BONUS EPISODE 1: Underground Sea turns SMC on with Spreadsheets

NOTE: This episode has significant audio quality issues for the first half of the podcast eventually we switch platforms and it becomes more tolerable but the information was so good we couldn't scrap it

Underground Sea takes us on the journey to his masochistic lifestyle

Todays episode covers

• The sadomasochist grid
• types of submissives
• BDSM love languages

Find Underground Sea on Fetlife

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, well, well, go ahead and open up your ears,
your mind and whatever else youneed.
You're listening to Talk DirtyTo Me.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello everyone and welcome back to Talk Dirty To Me
, the podcast where we'refriends with four different
perspectives on king fetish andsex talk dirty to one another.
Today we have Stephanie Slateand the Queen of Spankos.
Oh, hi there, tosan Aouf, asthough the king oracle.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
Oh hi.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Myself, casey Sammy, a your neighborhood femdom, oh
hello, and the ceremony is here.
She was having some technicaldifficulties with her computer
so she's fixing it and thenshe's going to hop right on.
So she will join us shortly,but today we're going to get
started because we have a guestfor you.
Underground Sea has attendedkink events for 20 plus years.

(01:03):
He presents nationally to helppeople explain and understand
each other's kink, especiallysubmission.
He serves on advisory board forDOM CON BDSM Weekend
Conventions.
Previously he wrote a BDSMcolumn for FearlessPresscom,
represented BDSM in collegecampuses and mainstream forums

(01:23):
and chaired Austin TNG for fouryears.
He spits time between Austinand DC.
He performs with the DC KinkyBerlesque and Comedy Troop.
He helped keep Austin weird byarranging fetish nights where he
wrote, performed in and DJedmusic for fetish shows.
Bdsm influences his artisticexpression in the form of fetish

(01:46):
photography, djing music, dance, writing and kinky standup
comedy.
Please say hello or so Happy tohave you here.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
Hello everybody, thank you for having me here.
I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, I'm so happy to have you because we haven't had
anybody specifically here totalk about submission on a level
that I think that you can, sothis is fantastic.

Speaker 4 (02:07):
I'm happy to represent.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
So how young were you when you discovered your kink?

Speaker 4 (02:15):
Very young, very young.
I was as far back as I canremember.
My earliest memories are when Iwas about five.
Five.
I remember, yeah, I rememberliking mainstream films, stories
and being intrigued by them.
I might not have fullyunderstood my response at that

(02:35):
time, I just knew I wasintrigued by them and replay
some scenes through my headagain and again.
I sometimes myself into them.
To give you an example, I wasintrigued by the Cinderella
story.
Oh really, yeah, I felt bad forher Cinderella, just like the
one that I was doing.
But there was a part of me thatwas like so her cool
step-sisters and her coolstep-mother beat her and

(02:56):
prettier, more serving when youdo her.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Tell me more, so okay , so your kink is severe,
submissive, right?
Yes, that's correct.
And are you also masochistic?
I am Okay.
What else would you classifyyourself as?

Speaker 4 (03:20):
I think those are the two broad things where each of
those terms is not so.
You can go further within each,but, yes, you have to identify
the both of them.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
So it's earliest five .
And then you discovered it whenyou're watching mainstream
media and stuff.
So, after Cinderella, what wasthe first moment where you knew
you had this within you?
And then you connected it withrealizing oh, this is kink.
It's a thing, submission is athing.

Speaker 4 (03:49):
Yeah, well, I, so I had that interest.
You know it would come out inthings that would deal with what
I did with my action figures,what I did in games like Captain
Spy and stories I wrote.
My writing teachers and Englishteachers probably wondered
about me, like what's going?
on with this game, but when Ifirst so I had this notion that

(04:12):
they might be others like me.
But I wasn't sure.
And the first realization thatI had that there are others like
me is when I came across thisadult magazine.
My elder brother about a coupleof years, 10 and a half years
older than me, he found someadult magazines.
So you know what brothers?
Hey, look what I found.
You should have it with me.
And one of those had thisspecial edition on PBSF.

(04:37):
It blew me away.
It was an amazing moment.
It had photos that's the firstthing I saw.
It had stories.
It had personal ads.
So I came to see there wereothers like me that were looking
for each other and it had aglossary.
So that's how I learned whatthe word fetish meant, I mean.

(04:58):
Then I went yeah, yeah.
So I found out about it.
Now, knowing what some of thesewords were to look for, or that
foreign has these things, Iwent looking for more, found
more books, found more content,eventually found a way to the
internet, found out that theinternet had resources for
things, and through that I foundout about the local organizing.

(05:19):
So that's how we Can you saythat again.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
You found out about what.

Speaker 4 (05:25):
The local organized, oh gosh, Munches socials.
Okay.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
And how old were you at that point?

Speaker 4 (05:33):
So timeline I first learned that there was a name
for all this, that realization Ihad through that magazine.
I was about 11.
11, okay, and so graduallythrough middle school.
Through high school I learnedmore about it, but finding
something new there coming tocollege gave me I actually back
up.
One of the big discoveries ofrealization was doing high

(05:57):
school and I came across thisbook called Men in Love by Nancy
Friede.
It is a compilation of sexualtendencies by men with some
academic commentary, and so thatexpanded my awareness of things
in my interest.
That's how I learned what theword said, or massacred, in that
.
Okay, I first encountered thatterm through that book and then,

(06:19):
by the time I got to college, Iknew that there were magazines
dedicated specifically to kick.
Now you go to an age record,who will store if they're
starting to you get somepublication?
I just told them that I foundmy way through the internet.
Okay, yeah, and so that's thetime.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Amazing.
And so are you LGBTQ or are youstraight?
I?

Speaker 4 (06:41):
identify as straight.
Okay, maybe an aspect, so Idon't think that, but I'm not
driven to your conventionalsexuality.
I told you that I used to seekout porn, not for content that
seemed porn, but to be able tofind bits of it as a, and I

(07:04):
perfectly happy doing kink thatdoesn't include sex.
That can feel complete, Amazing.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
So another person that practices kink and it
doesn't involve sex.
Yeah, I love it.
Same here too.
Real quick, everybody ourfavorite, sarah Marie, has
joined us.
Yay, she forgot her microphone.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
It's me, hi.
There she is, hello Hi.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
She will be joining the conversation now.
What?

Speaker 4 (07:36):
am I.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
This is just all of the good stuff.
Obviously we're talking to theC as I understand it.
Can I call you?

Speaker 4 (07:43):
the C?

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yes, I'm the C For short.
That's longer.
So C do you live at 24, sevenor just when it's convenient?

Speaker 4 (07:59):
I live it constantly in the sense that it's a part of
my identity.
Most of my social activitycenters around kink.
We're in two events, okaySocial events, nature, things
like that, or other socialactivities with people I know in
the community.
So it's a constant timeidentity.
That way I often I engage inactual activities like play

(08:25):
sessions and stuff.
I would say that's notnecessarily constant, but my
style of playing is also a bitdifferent.
What is your style of playing?
It's more along the lines ofjust the energy and the good
which you might say falls underthe mental realm of things.
You go to the party, you'll seepeople in flying and things

(08:45):
like that, and I can also have ascene, a place scene and feel
entirely, completely without anyhands on it.
Okay, so it's more just thatthan DS5.
That is what the claims.
There you go so you can havethat through just even a short
extended course of the day, justexchanging techniques with

(09:08):
somebody who carried out.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, so do you have go on Tessie.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
So I wanted to know, since you say that it's like
part of your full identity, doyou have, like life
responsibilities that requireyou to be more dominant, like,
do you run a team or anythinglike that?
And if you do like, how doesthat work out for you?

Speaker 4 (09:34):
So I have leadership roles in different scenarios
professionally, school,academically or just in terms of
even some roles that are playedin the community.
I think personality and rolepreference are two things that
some may align or may not becomeentirely independent.

(09:55):
So you'll find people who havesuper dominant personalities,
who identify submissive, andyou'll find people who have
perhaps even timid or very youknow I've used that word timid
you know timid personalities arewhat they get out of them, it's
dominance.
And then you know you can haveit a way around.

(10:15):
You can have people with kindof personalities who get out
from submission and vice versa.
So I'd say personality guys, I'mkind of in the middle.
You know I don't need to be incharge, but I don't look to be
submissive in every day scenarioeither.
So, for instance, if somebodyat work or in some other context

(10:38):
is being overbearing in anuninvited way, I resent that and
you know, depending on thesituation, whether it's
something small or that is fine,whether I step up, step at
least in or not, just depends onthe situation.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Okay, and do you have ?
Do you have a dom?
I currently have play partnersPlay partners Are you?

Speaker 1 (11:03):
looking for one like long term, what's if you I don't
know, I was about to say likebuild a dom, like build a bear,
but that would be ridiculous.
But like, if you you're sayingplay partners, which sounds like
you haven't found the rightconnection or partnership, what
would you say is what you'relooking for?

(11:24):
And like full term, full timedom.

Speaker 4 (11:29):
Well, to draw an analogy, I'll answer that
question as well and also thiselaborate a bit.
To draw an analogy with justdata, might come across somebody
who's had some relationshipsbut at the current point in time
they're dating a few people.
So it's kind of like that Timesin the past where I said I had

(11:50):
a dom because I had arelationship with somebody.
In that way, currently I am, Ihave play partners, and that's
also a fun place to be.
But in terms of a long termpartner, I can talk about what I
might want in a companionship,and then you know so.

(12:12):
So I've got you can say I'vegot two separate drives that
overlap and one of the one ofthose drives is for
companionship and one is forsubmission.
And I can imagine differentways of that happening, and one

(12:34):
scenario is even to have aromantic companionship for the
most submissive and then perhapseven collectively submit to the
same dom.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
That sounds like fun.

Speaker 4 (12:48):
That's interesting, yeah, yeah, I've also had
romantic BS relationships whereI was so romantic to partner
with somebody and the BS was howwe came to know each other and
it was part of our relationship.
And then I've also hadrelationships that were just
strictly BS relationships.
You know, we weren't thatromantic partners or anything

(13:10):
and there was something to besaid about each of those
scenarios.
So my perfect scenario is Ithink it would be different more
by just the chemistry with theperson versus the scenario, and
but I think companionship isimportant.
I think I could have the reasonI was able to have those BS

(13:34):
relationships that didn't have acompanionship or romantic
continuity because they were notexclusive, and yet it had that
elsewhere.
I don't think I'd be able tojoin the BS relationship that
was one term that excludedcompanionship in that was also
exclusive.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
And so do you have, do you operate the protocols
during the day?

Speaker 4 (13:59):
So that can depend whether I'm interactive.
So, yes, so in the course oftime there are different
protocols I have, perhaps withmy gaming partner.
There's some protocols I'musing in general with each
person.
You know whether we're a downsub-pair or whether we just play

(14:21):
partners Protocols are.
I do generally take some typeof a differential tone towards
my play partners because BS ismy jam and you know.
Examples of protocols might bethat my down partner is welcome
to call me or text me at anyhour, but I myself do all these
text first to make sure ifthey're.

(14:42):
If I need to call out textfirst, sure you know you get
permission for a security intime to call and I'll try to
unless you know it was somethingextraordinary try to limit that
contact within flight hours.
And so you've got some exampleof a protocol I'd observe.
You know other things like ifyou're sitting down to eat out,

(15:03):
wait till they start first.
So those are just some generalthings I do and sometimes I have
.
You know there's that wordspecific to be partnered, so it
brings inside one side ofpartner who has a no shoe policy
inside her home and she wantedme to help her with her shoes.

(15:25):
We'll bring that to you in alittle bit more protocol.
We got that specific to theparticular situation.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
What's your favorite protocol, like what things
really scratch your itch?

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Also, what's your least favorite protocol too,
because that was what asked theopposite one.

Speaker 4 (15:43):
I don't know if I have a favorite protocol, and I
do often hear me say this,because often I sort of think
when I'll say, well, these aresome that there's this and
here's this and there's this.
So the two that I mentioned arethe ones that I commonly use,
but I guess they are meaningfulto me, that I commonly use and

(16:04):
everybody.
I suppose there are two reasonsI can use them.
One they are meaningful to me,and I suppose they also have.
They are okay to use acrosspeople and people.
It's not so much that I'mimposing something on that
versus just practicing some typeof gesture that shows depth, so

(16:24):
maybe that's also somethingthat helps them be my, so my
go-to protocols.
In terms of protocols that Idon't hear for so much, I don't
have one that immediately jumpsto mine.
I suppose I do have one thatcomes to my mind.

(16:46):
So once I had this temporaryprotocol where I would go see
somebody for a weekend at a time, and then, because once I got a
message or a phone call thatwas distracting, I received a
protocol which was that I wasn'tto use my phone during the

(17:11):
course of the weekend.
Oh yeah, and that was.
You know, if there was a lifeoutside of pink, I'd be okay
with that.
But there is life outside ofpink and when I talk about my
boundaries, that's one thing Italk about in general.
You know things that have anadverse effect and I remember

(17:33):
one of those scenarios.
I missed several calls from mybrother and afterwards, you know
, I was sort of a littledistressed by that.
I didn't know what was going on, whether there was emergency
situation, and that felt like,you know, I felt that protocol

(17:54):
wasn't necessary.
You know it could have aserious consequence in some
situations.
So is that a boundary?
Now it is.
So I did yes, I state that as ageneral boundary and I now
point to that as a specificexample.
So, yeah, this and thatprotocols.

(18:14):
You know I suppose I'd like toretain some of my freedom about
the rest of life, and thatincludes, you know, whatever
contents I have for work orother relationships and family.
So I think I need to find abalance between the two

(18:39):
protocols that don't allow thatbalance.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
So see, when we spoke on the phone you started
talking about all the differentkinds of submission.
Can you, can you give us arundown, because that was
fascinating to me and I did notrealize there were so many
categories.

Speaker 4 (18:57):
Sure.
So earlier in this conversationyou asked to identify as a
submissive or a masochist, andthere was a pause for this
reason.
So I'll start with masochism.
So I think that there are sixdifferent types of masochism,
three different types, with twosubcategories for each.
And so the different types ofmasochism are the first is

(19:17):
physical masochism, which iswhere somebody gets joy From
physical discomfort.
So different types of situationswe associate with physical pain
, whether it's impact orpinching, whether it's
temperature, whether it's sting.
You know whether it'ssomething's long to align, it's
hair pulling, having your hairput out with a tweedle, oh God,

(19:38):
whether it's chemicals.
So that's chemicals, chemicals.
But chemical I mean, like youknow, like, like, like, or, or,
or you know, or, yeah, serranoPeptides.
So, if you can, yeah, peopleprobably try.
Okay.
So I'll submit my chemical play.

(19:58):
But all of these, the commonthread across all these
different activities is sometype of physical sensation that
we usually call painful, that weusually say people want to
avoid.
But masochism transforms thatpain into something positive.
It can be that they are justwired, that pain directly leads
to a rousing, or it can be thatit creates just this headspace,

(20:22):
almost like a chemical flight,so like, for instance, people
will get flogged.
They're getting with something.
They might start to releasechemicals inside the body that
creates this buzz almost like arunner's heart.
So you know that can get agratification.
You know the gratification,just feeling some kind of a
connection.
If you talk about the differentreasons why people don't do

(20:42):
masochism, there's not just oneanswer, there's several, and for
each person one or more mightapply.
But for all these examples thecomment is that there is some
type of a physical sensationthat is resulting in pleasure.
That's physical masochism.
Emotional masochism is theemotional counterpart of that.
So just looking at physicalmasochism, we have something

(21:02):
that we consider a cause ofphysical pain.
In emotional masochism we havesomething we consider to cause
an unwanted emotion.
That unwanted emotion could befear, it could be hurt, it could
be boredom, all those things.
It could be frustration.
So the good example I knew onthe top who had a bottom would

(21:23):
like to make these elaboratejigsaw puzzles and the top would
at some time go and break upthe puzzle.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Oh, the crimes that have been committed.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
That could be an example.
That could be illegal.

Speaker 4 (21:39):
So you thought they were emotional.
Some of you know they did this,they talked about it, it was
okay in their dynamic.
Some of the pair that might be,like you know, a boundary, some
of the dynamic that might be toa fight.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
I'm so amused by the fact that the four of us have
talked about Serrano peppers onballs getting spanked very ever
for over 28 episodes, and we areall the most appalled at
puzzles being ruined.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
All okay.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
If you break my puzzle.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
I will break your hand.
I think that there should alsobe a category of submission
called your husband does puzzlesmuch faster than you and it
causes you anxiety.
Yes, or gets up before thedaybreak because he must finish
it and write down stairs, andit's almost done and you're like
what?
And you just you just submit,you just submit, you're like yes

(22:28):
, I didn't know puzzles weresuch a hot topic.
What the fuck is happening?
Puzzles are a very hot topic.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
My partner does puzzles so fast, I don't even
participate.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
I'm like look, I'm looking.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
I'm looking for edge pieces and she's done with a
thousand piece puzzle.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
I'm like, okay, I'll go to bed, that's.
That's a different kind ofedging.
Can you know what I mean?
You missed me.
I did, I did, I did yes.

Speaker 4 (22:57):
Tie back this bit of conversation one more time
before Serrano peppers and ballsChemical play.
Are you able to talk aboutvendors?
Make products.
Is it okay to talk about that?
Yeah, sure, okay, so I think,if I remember the name correctly
.
So I just went to a convention,convention called Dom Con LA,

(23:17):
and the vendor there I think thename was ironic and it must
they basically take fetishphotos, fetish art, make a big
self puzzle out of it.
Oh, cool, wow, if you likepuzzles.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Look for it in the show notes everybody.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
So we were talking about, yeah, emotional lessons.
So that's emotional.
Let's say you're a player,inversion, embarrassment, all
that quality Emotional lessons,and the reasons for why are the
same as physical lessons, atleast the mirror.
Then you know it's a responseto the body.
You know, maybe somebody likeshow their body respond to their
heart is beating fast and theycan feel that coming to their

(24:00):
face.
Or, you know, maybe it's beingperhaps a little bit connected,
perhaps that that state directlyleads to arousal.
And so all the reasons thatapply to physical masochism.
If you can understand that, ifyou can make that leap, you have
what you need to understandemotionally.
All we know is that there'ssomething that people do only

(24:24):
want to avoid physical pain,some people that brings joy.
All we know is that there'ssomething that people want to
avoid embarrassment, and theonly reason fear is that they
want emotions.
But under the context ofemotional SM, under the context
of emotional masochism, theybring somebody joy.
So that physical masochism, wegot emotional masochism.
And there's one other type,which I call status masochism.

(24:47):
So that's about somebody thatgets joy from a reduced or
lesser status.
Is that total power exchange?
I think total power exchangecomes from that.
Okay, so you have intensitieswith anything from a body
flodder to single fields forphysical SM.
You have intensities in statusmasochism.

(25:09):
So getting joy from addressingsomebody with an honorific is an
example of status masochism.
Okay, the news as a footstep isan example of status masochism.
There are some people who wantto be treated as less than human
.
That's an example of statusmasochism.
So we've got these threedifferent types physical
masochism, emotional masochism,status masochism.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
I think it's fascinating to me that the words
status and masochism are usedtogether, because I always in my
head thought masochism relatedentirely to physical pain.
But you're saying now, all ofthese are masochism and it's any
sort of like.
I don't use it as negative, butwhat people would normally
quantify as a negative orunwanted feeling in any of those

(25:52):
areas qualifies it as masochism.
Well, I'm not fully convinced.
You don't have a certain levelof masochism with how long you
put up with your broken rib andyour fissure case?
But I also think it's reallyinteresting to think about the
three different categories ofthemselves right, physical,

(26:13):
emotional and status.
Because, yeah, there is.
It's not necessarily thatstatus is cold.
But when I think of emotionalmanipulation or emotional
masochism right, it generallyrevolves around like tears or
anger or shame or whatever,versus status would be like our
living doll that we talked tothat just wanted to be treated

(26:36):
as a doll, right?

Speaker 3 (26:38):
Yeah, it was as a non-corporeal.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very.
I love categories because I'm astraight up Virgo, so thank you
See.
All right, I'm sorry Iinterrupted you.

Speaker 4 (26:50):
Oh no, no, so I'll actually learn a bit more Okay
About the difference betweenstatus masochism and emotional
masochism.
So in everyday life it might behard to differentiate between
the two, because the two arerelated.
When I say the two are related,what I mean is that if you use
somebody as a footstool ineveryday life, they might feel
both lowered as well as theymight feel emotional distress.

(27:12):
They might feel embarrassmentand humiliation.
But the point I want toemphasize is that those two
responses can be separate.
They keep masochism.
You can have somebody who'sused as a footstool and they
don't feel any emotionaldistress.
They might feel calm, theymight feel zen, they might feel
good, meditative, they mightfeel joy, no emotional distress
at all.

(27:32):
That's why I think it'snecessary to differentiate
between emotional masochism andstatus masochism.
Just as some people get joyfrom uncomfortable emotions,
something we consider to beunwanted in everyday life, some
people get joy from a reducedstatus, something we really
consider unwanted in everydaylife.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
See, I'm going to need this in a spreadsheet of
some kind so we can excel orlike do you follow that thread
on Reddit?
Data is beautiful, because I'mgoing to need to see this in a
beautiful data.
I think it gets so much deeper.
I think if one of us herefollowed, the data is beautiful.
That is a you saying SMC, and Ilove you for it.

(28:11):
I've never even heard of that.
I'll send it to you.
It's super sexy.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
Send it to.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
Luke, he would appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
I love that subreddit .
I'm not on it, but I've seenplenty of posts on it in the
developer realms.
It is glorious.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
I think the word is called chaos is clear.
That's great.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
I love that I now have verbiage for this, because
I've always tried to describelike, because I'm a switch, but
my masochism very rarely leanstowards like.
It's not so much that I have apositive physical response to
pain I have a high paintolerance and I am like it's

(28:54):
fine that it's happening.
But it's not like, yay, someonehurt me, I'm happy.
And then even like like I enjoybeing degraded and humiliated.
But when it happens to me, it'sI'm not having a distress
response to it becausespecifically when it occurs,
specifically when it occurs topeople I know care about me, so

(29:14):
I don't like.
It's not like if you're tellingme that I have a small dick and
I'm not worth it, like my systemdoesn't go.
Oh no, you mean it and I'm, butI the part that is, that I do
enjoy is the status masochism,and you said it perfectly.
Like when I'm being used as afootstool, I am calm, that is

(29:35):
the reaction that I have.
It's just like the lowering ofstatus makes it so that my brain
doesn't have to deal with theresponsibilities of being human
and for just those moment intime, like my brain doesn't have
to do anything but lay thereand I'm just like great, great,
perfect.
That is exactly what I'mlooking for at the time, and so
I've never had a term todifferentiate it because I'm the

(29:59):
other way, on the dominant side.
Like I like all three right, solike, if I'm delivering them, I
enjoy performing all three ofthose two people, or putting
people through either physical,emotional or status distress.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
So you bring up different parts that I readily
agree with and relate with.
So one yes, I also identifywith status masochism.
I also, in those situations I'mnot feeling any discomfort,
rather just calmness and joy.
This is right when I said youknow, like thinking of somebody,
the type of satisfaction youget just by expressing the love

(30:35):
towards them.
You know some, some type ofgesture and that's how it's
satisfying.
You know it's the combinationof feelings and that's how I
like it.
It just feels satisfied to feelthe right, it feels good.
So those are the three types ofmasochism and ceramorings.
So you go back to your pointabout spreadsheets.
I don't know the spreadsheet,but when I do this class in
person or even we'll resume,where I have a whiteboard

(30:58):
available to me, I do draw out agrid and that grid is what
makes these three types into six, so I'll visually describe it.
So if you imagine these threetypes being columns, now we're
going to add a row for each ofthose columns.
One of those rows is going tobe M centric or masochist
centric, and one of those rowsis going to be S centric or

(31:20):
satist centric.
So we have M centric, physicalmasochism, m centric, emotional
masochism, s centric physicalmasochism, s centric emotional
masochism, and so so if we do itfor all three, of course we got
six Sexy.
What do I mean by that?
What do I mean by M centricphysical masochism and M centric
or S centric physical masochism?

(31:40):
The best way for me to explainthe difference is if you imagine
somebody who likes to getflawed and the reason why they
like it is because they like thechemical flight it creates, it
makes it float, or perhaps thesensation itself directly
translates to arousal.
You know, several of thereasons we mentioned are called
masochism.
The reason for that joy, thatsatisfaction, that motivation

(32:02):
lies within the masochist.
That's what I'm calling Mcentric masochist.
Now, there's some masochistswho like to get flawed, but it's
not that the sensation isdirectly translating to pleasure
, it's that they're getting offof the idea that the sadist
wants to do this.
They're purving not on thesensation but on the sadist's

(32:22):
cruelty or sadism or desire toinvoke that.
And when I bring up this pointsome people ask.
So it's about taking pain toplease somebody.
And now, it's different thanthat.
You can imagine somebody whodoesn't have any interest in
kink and you can imagine thatthey know that their partner is
into flogging somebody and theycan say, hey, I know this really

(32:42):
does it for you.
I'm GGG, you know I'm not todance, I was there.
Go ahead and be and flog me,and that's somebody who's taking
pain, just as a service, andthat's centric masochist
actually gets off on the ideathey are getting the route that
what's happening?
They could watch somebody,statistic somebody else and

(33:03):
still get off of that becausethey are grung to that person's
sadism.
So you know, this is anothercontext of where you know it's
not that every person willnecessarily do that for them.
It's when they're being sometype of drug towards somebody
and then you know they havethese sadistic approaches that's
going to amplify their anger orsay the symptom, masochism is

(33:23):
going to kick in.
So that's what I mean bysadistic response, where the
response is not centered aroundwhat is happening inside the
masochist, but what's happeninginside the sadist.
It's sort of like a focus on ohgosh, this person is wanting to
do this.
Oh, that is so awesome.
So that's the sadistic centerof response.
Now, these are not too exclusive.

(33:44):
When I drop this grid, I jokearound about oh, I'm going to
get with somebody with apsychology background and we're
going to come up with some kindof a test like a Myers and
Griggs test, and you take thattest and get your masochism
profile.
So you can imagine these numbersfrom zero to 10 in each of
those six boxes and that's thatoverall defines the profile of
the masochist Interesting.

(34:04):
Come across somebody who likesto get flogged and all, but
doesn't really want to gethumiliated and doesn't want to,
like you know, address somebodydown or if it's a considerate
defeat or anything like that.
That's somebody who has astrong response to physical
masochism and a weak response tothe other two.
And you'll come across peoplewho'll say, hey, I don't want to
get tortured or humiliated, Ijust want to please and obey.

(34:26):
That's somebody who has astrong response for status
masochism and weak response forthe others.
And you get somebody like amodel.
So that's what I mean.
They're not mutually exclusive.
You can think of a number fromzero to 10 in each of those
boxes to find how meaningfulsomething is to get a masochist.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
Which is just like a sexy way to like find out how
much better you can communicateyour needs and find out if your
needs match your other playpartners needs is what it sounds
like.

Speaker 4 (34:54):
Exactly the goal behind all these models to know
this communication is one forsomebody to articulate their
language and that helps forsomebody to try to understand
somebody else's wiring.
That helps people.
One gauge if they're compatible, and then two if they are
compatible, it helps themunderstand what's so close, so
which like the console whichjust brings me back to the oh.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
So sorry.
See you were breaking up.

Speaker 4 (35:16):
Say again, okay so I'll quickly jump in and just
finish that thought.
I kind of liken it to theconcept of the love languages,
which is, you know the differentways somebody can express love,
but knowing what your partnerneeds helps you understand what
you need to make them feel love.
So, same type of understanding.
So please see, we're going toask a question.
Oh, was I?
I forgot already.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
But I just reminds me that, like we talk about this
and we've mentioned this acouple of times, but one of the
beautiful things about the thekink community, one of the many
beautiful things is how, on theforefront of direct, open
communication and consent, thekink community is right.
Like just being able to learnhow to clearly articulate your

(36:00):
needs and receive those needs issuch a like, such a beautiful
practice that I wish those thoseregular ding dongs out there
Got like like this communitygets.
You know those regular dingdongs, you know the regular ding
dongs, yeah the regular.
The ding dong and around withtheir tacos and their hot dogs,

(36:20):
toes and to juice.
Make this quickly.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yes, see, are you still with us, or didn't just
turn your video off?
Or being with I?

Speaker 4 (36:31):
Am, I am here, can you hear me great we can hear
you here, we can hear you in away, it's a, it's fine.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
It's fine.
It's a thing of Riverside tolike save bandwidth if that's
occurring, so no deal.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
This further makes me feel like I don't fit into the
BDSM community.
Like and not that I, not thatI'm like meeting that are like,
oh, poor me.
I just mean like even the ideaof masochism, like I don't there
wasn't anything that reallytruly registered for me in that,
only that as a spankle file.
I know I like pain, but I don'tget off to the idea of the

(37:09):
other person being dominant.
I just like the pain.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
But you definitely, you definitely space to I would
totally say and you're all threetypes of masochism.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, I was about to say you're wrong about you.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah, because if you were, if you were purely
physical, then it wouldn'tmatter that the like, it
wouldn't matter theconfiguration, because you like
the discipline part of it.
You like specifically being inlike Corporal punishment I'm
making the, I'm making the rules.
You did something wrong, yeah,and then this status, masochism

(37:52):
part of it, because if that, ifthat didn't matter, then like
somebody who Was like I don'tknow if you didn't hear about
the status man I'm, so he waslike is that, are we doing it?
You've done something wrong.

(38:12):
Here's your punishment.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
It's just more like if I have like, like there's
people even in the samecommunity that like tasks and
like Writing lines and sayingyes, sir, and like responding to
a text immediately, like for mepersonally, that's incredible
for other people.
For me personally, not in amillion years, not in a million
years, which is why I don'tthink I could be in a

(38:35):
relationship with somebody whowas in this world because, like,
I gotta shut that off for mepersonally.
But it is interesting becauseit's almost like it feels like
the BDSM world Is it is just outof my reach, but maybe not with
what you guys are saying.
I feel like you might have akink called Stephanie likes for
things to be just out of herreach.

(38:55):
Good, yeah, totally.
Yeah, I think, because I thinkspanko files are a category of
kink in BDSM and you keep tryingto be like I'm not into?
I'm not no it's just likethere's so much commitment I
hear, like when I, when I hear,see there's such a commitment to
this life and a commitment tolike the regimen behind

(39:17):
Submitting to somebody that Ireally do admire, that I don't
Possess, and so it does make mefeel like less than, or not less
than not, like, feel sorry forme, less than just like.
Am I like a Shitty version ofthe kink world, like, am I just
like a take-take-take and Idon't give what I'm supposed to
give?
Or is there just a differenttype of kink person out there

(39:39):
who just this is what I like,it's for this, it's between this
hour and this hour, and thenI'm out and I'm not in that
headspace anymore.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Yeah, that's the majority of people doing Like
because you're you're describingsomeone who's either so at
living it, living at 24 7, right, they Can't.
They all they are always undera protocol that they have to do,
whether they are in presence ornot, or total power exchange,
which means they, someone else,has complete control over your
life.
Or you're in a high protocolrelationship, which is like

(40:10):
there's a giant list of veryspecific, very detailed
Spreadsheet, it out contractedrules that you have to follow,
and that's extreme.
Most, most people don't getthere.
When I have two people that Iknow, that that have desires to
be in TPE relationships but liketo locate the person who can do
that well and for them and likethey can still live the life

(40:34):
that they want to live like theyhaven't found.
So you're, you're in the,you're in the middle of that.
I would say you're aboveaverage with back.
You have really high paintolerance.
You have very specific scenesthat you enjoy.
Your power play is really well,well-defined, that you, that
you want to have like yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
You're totally in.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
BDSM.
I want to be, I want to be.
I just feel like I I feel lessthan because there are, there
are things that on that listthat he that see, you were
saying that I Can't relate to,but obviously, done like that,
you're not gonna relate toeverything, it's just I've yet
to just Hear my thing, justunless you're toasting, and then
you're a very, very specialkind of individual, which that's

(41:15):
like trying to achieve Godstatus and I'm like I'll never
be there, only stop, only spanko.
Hmm, hey, hello friends.
So sorry, we had some technicaldifficulties.
So if you are wondering whythere's a sudden on sequitur and
an unfinished sense, it'sbecause everything broke, it all
broke.
Can we call them testicledifficulties from now on, though

(41:38):
?
Yeah, we were having testicledifficulties, everything.
Okay, see, so you, weinterrupted you while you were
still talking about categories.
I want to get back to that.
Yes, the.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
The last bit was where I was talking about the
science of BDSM.
Okay, group of academicresearchers out of an University
of Illinois, the science ofBDSM.
They're doing all kinds ofresearch.
One of the things that theydiscussed in one of their
studies was that they asked abunch of people hey, are you to
BDSM?
They said no.
Then they listed a bunch ofactivities, say do you like this
?
And bunch of them checked offactivities that Are considered

(42:13):
part of BDSM.
So there is this disconnect andyou know it's interesting thing
about what are the reasons.
But I'll add back what we'retalking about.
There is a BDSM community andthere is a spanking community.
They're two separatecommunities.
I think there's overlap in them.
I think they're similar to whatthey like, but the cultures and
also some of the preferencesare different between them and

(42:36):
Everybody gets to create BDSMthe way they want to and
participate in it to the extentthey want to.
So if somebody feels like youknow they can't do this round
the clock and everything, yeah,that doesn't make you know, a
lot of people in the BDSMcommunity don't do it around the
clock, so just want to makethat point so it doesn't hold
anybody back.
They think, hey, I have torenew this level to be part of

(42:59):
the BDSM.
No, you get to pick.
Thank you All right.
So the categories.
So we talked about thedifferent types of of masochism.
So that's one key concept.
First, just to clear that point.
You know, this is these areterms, these are models that I

(43:19):
like to geek out about Throughthat way, this is not your
reviewed material.
This is not you, but the onlypeople who've been to my classes
or I've done conversation orhad conversations with me Know
about these terms.
So if you are somewhere elseand you start to talk about hey,
so I mean, just that ismasochism.
I'm just asking me my dad, no,what you're talking about people

(43:41):
in me like excuse me.
So.
So that's one key concept thedifferent types of masochism.
Another key concept is that wetake status masochism.
We dive deeper into that.
That is masochism withouthaving you know Some type of a
difference in stats.
So that leads to a conceptcalled DS languages, which I

(44:01):
liken to love, love, lovelanguages, love languages.
The idea is that there aredifferent ways to express love
and all of them seem like thisshould be a way that should make
somebody feel loved, but inpractice, some of those are
meaningful than others.
So to describe that concept forthose who might not have heard
of it, the five love languages.
The author's name is GaryChapman.
It's a book.
He has a website.

(44:22):
You can Google it, you can takea little quiz.
I will tell you what lovelanguages are.
A five love languages.
He proposes our verbalaffirmation telling somebody I
love you.
Physical affirmation hugs,cuddling, access service,
spending quality time together.
It helps to know what your lovelanguages are and what your
partner's love languages are,because that's receiving

(44:43):
something that aligns with someof love languages, what makes
them feel loved.
Similarly, I believe in theconcept of DS languages and
Activity that aligns with yourconcept of DS makes you feel
dominant or submissive,whichever role you prefer, and
so I Break up the DS languageinto three broad categories.

(45:03):
One of them is about ObservingDS through hierarchy, through
showing hierarchy, throughdisplaying hierarchy.
So the best example would be ifyou imagine a queen with a
serpent, what might you deserve?
That might lead you to conclude, let's say you're watching a
film, or you're watching, youknow You're a third party
witnessing their interactionswhat might lead you to observe

(45:25):
who is in a more dominantposition there?
It would be the way they speakto each other that will show a
hierarchy.
It would be the way, perhaps,how they're seated that will
show a hierarchy.
So the different things thatshow a hierarchy.
That's one key way that peopleexpress DS and other DS
languages Force dominance orprimal dominance, so dominance

(45:46):
by way of root-verse.
So you know the type ofdominance you might see from a
bully I don't use that term, Iguess you to describe a style of
dominance.
It's where you know you werecausing pain.
Study is Dominus hey, I can dothis to you where you're perhaps
stepping on somebody's dignity,you're doing something that
might be humiliating to againshow hey, I'm doing this to you.

(46:08):
So you know the type ofdominance you might see in a
prison, you know hair pulling,pinning somebody on the ground,
all those you know that's.
That's that type of dominance,that's this, that, that category
, that DS language.
And then the third type is likeauthority, or fiduciary based
dominance, or managerialdominance, for the different
terms of sometimes used, the,the type of dominance you might

(46:29):
see in a workplace.
By that I mean you know, likewho makes decisions, who
controls the resources, who'sRunning the show, things like
that.
So these are three differentways that people Can express to
receive dominance.
And, just like love languageswere given person, some might
matter more than others.
So, for example, there arepeople who wants to play with

(46:49):
authority.
They want one person to make allthe rules and you know direct
the day-to-day life and so on.
You know they're not big onusing titles or anything like
that, or they might not be biginto you know the brute force
down, as I described.
So that's somebody for whom theauthority based dominance is a
key DS language and the othertwo not so much.

(47:09):
And you've got the other wayaround also.
So, for instance, micromanagingfalls under his one example of
authority based dominance.
You've got some people whorelate strongly with the
hierarchy based DS language andnot so much with the authority
based.
So that goes back with thediscussion we're having before.
The idea of this model in theseterms is for people to

(47:30):
understand and their partnerswiring, for somebody to be able
to articulate their wiring andit helps gauge Compatibility and
it helps you see what fulfillsyour partner, just like how
annoying your partners lovelanguage.
Language Enables you to knowwhat can make them feel loved.
Knowing your partners DSlanguage enables you to know
what can make them feel dominantor submissive.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
So it's one of the most valuable two minutes of my
entire life.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
I wasn't just too gosh.
I thought I went home for 10minutes.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
No it was potent.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah, yeah, that that is great for my brain to think
about because, like I know, it'sglad that I'm able to like have
ways of discussing that,because I've struggled with like
a couple of DS relationships inwhere I'm on the dominant side,
because I have a discrepancy,so like I feel most comfortable

(48:24):
in I think you were saying theauthority Dominant stance.
But it's hard for me to like sitmyself in an authority dominant
stance With someone who isn'tclear about what is fine for me
to rule and not rule over, likeif I have to, if I have to be
figuring that out, I have a hardtime, you know, communing with

(48:46):
the beast and so because I don'tlike to let the beast out of
the cage unless I'm able to likefirmly put his boundaries in
place and then I'm Like betterable to do it.
So it's very nice to have likethis categories because I think
I think now I have the languagethat's me like, oh, you work in
a hierarchy DS style is your,your landing place.

(49:09):
I'm more comfortable inauthority DS style.
Now we know how to talk aboutthe bridge to get through and
like at where to find the middleground.

Speaker 4 (49:18):
So this is thoroughly valuable Reference second key
concept different types ofmasochism.
If you dive deeper within,status masochism and language as
a DS.
So I'll pause here up.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Somebody had no, I'm sorry, it was.
It was me.
Ignore me.
Nothing else going to see wasimportant.
I'd rather hear you.

Speaker 4 (49:37):
Oh, we cannot ignore you?

Speaker 2 (49:38):
No, yeah I.

Speaker 3 (49:41):
Was just reiterating how valuable it was, yeah you
were too kind, thank you.

Speaker 4 (49:45):
So one other concept that I'll talk about is what I
call the I need centers ofsubmissives, and before I start
to talk about them, I'll make apoint that everything I've
talked about so far, while I'vebeen directing Then at s types s
types is a term I use todescribe people who fall on the
right side of the slash.
So sedis, masochist masochistsdominant, submissive submissives

(50:09):
top, bottom, bottoms, soS-types is an umbrella term
that's usually used to describepeople on the right slash.
So everything I've talked aboutseems to have been directed at
S-types, different types ofmasochism.
The DS language is now about totalk about the five
need-centric submissives, butreally everything I'm talking
about applies to tops also.
So I talked about sedis-centricphysical masochism.

(50:31):
In our tops they would havemasochist-centric physical
sedisms.
S-types is centric physicalsedism.
So everything I've talked abouthas a mirror image for tops.
All right.
So the next concept that I wantto talk about is the five need
centers of submissives.
So the first four are commonlyhumans.
So the first one I call theprimary needs center.

(50:54):
This is the one that'sconcerned with things like
maintaining your health, yourgeneral well-being, keeping a
job, keeping a roof over yourhead those primary needs.
Then the next one isesteem-related needs.
That's the part of you thatcreates need to want to be
respected, to not be looked downupon, to not be cut off as less
than everyday life.

(51:14):
When you feel, you know,because you got bad customer
service, that's youresteem-related need center.
That's saying, hey, I need tofeel respected, blah, blah.
Then the next one is the socialneed center.
That's a need center that wantsto give and receive affection
from social bonds, havecompanions, things like that.
And there's a spiritual needcenter that spans so many

(51:38):
different things.
One way of spiritual hard canhappen is by connecting with the
universe.
Outside of yourself it canhappen going deeper within
yourself, like, for example,through meditation.
It can be devoting yourself toa cause thought to be greater
than you.
And all those different thingscan be done through kick.
That cause could be yourpartner or the relationship

(51:59):
Devoting yourself to somebody.
You're connecting with somebody, you know.
I think that when you talk aboutthe joy that people feel in
kink, my personal opinion is alot of times it's happening
along spiritual lines, like twopeople just feel this connection
.
So those are four need centers.
Then the fifth one is what Icall the masochism need center

(52:21):
and that is a sum of everythingwe've talked about before.
So you take the masochismprofile and then the DS
languages that are part of themasochism profile, all that
lumped together into masochisticneed center or your kink needs.
Now all these need centers cometogether to create the
submissive.
So, as some analogies I'll use,I'll say each of these need

(52:42):
centers is being a strand.
So you've got these fivestrands of string bound together
to make a row and thesubmissive is a row.
So all these need centers arethere, they're part of the
submissive.
Another example of it is that ifyou imagine all of these being
Olympic judges and you put anactivity or a relationship or a
scene before these judges andthey are going to raise
scorecards to tell you how tofeel about this and the higher

(53:04):
the score, the better you feelabout it.
So, and any one of these, youcan give a score from one to 10
or you can give a score of minus50.
And the point is, you know, anyone of these judges can cancel
out something, they can vetosomething.
You know everybody else says Ilike this, I like this, I like
this 10, 10, 10, 10, 10.
One of them can say minus 50.
Sorry, nothing there.
So the idea.

(53:25):
You know.
Why is this model useful?
I think it helps see differentthings, one that submissive has
different needs that interactsimultaneously, to collectively
define their needs, theirhappiness, their distance and
all of these matters.
Sometimes it's easy to focus onjust the masochistic needs, but

(53:47):
the other needs are also there,you know.
A good example to give there isthat if you talk about the
desire to please, is thatessential to submission?
If you ask the question, you'llsee answers on both sides.
Some will say yes, it is.
Some will say no, it's not, butin the boat, kind of right.
I couldn't be right when we'resaying opposite things.
So let me give you a situationUnless.
Imagine somebody's beinginterrogated and most people

(54:09):
would associate that assomething some submissive might
enjoy or might fantasize about,or say S types might enjoy or
fantasize about.
You know, if you go around aroom and take a sermon, you have
several S people say, well, yes, that's hot, I'd want to do
that.
But you know, in that scenarioyou don't have to have the S
type wanting to please thatperson.

(54:29):
You know they're not going tosay, hey, you've been slapping
me around here, can I give you ahand massage, can I go get you
some water?
You know they're not going toget that round.
So here's an example of somebodybeing in a submissive situation
with a desire to please isn'tthere.
So I use that to make the pointthat desire to please isn't
essential to submission.
When you throw some masochisticcomponent alone, I think the

(54:50):
desire to please comes from thesocial component to express love
, and so a submissive is both ofthose components present
together.
So submissive does have adesire to please because their
social component, in partnershipwith the masochistic component,
goes beyond what other peoplemight do to please somebody.

(55:12):
So why does this matter if thatdesire to please comes from the
social component?
So what does a social componentneed?
It wants to give love, but italso likes to receive love.
So if you go talk tosubmissives and say, have you
ever felt like the top didn'tcare about you?
How did that affect yoursubmission?
And they'll probably say, well,it took something away or maybe
it killed it completely.
So this model is important tounderstand these different needs

(55:37):
that come collectively and theyall matter and one of them is
not getting met.
That's going to creatediscontent and it's not
necessary to meet all thoseneeds through the same program.
Those needs can be met throughdifferent people.
So, for example, there arepeople who have their romantic
needs met through one partnerand their masochistic needs met
through another partner.
There's still some amount ofsocial bonding, but the degree

(56:02):
or the intensity they don't haveto have all their social needs
met through one person, onepartner.
Those are some of the keypoints about this model.
It is to remember the differentneeds and that they affect the
joy that somebody feels.
When we were talking aboutfeeling calm or being a
footstool, I think that thespiritual component is also a

(56:24):
part of that.
So if we're going back to thescorecard, I bet you in that
activity, the masochisticcomponent and the spiritual
component are like raising uptents and maybe even a social
component.
So that's what I mean when wedo BDSM.
We interact at different levels.
We are simultaneouslyinteracting across SM cross
social like, it's intimate.

(56:44):
We're sending good will or lovetowards each other through
those activities, to whicheverdegree, and perhaps connecting
spiritually.
That I mean just a connectionthat focuses on each other, that
being present for each other.
So that's what creates the joyin BDSM these different things
happening together, thesedifferent types of connection
happening together.
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Yeah, especially I'm glad you brought up the
spiritual need center, becauseone of the reasons why I enjoy
degradation from both sides isthe thing for me is the
connection, like the biggestpart of it for me is like the
trust the two people have, whodo really care about each other,

(57:26):
willing to go to this likehumiliating, degrading place.
So you're getting all of thelike masochistic or sadist
things out that you want bygetting like a perform being
terrible to a person or a personbeing terrible to you, and then
you, in order to do that safelyand feel comfortable doing with

(57:47):
the person and like walk inthat realm of like what it would
feel like to do.
That takes a deep level oftrust and, like you know, and
also like a deep level ofintimacy between like it's all
the times that I've donedegradation scenes they have
been like so highly present,like most most of the time it's
like it's very easy to like lockinto each other and like let

(58:09):
the world fade away to do this.
Well, so, and I think like it'sall, and I'm I resonate with
that because of how much itinteracts with the, you know,
spiritual component that youwere talking about- Also, I
think there's a lot of people inthe king world that would be
excellent actors, because I feellike that's so much.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
Part of acting is like finding a partner that
you're going to commit to thisstory that you're going to tell,
and the world outside of youfades away.
So you don't have this.
You know this worry of productand presentation and whatnot,
and there's a genuineness thatkind of falls into it of just
you know, I wouldn't want anyonereally looking at this, but

(58:47):
this, you know this feels realin this moment and so I really
appreciate that too.

Speaker 4 (58:54):
Well, thank you for telling me about.
You know how that resonatedwith you.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
When do you like?
How often do you teach thisclass, and to whom do you
generally teach it?
Is this something you offeroccasionally or just to kink
groups, or do you have a doteach workshops yourself, just
randomly and advertise them?

Speaker 4 (59:13):
It varies usually I have always so far done
workshops with somebody, eitheran organization or a convention,
something like that.
So it varies.
So I have separate classes,different classes.
So the very first class I didwas, you know, understanding
service submissives.
And then next the class was,you know, it was called

(59:36):
de-misdepriving emulation, ohcool.
And then the next one was theDS languages class, and then the
.
Then, you know, eventually theneed centers class came and from
that that spun into the typesof masochism and so on.
So it's actually four differentclasses.
And then there's one whichbinds all these concepts,

(59:58):
doesn't go into full depth, justgives it overview all of them,
to create this, you know,comprehensive picture.
I call that your PhD inunderstanding submissives.
And so how often do I do that?
Just it varies with half anattend convention.
There are some of the protestme about it and I'm available in
this and that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
So Do you ever teach them in Austin or DC?
Just like offer them and seewho shows up?

Speaker 4 (01:00:23):
I haven't done them, like on my own, like you know
where they are, they are in bothplaces.
There are groups that arefocused in education.
They are regularly schedulingclasses so I've usually done
them with that because they hada physical space or a platform
and I've just gone with that.
I've occasionally reached outto, I do you know, I appreciate

(01:00:46):
in education and I alsosometimes like to champion kink.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Do you notice a difference in?
So it's Washington DC in.
Here you spend time between?
Yes, I mean, is DC kink here?
I just feel like with all thosepoliticians it's got to be.

Speaker 4 (01:01:03):
You know what it is.
Kink here in the sense that Ithink it's got to more it's seen
, is bigger and has it's aheadof the curve, and I say that not
just with respect to Austin,but I think it's you know, it's
got the best scene in the kinkscene in the country.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Wow, it's tough to say no DC, no DC.
Oh, that makes me, that makesno sense.

Speaker 4 (01:01:32):
So Austin also, if you have for a city its size, it
also has a terrific scene.
You know, right now it's goingthrough a state where we don't
have a play space so there's nota lot to do on the weekends.
But there was a time whenAustin thing happening every
night of the month, either asocial or a party, and it still
has a good much of stuffhappening.

(01:01:52):
And you know it's also, overthe years, diversified and you
have individuals you can creditfor that.
You know there's a group forpeople who are into age play,
there's a group for people whoare into pet play.
What makes DC, I think, what itis, is so you know it's just
it's fun to think about how thepoliticians affected I'm not
sure how much effect they have,they probably will not show up

(01:02:14):
to invent, but I think some ofthe things that do affect it, I
think one is just two very largemetropolitan areas close to
each other, dc and Baltimore.
They're about 25 miles awayfrom their closest points and
you know when I say DC I mean,like the DMV area, just these in
adjacent parts of Maryland andVirginia.
You know whatever's in the beltwedge, and so there's.

(01:02:35):
You know the other citiesnearby also, like Frederick, I
would not go to DC.
There was one dungeon, studio58, that was in Frederick and
that was a popular destination.
People from DC, people fromBaltimore go there also.
So you've got this symbioticrelationship between these
nearby cities.
And then I think another thingthat has helped is that it has
been around for a while, so it'shad time to mature.

(01:02:57):
Have you heard of Jack McGeorgeSay it again, he was Jack
McGeorge.
No, jack McGeorge, yeah.
He, you know, was the leader ofthe DC community.
He was Black Rose.
He was, you know, the powerbehind the force behind that.
He used to teach around thecountry.
He was part of the team that wasrun by Hans Blix back when

(01:03:19):
George Bush was president andsomehow the press found out that
he was kinky.
It looks pretty open.
He's going to conventions,things like that.
The press found out and theytried to make an issue about it.
Of course, jack McGeorge, yeah,so, jack McGeorge, you know
this was at that time.
Their team was total highprofile.
Jack McGeorge didn't want thisto, you know, affect, so he
wouldn't give Hans Blix hisresignation.

(01:03:40):
And Hans Blix looked at it andsaid well, you did good work,
that's all I care about.
So that was an old victory forkinky people.
You know people with that typeof competence having been around
in DC and those people who wentto DC because of their
professional competence.
Some of them took that anddirected that to organizing the
kinky community.
So it started a while ago.
It's had time to grow and splitup into two pieces and grow

(01:04:01):
more and you know there are lotsof things that I saw for the
first time in DC.
It's a pretty progressive city.
So, for instance, the firsttime I went to an event that had
gender neutral bathrooms in DC,DC and the events.
You know you have to have ahotel takeover or you have to
have the entire facility to beable to do that, but you know
that was in DC.
You know other things likechucks.

(01:04:21):
They were more commonly used inDC than other places when I
first started to go there about12 years ago.
Chucks, like the chucks.
But chucks, I mean theabsorbent pads, like you know,
puppy pads.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
Oh yeah, Like all-star.

Speaker 4 (01:04:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh.
I'm a big fan of all-star.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
Converses Totally, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
I'm sorry, you'll have to describe what a chuck is
again.
For me it's a puppy pad, okay,which is like a pad that puppies
you put down for puppies to peeon, because they're not potty
trained but they use them atlike king parties under, you
know, sloppy situations.
Of course, of course, sure,sure, sure, yep, I'm on the same
page now.

Speaker 4 (01:05:04):
Yeah, I'm proud of that so they're used for any
situation.
The idea is, you know if you'regoing to do any kind of play
that can get bodily fluids onequipment that's to be shared
with others, you know, you prove, you know that that's the
protective measure you take.
You put the chucks down and youknow it could be any type of
play that could be played thatperhaps involves genitalia or it

(01:05:27):
could even be, you know,sometimes with the mound, just
for even forgiving a massage,just so we're not getting a
massage all the while on thetable for others, or somebody's
sweat and body that's directlygoing on the table where other
people are going to lie.
So you know that's that's oneway to do it.
So that you know the queercommunity, you know the country
as the whole.
Queer community has become abigger.

(01:05:48):
The presence of that and theKing community has grown or
switches.
All these things that havehappened over time.
You know it just seemed morepresent to me in DC than I was
seeing in other places.
So those are some of the thingsthat you know impressed me
about it and what lead me to saythat it's one of the best
things.
That and then the events thatit has.

(01:06:10):
I think that's what really setsit apart.
You know, at one time it hadnine conventions per year in DC,
and I'm talking about the majorones hotel takeovers, festivals
, and so there's no other placein the country that had that
many.
I think that's what really setit apart.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
That's crazy, but it's just.
It's so funny to me.
In DC, I mean, it totallyclocks, but it's just so funny
to me.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
Yeah, that's encouraging to hear because you
know I have aspirations in mylifetime to like consider public
office and one of my worrieshas always been like it's a
pretty easy Google to find.
You know a nice white ladybegging me and you know me
personally, I don't care, Likethat doesn't impact my ability.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
I think it makes my ability to govern better and I
feel confident.
I vote for you.
Thank you, and I can't scoreyou, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
My platform is going to be more about stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
What's up?

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
Loob, but it's encouraging to hear that, like
DC you know, the surroundingarea is very king friendly.
I don't know how far thatextends into the capital, but
they got their own little groupyeah.
I mean, I think, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Graham runs it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
Perhaps not in the state capital, but, yes, the
population around it very muchso.
But I've also got anotherencouraging story for you, which
is story of another Jack calledJack Rinella.
He has written several books onabout kink.
He used to have a weekly columnabout BDSM.
That ran over a decade since,like the mid 90s I think, when
it started and he ran for officein Illinois state office.

(01:07:53):
He ran for the IllinoisCongress and he ran as an
outgain letter man.
Oh, all right, how did it gofor him If he didn't make it an
issue?
He did not win.
He lost to the incumbent.
So he didn't make it in theDemocratic primary.
But if he had one, thendistrict was heavily Democratic

(01:08:15):
and he probably would have madeit to office.
But he lost to the incumbentwho was already in office.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
Man, that would have been great.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
That is encouraging.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Yeah, I'm going to have us wrap up this episode.
See, was there any things youwanted to add on to the end that
maybe you didn't get a chanceto say?

Speaker 4 (01:08:37):
I think we've had a terrific conversation with all
kinds of interesting ideas, andI love what everybody else had
to say.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
Is there a place people can go to find more about
you and like when you teachyour classes, or where you teach
your classes or how they getaccess to your information,
because it's so awesome.
Yeah, I want to take a class,even though I just want to take
it for the charts.

Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
So I could probably do a better job of that
information current.
So you know, the only placethat really holds this regularly
is on Fat Life.
Okay, I have sort of fallen offTwitter and on that, you know,
I had a page where I would postmy upcoming classes.
I haven't been terrific aboutposting it other than just.
You know, rs, we can do eventsand stuff, and so through my

(01:09:21):
activity feed is how it usuallycomes out Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
So everybody, if you're lucky, you will catch one
of C's classes.
Yeah, can we know the Fat Lifename it's?

Speaker 4 (01:09:35):
underground.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
I'll post it in the show notes, yeah, so everybody
can follow and see when heteaches.
Yeah, amazing, don't forget.
You can support us on Patreon,become one of our patrons and
help us continue to improve thequality of the podcast and help
us support our other artisticendeavors.
We do podcasts and films andother fun, sexy stuff.

(01:09:58):
All of that information will bein the show notes.
Thank you so much for listening.
Come back again some other time.
Yeah, because this is a sexyplace to be.
Until next time, let's allfigure out where on the chart we
are the submissive chart.
I'm asking you to say it.

Speaker 4 (01:10:18):
It needs a name.
This chart needs a name.
It does have some names.
It does have these names.
You know, maybe I can save thatfor another time.
If you'd like me to talk aboutthem, I'm happy to now, but I
wanted to jump in on the tanks.
I was trying to get in on it.
Wrap this up.
I want to direct that thanks toall of you.
Oh, okay, because I think thatit's great that you're hosting

(01:10:40):
something like this and itmatters because you know just
like how I first.
There was a moment when I cameto learn about oh, there are
other people like me.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
Yeah, we really appreciate that Same.

Speaker 4 (01:10:54):
These little things that help you realize that there
are others are oh hey, I relatewith that, and sometimes that
can be, you know, just this,just one of your episodes about
something that somebody reallyrelates with could be the moment
that enables them.
Okay, hey, I'm going to explorethis side of me some more.
Oh, there are other people likeme.
Let me see you, I can connectwith them.
So so I appreciate that you areyour championing, you know,

(01:11:17):
different facets of sexualityand creating space for people to
learn about them.
Also, have a positive way thatmight enable them to explore
that and embrace that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
We're so happy to be able to do that.
Thank you for your appreciation.
Yeah, it's awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:11:31):
Yeah, thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
Yeah.
So on that lovely note,everybody have a great, have a
sexy time whenever you'relistening to him this day or
night, or whatever.
Oh, that's true.
Yeah, yeah, go make aspreadsheet, go make a
spreadsheet.
Well, all kinds of what Soundslike you for me.
Bye, bye, bye, bye, guys, Bye,bye.

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
Talk Dirty to Me is a podcast by Little Renegade
Films.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
It stars Sarah Marie Currie Casey Sammie Casey why
don't you sound real sexy whileyou do it?
Do I no, why don't?

Speaker 3 (01:12:06):
you.
Oh, why don't I yeah Like you?

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
remember how you read your synopsis.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
Yeah, oh, you want me to do it like that.
Yes, okay, great Genius, okay.
Talk Dirty to Me is a podcastby Little Renegade Films.
It stars Sarah Marie Currie,casey, sammie, tosen Alifaso and
Stephanie Spiegelman, withsilent contributions by Taylor

(01:12:31):
Novak.
Title and closing themes byTosen Alifaso.
Follow us on the social mediasat Talk Dirty to Me pod, and for
more of our offerings go tolittlerenegadefilmscom.