November 5, 2023 • 46 mins
- Guest today is Jake Wing
- Shibari/Rope specialist
- Has been into rope ever since reading an old Wonder Woman comic when he was 13
- Started a website back in 2000 that was only around a couple of years.
- Has been teaching over the last 10 years
- Austin Rope Slingers
- Also teaches nationally and privately
- Wonder Woman comic discussion
- GWNN - group in Austin that has a bash every year
- Tosin recalls seeing someone get tied up for the first time at a party
- Western Rope vs Eastern Rope
- Jake gives his opening safety talk for his rope 101 class
- 12m:30s - TRIGGER WARNING for “suicide” mention
- How to talk through a tie-up session
- Specificity is vital
- #chainsawplay
- Different types of ropes for different uses:
- Hand made jute
- Cotton - don’t suspend with this
- Hemp
- Nylon
- One of the best riggers in Austin is Kim Lee
- Weird left turn after the Harry Houdini question where Jake mentions that he’s been telling stories that involve him tying up women (mostly) and he wanted to clarify that rope is for everyone.
- Jake’s Socials:
- FetLife = jake_wing
- Instagram = jake_wing_iv
- Facebook = Jake Wing
- TDTM OnlyFans announcement!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, well, well, go ahead and open up your ears,
your mind and whatever else youneed.
You listen to talk dirty to me.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello all you sexy bees and welcome back to Talk
Dirty to Me, the podcast wherethree friends with three
different perspectives on kink,fetish and sex talk dirty to one
another.
And with us today we have TosinAloufaso, the kink oracle.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Stephanie Slayton, the queen of spankos.
Oh hi, there Me, daisy, yourneighbor Femme Dom, and I
apologize, I'm the problem.
Today there's weird audio.
It's because I'm on a work tripand I couldn't bring my fancy
microphone, but it doesn'tmatter, because we have a
fucking fantastic guest for youtoday that I'm super pumped
about.
Tosin, you want to take it away?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yes, absolutely so.
I am happy and honored andproud to introduce Jake Wing.
He is one of the founders andinstructors of Austin Rope
Slingers.
If you've heard my story withJourney and Learning Rope,
that's one of the first places Iwent to to ever to go tie
somebody up or like get likeprofessional rope training at.
They've been going on for quitesome time and I'll let Jake
(01:18):
give you the details on it, buthe's been doing for a while.
We've been wanting to do anepisode talking about Shabari
and rope and rope bondage.
Personally, you're one of thebest people I can think of to
talk about it with.
You know it was a couple of therope people in the community
were hoping to get on too, butI'm glad we got you here as well
.
So yeah, jake, they hide.
Tell us how you got in the ropeand anything else that I missed
about you in that intro.
Cool.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Hello folks.
As far as how I got into rope,that's an old story.
I mean back puberty.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I want to hear it.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yes, please.
Okay, me too I read a lot ofcomic books and there was a
Wonder Woman comic book whereshe got tied to the railroad
tracks with her own golden lassoand I was about 13 when I read
that and it created funnyfeelings in my pocket region.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Pocket region.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
But so it was definitely something that
interested me, and when Istarted being an adult and
sexually active that's the mainthing that I do in the bedroom
is people up and throughout the20th century anyway, I didn't do
it very well.
Nobody, nobody was teaching itback then, and so I was trying
to reverse engineer it from badporn.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Reverse engineering from bad porn is unfortunately a
lot of us guys.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And so then in the 21st century, I found the
partner that was very interestedin it as well and we started a
website in 2000, which ran forabout two and a half years.
Never made much money I meanmore than beer money but it was
fun to do and I've been tyingkind of publicly and in the
scene ever since then, Probablyin the last 10 years or so, I've
(02:51):
been teaching various placesAustin, Roots and yours, as
mentioned, but also I teach somestuff nationally and privately.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I have a couple things to say.
This is not the first time Ihave heard of somebody saying
the old Wonder Woman comicsgetting them into rope.
Like apparently it's a thingwhich is fascinating.
I want to go back and read themnow.
There's like some low levelsecret kink in that comic series
.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
It's not even all that secret.
Also lots of stuff, oh really.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I'm going to read it now.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Wonder Woman does get spanked in an inordinate amount
.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Yes, there's a film about the creator of the Wonder
Woman comics, and both he andhis partner were into BDSM and
rope tying and spanking, and soI think that it just kind of
crept in there, and they werePolly also.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And they were what they were.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Polly Amorous.
Yes, yes, and they were Polly.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
When did you so?
You saw that in a comic book at13.
What was the moment yourealized that tying people up
was a thing, though, like it wasa kink, like when was the first
time you saw it for real and Iwas like, oh shit, that's
something I can actually do.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
You mean something other than like in dramas, or
you know?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Well, I'm imagining when you were 13, you probably
saw it didn't go.
Oh, I understand that.
That's a whole kink unto itselfthat I can actually enact on
other people Like you, probablyjust like that's hot and I don't
know why.
Right, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I'm going to show my age here.
I'm 61 years old, so this waslike the 70s, you know, and
there was no internet.
There was no.
I grew up in Oklahoma.
I thought I was alone, Ithought I was sick, you know,
and so it took me a long time tofind out that there were other
people like me yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Do you remember the moment where you saw Shabari or
Rottach for the first time?
Or like, oh my God, I am partof a community.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, I was born again, but kind of an inclusive
born.
It was a company called HarmonyPublications and they put out a
bunch of bondage magazines andone of them was called Bondage
Life and it was not just, youknow, professional photographers
and professional models.
They took letters and stufffrom other people all over the
country and submissions and theywould I mean, there was amateur
(05:04):
work in there in that magazineand that's what kind of clued me
in that I.
There were other people wholiked.
So then, you know, I had acouple of.
Well, I had a partner, finallythat she was a little older than
I was, but I was like this wasmy early twenties.
I'm like let's try this thing.
She agreed and West was history.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
That's so cool.
How did you become good at it,like if it was?
You know, back in the day therewas nobody teaching, did you?
Was it just searching for?
I don't know, like.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
A lot of it, trial and error, and I got to tell you
that really I didn't becomegood until I mean I was doing it
10 or 15 years, based on youknow what I was seeing and born
and what I learned by you know,figuring it out.
But I really didn't until I sawsome people doing it, doing it
well, and got some instructions.
Back in 2002, there's a grouphere in Austin called Gwynn
(05:53):
group, with no name, and theyhave everything something called
the Gwynn Bash of a year, andthey brought in a Shibari person
, famous at that time, stillfamous, a lady named Midori, and
I took a class from her, andthat's when I I started to
understand the importance oftension.
I got some understanding theway that the Eastern stuff
worked, because I had been doingpretty much damsel and distress
(06:15):
type work throughout the 20thcentury.
I will say that I found when Iwas 17,.
I found a magazine in the backof a used bookstore in Beaumont,
texas, and it was a Japanesemagazine.
It was and it was all prettyAsian women tied up with Cicil
rope and like a single tearrolling down the cheek, and it
was hot and different.
(06:36):
And so I knew what Japaneserope was.
I just didn't know how to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah, and you bring up something that was like I
didn't even consider until I hadheard you talk about it, which
was my introduction to rope wasgoing to a play party at the
Bakanaw and seeing Tom it'sanother person in the community
who's tied a lot of people up,tied someone up and I just was
transfixed and like mostly atjust like watching someone I had
been seen running around theparty like very graceful, very
(07:02):
flexible, very bubbly and likefunctional, slowly lose all of
their ability to like doanything, like the time it took
to like get her tied up and putup in suspension.
And you know, this person thatI've seen like that had like so
much energy and was like runningaround and stuff just being
like completely like blissed outand relaxed and spinning around
like complete loss of controlover all of her limbs.
I was just like well that I'min that, that I want that, I
(07:26):
want to make people make thatface and it looked beautiful and
it was like I was like I likedmaking art out of people and he
was doing shabari and I didn'teven realize there was a
difference until you had broughtup like a western rope and
eastern rope are different fromeach other.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I mean there's definitely some similarities and
duplication.
I think maybe you know peopleyou're tying human bodies and so
some, some ways of doing thatis going to be similar to the
matter where you come up with it.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I did not know.
There were two different styles.
There's an eastern and awestern.
Can we talk about thedifferences between the two?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Oh, there's probably a lot more than two different
styles, oh no, but those are thetwo main styles.
And and first I need toprobably clarify the terms a
little bit Some people talkabout western rope as if and
what they're talking about iswestern cultures interpretation
of eastern rope.
So within the umbrella ofshabari, you've got easterners
(08:19):
and westerners doing shabari,and so that's not really what
I'm talking about.
When I talk about western rope,I'm talking about more like the
.
It came out of Hollywood andwas on the detective magazines,
the damsel and distress typestuff, and there's also a large
I mean there's still thatdichotomy the west, a lot of the
western riggers are more,there's more money involved in
(08:40):
western rigging.
Modern.
We'll see a lot more websitesdevoted to western rope.
Where people are, they'regagged and bound and there's a
little bit of drama to it, likekidnapping or such as that.
But some of just like thephysical things you'll see is
you're less likely to see asuspension with western rope.
I won't say that you I meanthese are trends, not rules
(09:01):
You're more likely to see a gagin western rope, limbs are more
likely to be together like this,whereas eastern are more likely
to be like this.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, and by by like this, you know, like arms
parallel to your chin, holdingover each other instead of like
out in front of you, or liketied together, or behind you,
yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
And western ropes more likely to use like manmade
rope, nylon or such as that, orthey'll go with cotton.
Eastern rope is more likely tobe jute or hemp.
So there's a lot of differences, but there's a lot of
similarities too, and mypersonal style, I try to blend
them.
I like to do both sometimes inthe same tie.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
So Shibari started as like a form of torture in Japan
.
Yeah, that's like the origin ofShibari.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
More like not so much torture I mean, aspects of it
were torture but it's likeprisoner.
You know ways to restrainprisoners.
One of the things that I knowabout Japanese culture is that
they didn't have much iron onthat little island, and so, you
know, in Europe and Westernworld, blacksmiths were pounding
out chains and the Japanesewere saving the steel for
beautiful, wonderful swords, andso they would use, you know,
(10:05):
natural materials for bindingand building.
That's why you see a lot morelike bamboo and things like that
in Japanese culture than youwould, and really I'm talking
about not modern times butmedieval times.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
That's interesting.
So it came out out of necessity, because that was just the tool
they had to use.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not an expert on that, but yeah, I
think that's that's.
That has something to do withit.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Yeah, I might like nerding out, I'm not an expert
either, but you can't convinceme that it still didn't start
with kinks somewhere in there.
Oh, just like to put all ofthat effort into how beautiful
the rope is, because I googledsome of the images from the
1400s and what they were usingon prisoners and it just seems
like an awful lot of work forrestraining a prisoner.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah.
Yeah, there was like a combatversion of it too.
That would you see.
Yeah, and it's like that youlearned literally, instead of
the sword, you'd be able to like, while in a fight with someone,
be able to like restrain them.
So there's all these like quickthings you can do for like
getting a wrist lock, tying themup, like some of the one rope
stuff that has come out nowstarted with like this combat
(11:12):
style rope things, and it's likethat was.
That was a nerdy hole that wentdown for a little while.
I mean, like you know, japanesesoldiers really out there just
tying people up on thebattlefield committed.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah Well, and I think, you know, I think that if
we just go back to the MiddleAges we're not going back far
enough.
I really think rope is probably, you know, mankind's third tool
.
You know we had the sharp rock,we had the club, and at some
point we made an axe, and we didthat by tying those two things
together, right?
So anytime anybody you knowtalks about inventing rope
bondage, I think probably youknow some caveman did that to
(11:45):
the wife around the campfire.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
So Letting in bully guys, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Actually and you're saying that one of the things I
was going to ask is because Ifound it to be really impactful
is so when you go to, when yougo to a ARS class, there's
usually like some intermediateor advanced technique being
taught in one place, and thenthere's one-on-one class and the
first one-on-one class I took,jake taught and hit your opening
safety talk.
I found to be really good.
(12:11):
So I was going to ask, becauseI think it's good to just here
in general, so if I would loveit if you would give that like
opening safety speech that yougive like about rope and safety
and stuff.
It's like 10 minutes, you sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we like andwe'll pause the next question we
want to, but I think it's areally valuable 10 minutes bill,
so Okay.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
So when I teach beginner rope and also rope
singers, we try to do that.
We have a class every Mondaynight and for some reason,
there's a ton of beginners thatshow up every Monday night, and
so we we teach beginner rope toeveryone, and part of that is to
try to talk about the safety,and so the first thing I talk
about is that rope is a murderweapon.
(12:49):
The rope is an execution method.
Rope is a way to commit suicide.
It's dangerous and you've gotto respect it.
That being said, you know, ourcar is pretty dangerous too.
Fire is pretty dangerous.
These are all things that wedeal with every day, and so I
always tell people that the mostimportant safety rule when
(13:09):
dealing with rope and maybe it'sa lot of things is don't be
stupid, right?
And so when I, the stupid, cancreep up, I want to tell you a
story, and I don't know if thisis I'm pretty sure this is true,
because I've seen it inmultiple places, but they were
all on the internet, so take itwith a grain of salt, but it
sounds very plausible.
A gentleman and two ladiesbecame all became enamored at
(13:31):
each other at a place thishappened in Europe, I believe,
and they had been drinking, andso they decided that it would
all.
It would be a great thing forthem all to go to a private
location and have some kinky,sexy fun.
And so the gentleman tied upthe two ladies both of them and
then took rope and put it aroundone of theirs neck and took it
up over a pipe and then tied itaround the other ladies and then
(13:54):
, because he'd been drinking, hepassed out, and so when he woke
up, one of those ladies wasdead and the other one was in a
coma.
And so I think that the thingthat we can, we can agree on is
that all of those people werestupid.
Is it true story?
You know, I I've been tellingit for a long time and I I know
that I found it on the internetat one point to just because I
wanted to ask that questionmyself, and I did see it.
(14:17):
But don't ask me for the linknow, because I've been telling
that story for quite a while.
But yeah, it's, it's, it's thekind of thing that can happen,
and I think it probably, almostcertainly, has happened.
And I think the thing there isthat and I tell people I don't
want to, you know, we're alladults?
If we're, if you're watchingthis podcast, I hope we're
adults, and so I'm not going tosay never do this, never drink
(14:39):
and do rope, okay, but I wouldsay don't do it while you're
drinking and certainly don't dodangerous things.
I mean, when you're drunk, thestupid sneaks up on you.
If you think there's something,you know, if you're going to do
something and there's about a 1%chance that something bad might
happen, well, if the bad thingthat happens is that you are on
(14:59):
your knees and you fall on yourface and maybe you break your
nose, and if thing is, thingsare terrible, then that's
probably a risk worth taking.
If that, if you find it to befun or enjoyable.
You know, skateboarders takebigger risks than that.
Those same odds, though.
If the risk is, you know, ifit's a 1% risk of failure, but
the result of failure is deathor serious injury, then that's
(15:24):
not cool, that's not enough,that's not enough certainty, and
you can't make this stuff safe.
But you can make it safer.
You can be smart about it, youcan not be stupid.
And so my cat wants to join.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
They should Toes, and we can't hear you.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Okay, all right, still hear me.
Oh sorry, that was me.
Yeah, no, we're cat friendlyhere.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
We get cats walking all over, stuff everywhere.
Trust me.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
If, sam, we would take a four minute diversion to
talk about kitties, okay.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
So you know, sort of death.
There are some safetyconsiderations.
Again, as long as you're asyou're not stupid, as long as
you're smart about it, probablynot going to encounter the
situation that's that dangerous.
But you know, when people talkabout rope they always talk
about what the oh my God, you'regoing to cut off your
circulation, right?
So really, you heard that atsome point.
And rope, you're going to cutoff your circulation.
(16:14):
Well that's not as much of arisk Because everybody thinks I
mean, we've all gone to sleep onour arm and woken up with it
all weird and it's tingly and itbarely moves, and then five
minutes later it's fine, right,and that may have been, we may
have been sleeping on that forhours, okay, and it's not much
of a problem.
I'm not saying that that's notdangerous, but it's not as
(16:35):
dangerous as everybody thinks itis.
What is kind of a risk is thatrope can impinge your nerves.
So if you put a, you know, acollapsing slip knot on
somebody's wrist and then theystart pulling on it, you can.
There's all kinds of nerves thatare up in your wrist.
You can cause problems formobility, for sensitivity.
(16:56):
There are like three mainnerves that comes through your
arm that can cause problems, andthis is not just.
I mean suspension is whereyou're more likely to encounter
this, because you've got moreweight on that rope.
But you can cause nerve issueswhen you're on the ground,
because anytime you press hardon those nerves you can cause
problems and nerve damage canlast for seconds, minutes, days,
(17:21):
weeks, months or never heal andit's just so.
The other thing I want to sayabout the possibility of nerve
damage is that if you are in therope and it feels weird, it's
probably a nerve impingement.
Okay, I've had people saythings like my hands are big,
what?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
No, they're the same size.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Oh, this is a nerve problem, so I take the rope off
quickly, or sometimes it's justa matter of moving it, getting
it off that nerve.
But if they say somethingthat's unusual, if it feels
unusual, then it's probably anerve issue.
There's a.
The radial nerve comes throughyour upper arm right here, and a
lot of people do tight rope onthat upper arm and you can cause
something called wrist drop inyour hand.
(18:04):
You can do this, but you can'tdo this.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, and it's like holding your hold, your hand
being limp, but you can'tstraighten it back up.
You can't.
You can't keep your hand in ahigh five position and just kind
of like fall through that.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Right, and I actually did that to myself once.
I slept on it wrong and I wokeup and I'm like I know what this
is.
I know exactly what this is andI will tell you that it it's.
I regain full movement in abouttwo minutes.
The whole back of my hand wasnumb.
That came back in about 10minutes and then for the rest of
the day it was weird.
(18:36):
Like I said, nerve stuff isweird.
I could feel myself touch theback of my hand, but I could not
feel how hard I was touching it.
I was numb to pressure and soit all came back fine eventually
.
But the other thing I want tosay about that is that there was
never any pain, and so you cancause nerve issues without
actually you know the warningpain.
(18:57):
So just be aware of that kindof stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah.
And to say, like you know, whenI'm talking to anybody I'm
tying up, especially since Iconsider myself a beginner,
which honestly it's.
It's an interesting thing andmost of the rope community
people I've been with evenpeople have been tying for like
10 years or still, like you know, but like I've probably been
like three, three, four yearsnow and not tying like super,
super regularly but tie a lot.
And so anybody I tie, I waslike listen, it is very, very
(19:20):
important to me.
If I'm tying you up andanything at all feels strange,
say it immediately.
You know, circulation stuff isnot an emergency.
Anything else is an emergency.
And I was like if you tell me aleg is numb, we can take the
time to fix that.
If you tell me that like Ican't feel two of my fingers but
I can feel the rest of them,I'm like hurry up, get out.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
Yeah, I did a music video one time and there was a
rigor involved on the setbecause my character was being
murdered by this couple and Ihad to go to her place
beforehand to kind of go throughit, before we actually shot it
on the day, and she was so likestrict about me being vocal with
(19:59):
anything and she was like andit was a pretty intense tie up
that I was in she was like I canget you out in 40 seconds flat.
She was like, so just, you gotto just do that.
And the entire time we were onset she was like I even felt
like my body could have gonelonger, but she was just so
overly careful and I reallyappreciated that because I felt
super safe with her.
But it also gave me the thoughtof like, oh, this could go
(20:19):
badly, Like if someone left mehere, this could be really
terrible.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Well, and that's the next thing I would talk about in
the safety talk is that if youhave made someone helpless, they
are your responsibility.
You should have a plan for ifthe building catches on fire,
you know, and it should be abetter plan than just like good
luck, I'll be out front.
And so some people will saythat you should never leave
somebody that is bound alone ina room and I am like I said
(20:45):
earlier, I'm not going to sayanything, absolutely so.
I mean, I think if you've tiedsomebody's wrists together in
front and then you need to go tothe bathroom, go ahead, you'll
be all right.
I mean, if the house does catchon fire, they can still get
outside.
They can even pound on the dooron the way out and say, hey, I
smell smoke, but if you've gotsomebody you know hogtied and
blindfolded, you better hold it.
You know.
You better wait until they'refree, and you should also have a
(21:08):
quick way to get them out ofthat.
If you're tying, you shouldhave a cutting tool of some kind
on you and know how to use it.
I use I cheat because I havethis on me all the time.
This is a Gerber multi toolthat has it's sharp on the blade
but it's dull right there, so Ican slip it up under rope and
cut.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Have you ever had an instance where you had to do
that?
Speaker 3 (21:30):
If anybody has been tying for a while and they
answer that question negatively,don't tie with them.
Okay.
Okay, because this stuff, yeah,it happens occasionally.
I mean, I've been doing thisfor a long time and I probably
cut rope Occasionally.
Cut rope for fun, but I cutrope in a semi-emergency type
(21:51):
situation.
I've never had a real emergencysemi-emergency type situation,
probably twice a year.
Okay, yeah, that's average.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, I've only come close one time.
I messed up a Somervillebowline and it collapsed and I
was having a hard enough timegetting it out and the person
was like I'm having some nervethings and I was like I
literally had it next to me andif I hadn't gotten down 10 more
seconds I would have beencutting it off.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, and so and I'll tell a story on myself probably
my most recent time that I cutrope I have a good friend who
trusted me with something.
She was six months pregnant, ohand yeah, and so that was kind
of a big thing and we wanted todo something together and we
tried this thing and about threequarters of the way through it
(22:36):
she started to feel faint, likeshe was going to pass out, and
so I don't know what happened.
I mean, this thing is on me myentire adult life.
I reached in the pocket whereit's yeah, I reached in the
pocket where it's supposed to be.
It wasn't there.
I don't even remember why itwasn't.
I've got a pagoda here where Ido tying and we were right there
.
My live-in partner hadsuggested that we put shears on,
(22:56):
like a month before.
I'm like, yeah, let's do that.
And so I had kind of built-insuspenders there and the woman
that I tied didn't notice thatthere was a problem, just took
the shears out and cut them down.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Thank goodness for the shears.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
I gave my partner big props for that.
Yes, and the thing there, too,is that you got to be humble,
because some people get good atthis and they assume that they
can do no wrong.
I've been doing this for a longtime and I will still screw up
against them, yep.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You know, as people have asked me about like getting
rope and like picking rigorsand stuff, one of the first
things I say is, like go toclasses.
The best thing you do is likeget around people who've been
doing it a long time so you canget your own vibe and feel for
it.
I understand social anxiety andI'm going to be around a lot of
people, but I think,specifically in this, being able
to look at someone and liketheir mannerisms and how they
negotiate and do all that isreally really important.
(23:46):
But giant red flags for me forrigors is overconfidence.
Like if they're not willing tobe like oh yeah, I can make
mistakes, it's dangerous thatthings can go wrong.
Like if they're not humble,that can put you in a lot of bad
situations.
And also if, like, they don'ttalk to you at all about like
(24:07):
you and your body and what itneeds, and like come up with
ways to like signal things.
Like if you meet somebody andlike, oh, I'd love for you to
tie me up and they're just likecool, yank out some rope and
start tying you.
That's that those are.
That's a big red flag for me.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
No, you got to rope.
Scenes really need to benegotiated, yeah, in a big way.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
I was like even what kind of thing needs to be like
what does that look like anegotiation?
Negotiation look like Like.
What's like.
If I wanted to go get tied up,what should I ask?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Well, first you should bet your rigor OK, and
when I mean when I say that is,you should, like Tosen said, you
know, does something public.
See if you can watch them tie,see if you know, or if they have
an online presence.
See if it gets some work outthere that looks competent, that
looks like something that you'dbe interested in.
But also and here's the weirdthing, don't you can ask other
(24:54):
rigors about the person thatyou're betting.
You can ask about theircompetence, but they're trusted
for you know, ask bottoms, askpeople what they've tied.
Ok, because rope tops or topsin general, really don't know
for sure what happens in privatebottoms.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, and a significant amount of rope tops
don't ever tie themselves.
Like I, I've done to myselfmost things that have done to
other people.
If it's like feasible, likeshort of suspending myself, like
well, spending my whole body,I've tried to at least give
myself some experience of likewhat it feels like.
But like I, I don't even me, Idon't have the experience of
(25:31):
being completely tied up byanother person, and so I don't
feel comfortable speaking tothat experience.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Well, and as far as negotiation to, in a negotiation
there's kind of two negotiationstyles and if you're
negotiating for the first time,you should should use the
explicit style.
That's where, where you talkabout, you know, we're going to
do rope, we're going to, youknow, maybe do a little impact
play and that's it.
That explicit.
It's like these are the thingswe're going to do and and
(25:58):
nothing else.
The other thing that peoplefall into, because it's it's a
lot easier to talk about, totalk out, just say the implicit
styles like, well, I don't wantto do this or this or this.
That means that anything elsegoes, and it may be that the
bottom who says those threethings is not as imaginative as
the top, and there may be a lotof things that the top can think
(26:21):
of that the bottom doesn't wantto have anything to do with.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, we, we.
And so we had a.
We had a joke episode, orjoking an episode, talking about
that, which was like oh yeah,you can do whatever you want.
And I was like oh, can I dip myfinger in P and poke it in your
eye?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Yeah, right right, yeah Well, but you didn't think
about that Chainsaw play, oh God, you didn't say, we couldn't
right.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Oh my God, no yeah so explicit.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
And the other thing is I would say to tops is really
, you know, don't be a ruleslawyer on that, because when
we're doing this kind of thing,if I were walking down the
street I mean the things that Ilike to do to people if I were
walking down the street and Igrabbed somebody and started
doing those things, I would bearrested, and rightfully so.
The reason that I can do thesethings in an honorable way, in a
(27:09):
legal way, in an enjoyable way,is that there are people in the
world who want those thingsdone to them, and that symmetry
is what allows the whole BDSMscene to work.
And so if we find those peoplethat allow that, we need to
maintain that.
We need to protect that and, tothat end, we need to protect
(27:30):
the people who are involved.
And so, anytime you'renegotiating, if you think you've
found a loophole, don't exploitit.
Use the spirit of thenegotiation with a letter.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, don't be a rules lawyer and the spirit of
the negotiation like leaningtowards the most safe and most
restrictive version.
And I bring that up because Ihad heard of a situation where,
like somebody wanted to be in alike a fairly rough CNC thing,
but like had hit on during thescene, had hit upon a trigger
(28:01):
that it could be easy tointerpret that like oh yeah,
this is exactly what you wantand this is what you describe
that you wanted.
But the bottom was surprisedthemselves that that happened.
And so, like you can interpretthe spirit of a negotiation and
be like yeah, do what you toldme not to do, because that's how
it goes.
But the spirit of negotiation islike take care of the person in
(28:21):
front of you.
Like it's one of the thingsthat I love so much about.
Like BDSM in general and Kingin general is like the type of
trust and care that's underneaththese.
What a lot of people woulddescribe as despicable things,
is really really beautiful to me.
Like I'm just like and I waslike look, look, how romantic it
is that you're trying to findways to do safe words so that
(28:42):
you can drown somebody in amurky pool.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
That's so beautiful.
I've done that actually.
I mean it was a murky, but oursafe word I mean, as I, she was
bound and I was standing on herin the shallow end of a pool her
safe word, which was really oursignal for me to let her up,
was just for her to wiggle herbutt and that worked great.
(29:05):
She loved it.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah, now, I think the murky pool one was holding a
, holding a balloon underwater,and so you know it's the one
when you see the balloon game,right, I was like, yeah, that
was like that's beautiful, likea whole, like the person like
presented in a public forum thatwe were in and we like, hey, my
friend wants to do the scene.
I'm kind of I haven't reallythought about like a good,
reliable mechanism for this.
(29:28):
Anybody have any ideas.
And he thought, and I was likethis is great, this is beautiful
, this is so romantic.
I think I saw that scene.
Is this recent?
Yeah, you're in pinky, itwasn't pinkie.
Somebody wanted yeah, basically,somebody wanted to like do like
a kidnapping, drowning scenewhere they're like basically
strangling somebody under dirty,murky water and we're like I
don't know how we're going tosignal it, she won't be, she'll
(29:49):
be gagged, she'll be.
I'm not like going to bethrowing her around under water,
so it'll be hard to see.
And so when he came up with theballoon idea, I didn't see the
scene actually happen.
I wish I had that.
It looks like a fascinatingtime, but I was in the thread of
the discussion for it.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
So that's pretty much my whole safety talk, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
And I appreciate it.
I was like, yeah, I found itsuper valuable and like I've
taken a lot of those things withme, especially the like the
person you tie up is yourresponsibility.
Have a plan for getting themout if there's a fire.
Like I had a partner that I had, like you know, somewhat of
like a chest harness with theirarms in front of them, and they
were like I really need a waffle.
And I'm like, cool, I'll gomake you a waffle.
I was like no, I want to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I need a waffle in the middle of being tied up.
What and?
Speaker 1 (30:28):
they were like I want to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I need a snack.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
And their legs were open and stuff and it's like,
like you said, the 1% risk thereis.
You know, if you don't haveyour hands free and you fall,
you can't break your fall and soyou can hurt yourself really
bad.
And I was just like, hey, can Imake the waffle?
But they really want to do itand I'm like, look, I'll, you
can make.
If it's important to you, youcan go make.
You know, you can make thewaffle, but I'm standing next to
(30:51):
you the whole time.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Yeah, and that's the right compromise to make.
I mean, let them walk around,but just make them aware that if
they fall, they're not going tobe able to do this.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
You have a favorite tie, like a favorite go to tie
that you just love, or is itjust whatever the mood strikes?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I kind of do and it's .
It's really pretty simple.
I like something called an armbinder.
It's basically a strict ropebehind the back.
It's kind of a cool liketriangle shape of the arms and
it makes people have very goodposture.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
Oh, yeah, oh do you have?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
are there multiple kind of ropes, Like, is there a
type of rope that people shouldnot do use if somebody's
listening and they're just like,I'm going to go to home depot
with some rope?
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Don't go to home depot with your rope.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Go to home depot and get some rope.
I have rope in my in my bag,like golfers have golf clubs.
Different kinds of rope fordifferent things.
There's a lot of people I meanthe strict Eastern style people
use handmade jute and it'swonderful, I love it, but it is.
It is caveman technology, it istwisted grass and so it's not
(31:59):
as strong as some other thingsmight be.
In fact it's.
I mean, cotton is the onlything that you might use.
The cotton is wonderful forbondage.
Don't suspend with it.
And jute it's got such awonderful feel and it holds a
knot so well, but it's it's.
It's not as strong as somethings.
A lot of people use it for uplines and I'm okay with that,
(32:19):
but I personally that's outsidemy risk factor.
I use jute on the body and thenI'll use something else for an
up line.
Hemp is another naturalmaterial.
That's it's saw and strongerthan jute.
I might use that for an up line, but I'm more likely to use a
man made like nylon or orsomething like that.
Nylon is wonderfully colorfuland it's big.
You can use it also for like.
(32:41):
If you're going to do somethingin the pool or something like
that, you can use a rope.
You can throw it in the washingmachine, wash it and dry it,
and it'll be fine.
You do that with jute rope andyou just have a washing machine
full of grass.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
That would make.
I'm sure that's happened andthen made somebody very sad.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
And I've heard that when, when they whoa a dollar a
foot.
Yeah, I've heard that theimpressions that the rope leaves
on you are called Shabarikisses.
Is that accurate?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
They, they, certainly you can call them that.
There's a lot of nomenclaturethat gets batted back and forth
and Shabari kisses is good.
I tied a person for a littlewhile that had a tattoo on her
foot and it was a rope mark andit was very realistic.
I was like I didn't put anyrope there and they're like,
yeah, that's been there for ayear, but they had.
(33:31):
They had taken a photograph ofan actual rope mark and took it
to the tattoo artist.
That's super cool yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
That is really awesome.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Yeah, shabari kisses is actually one I haven't heard
yet.
Oh yeah, something else I wantto ask is, like you talked to me
on it a little bit, there'slots of different like
motivations for why people likelike to do rope.
There are people who like to doit because they like making
people pretty.
There are people who enjoy thesurrender aspect of it.
There are people who like thetactile, mathematical challenge.
What would you say is like whatis your motivation like behind
(34:01):
it and what's been like aninteresting motivation you've
heard or seen from somebody else.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Well, I have two motivations and it really kind
of goes to two different stylesKind of desperate, like almost,
I call it, kind of dark.
Almost CNC type rope is what Imentioned earlier.
the pocket region, that's whatdoes it for me and so that
erotic type of forced orgasmtype, stuff like that, that's
what I enjoy in the bedroom.
(34:26):
But I also am very muchenamored of the artistic style
of making someone a piece of art, you know, whether it be a
suspension or even.
I've done some things I likethere's kind of an
objectification fetish.
I've done things like here inAustin there's a big party that
happens once a month calledshrine and there's like 300, 400
people in this big room.
(34:47):
And I will take a beautifulperson and tie them to a pole in
like clear view of everyone,and I will just stand back and
leave them there for a while sothat people can admire them as
they're found and so that thatartistic that that making person
a beautiful, a person abeautiful object is something I
enjoy as well.
As far as other people'smotivations, some people like
(35:08):
those things from the, from theother end, or I'd be bored, but
also there's a lot of peoplethat I mean BDSM acts, aspects
of it is like submission, butthere's also some people that
are challenged by it.
They want to.
It's almost like a athleticchallenge to endure this thing.
That may be painful ordifficult and is so, and a
(35:28):
dolphin rush is something thatthey're looking for in that
situation.
I know a lot of self-tires wholike to tie themselves up and
create their own art in that way, and so there's a lot of
accomplishment in that.
One of the best riggers inAustin is a lady named Kim Lee,
and I have seen her tie herselfand suspend herself from one leg
(35:51):
and then have her submissive ison the floor and she will,
hanging upside down, tie thatperson and then suspend it.
It's an amazing level of skill.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I'm in awe of it.
Yeah no, kim Lee is one of theother ones that I brought up as
some of the best teachers inAustin.
She definitely gave me one ofmy other formative rope
experiences.
She runs a thing calledReclamation Rope, which is kind
of.
Her and another partner who's aBlack person Teach rope in a
space that's for people of color, because rope has a couple of
(36:25):
sides to it in regards to beinga Black person and so being in
that space.
Up until that point I've beenreally like I don't want to do
things in front of people thatI'm not 100 percent sure are
going to be good.
Right, like, I think thelargest risk I've ever taken
outside of Reclamation Rope wasthe first suspension I did that
you helped me with who, by theway, like she's still giggles
about that all the day.
She was really, reallyimpressed with, like your
(36:47):
consent technique on that.
For everybody that's unaware ofit, I was tying somebody up for
the first time and thensuspending them for the first
time and I was like I reallywant to be supervised.
Jake lovingly helped me to doit and he was told me he was
like hey, you probably shouldn'tuse jute for the upline, you
have hemp I'm like I do, and Ineeded him to show me something
like that was about a rope thatwas tied on her back Before he
went to point it out.
(37:07):
He was like is it okay if Itouch her back to show to
somewhere?
This sad, and she's thoroughlyimpressed by that, which is a
good baseline.
Everybody should do that.
But like, that was great.
So up until that I had not doneanything that was too risky and
Kim had put this in a situationthat was like okay, me who I
also agree, I would easily putas one of the best in Austin and
this and another person aregoing to stand next to these two
(37:30):
poles and you three are goingto one, one tie at one, not at a
time go through and makesomething out of us, right?
So me, they are going to sithere and we're going to pick a
position that we're going tostand in for a significant
amount of time enough time forthree people to completely tie
them up through three hanks ofrope, one out of the time to do
that, and it's me and two otherpeople and it was like I was
(37:51):
losing my mind inside.
So I was like oh man, I have toimprovise over somebody else's
rope and I have to come up withsolutions for things, and the
whole time these two people areuncomfortably standing in this
location, and one of them isquite what I would literally
consider one of the best ropepeople in Austin.
But you know, getting throughthat, it was like it gave me a
brand new type of freedom ofbeing like oh, I can do whatever
I want, safely, of course, butlike I was like there's way more
(38:12):
than just like half hitches andsingle colon ties and TKs, like
you can make all kinds ofthings.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Well, there's a lot of.
There's a lot of gatekeeping, Ithink, in rope and it's and I
try to tell people that rope isnot rocket science.
A rope is is kind of like.
It's like music.
I mean, you could learn on apiano to play chopsticks in
about 10 minutes right, and thatis music right.
And so you can learn real ropein a small amount of time and
(38:38):
use that to have fun safelyrelatively safe.
That being said, the more youpractice, the better you get,
the more you're able to achieve.
And so don't don't beintimidated by it.
If you don't suck at it first,you're never, you're never going
to get good at it, true ofeverything.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
Yeah, yeah, you think Harry Houdini was into rope.
So do you think Harry Houdiniwas into, like, rope play,
because he was always tyinghimself up?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
And let other people do it.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
Yeah, and like I think that's how he died too.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Yeah, rupptridge spleen while he was and goped
under water Good.
One of my early internetsearches used to be and I want
to say that I am 98% hetero, andso much of it by.
If I use pronouns, it's it'sfrom my bias, but so Ruppus for
everybody.
Though just because I talkabout a woman or her being in
(39:29):
rope, ruppus for.
But interrupting myself, I usedto search the internet for
women escape artists so I couldsee when I just to see if they
could escape your knots.
Yeah Well to see him boundbefore that.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Watch them.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
We get creative and take the stuff out.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yeah, how long?
What is your longest ropesession?
Like, what is that longestamount of time you spent tying
somebody up?
Speaker 3 (39:52):
That question gets asked a lot.
I have done intimate rope withpeople that lasted an entire
weekend.
That was not a single tie, butwe made a pack that I would have
rope on that person for theentire weekend, 48 hours.
Some of that was pretty simpleand some of it was pretty
complex, but any particular tieI think the longest that I've
had somebody in a particular tieis like two hours.
(40:14):
Usually it's more like 45minutes.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
And if it takes 45 minutes to tie somebody up, how
long do they hang out in that?
Speaker 3 (40:21):
tie.
It depends on what you're, whatyou're doing.
Sometimes suspensions will takea long time to set up and then
you get them in the air and youknow they may only be there for
a minute.
So if you're taking photos, getit.
Get it done quickly.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yes, I've noticed that the one I've observed it at
Shrine or somewhere usuallytakes a long time to get them up
and then as soon as they're init, they're like mess with them
for 30 seconds and then takethem right back out.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Well, if it's 30 seconds or a minute, then
something is not quite right,unless you're going for
something extreme.
But those things that are notquite right happen all the time,
and so you should be preparedfor a suspension till the last
30 seconds or a minute.
The longest suspension thatI've done is probably I've done
an hour.
Oh, in the air for an hour,yeah, wow.
(41:03):
And there's suspensions.
And then there's suspensions.
I mean, if you look at ahammock that's made out of rope,
that is a rope suspension.
Now, most Shabari is not nearlythat comfortable.
On purpose it's supposed.
Some people say it's supposedto hurt.
I say that it's only supposedto hurt if the bottom wants it
to hurt or if everybody hasagreed that it should hurt.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
It's usually going to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, we're about it an hour.
Is there anything that youthink is important to say to
people who might be listeningand be into rope or want to get
into rope?
Like what's the most, nopressure, but like what am I
trying?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
to ask what's the most important thing about rope
that anyone could ever know?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Say it right now, that's what I wanted to ask
Don't be stupid.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
I already said that, but I would say, if you want to
start this type of thing, ifyou're lucky enough to find it
to be in a place where they havelocal rope groups, if you're an
Austin, come to Austin RopeSlingers or nearby, come check
us out.
We do stuff every Monday andthere are places, groups like
Austin Rope Slingers throughoutthe country.
(42:05):
If you are not lucky enough tobe in one of those places, seek
out.
You can find some greatresources on the internet, but I
always ask people the questionif you were trying to learn how
to ride a bicycle, how manyinternet videos would it take
for you to?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
learn.
What a great analogy.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Yeah, so you're not going to learn everything from
watching a video, and so themost important thing that a rope
top can have is a willing ropebottom, and so that's, that can
be difficult for some people.
That's, you can't learn to playthe piano without a piano.
You can that.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
True fact?
Yeah, Question for you.
We have this segment of theshow called Facy Tries it, where
I try every king possible thatwe talk about.
Would you be willing to tie meup?
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Fuck yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
And beyond that, you know it's.
I mean fuck yeah, that's.
You know.
Fuck yes or no?
Yes, fuck yes, but I mean wewould need to negotiate, but we
could do that offline.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I love negotiating.
Would you be okay if we filmedit?
Yes, amazing, fuck yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
I love this.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
I've always wanted to be tied up to.
This is the first case he triesit where I'm like this is what
I want to do.
So, yeah, let's chat offline.
I'll get to him so you cancontact him, so, and I'll
connect with him and we'llfigure out how to get to them.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Okay, Well, I'm on.
I'm on the internet all overthe internet.
I've got SpetLife is Jakeunderscore wing on.
I've had like four Instagramsnow, so I think it's just Jake
underscore wing, underscore IVfor four.
And then on Facebook, I'm justJake wing Does.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Instagram keep shutting you down.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Three times so far yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
That's how you know it's a good page.
Thanks, do something right,yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Yeah, the last one I had.
I was playing their game tryingto, and I got up to like 19,000
phones, so oh fuck, yeah,Amazing.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Well, all right, jake , this is incredible.
Thank you so much for guessingon our podcast.
I know to, since I've seen yourname for a while and trying to
get you on, so we reallyappreciate you coming out and
talking about it oh yeah, yeah,and if you love the show, feel
free to become one of ourpatrons on Patreon.
But you can find the link tothat on our website, little
renegadefilmscom.
(44:11):
You can also make a one timedonation on the website.
We also have a form that youcan find on the website.
You can already getgadefilmscom.
You go to podcasts, you go totalk to me.
You'll find a link to a formyou can go out.
If you want to be a guest onthe podcast, if you suggest
somebody that you think would bea great guest, if you have
topics you want us to discussKings we haven't talked about.
(44:31):
I've been doing that.
Fill it out and we will do it.
So head over there.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, and on that end , speaking of being a band, we
will be doing a talk dirty to me, only fans so we can show some
of the Casey Trizards and somecontent that we're not going to
do here.
For example, right after this,I'm going to be showing
Stephanie and Casey the poemthat I wrote that has a
religious lean to it, and if youwant to catch that reaction,
(44:57):
that will be one of the firstthings that we put up there.
Yeah, yeah, please go check itout.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah.
So thank you all you sexybeasts for listening in.
Until next time.
Let's all not be stupid, butalso tie one another up.
Sounds great, there, you go Allright Bye.
Speaker 5 (45:13):
All right, Bye.
Talk.
Dirty to Me is a podcast byLittle Renegade Films.
It stars Sarah Marie Currie,Casey Sammie Casey why don't?
You sound real sexy while youdo it, Do I no?
Speaker 4 (45:25):
why don't you oh?
Speaker 5 (45:26):
why don't I?
Speaker 4 (45:27):
Yeah, like you remember how you read your
synopsis, yeah.
Speaker 5 (45:29):
Oh, you want me to do it like that.
Yes, okay, genius, okay.
Talk Dirty to Me is a podcastby Little Renegade Films.
It stars Sarah Marie Currie,casey Sammie, tosan Alifaso and
Stephanie Spiegel, with silentcontributions by Taylor Novak.
(45:50):
Title and closing themes byTosan Alifaso.
Follow us on the social mediasat Talk Dirty to Me pod and for
more of our offerings, go tolittlerenegadefilmscom.
Well, well, well, go ahead and open up your ears,
your mind and whatever else youneed.
You listen to talk dirty to me.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello all you sexy bees and welcome back to Talk
Dirty to Me, the podcast wherethree friends with three
different perspectives on kink,fetish and sex talk dirty to one
another.
And with us today we have TosinAloufaso, the kink oracle.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Stephanie Slayton, the queen of spankos.
Oh hi, there Me, daisy, yourneighbor Femme Dom, and I
apologize, I'm the problem.
Today there's weird audio.
It's because I'm on a work tripand I couldn't bring my fancy
microphone, but it doesn'tmatter, because we have a
fucking fantastic guest for youtoday that I'm super pumped
about.
Tosin, you want to take it away?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yes, absolutely so.
I am happy and honored andproud to introduce Jake Wing.
He is one of the founders andinstructors of Austin Rope
Slingers.
If you've heard my story withJourney and Learning Rope,
that's one of the first places Iwent to to ever to go tie
somebody up or like get likeprofessional rope training at.
They've been going on for quitesome time and I'll let Jake
(01:18):
give you the details on it, buthe's been doing for a while.
We've been wanting to do anepisode talking about Shabari
and rope and rope bondage.
Personally, you're one of thebest people I can think of to
talk about it with.
You know it was a couple of therope people in the community
were hoping to get on too, butI'm glad we got you here as well
.
So yeah, jake, they hide.
Tell us how you got in the ropeand anything else that I missed
about you in that intro.
Cool.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Hello folks.
As far as how I got into rope,that's an old story.
I mean back puberty.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I want to hear it.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yes, please.
Okay, me too I read a lot ofcomic books and there was a
Wonder Woman comic book whereshe got tied to the railroad
tracks with her own golden lassoand I was about 13 when I read
that and it created funnyfeelings in my pocket region.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Pocket region.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
But so it was definitely something that
interested me, and when Istarted being an adult and
sexually active that's the mainthing that I do in the bedroom
is people up and throughout the20th century anyway, I didn't do
it very well.
Nobody, nobody was teaching itback then, and so I was trying
to reverse engineer it from badporn.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Reverse engineering from bad porn is unfortunately a
lot of us guys.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And so then in the 21st century, I found the
partner that was very interestedin it as well and we started a
website in 2000, which ran forabout two and a half years.
Never made much money I meanmore than beer money but it was
fun to do and I've been tyingkind of publicly and in the
scene ever since then, Probablyin the last 10 years or so, I've
(02:51):
been teaching various placesAustin, Roots and yours, as
mentioned, but also I teach somestuff nationally and privately.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I have a couple things to say.
This is not the first time Ihave heard of somebody saying
the old Wonder Woman comicsgetting them into rope.
Like apparently it's a thingwhich is fascinating.
I want to go back and read themnow.
There's like some low levelsecret kink in that comic series
.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
It's not even all that secret.
Also lots of stuff, oh really.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I'm going to read it now.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Wonder Woman does get spanked in an inordinate amount
.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Yes, there's a film about the creator of the Wonder
Woman comics, and both he andhis partner were into BDSM and
rope tying and spanking, and soI think that it just kind of
crept in there, and they werePolly also.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And they were what they were.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Polly Amorous.
Yes, yes, and they were Polly.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
When did you so?
You saw that in a comic book at13.
What was the moment yourealized that tying people up
was a thing, though, like it wasa kink, like when was the first
time you saw it for real and Iwas like, oh shit, that's
something I can actually do.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
You mean something other than like in dramas, or
you know?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Well, I'm imagining when you were 13, you probably
saw it didn't go.
Oh, I understand that.
That's a whole kink unto itselfthat I can actually enact on
other people Like you, probablyjust like that's hot and I don't
know why.
Right, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I'm going to show my age here.
I'm 61 years old, so this waslike the 70s, you know, and
there was no internet.
There was no.
I grew up in Oklahoma.
I thought I was alone, Ithought I was sick, you know,
and so it took me a long time tofind out that there were other
people like me yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Do you remember the moment where you saw Shabari or
Rottach for the first time?
Or like, oh my God, I am partof a community.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, I was born again, but kind of an inclusive
born.
It was a company called HarmonyPublications and they put out a
bunch of bondage magazines andone of them was called Bondage
Life and it was not just, youknow, professional photographers
and professional models.
They took letters and stufffrom other people all over the
country and submissions and theywould I mean, there was amateur
(05:04):
work in there in that magazineand that's what kind of clued me
in that I.
There were other people wholiked.
So then, you know, I had acouple of.
Well, I had a partner, finallythat she was a little older than
I was, but I was like this wasmy early twenties.
I'm like let's try this thing.
She agreed and West was history.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
That's so cool.
How did you become good at it,like if it was?
You know, back in the day therewas nobody teaching, did you?
Was it just searching for?
I don't know, like.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
A lot of it, trial and error, and I got to tell you
that really I didn't becomegood until I mean I was doing it
10 or 15 years, based on youknow what I was seeing and born
and what I learned by you know,figuring it out.
But I really didn't until I sawsome people doing it, doing it
well, and got some instructions.
Back in 2002, there's a grouphere in Austin called Gwynn
(05:53):
group, with no name, and theyhave everything something called
the Gwynn Bash of a year, andthey brought in a Shibari person
, famous at that time, stillfamous, a lady named Midori, and
I took a class from her, andthat's when I I started to
understand the importance oftension.
I got some understanding theway that the Eastern stuff
worked, because I had been doingpretty much damsel and distress
(06:15):
type work throughout the 20thcentury.
I will say that I found when Iwas 17,.
I found a magazine in the backof a used bookstore in Beaumont,
texas, and it was a Japanesemagazine.
It was and it was all prettyAsian women tied up with Cicil
rope and like a single tearrolling down the cheek, and it
was hot and different.
(06:36):
And so I knew what Japaneserope was.
I just didn't know how to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah, and you bring up something that was like I
didn't even consider until I hadheard you talk about it, which
was my introduction to rope wasgoing to a play party at the
Bakanaw and seeing Tom it'sanother person in the community
who's tied a lot of people up,tied someone up and I just was
transfixed and like mostly atjust like watching someone I had
been seen running around theparty like very graceful, very
(07:02):
flexible, very bubbly and likefunctional, slowly lose all of
their ability to like doanything, like the time it took
to like get her tied up and putup in suspension.
And you know, this person thatI've seen like that had like so
much energy and was like runningaround and stuff just being
like completely like blissed outand relaxed and spinning around
like complete loss of controlover all of her limbs.
I was just like well that I'min that, that I want that, I
(07:26):
want to make people make thatface and it looked beautiful and
it was like I was like I likedmaking art out of people and he
was doing shabari and I didn'teven realize there was a
difference until you had broughtup like a western rope and
eastern rope are different fromeach other.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I mean there's definitely some similarities and
duplication.
I think maybe you know peopleyou're tying human bodies and so
some, some ways of doing thatis going to be similar to the
matter where you come up with it.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I did not know.
There were two different styles.
There's an eastern and awestern.
Can we talk about thedifferences between the two?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Oh, there's probably a lot more than two different
styles, oh no, but those are thetwo main styles.
And and first I need toprobably clarify the terms a
little bit Some people talkabout western rope as if and
what they're talking about iswestern cultures interpretation
of eastern rope.
So within the umbrella ofshabari, you've got easterners
(08:19):
and westerners doing shabari,and so that's not really what
I'm talking about.
When I talk about western rope,I'm talking about more like the
.
It came out of Hollywood andwas on the detective magazines,
the damsel and distress typestuff, and there's also a large
I mean there's still thatdichotomy the west, a lot of the
western riggers are more,there's more money involved in
(08:40):
western rigging.
Modern.
We'll see a lot more websitesdevoted to western rope.
Where people are, they'regagged and bound and there's a
little bit of drama to it, likekidnapping or such as that.
But some of just like thephysical things you'll see is
you're less likely to see asuspension with western rope.
I won't say that you I meanthese are trends, not rules
(09:01):
You're more likely to see a gagin western rope, limbs are more
likely to be together like this,whereas eastern are more likely
to be like this.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, and by by like this, you know, like arms
parallel to your chin, holdingover each other instead of like
out in front of you, or liketied together, or behind you,
yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
And western ropes more likely to use like manmade
rope, nylon or such as that, orthey'll go with cotton.
Eastern rope is more likely tobe jute or hemp.
So there's a lot of differences, but there's a lot of
similarities too, and mypersonal style, I try to blend
them.
I like to do both sometimes inthe same tie.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
So Shibari started as like a form of torture in Japan
.
Yeah, that's like the origin ofShibari.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
More like not so much torture I mean, aspects of it
were torture but it's likeprisoner.
You know ways to restrainprisoners.
One of the things that I knowabout Japanese culture is that
they didn't have much iron onthat little island, and so, you
know, in Europe and Westernworld, blacksmiths were pounding
out chains and the Japanesewere saving the steel for
beautiful, wonderful swords, andso they would use, you know,
(10:05):
natural materials for bindingand building.
That's why you see a lot morelike bamboo and things like that
in Japanese culture than youwould, and really I'm talking
about not modern times butmedieval times.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
That's interesting.
So it came out out of necessity, because that was just the tool
they had to use.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not an expert on that, but yeah, I
think that's that's.
That has something to do withit.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Yeah, I might like nerding out, I'm not an expert
either, but you can't convinceme that it still didn't start
with kinks somewhere in there.
Oh, just like to put all ofthat effort into how beautiful
the rope is, because I googledsome of the images from the
1400s and what they were usingon prisoners and it just seems
like an awful lot of work forrestraining a prisoner.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah.
Yeah, there was like a combatversion of it too.
That would you see.
Yeah, and it's like that youlearned literally, instead of
the sword, you'd be able to like, while in a fight with someone,
be able to like restrain them.
So there's all these like quickthings you can do for like
getting a wrist lock, tying themup, like some of the one rope
stuff that has come out nowstarted with like this combat
(11:12):
style rope things, and it's likethat was.
That was a nerdy hole that wentdown for a little while.
I mean, like you know, japanesesoldiers really out there just
tying people up on thebattlefield committed.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah Well, and I think, you know, I think that if
we just go back to the MiddleAges we're not going back far
enough.
I really think rope is probably, you know, mankind's third tool
.
You know we had the sharp rock,we had the club, and at some
point we made an axe, and we didthat by tying those two things
together, right?
So anytime anybody you knowtalks about inventing rope
bondage, I think probably youknow some caveman did that to
(11:45):
the wife around the campfire.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
So Letting in bully guys, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Actually and you're saying that one of the things I
was going to ask is because Ifound it to be really impactful
is so when you go to, when yougo to a ARS class, there's
usually like some intermediateor advanced technique being
taught in one place, and thenthere's one-on-one class and the
first one-on-one class I took,jake taught and hit your opening
safety talk.
I found to be really good.
(12:11):
So I was going to ask, becauseI think it's good to just here
in general, so if I would loveit if you would give that like
opening safety speech that yougive like about rope and safety
and stuff.
It's like 10 minutes, you sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we like andwe'll pause the next question we
want to, but I think it's areally valuable 10 minutes bill,
so Okay.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
So when I teach beginner rope and also rope
singers, we try to do that.
We have a class every Mondaynight and for some reason,
there's a ton of beginners thatshow up every Monday night, and
so we we teach beginner rope toeveryone, and part of that is to
try to talk about the safety,and so the first thing I talk
about is that rope is a murderweapon.
(12:49):
The rope is an execution method.
Rope is a way to commit suicide.
It's dangerous and you've gotto respect it.
That being said, you know, ourcar is pretty dangerous too.
Fire is pretty dangerous.
These are all things that wedeal with every day, and so I
always tell people that the mostimportant safety rule when
(13:09):
dealing with rope and maybe it'sa lot of things is don't be
stupid, right?
And so when I, the stupid, cancreep up, I want to tell you a
story, and I don't know if thisis I'm pretty sure this is true,
because I've seen it inmultiple places, but they were
all on the internet, so take itwith a grain of salt, but it
sounds very plausible.
A gentleman and two ladiesbecame all became enamored at
(13:31):
each other at a place thishappened in Europe, I believe,
and they had been drinking, andso they decided that it would
all.
It would be a great thing forthem all to go to a private
location and have some kinky,sexy fun.
And so the gentleman tied upthe two ladies both of them and
then took rope and put it aroundone of theirs neck and took it
up over a pipe and then tied itaround the other ladies and then
(13:54):
, because he'd been drinking, hepassed out, and so when he woke
up, one of those ladies wasdead and the other one was in a
coma.
And so I think that the thingthat we can, we can agree on is
that all of those people werestupid.
Is it true story?
You know, I I've been tellingit for a long time and I I know
that I found it on the internetat one point to just because I
wanted to ask that questionmyself, and I did see it.
(14:17):
But don't ask me for the linknow, because I've been telling
that story for quite a while.
But yeah, it's, it's, it's thekind of thing that can happen,
and I think it probably, almostcertainly, has happened.
And I think the thing there isthat and I tell people I don't
want to, you know, we're alladults?
If we're, if you're watchingthis podcast, I hope we're
adults, and so I'm not going tosay never do this, never drink
(14:39):
and do rope, okay, but I wouldsay don't do it while you're
drinking and certainly don't dodangerous things.
I mean, when you're drunk, thestupid sneaks up on you.
If you think there's something,you know, if you're going to do
something and there's about a 1%chance that something bad might
happen, well, if the bad thingthat happens is that you are on
(14:59):
your knees and you fall on yourface and maybe you break your
nose, and if thing is, thingsare terrible, then that's
probably a risk worth taking.
If that, if you find it to befun or enjoyable.
You know, skateboarders takebigger risks than that.
Those same odds, though.
If the risk is, you know, ifit's a 1% risk of failure, but
the result of failure is deathor serious injury, then that's
(15:24):
not cool, that's not enough,that's not enough certainty, and
you can't make this stuff safe.
But you can make it safer.
You can be smart about it, youcan not be stupid.
And so my cat wants to join.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
They should Toes, and we can't hear you.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Okay, all right, still hear me.
Oh sorry, that was me.
Yeah, no, we're cat friendlyhere.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
We get cats walking all over, stuff everywhere.
Trust me.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
If, sam, we would take a four minute diversion to
talk about kitties, okay.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
So you know, sort of death.
There are some safetyconsiderations.
Again, as long as you're asyou're not stupid, as long as
you're smart about it, probablynot going to encounter the
situation that's that dangerous.
But you know, when people talkabout rope they always talk
about what the oh my God, you'regoing to cut off your
circulation, right?
So really, you heard that atsome point.
And rope, you're going to cutoff your circulation.
(16:14):
Well that's not as much of arisk Because everybody thinks I
mean, we've all gone to sleep onour arm and woken up with it
all weird and it's tingly and itbarely moves, and then five
minutes later it's fine, right,and that may have been, we may
have been sleeping on that forhours, okay, and it's not much
of a problem.
I'm not saying that that's notdangerous, but it's not as
(16:35):
dangerous as everybody thinks itis.
What is kind of a risk is thatrope can impinge your nerves.
So if you put a, you know, acollapsing slip knot on
somebody's wrist and then theystart pulling on it, you can.
There's all kinds of nerves thatare up in your wrist.
You can cause problems formobility, for sensitivity.
(16:56):
There are like three mainnerves that comes through your
arm that can cause problems, andthis is not just.
I mean suspension is whereyou're more likely to encounter
this, because you've got moreweight on that rope.
But you can cause nerve issueswhen you're on the ground,
because anytime you press hardon those nerves you can cause
problems and nerve damage canlast for seconds, minutes, days,
(17:21):
weeks, months or never heal andit's just so.
The other thing I want to sayabout the possibility of nerve
damage is that if you are in therope and it feels weird, it's
probably a nerve impingement.
Okay, I've had people saythings like my hands are big,
what?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
No, they're the same size.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Oh, this is a nerve problem, so I take the rope off
quickly, or sometimes it's justa matter of moving it, getting
it off that nerve.
But if they say somethingthat's unusual, if it feels
unusual, then it's probably anerve issue.
There's a.
The radial nerve comes throughyour upper arm right here, and a
lot of people do tight rope onthat upper arm and you can cause
something called wrist drop inyour hand.
(18:04):
You can do this, but you can'tdo this.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, and it's like holding your hold, your hand
being limp, but you can'tstraighten it back up.
You can't.
You can't keep your hand in ahigh five position and just kind
of like fall through that.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Right, and I actually did that to myself once.
I slept on it wrong and I wokeup and I'm like I know what this
is.
I know exactly what this is andI will tell you that it it's.
I regain full movement in abouttwo minutes.
The whole back of my hand wasnumb.
That came back in about 10minutes and then for the rest of
the day it was weird.
(18:36):
Like I said, nerve stuff isweird.
I could feel myself touch theback of my hand, but I could not
feel how hard I was touching it.
I was numb to pressure and soit all came back fine eventually
.
But the other thing I want tosay about that is that there was
never any pain, and so you cancause nerve issues without
actually you know the warningpain.
(18:57):
So just be aware of that kindof stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah.
And to say, like you know, whenI'm talking to anybody I'm
tying up, especially since Iconsider myself a beginner,
which honestly it's.
It's an interesting thing andmost of the rope community
people I've been with evenpeople have been tying for like
10 years or still, like you know, but like I've probably been
like three, three, four yearsnow and not tying like super,
super regularly but tie a lot.
And so anybody I tie, I waslike listen, it is very, very
(19:20):
important to me.
If I'm tying you up andanything at all feels strange,
say it immediately.
You know, circulation stuff isnot an emergency.
Anything else is an emergency.
And I was like if you tell me aleg is numb, we can take the
time to fix that.
If you tell me that like Ican't feel two of my fingers but
I can feel the rest of them,I'm like hurry up, get out.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
Yeah, I did a music video one time and there was a
rigor involved on the setbecause my character was being
murdered by this couple and Ihad to go to her place
beforehand to kind of go throughit, before we actually shot it
on the day, and she was so likestrict about me being vocal with
(19:59):
anything and she was like andit was a pretty intense tie up
that I was in she was like I canget you out in 40 seconds flat.
She was like, so just, you gotto just do that.
And the entire time we were onset she was like I even felt
like my body could have gonelonger, but she was just so
overly careful and I reallyappreciated that because I felt
super safe with her.
But it also gave me the thoughtof like, oh, this could go
(20:19):
badly, Like if someone left mehere, this could be really
terrible.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Well, and that's the next thing I would talk about in
the safety talk is that if youhave made someone helpless, they
are your responsibility.
You should have a plan for ifthe building catches on fire,
you know, and it should be abetter plan than just like good
luck, I'll be out front.
And so some people will saythat you should never leave
somebody that is bound alone ina room and I am like I said
(20:45):
earlier, I'm not going to sayanything, absolutely so.
I mean, I think if you've tiedsomebody's wrists together in
front and then you need to go tothe bathroom, go ahead, you'll
be all right.
I mean, if the house does catchon fire, they can still get
outside.
They can even pound on the dooron the way out and say, hey, I
smell smoke, but if you've gotsomebody you know hogtied and
blindfolded, you better hold it.
You know.
You better wait until they'refree, and you should also have a
(21:08):
quick way to get them out ofthat.
If you're tying, you shouldhave a cutting tool of some kind
on you and know how to use it.
I use I cheat because I havethis on me all the time.
This is a Gerber multi toolthat has it's sharp on the blade
but it's dull right there, so Ican slip it up under rope and
cut.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Have you ever had an instance where you had to do
that?
Speaker 3 (21:30):
If anybody has been tying for a while and they
answer that question negatively,don't tie with them.
Okay.
Okay, because this stuff, yeah,it happens occasionally.
I mean, I've been doing thisfor a long time and I probably
cut rope Occasionally.
Cut rope for fun, but I cutrope in a semi-emergency type
(21:51):
situation.
I've never had a real emergencysemi-emergency type situation,
probably twice a year.
Okay, yeah, that's average.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, I've only come close one time.
I messed up a Somervillebowline and it collapsed and I
was having a hard enough timegetting it out and the person
was like I'm having some nervethings and I was like I
literally had it next to me andif I hadn't gotten down 10 more
seconds I would have beencutting it off.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, and so and I'll tell a story on myself probably
my most recent time that I cutrope I have a good friend who
trusted me with something.
She was six months pregnant, ohand yeah, and so that was kind
of a big thing and we wanted todo something together and we
tried this thing and about threequarters of the way through it
(22:36):
she started to feel faint, likeshe was going to pass out, and
so I don't know what happened.
I mean, this thing is on me myentire adult life.
I reached in the pocket whereit's yeah, I reached in the
pocket where it's supposed to be.
It wasn't there.
I don't even remember why itwasn't.
I've got a pagoda here where Ido tying and we were right there
.
My live-in partner hadsuggested that we put shears on,
(22:56):
like a month before.
I'm like, yeah, let's do that.
And so I had kind of built-insuspenders there and the woman
that I tied didn't notice thatthere was a problem, just took
the shears out and cut them down.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Thank goodness for the shears.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
I gave my partner big props for that.
Yes, and the thing there, too,is that you got to be humble,
because some people get good atthis and they assume that they
can do no wrong.
I've been doing this for a longtime and I will still screw up
against them, yep.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You know, as people have asked me about like getting
rope and like picking rigorsand stuff, one of the first
things I say is, like go toclasses.
The best thing you do is likeget around people who've been
doing it a long time so you canget your own vibe and feel for
it.
I understand social anxiety andI'm going to be around a lot of
people, but I think,specifically in this, being able
to look at someone and liketheir mannerisms and how they
negotiate and do all that isreally really important.
(23:46):
But giant red flags for me forrigors is overconfidence.
Like if they're not willing tobe like oh yeah, I can make
mistakes, it's dangerous thatthings can go wrong.
Like if they're not humble,that can put you in a lot of bad
situations.
And also if, like, they don'ttalk to you at all about like
(24:07):
you and your body and what itneeds, and like come up with
ways to like signal things.
Like if you meet somebody andlike, oh, I'd love for you to
tie me up and they're just likecool, yank out some rope and
start tying you.
That's that those are.
That's a big red flag for me.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
No, you got to rope.
Scenes really need to benegotiated, yeah, in a big way.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
I was like even what kind of thing needs to be like
what does that look like anegotiation?
Negotiation look like Like.
What's like.
If I wanted to go get tied up,what should I ask?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Well, first you should bet your rigor OK, and
when I mean when I say that is,you should, like Tosen said, you
know, does something public.
See if you can watch them tie,see if you know, or if they have
an online presence.
See if it gets some work outthere that looks competent, that
looks like something that you'dbe interested in.
But also and here's the weirdthing, don't you can ask other
(24:54):
rigors about the person thatyou're betting.
You can ask about theircompetence, but they're trusted
for you know, ask bottoms, askpeople what they've tied.
Ok, because rope tops or topsin general, really don't know
for sure what happens in privatebottoms.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, and a significant amount of rope tops
don't ever tie themselves.
Like I, I've done to myselfmost things that have done to
other people.
If it's like feasible, likeshort of suspending myself, like
well, spending my whole body,I've tried to at least give
myself some experience of likewhat it feels like.
But like I, I don't even me, Idon't have the experience of
(25:31):
being completely tied up byanother person, and so I don't
feel comfortable speaking tothat experience.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Well, and as far as negotiation to, in a negotiation
there's kind of two negotiationstyles and if you're
negotiating for the first time,you should should use the
explicit style.
That's where, where you talkabout, you know, we're going to
do rope, we're going to, youknow, maybe do a little impact
play and that's it.
That explicit.
It's like these are the thingswe're going to do and and
(25:58):
nothing else.
The other thing that peoplefall into, because it's it's a
lot easier to talk about, totalk out, just say the implicit
styles like, well, I don't wantto do this or this or this.
That means that anything elsegoes, and it may be that the
bottom who says those threethings is not as imaginative as
the top, and there may be a lotof things that the top can think
(26:21):
of that the bottom doesn't wantto have anything to do with.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, we, we.
And so we had a.
We had a joke episode, orjoking an episode, talking about
that, which was like oh yeah,you can do whatever you want.
And I was like oh, can I dip myfinger in P and poke it in your
eye?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Yeah, right right, yeah Well, but you didn't think
about that Chainsaw play, oh God, you didn't say, we couldn't
right.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Oh my God, no yeah so explicit.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
And the other thing is I would say to tops is really
, you know, don't be a ruleslawyer on that, because when
we're doing this kind of thing,if I were walking down the
street I mean the things that Ilike to do to people if I were
walking down the street and Igrabbed somebody and started
doing those things, I would bearrested, and rightfully so.
The reason that I can do thesethings in an honorable way, in a
(27:09):
legal way, in an enjoyable way,is that there are people in the
world who want those thingsdone to them, and that symmetry
is what allows the whole BDSMscene to work.
And so if we find those peoplethat allow that, we need to
maintain that.
We need to protect that and, tothat end, we need to protect
(27:30):
the people who are involved.
And so, anytime you'renegotiating, if you think you've
found a loophole, don't exploitit.
Use the spirit of thenegotiation with a letter.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, don't be a rules lawyer and the spirit of
the negotiation like leaningtowards the most safe and most
restrictive version.
And I bring that up because Ihad heard of a situation where,
like somebody wanted to be in alike a fairly rough CNC thing,
but like had hit on during thescene, had hit upon a trigger
(28:01):
that it could be easy tointerpret that like oh yeah,
this is exactly what you wantand this is what you describe
that you wanted.
But the bottom was surprisedthemselves that that happened.
And so, like you can interpretthe spirit of a negotiation and
be like yeah, do what you toldme not to do, because that's how
it goes.
But the spirit of negotiation islike take care of the person in
(28:21):
front of you.
Like it's one of the thingsthat I love so much about.
Like BDSM in general and Kingin general is like the type of
trust and care that's underneaththese.
What a lot of people woulddescribe as despicable things,
is really really beautiful to me.
Like I'm just like and I waslike look, look, how romantic it
is that you're trying to findways to do safe words so that
(28:42):
you can drown somebody in amurky pool.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
That's so beautiful.
I've done that actually.
I mean it was a murky, but oursafe word I mean, as I, she was
bound and I was standing on herin the shallow end of a pool her
safe word, which was really oursignal for me to let her up,
was just for her to wiggle herbutt and that worked great.
(29:05):
She loved it.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah, now, I think the murky pool one was holding a
, holding a balloon underwater,and so you know it's the one
when you see the balloon game,right, I was like, yeah, that
was like that's beautiful, likea whole, like the person like
presented in a public forum thatwe were in and we like, hey, my
friend wants to do the scene.
I'm kind of I haven't reallythought about like a good,
reliable mechanism for this.
(29:28):
Anybody have any ideas.
And he thought, and I was likethis is great, this is beautiful
, this is so romantic.
I think I saw that scene.
Is this recent?
Yeah, you're in pinky, itwasn't pinkie.
Somebody wanted yeah, basically,somebody wanted to like do like
a kidnapping, drowning scenewhere they're like basically
strangling somebody under dirty,murky water and we're like I
don't know how we're going tosignal it, she won't be, she'll
(29:49):
be gagged, she'll be.
I'm not like going to bethrowing her around under water,
so it'll be hard to see.
And so when he came up with theballoon idea, I didn't see the
scene actually happen.
I wish I had that.
It looks like a fascinatingtime, but I was in the thread of
the discussion for it.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
So that's pretty much my whole safety talk, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
And I appreciate it.
I was like, yeah, I found itsuper valuable and like I've
taken a lot of those things withme, especially the like the
person you tie up is yourresponsibility.
Have a plan for getting themout if there's a fire.
Like I had a partner that I had, like you know, somewhat of
like a chest harness with theirarms in front of them, and they
were like I really need a waffle.
And I'm like, cool, I'll gomake you a waffle.
I was like no, I want to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I need a waffle in the middle of being tied up.
What and?
Speaker 1 (30:28):
they were like I want to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I need a snack.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
And their legs were open and stuff and it's like,
like you said, the 1% risk thereis.
You know, if you don't haveyour hands free and you fall,
you can't break your fall and soyou can hurt yourself really
bad.
And I was just like, hey, can Imake the waffle?
But they really want to do itand I'm like, look, I'll, you
can make.
If it's important to you, youcan go make.
You know, you can make thewaffle, but I'm standing next to
(30:51):
you the whole time.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Yeah, and that's the right compromise to make.
I mean, let them walk around,but just make them aware that if
they fall, they're not going tobe able to do this.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
You have a favorite tie, like a favorite go to tie
that you just love, or is itjust whatever the mood strikes?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I kind of do and it's .
It's really pretty simple.
I like something called an armbinder.
It's basically a strict ropebehind the back.
It's kind of a cool liketriangle shape of the arms and
it makes people have very goodposture.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
Oh, yeah, oh do you have?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
are there multiple kind of ropes, Like, is there a
type of rope that people shouldnot do use if somebody's
listening and they're just like,I'm going to go to home depot
with some rope?
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Don't go to home depot with your rope.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Go to home depot and get some rope.
I have rope in my in my bag,like golfers have golf clubs.
Different kinds of rope fordifferent things.
There's a lot of people I meanthe strict Eastern style people
use handmade jute and it'swonderful, I love it, but it is.
It is caveman technology, it istwisted grass and so it's not
(31:59):
as strong as some other thingsmight be.
In fact it's.
I mean, cotton is the onlything that you might use.
The cotton is wonderful forbondage.
Don't suspend with it.
And jute it's got such awonderful feel and it holds a
knot so well, but it's it's.
It's not as strong as somethings.
A lot of people use it for uplines and I'm okay with that,
(32:19):
but I personally that's outsidemy risk factor.
I use jute on the body and thenI'll use something else for an
up line.
Hemp is another naturalmaterial.
That's it's saw and strongerthan jute.
I might use that for an up line, but I'm more likely to use a
man made like nylon or orsomething like that.
Nylon is wonderfully colorfuland it's big.
You can use it also for like.
(32:41):
If you're going to do somethingin the pool or something like
that, you can use a rope.
You can throw it in the washingmachine, wash it and dry it,
and it'll be fine.
You do that with jute rope andyou just have a washing machine
full of grass.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
That would make.
I'm sure that's happened andthen made somebody very sad.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
And I've heard that when, when they whoa a dollar a
foot.
Yeah, I've heard that theimpressions that the rope leaves
on you are called Shabarikisses.
Is that accurate?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
They, they, certainly you can call them that.
There's a lot of nomenclaturethat gets batted back and forth
and Shabari kisses is good.
I tied a person for a littlewhile that had a tattoo on her
foot and it was a rope mark andit was very realistic.
I was like I didn't put anyrope there and they're like,
yeah, that's been there for ayear, but they had.
(33:31):
They had taken a photograph ofan actual rope mark and took it
to the tattoo artist.
That's super cool yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
That is really awesome.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Yeah, shabari kisses is actually one I haven't heard
yet.
Oh yeah, something else I wantto ask is, like you talked to me
on it a little bit, there'slots of different like
motivations for why people likelike to do rope.
There are people who like to doit because they like making
people pretty.
There are people who enjoy thesurrender aspect of it.
There are people who like thetactile, mathematical challenge.
What would you say is like whatis your motivation like behind
(34:01):
it and what's been like aninteresting motivation you've
heard or seen from somebody else.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Well, I have two motivations and it really kind
of goes to two different stylesKind of desperate, like almost,
I call it, kind of dark.
Almost CNC type rope is what Imentioned earlier.
the pocket region, that's whatdoes it for me and so that
erotic type of forced orgasmtype, stuff like that, that's
what I enjoy in the bedroom.
(34:26):
But I also am very muchenamored of the artistic style
of making someone a piece of art, you know, whether it be a
suspension or even.
I've done some things I likethere's kind of an
objectification fetish.
I've done things like here inAustin there's a big party that
happens once a month calledshrine and there's like 300, 400
people in this big room.
(34:47):
And I will take a beautifulperson and tie them to a pole in
like clear view of everyone,and I will just stand back and
leave them there for a while sothat people can admire them as
they're found and so that thatartistic that that making person
a beautiful, a person abeautiful object is something I
enjoy as well.
As far as other people'smotivations, some people like
(35:08):
those things from the, from theother end, or I'd be bored, but
also there's a lot of peoplethat I mean BDSM acts, aspects
of it is like submission, butthere's also some people that
are challenged by it.
They want to.
It's almost like a athleticchallenge to endure this thing.
That may be painful ordifficult and is so, and a
(35:28):
dolphin rush is something thatthey're looking for in that
situation.
I know a lot of self-tires wholike to tie themselves up and
create their own art in that way, and so there's a lot of
accomplishment in that.
One of the best riggers inAustin is a lady named Kim Lee,
and I have seen her tie herselfand suspend herself from one leg
(35:51):
and then have her submissive ison the floor and she will,
hanging upside down, tie thatperson and then suspend it.
It's an amazing level of skill.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I'm in awe of it.
Yeah no, kim Lee is one of theother ones that I brought up as
some of the best teachers inAustin.
She definitely gave me one ofmy other formative rope
experiences.
She runs a thing calledReclamation Rope, which is kind
of.
Her and another partner who's aBlack person Teach rope in a
space that's for people of color, because rope has a couple of
(36:25):
sides to it in regards to beinga Black person and so being in
that space.
Up until that point I've beenreally like I don't want to do
things in front of people thatI'm not 100 percent sure are
going to be good.
Right, like, I think thelargest risk I've ever taken
outside of Reclamation Rope wasthe first suspension I did that
you helped me with who, by theway, like she's still giggles
about that all the day.
She was really, reallyimpressed with, like your
(36:47):
consent technique on that.
For everybody that's unaware ofit, I was tying somebody up for
the first time and thensuspending them for the first
time and I was like I reallywant to be supervised.
Jake lovingly helped me to doit and he was told me he was
like hey, you probably shouldn'tuse jute for the upline, you
have hemp I'm like I do, and Ineeded him to show me something
like that was about a rope thatwas tied on her back Before he
went to point it out.
(37:07):
He was like is it okay if Itouch her back to show to
somewhere?
This sad, and she's thoroughlyimpressed by that, which is a
good baseline.
Everybody should do that.
But like, that was great.
So up until that I had not doneanything that was too risky and
Kim had put this in a situationthat was like okay, me who I
also agree, I would easily putas one of the best in Austin and
this and another person aregoing to stand next to these two
(37:30):
poles and you three are goingto one, one tie at one, not at a
time go through and makesomething out of us, right?
So me, they are going to sithere and we're going to pick a
position that we're going tostand in for a significant
amount of time enough time forthree people to completely tie
them up through three hanks ofrope, one out of the time to do
that, and it's me and two otherpeople and it was like I was
(37:51):
losing my mind inside.
So I was like oh man, I have toimprovise over somebody else's
rope and I have to come up withsolutions for things, and the
whole time these two people areuncomfortably standing in this
location, and one of them isquite what I would literally
consider one of the best ropepeople in Austin.
But you know, getting throughthat, it was like it gave me a
brand new type of freedom ofbeing like oh, I can do whatever
I want, safely, of course, butlike I was like there's way more
(38:12):
than just like half hitches andsingle colon ties and TKs, like
you can make all kinds ofthings.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Well, there's a lot of.
There's a lot of gatekeeping, Ithink, in rope and it's and I
try to tell people that rope isnot rocket science.
A rope is is kind of like.
It's like music.
I mean, you could learn on apiano to play chopsticks in
about 10 minutes right, and thatis music right.
And so you can learn real ropein a small amount of time and
(38:38):
use that to have fun safelyrelatively safe.
That being said, the more youpractice, the better you get,
the more you're able to achieve.
And so don't don't beintimidated by it.
If you don't suck at it first,you're never, you're never going
to get good at it, true ofeverything.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
Yeah, yeah, you think Harry Houdini was into rope.
So do you think Harry Houdiniwas into, like, rope play,
because he was always tyinghimself up?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
And let other people do it.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
Yeah, and like I think that's how he died too.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Yeah, rupptridge spleen while he was and goped
under water Good.
One of my early internetsearches used to be and I want
to say that I am 98% hetero, andso much of it by.
If I use pronouns, it's it'sfrom my bias, but so Ruppus for
everybody.
Though just because I talkabout a woman or her being in
(39:29):
rope, ruppus for.
But interrupting myself, I usedto search the internet for
women escape artists so I couldsee when I just to see if they
could escape your knots.
Yeah Well to see him boundbefore that.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Watch them.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
We get creative and take the stuff out.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yeah, how long?
What is your longest ropesession?
Like, what is that longestamount of time you spent tying
somebody up?
Speaker 3 (39:52):
That question gets asked a lot.
I have done intimate rope withpeople that lasted an entire
weekend.
That was not a single tie, butwe made a pack that I would have
rope on that person for theentire weekend, 48 hours.
Some of that was pretty simpleand some of it was pretty
complex, but any particular tieI think the longest that I've
had somebody in a particular tieis like two hours.
(40:14):
Usually it's more like 45minutes.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
And if it takes 45 minutes to tie somebody up, how
long do they hang out in that?
Speaker 3 (40:21):
tie.
It depends on what you're, whatyou're doing.
Sometimes suspensions will takea long time to set up and then
you get them in the air and youknow they may only be there for
a minute.
So if you're taking photos, getit.
Get it done quickly.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yes, I've noticed that the one I've observed it at
Shrine or somewhere usuallytakes a long time to get them up
and then as soon as they're init, they're like mess with them
for 30 seconds and then takethem right back out.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Well, if it's 30 seconds or a minute, then
something is not quite right,unless you're going for
something extreme.
But those things that are notquite right happen all the time,
and so you should be preparedfor a suspension till the last
30 seconds or a minute.
The longest suspension thatI've done is probably I've done
an hour.
Oh, in the air for an hour,yeah, wow.
(41:03):
And there's suspensions.
And then there's suspensions.
I mean, if you look at ahammock that's made out of rope,
that is a rope suspension.
Now, most Shabari is not nearlythat comfortable.
On purpose it's supposed.
Some people say it's supposedto hurt.
I say that it's only supposedto hurt if the bottom wants it
to hurt or if everybody hasagreed that it should hurt.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
It's usually going to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, we're about it an hour.
Is there anything that youthink is important to say to
people who might be listeningand be into rope or want to get
into rope?
Like what's the most, nopressure, but like what am I
trying?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
to ask what's the most important thing about rope
that anyone could ever know?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Say it right now, that's what I wanted to ask
Don't be stupid.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
I already said that, but I would say, if you want to
start this type of thing, ifyou're lucky enough to find it
to be in a place where they havelocal rope groups, if you're an
Austin, come to Austin RopeSlingers or nearby, come check
us out.
We do stuff every Monday andthere are places, groups like
Austin Rope Slingers throughoutthe country.
(42:05):
If you are not lucky enough tobe in one of those places, seek
out.
You can find some greatresources on the internet, but I
always ask people the questionif you were trying to learn how
to ride a bicycle, how manyinternet videos would it take
for you to?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
learn.
What a great analogy.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Yeah, so you're not going to learn everything from
watching a video, and so themost important thing that a rope
top can have is a willing ropebottom, and so that's, that can
be difficult for some people.
That's, you can't learn to playthe piano without a piano.
You can that.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
True fact?
Yeah, Question for you.
We have this segment of theshow called Facy Tries it, where
I try every king possible thatwe talk about.
Would you be willing to tie meup?
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Fuck yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
And beyond that, you know it's.
I mean fuck yeah, that's.
You know.
Fuck yes or no?
Yes, fuck yes, but I mean wewould need to negotiate, but we
could do that offline.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I love negotiating.
Would you be okay if we filmedit?
Yes, amazing, fuck yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
I love this.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
I've always wanted to be tied up to.
This is the first case he triesit where I'm like this is what
I want to do.
So, yeah, let's chat offline.
I'll get to him so you cancontact him, so, and I'll
connect with him and we'llfigure out how to get to them.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Okay, Well, I'm on.
I'm on the internet all overthe internet.
I've got SpetLife is Jakeunderscore wing on.
I've had like four Instagramsnow, so I think it's just Jake
underscore wing, underscore IVfor four.
And then on Facebook, I'm justJake wing Does.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Instagram keep shutting you down.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Three times so far yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
That's how you know it's a good page.
Thanks, do something right,yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Yeah, the last one I had.
I was playing their game tryingto, and I got up to like 19,000
phones, so oh fuck, yeah,Amazing.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Well, all right, jake , this is incredible.
Thank you so much for guessingon our podcast.
I know to, since I've seen yourname for a while and trying to
get you on, so we reallyappreciate you coming out and
talking about it oh yeah, yeah,and if you love the show, feel
free to become one of ourpatrons on Patreon.
But you can find the link tothat on our website, little
renegadefilmscom.
(44:11):
You can also make a one timedonation on the website.
We also have a form that youcan find on the website.
You can already getgadefilmscom.
You go to podcasts, you go totalk to me.
You'll find a link to a formyou can go out.
If you want to be a guest onthe podcast, if you suggest
somebody that you think would bea great guest, if you have
topics you want us to discussKings we haven't talked about.
(44:31):
I've been doing that.
Fill it out and we will do it.
So head over there.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, and on that end , speaking of being a band, we
will be doing a talk dirty to me, only fans so we can show some
of the Casey Trizards and somecontent that we're not going to
do here.
For example, right after this,I'm going to be showing
Stephanie and Casey the poemthat I wrote that has a
religious lean to it, and if youwant to catch that reaction,
(44:57):
that will be one of the firstthings that we put up there.
Yeah, yeah, please go check itout.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah.
So thank you all you sexybeasts for listening in.
Until next time.
Let's all not be stupid, butalso tie one another up.
Sounds great, there, you go Allright Bye.
Speaker 5 (45:13):
All right, Bye.
Talk.
Dirty to Me is a podcast byLittle Renegade Films.
It stars Sarah Marie Currie,Casey Sammie Casey why don't?
You sound real sexy while youdo it, Do I no?
Speaker 4 (45:25):
why don't you oh?
Speaker 5 (45:26):
why don't I?
Speaker 4 (45:27):
Yeah, like you remember how you read your
synopsis, yeah.
Speaker 5 (45:29):
Oh, you want me to do it like that.
Yes, okay, genius, okay.
Talk Dirty to Me is a podcastby Little Renegade Films.
It stars Sarah Marie Currie,casey Sammie, tosan Alifaso and
Stephanie Spiegel, with silentcontributions by Taylor Novak.
(45:50):
Title and closing themes byTosan Alifaso.
Follow us on the social mediasat Talk Dirty to Me pod and for
more of our offerings, go tolittlerenegadefilmscom.
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The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
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