't, I suck.
To well, who am I at my core?

(50:02):
And I'm not gonna get perfectresults every time, but that's
okay.
I can still be a leader, I canstill be a good person.
Guess what?
I am still a good person, I amstill a leader, then you will
happen to get the good resultsplus some.
Okay?
And this is the key of everytransition that we're talking
about.
I'm gonna give you this link,Josh, so you can share it with

(50:22):
your listeners.
But this is a picture of theEden model, which is described
in my book, how we seeourselves.
So I'll give you this link.

SPEAKER_01 (50:28):
I was getting ready to ask you that question next.
That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 (50:31):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'll give you this link sopeople can see it, because I
know in a in a screen sometimesit's tough.
But what it does is it exactlybreaks down this process.
And I'm gonna give you one morestory just to make it all super
clear for everybody listening.
When we're in school, they'retaught we are taught to chase
results because you're supposedto get certain grades.
And if you get A's, what doesthat mean about you?

(50:53):
You tell me.

SPEAKER_01 (50:54):
Uh, if I get A's, then that is uh it means I am
smart.
It means that I am skilled andthat I can go to college all
these things.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (51:04):
So we have a ton of meaning associated with a grade.
And ultimately, sometimes we sayto ourselves, or maybe our
parents or a or a loving personsays, that's an A student.
My boy's an A student.

SPEAKER_01 (51:15):
So we put you put bumper stickers on the back of
your card.

SPEAKER_02 (51:18):
There you go.
I know, right?
So we give identities toourselves based on the grade.
But Josh, what happens if youget an F?
What does that mean about you?

SPEAKER_01 (51:26):
So I have a I have a legitimate story behind this,
but I'll keep it uh I'll keep itshort and sweet.
It sours me against school.
It makes me not enjoy school, itmakes me uh become less
involved, like in theday-to-day, but also like
self-study.
I'm not going to improve myselfbecause I'm going to suck at
this.
So why do I even want to try?

SPEAKER_02 (51:45):
Oh, there you go.
That happens.
Good.
And so for the benefit of alllistening, I literally do this
on stages, so thank you fordoing it here.
What does it make you what doesit mean about you if you get an
F?

SPEAKER_01 (51:56):
Now or in the past.
Or in the past.

SPEAKER_02 (51:59):
When you get the F, what does it mean about you?
I felt that I was a failure.
There you go.
And that's interesting becausethe F grade does not mean
failure.
It means a failing grade.
And yet, most people, again, Ido this on stages, and this is
what most people say.
They think it means you are afailure, but it doesn't mean
that.
Okay?
But that's that's what we'velearned through school,

(52:21):
therefore, that's what weexperience through work, through
military, through whatever we'regoing through.
If we get the result that isaccepted by everybody, that we
define as success, then thatmeans I am successful.
Therefore, I'm a good person.
If I get the result that islooked at as a failure, then by
definition, I am also a failure.

(52:42):
So let's go through thisexample, right?
Somebody is told after 25 yearsof military, thanks for your
service, good luck.
Then we can have whateverinterpretation that we want and
say, you know what, either I wasan amazing leader, that was the
coolest 25 years of my life,awesome, or we could look back
and say, well, because I lostsome people, because I didn't do
this perfectly and everythingelse, then my definition of my
25 years experience in themilitary was I was a failure.

(53:04):
That's an option.
Okay, so I'm just giving youcontrast.
But it's important to understandthat because as we move forward,
that's important to know thisdifference.
If we keep the mindset of myidentity is based on my results,
then what we will do movingforward is we will stress out
and say either I have to getthis next degree, or I have to

(53:24):
become a titled leader in thenext six months, or I have to
get something done, because if Idon't, who am I?
I'm a nobody.
And that sucks.
We do nobody wants to feel likethat.
And if that doesn't work at thetimeline that we want, we turn
to coping mechanisms, whicheventually turns into addiction
and so forth.
That's literally the psychologyof why things happen.

(53:45):
So how do you flip it?
This is back to your point.
How do we flip it?
And this is what I teach.
You'll get a copy of this Edenmodel, and of course, you can
get the book, How We SeeOurselves.
But it explains how instead ofstarting with the result, you
start with your identity.
Who am I regardless of myresults?

(54:07):
Regardless of the results in themilitary, who am I today?
What did I learn?
Who have I become?
What's important to me?
And instead of saying, whatdegree do I need to earn in the
next 12 months in order tobecome somebody?
You reverse the question andsay, Who do I want to be in 12
months?
And when I am that person,because here's the power of the

(54:27):
mind.
If whatever the mind canconceive and believe it can
achieve, we can literally looksorry, literally look into the
future and see it.
We can visualize it.
That's the power of the mind.
So you can look forward 12months.
I'm getting chills as I'mtalking about this.
You can look forward 12 monthsand say, who do I want to be?
Sure, I just left the military,sure I was just laid off, sure I

(54:47):
just left my job of 25 years.
Who do I want to be in 25, orsorry, in one year?
Visualize that person and thenreverse the process and say,
Great, well, what results doesthat person get?
How does that person feel aboutthemselves?
How does that person talk aboutthemselves?
And this is what I do incoaching.
When we can answer those betterquestions, we get better

(55:11):
answers.
And here's what's cool.
You can see that person that youwant to be in 12 months, but you
can be that person today.
You can feel that courage, youcan feel that confidence, you
can feel that accomplishmenttoday.
And with that positive energy ofknowing who you are regardless
of your results, you will notonly achieve better results in

(55:33):
12 months, but even if theresults that you thought you
would get don't look exactly howyou thought they would, you
won't feel like a failure.
You say that, okay, you know, Istill know who I am.
I learned, sure, the housedoesn't look the same, but I got
something better.

SPEAKER_01 (55:48):
I love that.
So what you just described issomething that I learned through
like my own self-reflection, andI kinda I call it uh inside out
thinking.
Most of the time, and I see ituh day to day, that we're always
focused on outside in thinking.
And I I really like I so I I'man infantry uh at my core,

(56:09):
infantryman at my core, so Ilike to follow the KISS model.
Keep it simple, stupid.
Uh so that's how my brain works.
And I think of it as like anonion, right?
Like we have different layers ofan onion, which is like one of
the most overused metaphors, butlike at the core of that model
is the values.
What am I uh at my values level,my principles level, my

(56:32):
integrity of how I show up inthis world?
The next level is the behaviors,the deeds that I'm following
through every day.
Are they aligned with thosevalues and those principles that
who and how I see myself and whoI want to become?
If I have the right values andwith the character of who I want
to be, and I'm emulating thoseevery single day, then the

(56:53):
outcomes will come naturally.
But if I chase those outcomesand I neglect the behaviors uh
or the habits that are going toget me there and the values and
the principles that are gonnaguide me there, I'm never going
to get to those out uh endgoals.
And it what you just said isabsolute fire.
And it it it's end of the day,I'd love to see your Eden model.
So I know you're gonna share itwith me, but I'd like to dig

(57:14):
into that.
And I I kind of want totransition now, and I know you
shared your book a lot, but whatinspired you to write that book?
I know you wrote two differentbooks, right?
So Seven Steps to Reach YourUltimate Potential was the first
book that you wrote, and thennow you just uh wrote How We See
Ourselves.
I think writing a book, at leastfor me, is always a daunting
thing.
So, first of all, I'm alwaysinspired by individuals that

(57:36):
actually take the leap and theydo that because it's a
commitment.
And I know it's not a short-termcommitment, it's a long-term
commitment.
But what inspired you to writethose two books?
And then if you could, uh couldyou share something from uh your
latter book that you wrote inthe past?

SPEAKER_02 (57:52):
Yeah, definitely I'll share it.
I do want to comment onsomething you said.
I love how you phrased it withthe values and the behaviors and
the results, right?
That's that's exactly what mymodel goes through.
When if we focus on results asthe primary, then we may do
something that offends ourvalues.
And that's that's what manypeople go through, but they
don't understand why.
It's like, shoot, I got theresult, but now my life is

(58:14):
nearly over, right?
Because I've I've betrayed who Iam at the core.
But when you do it in the waythat we're talking about, inside
out, or starting with identityfirst, then we won't cut
corners, we won't be unethical,we won't betray our own values
in order to get a result.
So another thing that we don'thave time for, but the Eden
model helps us redefine whatsuccess means to us.

(58:36):
And that is super importantbecause everybody's chasing
their own definition of success.
And if you can align who you arewith your success, that's where
you experience fulfillment.
But if you achieve what youthink is success to the
detriment of who you are, thenyou're not experiencing
fulfillment in any way, andyou're on the never-ending race
to achieve success.
So just wanted to point that inthere.

(58:58):
But why I wrote the book, How WeSee Ourselves, first of all, as
I was coaching these people, youknow, over the last five years
and speaking on stages andseeing this common denominator,
it always came down to howpeople see themselves.
That was pretty much given tome, this wording, how they see
themselves, how they seethemselves, how I see myself.
That was the language peopleused.
And so as I started, or as I wasstudying entrepreneurship,

(59:22):
people often said, well, find asolution that solves a lot of
problems and build a productaround it.
So that's what I was doing in mycoaching models, but now it's
like, oh, well, now I can put itinto book form and get it into
millions more hands than I coulddo with my own time.
So I put it into a book.
Now, part of the process, thisis helpful helpful for any

(59:42):
aspiring authors, is I had a lotof this uh content came from
attending conferences, listeningto books, talking to people in
conversations like this, andhaving inspirational thoughts.
This is God saying, Hey, this isimportant, this is important.
And I'm a guy who takes notes.
So my phone was full of allthese notes.
And after pages and pages andpages of notes, I was like,

(01:00:05):
well, I probably have a book inhere.
I never had the plan growing upto write a book, right?
I was never in my uh list ofthings to do.
But as I had all this content, Ithought, well, maybe I do have a
book.
So I put it all onto my computerand it had about 40,000 words.
I had a coach at the time, and Isaid, hey, I have 40,000 words
of a book, isn't that awesome?
And she's like, well, you need60,000.

(01:00:28):
I'm like, well, dang it.
So I got pretty discouragedbecause I'm like, I put I put a
ton of work into this.
How am I supposed to write20,000 more words?
So at the time I was like, well,I guess that's a project for
another time.
But two years later, again,after coaching more people and
seeing this common denominator,this was when God said, You need
to write the book now.
I said, okay.
And so it was May of 23, and Igave myself a date.

(01:00:52):
You know, I saw myself in thefuture, I manifested, and I gave
myself a date.
And I said, I am going to havethis book be a bestseller by
December 1st.
So I spent, now I have fivekids, okay?
So I spent, I spent the latenights and the early mornings
writing, writing, writing, and Ihad to learn through speaking
and through trying, literally,this iteration kind of thing.

(01:01:13):
It wasn't what it was the firsttime, it wasn't what it was the
seventh time, and so forth.
But as I continued to try andtest and just write, write,
write, it started to cometogether.
I had the format, I had what wasneeded.
And it came to a point where Isaid, yep, this is where it
needs to be.
This is good enough to get out.
And I say good enough becauseit's never going to be perfect.

(01:01:35):
And I launched it the day afterThanksgiving, and I became a
bestseller.
So yeah, so it's awesome.
And you know, I give the creditto God because He inspired me on
the title, He's helped me withthe content, He's given me my
personal story and everythingelse.
And that's helpful to knowbecause as an author, you can
have those negative thoughtsstill come in and say, who's

(01:01:57):
gonna listen to you?
Why would you why are the whyare you the authority on this
kind of thing?
That's like, well, look, it's mystory.
You can't argue with my story,and it's supported by a lot of
things.
Anyway, I'm not gonna go intothese those details.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:09):
No, I'm just saying, like what you just said too is
like very powerful, is that wealways have those
self-sabotaging thoughts comeback, regardless of the level of
success or where we findourselves in our life, that
darkness is always going to tryto creep its its its way back
in.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:22):
Yes.
And you know, now that you saidit, it reminds me that sometimes
that happens so that you cancontinue to relate with the
people you're talking to.
I mean, if it's like, oh yeah, Ihaven't experienced a negative
voice in seven years, people aregonna like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:37):
Well, who are you?

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:39):
But if but if I can say, yeah, I experienced it this
morning, and I can share apersonal story, then whoever's
listening can say, Wow, this guygets it.
He understands what I'm goingthrough, and not only that, but
he he he has tools that can helpme get through this.
Because living with thatnegative voice is not fun.
And the problem is most of uslisten more, or let's say
believe more the negative voicethan we do the positive one,

(01:03:02):
that it's also always there.
That's that's a section that'sgonna answer your question.
That's a section in this book.
I call it the voices in ourhead.
They're there.
But if we can learn which one tolisten to, then we can learn
permission.
It's actually a military storyin there.
If we can learn permission toactually get rid of and destroy
that negative voice, you do havepermission to do that.

(01:03:24):
You don't have to be nice andsay, oh well, please don't talk
to me.
No, get out of here.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:29):
It's funny, like I think there was a Harvard study
or something.
It came across my feed one day,uh, and it basically said is
that we all talk to ourselves.
And it's funny if you reallythink about that, like, and you
catch yourself like legitimatelyhaving conversations in your
mind when you ask yourselfquestions or you think talk.
And that's something that uh agood buddy of mine uses that
term think talking.

(01:03:50):
But it's true is that we have uhthat inner voice inside our
heads of when we're coming upwith a hard question or we're
wrapping ourselves around a hardproblem, we kind of formulate
our own thoughts, and thosethoughts are jumbling around.
And there's definitely differentversions of Josh out there, like
you have like the little angelon your shoulder, and you have

(01:04:11):
the little demon on yourshoulder, and like getting up
every morning.
Little demon's like, Josh, youdon't have to get up, sleep an
extra hour.
It'll be okay.
The world will go on, and thenthe angel's like, hey, bro, like
we need to start off with whenit's time to get up because you
know that you're going to punishyourself if you don't get your
workout in before you go to workand you're going to be poopy.
It's like those Snickerscommercials, in a way, uh, if

(01:04:33):
you remember any of those.
So, dude, I I I love that uhthat you're taking continued
inspired action, uh, writing abook, continuing to help build
what I like to call apurposeful, accountable leader
pals.
But what's what's next for you?
So you're you're a publicspeaker, you run a successful
company, you wrote severalbest-selling books.
What are you working on now?

(01:04:55):
Any current projects or anythingthat you want to do in the
future?

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:58):
Yeah, so of course I'm trying to get the book into
as many hands as possiblebecause people need to learn it,
right?
Everybody's experiencing thenegative voice, everybody's
experiencing the do I chaseresults or do I stay true to who
I am and who am I in the firstplace kind of thing.
So that's key.
But another specific thing thatI'm doing is I'm actually
certifying people in the Edenmodel.

(01:05:19):
So people can learn the model insuch a way that they can teach
it to others.
So my goal is to create acommunity of certified Eden
model practitioners so that wecan get this message out in a
way that it's not just, oh,that's interesting, thanks for
sharing the Eden model.
But no, I've been transformed bythe Eden model.
I define myself based on who Iam and my values, and I happen

(01:05:42):
to get amazing results, versusthe I'm only happy if I get the
results.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:47):
Yeah, I love that, brother.
It's time for our final showsegment that I like to call the
killer bees.
These are the same fourquestions that I ask every guest
on the Tales of Leadershippodcast.
Be brief, be brilliant, bepresent, and be gone.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:06):
Question one
extraordinary leader in youreyes?

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:13):
Wow, these are good questions.
Along the vein of what we'retalking about, I would say the
good leader is one who has doneenough personal work that they
no longer have to focus onthemselves, but they can fully
focus on you to inspire you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:29):
Second question is what is one resource?
Um, it could be a book, itdoesn't matter, a recommendation
that you can provide right nowthat has had a significant
impact on your leadershipjourney.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:42):
Probably the 21 Irrevocable Laws of Leadership
by John Maxwell.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:48):
John Maxwell, yeah.
I do, I love that guy.
And to okay, I'm breaking myrules, but John Maxwell, if you
understand how he thinks throughleadership, it's biblical.
At the end of the day, he modelsa biblical leadership style like
Alpha and Omega, right?
Yeah.
Um okay.
Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:07):
Well, let me say one thing real quick.
My father-in-law, he's a verysuccessful man, and I was
talking to him the other day.
I was like, hey, you'resuccessful.
Tell me about some books thatyou've read that have uh led to
your success.
And he's like, you know, I'veread a lot of books, but really
nothing teaches leadership andsuccess as well as the
scriptures do.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:25):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:28):
It goes back to that one book, too, is I really think
that people, if you haven't gota chance, G's a CEO.
It's a short, fast read, and itit will provide you tools in
your rucksack that will help youevery single day, regardless of
wherever you are in yourleadership role.
All right, number three, forsomeone that's just starting off
in their leadership journey,what should they focus on first?

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:49):
You know, what's coming to my mind is find a
mentor.
Find somebody who believes inyou as a person so you're that
can help you, not just focus onwhat can I achieve next.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:00):
I love that, brother.
And then the last one, easiestquestion of the day, is where
can our listeners find you,connect with you, and add to
your mission?

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:08):
Oh, I love that.
Uh so I'm very active onLinkedIn.
It's Ben Eden or Ben EdenSpeaks.
That's also on Instagram andFacebook.
Those are my primaries, but Ialso have a website.
It's actually calledreachyourultimatepotential.com.
That's where you can learn aboutall my speaking and coaching,
where you can get a copy of thebook and follow my journey, but
most importantly, be part of thejourney.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:29):
Yeah, I love that, brother.
Ben, it it's been an absolutehonor.
Thank you for sharing the pasthour with me to kind of walk
through what inspired you,especially around the the skill
of being an HR specialist,right?
Like that that is a very hardthing to do, especially
nowadays, of me seeing it withinthe civilian role and the
purposeful action that you'recontinuing to take every single

(01:08:51):
day.
It's like people like you thatkeep me motivated and inspired
to do what I'm doing for ourcountry, but we continue to run
this podcast.
So I appreciate it, brother.
Thank you, and thank you forthank you for what you do as
well.
All right, have a great day.
I appreciate it.
All right, team, it is time forour after action review.

(01:09:12):
That was a great episode withBen Eden.
So I have three key takeaways.
Let's jump right into numberone.
Number one is all aboutincremental growth.
And this is something that itreally is going to touch on two
of the key takeaways.
But remember, in engineering,iterative development is all

(01:09:33):
about getting a goodrequirement, getting great
feedback while you're doing thatdev cycle, either software or
hardware, and then incrementallyimproving that design until you
get a production level product,right?
Well, the same is true in life,the same is true in leadership.
We're all on this journeytogether.

(01:09:55):
And you have to continue toimprove yourself.
If you're not improvingyourself, as Dave Rosenberg said
in the past, then you're you'redying.
We're either pushing ourselvesbeyond our comfort zone, and we
do that by iteratively improvingourselves daily.
Again, that 1% or that 0.05%.

(01:10:15):
It doesn't matter as long asyou're moving the needle forward
and you're improving everysingle day.
Because remember, life is amarathon, it's not a sprint.
And you have to be able tosustain that level of energy
throughout.
And it goes back to the rule of100%, right?
You only have 100% capacitywithin a given day.
And if you are only giving 80%,if you're only giving 75%

(01:10:36):
because you're not fully in it,right?
You can't give 125%, 130% thenext day.
That's mathematicallyimpossible.
And I always hate when leaderstell me I expect 110% out of
you.
Well, sir, you're gonna get 100%out of me, and you're gonna get
the best 100% that I have forthat day, right?
Like because each day isunequal.
Like if there's a death in myfamily or I am going through

(01:11:00):
some type of hardshippersonally, my 100% may not look
like my normal 100%, and that'sokay.
But we get through those thingsby improving ourselves, and
that's iterative development.
So challenge yourself, go dosomething new that you've always
wanted to do and improveyourself.
Number two is focus on growth,not failure.

(01:11:23):
So we again the first one kindof feeds into this, and this
will feed into the third one.
When we focus on failure, wefeed into those self-sabotaging
behaviors, those feelings of I'mnot good enough, or no one
respects me, or I'm going tolose power, or I'm going to lose

(01:11:44):
control, or I'm going to lose myauthority.
All of those are fear-basedself-sabotaging beliefs.
You have to be able to focus onthe growth, the long-term
perspective.
Who do you want to become?
And that feeds into numberthree, which is the Eden model
of what Ben kind of walkedthrough, but I kind of think of

(01:12:06):
it as outside inside outthinking.
Start off at the core,regardless of where you are
right now in life.
What are the values and theprinciples that hold true?
Those values and principles aregoing to be critical because
those are going to lead into thenext layer, which is the
behaviors.

(01:12:26):
Remember one of the quotes I useall the time.
I'm going to get this tattooed.
Deeds, not words.
I don't know where.
I'll figure it out, maybe on myforearm or something like that.
But if you want to emulate thevalues and the behaviors, the
principle or the values and theprinciples, that's how we start
to gain momentum in life when wefocus truly on growth.

(01:12:48):
And the final one is outcomes.
Too often people are focused onoutside in.
They see these big obstacles orthese they see these big
outcomes.
And like, for example, running apodcast.
I'm going to start a podcast andI'm going to get 20,000 views in
my first 10 episodes.
I have over a hundred episodesreleased and I'm around like

(01:13:10):
maybe 15,000 views.
That's okay.
But if I set unclear,unrealistic goals for myself in
the short term, it's notsustainable.
But if I focus on who I want tobecome, what are those values?
What is those principles thatare going to guide me?

(01:13:31):
Then what are the behaviors thatI need to do every single day,
those habits to emulate to getto those outcomes?
And here's a great metaphor thatI heard from uh David Braun, uh,
one of the founders of ULA,which is like a life coaching
company.
But he uses this metaphor of uhSkittles and Oranges in a mason
jar.
And how do you fit an orangewhich represents a very big

(01:13:56):
goal?
Could take a year to achieve.
And then Skittles, which is allthe individual tasks that lead
up to accomplishing that biggoal.
You have a hundred Skittlesversus one orange, right?
They weigh equal amounts.
You cannot put an orange rightinto a mason jar.
You you may, but it's going tomanipulate its shape.

(01:14:16):
It's not going to be the samedesired outcome that you were
hoping for.
But every single day throughconsistent action that's aligned
with your integrity, with yourvalues and your principles, you
put one Skittle in a jar.
And eventually, before you knowit, you're going to begin to get
uh cumulative growth and you'regoing to speed that process up.

(01:14:36):
And then eventually, all hundredSkittles are in there, and you
have just now achieved youroutcome and you weren't even
focused on it.
You were just focused on theday-to-day, being the best
individual that you possiblycan.
All right, team, do me a favor.
I always ask this, but Isincerely mean it.
If you find value in thisepisode, help me spread the

(01:14:56):
word.
Make sure you like, share, andsubscribe this podcast wherever
you are listening.
Leave a review, send mefeedback.
I love hearing feedback becausethat's how we improve, right?
We just talked about thatiterative development.
And you can do that through BuzzSprout, or you can go to
McMillion LeadershipCoaching.com.
Make sure you follow me on Tellsthe Leadership.
You can go at Tells theLeadership or you can even

(01:15:18):
search me by name.
I don't know why, but there's alot of people out there who've
created fake accounts for me.
I'm not that famous, guys.
So stop doing it.
But you can find me out thereand I'll have a blue check mark
either on X, uh, Facebook orLinkedIn or um on Instagram.
But one of the biggest thingsthat I'm actually looking for
right now is a show sponsor.
So if you run a company and youfeel that we have an alignment,

(01:15:40):
reach out.
I would absolutely love to havea conversation.
Uh and as always, I'm your host,Josh McMillian, saying every day
is a gift.
Don't waste yourself I'll seeyou next time.

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#115: Ben Eden - From HR Executive to Purpose-Driven Coach

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The Bobby Bones Show

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#115: Ben Eden - From HR Executive to Purpose-Driven Coach