#99 Lon Stroschein - Founder of Normal 40 and Best-selling Author - Tales of Leadership

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to the Tells the Leadership podcast
.
This podcast is for leaders atany phase on their leadership
journey to become a morepurposeful and accountable
leader what I like to call a pal.
Join me on our journey togethertowards transformational
leadership.
All right, team, welcome backto the Tells the Leadership

(00:22):
podcast.
I am your host, Josh McMillian.
I'm an active duty Army officer, I'm an Army leadership coach
and I'm the founder of McMillianLeadership Coaching, and I'm on
a mission to create a betterleader what I like to call a
purposeful, accountable leaderor a pal and my vision is to
impact 1 million lives in thenext 10 years by promoting
transformational stories andskills.

(00:49):
And on today's episode, I'mbringing you a transformational
leader Lon Stroschein.
He is the founder of Normal 40,and he's a bestselling author
of the book that he justrecently published the Trade up
in a very unique perspectivebeing a quote unquote Midwestern
boy to working for a US senator, to growing his leadership,

(01:14):
authority and responsibility, toultimately, one day, walking
away from a very successful joband putting his faith in himself
, taking risk in his self andcreating his own brand, which is
Normal40, which, by the way,he's doing absolutely phenomenal
.
He is an executive coach, yourlife coach, he's wrote a book,

(01:34):
he runs his own podcast and he'sbuilt his own community about
people that are afraid to takethat next step, that purposeful
action to reinvent themselves,and what he likes to talk about
is the trade as always team.
Stay on till the very end andI'll provide you the top three
takeaways that I took from thisepisode.

(01:56):
Let's go ahead and let lon on.
Lon.
Welcome to the tales ofleadership.
Round two how you doing,brother?

Speaker 2 (02:03):
I'm doing great man.
How are you doing?

Speaker 1 (02:04):
brother, I'm doing great man.
How are you doing?
Like we were talking aboutbefore.
There's nothing that I wouldrather do than to discuss what
I'm passionate about, which isleadership, and even though that
I have the day off, right likeit's Martin Luther King Jr
four-day weekend for themilitary.
This is something I'm deeplypassionate about and, again, I'm
humbled to just have theopportunity and the space to
discuss it with you.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Oh man, likewise, you said this is 2.0.
And what people probably don'trealize is that we tried this 18
months ago and we got done andthe audio somehow had a bug in
it and we weren't able to do it.
And if we can recreate thateven though neither one of us
can probably remember what wereally rambled about if we can
recreate that, this is going tobe absolutely a treat and I

(02:46):
think that's a testament to justbeing persistent and consistent
and being okay with beingimperfect, Like I've been now.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
You know podcasting, I know you've been podcasting
for a while and when I firststarted off like those first
three or four episodes werereally rough Me just figuring
out like what kind of battle,rhythm and systems that I needed
.
So thank you for the grace andbelieving in me enough to do a
round two.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
Oh man, of course it just comes with the territory.
When you're pushing theboundaries, you're going to have
glitches along the way.
That's just how it goes.
And so, look, it's happened tome many, many times more than I
care to really talk about, butthat's just how it goes, and
that's what happens when youkind of push the boundaries a
little bit.
So here we go.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
So let's start off with you just taking the time to
provide an overview to thelisteners of who you are.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah.
So first and foremost, I alwaysintroduce myself as a South
Dakota farm kid and that's 100%the truth.
I was born and raised on ourfamily farm.
I was the fourth generation andI expected that after I
graduated from college I wouldgo home and take over the family
farm.
Well, it got to be Januarybefore my graduation in May of

(03:55):
college and my phone rang and itwas a United States Senator's
office and he asked me if Iwould be interested in going to
work for him to help in thestate, but to help create the
next farm bill, but to also behis eyes and ears while he was
in Washington DC.
And I just didn't think thatcall was going to happen again
and I knew that the farm wouldbe there.

(04:15):
So I said you know what I'mgoing to take that job.
I knew I would regret it if Isaid no, no-transcript.

(04:49):
The political realm back thenwasn't nearly what it is now.
I was really proud to say Iworked for a United States
Senator back in the day and I'mstill proud to say I did, but it
wasn't the atmosphere we havenow and we don't need to get
into that, but I just I feellike it's important I we have
now and we don't need to getinto that, but I just I feel
like it's important.
I was really really proud ofthe work I was able to do there.
Going to work for a bank, I gotto learn about profit and loss

(05:14):
from other people and goodbusiness and bad business, and
it taught me a whole bunch aboutwho really had money and who
didn't, who looked like they hadmoney but didn't, who looked
like they didn't have money butdid so.
Know.
So it all these things and itand it and it showed you, look,
you've got to ask some questionsbefore you go ahead and make a
judgment on whether somebody iscredit worthy.
Well, that translates intoeverything, and so I really took
that with me into my next role,which, when I was in banking, I

(05:37):
had a private client group andone of my one of my uh private
client members worked at apublic company.
He recruited me into a publiccompany called Raven and I spent
15 years there doing threedifferent jobs, but I ended
there after six years in chargeof mergers and acquisitions for
our company and we transacted atthe very end of 2021.

(05:57):
And I separated from thecompany then in February of 2022
.
And I launched Normal 40.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Dude, that's amazing, and you said a couple of things
in there that I'm reallycurious to how you develop that
mindset about making decisionsthat in the future that you knew
that you potentially wouldregret, and then you just
decided to jump right in.
I one of the words that youalways use, and I love, is on
mission, because we use that, Ithink, within the military as

(06:26):
well.
So here you are.
I don't know how old you were,we'll just say 18, 19 year old
kid growing up on the farm inthe Midwest, and the US senator
calls you to help chasesignificance, not success.
And putting you in that mindset, what, what helped drive you in
making that decision to hey,let's go chase this hard thing.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah, great question.
I wish I could look back andsay that I was wise enough at
you know, just as a freshcollege graduate, to say boy,
this would be significant.
No man, it was cool, it wasgoing to work for a Senator and
it was what I should do next.
But your question is this howdid I weigh that?
And I'll tell you, one of thehardest things, um, that I've

(07:10):
done in my life to this point,joshua, is to dis to go home and
tell my dad, after it had beenunderstood from my siblings
generationally, the familybusiness, the, the farm that was
bought and lost in the thirtiesand bought back I was going to
take it over.
That was the expectation.
So it was a hard decision forme to say am I going to go home

(07:34):
and am I going to take over thefamily farm or am I going to
answer this call?
And I looked at it and Iwrestled with this a long time.
But the very central questionthat I came back to again and
again and again, at threedifferent points in my life, was
this If I get one, two, threeor four years older than this or

(07:55):
past this moment, and I don'tdo it, if I pass up this
opportunity to go work for a USsenator.
Will I regret it?
And my answer was yes.
I couldn't imagine sitting in atractor cab for 10 hours a day
wondering what would havehappened if I had just said yes.
It would have.

(08:15):
It would have gnawed at me andeaten at me my entire life.
So I had to say yes, I had togo figure it out if I was, if,
if I was capable of doing it.
So it was.
It was the central questionthat I used every time I've made
a major life decision Will Iregret it if I don't?

Speaker 1 (08:34):
I love that man.
It's just a framework, I thinkevolves around the core values
of who.
You are right and I think oneof the most essential things
within life now, especially whenwe go chase hard things, is
being able to embrace that levelof risk.
There there's always atrade-off and I you know spoiler
alert it's one of your, yourbooks that we're going to get

(08:55):
into.
But I love how that beautifullytransitions, cause now I can
see that thread that's connectedyou through your entire life
that now has inspired you towhere you are right now of
writing a book and being asuccessful entrepreneur.
But you have such a uniqueperspective, I think, on
leadership of being in a verysuccessful business Raven

(09:18):
Industries and thentransitioning at the height of
your career when everyone elselooking outside in would like,
hey, this dude's highlysuccessful, he has everything,
he has the car, he has the money, he has the house, he has all
of those things.
But you internally were nothappy.
You said it so nonchalantly,but you were in three jobs in

(09:41):
Raven Industries sointernational sales, vice
president of businessdevelopment and the CEO of the
senior director of corporatedevelopment within there.
So you continue to climb thatladder.
What I would love to know youknow, in the 12 years that you
worked in Raven industry, whatallowed you to continue to climb
and gain more influence andauthority.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
A couple of things.
One, I had a boss who believedin me.
Two, I always I never, everallowed myself to leave to
interpretation or to question myintegrity and the ability of
anybody in that company to trustme, that company to trust me.

(10:26):
And so when you work through acompany and you just work hard,
you're going to go a long ways.
When you work hard and you havean advocate, somebody who is on
your team, on your side,willing to help you which I had
that is super helpful.
When you do work, that issurprisingly different, not even

(10:48):
better.
When you just approach somethingthat's been done the same way,
differently, you put your ownflair on it.
Now, this isn't to say you makethis huge leap and you do
something that's going to getyou in trouble because it's too
big.
No, just within what you cancontrol, wherever you are,
whether you're an entry-levelposition or you're the executive

(11:08):
in charge of mergers andacquisitions, which runs the
span of my 15 years there, whenyou were just figuring out how
you could approach a problemdifferently and provide a
perspective that was differentall of a sudden it shapes, it
establishes you as somebodywho's willing to do things that
are approached from thestandpoint of curiosity rather

(11:30):
than conviction.
And look, we can parse thatapart if you want, because
that's a big mind shift.
But when you approach whatyou're dealing with on a
day-to-day basis and this istrue in business, it's true in
your home, it's true in yourpolitics, it's true in your
religion, it's true in yourrelationship with your neighbor,
it's true in all aspects whenyou approach that situation with

(11:51):
your curiosity rather than yourconviction of what you assume
they are going through, what youassume they are doing and what
you assume is right and wrong inthis black and white, it opens
up this entire new aperture.
So now back to your questionhow did you have success?
I had an advocate that wouldtake a bet on me.
I did things my own way thatwas always in alignment with

(12:14):
where the company was going, andI worked as hard or harder than
anyone else around me, andthose three ingredients were
enough to keep propelling methrough the company.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
I love that.
It's so simple from thestandpoint do the work, do the
work.
You're going to have theintegrity or the character build
up to where people are going tobelieve in you, that you're
going to have advocates on yourteam and then always be in
alignment.
Never have anyone question yourintegrity.
It's simple and I absolutelylove it, brother.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
You're going to love this too, man.
So I didn't serve.
So first of all, let me say toyou thank you for your service,
and I mean that.
But on my, on my, when I wasthe both the president of a
aerospace and defensecontracting division in our
company, which I did for sixyears, and when I was running
mergers and acquisitions, on thetop of my whiteboard I had the
definition of a campaign andacquisitions.

(13:07):
On the top of my whiteboard Ihad the definition of a campaign
.
And the definition of acampaign is different things for
different people.
If you're a politician, itmeans one thing, but if you are
a member of the United StatesArmy, it means something
different.
My definition read this aconnected series of operations
designed to yield a particularresult.
Just think about that.
Break that down, for whereyou're at, I knew what our

(13:27):
campaign was.
I knew that sometimes I had towrite it.
I knew sometimes I had toinspire people to it and I knew
that it had to fit within themission of the company.
A connected series of operations.
Well, no matter where you're atin your company, no matter
where you're at in whatever youdo through the course of your
day, a connected series of're at, in whatever you do in your,
through the course of your day,a connected series of operations

(13:49):
, their operations, their thingsthat have to be done, and they
have to connect and why?
Because they are designed.
Designed mean that's withintent, there's a strategy,
there's a plan to yield aparticular result.
Everything, every word in thatdefinition has a meaning and
it's powerful.
So the campaign and I wouldread that every morning when I

(14:12):
came in what are my connectedseries of operations and what is
the particular result I need todesign them towards?
And it really those thingsreally just provided this
clarity every single day that Iwould come in and execute
towards, and it was superhelpful to me and I hope that

(14:33):
somebody's jotting this downwho's listening because, man, it
really does help narrow yourfocus on what's the most
important thing I need toaccomplish today.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
So you talk about jotting down notes.
I've already.
I already have two pages ofnotes.
I'm trying to feverishly keepup with you and I love that.
So my wife always gets madbecause it's just like you say.
I love that way too much onyour podcast.
But that's, that's who I am, soI'm not going to change it.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
Dude, you do you.
I love it too, man.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
What you talk about.
There is exactly what we dowithin the military space, but
it's depending on the level ofauthority or the hierarchy of
the organization.
We all have a mission, we allhave a vision that we're trying
to achieve, which is thatmission of the how, and then we
have the key tasks that areassociated with that, like the
threads along the way with adesired end state, and that's

(15:25):
how we essentially boil down.
Going into a campaign of howyou talked about.
Each individual organization,all the way down to the platoon
level, should essentially havekey tasks that feed into that
mission, and when you can dothat and you can create that
synergy, you're all workingtowards the same desired end
state and vision.
That's powerful and I love howyou made that connection to a

(15:49):
campaign equals clarity and Ithink that's the end state is.
We're trying to create claritynot only in like a business, but
I think that leadership isholistic.
You can't lead other peopleunless you lead yourself and you
fill your own cup up.
So that's a beautiful point,man.
The next point that I wouldlove to try to get to is walking

(16:10):
through still your leadershipjourney.
Working in Raven Industries,what was some of the most
challenging aspects in terms ofleadership that you ran across.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
In terms of just things that I would wrestle with
, yeah that you would internallywrestle with.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
That maybe brought you additional like fear and
anxiety.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
When I came into Raven I didn't have a lot of
experience leading teams yet.
I led a couple of differenttimes.
I led a small team in the bank,you know a handful, five or six
people.
And I led a small team as amember of the United States
Senate and a Senate staff, justto be clear.
And so when I came into Raven Iimmediately on day one had

(16:49):
still a small team, but a biggerteam than what I was used to.
It was probably 15 people and Iremember from that point on I
thought that kind of my job was.
As I was working to establishmyself, I felt like my job was
probably to show how smart I wasand how I understood the
mission and how I had controlover all of the things that I

(17:12):
should have control over.
And I had my first job in Ravenonly two years.
I was international salesdirector and I would travel the
world setting up distributionaround the world and it was
fantastic.
I was gone a lot.
And the CEO then moved me to bepresident of one of our
operating divisions, anaerospace and defense
contracting division.
And now I went overnight from ateam of about 15 to 20 to a

(17:36):
team of about 350.
And, looking back, it's one ofthese things.
I always said yes, and then Iknew I would figure it out.
When the CEO said I would likeyou to do this, the answer was
immediately yeah, I got this,give me the ball, I can't wait.
I got it and I'd had a fairnumber of successes through my
career at that point, and so theanswer, of course, was yes, and
I was thrust into this positionwhere I had hundreds of people

(17:59):
reporting to me from all overthe world and I came out of a
industry I knew, which wastechnology in agriculture to
aerospace and defense.
I didn't speak military jargon.
I didn't understand the strawsand stripes on uniforms.
I didn't.
I was a South Dakota farm kid.
And now here I am, I'm leadingpeople who came from uniform,

(18:23):
and I had all of this to learn.
But here was my problem.
I still told myself I had to bethe guy who had the answers.
I had to be the one who knewhow to cast a vision and be
convicted.
Lead with conviction over whatwas right.
I loved working for people whohad conviction.

(18:44):
I wanted to be a leader who hadconviction, because conviction
is powerful.
Conviction inspires people tofollow.
But if you operate only from aplace of conviction the second
time I'm going to say this onthis podcast already if you
operate from a place ofconviction purely and you don't
allow in curiosity, if you don'tlearn how to lead with your

(19:07):
ears as much as your mouth, youset yourself up for some very,
very dangerous outcomes.
And I walked headlong into onethat came up and smacked me
right in the face because I wasmore interested in leaning into
my conviction than I was intoleading into my curiosity and

(19:29):
allowing, allowing myself evento rethink decisions I had made
once, because conviction wouldsay no, you made this decision,
move forward.
Curiosity would have said well,you made that decision, but
it's not working, maybe weshould tweak it.
And it wasn't until I literallystepped on a rake and I got
smashed in the face that Irealized that okay, wait a

(19:50):
minute.
Conviction only gets you so far.
Then it gets you in trouble.
And so that's where I realizedI got to.
There's a pivot here in how I'mgoing to choose to lead.
And I made that toughtransition.
But it came after I had what Ideemed to be a fairly public
failure that I had to endureemotionally and personally and

(20:12):
all the things, that spiritually, all the things, so that I
would say, without question wasmy hardest lesson learned.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
First of all, that's crazy, you know, going from
leading 15 people to over 300.
And I put myself in that shoebecause I've led organizations
close to 300 people and I've ledorganizations to 40.
And that time has been six toeight years.
So I had time to mature andalso to get mentorship from
people at that next level up,always get that next level up.

(20:41):
And I still didn't feel that Iwas 100% ready when I was
finally put into those roles.
So I could only imagine someonethat leads a team of 15, highly
competent then jumping in aseat leading over 300 people.
Because I know that that mindsetshift that you're talking about
and I call that really missioncommand it's the ability to

(21:03):
learn how to delegate down tolower levels and allowing people
to really lean into theirstrengths and letting them run
with it, like how you talkedabout get the football and go
with it.
And I had a boss tell me onetime, colonel Landers, we were
getting ready to do a live fireexercise and he talked about
Josh, you need to operate withmission command so much that you

(21:26):
delegate to the point that youphysically feel uncomfortable.
And when you delegate to thatpoint of where you physically
feel uncomfortable.
You know that you're doing itright and that that is a tough
mindset shift to do, andespecially how quick you did it.
So that's awesome and I thinkfeeling is not a bad thing.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
You know it certainly shaped me.
I tell you what that is superbadvice.
I mean, one of the hardestthings you'll have to learn to
do in your leadership journey isto learn how to delegate and to
do it.
And the mind shift.
I don't know how much you wantto talk about this, but here's
the thing I learned aboutdelegation and your advice is
sound.
I hope everybody wrote thatdown.

(22:07):
It needs to be awkwardlyuncomfortable to delegate.
You need to do it to a placewhere it's awkwardly
uncomfortable.
And um and the.
The people who I admired most inin business as the longer I was
there were the people who werewildly successful through

(22:29):
delegation.
I used to be inspired andimpressed by the people who just
got shit done and they couldjust power through and look, the
more you give me, the more I'lldo.
And yeah, that is impressive,that's an impressive workhorse.
But I became over time moreimpressed by the people who are
really effectively delegating tothis awkward extent not not

(22:52):
throwing work over the transomand saying I'd get this done,
but delegating, supporting,mentoring, grooming, holding
accountable holding awkwardlyaccountable back to that word to
this place where when they gotit wrong, he told them or she
told them and then over timewhat they were doing is they
were making leaders and and itstarted these little pods of

(23:16):
great delegators.
In our company of thousandsthere were just a few places
that were spinning out thesegreat leaders and so when the
company needed somebody, theywent to these little pods.
And so eventually you companyneeded somebody.
They went to these little podsand so eventually you wanted to
be on that person's team becausethey were creating leaders.
Now they're holding youaccountable.
There were some awkwardconversations, there was some
long nights because you didn'tdo it right the first time but

(23:38):
you were prepared when you gottapped and I learned how to do
that over time.
But it came through the abilityto learn how to delegate and
it's not natural, you're notborn with it.
You've got to learn how todelegate.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
Two things right there that I love and we can go
wherever we want becauseeverything you talk is fire and
I love it.
So delegation allows oneexponential growth because now
you're working together as ateam, so where one could do
something, there's always acapacity.
Like Elon, if I give you a taskand I keep giving you more stuff

(24:16):
, at a certain point you'regoing to hit your limit, where
your cup is going to overflail.
And then we talk about rubberand glass balls.
Rubber balls can bounce andit's OK because we can pick them
back up.
But when a glass ball breaksit's shattered and the amount of
work to get that back to afunctioning state is almost
impossible.
But when we learn to delegate,then we can give I call them

(24:36):
rocks, we can give those rocksto everyone on our team so those
rubber balls never drop, andthen it's just like a beautiful
orchestra of where you cancontinue to grow and can
continue to grow and there'sreally no limits associated to
it.
And another point that I justrealized when you said it the
second benefit is creatingleaders, and it's a pipeline a

(24:57):
hundred percent of it's apipeline, if done well of where
your organization not only isdelegating and growing, but
you're also creating the leadersfor tomorrow that is going to
allow for that sustained growthto continue.
Boom, you just blew my mind.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, and you see it, if you go back, if the people
listening just go back, go backto any business, any place
you've ever worked, and you'llidentify the people.
They're probably the people whoannoy you.
At first, it's like this persondoesn't do anything.
They delegate everything.
And now there's two types ofdelegators.
There's the ones who just givework away and they don't follow

(25:32):
up and tell it to do, and thenthey get pissed off when it's
not right and nobody likes thatperson.
And then there's the coachdelegator, the one who doesn't
say, hey, hit a home run andI'll see you at home plate.
The one who says, no, you'reholding the bat wrong.
No, you don't swing at thatpitch.
No, you, when you're down inthe count, the one who coaches
you through it and holds youaccountable to it, is the one

(25:55):
who delegates best, so thatthey're building trust in what
they can give you.
And and we can all look backand identify well, yeah, the
success I had, the boss Iactually loved most wasn't the
one who certainly wasn't the onewho let me get off easy, and it
certainly wasn't the one whojust gave me work and then, when
it wasn't right, let me hangout to dry.
It was the one who challengedme, coached me, mentored me and

(26:18):
showed me that I was capable ofbeing better than I thought.
Those are incredible mentors,and it's done through delegation
.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
That's where I want.
I always love when I fallwithin organizations.
I kind of call it stretching me, pushing me outside of my
comfort zone.
For right now I work inacquisitions within special
operations command, and I haveso much authority and
responsibility.
It's incredible, it really,really really is.

(26:47):
But if I were in any otherorganization I would not have
that same level of just autonomy.
And it's really beautiful tohave that, because then now I am
forced, I have so much to do,but I need to rely on my team,
because if I don't rely on myteam, then there's no way
possible that I'm going to getit done.
And another thing that learned,I think, about delegation, is

(27:08):
there certain tasks, as as theleader we'll say, ceo that or,
you know, chief operationofficer that you cannot delegate
because it's so uniquely yours.
So you have to also be careful,I think, within delegation,
delegating the tasks that shouldbe and could be completed by
someone else, but understandingthat there are certain things

(27:30):
that you just cannot delegatebecause they're so unique to
your responsibilities and yourduty.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, here's the analogy I used when I was
mentoring young hopefully,future executives.
I said imagine yourself as amusician, but different than
that.
Imagine yourself as anorchestra conductor.
Different than that, imagineyourself as an orchestra
conductor.
Now, an orchestra conductor cango to the back, and he can.
He or she can play the drums.
She can come up and play theviolin.

(27:56):
She can go over and play theoboe.
She can go over and grab atrombone or a tuba.
She can play the clarinet.
She can play the French horn.
She can play whatever she wantsto play, but not nearly as good
as the person who's sittingfirst, second or third chair.
Her job is to make sure she isputting the right people in
first, second and third chair toplay their piece of the music

(28:17):
beautifully, so that everythingcomes together.
Your job as a conductor bringeveryone together, bring them in
and take them out as they'resupposed to go.
So you've got to have anunderstanding of what every
instrument in your purview does,where they come, where they go,
where they get louder, wherethey get softer, where they're
out front, where they're in back, and then it's your job to
stand up front and help them allfind unity and uh, and that

(28:43):
requires accountability.
It requires one-on-ones off tothe side when the whole, when
the whole orchestra isn't there.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
It requires all of the things you need, but that is
kind of the job of the leaderat the time, at at any given
point in the in, to verify andI've learned that process the
hard way several times is thatwhen you do delegate, you have

(29:08):
to be able to stay in tune withthat individual, and that's the
cost of leadership.
Leadership's not easy becauseit's a people-driven business.
Leadership is a people-driventopic and if you're not close to
the people then I personallythink that you'll fail at
leadership, because people areabsolutely essential.
And I love how you talk aboutthat orchestra.

(29:31):
I always go back to Symphony ofDestruction by Megadeth.
It's just like that In themilitary.
We always have these differentweapons and there's a desired
end state that we want to haveon that objective and you have
to figure out all right, whattype of munition or what type of
armament do we need to overlayto get those desired end states?
But it's the same is true withlike people.

(29:51):
You're just delegating kind ofthe point of effects that you
want on the target.
And if you can change yourmindset and think about people
in that way, then that's when weallow for exponential growth.
And when were you and yourcompany working with the PGA
system?
Because I want to bring thisstory up too.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
All right.
So, uh, it was 2009, the veryend of 2009,.
We were a little small,nondescript, lighter than air
company uh in the Midwest, and I, you know I, I understand who
I'm talking to, so I forgive meif I get some of this wrong, but

(30:28):
there was certainly in theater.
This was the height of roadsidebomb attacks throughout
Afghanistan and Iraq, and therewas nothing really that could be
done about it short of flyinghelicopters 24-7 over the
roadways.
Well, that's just not, that'sjust not feasible.

(30:49):
And so there was this huge needand there was this compelling
needs request that was issued bythe office of the secretary of
defense, and our company stoodup and said we'll try it, and we
provided a solution that wasfantastic.
In what normally would havetaken 10 years to develop, for
us to do it in about six monthsor less was fantastic.

(31:09):
Now, when you do that, it'sgoing to have some problems, but
it's also going to do itsmission, and its mission, its
connected series of operations,was to save lives, and so we did
the best to field those, and Itook over that division.
About three months after we gotthat first contract, we'd
delivered one unit um to theoffice of the secretary of

(31:32):
defense at the time when I camein and took over as president of
that division, and I led ituntil 20, uh, the end, the first
of 2016, the end of 2015.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
So we use that almost every single day.
When we were in Afghanistan.
I remember the first time thatI pulled into RC South I say
pull in, when I flew in on aCH-47.
And I was looking around.
It's like almost like Mars,right, like everything's, like
this weird red clay, weirdmountains everywhere.
It's just a different world.

(32:01):
If you've never been there, ifyou ever go to El Paso Texas, it
looks a lot like that.
Been there, if you ever go toEl Paso Texas, it looks a lot
like that.
But when I saw these balloonslike floating through, I thought
that I was on an alien planetbecause I had no idea what they
were.
But then I grew to love thembecause.
So basically what it is, it's atethered blimp with about a $10

(32:22):
million very sophisticatedcamera inside that, if I
remember right, could allow youto zoom up to, was it five
kilometers Somewhere in therewith good clarity.
We would use it for counter IEDdeterrent all the time and with
great effects.
We would use it for our actualmaneuver operations because we

(32:43):
could then overlay those.
So we would have different copsor compounds and we could
overlay those PGIS cameras towhere we didn't really
necessarily have any dead spaceoutside of like our organic UAV
platforms that we had.
I loved it.
Then there's a crazy story Itold you I was going to share so
evergreen chopper, whichessentially is just a civilian

(33:04):
bird that will come in and outof cops, was coming in, the
balloon was fully up, I think,whatever altitude that could be.
The propellers from theevergreen chopper come in and
cut the cord and this peachescamera goes floating off with
the whole balloon.
It ends up going like, I thinkalmost like 50, 60 miles and our

(33:25):
mission was was hey, goretrieve that thing.
So we basically shot down oneof your balloons, uh, because we
didn't want the camera to fallwithin the, uh, the hands.
But that was the craziestmission I think I've ever been
on of like, hey, go go shootdown a balloon, okay, sold, I'll
go do that I.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
So here's what.
What's funny, I remember that Iwas on, I was on the calls.
So because we were the, ourteam was on daily calls, same
time, same day, with people whoare in theater and uh, and I
remember when that happened andsomebody, somebody I didn't
realize it was a civilianhelicopter, I thought it was a

(34:04):
military one, doesn't matter.
The result was the same Away itwent and you guys had to
scramble to go get it.
But that's exactly right.
I mean the payloads on there.
I have no idea if they're stillclassified, but at the time
we're highly classified as towhat was on there, for all the
obvious reasons, and so to makesure that we, the United States
government, retrieved it wassuper important because the

(34:28):
payloads on there, yes, therewas EOIR visibility vision, but
there was more than that thatwas on there and it was really
important that we get that backand that it not fall in the
wrong hands.
But that was just a day in thelife for you guys back then.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah, it was like we would do two to three missions a
day, but I really mean thatthat system was integral in the
success of everyday missionsthat we had, because it also
saved us the ability to so wedidn't have to go out and do a
counter or a presence patrol tokeep a lock open.
We could just scan that with apreset screening criteria of

(35:06):
making sure that a lock was openor a passage, which was awesome
, yeah.
So thank you, and I wanted tomake sure we brought that up
because I genuinely appreciatethat.
So, kind of walking back intoyou know your leadership journey
, you make it to the height ofyour career and then you decide,
hey, this isn't for me.

(35:26):
Walk me through how you madethat decision.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
I was 46 at the time, maybe 45.
But in my mid 40s I was leadingmergers and acquisitions for
the same company.
I'd moved on from leading thisaerospace and defense
contracting division that youand I were just talking about
and I was now a corporateexecutive, leading mergers and
acquisitions, and I had achievedmore than I ever thought I

(35:54):
would achieve, Josh.
I had just done really well andI'm not saying that to toot my
horn, I'm just saying it justkind of happened and I would
come into my office and I nevercame in and I was never unhappy.
I was never.
I was.
I didn't have this place whereI was fed up or tired of of a
situation.
I was never trying to escapesomething.

(36:16):
But I would come into my officeand I would leave my nice house
and I would drive my nice carinto my nice office and I'd sit
down at my nice desk on theexecutive level and I would open
up my computer and I would feelthis thing in my gut and I
would think to myself well, isthis it?
I'm 45.
If I'm going to work for thenext 10 or 15 or 20 years, is

(36:38):
this it?
Is this what I have to give tothe world.
And then I would slam mycomputer shut and I'd get
frustrated with myself and belike, well, if this is it,
shouldn't I just be happy?
Damn it, Shouldn't I just givethanks for the fact that I've
got my health, I've got a greatfamily, I have the nice house,
the nice car, the nice office,blah, blah, blah.
And shouldn't I just be happy?

(36:58):
And then I'd guilt myself intosaying suck it up and go back to
work.
And I would, and about 90 dayslater, guess what?
Same thing.
And so there was somethingburbling in me, and I wasn't
trying to escape something, Iwasn't trying to quit, but
something was trying to wake meup.
And right before COVID, Idecided that one of the things I

(37:19):
need to do is I need to figuremyself out.
I need to figure out what'sgoing on.
And so I decided that I wasgoing to go get my executive
coaching certification.
And so in March of 2020, likeliterally weeks before COVID I
went to Sarasota, Florida, and'mgoing to use this inside of my
company to continue to groom andbuild and grow the next

(37:41):
generation of leaderships insideof my company, next generation
of leaders inside of my company.
And then, at the same time, Ireached out to some bank
presidents because I came fromthat world and I said, hey, if
you've got some high achievers,let me just meet with them for

(38:03):
free and I'll just be theirexecutive coach, just because I
enjoy it.
Well then COVID hit and Irealized that hey, look, I
really enjoy this.
I'm really and I'm pretty goodat it.
I'm good at mentoring people,and so all of this was swirling
around.
I didn't ever expect it to bepart of my real big future.
I just knew I wanted tocontinue to do it inside of my
company.

(38:24):
Well then, fast forward intomiddle of 2021 and Raven my
company instead of being thatguy in charge of mergers and
acquisitions coming in, I becameone of the team members who are
in charge of mergers andacquisitions going out.
We were being acquired by CNHI,which ultimately happened, and
so when that transactionhappened, and just before it, I

(38:46):
was busy.
I didn't have time to thinkabout what's next.
But as it looked eminent and wewere months out from closing, I
didn't expect that I was goingto have the option to say
usually the sell side M&A guy,we're gone, the acquiring
company kicks us out becausethey've got people like us on
their team already.
They don't need more of us, sowe get let go, and that's what I
was expecting to happen.
But Case was great.

(39:06):
They were fantastic.
They offered me a job, theyasked me to stay, they gave me a
three-year sign-on.
If I stayed on for three years,it's a big bonus.
And so they made my decisionharder.
But I ultimately decided it's mytime to go.
And, Josh, I used the exactsame criteria we talked about
earlier.
I thought I can stay with thiscompany and I can do the things
they're asking me to do, and Ithink I'd be good at it.

(39:27):
But if I don't do that, if Idon't go see what it is I should
do next, if I don't separatefrom this and really get serious
about who I'm here to be next,I might never do it.
And instead of starting when I'm46, maybe I won't start until
I'm 56.
And I just decided that Iwasn't going to tolerate that.

(39:48):
I made the hard decision ofleaving and I turned.
I can tell you the whole storyof how that came about if you
care to know it.
But at the end of the day, Idecided that it was time to bet
on me.
I would regret it if I didn'tdo it then and I separated and I
didn't know what I was going tostart.
I didn't know what business wasgoing to be.
I didn't know if anybody wouldshow up and fast forward two
years.
It hasn't even been two yearssince I've left, but it's coming
up on it.
By the time this, by the timeyou put this out, it'll be my

(40:10):
two year anniversary and, uh,and I just couldn't be happier
with the decision I made.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Team.
Let's take a quick break fromthis episode and I want to share
an additional leadershipresource with you, and that is
one-on-one leadership coachingthrough McMillian Leadership
Coaching.
So what do I do?
I help leaders discover theirpurpose, create a long-term
growth plan and take inspiredaction.
I believe everything rises andfalls on leadership and,

(40:37):
regardless of where you are inlife, one fact is true you are a
leader of others, you are aleader of your family and, most
importantly, you are a leader ofyourself.
To lead others well, thatstarts by leading yourself well.
If you want to learn more, youcan go to
mcmillianleadershipcoachingcomand schedule a free call today.

(40:58):
Back to the episode dot com andschedule a free call today.
Back to the episode.
That's amazing, brother.
Every time that I hear someonewho who does a major change in
their life like that, it bringsme a little bit of anxiety.
You know to be honest with youbecause I've been in the
military since 2008.
At this point, I have beeninstitutionalized you can use
another word if you want forthat but that's inspiring, that

(41:22):
you take a bet on yourself and Ialways said this in the
military and I genuinely mean itthe day that I show up to work
and what I do is no longer fun.
Is the day that I will get outof the military, because, at
least from my standpoint,military leaders have to have
that emotional intrinsicmotivation.

(41:42):
And you had that same type, Ithink, of spark within your own
personal life is like, hey, isthere more to life?
Am I called to do somethinggreater than what I'm doing
right now?
Am I happy and am I actuallyimproving the organization?
And I'm sure you were, but youweren't happy.
And then you were able toidentify that and then go take a

(42:04):
bet on yourself, which is Ihonestly, look, hearing your
story, I think COVID wasprobably a blessing, where I
know it wasn't a blessing to theworld but for you.
It gave you the space and thetime probably to think.
And then that chain of eventsof where your company was
getting acquired it almost justsounds like it was meant to be.
You were supposed to break awayand then you start this thing

(42:25):
called Normal 40.
What was the spark behind that?

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Here's the spark the day I left it was February 1st
was my last day at Raven, and soI woke up the next morning.
First time in my life well,since I was well, probably the
first time since I lived at thefarm I didn't have W-2 income.
Well, I guess I didn't.
My whole point is it's thefirst time in my professional
life where I didn't have a W-2income.
And I woke up and I wasn't surehow I was going to feel about

(42:51):
that because I didn't have aplan.
And I woke up that morningearly, like I usually did, and I
opened my eyes and I realized,you know what?
My bed is soft, my wife isstill here, the carpet was soft,
the bathroom was warm, myrunning shoes were comfortable.
I went for a run that morningand it wasn't a release of

(43:13):
stress, it was an expression ofjoy, and I had this wonderful
ease about my decision.
And I realized in that momentthat whatever, whatever I do,
I'm.
I don't know what it's going tobe, I don't know what it's
going to look like, but it'sgoing to, it's going to be me,
it's going to be mine, it'sgoing to be pure.
And I went to LinkedIn and Ihad a small following, a really

(43:35):
small following, probably six or700 at the time, and I wrote
that that is essentially my postwas some version of.
I woke up, the carpet was soft,the bedroom was warm, the run
was great and I'm going to befine.
I'm going to figure this out.
And in that moment, josh, myinbox blew up from people from
around the world who said I feelthe same way.

(43:55):
How did you know this was yourtime?
How did you know you'd be okay?
What are you going to do next?
How are you going to make money?
What'd your wife say?
What'd your boss say?
And I realized wait a minute.
There's a whole bunch of peoplewho feel exactly as I was
feeling before I left.
They're wrestling with all thethings I'd been wrestling with
for the last two or three years.
They just don't have anyone totalk to.

(44:16):
So I said, okay, I'm just goingto keep leaning into this.
I'm going to keep showing upcurious.
Remember that lesson Convictionversus curiosity.
I'm like I don't know what thisis.
I have no conviction over whythese people are showing up.
I'm just going to be curiousabout what's going on.
And I just kept showing up forthat person who was me two years
ago and I kept writing about itand, and it just kept

(44:37):
presenting to me what I shoulddo next and fast forward.
Two years later, we've gotnormal 40.
But I want to say something andthis is really important.
So who shows up to me?
Who shows up here?
Who are these people?
And I've had 538, 540 freerambles with individuals from
around the world over the courseof the last 18 months.

(44:58):
You can go onto my website andyou can book time to chat with
me for free, and I've talked tothe most amazing people from
around the world.
But after 500 conversations,you pick up on some things that
people have in common and one ofthe things I ask every single
person I've talked to when theyfind me.
I'm like all right, you're here, you're here for a reason.

(45:20):
Tell me what you feel.
And they all use the samelanguage to tell me what, the
how they feel.
They say I feel like I'm onautopilot.
Things just aren't challengingfor me.
I'm not doing bad work, it'sjust I'm not doing great work
anymore.
It's just kind of I'm onautopilot, but I feel frustrated
.
I feel controlled.
I don't have control over myown calendar.
Things are uncertain.

(45:40):
I feel lost, stressed, annoyed.
I feel alone, paralyzed, I'mgetting stale.
I feel like I've worked myselfinto a box.
I feel anxious to do somethingelse.
I feel caged, discontent, Imiss my family and I feel a
little bit of shame and guiltfor wanting something other than
what I have, because I justspent the last 20 years getting
right here.
Who am I to think that I shouldwant something else?

(46:01):
It's unfair to my family, it'sunfair to my team, and so they
carry around this shame andguilt for wanting something
other than what they have.
So what do they do?
Nothing.
They tolerate it, they stamp itdown, tamp it down and they
live with it.
And so then I I let me just addone more, one more layer onto
this.
I'm like well, who are thesepeople?

(46:22):
Cause it can't be everyone.
What are they?
What do they have in common?
What are the common themes?
And here's, here's the commonthemes.
They tend to be people who areat a high level in their
professional game, leaders andexecutives.
They tend to be people who'vededicated their whole life to
something specific.
They tend to be the providersfor their home.

(46:42):
They're the moneymakers or theproviders and are the problem
solvers in their home.
They've got good marriages, butnot great.
There's room for improvement.
They've lived their life by thebook.
They've checked all the boxes,they've done what they're
supposed to do, they've been ontime, they've worked hard and
they've outperformed their ownexpectation from only five years
ago.
They're relentlessly loyal andthey've always done what's

(47:04):
expected of them.
And here's the last thing I'llsay about this group of people.
They tend to fall into fivedifferent boxes Six physicians
and people in healthcare becausethey decided when they were 18
that they want to be a doctor,career, military because they
decided at 18 they're going toenlist Attorneys.
Because they decided at age 18that they want to go to school
and then law school, accountingpartners because they decided at

(47:26):
18 that they want to get into,go to work for one of the big
three Business owners.
Because they decided young thatthey're going to dedicate their
life to a business.
And executives because theyworked their whole life to get
to exactly where they're at.
And now they get there andthey're like holy cow 20 years
later.
I don't.
I'm not so sure that this isexactly what I want anymore, but
they feel powerless to doanything about it.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
I think that that is that's so powerful and I
underline the word guilt, likeall those feelings that lead up
to that moment that who are weto decide to go do something
that we feel that we should bedoing or that we want to be
doing because we worked ourentire lives up to this moment?

(48:08):
Well, I always try to think ofit like this is that maybe at
that point you you've built yourentire life up to this moment
for the next chapter in yourlife?
There's always other chaptersin our lives.
I had to learn that the hardway.
I had to kind of reinventmyself, being an infantry
officer and now transitioninginto acquisitions and having no

(48:29):
clue about anything still withinthe scope of the Army, but
understanding that, hey, there'schapters in our lives, there's
seasons of our lives and it'sokay that we reinvent ourselves
and everything that I did in thepast is just an opportunity to
show up as present, as full aspossible now and to continue to
do things that bring me joy, soI can bring joy to the world, to

(48:51):
the family of others, because Ireally think that that's what
leads to burnout, that anxiety,fear, the guilt that you talked
about being stressed, becausethen you find yourself one day
older and nothing to show for it.
And then, over time, but youlook back, you're five years
older and all of those dreams,hopes, aspirations, shift, they,

(49:13):
they, they manipulatethemselves into, you know,
almost fear, dread, anxiety,because you know that you're
never going to want to do thosethings.
I love people like you whoembrace those and then found the
drive to go, do it and thenhelp other people do it.
And I would love now to kind ofjust transition to your book,

(49:35):
the Trade, moving from the lifeyou have to the life you want.
And, by the way, man, you'vedone so much.
So 2021, 2022 is when you kindof separated from the regular
job side to now being anentrepreneur.
You wrote a book, you have apodcast, you have a successful

(49:55):
coaching business.
So let me just ask you how didyou do so much in a short period
of time?

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Well, look, looking back, it looks like a lot.
It always looks like a lotthrough the rear view mirror and
it looks impossible.
Looking forward and that's it.
That's a key point in my book,actually is never underestimate
how different your life can lookin one year from now.
But here's the thing you haveto actually start Now.
This is important.
I quit and then I started, andsome people do that.
Some people do that on theirown accord, some people get let

(50:27):
go and they have no choice butto then start something else.
But you don't have to do itthat way.
The whole premise is this youcan start from wherever you are.
If you have one week, one month, one year, one decade left of
whatever chapter you're workingon, if you've got another dance,
start working on it, becauseyou'll be amazed at how
different your life can look inone year from now.

(50:48):
So you know, I, looking back,it just like well, look, I'm a,
I'm a businessman, I'm a hardworker.
This, this is how it's supposedto be.
It's just, you make progressevery day, but certainly, I
think, from the outside, lookingin, it's like well, boy, I can
never achieve that much, and Ijust want to remind people
that's baloney.
You absolutely can, anybody can.
But the key difference is Istarted, I actually started and

(51:14):
I'm doing it, and that is sodifferent than just thinking
about how different it could beor might be.
But you actually have to start.
And, by the way, one more thing, and this is really important
starting is easy.
You just have to try something,just do something.
You don't have to quit in orderto start, but you do have to
start if you ever want to quit.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
I think a testament to that is our first podcast.
I just tried it.
It failed.
But hey, I continue to keepgoing and keep moving forward.
Man, I love that I wrote itdown is that sometimes you need
to quit to start.
And then I thought about, um,aspired versus practiced actions
.
So we have to be purposeful inour actions.

(51:56):
What are we thinking that isaspired and what are we actually
doing those practice within ourlives?
And then I don't know if you'veever heard this or not, but
it's the rule of a hundredpercent, and I don't even know
if it's an actual thing, but Isaw it on Instagram and it talks
about the power of justcontinuous action.
It's a beautiful way ofexpressing it.

(52:17):
So over a course of a year, ifyou dedicate 18 minutes a day to
one thing let's say you want tobe a better soccer player so 18
minutes a day, you play soccer.
For the whole year you'll havededicated up to 100 hours and at
the end of that year you'll bein the 95th percentile of soccer
players with within the world.
And I think that's just thepower of consistency and

(52:38):
compounding, because over timeit's always rough at the
beginning, like my daughter withwrestling last year not so
awesome.
This year she's doingphenomenal because she built
upon those skills and at acertain point you're going to
have a learning curve efficiencyof where now it's all clicking
and then it's just easy for youwhat was hard yesterday.
So anyway, sorry, you got mefired up.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Yeah, no man, but you're nailing it.
You're nailing it.
You know, we sometimes, wesometimes overthink what it
means to start.
We assume it has to be publicand it has to be visible and it
requires a press release.
I mean, we're so tuned into agrand opening, this big splash,
and like this announcement of Iused to be that, now I'm this,

(53:22):
look how.
And I just want everyone totake a breath.
That's not what it is.
You might get it wrong, andthat's okay too, because getting
it wrong enough leads to what'sright.
So that's why I call itexploring.
So when you book a call with me, it's not a discovery call.
What the hell are wediscovering?
That's not my language, it's aramble.
We're just going to chat, we'regoing to see where it goes,

(53:45):
we're going to show up curiousand we're going to let it unfold
.
That is exploring.
And whatever you want to start,I don't care if it's a nonprofit
, I don't care if it's your Onetiny step, you can do it by
yourself.
But find a community.
My biggest thing is find acommunity who think like you,

(54:09):
who are where you are on yourpath, because it is going to
hold you accountable.
Sure, accountability is good,but it's going to inspire you to
move forward and that's reallywhat you need.
You need courage.
Everybody really wants to waituntil they're confident and
before they start, they want tobe confident in its right
decision, confident that they'regoing to make money, confident

(54:32):
that you're not going to getthat.
That's not how starting looks.
You don't start with confidence.
You start with courage and youlean into that courage and you
explore.
And then you, with confidence,you start with courage and you
lean into that courage and youexplore, and then you build
confidence.
But you have to start withcourage.
You have to do the thing.
That feels awkward.
But when you do, man, you'regoing to feel different in your

(54:52):
day.
That Sunday pit you have everysingle Sunday at 430, or that
huge pit you have in your entirechest the day before your
vacation is done actually aboutthree days before your vacation
all that shit, all that goesaway when you have something
else on the sidelines thatyou're betting on, that you're
working through, that you'retesting, you're exploring.
All that goes away becausethat's where your energy goes.

(55:15):
You said one more thing.
You said burnout, burnout.
I think burnout isn't beingoverworked, I think it's just
working on the wrong stuff, thestuff you're not passionate
about anymore.
You could have been passionateabout it at some point in your
life.
You could have been passionateabout it for most of your life.
But when your passion issomewhere else, burnout comes
from, not from putting too muchwork in.

(55:36):
It's from the point you knowyou're working on the wrong
things and you're not chasingwhat you know or you believe is
next.
I think that leads to thisdiscontent, which is another way
of seeing burnout.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Yep, the way I see that is purposeful action is
like a tire.
If a tire can spin right andjust doing work and it looks
like it's busy but really it'snot because there's no traction.
But the moment that you addpurposeful action to that, you
have spikes within the tire.
Then you gain momentum.
And momentum is required toaccelerate in life because we
all hit roadblocks.

(56:11):
But when we gain momentum, itdoesn't matter when we hit an
obstacle because we canaccelerate beyond that.
But if we don't have traction,you're never going to move.
You're always going to findyourself in the present.
And the one thing I would loveto come talk about your your
book is I think there's a fourstep process that you kind of
walk through within this bookwould, without giving it all

(56:31):
away, right, because I know thatpeople need to go buy this.
Could you share a couplestories from that?

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Yeah, so there is four steps and look, I will give
my book away, I'll tell, I'lltalk about any portion of it.
It's, it's not.
I wrote the book.
My mission, josh and we'vetalked about this my mission,
literally, has become to inspirethe change in a thousand lives
and my metric is to get athousand notes of thanks.
My book was never written tomake me rich financially.

(57:00):
My book was to make me feelrich spiritually, and every day
I wake up and I get these notesof thanks from people from all
over the world and it makes mefeel rich.
It probably will never makemany mortgage payments and
that's okay.
That's not what I designed itto do, but here's, here's what I
went through every time.
So we talked about my careerchanges and we talked about well

(57:20):
, I regret it if I don't blah,blah, blah all of those things.
Well, I realized that as I wascoming up to that.
There were four things that Iwas wrestling with, and we've
talked about one.
The first one is knowing whenyou feel different, when today
doesn't felt like it didyesterday, your excitement is
something's changing inside ofyou and you accept that.
You have to see it, appreciateit and accept that there's a

(57:43):
change happening inside of youand when you do, the process
goes like this you got to startexploring something else, you
got to test something.
You have to take some time byyourself, selfishly, by yourself
.
This process is a very selfishprocess it is.
So take some time by yourselfand explore what it is that
might be next, what it is thatmight be calling you.

(58:04):
Don't, don't use the wrong wordshere.
Don't say what is it?
Who am I here to be?
Those are the wrong answers,yet those are the eventual
answers.
But just what might it be?
Talk to us, talk to a friend,hire a coach.
I'm here to tell you.
There's a reason why peoplebecome coaches because they get
hired, the great ones do greatand they change lives.

(58:25):
Hire a coach and startexploring.
What might it be?
Start letting yourself come outof your, come out of your shell
and start exploring.
Then, when you've identified acouple of things, start learning
, start investing your time andlearning about it.
Now you're, now you are learningand investing.
That's step two.
And you're giving.
You're giving part of yourselfto something.

(58:47):
It's more than just internal.
There's something externalgoing on.
Then there's testing.
Now, this is the point.
People are going to see whatyou're doing.
If you're going to join a board, if you're going to start a
side hustle, if you're going todo some of these things where,
yeah, you've done the investingand learning, now you're ready
to start something like create.
People are going to see it andit's a hard, hard step, but you

(59:10):
just keep leaning into that andeventually you get to this point
where you make a trade.
You either trade what you havefor where you're going or you
don't.
That's still a trade.
You've decided to trade out ofwhat you have for where you're
going or you don't.
That's still a trade.
You've decided to trade, tradeout of what you started, back to
where you were.
And the point of the matter isthis I don't care what you do.
I don't get a vote on what youdo.

(59:31):
My whole premise is do the math.
If you get to this place inyour life where you feel like
your best days are upon youthey're right here and they're
not where your feet are You'renot going to be able to live out
what you are here to do and whoyou are here to be by staying
where you're at.
You've got work to do and youowe it to yourself to start

(59:53):
something.
I don't get a vote.
Josh doesn't get a vote.
The only person who gets a voteis the person who's feeling
that way, and you have got tostart that process and you've
got to start exploring, and sothat's the whole premise of the
book, then, is to be aninsurance policy against future
regret.
And look back at this moment,the moment that if I'm talking

(01:00:19):
to you and you're feeling it,you feel it in your gut, you see
it in your head and you're like, holy shit, this is exactly how
I feel.
My best days are here, my bestwork is still inside of me.
I don't know how to let it out.
What am I gonna do?
I'm telling you get selfish,start exploring and don't let
yourself get five years olderthan you are right now and look
back at this moment and say, god, dang it, why didn't I do

(01:00:42):
something?
I knew how I felt.
I heard that dude on thepodcast talking about this and I
decided to do nothing.
I didn't talk to anyone, Ididn't join a community, I
didn't even reach out to Joshand say, hey, thanks for putting
together this great leadershippodcast.
It's changed my life.
Don't be that guy or gal.
Do something.
Do something small, but dosomething for you.
You have to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
I'm going to say it again I love that.
So I think one of the biggestmisconceptions I think within
leadership is taking the time totake a tactical pause to set
back and really evaluate oursurroundings.
And a lot of the times and Iknow you talked about like it
being selfish I think that thatis an unselfish act because when

(01:01:26):
we can show up in this world aslike our true, authentic selves
of who we're supposed to be, wecan create so much more change.
And I had to mentally shift mybrain of thinking that, hey,
investing is Josh's selfish,because I had to go, go, go, go,
go, go go, like literally fromfive 30 in the morning when I
was going into work tillsometimes not leaving work till

(01:01:48):
seven, seven, 30 at night when Iwas in command, it was it was
dark when I went home.
That was the most miserabletime.
And then it was dark when I gothome and sometimes my kids were
asleep the entire week and Inever got a chance to see them.
And then I realized quickly isthat there has to be a trade-off
.
What you just said I love thatis that we understand the

(01:02:09):
emotions that we find ourselvesin and then we need to invest in
ourselves, figure out what isthe next course of action that
we want to go take or how wewant to improve our current
surroundings.
Then test those things and makeit public.
And I love how you talk aboutmaking it public too, because
then you're addingaccountability to it, because
when you share it with otherpeople, then people can hold you

(01:02:31):
accountable to what you'retrying to do, because we can't
do it ourselves unless you'reJocko Wellington right and you
have extreme discipline.
And then the trade-off, becausethen we're going to come to a
moment in time of is this moreimportant than that?
And there has to be sacrificebecause we can't have too many
irons in the fire.
And I love how one of myfriends talked about this is

(01:02:52):
that when we have too many ironsin the fire, what it does is it
displates the heat.
So none of the irons everreached the temperature enough
to be molded or malleable tomake into that weapon.
They're hot, yeah, but it stilldidn't get to that desired heat
to make the tool that wasoriginally designed to do so.
You can only have so many ironsin a fire, and that metaphor

(01:03:14):
always plays back in into mymind.
So I have so many people inthis podcast and this is where I
want to apologize to you isthat I have not read your book
yet, but I promise you in 2024,I will read your book.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Dude, you're good.
I promise you you're good.
Look, I named the book theTrade because you realize that
there's certain points in yourlife when what you need to do
next is no longer obvious and itcan feel irresponsible, and
it's usually not free, and itrequires then you to trade

(01:03:48):
something.
It requires you to givesomething up in order to pursue
what is next.
And for so long, I think, yougo through your career and
people take bets on you.
I talked about people alwaystaking bets on me and for as
long as people were taking betson me, what was next for me was
always obvious.
It always found me Well.

(01:04:09):
I got to be in my mid 40s.
There wasn't going to besomebody next to come along to
take a bet on me and my optionwas to stay where I was or trade
it for who I was capable ofbeing.
It wasn't obvious, it wasn'tfree, it was a trade.
If it was obvious and free, itwould be a gift.
It's not a gift.

(01:04:29):
It's hard.
It's hard work, but, man, is itworth it?
When you come out, you're goingto learn.
When you do this, it isimpossible to look back.
I've never met a single personwho made the trade and look back
and said, boy, I wish Iwouldn't have chased my dreams,
I wish I wouldn't have taken abet on myself, even when it
doesn't work the way they wantedit to.

(01:04:50):
Nobody gets to the end and saysI wish I wouldn't have tried.
Everybody gets to the end andsays I wish I'd have started
earlier or I wish I'd have triedwhen I knew it was my time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Yep, you just have to push yourself outside of that
comfort zone.
It's time for our final showsegment that I like to call the
killer bees.
These are the same fourquestions that I ask every guest
on the Tales of Leadershippodcast Be brief, be brilliant,
be present and be gone.

(01:05:21):
Question one what do youbelieve separates a good leader
from a great leader?

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
A great leader learns how to lead with his ears, or
her ears, versus their mouth,and you make that transition,
usually later than you wish youwould have, but once you do, you
change lives.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Yep Spot on man Number two.
What is one resource that youcould recommend to our listeners
to grow?

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
I listened to a lot of Seth Godin.
I just think the guy's up.
I'm so jealous of his abilityto communicate.
He's just absolutely Well.
First of all, I'm a hugebeliever.
We preach the same things and Ididn't find Seth until a year
after I was gone, even thoughhe's been around for a long time
.
But man, I just think he'sabsolutely brilliant and I just

(01:06:07):
love how he communicates.
What he preaches little Ppreach, and I just think that's
absolutely fantastic.
And then, more generically, andI've said this a few times find
a tribe, find a community andbe willing to spend a few bucks.
I mean, it's you'll.
Most people will spend more ondinner with their spouse on a

(01:06:29):
month, one time a month, thanthey would ever spend on
themselves trying to really feelgood about where they're going,
and I just really would ask youto give yourself permission to
try it.
Try something where you'reinvesting a little money on
yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Spot on, brother.
Number three if you could goback in time and give your
younger self a piece of advice,what would it be?

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
Well, the easy one would be to lead with your ears.
I would tell myself thatleadership is about showing up
and that the hardest thing thatyou will do in your life is to
decide when you're going to notdo nothing.
Leadership is not doing nothing, leadership is doing something.
And to really have clarity,pure clarity on who you are and

(01:07:18):
what you will and will nottolerate, and live purely inside
that, unapologetically, andeven though I feel like I've
done pretty well at that, itisn't until really late.
You know this phase of my lifein my late forties, that I know
exactly who I am and I knowexactly what I will and won't
tolerate, and I stand in itevery day.

(01:07:38):
And the sooner you can figurethat out in life, the more
you're going to enjoy every dayyou've got left.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
Spot on, brother.
I love that.
I love when people answer thatquestion, because everyone
answers it slightly differentand it comes from your shared
experience.
So that is probably my favoritequestion.
I get an opportunity to askgreat leaders like you.
And the last one is how can ourlisteners find you and how can
they add value to your mission?

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
My mission is to inspire change in a thousand
lives.
So you are helping my missionby allowing me to be in your
podcast and really all I want todo is give people a moment to
stop, think about where they areand if they are not happy, if
they are not living their nextchapter, do something.
So that's my mission to inspirethe change in a thousand lives
where they can find me.
It's pretty easy Normal40.comgets, gets you almost everywhere

(01:08:30):
.
I show up every day on LinkedInand I leave a message that
hopefully inspires, gives yousomething to think about, and
hopefully tweaks and motivatesand inspires and annoys all at
the same time exactly whatyou're feeling, because I'm
trying to twist you into doingsomething.
That is my intent when I showup there.
So it is going to be a littlepunchy.
You can find me there every day.
You can email me at lon, atnormal 40.com, and then a couple

(01:08:51):
of other things.
I do have my own podcast callednormal 40, the podcast.
You can join me there.
Um, and then I've got acommunity called the Insider
that you can find from mywebsite.
When I say find a community,this is a community for some
people and you're invited tocome in.
We're in there at least twice amonth.
We've got our own boards wherewe're communicating, and the
people in there are your biggestcheerleaders and, by the way,

(01:09:13):
you'll be theirs.
There's men and women of allages, but all of them are two
years from before making a tradeto two years after they've made
the trade, and everyone's inthere supporting one another,
and it's probably one of thethings I'm most proud of.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
I love that, brother.
I love that you're being ableto make the community too, and
not only are you providing theinformation, you're also
providing the support and Ialways say this, but I genuinely
mean it One of my best podcaststhat I've been able to film,
because I've learned so muchfrom you, and you are what I
call a purposeful, accountableleader or a pal.
So thank you for the space ofjust sharing your leadership

(01:09:48):
wisdom.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
Yeah, man.
Well, thank you, and I've saidit off the top, but thank you
for your service.
Thank you for look.
Doing a podcast is hard workand it looks easy.
It looks like you put throwsome headphones on and you hit
record and, having done a fairnumber of my own, I know how
hard it is.
And, to stay on message ontopic, do the editing, get it

(01:10:10):
out there, and then you do somuch more.
I mean, you're writing, you'recreating content all the way
around it, you're promoting it.
So look, dude, on behalf ofmyself and your listeners, thank
you for doing it, because it ishaving an effect.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
I appreciate it, brother.
Yeah, thank you.
Have a great day.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Thanks, man.
Thanks for letting me be here.
I'll see you on the next page.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
All right team.
What a phenomenal episode withLon, before we kind of go
through the AAR process wetalked about at the very end.
Another journey that he's goingto be going to take that I
didn't even have the opportunityto bring up on the podcast and
I generally mean that is that Icould be a dude, a Joe Rogan,
talking two to three hours, butI tried to stick within the

(01:10:53):
bounds of one hour just becausethere's so much information and
content out to you guys and Iwant it to be in bite-sized
chunks that you can understandand digest for, maybe driving
into work and driving back fromwork or wherever you have the
space to listen to.
But in February he's going togo hike by himself, machu Picchu
, and his kind of goal is tofind a place that allows him to

(01:11:18):
share that experience with otherindividuals and, within that
space that he's building withinthe Normal 40 community, he
would like to have other peopleattend this with him, you know,
maybe on a yearly basis orwhatever it is, but as a
opportunity to grow, meet newpeople and put yourself in

(01:11:41):
uncomfortable situations.
So if you're interested in hisjourney that he's getting ready
to take, I highly recommend thatyou go to his LinkedIn page and
follow him on LinkedIn, solet's just jump right into it.
So what are the top threetakeaways?
The first one that we discussedwas curiosity and conviction,
and I think that as you grow inyour leadership capacity, you

(01:12:04):
have to understand thatcuriosity is essential for
growth because it allows foropen-mindedness, and conviction
is a very closed-minded way ofthinking and as we gain more
title, more authority, moreresponsibility, we have to shift
our minds.
We can't always beclosed-minded to everything,
because to solve complexproblems, you have to be

(01:12:26):
open-minded, you have to becurious, and when you are
curious, you look for creativesolutions.
So understand that as youcontinue to rise in authority
and rank responsibility whereveryou find yourself in a
leadership position, that isabsolutely imperative is that
you don't give in to yourconviction that you always

(01:12:48):
remain curious.
The next key takeaway that Ihave was we talked about the
power of delegating.
Again, as you gain moreresponsibility and authority,
the one thing that is going tomake or break you is how you
delegate.
Number one do you trust yourpeople enough to delegate

(01:13:09):
authority down and I brought upthe topic of mission command.
But number two are youdelegating the right things or
are you just task dumping onyour team or everyone around you
.
And it's funny as I go throughthese podcasts, I reflect on my
life and I also find myself taskdumping, sometimes on my wife,

(01:13:30):
right?
So I'm an active duty armyofficer, I film all of these
podcasts, I do a lot.
I manage my social media, I doa lot of things, and sometimes I
find myself talking to my wifeas an employee like hey, you
know, it'd be really great ifyou could handle my social media
.
I do a lot of things.
And sometimes I find myselftalking to my wife as an
employee like hey, you know,it'd be really great if you
could handle my social media.
Or hey, you should start doingthis for our podcast.
And I find myself understandingthat there are certain things

(01:13:53):
you just should not delegate,especially to your wife, right?
But that's just a point ofvulnerability.
Whatever job you have, there aredistinct and specific tasks and
responsibilities that you havethat you should never delegate,
and you need to understand whatthose are.
I can't tell you what they arebecause I don't know where you
find yourself, but you need tounderstand what they are.
But 90% of the things that youcould be doing should be done by

(01:14:18):
someone else and I always askthat question should be done by
someone else.
And I always ask that questionShould someone be doing this
other than me and could they doas good or better of a job than
me?
And if the answer is yes andyes, always delegate those
things to the right people.
But also delegate to make sureyou're not breaking your team.
Make sure you're sharing theburden.
If you have a rock star on yourteam and you continue to give

(01:14:38):
them tasks, there's going to bea certain point where those
glass balls that we talked aboutin this podcast are just going
to start to break.
But when you can learn todelegate effectively, it does
two things.
Number one, it allows forexponential growth because
you're really not ever cuttingoff your potential to grow,
because as you get more tasks,you can delegate those down.

(01:14:59):
And number two, you're creatingan internal pipeline to create
future leaders.
So not only are you delegatingtasks, you're creating future
leaders, which, in turn, canbuild more authority and
delegate more responsibilitydown.
So as you grow, you're growinginternally, and that's so
beautiful.
So understand that, as a leader,when you delegate to the point

(01:15:22):
of being uncomfortable, you aresucceeding.
So I challenge you go, beuncomfortable, delegate stuff
that someone could be doing andshould be doing, and figure out
what those red lines are ofthings that you can't.
And the last key takeaway thatI have is sometimes you need to

(01:15:42):
quit to start, and that's true.
There's a trade-off.
This is the whole theme in thisepisode is that, no matter
where you find yourself in life,every single journey we are on
there is going to be a hard stopright Like I'm in the military.
At some time in my careerhopefully not near future,
because I love what I'm doing Iwill retire and the service to

(01:16:08):
my country as an active dutyservice member will end.
When will that happen?
I don't know, I can't tell you,but there'll be a trade-off.
I will give up my uniform topotentially be a more active
father, to go chase some dreamsof mine, to go get that PhD in
leadership that I wanted to do,to go write a book, to go
full-time in entrepreneurshipand build a community and be in

(01:16:31):
this full-time being active andmaybe having active people on my
podcast.
I don't know what that is, butthere's always a tradeoff.
Wherever you find yourself rightnow, there is always a
trade-off, and that's notnecessarily a bad thing.
You have to give to sacrificeand you have to give up to
receive.
So you need to understand that.
What is the trade-off that youfind yourself in?

(01:16:53):
And if you understand whereyou're going, what's aspired and
what's practiced, right,there's a certain place that
we're trying to go, a desiredend state.
Are you saying the right thingsor are you doing the right
things?
And I broke that down toaspired or practiced actions and
you have to understand those.
So, team, do me a favor.
If you like the content thatI'm providing or bringing to you

(01:17:16):
guys, do me three things.
It would mean the world to me.
Number one is share thispodcast with anyone and everyone
, because everyone is a leader.
Number two, make sure that yourate this show, no matter what
you're listening, no matter whatthe platform is, or however you
can do it.
Make sure you leave a comment,if you can, or leave a review.

(01:17:37):
Go tomcmillianleadershipcoachingcom,
read some of the additionalresources that I provide you to
include this podcast episodewith a fully written article to
summarize all the key concepts.
And then the final one issupport the channel, if you can,
and you can go totellsleadershipcom, backslash
buzzsprout, or you can go tomcmillianleadershipcoachingcom.

(01:17:57):
Find any of my podcast episodesand you'll be able to figure
out how to support the channelfrom there.
But, as always, team humbledand honored to continue to have
this platform to help bringlight into this world and build
more purposeful, accountableleaders.
And, as always, I'm your host,josh McMillian, saying every day

(01:18:18):
is a gift.
Don't waste yours.
I'll see you next time.

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#99 Lon Stroschein - Founder of Normal 40 and Best-selling Author

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#99 Lon Stroschein - Founder of Normal 40 and Best-selling Author