August 25, 2023 • 53 mins
Do you feel the power of podcasting? Brace yourself, as we have the phenomenal internal communications strategist, Ben Baker, with us today. Ben's journey into podcasting is nothing short of unique, and he walks us through how this platform allows deeper, unrestricted dialogues and a rich, flexible listening experience for audiences.
We don't just stop at podcasting. Together with Ben, we traverse through the world of communication, emphasizing how critical it is to foster healthy conversations and conflict resolution skills, especially among the young generation. We unravel the profound impact social media has on communication, stressing the significance of active listening in understanding differing perspectives.
Setbacks, resilience, adaptability - we get personal as Ben shares anecdotes from his entrepreneurial journey. Listen to how he turned business failures into a learning experience, building resilience and changing his outlook. We also venture into the harder parts of communication, like expressing regret to resolve challenging situations. Catch this enlightening episode and learn about the intriguing world of podcasting, the art of healthy communication, overcoming business failures, and the vitality of resilience in life.
Looking to overcome marketing blunders and find inspiration from the experts who have been there?
Subscribe to Tales of Misadventure with Nicole Donnelly wherever you prefer to stream podcasts!
Get in touch with the team at Tales of Misadventure by visiting dmgdigital.io.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey there, thanks for joining us for Tales of
Misadventure, a podcast allabout business blunders.
On this podcast, NicoleDonnelly, founder of DMG Digital
, talks to entrepreneurs andlearns how they turn their
lemons into lemonade.
Dmg Digital is a contentmarketing agency focused on
helping manufacturers attractnew buyers through digital
(00:23):
self-serve.
Nicole Donnelly is a fourthgeneration entrepreneur, a girl,
mom and an avid traveler.
Now let's head into a tale ofmisadventure with your host,
Nicole Donnelly.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello and welcome to Tales of Misadventure, where
amazing entrepreneurs sharetheir stories of failure and how
they turn lemons into lemonade.
Today, I am so honored to bejoined by my dear friend, ben
Baker, and Ben is so great athelping organizations
communicate value inside the org.
Too many of us focus oncommunicating our value outside
(00:59):
our organization.
The challenge is, if peopleinside your organization don't
understand and believe in yourstory, what you do and why, and
who you do it for, they won't beable to communicate it to
clients, prospects or vendors.
For more than a quarter century, ben has been helping
(01:19):
organizations tell their story,build cultures around it, share
their vision, mission and goalsand drive change, all through
developing more effectiveinternal communication
strategies and processes.
Not only that, but Ben is alsoa published author of two
amazing books Powerful PersonalBrands, a Hands-On Guide to
(01:41):
Understanding Yours and LeadingBeyond a Crisis A Conversation
About what's Next.
On top of all that, ben is alsoa father and husband and
community leader volunteer, andalso he has been podcasting
since before podcasting was evena thing, so he is a legend in
(02:01):
the podcasting industry.
So, ladies and gentlemen,welcome Ben Baker to the show
today.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Hello Nicole, I am so excited about this Maybe a
legend in my own mind.
Let's get this started.
I mean, yes, I have beenpodcasting for 11 years, but I
got buddies of mine that havebeen doing this for 20.
So I'm not quite an OG, I'mright somewhere in the middle
there, but I've done this for ayear or two, so I got to shorten
(02:28):
that bio.
I'm sitting there going okay,all right.
Enough, it's enough.
You just sit there going, allright.
Just call me Ben, I'm happywith just Ben.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I love the name Ben.
My brother's name is Ben, so Ihear that name and it just warms
my heart, warms my heart to mysoul.
It's a beautiful name and Iwould just love to start.
So I'm just curious about whatwas it that brought you into
podcasting so long ago?
What was the thing that you'relike?
I want to do this.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Well, as I kept joking with you off air, I have
a great face for radio and about11, 12 years ago I was doing
some radio work with somefriends of mine and you know,
right with digital radio wasfirst coming on board and I
found that it was just stilted.
It was just, you know it is.
It was still that 23 and a halfminute process you know forever
(03:20):
.
For every half hour, every halfhour you got you have 23
minutes, it's, it's okay, it'sintro, and then you go out for
commercial.
Then you come back fromcommercial, then you talk for
five or 10 minutes, then you goout for commercial again and
then you bring it back and thenyou have to reiterate what you
said before the commercial andbring people back into the
conversation and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and so
for you know an hour you're,you're lucky if you get 42 to 46
(03:44):
minutes.
And it was just, it was, it wasthere and back.
And especially when you'retrying to have a conversation
with somebody, because I reallylike having interview radio, I
just found it really stilted.
And a friend of mine said youknow what you're going to love
podcasting, because you controlit, you know if you want to have
all your, your, your, yourcommercials at the front of the
(04:04):
show?
Have them at the front of theshow.
You want to have them all atthe end of the show?
Have them at the end of theshow.
If you want to have a block ofcommercials somewhere in the
middle, you can do that.
If you don't want to have anycommercials whatsoever, that's
on you as well, but it's it.
You control the horizontal, youcontrol the vertical and it
allows you to have more of areal life ongoing conversation
(04:26):
without constantly having to belook at the time and go okay, I
got to wrap this up and admit itin 32 seconds because the next
set of commercials is coming up.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
You're absolutely right.
I think it really does.
The format of podcasting allowsyou to have those deeper
conversations and just getdeeper and deeper and deeper,
because there is no you can,like you said, there's so much
flexibility on how it'sstructured.
I mean, there's some podcaststhat you can listen.
They're like three, four, fivehours long.
You know, I was on vacationwith my family this past month
(04:57):
in July and we did.
It was a road trip.
We went towards severalbeautiful national parks here in
the US and we listened to thishistory podcast on the Vikings
and it was.
It was literally hours andhours and it was riveting.
It was utterly riveting, and Iwas more.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Who knows, to the, to the host, you can do that, I
tell you.
You know, as much fun as I have, I can't be, I can't be
riveting for three hours.
I'll tell you that much.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
I was just amazed at how much knowledge he had and
detail about the egg, was ableto tell it in such a cool
storytelling way.
You know it was like reading abook, but listening it was just
so very, very cool.
So I totally love that tooabout podcasting and for your
audience.
It just allows them so muchflexibility because they can
listen when they want to, theycan, they can binge it if they
(05:44):
want to, multiple episodes andall of that so very very cool,
absolutely.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
I think it's a great medium.
And the great thing about themedium is there's lots of
different ways to unpack it.
You know, you and I will do 40,45 minutes, maybe a little bit
more, maybe a little bit less.
But we can unpack this thingand all of a sudden it can
become three or four five minutevideos, it can become
audiograms, it can become, youknow, memes.
(06:11):
There's all sorts of things youcan do with the material from
the podcast.
It can become training material, it can become white papers,
audiograms, heck.
My second book is a series ofpodcasts.
We took 16 or 20 podcasts, youknow, transcribed them, edited
them down, added it a little bit, or, you know, took a little
bit out and all of a sudden wehad our book, and you know.
(06:33):
So there's so much you can dowith the podcasting medium that
is beyond the actual podcastitself.
That just makes it.
It's just such a flexible,powerful medium.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Oh, you're so right.
We like to call it the contentwaterfall at our company.
You know you take that long formpiece of content, podcast, and
then it creates this awesomewaterfall, you know beautiful
waterfall, where you can justsplice out different video clips
, blogs, social media posts andit just lives in perpetuity and
you can just continue.
And, from a brandingperspective, the more you can
(07:06):
get that same consistentmessaging out over and over and
over, the more that's going tocreate those you know
connections for people thatwhenever they think of this
topic, they're going to think ofyour brand.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
I mean we do something calledfor clients we call them mini
podcasts where we find thatthere's lots of companies out
there that don't want a fullpodcast, they don't want to be
the rigidity of being in apodcast studio 52 weeks a year.
They just don't have the time,don't have the energy, don't
have enough to say or whateverthey don't think they have
enough to say.
(07:37):
So we create these 13 episodemini podcasts and not only do
you get 13 episodes of themsharing their thought leadership
or the thought leadership oftheir people or the thought
leadership of their clients over13 episodes, but you are able
to take that information andturn that into, as I said, white
papers.
You know becomes all sorts ofdifferent content short videos,
(08:03):
audiograms, posts so all of asudden you have hundreds of
pieces of content that come outof 13 episodes and it becomes
extremely powerful for companies.
You know that just need to beable to communicate with their
clients on a regular basis, butnot be in their face on a daily
basis.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So true Love, that Very cool.
Well, you know what, Ben?
As I was preparing for thisepisode, I really had a topic in
mind that I wanted.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Perfect.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I love it I was like man, I want to get Ben's take on
this, and that is conflict.
I saw that you did this reallycool show the other day with Con
on conflict was reallyinteresting to me, and I
recently interviewed someone onthe podcast and we were talking
all about conflict and conflictresolution and I just think this
is such an important topic forus, wherever we are in life,
(08:54):
because with our you knowpersonal lives, professional
lives, it is inevitable thatyou're going to encounter
conflict and I think thatthere's like this stigma around
conflict that it's just like ifyou're in conflict with someone
it's bad, you know, but I just,I would just love to get your
perspective.
I, I, um, I read this reallygreat book while I was on
(09:17):
vacation.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yes, j Shetty, yeah, oh my gosh, it's so good.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And he totally reframed this idea of conflict
and I'd love to get yourthoughts on conflict and in the
workplace and all of that.
but sure he says in this book?
He says what if we approached afight as a team?
The specter of disagreementbuilds like a wave in the ocean.
I love that visual.
As it approaches, it growstaller and more daunting.
(09:45):
But instead of turning awayfrom the wave to pretend you
don't see it, the two of youface it as it looms over you.
Can you keep your heads abovewater or will it crash on top of
you?
The key is understanding thatyour partner, or whoever it is
that you're in conflict with, isnot the wave.
The wave is the issue aboutwhich you disagree.
(10:05):
If the two of you approach ittogether, kicking in the same
direction, you can swim throughit side by side with a sense of
shared victory.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I love that.
Yeah, I love the way that heframes that with the analogies
of the waves, because the firstwave never kills you.
Yeah, the first wave neverkills you.
The first wave wakes you up andrealizes hey, listen, there's
something you need to payattention to.
But most people ignore thefirst wave and I think that the
(10:38):
reason we have the stigmaagainst conflict is that we
don't understand the language ofthe waiver.
We don't understand thelanguage of conflict.
We you have your lexicon, Ihave my lexicon.
You have your biases, I have mybiases.
You have your goals, your wants, your needs, your fears, your
aspirations, I have mine.
(11:00):
And we feel that we've gotten toa point in the world where it's
the shades of gray havedisappeared and there's this
feeling of black and white andwhether it's politics, whether
it's religion, whether it's allsorts of things, and we haven't
learned how to sit there and saylisten, none of us are 100%
(11:20):
right, none of us are 100% wrong.
There isn't my truth versus yourtruth, there's my opinion
versus your opinion.
There is a single truth outthere that probably none of us
understand and none of us willnever understand.
We can get closer to that truthtogether by combining my ideas
(11:41):
of what's right and your ideasof what's right, and coming up
with a common language thatenables us to attack this
together, to be able to look atthis thing and say, listen, we
don't understand this from eachother's point of view.
Okay, let's get your opinionsand my opinions and let's see if
we can come up with a thirdunderstanding of what the actual
(12:03):
reality is, because none of ustruly understand reality.
I mean, I'm having fights withpeople about AI today that are
not AI experts.
Everybody's got their opinionsabout.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
AI today, Everybody's you know who's an AI expert.
It's so new right, that's right.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
I'm six YouTubes ahead of you, so I'm an expert
on AI.
But everybody sits there andwants to claim that they are an
expert on AI.
People have been talking aboutAI for 90 years now and they
still don't understand what itcan be.
They understand what it is today, in its infancy.
(12:39):
It's not even in diapers yet.
It's just coming out of thewomb and it's in that initial
swaddling cloth.
You know, ai has got so much togo before it can crawl, rock
and run.
But we've all defined that it'seither evil or it's beneficial
and we're in this huge conflictabout it.
But I think the issue is thefact that none of us are willing
(13:02):
to admit that we're wrong.
None of us are willing to admitthat we don't understand, that
we don't have a fullunderstanding of what something
is and what something can be.
We do a wonderful exercise withclients.
Have you ever seen a graphicrecorder?
You know when keynote speakersget up and they have that
(13:23):
cartoon drawing that somebodydoes on the big blackboards
behind you and it shows thejourney of the conversation.
I've had that done for me manytimes on stage and they're great
because it gives this analogyof where you are.
The beautiful thing is that webring that into situations when
we're talking about where acompany is and where it's going,
(13:44):
and instead of you get peoplein the room where you know
there's dynamics and you knowthere's politics and you know
there's opinions and turf warsand all that.
If you can get them focused onthe drawing instead of each
other, then they can sit thereand say, well, no, no, we want
it to be like oh, yeah, okay.
And then all of a sudden youget these warring factions
(14:07):
collaborating on what thedrawing should be and where the
drawing should be, and it leadsto these breakthroughs based on
not focusing on each other andletting ego get in the way and
actually focusing on the problemitself.
And I think that's our biggestproblem.
We're not teaching kids at avery young age how to be
(14:28):
conflictual anymore and how tosit there and say it's not about
you, it's about the idea, andit's not about me being right
and you being wrong and the zerosum game.
It's an idea, it's a thought,it's a process and let's work
through it together.
Like we don't have debate teamsanymore, we don't have any of
(14:52):
the tools that we've had in thepast to enable kids to have a
language of conflict, to have alanguage of debate and be able
to sit there and say, okay,maybe there is a third opinion
or maybe your idea has merits,instead of everybody digging in
their heels.
So I've talked about this toolong, but it's I love so many,
(15:14):
like amazing nuggets.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I love the first thing you said about it's the
first wave that doesn't kill you.
Oh, that is such wisdom, right.
Sometimes that first waveknocks you and you're just like,
whoa, I gotta figure out how torecenter myself.
And I loved, too, what you saidabout ego, because you're
absolutely right on there.
It's like the sooner that wecan release the ego, the more
(15:37):
that we can really try tounderstand and separate
ourselves from you know, ego isus right Separate you from the
problem and try to look at itfrom this external vantage point
.
A bigger perspective of this ismore than just you.
There's a lot more at play here.
Take ego out of it.
How can we address this problem?
(15:58):
And if you're so right aboutdiscourse shifting and kids not
learning about how to, you know,see conflict this way?
What do you think needs tochange?
Or, you know, I'm a parent.
What is something that I can bedoing within my own family, you
know, with my kids, to helpfoster and encourage that sense
(16:20):
of like, leaning into conflictin a healthy way and releasing
ego?
What are some things, somestrategies that people can be
thinking about, that they canimplement in their workplaces,
in their homes, wherever they'reat, so that we can get back to
that healthy place?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I think we as parents have got to let our kids fall
in their face.
I truly think we've got to getkids out there and getting dirty
and letting them eat dirt again.
I truly admit I am a 1950sparent.
I am the dinosaur, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
You don't look like a dinosaur back.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
No, but I truly believe.
I mean my son at a very earlyage, less than six months old.
Stop breathing three times.
Okay, he almost died.
He had something called GERD,which is gastroesophical reflux
disease.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
My daughter same.
Thing.
Exactly you know, we sent himto the hospital.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
They figured it out and, from that point on, our
viewpoint is look, is hebleeding, is he breathing?
Okay, let him go.
And a lot of it comes down toparents enabling their kids to
discover things on their own,because if we're discovering
things for them, if we'recontinually holding their hand
(17:33):
and guiding the path, they'llnever figure that path out on
their own.
And you know and yes, the worldis a scary place and yes, there
are things that we need tothink but it's giving the kids
the tools to be able to havehealthy conversations.
When I was a kid, I was notallowed to leave the table when
(17:53):
the adults were talking.
I was to sit at the table andmy job was to be part of it.
I was expected to be part ofthe conversation.
Adults would ask me questions.
My son growing up was on thegolf team and played golf and a
lot of times he would walk on asa single and end up playing
(18:14):
with doctors and lawyers andaccountants and stuff people who
could take the day off and playin the middle of the day,
because he'd play at two o'clockor three o'clock in the
afternoon after school and helearned how to talk to adults
and to be able to haveconversations outside of his own
minutiae and his own head, andI think the more places we can
(18:36):
give our children the ability tobe curious, the ability to
understand that they don't knoweverything and that there is a
world to explore beyond theirown set of beliefs and challenge
them on that, I think we'resetting them up more for success
.
Maybe I'm wrong this is myviewpoint but I find that the
(19:02):
helicopter parenting and thethere, there, now, now everybody
gets a blue ribbon mentalityhasn't worked, so maybe we need
to try something else.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, I think you're onto something there with this
whole idea of self-discovery,right?
Because by giving your kids thefreedom or even in the
workplace people that you workwith, if you're a manager,
giving your team the freedom andletting go of the need to
control the situation andletting them have the freedom
and knowing you know whatthey're gonna go off on their
own, I'm gonna let them ridedown the street to Joe's house.
(19:35):
I'm not gonna see them thewhole way, but I'm gonna trust
that they're gonna get there andI'm gonna give them the freedom
and the confidence for them tofigure out how to do it.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, and maybe you tell the kids that when they get
to Joe's house they have toeither text you or they have to
call you to say that they'rethere.
That's not unreasonable.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
But giving them the opportunity to get on their
bikes themselves and go downthere and not have to have you
walk them every single time ordrive them every single time
they wanna go three blocks downto a neighbor's house is not an
unreasonable experience, and Ithink you're right.
For leaders, taking that samething into the workplace is the
same analogy we need to beworking with.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, because it's true, you're giving them the
ability to self discover forthemselves and have their own
experience without any sort offilter, right?
You're not filtering it forthem as a parent who's right
there next to them helping themwith whatever, or in the
workplace.
You're there with them tryingto help them solve this problem.
They get to filter it forthemselves and figure out for
(20:40):
themselves, and I can see howthat then would then lead them
to have more empathy for otherpeople, because there's not
someone that they're having toanswer to.
Do you know what I mean?
Like that's so fascinating.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
One of the best definitions of leadership I ever
heard was leadership from themiddle.
You're in the middle of thefray and some people need a
gentle push forward.
Some people might need a handback, pulled back, to pull them
forward every once a while, butmost people just need to know
that you're there.
When I was a leader, when I wasa leader, you were not sorry.
(21:15):
Yeah, oh geez.
You were not allowed to comeinto my office unless you had
two answers to the problem.
If you had a problem, you hadto come into my office with two
answers.
I may not like either one ofthem, but more than likely I'm
gonna let you try one of the twoof them or a combination.
So you had, I was giving, I wasempowering you.
(21:38):
My job is to empower you as aleader.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
And I think what's great about that, too, is that
you are they're buildingconfidence.
And the more confident peopleare, I find, the more
open-minded they are, becausethey realize there's not this
like self-consciousness aboutthe need to be right all the
time or else I'm not gonna beworthwhile or good, right, but
the more confidence you have,the more self-love you have for
(22:05):
yourself.
I think there's an opennessthere to accept, like I'm still
okay if this person believessomething differently than I do.
It's gonna be fine, we can findsomething together.
The other thing I'm curiousabout that I feel like may have
changed this a lot, is over time.
It's like we're in this now,now.
Now society, right, so likesocial media, people are just
(22:29):
tweeting and saying things andit's like instant communication,
right, but it's difficult inthe because of social media and
the situation that we have tohave these like extended
discourse situations, right,like it's just like there's a
tweet and it's just incendiary.
You know, rather than let'slike create a situation like
(22:50):
this where we can sit andconvers.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I mean, there's those too.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I mean, don't you find like it's a little bit
harder to have those becauseeverybody's just rushing around
all the time and people aren'ttaking the time.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
It's the thought process of it's left my fingers
so it's not my problem anymore.
You send an email, you send atweet, you post something online
, whatever.
It's now somebody else'sproblem and it's not taking
responsibility.
How many people on social mediaactually, once they've sent a
(23:23):
tweet, out, linked something onInstagram, whatever, go back and
they actually read the commentsand actually respond to their
own comments?
A very small percentage ofpeople actually do actually walk
into their own comment sectionand actually engage with the
people that are part of that.
So it's almost like a dump andleave situation and it's at.
(23:48):
You know it's absolvingyourself of responsibility.
And I think that because of that, horrible, hurtful things are
said.
You know, people can say thingswithout any retribution
whatsoever and people just moveon.
And people have accepted this,where if you actually have to
(24:09):
sit in the same room withsomebody, or over zoom or
whatever thing, and actuallyhave a discourse with somebody,
and somebody said to go heyNicole, what did you mean by
that?
And you actually have to sitthere and respond and you
actually have to takeresponsibility and
accountability for the wordsthat come out of your or the
actions that you've done.
Hopefully you're gonna be alittle bit more intentional
(24:34):
about what you do and what yousay.
And I think that social mediahas ruined communication.
It's ruined our ability notonly to communicate effectively
because of the asynchronousnature of it and when things get
lost and said unintentionallyor intentionally, and it also
(24:54):
gives us the inability to listen, and I think that listening is
the fine art of communicationthat most people have lost.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
That's so interesting .
Listening is the fine art ofcommunication that most people
have lost.
Oh man, that's so good.
Oh, I think a lot of the thingthat's missing with social media
, with listening too, is thatyou're not seeing people face to
face, and there's somethingabout facing someone when you're
(25:25):
having those difficultconversations, knowing that
there is a human person therewith eyes and a smile and a
mouth.
It takes social media, it takessome of that humanity away from
this human experience.
That is such a beautiful thing,and it makes it difficult to
listen when you can't see theperson and use an experience.
Listening with all of yoursenses, right, like, you're
(25:48):
limited, you're stunted, youonly have a few senses you can
use to understand the wholecomplexity of the situation.
And even if you are, it'susually a one-sided situation
where you're watching a video,right, you're not, or maybe
you're not, involved in whateverthe live event is.
So I love what you said thereabout listening.
Let's talk about that a littlebit more.
What do you think we need to doto be better listeners?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Well, I mean, it's social media is not social.
It isn't, it's one-waycommunication and it tends to be
for the vast majority of people.
Yes, there are people thatunderstand what social selling
is.
There are people thatcommunicate really effectively.
They engage back and forth incomments, but that's a rare
percentage of people.
What do we need to be bettereffective listeners?
(26:33):
What do we need to be bettereffective communicators?
I think the first thing we needto do is care we actually need
to care about the person on theother side of the conversation.
They can't just be some avatar,they can't just be some title
on the other end of acommunication piece, whether
(26:53):
it's email, a tweet, a textmessage, whatever.
It's a human being and thathuman being has hopes, wants,
feeds, fears, needs and desires.
That human being is eitherhaving a good day or having a
bad day.
That human being may have asick parent, that human being
may have a sick child, and youknow.
(27:15):
And therefore, whatever you sayimpacts that person in ways
that you may never understand.
And I think the more human weare to each other and the more
humane we are with each other,the more we have the ability to
have meaningful conversationsand be able to sit there and say
(27:36):
you know what the conversationis about, isn't about me, it's
about we, it's about both of us.
It's not about just how bad myday is, it's how are you doing?
And mean it like, actually asksomebody how are they doing?
And not go to the next questionwhen they say, yeah, I'm fine.
Well, are you really fine?
Or are you just saying that forpolitical expediency?
(27:57):
No, truly, how are you doingand be willing to take the 5, 10
, 15, 20 minutes it takes forthat person to unpack, if they
need to unpack?
And I think that, as you said,because we are such a busy
society, because we've becomesuch instantaneous gratification
and it's about us throughsocial media and through the
(28:23):
world, and we see the worldthrough our own lenses and we
are becoming more narcissisticas a society.
We need to be conscious aboutthat and realize that other
people are not viewing the worldthe same way that you do.
They don't care about the samethings that you do.
They don't feel the same thingsthat you do are important.
(28:44):
And if you really truly want toknow them, you need to
understand how they see theworld and what are the things
that they matter to them if youreally want to have that
relationship.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
So good, so my next this is just so great.
Then I could just like can wejust talk all day long?
Sure.
Like you and I are likeeverything you're saying is just
it's like hitting me right inmy heart and it's just
everything I want to hear, needto hear, and it's so powerful
(29:18):
and impactful and it'schallenging me in so many ways
to think about my relationshipsand how I can improve, and so
I'm just really appreciative andinspired by everything you
shared.
It's super awesome.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Let me give the caveat to this.
I am not perfect.
There are times I unload onpeople.
There are times that I sitthere like what the heck do you
mean by that?
And I really don't care.
I'm not a perfect husband, I'mnot a perfect leader.
You know what.
We are all going to havemoments of our own self need,
(29:55):
and there are times we justdon't really care about what
other people have to say andwhat other people need.
We just need to get stuff done,and but we need.
We need to be conscious of thatand realize that that should be
an exception, not a rule.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I think that's a good point.
I also think what you're sayingis is like, as we're trying to
cultivate and become betterlisteners, it's so important
that we bring forgiveness intothat forgiveness for ourselves
and forgiveness for other peopleand realizing we are not
perfect, people, I'm not perfect, you're not perfect and so,
like the more that we can try toreally lean into.
(30:33):
I am going to listen to thisand I'm going to forgive
whatever and come into it with,like this I have forgiveness.
How can I cultivate forgivenessrather than I mean how do you?
Yeah, I just think that's very,very cool, but I do have a
follow up question.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
When would you say when?
How can you identify whenconflict is truly reached or
crossed a line where it's likethis isn't working, this is
really not a relationship thatis worth continuing pursuing, or
or it's like unhelp.
You know it's an unhealthyconflict.
How can you?
(31:10):
What would you advise forpeople when they're trying to
suss out like a conflict theymay be having to identify?
Is this something good, thispursuing, or how was your advice
there?
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Do you want an example?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
I'll change names and locations to protect the
innocent.
But I had a client that was afairly large client, that was,
which was attached to a muchlarger client.
It was a police departmentattached to a city.
Okay, so the relationship wasintertwined and the person that
I dealt with in the police forcechanged and, at the same time,
(31:50):
my vendor changed.
One of my vendors went out ofbusiness.
We had a new vendor and thiswas something as simple as as
hats, baseball caps for thepolice force, and they needed
three to 5,000 of these, ofthese hats for the police force.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
And I said look, we're creating, we're going
after a brand new vendor.
You know, the vendor is thesame vendor who does Disney the
hats for Disneyland.
We know that they're.
They're a good vendor.
But you know, it's our newrelationship.
Let's get samples made up.
Okay, I got a digital proofmade up.
I had the me, a one off sample.
(32:29):
I had the plant, the phantom,China, produce a sample of it
and this is going back 10 yearsago.
Had the makeup, a digitalsample of the of the hat.
Had to make an actual sample ofmy hat.
Had to prove the whole way.
Had the, the, the actualphysical sample, brought here
and ever through the entireprocess of chasing this guy for
(32:49):
approvals.
Yeah he's just, he's too busy.
He had these two important tobe able to get the approval.
I said look, we're not goingany further until we get the.
And then Chinese New Year'scame and he finally got me
approval about a week beforeChinese New Year.
I said look, you've missed yourwindow.
These things are now delayed atleast a month.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Because China shuts down for a month during Chinese
New Year.
And he was grumbling this outthere and we finally got him the
hats and there was a spellingmistake in the embroidery and I
went back to the original proofand the through the entire
process that misspelling wasthere and he signed off on it
(33:33):
four times, including a physicalsample that was in his hand.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
And this was 100% my fault, 100% hit my fault.
I was being unethical.
I wasn't taking care of thesituation.
I was a bad supplier.
You know they weren't gonna payfor this refusal.
Blah, blah, blah blah.
I made all the concessions inthe world.
I said, look, you know we'llfigure this out together, let's
(34:02):
work.
No, it's 100% you fault.
You need to take care of it.
I said, look, what you're gonnado is you're gonna give me back
the hats.
I'm gonna destroy them andwe're gonna stop doing business
together.
Because he was being unethical.
He kept calling me unethical.
He says I'm gonna ruin you withthis out there.
I said tell you what I don'twant you walking around with
(34:24):
5,000 hats that have a spellingmistake on it.
Give them back to me, I'll pickthem up.
I had them certified destroyedbecause you don't want hats
lying around with the policelogo on them that anybody can
have for security reasons.
I mean these were officialpolice hats and not only did I
(34:46):
sever a relationship with thepolice force, but it ruined my
relationship with the city.
And it was a quarter milliondollar client all told.
But it had to do with the factthat this guy started calling me
unethical.
After I tried to do everythingwithin my power to fix the
situation and make this about us.
(35:07):
And yes, we're both gonna takea hit on this.
There's no question, we're bothgonna take a hit on this, but
you need to take someresponsibility for this.
And his attitude was no, I'mgonna bully you as a supplier,
and I went, I'm done.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
And I'm done, and you look at these situations and
sometimes the customer.
You just need to let thecustomer be wrong.
Sometimes you need the customerto sit there and say you know
what?
That's your opinion.
You've made a decision, that'sthe way you want to do it.
It's your company.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
But I don't have to stick around and be a doormat.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I don't have to stick around and be a doormat.
Yeah, I think you've saidseveral things there that I
think is really key forlisteners.
You're like, how can I identifyif this is a relationship worth
continuing?
And the one thing I heard youtalk about is just summed up as
integrity.
Is this person operating from aplace of integrity, which means
they're gonna follow through ontheir commitments, they're
gonna be honest in theirdealings with you, they're gonna
(36:09):
be trustworthy and those kindsof things?
So I think that's one key thing.
The second is is there any sortof remorse or a sense of like?
We're in this together.
I recognize that I've donesomething wrong here.
I wanna fix it.
If there's no sense of like,there's no remorse, they can't
take responsibility or ownershipfor whatever.
(36:30):
Their pardon is it.
That's kind of a red flag.
And I think values is kind of.
One of the other things I heardyou say is are there values in
a line with my values?
And are they if there's adisconnect there and you just
can't get on the same page andI've had to walk away from
clients where those three thingswere not met, and it was
painful.
It was so painful in the momentwhen it happened, I was like
(36:53):
couldn't sleep over it.
But at the end of the day I waslike, well, there's not
integrity here, there's no senseof responsibility for their
part in the situation andthere's just a mismatch in value
.
So I have to just and that'swhat you just walk away and
realize, you know what I'vefired five clients in the last
30 years.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Those three factors are the only reason there's a
combination of those threefactors are the reason that I'm
just going through them in mymind right now.
I can bring it back to thosethree factors for every single
one of those clients Is that itwas the lack of integrity, it
was the lack of remorse and itwas the inability to sit there
and say you know what?
This is our problem.
(37:35):
You know when it was ourproblem.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Let's figure it out together.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
If it was a hundred percent my fault if I had, you
know, messed up.
Guess what?
You eat it.
You don't like it, but you eatit, and that's the way it is.
You know, if it is a hundredpercent your fault, you sit
there and you don't want aboutit, you don't complain about it.
That's why you build marginsinto jobs.
(38:00):
That's why you don't do thingsthat cost plus 2% And-.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
That scares me.
Exactly it terrifies.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Yeah, exactly, cost plus 2% is just.
That's like swearing to me.
But you sit there and say youbuild in a reasonable margin.
So if something like this goeswrong, you shrug your shoulders,
you bite your tongue and you goI'm sorry, let me fix this.
And you move on, because noneof us are perfect, none of us
(38:33):
are beyond making mistakes, noneof us are all knowing and all
seeing and can see around everysingle corner.
God knows, I can't.
And you know there are times inmy life where I've had to sit
there and go yeah, yeah, I, youknow I pooched that, I messed
that up.
I'm sorry, let me fix it foryou.
(38:56):
And yeah, and you, just, youjust move forward.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yeah, so good.
That was an awesome discussionon conflict.
My gosh, I'm in a master class.
I'm gonna like literally goback and listen and rewind and
listen again and listen againand have my children listen.
We're all gonna just sit aroundthe dinner table and be like
you guys, we're gonna talk aboutconflict tonight, listen in.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Well, I hope I offered some nuggets.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
I truly do you know, oh, totally, yeah, there's no
question.
Totally, totally, totally.
Let's shift gears a little bit.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Let's talk about.
Let's talk about misadventure.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Misadventure.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Misadventure.
We talked about that a lot alittle bit just now.
Actually, you just shared a bigtale of misadventure that you
had and from that experiencethat you had with this, you know
partner, where it just like allwent sour, lost this huge
account, had to walk away.
That's a massive, that's amassive disappointment.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I mean significant in terms of the relationship, the
time spent, the investment, themoney and all of that.
Exactly what happened?
What did you do?
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Well, it was a long conversation with my wife.
First and foremost, yeah To sayyou know those steaks we were
going to buy last week Might behamburger.
You remember that really nicevacation to wherever Might get
delayed six months, you know,but it's.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
We can laugh about it now.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
We can absolutely laugh about it now.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
I sure it was incredibly painful.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
It was, and it's scary.
It's absolutely terrifying whenyou sit there and say, okay,
that's not my entire income, butyeah it's, it's a nice piece of
it.
That just went away and youknow, it's not the first time
that's happened to me andhopefully it's the last.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
And plus business is emotional.
Let's be honest.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
This is extremely emotional and people.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
These are relationships that you had and
nobody wants a relationship togo south, you know, and and to
have to deal with like kind oflike the emotional impact of
that.
And then you get into thefinancial, like businesses.
No matter what anyone says,business is emotional.
It's just like you see theseimages of people and they're
just like, oh serious, all thetime in business and it's that
(41:18):
is just not true.
I've never met an entrepreneurthat doesn't take some.
You know it's it's it's apersonal thing.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Oh, I took it extremely personally.
Yeah, I took it extremelypersonally.
And you sit there and say, okay, what did I do wrong?
What you know?
How did what was my part in thesituation?
Did I, did I mess up?
You know, do I need to go backto these guys on my knees and
mea culpa?
Or or did I make the rightdecision?
You know?
Speaker 2 (41:49):
and okay, what do I?
Speaker 3 (41:50):
do now.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
You know what, now that, now that these people are
out of my life, is this a?
What can I learn from this?
You know how can I be betterfrom this and see what kind of
clients do I want moving forward?
And I think that you know,truthfully, I do almost no
business with government.
(42:12):
You know, in cities now andthere, and you could probably
trace it back to that to thatone situation where over the
next couple of years, Ibasically got myself out of
government business and I didmillions and millions and
millions of dollars with thework with healthcare and smoking
(42:33):
cessation, alcohol awarenessand drug addiction and realized
it was becoming bureaucratic.
I wasn't being able to dealwith the departments anymore.
I was having to deal withprocurement.
You know, everything was RFP,the relationships were, were not
existed anymore and I realizedI don't want that business.
And it allowed me to refocuswhat I did, why I did it, how I
(42:55):
did it and who I did it for, andI think you know in the end,
yes, I came out of it stronger,but I'll tell you there was
probably six months of realself-doubt that came out of that
going okay.
Have I really made a mistake?
Did I really do what I just did?
Speaker 2 (43:23):
How do you armor yourself in those moments?
That's, a six months ofself-doubt is a lot.
What did you do to personallybuild resilience in yourself
during those moments ofself-doubt, when you were
struggling?
What was it that got youthrough that to be able to take
the next step and move forward?
Speaker 3 (43:41):
There's.
There's a number of things.
There's a saying that I havethe glasses and either half full
or half empty, it's refillable,and that's been something
that's been with me from thetime I was a young man.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
I love that because it's so.
There's no pressure, no,there's no expectation.
Right, you release theexpectations of yourself and you
just what is what is, andthere's always potential and
there's always opportunity, andthere's never going to be an end
to whatever.
(44:15):
And that, just like the minuteyou said, that is just like, oh,
just feels good, like a nicecold glass of lemonade on a
summer day.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Exactly that's right.
Just just keep drinking.
You know, I was lucky enough tohave a father that was an
entrepreneur and you know, and Iwatched him go through the good
and the bad and the ugly, andwe never really talked about it
on a functional level as he wasgoing through it, but I watched
(44:43):
him and I watched him recoverand I watched him move forward
and I watched him, you know,take the ashes out of the, out
of the fire, and build, buildsomething new, you know, with it
.
And I think, realizing thatthat's possible and that that's
what you, you need to do, is tosay, okay, this blew up in my
(45:09):
face, yeah, this you know, allof a sudden I got shrapnel all
over my face.
My job is not to grab my kneesand rock back and forth, my job
is to grab to, you know,extricate the shrapnel from my
face, you know, stitch myself upnecessary, clean myself up and
realize what do I need to do tomake sure I don't get shrapnel
(45:29):
in the face ever again?
And I think that that's just,it's just a DNA thing, it's just
.
You know, I call me an optimist, call me whatever you want, but
I believe that the sun willalways come out eventually.
And it may not come outtomorrow, it may not come out
the day after that, buteventually the sun will shine
(45:52):
again.
And I just want to be therewhen the sun does shine.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
I love that.
I just want to be there whenthe sun shines again.
You know what that shows it'sjust a lot of beautiful long
suffering and patience.
You know, recognizing that whatit is that we want and hope for
and the deepest desires of ourhearts, is not always going to
be something that's going to bemost of the time, isn't going to
be realized overnight.
And in fact, isn't that thebeauty of it?
(46:20):
The beauty of it?
Knowing that, like those reallyspecial moments are so rare and
so fleeting, it makes them somuch more valuable, because the
struggle that it takes you toget there and the character
you've built along the way sothat when those moments do come,
you embrace them with suchhumility and like you know it
(46:40):
just, I think, just makes usstronger to be able to see it.
See it from that perspective.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
And I think it allows you to appreciate the winds
even more.
You know the small wins and thebig wins it allows you to sit
there and say I did it.
You know I actually, you know Igot myself up.
It's not the fact that you felldown seven times, it's not the
fact that you got up eight.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yes, and what did you learn when you fell down?
Because every time you'relearning something.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Every time I've fallen down, I've realized that
resilience is my friend,creativity is my friend,
adaptability is my friend, and Ithink those are the three
skills that I've gained over mylifetime that probably make me
who I am.
Is the adaptability, creativityand resilience?
(47:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (47:36):
I mean any successful , strong, entrepreneur, those
three qualities, are it manright Like?
You have to have all three ofthose if you really want to be
able to achieve anything.
That's a value that you wantfor yourself, for your family,
anything that's cool.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
It's realizing that I'm here for the long term.
You know I'm here for the longterm and I'm here for as long as
I'm here.
You know I'm not going to behere forever.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
I don't want to be here forever.
You know, I don't want to be150 years old.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
You don't.
I'd be 150, if I could be like150, but in a 40 year old body.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
That's right.
If you could look and feel likeyou do today in 150, you'd be
mafish, wouldn't that be awesome?
Yeah, you know, as long as Ihad the money to do the things
that I wanted to do, and justdidn't care anymore.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
I'm all for it.
Speaker 3 (48:30):
But you know, as I tell you, getting old is not for
sissies, you know?
I just look at it.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Well, there were.
None of us are sissies.
No, we're not sissies.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
We're all pushing the envelope, but I look at it and
sit there and go.
You know what it's, the lessonsthat I'm learning along the way
that I appreciate.
And if every day I learn alittle something.
If every day I could touchanother individual, if every day
I could help somebody be betteroff than they were the day
before, that's life.
(49:02):
Something else is gravy.
You know, I can't take themoney with me, I can't drive the
Mercedes into the hole with me,you know, it's just, that's
just not practical.
So you might as well just enjoythe ride as you have it and
appreciate the fact that one daythat ride ends and you just
(49:24):
want to live without regrets.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Live without regrets.
Amen brother.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
And sometimes that makes me a little, a little
reverent, but you know, what.
That's the way it is.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yeah, my gosh, ben, this has been such a phenomenal
conversation.
Oh, it's been fun.
I loved every minute of it.
I can't thank you enough forcoming on and sharing your
experience and these one, thewonderful stories that you've
shared from your own lifeexperience and just incredible
insights on on conflict and I'm,from all of the work that
(50:04):
you've done with brands andhelping them resolve conflict.
We didn't even get a chance totalk about branding.
Really Well, we can always haveanother conversation about
branding.
Can we have another one?
Will you come back?
Speaker 3 (50:15):
You know anytime you want.
I mean, Nicole, I love you, Ilove the work that you do.
I love how you take care ofyour clients.
I love the inspiration that youare on LinkedIn.
Like, people are not readingthe stories that you come up on
LinkedIn.
They're missing out.
You know, I've been wanting tobe on your podcast.
Before you had the podcast, youtold me you were going to be
(50:36):
starting a podcast and I said,nicole, I'm in.
I mean, I don't know what it'sgoing to be about, I don't know
what the format is going to be,but when you're ready to have me
on the show, I'm in.
So I am so happy we got achance to do this.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Oh, we're going to do it again.
This has been such a joy for me.
Every time I talk to you, I feellike I come away from our
conversation just a better.
How do I say this?
Every conversation we have, Icome away from it feeling more
(51:11):
confident in myself and who Iwant to be and show up in the
world as I come away from ourconversation, feeling challenged
to try to make a greater impactin the people that I'm serving
with around, and I'm humbled.
I'm always humbled after I havea conversation with you,
(51:31):
because you always help me.
The perspective that you sharealways teaches me something that
I need to learn or hear in thatmoment, and you've done that
for me today, so I'm verygrateful for that, thank you.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
Well, I'm appreciative of everything you
are and everything you do, so mything is is everybody listen to
this podcast, search out Nicole, go look at her website, go
look at her social media, dobusiness with her.
She does incredible stuff.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Likewise, likewise.
Speaker 3 (51:58):
Thank you I appreciate it, but it's you know
what people need to realizewhen they listen to this podcast
over and over again and all theguests that you have that you
are behind this thing being thereal talents, and people need to
pay attention to you and knowthat you're going to be there to
take care of them when you'reoff the air.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Oh, that's very kind, Very, very kind.
That means a lot to me, man Ben.
Look at us getting all sent inand all.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
It's a Friday afternoon, love fest.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Well, thank you so much again for coming on.
We are going to do this again.
There is going to be a part two.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
I would love it.
I'm in whenever you tell mewhen, so.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
And next time I want you to talk all about branding,
because I wanted to get a chanceto talk about that and we
didn't get it.
We weren't able to dive into it.
But thank you again for beingon the show.
And as we wrap up this episodeof tales of misadventure, we're
reminded that withentrepreneurship, there's no
straight path to success.
It's the unexpected twists andturns that shape our stories and
(53:01):
make them worth telling.
So embrace the misadventures inyour own life and let them
guide you towards your ownblessings.
Thank you for tuning in.
We'll be back soon with morecaptivating tales of
misadventure.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
Tales of Misadventure is produced, edited and
moderated by Julie Bicello, withBicello Media, music by Marcus
Way.
Special thanks to our amazingguests and the entire DMG
Digital team.
Visit us at dmgdigitalio to getaccess to all our podcast
interviews and other helpfulresources, and if you'd like to
get updates on the latest andgreatest, please sign up for our
(53:36):
email newsletter.
We'll see you next time foranother episode of Tales of
Misadventure.
Until then, keep fallingforward.
Hey there, thanks for joining us for Tales of
Misadventure, a podcast allabout business blunders.
On this podcast, NicoleDonnelly, founder of DMG Digital
, talks to entrepreneurs andlearns how they turn their
lemons into lemonade.
Dmg Digital is a contentmarketing agency focused on
helping manufacturers attractnew buyers through digital
(00:23):
self-serve.
Nicole Donnelly is a fourthgeneration entrepreneur, a girl,
mom and an avid traveler.
Now let's head into a tale ofmisadventure with your host,
Nicole Donnelly.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello and welcome to Tales of Misadventure, where
amazing entrepreneurs sharetheir stories of failure and how
they turn lemons into lemonade.
Today, I am so honored to bejoined by my dear friend, ben
Baker, and Ben is so great athelping organizations
communicate value inside the org.
Too many of us focus oncommunicating our value outside
(00:59):
our organization.
The challenge is, if peopleinside your organization don't
understand and believe in yourstory, what you do and why, and
who you do it for, they won't beable to communicate it to
clients, prospects or vendors.
For more than a quarter century, ben has been helping
(01:19):
organizations tell their story,build cultures around it, share
their vision, mission and goalsand drive change, all through
developing more effectiveinternal communication
strategies and processes.
Not only that, but Ben is alsoa published author of two
amazing books Powerful PersonalBrands, a Hands-On Guide to
(01:41):
Understanding Yours and LeadingBeyond a Crisis A Conversation
About what's Next.
On top of all that, ben is alsoa father and husband and
community leader volunteer, andalso he has been podcasting
since before podcasting was evena thing, so he is a legend in
(02:01):
the podcasting industry.
So, ladies and gentlemen,welcome Ben Baker to the show
today.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Hello Nicole, I am so excited about this Maybe a
legend in my own mind.
Let's get this started.
I mean, yes, I have beenpodcasting for 11 years, but I
got buddies of mine that havebeen doing this for 20.
So I'm not quite an OG, I'mright somewhere in the middle
there, but I've done this for ayear or two, so I got to shorten
(02:28):
that bio.
I'm sitting there going okay,all right.
Enough, it's enough.
You just sit there going, allright.
Just call me Ben, I'm happywith just Ben.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I love the name Ben.
My brother's name is Ben, so Ihear that name and it just warms
my heart, warms my heart to mysoul.
It's a beautiful name and Iwould just love to start.
So I'm just curious about whatwas it that brought you into
podcasting so long ago?
What was the thing that you'relike?
I want to do this.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Well, as I kept joking with you off air, I have
a great face for radio and about11, 12 years ago I was doing
some radio work with somefriends of mine and you know,
right with digital radio wasfirst coming on board and I
found that it was just stilted.
It was just, you know it is.
It was still that 23 and a halfminute process you know forever
(03:20):
.
For every half hour, every halfhour you got you have 23
minutes, it's, it's okay, it'sintro, and then you go out for
commercial.
Then you come back fromcommercial, then you talk for
five or 10 minutes, then you goout for commercial again and
then you bring it back and thenyou have to reiterate what you
said before the commercial andbring people back into the
conversation and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and so
for you know an hour you're,you're lucky if you get 42 to 46
(03:44):
minutes.
And it was just, it was, it wasthere and back.
And especially when you'retrying to have a conversation
with somebody, because I reallylike having interview radio, I
just found it really stilted.
And a friend of mine said youknow what you're going to love
podcasting, because you controlit, you know if you want to have
all your, your, your, yourcommercials at the front of the
(04:04):
show?
Have them at the front of theshow.
You want to have them all atthe end of the show?
Have them at the end of theshow.
If you want to have a block ofcommercials somewhere in the
middle, you can do that.
If you don't want to have anycommercials whatsoever, that's
on you as well, but it's it.
You control the horizontal, youcontrol the vertical and it
allows you to have more of areal life ongoing conversation
(04:26):
without constantly having to belook at the time and go okay, I
got to wrap this up and admit itin 32 seconds because the next
set of commercials is coming up.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
You're absolutely right.
I think it really does.
The format of podcasting allowsyou to have those deeper
conversations and just getdeeper and deeper and deeper,
because there is no you can,like you said, there's so much
flexibility on how it'sstructured.
I mean, there's some podcaststhat you can listen.
They're like three, four, fivehours long.
You know, I was on vacationwith my family this past month
(04:57):
in July and we did.
It was a road trip.
We went towards severalbeautiful national parks here in
the US and we listened to thishistory podcast on the Vikings
and it was.
It was literally hours andhours and it was riveting.
It was utterly riveting, and Iwas more.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Who knows, to the, to the host, you can do that, I
tell you.
You know, as much fun as I have, I can't be, I can't be
riveting for three hours.
I'll tell you that much.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
I was just amazed at how much knowledge he had and
detail about the egg, was ableto tell it in such a cool
storytelling way.
You know it was like reading abook, but listening it was just
so very, very cool.
So I totally love that tooabout podcasting and for your
audience.
It just allows them so muchflexibility because they can
listen when they want to, theycan, they can binge it if they
(05:44):
want to, multiple episodes andall of that so very very cool,
absolutely.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
I think it's a great medium.
And the great thing about themedium is there's lots of
different ways to unpack it.
You know, you and I will do 40,45 minutes, maybe a little bit
more, maybe a little bit less.
But we can unpack this thingand all of a sudden it can
become three or four five minutevideos, it can become
audiograms, it can become, youknow, memes.
(06:11):
There's all sorts of things youcan do with the material from
the podcast.
It can become training material, it can become white papers,
audiograms, heck.
My second book is a series ofpodcasts.
We took 16 or 20 podcasts, youknow, transcribed them, edited
them down, added it a little bit, or, you know, took a little
bit out and all of a sudden wehad our book, and you know.
(06:33):
So there's so much you can dowith the podcasting medium that
is beyond the actual podcastitself.
That just makes it.
It's just such a flexible,powerful medium.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Oh, you're so right.
We like to call it the contentwaterfall at our company.
You know you take that long formpiece of content, podcast, and
then it creates this awesomewaterfall, you know beautiful
waterfall, where you can justsplice out different video clips
, blogs, social media posts andit just lives in perpetuity and
you can just continue.
And, from a brandingperspective, the more you can
(07:06):
get that same consistentmessaging out over and over and
over, the more that's going tocreate those you know
connections for people thatwhenever they think of this
topic, they're going to think ofyour brand.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
I mean we do something calledfor clients we call them mini
podcasts where we find thatthere's lots of companies out
there that don't want a fullpodcast, they don't want to be
the rigidity of being in apodcast studio 52 weeks a year.
They just don't have the time,don't have the energy, don't
have enough to say or whateverthey don't think they have
enough to say.
(07:37):
So we create these 13 episodemini podcasts and not only do
you get 13 episodes of themsharing their thought leadership
or the thought leadership oftheir people or the thought
leadership of their clients over13 episodes, but you are able
to take that information andturn that into, as I said, white
papers.
You know becomes all sorts ofdifferent content short videos,
(08:03):
audiograms, posts so all of asudden you have hundreds of
pieces of content that come outof 13 episodes and it becomes
extremely powerful for companies.
You know that just need to beable to communicate with their
clients on a regular basis, butnot be in their face on a daily
basis.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So true Love, that Very cool.
Well, you know what, Ben?
As I was preparing for thisepisode, I really had a topic in
mind that I wanted.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Perfect.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I love it I was like man, I want to get Ben's take on
this, and that is conflict.
I saw that you did this reallycool show the other day with Con
on conflict was reallyinteresting to me, and I
recently interviewed someone onthe podcast and we were talking
all about conflict and conflictresolution and I just think this
is such an important topic forus, wherever we are in life,
(08:54):
because with our you knowpersonal lives, professional
lives, it is inevitable thatyou're going to encounter
conflict and I think thatthere's like this stigma around
conflict that it's just like ifyou're in conflict with someone
it's bad, you know, but I just,I would just love to get your
perspective.
I, I, um, I read this reallygreat book while I was on
(09:17):
vacation.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yes, j Shetty, yeah, oh my gosh, it's so good.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And he totally reframed this idea of conflict
and I'd love to get yourthoughts on conflict and in the
workplace and all of that.
but sure he says in this book?
He says what if we approached afight as a team?
The specter of disagreementbuilds like a wave in the ocean.
I love that visual.
As it approaches, it growstaller and more daunting.
(09:45):
But instead of turning awayfrom the wave to pretend you
don't see it, the two of youface it as it looms over you.
Can you keep your heads abovewater or will it crash on top of
you?
The key is understanding thatyour partner, or whoever it is
that you're in conflict with, isnot the wave.
The wave is the issue aboutwhich you disagree.
(10:05):
If the two of you approach ittogether, kicking in the same
direction, you can swim throughit side by side with a sense of
shared victory.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I love that.
Yeah, I love the way that heframes that with the analogies
of the waves, because the firstwave never kills you.
Yeah, the first wave neverkills you.
The first wave wakes you up andrealizes hey, listen, there's
something you need to payattention to.
But most people ignore thefirst wave and I think that the
(10:38):
reason we have the stigmaagainst conflict is that we
don't understand the language ofthe waiver.
We don't understand thelanguage of conflict.
We you have your lexicon, Ihave my lexicon.
You have your biases, I have mybiases.
You have your goals, your wants, your needs, your fears, your
aspirations, I have mine.
(11:00):
And we feel that we've gotten toa point in the world where it's
the shades of gray havedisappeared and there's this
feeling of black and white andwhether it's politics, whether
it's religion, whether it's allsorts of things, and we haven't
learned how to sit there and saylisten, none of us are 100%
(11:20):
right, none of us are 100% wrong.
There isn't my truth versus yourtruth, there's my opinion
versus your opinion.
There is a single truth outthere that probably none of us
understand and none of us willnever understand.
We can get closer to that truthtogether by combining my ideas
(11:41):
of what's right and your ideasof what's right, and coming up
with a common language thatenables us to attack this
together, to be able to look atthis thing and say, listen, we
don't understand this from eachother's point of view.
Okay, let's get your opinionsand my opinions and let's see if
we can come up with a thirdunderstanding of what the actual
(12:03):
reality is, because none of ustruly understand reality.
I mean, I'm having fights withpeople about AI today that are
not AI experts.
Everybody's got their opinionsabout.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
AI today, Everybody's you know who's an AI expert.
It's so new right, that's right.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
I'm six YouTubes ahead of you, so I'm an expert
on AI.
But everybody sits there andwants to claim that they are an
expert on AI.
People have been talking aboutAI for 90 years now and they
still don't understand what itcan be.
They understand what it is today, in its infancy.
(12:39):
It's not even in diapers yet.
It's just coming out of thewomb and it's in that initial
swaddling cloth.
You know, ai has got so much togo before it can crawl, rock
and run.
But we've all defined that it'seither evil or it's beneficial
and we're in this huge conflictabout it.
But I think the issue is thefact that none of us are willing
(13:02):
to admit that we're wrong.
None of us are willing to admitthat we don't understand, that
we don't have a fullunderstanding of what something
is and what something can be.
We do a wonderful exercise withclients.
Have you ever seen a graphicrecorder?
You know when keynote speakersget up and they have that
(13:23):
cartoon drawing that somebodydoes on the big blackboards
behind you and it shows thejourney of the conversation.
I've had that done for me manytimes on stage and they're great
because it gives this analogyof where you are.
The beautiful thing is that webring that into situations when
we're talking about where acompany is and where it's going,
(13:44):
and instead of you get peoplein the room where you know
there's dynamics and you knowthere's politics and you know
there's opinions and turf warsand all that.
If you can get them focused onthe drawing instead of each
other, then they can sit thereand say, well, no, no, we want
it to be like oh, yeah, okay.
And then all of a sudden youget these warring factions
(14:07):
collaborating on what thedrawing should be and where the
drawing should be, and it leadsto these breakthroughs based on
not focusing on each other andletting ego get in the way and
actually focusing on the problemitself.
And I think that's our biggestproblem.
We're not teaching kids at avery young age how to be
(14:28):
conflictual anymore and how tosit there and say it's not about
you, it's about the idea, andit's not about me being right
and you being wrong and the zerosum game.
It's an idea, it's a thought,it's a process and let's work
through it together.
Like we don't have debate teamsanymore, we don't have any of
(14:52):
the tools that we've had in thepast to enable kids to have a
language of conflict, to have alanguage of debate and be able
to sit there and say, okay,maybe there is a third opinion
or maybe your idea has merits,instead of everybody digging in
their heels.
So I've talked about this toolong, but it's I love so many,
(15:14):
like amazing nuggets.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I love the first thing you said about it's the
first wave that doesn't kill you.
Oh, that is such wisdom, right.
Sometimes that first waveknocks you and you're just like,
whoa, I gotta figure out how torecenter myself.
And I loved, too, what you saidabout ego, because you're
absolutely right on there.
It's like the sooner that wecan release the ego, the more
(15:37):
that we can really try tounderstand and separate
ourselves from you know, ego isus right Separate you from the
problem and try to look at itfrom this external vantage point
.
A bigger perspective of this ismore than just you.
There's a lot more at play here.
Take ego out of it.
How can we address this problem?
(15:58):
And if you're so right aboutdiscourse shifting and kids not
learning about how to, you know,see conflict this way?
What do you think needs tochange?
Or, you know, I'm a parent.
What is something that I can bedoing within my own family, you
know, with my kids, to helpfoster and encourage that sense
(16:20):
of like, leaning into conflictin a healthy way and releasing
ego?
What are some things, somestrategies that people can be
thinking about, that they canimplement in their workplaces,
in their homes, wherever they'reat, so that we can get back to
that healthy place?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I think we as parents have got to let our kids fall
in their face.
I truly think we've got to getkids out there and getting dirty
and letting them eat dirt again.
I truly admit I am a 1950sparent.
I am the dinosaur, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
You don't look like a dinosaur back.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
No, but I truly believe.
I mean my son at a very earlyage, less than six months old.
Stop breathing three times.
Okay, he almost died.
He had something called GERD,which is gastroesophical reflux
disease.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
My daughter same.
Thing.
Exactly you know, we sent himto the hospital.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
They figured it out and, from that point on, our
viewpoint is look, is hebleeding, is he breathing?
Okay, let him go.
And a lot of it comes down toparents enabling their kids to
discover things on their own,because if we're discovering
things for them, if we'recontinually holding their hand
(17:33):
and guiding the path, they'llnever figure that path out on
their own.
And you know and yes, the worldis a scary place and yes, there
are things that we need tothink but it's giving the kids
the tools to be able to havehealthy conversations.
When I was a kid, I was notallowed to leave the table when
(17:53):
the adults were talking.
I was to sit at the table andmy job was to be part of it.
I was expected to be part ofthe conversation.
Adults would ask me questions.
My son growing up was on thegolf team and played golf and a
lot of times he would walk on asa single and end up playing
(18:14):
with doctors and lawyers andaccountants and stuff people who
could take the day off and playin the middle of the day,
because he'd play at two o'clockor three o'clock in the
afternoon after school and helearned how to talk to adults
and to be able to haveconversations outside of his own
minutiae and his own head, andI think the more places we can
(18:36):
give our children the ability tobe curious, the ability to
understand that they don't knoweverything and that there is a
world to explore beyond theirown set of beliefs and challenge
them on that, I think we'resetting them up more for success
.
Maybe I'm wrong this is myviewpoint but I find that the
(19:02):
helicopter parenting and thethere, there, now, now everybody
gets a blue ribbon mentalityhasn't worked, so maybe we need
to try something else.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, I think you're onto something there with this
whole idea of self-discovery,right?
Because by giving your kids thefreedom or even in the
workplace people that you workwith, if you're a manager,
giving your team the freedom andletting go of the need to
control the situation andletting them have the freedom
and knowing you know whatthey're gonna go off on their
own, I'm gonna let them ridedown the street to Joe's house.
(19:35):
I'm not gonna see them thewhole way, but I'm gonna trust
that they're gonna get there andI'm gonna give them the freedom
and the confidence for them tofigure out how to do it.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, and maybe you tell the kids that when they get
to Joe's house they have toeither text you or they have to
call you to say that they'rethere.
That's not unreasonable.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
But giving them the opportunity to get on their
bikes themselves and go downthere and not have to have you
walk them every single time ordrive them every single time
they wanna go three blocks downto a neighbor's house is not an
unreasonable experience, and Ithink you're right.
For leaders, taking that samething into the workplace is the
same analogy we need to beworking with.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, because it's true, you're giving them the
ability to self discover forthemselves and have their own
experience without any sort offilter, right?
You're not filtering it forthem as a parent who's right
there next to them helping themwith whatever, or in the
workplace.
You're there with them tryingto help them solve this problem.
They get to filter it forthemselves and figure out for
(20:40):
themselves, and I can see howthat then would then lead them
to have more empathy for otherpeople, because there's not
someone that they're having toanswer to.
Do you know what I mean?
Like that's so fascinating.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
One of the best definitions of leadership I ever
heard was leadership from themiddle.
You're in the middle of thefray and some people need a
gentle push forward.
Some people might need a handback, pulled back, to pull them
forward every once a while, butmost people just need to know
that you're there.
When I was a leader, when I wasa leader, you were not sorry.
(21:15):
Yeah, oh geez.
You were not allowed to comeinto my office unless you had
two answers to the problem.
If you had a problem, you hadto come into my office with two
answers.
I may not like either one ofthem, but more than likely I'm
gonna let you try one of the twoof them or a combination.
So you had, I was giving, I wasempowering you.
(21:38):
My job is to empower you as aleader.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
And I think what's great about that, too, is that
you are they're buildingconfidence.
And the more confident peopleare, I find, the more
open-minded they are, becausethey realize there's not this
like self-consciousness aboutthe need to be right all the
time or else I'm not gonna beworthwhile or good, right, but
the more confidence you have,the more self-love you have for
(22:05):
yourself.
I think there's an opennessthere to accept, like I'm still
okay if this person believessomething differently than I do.
It's gonna be fine, we can findsomething together.
The other thing I'm curiousabout that I feel like may have
changed this a lot, is over time.
It's like we're in this now,now.
Now society, right, so likesocial media, people are just
(22:29):
tweeting and saying things andit's like instant communication,
right, but it's difficult inthe because of social media and
the situation that we have tohave these like extended
discourse situations, right,like it's just like there's a
tweet and it's just incendiary.
You know, rather than let'slike create a situation like
(22:50):
this where we can sit andconvers.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I mean, there's those too.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I mean, don't you find like it's a little bit
harder to have those becauseeverybody's just rushing around
all the time and people aren'ttaking the time.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
It's the thought process of it's left my fingers
so it's not my problem anymore.
You send an email, you send atweet, you post something online
, whatever.
It's now somebody else'sproblem and it's not taking
responsibility.
How many people on social mediaactually, once they've sent a
(23:23):
tweet, out, linked something onInstagram, whatever, go back and
they actually read the commentsand actually respond to their
own comments?
A very small percentage ofpeople actually do actually walk
into their own comment sectionand actually engage with the
people that are part of that.
So it's almost like a dump andleave situation and it's at.
(23:48):
You know it's absolvingyourself of responsibility.
And I think that because of that, horrible, hurtful things are
said.
You know, people can say thingswithout any retribution
whatsoever and people just moveon.
And people have accepted this,where if you actually have to
(24:09):
sit in the same room withsomebody, or over zoom or
whatever thing, and actuallyhave a discourse with somebody,
and somebody said to go heyNicole, what did you mean by
that?
And you actually have to sitthere and respond and you
actually have to takeresponsibility and
accountability for the wordsthat come out of your or the
actions that you've done.
Hopefully you're gonna be alittle bit more intentional
(24:34):
about what you do and what yousay.
And I think that social mediahas ruined communication.
It's ruined our ability notonly to communicate effectively
because of the asynchronousnature of it and when things get
lost and said unintentionallyor intentionally, and it also
(24:54):
gives us the inability to listen, and I think that listening is
the fine art of communicationthat most people have lost.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
That's so interesting .
Listening is the fine art ofcommunication that most people
have lost.
Oh man, that's so good.
Oh, I think a lot of the thingthat's missing with social media
, with listening too, is thatyou're not seeing people face to
face, and there's somethingabout facing someone when you're
(25:25):
having those difficultconversations, knowing that
there is a human person therewith eyes and a smile and a
mouth.
It takes social media, it takessome of that humanity away from
this human experience.
That is such a beautiful thing,and it makes it difficult to
listen when you can't see theperson and use an experience.
Listening with all of yoursenses, right, like, you're
(25:48):
limited, you're stunted, youonly have a few senses you can
use to understand the wholecomplexity of the situation.
And even if you are, it'susually a one-sided situation
where you're watching a video,right, you're not, or maybe
you're not, involved in whateverthe live event is.
So I love what you said thereabout listening.
Let's talk about that a littlebit more.
What do you think we need to doto be better listeners?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Well, I mean, it's social media is not social.
It isn't, it's one-waycommunication and it tends to be
for the vast majority of people.
Yes, there are people thatunderstand what social selling
is.
There are people thatcommunicate really effectively.
They engage back and forth incomments, but that's a rare
percentage of people.
What do we need to be bettereffective listeners?
(26:33):
What do we need to be bettereffective communicators?
I think the first thing we needto do is care we actually need
to care about the person on theother side of the conversation.
They can't just be some avatar,they can't just be some title
on the other end of acommunication piece, whether
(26:53):
it's email, a tweet, a textmessage, whatever.
It's a human being and thathuman being has hopes, wants,
feeds, fears, needs and desires.
That human being is eitherhaving a good day or having a
bad day.
That human being may have asick parent, that human being
may have a sick child, and youknow.
(27:15):
And therefore, whatever you sayimpacts that person in ways
that you may never understand.
And I think the more human weare to each other and the more
humane we are with each other,the more we have the ability to
have meaningful conversationsand be able to sit there and say
(27:36):
you know what the conversationis about, isn't about me, it's
about we, it's about both of us.
It's not about just how bad myday is, it's how are you doing?
And mean it like, actually asksomebody how are they doing?
And not go to the next questionwhen they say, yeah, I'm fine.
Well, are you really fine?
Or are you just saying that forpolitical expediency?
(27:57):
No, truly, how are you doingand be willing to take the 5, 10
, 15, 20 minutes it takes forthat person to unpack, if they
need to unpack?
And I think that, as you said,because we are such a busy
society, because we've becomesuch instantaneous gratification
and it's about us throughsocial media and through the
(28:23):
world, and we see the worldthrough our own lenses and we
are becoming more narcissisticas a society.
We need to be conscious aboutthat and realize that other
people are not viewing the worldthe same way that you do.
They don't care about the samethings that you do.
They don't feel the same thingsthat you do are important.
(28:44):
And if you really truly want toknow them, you need to
understand how they see theworld and what are the things
that they matter to them if youreally want to have that
relationship.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
So good, so my next this is just so great.
Then I could just like can wejust talk all day long?
Sure.
Like you and I are likeeverything you're saying is just
it's like hitting me right inmy heart and it's just
everything I want to hear, needto hear, and it's so powerful
(29:18):
and impactful and it'schallenging me in so many ways
to think about my relationshipsand how I can improve, and so
I'm just really appreciative andinspired by everything you
shared.
It's super awesome.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Let me give the caveat to this.
I am not perfect.
There are times I unload onpeople.
There are times that I sitthere like what the heck do you
mean by that?
And I really don't care.
I'm not a perfect husband, I'mnot a perfect leader.
You know what.
We are all going to havemoments of our own self need,
(29:55):
and there are times we justdon't really care about what
other people have to say andwhat other people need.
We just need to get stuff done,and but we need.
We need to be conscious of thatand realize that that should be
an exception, not a rule.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I think that's a good point.
I also think what you're sayingis is like, as we're trying to
cultivate and become betterlisteners, it's so important
that we bring forgiveness intothat forgiveness for ourselves
and forgiveness for other peopleand realizing we are not
perfect, people, I'm not perfect, you're not perfect and so,
like the more that we can try toreally lean into.
(30:33):
I am going to listen to thisand I'm going to forgive
whatever and come into it with,like this I have forgiveness.
How can I cultivate forgivenessrather than I mean how do you?
Yeah, I just think that's very,very cool, but I do have a
follow up question.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
When would you say when?
How can you identify whenconflict is truly reached or
crossed a line where it's likethis isn't working, this is
really not a relationship thatis worth continuing pursuing, or
or it's like unhelp.
You know it's an unhealthyconflict.
How can you?
(31:10):
What would you advise forpeople when they're trying to
suss out like a conflict theymay be having to identify?
Is this something good, thispursuing, or how was your advice
there?
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Do you want an example?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
I'll change names and locations to protect the
innocent.
But I had a client that was afairly large client, that was,
which was attached to a muchlarger client.
It was a police departmentattached to a city.
Okay, so the relationship wasintertwined and the person that
I dealt with in the police forcechanged and, at the same time,
(31:50):
my vendor changed.
One of my vendors went out ofbusiness.
We had a new vendor and thiswas something as simple as as
hats, baseball caps for thepolice force, and they needed
three to 5,000 of these, ofthese hats for the police force.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
And I said look, we're creating, we're going
after a brand new vendor.
You know, the vendor is thesame vendor who does Disney the
hats for Disneyland.
We know that they're.
They're a good vendor.
But you know, it's our newrelationship.
Let's get samples made up.
Okay, I got a digital proofmade up.
I had the me, a one off sample.
(32:29):
I had the plant, the phantom,China, produce a sample of it
and this is going back 10 yearsago.
Had the makeup, a digitalsample of the of the hat.
Had to make an actual sample ofmy hat.
Had to prove the whole way.
Had the, the, the actualphysical sample, brought here
and ever through the entireprocess of chasing this guy for
(32:49):
approvals.
Yeah he's just, he's too busy.
He had these two important tobe able to get the approval.
I said look, we're not goingany further until we get the.
And then Chinese New Year'scame and he finally got me
approval about a week beforeChinese New Year.
I said look, you've missed yourwindow.
These things are now delayed atleast a month.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Because China shuts down for a month during Chinese
New Year.
And he was grumbling this outthere and we finally got him the
hats and there was a spellingmistake in the embroidery and I
went back to the original proofand the through the entire
process that misspelling wasthere and he signed off on it
(33:33):
four times, including a physicalsample that was in his hand.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
And this was 100% my fault, 100% hit my fault.
I was being unethical.
I wasn't taking care of thesituation.
I was a bad supplier.
You know they weren't gonna payfor this refusal.
Blah, blah, blah blah.
I made all the concessions inthe world.
I said, look, you know we'llfigure this out together, let's
(34:02):
work.
No, it's 100% you fault.
You need to take care of it.
I said, look, what you're gonnado is you're gonna give me back
the hats.
I'm gonna destroy them andwe're gonna stop doing business
together.
Because he was being unethical.
He kept calling me unethical.
He says I'm gonna ruin you withthis out there.
I said tell you what I don'twant you walking around with
(34:24):
5,000 hats that have a spellingmistake on it.
Give them back to me, I'll pickthem up.
I had them certified destroyedbecause you don't want hats
lying around with the policelogo on them that anybody can
have for security reasons.
I mean these were officialpolice hats and not only did I
(34:46):
sever a relationship with thepolice force, but it ruined my
relationship with the city.
And it was a quarter milliondollar client all told.
But it had to do with the factthat this guy started calling me
unethical.
After I tried to do everythingwithin my power to fix the
situation and make this about us.
(35:07):
And yes, we're both gonna takea hit on this.
There's no question, we're bothgonna take a hit on this, but
you need to take someresponsibility for this.
And his attitude was no, I'mgonna bully you as a supplier,
and I went, I'm done.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
And I'm done, and you look at these situations and
sometimes the customer.
You just need to let thecustomer be wrong.
Sometimes you need the customerto sit there and say you know
what?
That's your opinion.
You've made a decision, that'sthe way you want to do it.
It's your company.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
But I don't have to stick around and be a doormat.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I don't have to stick around and be a doormat.
Yeah, I think you've saidseveral things there that I
think is really key forlisteners.
You're like, how can I identifyif this is a relationship worth
continuing?
And the one thing I heard youtalk about is just summed up as
integrity.
Is this person operating from aplace of integrity, which means
they're gonna follow through ontheir commitments, they're
gonna be honest in theirdealings with you, they're gonna
(36:09):
be trustworthy and those kindsof things?
So I think that's one key thing.
The second is is there any sortof remorse or a sense of like?
We're in this together.
I recognize that I've donesomething wrong here.
I wanna fix it.
If there's no sense of like,there's no remorse, they can't
take responsibility or ownershipfor whatever.
(36:30):
Their pardon is it.
That's kind of a red flag.
And I think values is kind of.
One of the other things I heardyou say is are there values in
a line with my values?
And are they if there's adisconnect there and you just
can't get on the same page andI've had to walk away from
clients where those three thingswere not met, and it was
painful.
It was so painful in the momentwhen it happened, I was like
(36:53):
couldn't sleep over it.
But at the end of the day I waslike, well, there's not
integrity here, there's no senseof responsibility for their
part in the situation andthere's just a mismatch in value
.
So I have to just and that'swhat you just walk away and
realize, you know what I'vefired five clients in the last
30 years.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Those three factors are the only reason there's a
combination of those threefactors are the reason that I'm
just going through them in mymind right now.
I can bring it back to thosethree factors for every single
one of those clients Is that itwas the lack of integrity, it
was the lack of remorse and itwas the inability to sit there
and say you know what?
This is our problem.
(37:35):
You know when it was ourproblem.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Let's figure it out together.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
If it was a hundred percent my fault if I had, you
know, messed up.
Guess what?
You eat it.
You don't like it, but you eatit, and that's the way it is.
You know, if it is a hundredpercent your fault, you sit
there and you don't want aboutit, you don't complain about it.
That's why you build marginsinto jobs.
(38:00):
That's why you don't do thingsthat cost plus 2% And-.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
That scares me.
Exactly it terrifies.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Yeah, exactly, cost plus 2% is just.
That's like swearing to me.
But you sit there and say youbuild in a reasonable margin.
So if something like this goeswrong, you shrug your shoulders,
you bite your tongue and you goI'm sorry, let me fix this.
And you move on, because noneof us are perfect, none of us
(38:33):
are beyond making mistakes, noneof us are all knowing and all
seeing and can see around everysingle corner.
God knows, I can't.
And you know there are times inmy life where I've had to sit
there and go yeah, yeah, I, youknow I pooched that, I messed
that up.
I'm sorry, let me fix it foryou.
(38:56):
And yeah, and you, just, youjust move forward.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yeah, so good.
That was an awesome discussionon conflict.
My gosh, I'm in a master class.
I'm gonna like literally goback and listen and rewind and
listen again and listen againand have my children listen.
We're all gonna just sit aroundthe dinner table and be like
you guys, we're gonna talk aboutconflict tonight, listen in.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Well, I hope I offered some nuggets.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
I truly do you know, oh, totally, yeah, there's no
question.
Totally, totally, totally.
Let's shift gears a little bit.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Let's talk about.
Let's talk about misadventure.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Misadventure.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Misadventure.
We talked about that a lot alittle bit just now.
Actually, you just shared a bigtale of misadventure that you
had and from that experiencethat you had with this, you know
partner, where it just like allwent sour, lost this huge
account, had to walk away.
That's a massive, that's amassive disappointment.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I mean significant in terms of the relationship, the
time spent, the investment, themoney and all of that.
Exactly what happened?
What did you do?
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Well, it was a long conversation with my wife.
First and foremost, yeah To sayyou know those steaks we were
going to buy last week Might behamburger.
You remember that really nicevacation to wherever Might get
delayed six months, you know,but it's.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
We can laugh about it now.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
We can absolutely laugh about it now.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
I sure it was incredibly painful.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
It was, and it's scary.
It's absolutely terrifying whenyou sit there and say, okay,
that's not my entire income, butyeah it's, it's a nice piece of
it.
That just went away and youknow, it's not the first time
that's happened to me andhopefully it's the last.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
And plus business is emotional.
Let's be honest.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
This is extremely emotional and people.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
These are relationships that you had and
nobody wants a relationship togo south, you know, and and to
have to deal with like kind oflike the emotional impact of
that.
And then you get into thefinancial, like businesses.
No matter what anyone says,business is emotional.
It's just like you see theseimages of people and they're
just like, oh serious, all thetime in business and it's that
(41:18):
is just not true.
I've never met an entrepreneurthat doesn't take some.
You know it's it's it's apersonal thing.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Oh, I took it extremely personally.
Yeah, I took it extremelypersonally.
And you sit there and say, okay, what did I do wrong?
What you know?
How did what was my part in thesituation?
Did I, did I mess up?
You know, do I need to go backto these guys on my knees and
mea culpa?
Or or did I make the rightdecision?
You know?
Speaker 2 (41:49):
and okay, what do I?
Speaker 3 (41:50):
do now.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
You know what, now that, now that these people are
out of my life, is this a?
What can I learn from this?
You know how can I be betterfrom this and see what kind of
clients do I want moving forward?
And I think that you know,truthfully, I do almost no
business with government.
(42:12):
You know, in cities now andthere, and you could probably
trace it back to that to thatone situation where over the
next couple of years, Ibasically got myself out of
government business and I didmillions and millions and
millions of dollars with thework with healthcare and smoking
(42:33):
cessation, alcohol awarenessand drug addiction and realized
it was becoming bureaucratic.
I wasn't being able to dealwith the departments anymore.
I was having to deal withprocurement.
You know, everything was RFP,the relationships were, were not
existed anymore and I realizedI don't want that business.
And it allowed me to refocuswhat I did, why I did it, how I
(42:55):
did it and who I did it for, andI think you know in the end,
yes, I came out of it stronger,but I'll tell you there was
probably six months of realself-doubt that came out of that
going okay.
Have I really made a mistake?
Did I really do what I just did?
Speaker 2 (43:23):
How do you armor yourself in those moments?
That's, a six months ofself-doubt is a lot.
What did you do to personallybuild resilience in yourself
during those moments ofself-doubt, when you were
struggling?
What was it that got youthrough that to be able to take
the next step and move forward?
Speaker 3 (43:41):
There's.
There's a number of things.
There's a saying that I havethe glasses and either half full
or half empty, it's refillable,and that's been something
that's been with me from thetime I was a young man.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
I love that because it's so.
There's no pressure, no,there's no expectation.
Right, you release theexpectations of yourself and you
just what is what is, andthere's always potential and
there's always opportunity, andthere's never going to be an end
to whatever.
(44:15):
And that, just like the minuteyou said, that is just like, oh,
just feels good, like a nicecold glass of lemonade on a
summer day.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Exactly that's right.
Just just keep drinking.
You know, I was lucky enough tohave a father that was an
entrepreneur and you know, and Iwatched him go through the good
and the bad and the ugly, andwe never really talked about it
on a functional level as he wasgoing through it, but I watched
(44:43):
him and I watched him recoverand I watched him move forward
and I watched him, you know,take the ashes out of the, out
of the fire, and build, buildsomething new, you know, with it
.
And I think, realizing thatthat's possible and that that's
what you, you need to do, is tosay, okay, this blew up in my
(45:09):
face, yeah, this you know, allof a sudden I got shrapnel all
over my face.
My job is not to grab my kneesand rock back and forth, my job
is to grab to, you know,extricate the shrapnel from my
face, you know, stitch myself upnecessary, clean myself up and
realize what do I need to do tomake sure I don't get shrapnel
(45:29):
in the face ever again?
And I think that that's just,it's just a DNA thing, it's just
.
You know, I call me an optimist, call me whatever you want, but
I believe that the sun willalways come out eventually.
And it may not come outtomorrow, it may not come out
the day after that, buteventually the sun will shine
(45:52):
again.
And I just want to be therewhen the sun does shine.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
I love that.
I just want to be there whenthe sun shines again.
You know what that shows it'sjust a lot of beautiful long
suffering and patience.
You know, recognizing that whatit is that we want and hope for
and the deepest desires of ourhearts, is not always going to
be something that's going to bemost of the time, isn't going to
be realized overnight.
And in fact, isn't that thebeauty of it?
(46:20):
The beauty of it?
Knowing that, like those reallyspecial moments are so rare and
so fleeting, it makes them somuch more valuable, because the
struggle that it takes you toget there and the character
you've built along the way sothat when those moments do come,
you embrace them with suchhumility and like you know it
(46:40):
just, I think, just makes usstronger to be able to see it.
See it from that perspective.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
And I think it allows you to appreciate the winds
even more.
You know the small wins and thebig wins it allows you to sit
there and say I did it.
You know I actually, you know Igot myself up.
It's not the fact that you felldown seven times, it's not the
fact that you got up eight.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yes, and what did you learn when you fell down?
Because every time you'relearning something.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Every time I've fallen down, I've realized that
resilience is my friend,creativity is my friend,
adaptability is my friend, and Ithink those are the three
skills that I've gained over mylifetime that probably make me
who I am.
Is the adaptability, creativityand resilience?
(47:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (47:36):
I mean any successful , strong, entrepreneur, those
three qualities, are it manright Like?
You have to have all three ofthose if you really want to be
able to achieve anything.
That's a value that you wantfor yourself, for your family,
anything that's cool.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
It's realizing that I'm here for the long term.
You know I'm here for the longterm and I'm here for as long as
I'm here.
You know I'm not going to behere forever.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
I don't want to be here forever.
You know, I don't want to be150 years old.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
You don't.
I'd be 150, if I could be like150, but in a 40 year old body.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
That's right.
If you could look and feel likeyou do today in 150, you'd be
mafish, wouldn't that be awesome?
Yeah, you know, as long as Ihad the money to do the things
that I wanted to do, and justdidn't care anymore.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
I'm all for it.
Speaker 3 (48:30):
But you know, as I tell you, getting old is not for
sissies, you know?
I just look at it.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Well, there were.
None of us are sissies.
No, we're not sissies.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
We're all pushing the envelope, but I look at it and
sit there and go.
You know what it's, the lessonsthat I'm learning along the way
that I appreciate.
And if every day I learn alittle something.
If every day I could touchanother individual, if every day
I could help somebody be betteroff than they were the day
before, that's life.
(49:02):
Something else is gravy.
You know, I can't take themoney with me, I can't drive the
Mercedes into the hole with me,you know, it's just, that's
just not practical.
So you might as well just enjoythe ride as you have it and
appreciate the fact that one daythat ride ends and you just
(49:24):
want to live without regrets.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Live without regrets.
Amen brother.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
And sometimes that makes me a little, a little
reverent, but you know, what.
That's the way it is.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yeah, my gosh, ben, this has been such a phenomenal
conversation.
Oh, it's been fun.
I loved every minute of it.
I can't thank you enough forcoming on and sharing your
experience and these one, thewonderful stories that you've
shared from your own lifeexperience and just incredible
insights on on conflict and I'm,from all of the work that
(50:04):
you've done with brands andhelping them resolve conflict.
We didn't even get a chance totalk about branding.
Really Well, we can always haveanother conversation about
branding.
Can we have another one?
Will you come back?
Speaker 3 (50:15):
You know anytime you want.
I mean, Nicole, I love you, Ilove the work that you do.
I love how you take care ofyour clients.
I love the inspiration that youare on LinkedIn.
Like, people are not readingthe stories that you come up on
LinkedIn.
They're missing out.
You know, I've been wanting tobe on your podcast.
Before you had the podcast, youtold me you were going to be
(50:36):
starting a podcast and I said,nicole, I'm in.
I mean, I don't know what it'sgoing to be about, I don't know
what the format is going to be,but when you're ready to have me
on the show, I'm in.
So I am so happy we got achance to do this.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Oh, we're going to do it again.
This has been such a joy for me.
Every time I talk to you, I feellike I come away from our
conversation just a better.
How do I say this?
Every conversation we have, Icome away from it feeling more
(51:11):
confident in myself and who Iwant to be and show up in the
world as I come away from ourconversation, feeling challenged
to try to make a greater impactin the people that I'm serving
with around, and I'm humbled.
I'm always humbled after I havea conversation with you,
(51:31):
because you always help me.
The perspective that you sharealways teaches me something that
I need to learn or hear in thatmoment, and you've done that
for me today, so I'm verygrateful for that, thank you.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
Well, I'm appreciative of everything you
are and everything you do, so mything is is everybody listen to
this podcast, search out Nicole, go look at her website, go
look at her social media, dobusiness with her.
She does incredible stuff.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Likewise, likewise.
Speaker 3 (51:58):
Thank you I appreciate it, but it's you know
what people need to realizewhen they listen to this podcast
over and over again and all theguests that you have that you
are behind this thing being thereal talents, and people need to
pay attention to you and knowthat you're going to be there to
take care of them when you'reoff the air.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Oh, that's very kind, Very, very kind.
That means a lot to me, man Ben.
Look at us getting all sent inand all.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
It's a Friday afternoon, love fest.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Well, thank you so much again for coming on.
We are going to do this again.
There is going to be a part two.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
I would love it.
I'm in whenever you tell mewhen, so.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
And next time I want you to talk all about branding,
because I wanted to get a chanceto talk about that and we
didn't get it.
We weren't able to dive into it.
But thank you again for beingon the show.
And as we wrap up this episodeof tales of misadventure, we're
reminded that withentrepreneurship, there's no
straight path to success.
It's the unexpected twists andturns that shape our stories and
(53:01):
make them worth telling.
So embrace the misadventures inyour own life and let them
guide you towards your ownblessings.
Thank you for tuning in.
We'll be back soon with morecaptivating tales of
misadventure.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
Tales of Misadventure is produced, edited and
moderated by Julie Bicello, withBicello Media, music by Marcus
Way.
Special thanks to our amazingguests and the entire DMG
Digital team.
Visit us at dmgdigitalio to getaccess to all our podcast
interviews and other helpfulresources, and if you'd like to
get updates on the latest andgreatest, please sign up for our
(53:36):
email newsletter.
We'll see you next time foranother episode of Tales of
Misadventure.
Until then, keep fallingforward.
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