July 15, 2024 • 59 mins
Leanne Meyer is the author of Climbing the Spiral Staircase, a guide for women seeking to gain control of their professional paths. She directs Carnegie Mellon Women’s Executive Leadership Academy and is the former director of the university’s Accelerate Leadership Center. With more than thirty years of senior-level consulting and executive development experience, Leanne provides evidence-based methods to change business practices. Her work helps leaders navigate critical inflection points, refocus professional identities and develop new skills. She consults with Fortune 100 companies and holds a master’s degree in industrial psychology from the University of Johannesburg. She is passionate about helping leaders reinvigorate their lives through the reclamation of passion and purpose.
Connect with Leanne Meyer:
-Website: https://leannemeyer.com/
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-IG: https://www.instagram.com/leanne.m.meyer/
-Twitter: https://twitter.com/leanne_meyer
-LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leannemeyer/
-Book: https://leannemeyer.com/book/
🫡 My Why: I’ve seen the cost of poor leadership — how it can destroy morale, break trust, and in the worst cases, lead to lives lost, including through suicide. That’s why I’ve committed my life to helping others lead with purpose. Through Tales of Leadership, I share real stories and actionable insights on how to overcome adversity and become the kind of leader people remember for the right reasons.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to the Tells the Leadership podcast
.
This podcast is for leaders atany phase on their leadership
journey to become a morepurposeful and accountable
leader what I like to call a pal.
Join me on our journey togethertowards transformational
leadership.
Welcome back to Tells theLeadership podcast.
(00:22):
I am your host, Josh McMillian,the founder of McMillian
Leadership Coaching and anactive duty army officer with
over 16 years of leadershipexperience, and I'm on a mission
to create more purposeful andaccountable leaders, and my
vision is to positively affect 1million lives in the next 10
(00:43):
years by sharingtransformational skills and
stories.
On today's episode, I'm going tobe interviewing Leanne Myers.
She is the author of Climbingthe Spiral Staircase, a guide
for women seeking to gaincontrol of their professional
paths.
She directs the Carnegie MellonWomen's Executive Leadership
(01:03):
Academy and is the formerdirector for the University
Accelerate Leadership Center.
She has over 30 years of seniorlevel consulting and executive
development experience andprovides some amazing wisdom.
In this episode and, as always,stay to the end and I'm going
to give you the top threetakeaways that you should have
(01:24):
from Leanne.
Let's go ahead and bring her on.
Leanne, welcome to the Tales ofLeadership podcast.
It's always an honor and aprivilege to have people take
the time out of their day andtalk about my passion, which is
leadership.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I'm good, but I'm curious about you.
You have a long day, so for youto still have energy for these
conversations at nighttime isquite something.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, Well, I'll talk about a long day.
So I was at work since sixo'clock this morning and I
literally just got back fiveminutes before, which I kind of
felt bad.
You're waiting in the waitingroom for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
No, you've got a lot going on.
I'm impressed you're keepingthis all going.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, no, you've got a lot going on.
I'm impressed you're keepingthis all going.
Yeah Well, thank you.
With that, it's really'm bornin South Africa, so I think I'm.
I suppose I don't often think ofmyself as an immigrant, but my
kids remind me consistently thatI'm an immigrant.
So I come from South Africa and, like many people from South
(02:38):
Africa who've traveled toexplore work opportunities,
we've lived in Europe and sortof we got to America via Europe.
So I feel like I've had acircuitous path that I think for
many leaders and I'm sureprobably you've seen this in the
military like you makedecisions or you go to places
based on need and requirementsand family situation and job
(03:00):
opportunity, and so I sort offeel like I don't have a very
integrated story.
I mean, I know we're going totalk about the book, but I
called it the SpiralingStaircase because I feel I've
gone in a lot of circles buthopefully always towards a level
of consciousness.
So I'm from South Africa and Iknow your interest is in
(03:21):
leadership and for me, I thinkwhen I've, I feel like I stood
into leadership roles sort ofthroughout nursery school, high
school, those kinds ofexperiences, but I think when I
became very conscious ofleadership as a concept and as
an area of study was.
I studied industrial psychologyundergrad at college and there I
just, I think, much like you, Ijust found a love.
(03:43):
I love for this field and I lovefor an interest, and so my
interest was very much on whatdoes it take for people to feel
motivated and engaged and wantto thrive in places at work?
And it has so much to do withwho their leaders are.
And so that was where myinterest started.
And then it was only when I gotto the states that more and
more of my coaching clients andI know you have a number of
(04:06):
coaching clients more and moreof my coaching clients were
women, and I started seeing verysimilar patterns that I started
thinking, oh, there's somethingI really want to do in the
women's space.
And so it was only when I gotto the States that I immersed
myself more and more in womenexperiences and then got
involved in universities, andthat's kind of where I find
myself now.
I feel like I'm always bestwhen I kind of straddle industry
(04:29):
and academia.
Those two places work well forme as a place to work from.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Industrial psychology .
That is such an interestingdegree.
So my bachelor's degree is incriminal psychology.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, I know right, there's some similar.
I don't know if there'ssimilarities there or not, but
industrial psychology where didyou go to school at?
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So I went to school in South Africa and I think
what's to me is interestingthere's probably a lot of
similarities because I thinklargely it's the study of human
nature.
If you think and you knowyou're looking at when probably
human nature crosses legalboundaries and for me it was
(05:12):
human nature in places of work.
So industrial psychology, asopposed to clinical or other
parts of psychology, is reallylooking at how do people thrive
in workplaces?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I love that.
Yeah, so that was a lot ofcriminal psychology is what
motivates people behind likecriminal acts and then when they
do commit a criminal act, kindof identifying them to allow law
enforcement to define themrather quickly.
So I'd love to kind of hearfrom that study what was kind of
your thesis, what did you findthat motivates people?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
What was kind of your thesis?
What did you find thatmotivates people?
I think it was both acombination of what I studied
but living in South Africathrough the transformation of
the country, and I think what Iwas very clear of is that I
think you can motivate people ina short-term way by threats or
rewards or bribes or whatever itis that allows for a lot of, I
think, short-term way, by likethreats or rewards or bribes or
(06:04):
whatever it is that that allowsfor a lot of, I think,
short-term performance.
But I think if you want tosustain, in my world, like from
a career perspective, if youwant to sustain leadership
ambition over time, I think theonly way to motivate people is
to give them a vision ofthemselves or of the
organization of a team that theycan live into.
And so to me, ultimately, Ifeel that that's what motivates
(06:30):
and engage people is if peoplehave a vision of the future
that's compelling, they getmotivated now.
I find if you have no vision ofthe future, you don't wait to
the future to get demotivated.
You get demotivated now.
So for me, I feel what I workwith most probably with leaders
is how do they create compellingvisions and share them in ways
(06:53):
that inspire people to live intothose visions, and I think as a
coach, that's what I do as wellis help people sort of catch
sight of who they can be in thefuture.
And so, for me, I always feellike I work a lot with visions,
whether personal or corporate orunits, but I think that, to me,
is what motivates people.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, I think vision is.
It's really powerful in terms ofwhen I've commanded
organizations before and Ireally understood the power of
it when I took over my firstcompany Rifle Company Command.
Before that job I was anobserver, coach, trainer, so I
just got to see like 26different rotations and 26
(07:34):
different Joshes in the job thatI was getting ready to take and
I saw what worked and whatdidn't work and really what it
was.
And it kind of goes down to thedefinition of what I define
leadership, as is the ability toinspire.
And I think what you're sayingtoo in terms of a vision is that
if the vision of where you'rewanting to take someone inspires
(07:56):
them, then they're going to bebought into what you want to do,
but if it's like, eh, I don't,I don't get excited about that.
So I had a good friend of mineI'd love to hear what your
thoughts is on this.
Talk about head and heartalignment and when I heard that
it was like boom, it was like anepiphany.
(08:16):
Is that if you can see it butyou can also feel it emotion
create alignment between yourhead and your heart then your
hands will automatically want todo the work.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, no, I think you're rightand I think you know.
To me, the example of that,coming from South Africa, was
when Nelson Mandela came intopower.
That's what he did, if youthink.
He came into a country that wasunbelievably separated, very
bitter, after years of sort ofpolitical strife, and he created
a vision and he called it theRainbow Nation, and by calling
it the Rainbow Nation, he gaveall people, regardless of race,
(08:52):
a way to see themselves in thisfuture, and so he was remarkable
at doing that, and you're right.
If someone can describe it andyou can feel it in your heart,
then, yeah, it compels you towant to act and build something.
So, no, I think you're right,it's very powerful.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, so okay.
So you completed your degree.
When did you make your way toAmerica?
Is that where you started yourcoaching journey, or yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Well, yes, I only started coaching in America.
So what was interesting is we?
So I did both my undergrad andmy master's in industrial
psychology at the University ofJohannesburg, so I completed
that there.
But what was interesting and Iknow I think I'm correct, I
think you have kids, yeah,absolutely first, son, and South
(09:42):
Africa was finally liberated.
And we, you know, for a longtime you'd been almost
embarrassed, as a white SouthAfrican, to travel and we were
like, okay, we just want totravel.
And our goal was our son wasyoung and we were like we want
to travel and live on differentcontinents and get back to South
Africa so our eldest couldstart elementary school.
So we just headed out and wetook jobs wherever there were
(10:05):
opportunities and so we headed.
So I mean, we were, I wasmarried, my husband and I were
now probably I don't know wewere now late twenties.
We had one kid and we justthought we were just going to
live on each differentcontinents and find a job and
see what we did.
And so we lived just outsideLondon and we worked there, we
spent time in Europe, we livedin Ireland and we came to
(10:28):
America.
It was supposed to be aone-year gig.
So we came to America for aone-year gig so that we would be
back in South Africa for myeldest to start school and at
that point we'd had another kid.
So I have two sons and we'd gotpets and all the things that we
were traveling circus.
And when we got to the States Ijust I fell in love with where
(10:49):
we lived.
I just it's.
I know Pittsburgh gets a badrap in this country.
I think people see Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Are you from Pittsburgh?
Well, no, I'm a Steelers fan,so I grew up in like rural West
Virginia, so I was like threehours away from Pittsburgh.
I would go there all the time.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Beautiful city.
It's beautiful.
So we got here and I, just Ifell in love with the city and I
fell in love with theneighborhoods, and I had two
young sons.
And what I loved is I would goto work and I would get calls
from the neighbors going do youknow what your boys are doing
now?
You know, like it was just, itwas just very communal.
And it was just very communaland it was, and so I, just I
(11:27):
really wanted to spend some timebringing my kids up here.
So we, we chose to stay, stayhere, and that's we never left.
We're still here, our family'sstill in South Africa, so we
visit a lot.
So sorry so I'm, I'm getting abit sidetracked.
So we, we, we get to the statesand I had not done coaching
until we got to America and atthe time I was doing workshop
programming, but it was reallyinteresting.
I was working in financialservices, but during a boom time
(11:51):
there was a lot of money, andthe clients I was working with
were basically saying we likewhat you're doing in a workshop,
but can't you do it one-on-onewith us?
And so you know, coming from acountry like I came from, which
is a developing country, they'renot enormous resources.
So I was shocked that companieswould make money available for
(12:11):
a coach to work one-on-one withthe person where we would
literally like have workshopswith 60 or 70 people in.
So for me, I love coaching, Iknow it's highly effective, but
it feels like an enormous luxury, and so I feel countries like
America that make theseresources are available.
I feel like this is where Ilearned my skill sets, because I
(12:31):
don't know how many othercountries would have put this
amount of resource behinddeveloping leaders one-on-one.
So, yes, so that's a very longway, joshua, of saying my
coaching started in the States.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
You said something that is powerful Coaching is
luxury, and that's so true isthat I've never I guess I never
thought about that and youprobably think I'm crazy that I
do 100% free coaching formilitary.
So part of one of the DODpolicies they just released is
(13:05):
called the Army Coaching Program.
So they'll take a Army officeror non-commissioned officer that
have a certain level of tenureand they'll take them through an
ICF-accoded coaching programand then at the end of the day
you go back and you take acoaching hat into your
organization and you try tocultivate a coaching culture.
(13:28):
If I would have known and I'mtelling you, if I would have
known what I'd known when I wasa company commander, when I used
to lead like hundreds of menand women, I would have been a
phenomenal leader.
And it kind of kicks myself inthe butt is that I wish I would
have found a coach, because it's100% free resource if you're in
the military and you'relistening, you just could find
one.
It would have made me such abetter leader.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Oh, totally, I think I mean to me.
What's so interesting is I'mnot sure if you're aware of
Project Oxygen.
It was a project that was donewith Google, and there was a
time where Google felt therewere too many leaders and they
weren't sure you know what goodthey were doing, and so they got
rid of a lot of managementlevels.
(14:13):
But there was, as you canimagine, a lot of struggles
around coordination anddelegation and those things, so
they reintroduced leaders.
But what was great is theylooked very thoughtfully at what
are the behaviors that we knowreally make a difference for
leaders.
And, to your point, coachingskills was one of the main ones,
and so we know.
I think it is such a helpfulstyle for a leader to assume a
(14:37):
kind of coaching stance Because,to your point, you're highly
effective, it's a very inclusiveway of leading, it's a
thoughtful, empathic way ofleading, and so, no, I agree, I
think it is powerful and it'samazing to me if the military
makes that available to everyone.
That's wonderful.
And, to your point, if you wantto be a good leader, one of the
best ways is to learn reallygood coaching skills.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
I think that's one of the most beautiful things, that
it's never came up in any of mypodcast episodes yet is that
the common denominator thatmakes a great leader is their
ability to put on a coaching hat.
And I don't think a lot ofpeople understand what a coach
truly is, because when I firststarted, you have a mentor, you
(15:21):
can have a mentor, you can havea counselor, and then you can
kind of have a coach, and acoach is completely different.
So would would you mind maybeseparating and explaining what a
coach is?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
sure.
So how, I think, I suppose, how, how I, how I separate.
It's interesting.
You use coach and, and I thinkthat's great, because if you
think a coach is someone whosort of comes next to you and
talks with you and a mentor issomeone that you kind of talk up
to, or they talk to you and asponsor talks about you, you
(15:54):
know, like they sponsor yousomewhere.
So I think that's how it'sseparate there, but how I've
always separated it, cause in myworld I think people struggle
to separate what is a coach,what is a therapist and what is
a consultant.
And so if I think of thatcontinuum.
So if we think of therapy likeon one side of the continuum, so
therapy to me is about mentalhealth and well-being and it's
(16:18):
often looking to your past tomake you successful now.
So that to me is how I kind ofthink of therapy.
And then I think on the otherside.
I think of consulting.
We're consulting in workplaces.
If you bring consultants in,they come in to tell you what to
do, like they are the experts,they're the solution providers.
They come in and tell you whatto do, where coaching to me kind
(16:40):
of falls a bit in the middleand some may agree with me that
they may think it should fallmore in the therapy side.
To me, or what's worked for meas a coach is I'm coming
alongside someone, I'm helpingthem find solutions that are
successful for them.
But I do find I am a littleinstructive and I know that's
(17:01):
not fully coaching.
But I find a lot of my clientsare very impatient, they're very
driven and they kind of arelike what, if I've got to sit
and figure this all out myself,I don't need a coach to help me.
So I think that that's a coach.
I mean, almost everyone in thiscountry has played sports at
some time, whether it was sortof YSUCK or someone.
(17:24):
So a coach was someone wholooked at you, saw your talents,
guided you, helped you fit in,gave you feedback, listened to
your concerns, helped you figureout solutions.
That's how I think of coaching.
But in the practice of mycoaching I feel sometimes I slip
into instruction just because Ithink my clients value it and I
(17:44):
feel like we're so crunched fortime.
But that's sort of, I suppose,how in my mind I always go
there's a therapist, there's acoach and there's a consultant
is how I would think of it.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, I love that and I think sometimes too, that's a
beautiful way of describing it.
And so coaching is it pullsfrom your past I wrote this down
and it charts a course for yourfuture.
So I think it's kind of theblend of all of those a
therapist, a consultant and acoach.
And when I've had a coupleclients, I think you have to
understand when to be a littlebit more assertive.
(18:15):
Some people need hey, here'sthe plan, execute it.
And even some of the clientsthat I've had because I've been
in the military and I am in themilitary is that they want that
rigid structure sometimes, whichis interesting.
But I think every person isdifferent.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, and if I can just interrupt, what to me is so
interesting is I ran aleadership center at our
university for many years and wehad a lot of vets come in, so
lots of veterans coming throughour leadership center, and what
to me was always so interesting,joshua, was how many of them
had so much experience inleadership you know because by
(18:55):
like, just listening to you talk, but at a very young age you
were leading platoons, like.
so if you think of like, youknow the average age of an MBA
student is about 27.
So if you think how many other27 year olds have had
(19:28):
significant leaders and how widetheir leadership experience has
been, from very young ages.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
That is a critical point.
And that's beautiful too isthat when I was 23, I had my
first platoon that I took overin Afghanistan, and that was 44
soldiers.
And then, when I was 27, I hadmy first company command of 130
soldiers and millions of dollarsof equipment.
And then, when I was 32, I hadmy second company command, or,
(19:55):
sorry, 29.
I had my second company commandof 250.
So I've never thought of it inthat lens, is that the
leadership experience that I'vehad outweighs my age?
I, if that makes sense- I thinkit does.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I, I, you know, I think myself and all our
colleagues were always blownaway at the sophistication and
the nuance and the understandingof what it is to lead at very
young ages.
So we would get all thestudents in and our goal was to
develop them as leaders duringthe MBA time with us, and so
many of the vets were just at avery different place when it
(20:34):
came to leadership because oftheir experience.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
What were some of the common?
Because that's really one of mybig passions, that I'm looking
at doing is trying to promotetransformational leadership
practices and skills, becausewhat I've seen is that there's
two paths that leaders can takeat a fundamental like, at that
molding point in their career.
They can either view people asan asset, if that makes sense,
(20:58):
plant and let them grow, letthem mature, and then when they
harvest right, it's not just awin, it's continuing able to win
.
Or they can view them as atransitional stepping stone is
that you may work for me, butI'm going to use you to get to
the next position, and I've seenit both in the military and the
civilian force, where I go intoacquisition, and with the
(21:21):
civilian side.
What were some of the commonthemes with those individuals
that were applying for the MBAprogram?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
So with the vets who were coming through or with the
civilians who are coming through?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
If you have the time, I'd love to hear both.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Okay, no, you know, I think what to me was
interesting with the vets comingthrough is, I think, as you
were commenting now, I thinkthey often didn't realize how
much experience they had.
I think they see civilian lifeas so different to military life
that they don't understand thedepth of their military
experience as leaders, just asstraight up leaders.
(21:56):
So I think they often discounthow much leadership experience
they have and how much theyunderstand human nature.
So, I think that's what vetsdidn't understand.
They could have felt far moreconfident in the leadership
skills they brought.
I do think the challenge was ina civilian environment is so in
a military environment you canlead, and not that people will
(22:20):
choose to do this, but you canlead by command and control.
There is a line of authority.
There's a line of command.
And so it's pretty helpful andpretty straightforward because
that is all specified upfrontand people know how to act
within those norms, and so Ifeel the biggest challenge many
of the vets had was going intocivilian leadership roles was
(22:42):
understanding how often you haveto have influence with no
authority.
So you know how do you walkaround things, how do you help
people go in.
You can't be directive.
Command and control is notaccepted in many environments.
So I think that was the biggestchallenge was this idea that
there is no line of command andeven if there is, people expect
(23:03):
you to show up in a far moreinclusive fashion.
So I felt that was thechallenge, I think, for many of
our vets coming through and thenI think for our other students.
So again, if you think of theage, the average age is 27.
And the people who are comingthrough our program were just
smart, like really bright people.
And I think, for many studentswho are moving into leadership
(23:26):
roles, it's hard to understandthat it doesn't matter that
you're the smartest person inthe room.
So like you may, be the smartestperson in the room, but if
you're not emotionallyintelligent and you don't know
how to read the room and youdon't know how to take people
with you, you're going to not bevery effective.
And so I think there's thischallenge of if something is
(23:47):
logical and we know it to beright and I'm smart like how can
it not make sense, how can wenot move in a certain direction?
So I think for those studentsit was more like do I really
have to listen to someone whomaybe I don't respect as much
intellectually, or I've got toplay politics, or I've got to
listen to all these things?
So I think for both of them,influence was the big problem,
(24:11):
but coming from very differentplaces.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, I love that.
So the military influence withno authority.
And, to be 100% honest, I kindof ran through that struggle a
couple years ago when I wentinto acquisitions so dealing is
cost schedule, performance,managing a program, working with
civilian DOD still active dutymilitary but how do I motivate
(24:38):
people that I do not have directauthority over or influence
over, that have wildly amazingeducation backgrounds I'm
talking like from Stanford andYale and Harvard, like deep
engineering degrees, have adepth of experience that blows
me away, like retired colonels.
(24:58):
And here's this happy majorcoming into a room trying to get
them on a vision, trying to bea shepherd to take them to the
journey.
And what I really found out andI'd love to hear it dawned on
me finally is it's all aboutrelationships.
If you can build authenticrelationships, then it does two
things it cultivates trust and Ithink trust happens in two
(25:20):
forms that I've learned in themilitary through either like
crucible events, like being outin an operational experience
with someone, or a toughenvironment, or frequency.
And if you're with someone longenough, you start to develop
trust because you know who thatperson is.
And then, when you build thattrust, then you start earning
respect and then people justhave this reputation.
(25:41):
It's like, okay, josh may beyoung, but he genuinely cares
about us and his word is gold.
And once you have thatreputation, then you build that
relationship.
Then I think you're unstoppable.
It's like a tire with tractionyou can just keep going.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I think it's exactly that.
I think you're right.
I think it is it'srelationships, it's building
trust, and I think this probablysounds a little Machiavellian,
but in the situation you weredescribing, it also had to do
with probably give and take.
You had something they needed,they had something they knew.
So people are probably alsoaware of the power at play in
terms of who needed what and how, and if you understand that,
(26:21):
you can also work effectively.
I think.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, and that was another beautiful thing and you
kind of hinted to it as well isthat you have to understand what
your strengths are.
Kind of going into a team andit took me a really long time to
to discover what my strengthswere.
But how do I employ thosestrengths?
Right, because people on myteam have wildly different
strengths and if I can't figureout what my dead space is,
(26:47):
meaning that, okay, I have my, Ihave my focus area of where my
strengths are and where I'm goodat, but if I go out to the left
or right, that's my dead space.
I'm not good in that area, butthere's people on my team whose
strengths cover my dead spaceand if we can do that, then we
become a better organization.
And how can I leverage theirstrengths to the best possible
(27:07):
ability to cover my strengths?
At the end of the day, justwinning as an organization.
The other thing that I love thatyou talked about is people who
I think don't have that depth ofleadership experience, focus
and rely on their education Like, oh well, this is what the book
(27:27):
said.
So I have to go to it and I'veidentified like one of the
practices that leaders have tobreak when they first start and
not go down that transitionalpath is by the book.
So if you go by the book as aleader, you start to fall into
pitfalls, because this may soundcrazy, I guess, to some people,
but I think part of being aleader is learning how to live
(27:51):
with risk and mitigating risk,operating in that gray and then
if you rely on your educationand what the book told you to do
there is never going to be aperfect answer.
That is a book.
It's just not going to happen.
And if it does, then it'sprobably not a real scenario.
It's probably a trainingexercise.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
No, and to that point , what was interesting, what we
actually did as well at theuniversity is we would run what
we would call failure labs.
Because, to your point, whenyou sort of are well-educated
and you're bright, you're reallynot used to making mistakes, so
you don't like making mistakes.
But if you look at successfulentrepreneurs or successful
leaders, what they're able to dois make a mistake, learn from
(28:34):
it really quickly and redirect,and so, to your point, there
will be no progress if we're nottaking some risk, if we're not
trying something new, becausethen we to me, then we're just
offering imitation.
If we're just meetingrequirements of what we've been
told or what the situationdemands, that's not leadership,
that's You're just a competentworker bee doing your thing.
(28:55):
That's not leading.
So if we're looking fortransformation or innovation or
any of the things we knoworganizations are desperate for,
it takes risk.
But the minute you move intorisky behavior you're going to
make mistakes and most people, Ithink, who are really good, who
are perfectionists, are soscared of making mistakes that
they don't take risk.
But that keeps them in thesekind of middle management,
(29:17):
worker bee type positions, whichwe appreciate them for because
they're doing tasks beautifully,but there's none of the
transformation you're talkingabout.
So I know, I think it's vitalto to learn to just make
mistakes, learn from them.
I mean thoughtful, not makethem, you know, not just because
you want to make a mistake, butif you make a mistake, it's how
quickly do you recover?
(29:37):
That's, I think, is veryimportant as a leader.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
There's a thing that we do in the military and it's
so simple.
Most of everything I do in mylife, I follow the KISS rule, so
keep it simple.
Stupid, yeah, but it's an afteraction review, so an AAR.
So what were we supposed to do?
What did we do?
How can we improve and then gotake action again and just do it
, and it's just a loop.
And to kind of give you a realworld example of what I'm
(30:02):
struggling with with my teamright now so I manage a small
drone that we filled out to thearmy and we're in the process of
doing a second iteration andwe're in this rapid prototyping
and it's it's really hard forthe team to conceptualize.
With this alpha demonstrationthat we're doing.
Birds are going to crash intotrees, like the drones are going
(30:24):
to crash into trees.
They're going to fall out ofthe sky because the hardware is
not locked, the software is notlocked.
And but what we're going tolearn from this event?
The vendors are going to takeit on to betas and they're going
to improve, and then that forbetas it's probably going to
happen again, maybe not as bad,but then at the next test event
it's going to be even better.
And and the vision is thatwe're going to be able to field
(30:44):
a disruptive small UAStechnology that soldiers can use
, that'll fit in their rucksackand is going to save lives and
it took me a while to kind offigure that, but that was
beautifully said is that failureis incremental and I don't
think we ever truly fail as longas we keep trying.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
But what I love is what you shared in that example
is such a strong vision thatyou're obviously sharing with
your team.
This is what we're going todevelop the small drone that can
fit in the backpack and savelives.
So I'm all in, like already,I'm like oh, there's a vision
that's inspiring, so I'm goingto work it.
And then you've got to createthe environment as you're
describing.
How do we make a mistake andlearn from it?
Like, if we're so careful withthese drones and we're too
(31:24):
scared to let them fly and tooscared to let them bump into
trees, then we're not going todevelop the technology.
We need to take the risk.
And how do we learn?
And I love it.
It's interesting you talk andthis is more just a sidebar when
you were talking about an afteraction review.
Yeah, what to me is interestingI'm working with a corporate
team at the moment, so acivilian team.
But what I love is, you know, Ithink all leaders struggle so
(31:48):
much with difficultconversations.
They're hard to have, but ifthey use the format that you've
just shared, after actionreviews just become wonderful
ways to have difficultconversations.
So it's not about, you know,sort of shouting at someone,
it's not about tripping someoneup, it's not about pointing out
errors, it's but as a mechanismfor just great team learning and
, without realizing it, peopleare having a difficult
(32:20):
conversation.
So it's perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
That's another beautiful thing that you brought
up too is like radical candor.
I don't know if you've everread the book by Kim Scott, yeah
.
So how can you be respectfulwith someone, someone, but
challenge them directly?
And that's the science of it.
And the military, I think, doesa beautiful job.
I remember when I first started, my boss was going to tell me,
(32:43):
josh, you have to have thickskin, but at the end of the day,
it's not having people call youout, but it's people
identifying faults.
And you may have been the issue, but at the end of the day, if
I succeed, the team succeeds.
And on my shirt, the back ofthis slogan that I have, it has
team of teams.
(33:04):
That was our company motto isthat if you're successful, the
team's successful, and it's notabout us, it's about the legacy
of our organization.
So when I was a companycommander, if our battalion is
doing well, we are doing well,and if we are doing well, then
at the individual soldier,they're doing well and that's
beautiful.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I love that and I just feel in corporate
environments I feel there's verylittle radical candor.
I think we know there are a fewexamples of companies that use
that model, but not many, and Ioften think that's why people
appreciate coaching so much.
Often I feel with my clientswhat they love more than
anything is they're actuallygetting 360 feedback, because no
(33:45):
one's giving them the straightanswer, no one's telling them
what's really going on, and sowith coaching it's a more
structured process so you canget 360.
But really I feel all that myclients are finally getting
radical, candid feedback, youknow, and it's the only way, I
think, to change performance,because otherwise it's ambiguous
feedback and no one knows whereto go and what to do and what's
(34:06):
important.
And so I know I love the candorof a coaching process and
specifically when people get 360degree feedback, because it
just helps people understandwhere they are for the first
time normally in their careers.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
All right, team, let's take a quick break from
this podcast and I want topersonally invite you to our
private Facebook community thatI call Purposeful Accountable
Leaders, or PALS, and PALS is acommunity dedicated to inspiring
and developing servant leadersby sharing transformational
stories and skills Exactly whattells the leadership is all
about.
My goal is to build a communityof like-minded leaders that can
(34:44):
share lessons, learn, askquestions and celebrate wins
when it happens.
And my mission in life is clearI will end toxic leadership by
sharing transformational storiesand skills, and you will find
countless transformationalleaders in this group, many of
them I have had the honor toserve with in the military.
If you want to find a communitythat can help you grow both
(35:06):
personally and professionally,we would love to have you.
You can simply searchPurposeful Accountable Leaders
on Facebook or click theLeadership Resources tab in the
show notes to join.
I am looking forward to seeingyou guys and continuing to grow
together on our leadershipjourney.
Back to the podcast, so I wouldlove to kind of transition over
(35:27):
to your book, I think Climbingthe Spiral Staircase, and kind
of walk me up to like write thatright before the moment that
you decided to write a book,because I love to journal and
I've already felt like five orsix notebooks, but I can still
never visualize me ever writinga book, because it seems like
such a daunting task.
What motivated you to write it?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
I think to me again it's that resource question is
that you know, at a university,in a business school that's
beautifully resourced and welook after a very small number
of students with all theseresources, especially for women,
(36:16):
during the pandemic how manywomen were choosing to opt out
or downshift or downgrade theircareers?
It was getting alarming becausethe numbers were.
You know, the projections werethat we're going to go back to
kind of 20 years because womenhave just changed and rethought
ambition.
And so my idea with the bookwas how do I take all the
learning that we're makingavailable to very few women and
sort of distribute it in thequickest way?
(36:38):
And a book was that way.
I think a book is the fastestway to get a lot of people the
same information that are notgoing to potentially have access
to a business school or want tostudy an MBA, and so you know,
it was a way of kind ofdemocratizing that knowledge.
I think is how I think of thebook.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Wow.
So, without giving the bookaway, what would be a couple
tips that you can share?
Speaker 2 (37:04):
I think so.
The book is focused on women,but if you have daughters or you
lead women on your team, Iwould encourage you to read it.
So what the book does is youknow, I think for many of us and
I don't know if you feel thatway you know you sort of go to
2022 in America.
Why are we still talking aboutwomen's issues, like, surely
we've dealt with all of this?
(37:25):
And so what the book does?
It really just shares in a veryevidence-based way what the
real biases are at work, like,what are these unconscious
biases?
How do they play out?
But, more importantly, my bigworry is everyone loves admiring
the problem, but no one givesstrategies to fix it.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
So what I do is Call it out, but don't fix it.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah.
So I kind of map the biasesthat women will bump into in
workplaces, things like doublebind, how they get feedback,
what happens in meetings, sovery tactical experiences of
when you're a young womanstarting work.
Because really, if you look atwhat happens with women, if you
measure their confidence,ambition when they start and two
(38:08):
years into their career, it'salarming how quickly women's
confidence and ambition plummetsbecause of ambiguous workplaces
.
So workplaces where feedback isgiven differently to women,
performance management looksdifferent, double like they're
just dealing with a host ofchallenges that men are not
dealing with, and so my bookkind of lays out what those
(38:29):
challenges are, but thenstrategies for how to mitigate,
how to be successful in a worldthat's a little complicated
around gender, and so I supposein a nutshell, that's the book.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
You're going to love my background because I think
I'm going to be a case study.
So, as an infantry officer,when I first started it was only
male combat arms and you know,in between going through uh,
infantry, spending my time, theyfinally opened it up into, um,
women being able to join and I'mtelling you like that stressed
(39:03):
me out so much because not froma standpoint of not ever serving
under a woman or leading awoman, but how do I communicate?
Because I've always been aroundmales and if I had that book?
Because so now, for example,like my colonel for PMUAS and 06
level is a female, she is aphenomenal leader and my 05
(39:24):
civilian leader I won't say hername, she is a phenomenal leader
and there's so many people onmy team that work with me that
are above me that are female andit kind of broke that whole
mindset is that.
But I, but I had to be put intothat environment.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
I love that no, because I think to me what's sad
.
I sort of feel like I thank youfor being so honest, because I
think that's the challenge.
If you've always been in a maleenvironment and you've led
teams of men, it is going to bea little alarming if, oh, okay,
now they're going to be women inthe mix, and so I think it is
important to go okay.
So what are going to be thechallenges?
Is it going to be different?
(40:00):
What are the differences?
What are the differences thatare important?
What are differences that areunimportant?
And then, how do I manage them?
And as much as you would do asa leader with personalities, I
always find it amazing.
People want to tell me they're.
Myers-Briggs, or they want totell me this assessment or that
assessment.
But you mentioned gender andeveryone gets all like, oh no, I
don't want to talk about genderwhere it's just another lens,
(40:23):
the fact like when I'm lookingat you, I can see that you're
presenting as a man, and sothey're going to be certain
unconscious biases at play.
So let's understand them and sothat I can be a better
inclusive leader.
And so I'm always surprised athow we sort of don't want to
talk about gender when it's just, it's real.
And if we spend all our timetrying to understand human
(40:43):
nature, we need to understandthe world with a gender lens as
well, because it's how we'rejudging people.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
So I think that that is so beautiful and I'm kind of
like I'm trying to figure outhow to break that right now in
my mind.
So Indiograms is something thatI really really want to dig
into because I think that thatkeeping it simple stupid you
know there's nine basic profiletypes is that you can categorize
anyone in, but like leading awoman versus leading a man, if I
(41:10):
can categorize you quickly inone of these nine categories, at
the end of the day, what makesa leader successful is their
ability to collaborate and tocommunicate.
If I can collaborate with youand I can communicate with you
because I know what your profiletype is, then I can lead you
and that is the most importantthing and it starts building
that trust, building thatrespect that we talked about.
(41:32):
Have you had any experiencewith the Enneagrams?
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Yeah, I have had.
Sorry, I want to get to theEnneagram now, but I think
sometimes, just to go back toyour question about gender and
working with gender, I thinkwhat's also helpful as a leader
is also to know okay, I spend somany hours in a day in meetings
If we know in meetings whotalks more, who's interrupted
more, whose ideas areappropriated, and if there is a
(41:59):
gender bias to this and we knowthere is, there's a lot of
evidence around that then as aleader now I can run my meetings
differently.
Or if I'm going to be looking atresumes and if I know if I look
at a blind resume I'm morelikely to pick someone than if I
see a woman's name and she's ina PTA, then I should use blind
resumes.
And so that's what I think isimportant as a leader when it
(42:21):
comes to gender is I thinksometimes it's so hard to
de-bias ourselves, but we cancertainly de-bias all the
processes we work with and justrun really good best practices.
So what's best practice arounda meeting, best practice around
a performance management, bestpractice around selection?
I think that's great forleaders to think about as well.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
So you have one thing that I really want to share
that the Army is doing that Ilove.
Is that so in our professionalresumes it's called ORB, so an
officer readiness or an ORB Ican't even think of the word
right now.
Anyway, I'll look up theacronym, I can't think of it but
they take off your pictures.
(43:02):
So it's just what you've done,what your degrees are, where
you're from.
But they take off your picturesand before I'm the
stereotypical infantry officer,right, like I'm tall, I'm skinny
, I can run really fast, I got ajawline Before.
I would be treated differently,I would you know, and that's
(43:27):
just the nature of it.
Have one bad seed that kind ofhas those perceptions and
continues to lead with thoseperceptions, the amount of
people that they can ruinthroughout their career is just
absolutely mind-boggling.
I've seen great men and womenget out of the military for just
one bad leader, just one badleader, and I can probably count
(43:49):
more good leaders than I've hadbad leaders, but what always
pops in my mind are the worstleaders that I've ever had,
because they're so powerful.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yeah, no, huge, hugely powerful.
So no, I agree, I think I'mexcited to hear, I just think
there's so many elegant, quickbest practices we can use, like
just take photographs of thatchange the world for so many
people.
So, no, thank you for sharingthat example.
As for the Enneagram, so to meit's really interesting.
I've used the Enneagram morefrom a spiritual practice
(44:20):
perspective and so my exposureto the Enneagram has largely
come through spiritual teachersbecause, as you know, we have
our dark side and our strength,and so it was interesting to me
when you were talking aboutStrengthsFinder earlier, because
if you see the Enneagram askind of a mode for spiritual
(44:41):
development, it becomes a placeto think through.
You know, what are the parts ofme that need to be resolved?
Because they're dark parts inthe Enneagram as well as light.
So, no, I think it's lovely.
The closest I've seen, I've seenprobably two commercial
organizations take the versionsof the Enneagram and use it, I
(45:05):
think, highly effectively asassessments, which is you
probably talking about, andwhere I find and I'm curious how
you want to use it, how I foundit most helpful from a coaching
practice.
It helps me understand, likecore motivation, because, to the
point that you were talkingabout is that you can.
For example, I was gathering360 feedback for a client this
(45:29):
morning who I'm coaching and alot of people keep saying which
is really interesting they keepsaying he doesn't.
It's clear to them he doesn'thave passion for his role, like
they're looking for engagementpassion.
But what to me is clear inEnneagram language in many ways
it's not.
His role is not at a very deeplevel, meeting his core
(45:51):
motivation, like the thingthat's going to drive him and
power him, and I think that, tome, is where Enneagram is
helpful.
It helps you, I think, reallychoose right role, like you know
, are people in the right role?
Is your team deployed with theright role?
Are they using the strengthsthat you were talking about?
So I think yeah.
I'm curious, like, how wouldyou be thinking of using the
Enneagram?
Speaker 1 (46:11):
I see some similarities between those exact
same things and I'm gettingready to start, because I'm an
avid reader and the next bookthat I'm going to be reading is
the Way Back to you, kind ofwalking through the Enneagram
and really digging into that.
But the way I guess I kind ofsee is exactly what you just
said is what motivates you andhow do you absorb information
(46:33):
and how do you communicate thatinformation?
Because I think that's thefirst fundamental level of
leading someone is how you canabsorb information, how you give
information.
And then what is youroverarching motivator?
Do you want to do a really goodwork in your job or do you want
to chase significance versussuccess?
And then, if I know that, thenI can discover what your
(46:58):
individual strengths are andthen I can put you in the
perfect role to just absolutelysucceed.
And to me, the secret of lifefor fulfillment because I'm just
an acronym wizard, so I call itthe three Ps is you have to
have perspective, you have tohave passion and you have to
have a purpose.
And when you connect thosethree together, I think that's
(47:19):
what gives fulfillment.
And at the end of the day, whatgreat leaders do is they give a
sense of fulfillment to peopleon their team because they're
able to connect those things.
And I know there's a way to dothat and I'm still, I guess, the
Tunkman model.
I'm still kind of formingthrough that in my brain.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yeah, oh no, I think you're going to like the
Enneagram work then a lot.
I think it's fascinating,there's so much there.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
I think it's with our psychology backgrounds that I
love reading psychology-basedbooks.
They're so fascinating.
One of my favorite books toread is Influence.
Have you ever read that one?
Yeah, yeah, I love that book.
Okay, so kind of on yourleadership journey right now
where do you want to be in fiveto 10 years and what do you want
(48:07):
to impact?
Speaker 2 (48:12):
in five to 10 years and what do you want to impact?
So I think my work, the twomain focuses of my work, is I
want to help women thrive incareers Like to me.
I think it's sad.
I think, because of how wesocialized and because of the
things women bump up at inworkplaces, they often feel
they're deficient and they don'tcatch sight of, kind of all the
beauty they can bring to theplaces they work.
So I would want to help womenunderstand you're not deficient,
(48:34):
there's some things you'rebumping up against and let's
work around them.
I can help you navigate that.
So I think I would want I mean,a big interest of mine is
helping women achieve that andthen, from a leadership
perspective, regardless ofgender, achieve that and then,
from a leadership perspective,regardless of gender, I think I
really want people to understandwhat are the evidence-based
strategies that create inclusiveenvironments.
(48:55):
I think a lot of people liketalking inclusion.
You know, I think we thinkcertain things are inclusive or
not, but there's, I think, somewonderful social science
research that's going on now.
That's really oh sorry.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
I just saw your kid.
Oh, I love it.
So that's a beautiful thing.
So I have a five-year-old and Ihave a nine-year-old, and
that's why I love like filmingat home is that I think part of
being a leader is beingauthentic and kind of accepting
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
So, yeah, my son's a wild man and he's going to
unlock my door and just come inevery once in a while.
I know I love it, it was lovelyseeing him.
So, josh, to go back, so Ithink there's the women's side,
and then there's the other side,and so those are the two things
I would want to work on, sothat's my main focus, for sure.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Yeah, the little man's distracted you with his
cuteness.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
No, he's so cute.
I just remember that age and Iremember my kids and I'm like,
oh, and he's like, and he'scharming, he's like it's just no
, it's lovely.
Yeah, it was lovely to bedistracted by him.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
No, well, that's awesome.
So the last kind of questionbefore we get to the final show
segment is I would love to hearyou know throughout your
leadership journey I call ityour house of leadership, but
it's essentially like yourleadership philosophy how you
lead people.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
How has your leadership philosophy kind of
changed over the years ormatured?
I felt that people with anexternal locus of control just
needed to whip themselves intoshape and develop an internal
locus of control.
So, I'm a big, you know, pullyourself up.
That's how I was brought up.
Pull yourself up by yourbootstraps.
You're not a victim.
(50:40):
You can take on everything youfind by yourself.
So I think when I'd initiallycome at leadership and initially
my work was all about, stopbeing a victim, like you know,
pick yourself up by yourbootstraps.
But then I think the more, theolder I've got, probably, and
the more to the point thatyou're saying, I think, the more
(51:01):
toxic work environments I'veseen, the more complicated
bosses I've seen, the more sortof clear ways that sort of
systems can discriminate againstpeople.
That shifted for me, becauseyou can keep trying to show up
in a specific way and takeresponsibility for your life and
be all that you want to be, butyou can really be hurt and
(51:23):
manipulated and shaped by thingsin your environment that often
you're not even aware of.
So I suppose what's changed forme over time I'd probably be a
bit more gentle on people now isI think I was just hard as,
like you know, come right back,you know, put up your big girl
pants, let's go when now.
I think I would.
(51:43):
Being a leader is hard work.
I think working is tough and Ithink I would extend more grace
and understand that at differentstages people are just going to
show up as better leaders.
But it's complicated, it's noteasy being a leader.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Yeah, I think that your leadership, your house of
leadership, foundation of mineare almost the same.
So I call it HUGS.
I'm an acronym wizard.
So humility, understanding,gratitude and having a servant
heart, and I think if you can dothat, then you're going to be a
great leader.
That's awesome.
It's time for our final showsegment that I like to call the
(52:21):
killer bees.
These are the same fourquestions that I ask every guest
on the Tales of Leadershippodcast Be brief, be brilliant,
be present and be gone.
Question one what do youbelieve separates an ordinary
leader from an extraordinaryleader?
Speaker 2 (52:40):
Realizing that leadership is not about them,
but about the people who arefollowing them.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
I love it All right.
Question two is what is oneresource that you could
recommend to our listeners?
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Marshall Goldsmith's book what Got you here Won't Get
you there An oldie but I thinkjust very behavioral with good
tips.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
I love that, and if I wrote a book I would have
totally just threw out my bookwith that question.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Oh, okay, sorry.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
My book Climbing the Spiral Staircase.
No, I'm truly inspired and I amexcited to read your book,
especially for my professionaldevelopment.
All right, so third questionI'm going to get sidetracked, I
can't help it.
The opportunity if you could goback in time and give your
younger self a piece of advice,what would it be?
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Oh, that's so hard.
Focus more on my career.
I sort of feel as a woman.
I spent a lot of time makingdecisions based on family
relationships, which is good.
My kids have thrived, I thinkmy husband is a happy person.
But I feel like you knoweveryone always goes, oh, enjoy
life more, and I was like, no, Icould have, I could have been
(53:44):
more intentional about my careerearly on.
I was.
I would give up things veryeasily to try and support a
family.
I think I would be moreintentional about my career.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
Wow.
So last question is how can ourlisteners find you and how can
they add value to you?
Speaker 2 (54:01):
So they could go to my website, which is
leanemeyercomL-E-A-N-E-M-E-Y-E-Rcom
leanemeyercomL-E-A-N-E-M-E-Y-E-Rcom
leanemeyercom, so they can findme there and I have my blogs and
articles and things, or theycould find me on LinkedIn and
how they could help.
I would love if people boughtthe book and told me what they
think.
I look forward to hearing whatyou think.
(54:22):
Joshua, you know I think what'sbeen interesting in writing a
book.
What I'd never thought about ishow different people experience
it differently, and so to me, Iwould love to hear how people
what resonates it, because it'sinteresting hearing what helps
people at different times, whichimproves my coaching practice
and improves what I can put backinto the world again, whether
(54:45):
it's in the written form oranything else.
So I would appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Yeah, thank you so much for filming this with me.
This has been one of myfavorite episodes and I needed
it today because it's been along day.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
Thank you so much.
Thank you, it was lovelychatting and enjoy yourself, and
I'm jealous that they're solittle.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yeah, have a great night.
All right, team, it's time forour after action review.
Here are the top threetakeaways you should have from
Leanne.
So first is influence with noauthority.
She was walking through herexecutive MBA program that there
are two different types ofpeople that came on board.
(55:26):
One of them were militaryofficers, military
non-commissioned officers,military soldiers.
That got out and the level ofinfluence that they had that was
significantly dropped when yougo into the civilian side.
So you had to quickly learn howto gain influence when you have
(55:47):
no authority and we kind of duginto that a little bit deeper
is that at the end of the day,you're going to have to learn
how to motivate people orinspire people, and it comes
down to your ability to buildrelationships when you're in the
military and if you'relistening to this, if you're
transitioning, you cannot usethose same leadership practices
(56:09):
that has made you successful inthe army or the air force, the
Navy, marine, coast Guard,whatever have you.
You're going to have to learn adifferent way of doing it and
you're going to have to learn toconnect authentically and have
relationships.
The second key takeaway that sheshared during that same
encounter because both of themjust stuck with me is that you
(56:30):
are not the smartest person inthe room and people who just
start their leadership journeysif they have no true experience
built up yet.
They rely on their education,not their experience.
Versus, if you're in themilitary and you get out, you
rely on your experience, notyour education.
But as a leader, you have tohave a certain level of humility
(56:54):
, understanding that you are notthe smartest person in the room
or on your team.
And if you think you are andI've shared this before in
several other episodes is thatyou're not a leader.
You should not be in aleadership position.
If you believe you're thesmartest person on your team and
I'll go back into the metaphoris that you are a lake.
You are a metaphorical lakethat is a mile wide and a foot
(57:16):
deep.
You understand all the tools atyour disposal and how to
maneuver those tools, but yourteam are whales.
They're a mile deep and a footwide.
They're the ones who do thework.
They're the ones that have thedetailed information and skills
to help.
Your job is to be a shepherd.
Your job is to provide a visionfor your team and get them to
(57:38):
that desired end state.
The last takeaway came right atthe tail end of this, where she
started sharing her spark on whyshe wrote the book and talking
about having lens.
A lens of leadership is that weall view leadership through our
biases our biases of where wecame from, culturally, how we
(58:01):
were raised, the leadershippractices that we learned when
we just started out.
But what makes atransformational leader, I think
, a true, purposeful,accountable leader pal that I
like to call is their ability tocall out those biases.
You have to realize when youare being biased, because to be
(58:23):
a true transformational leader,you have to have true diverse
teams.
And I've been on teams thathaven't been diverse and I've
been on teams that have beendiverse and I'm telling you,
when you have a team that isdiverse, the level of ingenuity
and creativity and motivationthat is there far outshines any
(58:44):
other team, because you aregetting some of the best
positive ideas that you can havewhen you have a diverse team,
versus having everyone whothinks exactly the same.
So when you're a leader andyou're in a leadership role,
understand that you're viewingthings through your lens and be
able to call it out.
If you've gotten any value fromtoday's episode, do me a favor
(59:07):
Leave a comment, leave a review,but, more importantly, share
this podcast with someone thatis just starting out on their
leadership journey.
I'm your host, josh McMillian,saying every day is a gift.
Don't waste yours.
I'll see you next time you.
You're listening to the Tells the Leadership podcast
.
This podcast is for leaders atany phase on their leadership
journey to become a morepurposeful and accountable
leader what I like to call a pal.
Join me on our journey togethertowards transformational
leadership.
Welcome back to Tells theLeadership podcast.
(00:22):
I am your host, Josh McMillian,the founder of McMillian
Leadership Coaching and anactive duty army officer with
over 16 years of leadershipexperience, and I'm on a mission
to create more purposeful andaccountable leaders, and my
vision is to positively affect 1million lives in the next 10
(00:43):
years by sharingtransformational skills and
stories.
On today's episode, I'm going tobe interviewing Leanne Myers.
She is the author of Climbingthe Spiral Staircase, a guide
for women seeking to gaincontrol of their professional
paths.
She directs the Carnegie MellonWomen's Executive Leadership
(01:03):
Academy and is the formerdirector for the University
Accelerate Leadership Center.
She has over 30 years of seniorlevel consulting and executive
development experience andprovides some amazing wisdom.
In this episode and, as always,stay to the end and I'm going
to give you the top threetakeaways that you should have
(01:24):
from Leanne.
Let's go ahead and bring her on.
Leanne, welcome to the Tales ofLeadership podcast.
It's always an honor and aprivilege to have people take
the time out of their day andtalk about my passion, which is
leadership.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I'm good, but I'm curious about you.
You have a long day, so for youto still have energy for these
conversations at nighttime isquite something.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, Well, I'll talk about a long day.
So I was at work since sixo'clock this morning and I
literally just got back fiveminutes before, which I kind of
felt bad.
You're waiting in the waitingroom for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
No, you've got a lot going on.
I'm impressed you're keepingthis all going.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, no, you've got a lot going on.
I'm impressed you're keepingthis all going.
Yeah Well, thank you.
With that, it's really'm bornin South Africa, so I think I'm.
I suppose I don't often think ofmyself as an immigrant, but my
kids remind me consistently thatI'm an immigrant.
So I come from South Africa and, like many people from South
(02:38):
Africa who've traveled toexplore work opportunities,
we've lived in Europe and sortof we got to America via Europe.
So I feel like I've had acircuitous path that I think for
many leaders and I'm sureprobably you've seen this in the
military like you makedecisions or you go to places
based on need and requirementsand family situation and job
(03:00):
opportunity, and so I sort offeel like I don't have a very
integrated story.
I mean, I know we're going totalk about the book, but I
called it the SpiralingStaircase because I feel I've
gone in a lot of circles buthopefully always towards a level
of consciousness.
So I'm from South Africa and Iknow your interest is in
(03:21):
leadership and for me, I thinkwhen I've, I feel like I stood
into leadership roles sort ofthroughout nursery school, high
school, those kinds ofexperiences, but I think when I
became very conscious ofleadership as a concept and as
an area of study was.
I studied industrial psychologyundergrad at college and there I
just, I think, much like you, Ijust found a love.
(03:43):
I love for this field and I lovefor an interest, and so my
interest was very much on whatdoes it take for people to feel
motivated and engaged and wantto thrive in places at work?
And it has so much to do withwho their leaders are.
And so that was where myinterest started.
And then it was only when I gotto the states that more and
more of my coaching clients andI know you have a number of
(04:06):
coaching clients more and moreof my coaching clients were
women, and I started seeing verysimilar patterns that I started
thinking, oh, there's somethingI really want to do in the
women's space.
And so it was only when I gotto the States that I immersed
myself more and more in womenexperiences and then got
involved in universities, andthat's kind of where I find
myself now.
I feel like I'm always bestwhen I kind of straddle industry
(04:29):
and academia.
Those two places work well forme as a place to work from.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Industrial psychology .
That is such an interestingdegree.
So my bachelor's degree is incriminal psychology.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, I know right, there's some similar.
I don't know if there'ssimilarities there or not, but
industrial psychology where didyou go to school at?
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So I went to school in South Africa and I think
what's to me is interestingthere's probably a lot of
similarities because I thinklargely it's the study of human
nature.
If you think and you knowyou're looking at when probably
human nature crosses legalboundaries and for me it was
(05:12):
human nature in places of work.
So industrial psychology, asopposed to clinical or other
parts of psychology, is reallylooking at how do people thrive
in workplaces?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I love that.
Yeah, so that was a lot ofcriminal psychology is what
motivates people behind likecriminal acts and then when they
do commit a criminal act, kindof identifying them to allow law
enforcement to define themrather quickly.
So I'd love to kind of hearfrom that study what was kind of
your thesis, what did you findthat motivates people?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
What was kind of your thesis?
What did you find thatmotivates people?
I think it was both acombination of what I studied
but living in South Africathrough the transformation of
the country, and I think what Iwas very clear of is that I
think you can motivate people ina short-term way by threats or
rewards or bribes or whatever itis that allows for a lot of, I
think, short-term way, by likethreats or rewards or bribes or
(06:04):
whatever it is that that allowsfor a lot of, I think,
short-term performance.
But I think if you want tosustain, in my world, like from
a career perspective, if youwant to sustain leadership
ambition over time, I think theonly way to motivate people is
to give them a vision ofthemselves or of the
organization of a team that theycan live into.
And so to me, ultimately, Ifeel that that's what motivates
(06:30):
and engage people is if peoplehave a vision of the future
that's compelling, they getmotivated now.
I find if you have no vision ofthe future, you don't wait to
the future to get demotivated.
You get demotivated now.
So for me, I feel what I workwith most probably with leaders
is how do they create compellingvisions and share them in ways
(06:53):
that inspire people to live intothose visions, and I think as a
coach, that's what I do as wellis help people sort of catch
sight of who they can be in thefuture.
And so, for me, I always feellike I work a lot with visions,
whether personal or corporate orunits, but I think that, to me,
is what motivates people.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, I think vision is.
It's really powerful in terms ofwhen I've commanded
organizations before and Ireally understood the power of
it when I took over my firstcompany Rifle Company Command.
Before that job I was anobserver, coach, trainer, so I
just got to see like 26different rotations and 26
(07:34):
different Joshes in the job thatI was getting ready to take and
I saw what worked and whatdidn't work and really what it
was.
And it kind of goes down to thedefinition of what I define
leadership, as is the ability toinspire.
And I think what you're sayingtoo in terms of a vision is that
if the vision of where you'rewanting to take someone inspires
(07:56):
them, then they're going to bebought into what you want to do,
but if it's like, eh, I don't,I don't get excited about that.
So I had a good friend of mineI'd love to hear what your
thoughts is on this.
Talk about head and heartalignment and when I heard that
it was like boom, it was like anepiphany.
(08:16):
Is that if you can see it butyou can also feel it emotion
create alignment between yourhead and your heart then your
hands will automatically want todo the work.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, no, I think you're rightand I think you know.
To me, the example of that,coming from South Africa, was
when Nelson Mandela came intopower.
That's what he did, if youthink.
He came into a country that wasunbelievably separated, very
bitter, after years of sort ofpolitical strife, and he created
a vision and he called it theRainbow Nation, and by calling
it the Rainbow Nation, he gaveall people, regardless of race,
(08:52):
a way to see themselves in thisfuture, and so he was remarkable
at doing that, and you're right.
If someone can describe it andyou can feel it in your heart,
then, yeah, it compels you towant to act and build something.
So, no, I think you're right,it's very powerful.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, so okay.
So you completed your degree.
When did you make your way toAmerica?
Is that where you started yourcoaching journey, or yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Well, yes, I only started coaching in America.
So what was interesting is we?
So I did both my undergrad andmy master's in industrial
psychology at the University ofJohannesburg, so I completed
that there.
But what was interesting and Iknow I think I'm correct, I
think you have kids, yeah,absolutely first, son, and South
(09:42):
Africa was finally liberated.
And we, you know, for a longtime you'd been almost
embarrassed, as a white SouthAfrican, to travel and we were
like, okay, we just want totravel.
And our goal was our son wasyoung and we were like we want
to travel and live on differentcontinents and get back to South
Africa so our eldest couldstart elementary school.
So we just headed out and wetook jobs wherever there were
(10:05):
opportunities and so we headed.
So I mean, we were, I wasmarried, my husband and I were
now probably I don't know wewere now late twenties.
We had one kid and we justthought we were just going to
live on each differentcontinents and find a job and
see what we did.
And so we lived just outsideLondon and we worked there, we
spent time in Europe, we livedin Ireland and we came to
(10:28):
America.
It was supposed to be aone-year gig.
So we came to America for aone-year gig so that we would be
back in South Africa for myeldest to start school and at
that point we'd had another kid.
So I have two sons and we'd gotpets and all the things that we
were traveling circus.
And when we got to the States Ijust I fell in love with where
(10:49):
we lived.
I just it's.
I know Pittsburgh gets a badrap in this country.
I think people see Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Are you from Pittsburgh?
Well, no, I'm a Steelers fan,so I grew up in like rural West
Virginia, so I was like threehours away from Pittsburgh.
I would go there all the time.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Beautiful city.
It's beautiful.
So we got here and I, just Ifell in love with the city and I
fell in love with theneighborhoods, and I had two
young sons.
And what I loved is I would goto work and I would get calls
from the neighbors going do youknow what your boys are doing
now?
You know, like it was just, itwas just very communal.
And it was just very communaland it was, and so I, just I
(11:27):
really wanted to spend some timebringing my kids up here.
So we, we chose to stay, stayhere, and that's we never left.
We're still here, our family'sstill in South Africa, so we
visit a lot.
So sorry so I'm, I'm getting abit sidetracked.
So we, we, we get to the statesand I had not done coaching
until we got to America and atthe time I was doing workshop
programming, but it was reallyinteresting.
I was working in financialservices, but during a boom time
(11:51):
there was a lot of money, andthe clients I was working with
were basically saying we likewhat you're doing in a workshop,
but can't you do it one-on-onewith us?
And so you know, coming from acountry like I came from, which
is a developing country, they'renot enormous resources.
So I was shocked that companieswould make money available for
(12:11):
a coach to work one-on-one withthe person where we would
literally like have workshopswith 60 or 70 people in.
So for me, I love coaching, Iknow it's highly effective, but
it feels like an enormous luxury, and so I feel countries like
America that make theseresources are available.
I feel like this is where Ilearned my skill sets, because I
(12:31):
don't know how many othercountries would have put this
amount of resource behinddeveloping leaders one-on-one.
So, yes, so that's a very longway, joshua, of saying my
coaching started in the States.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
You said something that is powerful Coaching is
luxury, and that's so true isthat I've never I guess I never
thought about that and youprobably think I'm crazy that I
do 100% free coaching formilitary.
So part of one of the DODpolicies they just released is
(13:05):
called the Army Coaching Program.
So they'll take a Army officeror non-commissioned officer that
have a certain level of tenureand they'll take them through an
ICF-accoded coaching programand then at the end of the day
you go back and you take acoaching hat into your
organization and you try tocultivate a coaching culture.
(13:28):
If I would have known and I'mtelling you, if I would have
known what I'd known when I wasa company commander, when I used
to lead like hundreds of menand women, I would have been a
phenomenal leader.
And it kind of kicks myself inthe butt is that I wish I would
have found a coach, because it's100% free resource if you're in
the military and you'relistening, you just could find
one.
It would have made me such abetter leader.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Oh, totally, I think I mean to me.
What's so interesting is I'mnot sure if you're aware of
Project Oxygen.
It was a project that was donewith Google, and there was a
time where Google felt therewere too many leaders and they
weren't sure you know what goodthey were doing, and so they got
rid of a lot of managementlevels.
(14:13):
But there was, as you canimagine, a lot of struggles
around coordination anddelegation and those things, so
they reintroduced leaders.
But what was great is theylooked very thoughtfully at what
are the behaviors that we knowreally make a difference for
leaders.
And, to your point, coachingskills was one of the main ones,
and so we know.
I think it is such a helpfulstyle for a leader to assume a
(14:37):
kind of coaching stance Because,to your point, you're highly
effective, it's a very inclusiveway of leading, it's a
thoughtful, empathic way ofleading, and so, no, I agree, I
think it is powerful and it'samazing to me if the military
makes that available to everyone.
That's wonderful.
And, to your point, if you wantto be a good leader, one of the
best ways is to learn reallygood coaching skills.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
I think that's one of the most beautiful things, that
it's never came up in any of mypodcast episodes yet is that
the common denominator thatmakes a great leader is their
ability to put on a coaching hat.
And I don't think a lot ofpeople understand what a coach
truly is, because when I firststarted, you have a mentor, you
(15:21):
can have a mentor, you can havea counselor, and then you can
kind of have a coach, and acoach is completely different.
So would would you mind maybeseparating and explaining what a
coach is?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
sure.
So how, I think, I suppose, how, how I, how I separate.
It's interesting.
You use coach and, and I thinkthat's great, because if you
think a coach is someone whosort of comes next to you and
talks with you and a mentor issomeone that you kind of talk up
to, or they talk to you and asponsor talks about you, you
(15:54):
know, like they sponsor yousomewhere.
So I think that's how it'sseparate there, but how I've
always separated it, cause in myworld I think people struggle
to separate what is a coach,what is a therapist and what is
a consultant.
And so if I think of thatcontinuum.
So if we think of therapy likeon one side of the continuum, so
therapy to me is about mentalhealth and well-being and it's
(16:18):
often looking to your past tomake you successful now.
So that to me is how I kind ofthink of therapy.
And then I think on the otherside.
I think of consulting.
We're consulting in workplaces.
If you bring consultants in,they come in to tell you what to
do, like they are the experts,they're the solution providers.
They come in and tell you whatto do, where coaching to me kind
(16:40):
of falls a bit in the middleand some may agree with me that
they may think it should fallmore in the therapy side.
To me, or what's worked for meas a coach is I'm coming
alongside someone, I'm helpingthem find solutions that are
successful for them.
But I do find I am a littleinstructive and I know that's
(17:01):
not fully coaching.
But I find a lot of my clientsare very impatient, they're very
driven and they kind of arelike what, if I've got to sit
and figure this all out myself,I don't need a coach to help me.
So I think that that's a coach.
I mean, almost everyone in thiscountry has played sports at
some time, whether it was sortof YSUCK or someone.
(17:24):
So a coach was someone wholooked at you, saw your talents,
guided you, helped you fit in,gave you feedback, listened to
your concerns, helped you figureout solutions.
That's how I think of coaching.
But in the practice of mycoaching I feel sometimes I slip
into instruction just because Ithink my clients value it and I
(17:44):
feel like we're so crunched fortime.
But that's sort of, I suppose,how in my mind I always go
there's a therapist, there's acoach and there's a consultant
is how I would think of it.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, I love that and I think sometimes too, that's a
beautiful way of describing it.
And so coaching is it pullsfrom your past I wrote this down
and it charts a course for yourfuture.
So I think it's kind of theblend of all of those a
therapist, a consultant and acoach.
And when I've had a coupleclients, I think you have to
understand when to be a littlebit more assertive.
(18:15):
Some people need hey, here'sthe plan, execute it.
And even some of the clientsthat I've had because I've been
in the military and I am in themilitary is that they want that
rigid structure sometimes, whichis interesting.
But I think every person isdifferent.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, and if I can just interrupt, what to me is so
interesting is I ran aleadership center at our
university for many years and wehad a lot of vets come in, so
lots of veterans coming throughour leadership center, and what
to me was always so interesting,joshua, was how many of them
had so much experience inleadership you know because by
(18:55):
like, just listening to you talk, but at a very young age you
were leading platoons, like.
so if you think of like, youknow the average age of an MBA
student is about 27.
So if you think how many other27 year olds have had
(19:28):
significant leaders and how widetheir leadership experience has
been, from very young ages.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
That is a critical point.
And that's beautiful too isthat when I was 23, I had my
first platoon that I took overin Afghanistan, and that was 44
soldiers.
And then, when I was 27, I hadmy first company command of 130
soldiers and millions of dollarsof equipment.
And then, when I was 32, I hadmy second company command, or,
(19:55):
sorry, 29.
I had my second company commandof 250.
So I've never thought of it inthat lens, is that the
leadership experience that I'vehad outweighs my age?
I, if that makes sense- I thinkit does.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I, I, you know, I think myself and all our
colleagues were always blownaway at the sophistication and
the nuance and the understandingof what it is to lead at very
young ages.
So we would get all thestudents in and our goal was to
develop them as leaders duringthe MBA time with us, and so
many of the vets were just at avery different place when it
(20:34):
came to leadership because oftheir experience.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
What were some of the common?
Because that's really one of mybig passions, that I'm looking
at doing is trying to promotetransformational leadership
practices and skills, becausewhat I've seen is that there's
two paths that leaders can takeat a fundamental like, at that
molding point in their career.
They can either view people asan asset, if that makes sense,
(20:58):
plant and let them grow, letthem mature, and then when they
harvest right, it's not just awin, it's continuing able to win
.
Or they can view them as atransitional stepping stone is
that you may work for me, butI'm going to use you to get to
the next position, and I've seenit both in the military and the
civilian force, where I go intoacquisition, and with the
(21:21):
civilian side.
What were some of the commonthemes with those individuals
that were applying for the MBAprogram?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
So with the vets who were coming through or with the
civilians who are coming through?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
If you have the time, I'd love to hear both.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Okay, no, you know, I think what to me was
interesting with the vets comingthrough is, I think, as you
were commenting now, I thinkthey often didn't realize how
much experience they had.
I think they see civilian lifeas so different to military life
that they don't understand thedepth of their military
experience as leaders, just asstraight up leaders.
(21:56):
So I think they often discounthow much leadership experience
they have and how much theyunderstand human nature.
So, I think that's what vetsdidn't understand.
They could have felt far moreconfident in the leadership
skills they brought.
I do think the challenge was ina civilian environment is so in
a military environment you canlead, and not that people will
(22:20):
choose to do this, but you canlead by command and control.
There is a line of authority.
There's a line of command.
And so it's pretty helpful andpretty straightforward because
that is all specified upfrontand people know how to act
within those norms, and so Ifeel the biggest challenge many
of the vets had was going intocivilian leadership roles was
(22:42):
understanding how often you haveto have influence with no
authority.
So you know how do you walkaround things, how do you help
people go in.
You can't be directive.
Command and control is notaccepted in many environments.
So I think that was the biggestchallenge was this idea that
there is no line of command andeven if there is, people expect
(23:03):
you to show up in a far moreinclusive fashion.
So I felt that was thechallenge, I think, for many of
our vets coming through and thenI think for our other students.
So again, if you think of theage, the average age is 27.
And the people who are comingthrough our program were just
smart, like really bright people.
And I think, for many studentswho are moving into leadership
(23:26):
roles, it's hard to understandthat it doesn't matter that
you're the smartest person inthe room.
So like you may, be the smartestperson in the room, but if
you're not emotionallyintelligent and you don't know
how to read the room and youdon't know how to take people
with you, you're going to not bevery effective.
And so I think there's thischallenge of if something is
(23:47):
logical and we know it to beright and I'm smart like how can
it not make sense, how can wenot move in a certain direction?
So I think for those studentsit was more like do I really
have to listen to someone whomaybe I don't respect as much
intellectually, or I've got toplay politics, or I've got to
listen to all these things?
So I think for both of them,influence was the big problem,
(24:11):
but coming from very differentplaces.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, I love that.
So the military influence withno authority.
And, to be 100% honest, I kindof ran through that struggle a
couple years ago when I wentinto acquisitions so dealing is
cost schedule, performance,managing a program, working with
civilian DOD still active dutymilitary but how do I motivate
(24:38):
people that I do not have directauthority over or influence
over, that have wildly amazingeducation backgrounds I'm
talking like from Stanford andYale and Harvard, like deep
engineering degrees, have adepth of experience that blows
me away, like retired colonels.
(24:58):
And here's this happy majorcoming into a room trying to get
them on a vision, trying to bea shepherd to take them to the
journey.
And what I really found out andI'd love to hear it dawned on
me finally is it's all aboutrelationships.
If you can build authenticrelationships, then it does two
things it cultivates trust and Ithink trust happens in two
(25:20):
forms that I've learned in themilitary through either like
crucible events, like being outin an operational experience
with someone, or a toughenvironment, or frequency.
And if you're with someone longenough, you start to develop
trust because you know who thatperson is.
And then, when you build thattrust, then you start earning
respect and then people justhave this reputation.
(25:41):
It's like, okay, josh may beyoung, but he genuinely cares
about us and his word is gold.
And once you have thatreputation, then you build that
relationship.
Then I think you're unstoppable.
It's like a tire with tractionyou can just keep going.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I think it's exactly that.
I think you're right.
I think it is it'srelationships, it's building
trust, and I think this probablysounds a little Machiavellian,
but in the situation you weredescribing, it also had to do
with probably give and take.
You had something they needed,they had something they knew.
So people are probably alsoaware of the power at play in
terms of who needed what and how, and if you understand that,
(26:21):
you can also work effectively.
I think.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, and that was another beautiful thing and you
kind of hinted to it as well isthat you have to understand what
your strengths are.
Kind of going into a team andit took me a really long time to
to discover what my strengthswere.
But how do I employ thosestrengths?
Right, because people on myteam have wildly different
strengths and if I can't figureout what my dead space is,
(26:47):
meaning that, okay, I have my, Ihave my focus area of where my
strengths are and where I'm goodat, but if I go out to the left
or right, that's my dead space.
I'm not good in that area, butthere's people on my team whose
strengths cover my dead spaceand if we can do that, then we
become a better organization.
And how can I leverage theirstrengths to the best possible
(27:07):
ability to cover my strengths?
At the end of the day, justwinning as an organization.
The other thing that I love thatyou talked about is people who
I think don't have that depth ofleadership experience, focus
and rely on their education Like, oh well, this is what the book
(27:27):
said.
So I have to go to it and I'veidentified like one of the
practices that leaders have tobreak when they first start and
not go down that transitionalpath is by the book.
So if you go by the book as aleader, you start to fall into
pitfalls, because this may soundcrazy, I guess, to some people,
but I think part of being aleader is learning how to live
(27:51):
with risk and mitigating risk,operating in that gray and then
if you rely on your educationand what the book told you to do
there is never going to be aperfect answer.
That is a book.
It's just not going to happen.
And if it does, then it'sprobably not a real scenario.
It's probably a trainingexercise.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
No, and to that point , what was interesting, what we
actually did as well at theuniversity is we would run what
we would call failure labs.
Because, to your point, whenyou sort of are well-educated
and you're bright, you're reallynot used to making mistakes, so
you don't like making mistakes.
But if you look at successfulentrepreneurs or successful
leaders, what they're able to dois make a mistake, learn from
(28:34):
it really quickly and redirect,and so, to your point, there
will be no progress if we're nottaking some risk, if we're not
trying something new, becausethen we to me, then we're just
offering imitation.
If we're just meetingrequirements of what we've been
told or what the situationdemands, that's not leadership,
that's You're just a competentworker bee doing your thing.
(28:55):
That's not leading.
So if we're looking fortransformation or innovation or
any of the things we knoworganizations are desperate for,
it takes risk.
But the minute you move intorisky behavior you're going to
make mistakes and most people, Ithink, who are really good, who
are perfectionists, are soscared of making mistakes that
they don't take risk.
But that keeps them in thesekind of middle management,
(29:17):
worker bee type positions, whichwe appreciate them for because
they're doing tasks beautifully,but there's none of the
transformation you're talkingabout.
So I know, I think it's vitalto to learn to just make
mistakes, learn from them.
I mean thoughtful, not makethem, you know, not just because
you want to make a mistake, butif you make a mistake, it's how
quickly do you recover?
(29:37):
That's, I think, is veryimportant as a leader.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
There's a thing that we do in the military and it's
so simple.
Most of everything I do in mylife, I follow the KISS rule, so
keep it simple.
Stupid, yeah, but it's an afteraction review, so an AAR.
So what were we supposed to do?
What did we do?
How can we improve and then gotake action again and just do it
, and it's just a loop.
And to kind of give you a realworld example of what I'm
(30:02):
struggling with with my teamright now so I manage a small
drone that we filled out to thearmy and we're in the process of
doing a second iteration andwe're in this rapid prototyping
and it's it's really hard forthe team to conceptualize.
With this alpha demonstrationthat we're doing.
Birds are going to crash intotrees, like the drones are going
(30:24):
to crash into trees.
They're going to fall out ofthe sky because the hardware is
not locked, the software is notlocked.
And but what we're going tolearn from this event?
The vendors are going to takeit on to betas and they're going
to improve, and then that forbetas it's probably going to
happen again, maybe not as bad,but then at the next test event
it's going to be even better.
And and the vision is thatwe're going to be able to field
(30:44):
a disruptive small UAStechnology that soldiers can use
, that'll fit in their rucksackand is going to save lives and
it took me a while to kind offigure that, but that was
beautifully said is that failureis incremental and I don't
think we ever truly fail as longas we keep trying.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
But what I love is what you shared in that example
is such a strong vision thatyou're obviously sharing with
your team.
This is what we're going todevelop the small drone that can
fit in the backpack and savelives.
So I'm all in, like already,I'm like oh, there's a vision
that's inspiring, so I'm goingto work it.
And then you've got to createthe environment as you're
describing.
How do we make a mistake andlearn from it?
Like, if we're so careful withthese drones and we're too
(31:24):
scared to let them fly and tooscared to let them bump into
trees, then we're not going todevelop the technology.
We need to take the risk.
And how do we learn?
And I love it.
It's interesting you talk andthis is more just a sidebar when
you were talking about an afteraction review.
Yeah, what to me is interestingI'm working with a corporate
team at the moment, so acivilian team.
But what I love is, you know, Ithink all leaders struggle so
(31:48):
much with difficultconversations.
They're hard to have, but ifthey use the format that you've
just shared, after actionreviews just become wonderful
ways to have difficultconversations.
So it's not about, you know,sort of shouting at someone,
it's not about tripping someoneup, it's not about pointing out
errors, it's but as a mechanismfor just great team learning and
, without realizing it, peopleare having a difficult
(32:20):
conversation.
So it's perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
That's another beautiful thing that you brought
up too is like radical candor.
I don't know if you've everread the book by Kim Scott, yeah
.
So how can you be respectfulwith someone, someone, but
challenge them directly?
And that's the science of it.
And the military, I think, doesa beautiful job.
I remember when I first started, my boss was going to tell me,
(32:43):
josh, you have to have thickskin, but at the end of the day,
it's not having people call youout, but it's people
identifying faults.
And you may have been the issue, but at the end of the day, if
I succeed, the team succeeds.
And on my shirt, the back ofthis slogan that I have, it has
team of teams.
(33:04):
That was our company motto isthat if you're successful, the
team's successful, and it's notabout us, it's about the legacy
of our organization.
So when I was a companycommander, if our battalion is
doing well, we are doing well,and if we are doing well, then
at the individual soldier,they're doing well and that's
beautiful.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I love that and I just feel in corporate
environments I feel there's verylittle radical candor.
I think we know there are a fewexamples of companies that use
that model, but not many, and Ioften think that's why people
appreciate coaching so much.
Often I feel with my clientswhat they love more than
anything is they're actuallygetting 360 feedback, because no
(33:45):
one's giving them the straightanswer, no one's telling them
what's really going on, and sowith coaching it's a more
structured process so you canget 360.
But really I feel all that myclients are finally getting
radical, candid feedback, youknow, and it's the only way, I
think, to change performance,because otherwise it's ambiguous
feedback and no one knows whereto go and what to do and what's
(34:06):
important.
And so I know I love the candorof a coaching process and
specifically when people get 360degree feedback, because it
just helps people understandwhere they are for the first
time normally in their careers.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
All right, team, let's take a quick break from
this podcast and I want topersonally invite you to our
private Facebook community thatI call Purposeful Accountable
Leaders, or PALS, and PALS is acommunity dedicated to inspiring
and developing servant leadersby sharing transformational
stories and skills Exactly whattells the leadership is all
about.
My goal is to build a communityof like-minded leaders that can
(34:44):
share lessons, learn, askquestions and celebrate wins
when it happens.
And my mission in life is clearI will end toxic leadership by
sharing transformational storiesand skills, and you will find
countless transformationalleaders in this group, many of
them I have had the honor toserve with in the military.
If you want to find a communitythat can help you grow both
(35:06):
personally and professionally,we would love to have you.
You can simply searchPurposeful Accountable Leaders
on Facebook or click theLeadership Resources tab in the
show notes to join.
I am looking forward to seeingyou guys and continuing to grow
together on our leadershipjourney.
Back to the podcast, so I wouldlove to kind of transition over
(35:27):
to your book, I think Climbingthe Spiral Staircase, and kind
of walk me up to like write thatright before the moment that
you decided to write a book,because I love to journal and
I've already felt like five orsix notebooks, but I can still
never visualize me ever writinga book, because it seems like
such a daunting task.
What motivated you to write it?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
I think to me again it's that resource question is
that you know, at a university,in a business school that's
beautifully resourced and welook after a very small number
of students with all theseresources, especially for women,
(36:16):
during the pandemic how manywomen were choosing to opt out
or downshift or downgrade theircareers?
It was getting alarming becausethe numbers were.
You know, the projections werethat we're going to go back to
kind of 20 years because womenhave just changed and rethought
ambition.
And so my idea with the bookwas how do I take all the
learning that we're makingavailable to very few women and
sort of distribute it in thequickest way?
(36:38):
And a book was that way.
I think a book is the fastestway to get a lot of people the
same information that are notgoing to potentially have access
to a business school or want tostudy an MBA, and so you know,
it was a way of kind ofdemocratizing that knowledge.
I think is how I think of thebook.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Wow.
So, without giving the bookaway, what would be a couple
tips that you can share?
Speaker 2 (37:04):
I think so.
The book is focused on women,but if you have daughters or you
lead women on your team, Iwould encourage you to read it.
So what the book does is youknow, I think for many of us and
I don't know if you feel thatway you know you sort of go to
2022 in America.
Why are we still talking aboutwomen's issues, like, surely
we've dealt with all of this?
(37:25):
And so what the book does?
It really just shares in a veryevidence-based way what the
real biases are at work, like,what are these unconscious
biases?
How do they play out?
But, more importantly, my bigworry is everyone loves admiring
the problem, but no one givesstrategies to fix it.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
So what I do is Call it out, but don't fix it.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah.
So I kind of map the biasesthat women will bump into in
workplaces, things like doublebind, how they get feedback,
what happens in meetings, sovery tactical experiences of
when you're a young womanstarting work.
Because really, if you look atwhat happens with women, if you
measure their confidence,ambition when they start and two
(38:08):
years into their career, it'salarming how quickly women's
confidence and ambition plummetsbecause of ambiguous workplaces
.
So workplaces where feedback isgiven differently to women,
performance management looksdifferent, double like they're
just dealing with a host ofchallenges that men are not
dealing with, and so my bookkind of lays out what those
(38:29):
challenges are, but thenstrategies for how to mitigate,
how to be successful in a worldthat's a little complicated
around gender, and so I supposein a nutshell, that's the book.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
You're going to love my background because I think
I'm going to be a case study.
So, as an infantry officer,when I first started it was only
male combat arms and you know,in between going through uh,
infantry, spending my time, theyfinally opened it up into, um,
women being able to join and I'mtelling you like that stressed
(39:03):
me out so much because not froma standpoint of not ever serving
under a woman or leading awoman, but how do I communicate?
Because I've always been aroundmales and if I had that book?
Because so now, for example,like my colonel for PMUAS and 06
level is a female, she is aphenomenal leader and my 05
(39:24):
civilian leader I won't say hername, she is a phenomenal leader
and there's so many people onmy team that work with me that
are above me that are female andit kind of broke that whole
mindset is that.
But I, but I had to be put intothat environment.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
I love that no, because I think to me what's sad
.
I sort of feel like I thank youfor being so honest, because I
think that's the challenge.
If you've always been in a maleenvironment and you've led
teams of men, it is going to bea little alarming if, oh, okay,
now they're going to be women inthe mix, and so I think it is
important to go okay.
So what are going to be thechallenges?
Is it going to be different?
(40:00):
What are the differences?
What are the differences thatare important?
What are differences that areunimportant?
And then, how do I manage them?
And as much as you would do asa leader with personalities, I
always find it amazing.
People want to tell me they're.
Myers-Briggs, or they want totell me this assessment or that
assessment.
But you mentioned gender andeveryone gets all like, oh no, I
don't want to talk about genderwhere it's just another lens,
(40:23):
the fact like when I'm lookingat you, I can see that you're
presenting as a man, and sothey're going to be certain
unconscious biases at play.
So let's understand them and sothat I can be a better
inclusive leader.
And so I'm always surprised athow we sort of don't want to
talk about gender when it's just, it's real.
And if we spend all our timetrying to understand human
(40:43):
nature, we need to understandthe world with a gender lens as
well, because it's how we'rejudging people.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
So I think that that is so beautiful and I'm kind of
like I'm trying to figure outhow to break that right now in
my mind.
So Indiograms is something thatI really really want to dig
into because I think that thatkeeping it simple stupid you
know there's nine basic profiletypes is that you can categorize
anyone in, but like leading awoman versus leading a man, if I
(41:10):
can categorize you quickly inone of these nine categories, at
the end of the day, what makesa leader successful is their
ability to collaborate and tocommunicate.
If I can collaborate with youand I can communicate with you
because I know what your profiletype is, then I can lead you
and that is the most importantthing and it starts building
that trust, building thatrespect that we talked about.
(41:32):
Have you had any experiencewith the Enneagrams?
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Yeah, I have had.
Sorry, I want to get to theEnneagram now, but I think
sometimes, just to go back toyour question about gender and
working with gender, I thinkwhat's also helpful as a leader
is also to know okay, I spend somany hours in a day in meetings
If we know in meetings whotalks more, who's interrupted
more, whose ideas areappropriated, and if there is a
(41:59):
gender bias to this and we knowthere is, there's a lot of
evidence around that then as aleader now I can run my meetings
differently.
Or if I'm going to be looking atresumes and if I know if I look
at a blind resume I'm morelikely to pick someone than if I
see a woman's name and she's ina PTA, then I should use blind
resumes.
And so that's what I think isimportant as a leader when it
(42:21):
comes to gender is I thinksometimes it's so hard to
de-bias ourselves, but we cancertainly de-bias all the
processes we work with and justrun really good best practices.
So what's best practice arounda meeting, best practice around
a performance management, bestpractice around selection?
I think that's great forleaders to think about as well.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
So you have one thing that I really want to share
that the Army is doing that Ilove.
Is that so in our professionalresumes it's called ORB, so an
officer readiness or an ORB Ican't even think of the word
right now.
Anyway, I'll look up theacronym, I can't think of it but
they take off your pictures.
(43:02):
So it's just what you've done,what your degrees are, where
you're from.
But they take off your picturesand before I'm the
stereotypical infantry officer,right, like I'm tall, I'm skinny
, I can run really fast, I got ajawline Before.
I would be treated differently,I would you know, and that's
(43:27):
just the nature of it.
Have one bad seed that kind ofhas those perceptions and
continues to lead with thoseperceptions, the amount of
people that they can ruinthroughout their career is just
absolutely mind-boggling.
I've seen great men and womenget out of the military for just
one bad leader, just one badleader, and I can probably count
(43:49):
more good leaders than I've hadbad leaders, but what always
pops in my mind are the worstleaders that I've ever had,
because they're so powerful.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yeah, no, huge, hugely powerful.
So no, I agree, I think I'mexcited to hear, I just think
there's so many elegant, quickbest practices we can use, like
just take photographs of thatchange the world for so many
people.
So, no, thank you for sharingthat example.
As for the Enneagram, so to meit's really interesting.
I've used the Enneagram morefrom a spiritual practice
(44:20):
perspective and so my exposureto the Enneagram has largely
come through spiritual teachersbecause, as you know, we have
our dark side and our strength,and so it was interesting to me
when you were talking aboutStrengthsFinder earlier, because
if you see the Enneagram askind of a mode for spiritual
(44:41):
development, it becomes a placeto think through.
You know, what are the parts ofme that need to be resolved?
Because they're dark parts inthe Enneagram as well as light.
So, no, I think it's lovely.
The closest I've seen, I've seenprobably two commercial
organizations take the versionsof the Enneagram and use it, I
(45:05):
think, highly effectively asassessments, which is you
probably talking about, andwhere I find and I'm curious how
you want to use it, how I foundit most helpful from a coaching
practice.
It helps me understand, likecore motivation, because, to the
point that you were talkingabout is that you can.
For example, I was gathering360 feedback for a client this
(45:29):
morning who I'm coaching and alot of people keep saying which
is really interesting they keepsaying he doesn't.
It's clear to them he doesn'thave passion for his role, like
they're looking for engagementpassion.
But what to me is clear inEnneagram language in many ways
it's not.
His role is not at a very deeplevel, meeting his core
(45:51):
motivation, like the thingthat's going to drive him and
power him, and I think that, tome, is where Enneagram is
helpful.
It helps you, I think, reallychoose right role, like you know
, are people in the right role?
Is your team deployed with theright role?
Are they using the strengthsthat you were talking about?
So I think yeah.
I'm curious, like, how wouldyou be thinking of using the
Enneagram?
Speaker 1 (46:11):
I see some similarities between those exact
same things and I'm gettingready to start, because I'm an
avid reader and the next bookthat I'm going to be reading is
the Way Back to you, kind ofwalking through the Enneagram
and really digging into that.
But the way I guess I kind ofsee is exactly what you just
said is what motivates you andhow do you absorb information
(46:33):
and how do you communicate thatinformation?
Because I think that's thefirst fundamental level of
leading someone is how you canabsorb information, how you give
information.
And then what is youroverarching motivator?
Do you want to do a really goodwork in your job or do you want
to chase significance versussuccess?
And then, if I know that, thenI can discover what your
(46:58):
individual strengths are andthen I can put you in the
perfect role to just absolutelysucceed.
And to me, the secret of lifefor fulfillment because I'm just
an acronym wizard, so I call itthe three Ps is you have to
have perspective, you have tohave passion and you have to
have a purpose.
And when you connect thosethree together, I think that's
(47:19):
what gives fulfillment.
And at the end of the day, whatgreat leaders do is they give a
sense of fulfillment to peopleon their team because they're
able to connect those things.
And I know there's a way to dothat and I'm still, I guess, the
Tunkman model.
I'm still kind of formingthrough that in my brain.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yeah, oh no, I think you're going to like the
Enneagram work then a lot.
I think it's fascinating,there's so much there.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
I think it's with our psychology backgrounds that I
love reading psychology-basedbooks.
They're so fascinating.
One of my favorite books toread is Influence.
Have you ever read that one?
Yeah, yeah, I love that book.
Okay, so kind of on yourleadership journey right now
where do you want to be in fiveto 10 years and what do you want
(48:07):
to impact?
Speaker 2 (48:12):
in five to 10 years and what do you want to impact?
So I think my work, the twomain focuses of my work, is I
want to help women thrive incareers Like to me.
I think it's sad.
I think, because of how wesocialized and because of the
things women bump up at inworkplaces, they often feel
they're deficient and they don'tcatch sight of, kind of all the
beauty they can bring to theplaces they work.
So I would want to help womenunderstand you're not deficient,
(48:34):
there's some things you'rebumping up against and let's
work around them.
I can help you navigate that.
So I think I would want I mean,a big interest of mine is
helping women achieve that andthen, from a leadership
perspective, regardless ofgender, achieve that and then,
from a leadership perspective,regardless of gender, I think I
really want people to understandwhat are the evidence-based
strategies that create inclusiveenvironments.
(48:55):
I think a lot of people liketalking inclusion.
You know, I think we thinkcertain things are inclusive or
not, but there's, I think, somewonderful social science
research that's going on now.
That's really oh sorry.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
I just saw your kid.
Oh, I love it.
So that's a beautiful thing.
So I have a five-year-old and Ihave a nine-year-old, and
that's why I love like filmingat home is that I think part of
being a leader is beingauthentic and kind of accepting
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
So, yeah, my son's a wild man and he's going to
unlock my door and just come inevery once in a while.
I know I love it, it was lovelyseeing him.
So, josh, to go back, so Ithink there's the women's side,
and then there's the other side,and so those are the two things
I would want to work on, sothat's my main focus, for sure.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Yeah, the little man's distracted you with his
cuteness.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
No, he's so cute.
I just remember that age and Iremember my kids and I'm like,
oh, and he's like, and he'scharming, he's like it's just no
, it's lovely.
Yeah, it was lovely to bedistracted by him.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
No, well, that's awesome.
So the last kind of questionbefore we get to the final show
segment is I would love to hearyou know throughout your
leadership journey I call ityour house of leadership, but
it's essentially like yourleadership philosophy how you
lead people.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
How has your leadership philosophy kind of
changed over the years ormatured?
I felt that people with anexternal locus of control just
needed to whip themselves intoshape and develop an internal
locus of control.
So, I'm a big, you know, pullyourself up.
That's how I was brought up.
Pull yourself up by yourbootstraps.
You're not a victim.
(50:40):
You can take on everything youfind by yourself.
So I think when I'd initiallycome at leadership and initially
my work was all about, stopbeing a victim, like you know,
pick yourself up by yourbootstraps.
But then I think the more, theolder I've got, probably, and
the more to the point thatyou're saying, I think, the more
(51:01):
toxic work environments I'veseen, the more complicated
bosses I've seen, the more sortof clear ways that sort of
systems can discriminate againstpeople.
That shifted for me, becauseyou can keep trying to show up
in a specific way and takeresponsibility for your life and
be all that you want to be, butyou can really be hurt and
(51:23):
manipulated and shaped by thingsin your environment that often
you're not even aware of.
So I suppose what's changed forme over time I'd probably be a
bit more gentle on people now isI think I was just hard as,
like you know, come right back,you know, put up your big girl
pants, let's go when now.
I think I would.
(51:43):
Being a leader is hard work.
I think working is tough and Ithink I would extend more grace
and understand that at differentstages people are just going to
show up as better leaders.
But it's complicated, it's noteasy being a leader.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Yeah, I think that your leadership, your house of
leadership, foundation of mineare almost the same.
So I call it HUGS.
I'm an acronym wizard.
So humility, understanding,gratitude and having a servant
heart, and I think if you can dothat, then you're going to be a
great leader.
That's awesome.
It's time for our final showsegment that I like to call the
(52:21):
killer bees.
These are the same fourquestions that I ask every guest
on the Tales of Leadershippodcast Be brief, be brilliant,
be present and be gone.
Question one what do youbelieve separates an ordinary
leader from an extraordinaryleader?
Speaker 2 (52:40):
Realizing that leadership is not about them,
but about the people who arefollowing them.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
I love it All right.
Question two is what is oneresource that you could
recommend to our listeners?
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Marshall Goldsmith's book what Got you here Won't Get
you there An oldie but I thinkjust very behavioral with good
tips.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
I love that, and if I wrote a book I would have
totally just threw out my bookwith that question.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Oh, okay, sorry.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
My book Climbing the Spiral Staircase.
No, I'm truly inspired and I amexcited to read your book,
especially for my professionaldevelopment.
All right, so third questionI'm going to get sidetracked, I
can't help it.
The opportunity if you could goback in time and give your
younger self a piece of advice,what would it be?
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Oh, that's so hard.
Focus more on my career.
I sort of feel as a woman.
I spent a lot of time makingdecisions based on family
relationships, which is good.
My kids have thrived, I thinkmy husband is a happy person.
But I feel like you knoweveryone always goes, oh, enjoy
life more, and I was like, no, Icould have, I could have been
(53:44):
more intentional about my careerearly on.
I was.
I would give up things veryeasily to try and support a
family.
I think I would be moreintentional about my career.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
Wow.
So last question is how can ourlisteners find you and how can
they add value to you?
Speaker 2 (54:01):
So they could go to my website, which is
leanemeyercomL-E-A-N-E-M-E-Y-E-Rcom
leanemeyercomL-E-A-N-E-M-E-Y-E-Rcom
leanemeyercom, so they can findme there and I have my blogs and
articles and things, or theycould find me on LinkedIn and
how they could help.
I would love if people boughtthe book and told me what they
think.
I look forward to hearing whatyou think.
(54:22):
Joshua, you know I think what'sbeen interesting in writing a
book.
What I'd never thought about ishow different people experience
it differently, and so to me, Iwould love to hear how people
what resonates it, because it'sinteresting hearing what helps
people at different times, whichimproves my coaching practice
and improves what I can put backinto the world again, whether
(54:45):
it's in the written form oranything else.
So I would appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Yeah, thank you so much for filming this with me.
This has been one of myfavorite episodes and I needed
it today because it's been along day.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
Thank you so much.
Thank you, it was lovelychatting and enjoy yourself, and
I'm jealous that they're solittle.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yeah, have a great night.
All right, team, it's time forour after action review.
Here are the top threetakeaways you should have from
Leanne.
So first is influence with noauthority.
She was walking through herexecutive MBA program that there
are two different types ofpeople that came on board.
(55:26):
One of them were militaryofficers, military
non-commissioned officers,military soldiers.
That got out and the level ofinfluence that they had that was
significantly dropped when yougo into the civilian side.
So you had to quickly learn howto gain influence when you have
(55:47):
no authority and we kind of duginto that a little bit deeper
is that at the end of the day,you're going to have to learn
how to motivate people orinspire people, and it comes
down to your ability to buildrelationships when you're in the
military and if you'relistening to this, if you're
transitioning, you cannot usethose same leadership practices
(56:09):
that has made you successful inthe army or the air force, the
Navy, marine, coast Guard,whatever have you.
You're going to have to learn adifferent way of doing it and
you're going to have to learn toconnect authentically and have
relationships.
The second key takeaway that sheshared during that same
encounter because both of themjust stuck with me is that you
(56:30):
are not the smartest person inthe room and people who just
start their leadership journeysif they have no true experience
built up yet.
They rely on their education,not their experience.
Versus, if you're in themilitary and you get out, you
rely on your experience, notyour education.
But as a leader, you have tohave a certain level of humility
(56:54):
, understanding that you are notthe smartest person in the room
or on your team.
And if you think you are andI've shared this before in
several other episodes is thatyou're not a leader.
You should not be in aleadership position.
If you believe you're thesmartest person on your team and
I'll go back into the metaphoris that you are a lake.
You are a metaphorical lakethat is a mile wide and a foot
(57:16):
deep.
You understand all the tools atyour disposal and how to
maneuver those tools, but yourteam are whales.
They're a mile deep and a footwide.
They're the ones who do thework.
They're the ones that have thedetailed information and skills
to help.
Your job is to be a shepherd.
Your job is to provide a visionfor your team and get them to
(57:38):
that desired end state.
The last takeaway came right atthe tail end of this, where she
started sharing her spark on whyshe wrote the book and talking
about having lens.
A lens of leadership is that weall view leadership through our
biases our biases of where wecame from, culturally, how we
(58:01):
were raised, the leadershippractices that we learned when
we just started out.
But what makes atransformational leader, I think
, a true, purposeful,accountable leader pal that I
like to call is their ability tocall out those biases.
You have to realize when youare being biased, because to be
(58:23):
a true transformational leader,you have to have true diverse
teams.
And I've been on teams thathaven't been diverse and I've
been on teams that have beendiverse and I'm telling you,
when you have a team that isdiverse, the level of ingenuity
and creativity and motivationthat is there far outshines any
(58:44):
other team, because you aregetting some of the best
positive ideas that you can havewhen you have a diverse team,
versus having everyone whothinks exactly the same.
So when you're a leader andyou're in a leadership role,
understand that you're viewingthings through your lens and be
able to call it out.
If you've gotten any value fromtoday's episode, do me a favor
(59:07):
Leave a comment, leave a review,but, more importantly, share
this podcast with someone thatis just starting out on their
leadership journey.
I'm your host, josh McMillian,saying every day is a gift.
Don't waste yours.
I'll see you next time you.
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