S3E7 (Eric) - When You Don't Realize Its Weird

Can jealousy be a catalyst for personal growth? On this episode of "Talk Dirty to Me," we welcome my oldest friend, Eric Sanchez, who shares his unique perspective on polyamorous and ethically non-monogamous relationships. Raised in a family that prioritized equality and inclusion, Eric's natural lack of jealousy offers a refreshing lens through which to view love and connection. Join us as Eric dives into his journey of self-discovery within the kink world and how his upbringing shaped his open-hearted approach to relationships.

We also unpack my personal stories and reflections on non-monogamy, drawing from my father's Nigerian, polyamorous family and my own experiences navigating societal expectations. From breakups and reconciliations to the confusing social rules governing romantic interactions, this episode explores the complexities of love and boundaries. Listen as we discuss how cultural differences shape our understanding of relationships and the emotional landscapes they inhabit.

Finally, we tackle the broader dynamics of monogamous versus polyamorous relationships, addressing common reasons for infidelity and the societal norms surrounding sexual exclusivity. With candid discussions on communication, honesty, and overcoming ingrained monogamous tendencies, we highlight the diverse and flexible nature of non-monogamous relationships. Whether you're curious about polyamory or looking for new perspectives on love, this episode promises an engaging and thought-provoking conversation. Don't miss out on this compelling exploration of relationship dynamics!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, well, well, go ahead and open up your ears,
your mind and whatever else youneed.
You're listening to Talk Dirtyto Me.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello all you sexy beasts and welcome back to Talk
Dirty to Me, the podcast where,oh gosh, I guess it's three
friends with three differentperspectives talk dirty to one
another.
And today we have TosinAoufesso, the kink oracle.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Ahoy.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
We have Aaron the experimentalist.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Salutations.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
We have me, Casey, your neighborhood femdom, and
with us today.
We have a very exciting guestfor you, Eric Sanchez.
Eric say hello, Salutations.
We have me, Casey, yourneighborhood femdom, and with us
today.
We have a very exciting guestfor you, Eric Sanchez.
Eric say hello, Hello there.
So Eric is one of my oldestfriends and we went to lunch the
other day and had a fascinatingconversation.
I found it fascinating and Itold him that we had to do our
best to recreate it for thepodcast.

(01:02):
It's a conversation that fallsmore on the relationship side of
things and the kink side ofthings, but since Eric is you're
in the poly life, will youclassify yourself as poly?

Speaker 4 (01:12):
Yeah, poly, open, ethical, non-monogamy, any of
those probably apply.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Great, and do you have?
Would you classify yourself askinky?

Speaker 4 (01:20):
Certainly more than not, but I haven't found my kink
yet.
I'm still exploring wait, I'msorry.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
So you, you say you're kinky, but you don't know
what your kink is yet yeah, Ifeel like I can feel it.

Speaker 4 (01:32):
I can feel it coming in, I just don't know what it is
that's my specialty, I'll findit eric is a listener.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
He listens to the podcast.
So it'll happen.
Eventually you hear something.
It'll be like oh my god, that'smy kink, that's me.

Speaker 4 (01:45):
Finally can we do something promotional where we
say you too could, could somehowget on the podcast if you just
join the patreon and give enoughmoney?
Is this a tear we can give away?

Speaker 2 (01:57):
yeah god, how did we even get on?
Okay, this is just.
This is what I find fascinating.
I'm gonna try to submit it andwe're just going to have a
conversation about it.
I was talking with Eric abouthow I don't fucking know what we
were talking aboutrelationships, obviously but
what I learned is that Eric wasborn without jealousy no,

(02:20):
jealousy doesn't exist.
Both of his parents were no,jealousy Doesn't exist.
Both of his parents were youknow, they were.
The marriage was monogamous andgreat.
So that was the example thatwas set for you, correct?

Speaker 4 (02:31):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
But but somehow you were birthed into this world
without I don't even I don'teven know what to call it Like
in a polyamorous mindset likeyou existed for a long time, not
knowing why girlfriends wouldget upset at you for not being
jealous or possessive at all atall, and you and you didn't
understand why they were mad atyou.
And it wasn't until later youwere like got it Right, and then

(02:55):
it wasn't until recently thatyou felt this is the part that's
really great for me that youfelt something and you were like
you were.
And I'm to your wife and you'relike what is it?
Like I'm feeling this thing,what is it called when you kind
of feel this way and you'reworried about this thing?
And these are maybe thethoughts you're having.
And she was like jealousy andyou were like that's jealousy.

(03:17):
Like you experienced an emotionfor the first time as an adult,
like never experienced jealousybefore, because you're just so
like I don't even know what tocall it open hearted or whatever
.
And you know how they sayyou're born this way, like
you're born gay or born straight.
You're born whatever it is.
You're born as Like it made methink that the relationship

(03:38):
style you naturally are.
You're just born that way.
I mean, I think that might notbe totally true, because I think
there's a lot of examples setfor people in the world, but,
like the way you explained, itwas like you, just like it
didn't even occur to you to bejealous.

Speaker 4 (03:50):
Yeah.
So I would say that I I don'tknow if I'm jealous free cause I
have experienced it, but I'veexperienced it very, very
briefly, for very short amountsof time.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
You're like that.

Speaker 4 (04:00):
one time a year and a half ago I felt jealousy, so
basically, yeah, and they alwayshave those online tests to see,
hey, what are your kinks orwhat might you be into and if
you're a brat tamer sub, youknow whatever it is like, kind
of.
They kind of sort you into yoursex house at Hogwarts, all
those.
I'm like 98 or 99 percentilepoly, which is was high, right,

(04:23):
like you know, it's a commonenough sort of lifestyle, but
it's certainly not that high andI don't know for a fact that
it's innate, like it could justbe the way I was raised, which
is very.
I have siblings, I have a tonof cousins, always taught by the
generation ahead of us.
There's no favorites.
Everybody's equal.
My parents do this thing when achild has a birthday and that

(04:46):
child has siblings, they havebirthday present for the child
and they'll buy the siblingslittle presents so they have
something to open on the otherkid's birthday, because they I
just come from this culture ofeveryone should always be equal
and included.
So I think that definitelyinfluenced me.

(05:06):
But since I was very little, Ialways found jealousy and media
representations both terrifyingand alien.
I think that's the part that'smaybe the most striking.
When I was young, you wouldshow and some as part of the
plot line.
Someone would come in and getjealous and then there'd be a
violence.
Some, some man would shootanother man because he was in
bed with his wife, or in even incartoons, you know, you have

(05:29):
like these little love trianglesand instead of being a love
triangle, we're like, oh, thisis so great, let's go and be a
love triangle.
It's always you have to pick,you have to choose, like even in
little kids books, little genrebooks, you know, for fantasy
and sci-fi, where I read growingup, it's everywhere and it was
always entirely just mystifyingto me.
I did had no idea why peoplewould act this way and I really

(05:52):
had no idea why everyone seemedto be like yeah, then you, well,
you know they really love eachother because one of them is
willing to go kill somebody elsefor them with jealous rage.
I'm like, oh okay, good, goodlesson, good lesson to learn
yeah, so go on.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
Just did you grow up on a commune?

Speaker 4 (06:08):
no, no, I grew up catholic, I heard catholic and
the models for me, by the way,were entirely like there's one
man and one woman.
They get together very young,they have children very young
and they have sex with no oneelse.
And you know that.
Know, that was the model.
And big family.
And not everyone in my familyis still married to the first
person they were married to, butgrowing up those people just

(06:31):
weren't mentioned.
You know why some of thesecousins don't have a dad.
They did.
He's somewhere else.
What do you mean?
Stop asking questions, go eat.
You know what it is.
It wasn very.
It was the only.
It wasn't even the onlysolution, the only idea.
It's there.

Speaker 3 (06:48):
Any other potential was just curtailed does your
family know about your currentrelationship structure?

Speaker 4 (06:56):
no, it toyed with the idea of telling some and I
think a few kind of look, lookat me and be like something's
going on there.
But you know we don't ask a lotof personal questions each
other and that's okay.
My family, we are very lovingand we have a great dynamic.
We just don't necessarily pushon each other's private
boundaries.
And amongst friend groups likeI, have a lot of friends who

(07:19):
probably if they heard thispodcast and figure out who I am,
would be surprised.
But it's not because I'm tryingto be secretive, it's just my
model growing up.
My model for friendships andfamily and love is you just
don't talk about it.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
So, also like you, you were telling me about a
girlfriend that you had who,like you, really liked and were
into, and you'd been seeing herfor a while and she came to you
at some point and she was likeyou know, I think I want to go
see this other boy.
And in her mind she wasbreaking up with you because
that's what that meant, like ifI want to see somebody else.
Like this is big news, like.

(07:54):
And you were like, oh, my God,yeah, you should go do that.
That's super awesome.
I'm so excited for you.
Which left her completelybaffled, as would I would if I
was her.
I think I said if I would heardme, so pissed I'd be, like
you're not at all sad about,like what the fuck have we been
doing?
And she, of course, you know,when you respond that way, they

(08:14):
come, they come back becausethat's, um, that's what one does
, but that's just like superchill about it and being like,
oh, if you don't have thisexperience with this person, you
should.
I like support you go have thisexperience with this person.
Like I'm like what is the termfor that?
compersion yeah, if you enjoy it, compersion yeah, so if you
enjoy it, compersion, if youdon't jealousy if you don't,

(08:36):
then it's just I'm trying to.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
I don't want to word this biasly.
If you don't enjoy it, then itis being understanding.
If you enjoy it, it'sconversion it was conversion.

Speaker 4 (08:47):
So this story is from when I'm 17, 18 and, uh, dating
for a while.
She comes by, she invites meover to her house.
She's like I have terrible news, I have to break up with you.
I'm so into this other personand I knew her fairly well.
I'm like, well, you know, shethe first time that she has
dropped in, that she'sinterested in other guys, and
I'm like this will be great,she'll go and she'll have a good

(09:08):
time with him, kind of you knowshe'll come back around, we'll
have a good time.
And maybe then you know, thisother person was very different
than I was like maybe thenshe'll have some place to go do
these things that she likes todo.
And I'll my mind, without anyexamples, just kind of dreaming

(09:30):
up a little polycule idea, justas a no, nothing, 18 year old,
you know like oh cool, have agood time.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
And she's like what, why?
And flips the table, sets thehouse on fire, right, no?

Speaker 4 (09:37):
actually she was just very saddened by it.
Had a friend of ours interveneand come to me and be like I
don't mean it, she was justtesting you, can you just go
back?

Speaker 2 (09:45):
and but she's very she was just testing you and
then we did get back together.

Speaker 4 (09:50):
But that's not the only example, but let me know,
let me know that I was somehowdifferent.
I had been interested insomeone and they had just gotten
done dating a friend of mineand they were like I'm also
interested in you.
Uh, I can't, because I just Ijust dated your friend.
I was like I don't understand,I didn't under, I just
completely didn't come across mymind and I brought it up to

(10:13):
other friends, other malefriends, kind of casually like
yeah, would you ever, you know,date someone the day the friend
of yours?
And they were like, oh, codethis and dude, and like passing
them around, like all thesedifferent concepts?
No, of course not.
And then another example I wasin college and there was this
girl I had a crush on and she'scoming from another college to

(10:33):
come visit me and see a show Iwas in.
We're kind of, you know, shearrived, we, we kissed a little
bit hello, there was kind oflike a timid flirtation, and
then we went and I, she watchedmy show and afterwards she's
like who was that guy?
That tall guy, that really goodlooking guy, and she was
describing some of the cast.
Mate was like, oh, that's so,and so like he's amazing, he's

(10:54):
fun, everybody's really into him.
She's like do you think I'dhave a chance with him?
It's like, honestly, probably Ithink he could actually.
And so we chatted it up andthen she went and hooked up with
him and we talked the next dayand in my head, not only am I'm
like wow, good for her like heactually pulls, like it's really
hard to get him to go home withyou surprisingly, like he has a
lot of interest, like you didreally well.

(11:15):
I was kind of proud of her forable to like land the night.
And then I was also like, hey,you know, you got like five or
six hours before you leave you.
Like I was sort of like, well,now you've hooked up with that
guy and now we'll hook up tooand we'll have a good time and
that'll be it.
And she looked at me like I wascrazy, which I understand.
She just had a long night ofsex and I was right she was

(11:37):
probably tired.
But it was also like well, no,I've hooked up with a castmate.
I'm now off limits.
There's some sort of limits,some sort of boundaries that
come into place as soon as you,as soon as genitals touch over
here, genitals may not touchover here.
You know I study.
If you study physics, there'ssome sort of repulsion happening
there.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
You're describing one of my internal great
pre-mysteries.
One of them is this, which islike can someone explain to me
what happens when you have sexwith somebody else that affects
the rest of the world?
I'm trying, I've been trying tofigure it out for a long, long
time and I have no.
I still have no idea now, and Iunderstand how to act in all of

(12:22):
the situations where it occurs,because I'm I've been alive for
a while now but I still don'tknow like because I.
Everything you just describedis like so many things that have
happened to me as I was a kid.
Like up until Sarah Marie, Idid not see like a positive draw
to monogamy at all and I wasjust like in every example that

(12:42):
I've ever seen.
It is basically a compromiseand people are tolerating it
because they think it's the onlything that exists, and until
Sarah Marie, I hadn't had anexample that was like this is a
reason to pick this.
Okay, and again, everybody cando what they want.
I'm happy for you.
I'm here, I support you in yourwhole life.
But my dad's Nigerian, hisculture is Pali.

(13:03):
Like he has five moms, so likeI've grown up with in my culture
system that that's anacceptable way of having
families.
The example that I like to bringup to like try to discuss it
like monogamy just that idea hasmade and makes for an absurd
choice system is Buffy.
And makes for an absurd choicesystem is Buffy.

(13:23):
So if you're not a Buffy fan,there is a character who's a
werewolf who is dating someonewho loves him, even though he's
a werewolf who's a witch, andthey align on this being like
we're different and we'regrowing and we're changing who.
Then eventually he meetsanother werewolf who falls in
love with him and there'sobviously he's like I've never

(13:44):
met another werewolf who fallsin love with him and there's
obviously he's like I've nevermet another werewolf.
I'm obviously interested inseeing what type of connection
would grow with this, but theydo not offer me.
I just want to do werewolf shitwith this person which involves
animalistic sex kind of italludes to it.
But I love and want to buildlike a more nesting relationship

(14:06):
with you and I watched thisepisode both times that I've ran
through buffy and both timesI'm just like it makes no sense
for any of the charactersinvolved to be like that's a bad
idea.
How dare you do this to me andI was like like it felt like
such an odd thing for any ofthose characters to be like.

(14:28):
This is bad, how you have tomake a choice.
Quite literally, he wants tohang out with him when he's a
werewolf, which you can't hangout with him while he's a
werewolf because he'll kill you.
So why are you?
Okay, Okay.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Is that how?
So he couldn't go hang out withWerewolf Girl?

Speaker 1 (14:49):
He ends up like never talking to her again, or they
end up breaking up about it, himand Willow.
Yeah, I think that's when theyend up breaking up.
Because of that, when I wasjust like I didn't know, that's
how that storyline ended.
Yeah, I double check it,because I think my brain goes
angry at that point and thenRiley happens, and then you

(15:10):
don't remember anything elseCause you're mad.

Speaker 3 (15:12):
So I'm hearing this story.
I've never watched Buffy before, but I'm hearing about like
werewolves and I can't help butlook at Eric with his like bitch
inside burns and be likethere's a little bit of werewolf
in him.

Speaker 4 (15:27):
I think one of the things that has been so
rewarding a long term partner,my spouse, my nesting partner
for a very long time and part ofwhat's been rewarding is
conversations just like this.
Because she was also raisedvery monogamy, centered also in
texas not the same christianbackground, but similar ish.

(15:48):
Having these conversations veryhonestly is great.
When it's a, you already havethat trust bond because there's
a little voice in your head thatjust says say the thing you're
supposed to say.
Right, like, say the thing thatyou know.
You went and took vows offriendship, just keep to the
program.
But when you can break out ofthat, you have the most
interesting open conversations.
We were first starting datingand then we had we were long

(16:11):
distance.
We got put together again.
Then she went long distanceagain.
She had a threesome withanother couple and I remember
that phone call being like oh,I'm so nervous, I don't know if
I should do this.
I'm like well, first off, youdon't have to do, but if you do,
it's great, go have a good time.
Like, go be supportive.
And we only got there because wehad had earlier conversations
which were a lot more about yeah, but isn't that weird?

(16:32):
Isn't it like wrong to want tohave sex with more than one
person or like isn't it likegoing to automatically lead to
something just like magicallybad?
But it doesn't.
And I think when you don'tpresume jealousy and then you
actually go, when you go out andyou see how things feel, it's

(16:52):
really quick to see how whatactually is there.
Jealousy is definitely there,it can definitely show up, but
other feelings can too A lot ofjoy and shared instances and
fascination.
One of the most fun things Ilike to do with partners when
they first start to know eachother is just ask them about
their sex life.
Right, because at this point inmy life it's always open.

(17:14):
It's a lot of friends withbenefits or it's a lot of people
I know and really enjoy thecompany of, and we can just have
conversations about lots of sexthey had and what was like and
what they didn't like.
And when I had thatconversation with the first girl
I did in college, it was likethe second night.
We knew each other and shelooked at me and she was like I
don't know if I can be aroundyou.
It's just like hearing what youhave done in your life is

(17:40):
bizarre and alien.
But we did end up dating for afew months.
Uh, she came around to thinkingI might be a real person to
date.
Uh was definitely one of thoseeye-opening experiences and and
I and I hope I have more of them.
I think podcast has reallyhelped me come to a conclusion
that I need to talk to morepeople about their kinks and
weird shit uh, I love talkingabout weird shit and and and

(18:02):
also just like picking apartthings that people have coupled
together to mean things.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Exactly what you're saying, like there's a script
that everybody follows.
Because we're used to followingthat script, we think
inherently, being inside someoneor having someone inside of you
means a thing, and it's notthat it hasn't and it's not that
it can't.
It is this idea that itguarantee will.
You know, I've heard, I'veheard arguments that just like,

(18:28):
well, if your partner wants tohave sex with somebody else, it
means that they're not in lovewith you anymore, and I'm like
that's not what having sex withsomebody else means.
If you feel like there's apossibility that they're not
going to be in love with youanymore, that's its own problem.
That you should probably lookat.
People who are in monogamousrelationships and people cheat

(18:48):
inside of those relationships isusually one of two stories that
I hear.
It is either a opportunityoccurred that they did not want
to turn down sexually and theyjust did, and they did it, which
personally I think it shouldn'thave been a part of the
mechanism anyway, unless, unlessit's really specifically the

(19:09):
thing that you're like trying togo for it, you agree to it.
So that is a betrayal and youshouldn't do it, but I think
it's like I don't think it's agreat idea for that to be the
default, just considering howhuman biology works in general.
Or it is someone is unhappy intheir relationship and not
getting something that they needbecause they have to follow the

(19:31):
script and have to be there.
Usually, sex is the fastest,highest impact version of
getting some form of intimacythat you're not getting in your
relationship, which is theproblem you should have solved
inside of your relationship.
It's also a problem that couldhave been solved if you were not
monogamous Cause cause also alot of the time.
It's exactly what you'redescribing Like I like certain

(19:53):
things, you like certain things.
There are things that you likethat I don't like, that you
would like to do with somebodyelse.
I usually use the musicalexample.
Like I have love.
I have lots of friends in mylife that I really, really enjoy
hanging out with.
But I've been playing piano for25 years and I have a really
great experience playing withother musicians who are at my
level.
No one has a problem with mesaying that nobody cares that

(20:15):
I'm just like yeah, I love you,you're great, you aren't?
You haven't been singing yourwhole life and I want to do that
with this person who's beensinging their whole life and I
was like, and I worked the sameway.
I was like you don't want topeg me and I want to be pegged.
Can I go find a person whowants to beg me, like all of
those?

Speaker 4 (20:33):
things make sense to me 100 and, and that's usually
when I.
So when you come out to someoneas poly, first off they always
think you're trying to have sexwith them no, female, and it
just is like the presumption, uh.
But the second thing is alwayslike, well, how do you make it
work?
Like, how is that possible?
I could never do.
That is the most commonresponse and I always want to
say is you are doing it?

(20:53):
Do you?
Do you have you work with morethan one person?
Do you have more than onefriend?
Are you, are you on good termswith more than one parent?
Like you are naturally having akind of love or a kind of
affection, and you are andyou're totally cool with sharing
it.
But this other kind ofaffection, the sexual affection,
you're not cool with sharingand that's I'm cool A hundred
percent.

(21:14):
Monogamy can be your kink and Isupport your monogamy kink.
It's awesome, different foreverybody else.
Ask somebody if it's cheatingto go dance with somebody else,
like any for some couples, othercouples, not at all right, and
there's so many differentexamples of that.
On the other side, on thejealousy, capersian side, how
many times have you been atanother situation, a friend
group or something like that,and you feel jealousy because

(21:35):
some friend is showing moreaffection to somebody else, or
they get to do a thing you don'tget to do, they don't invite
you to a trip for whateverreason, etc.
How do you deal with thatjealousy?
Do you blow up thosefriendships and walk away?
Generally, no, usually you talkand cry about it, you figure
things out, you advice otherpeople, you have some sort of

(21:55):
reparative action.
And yet for sex, that justseems so scary and terrifying
for so many people and I don'twant to push anybody beyond
their boundaries, but it justmakes so much more sense, I
think, to think of sex as yetanother area where you could
have both experienced jealousyand also repair it, and it not
be an ending violation.

(22:17):
That's a really weird analogy.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
An ending violation.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, no, no deal breaker.
Yeah, I like I agree with thisand it is like something I want
to embody, but I like, for somereason, I have like a monogamy
bone in my body and I'm and Ilike don't necessarily want it
there, because I recognize theproblems with monogamy and I
don't know how to retrain myself.
I because I like all thing,this thing that all three of you
do so well.
I mean I can do it moderatelywell but there's somewhere in my

(22:49):
heart that I'm like I'll findmy single person one day and
it'll be great, and I'm like Ialready know that doesn't work.
I've had experience that provesthat might not be the answer.
And I've wondered this for solong, like why is the act of sex
?
What defines you as being in aspecial relationship with

(23:11):
somebody?

Speaker 1 (23:11):
This is mystery number two.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Like how do I have a relationship and extract that
from the fact, from being chosen, right, and I am like thinking
about what you were talking,eric.
I'm thinking about it.
I'm like, what, why?
Why is that a game endingviolation?
And I'm wondering if it's likeI'm thinking of like being with
somebody that I like and havingsex with them and then snuggling

(23:35):
afterwards, right, and there'slike all this hormone release
that they causes a special bondwith that person that makes you
want to see them again and againand causes in most cases
actually not in most cases, butin many cases like the building
of some sort of intimaterelationship.
And so when I'm like imaginingI'm with my person and I really

(23:58):
love or like them, and I'm like,yeah, amazing, go have sex with
that hot blonde, get it.
What is the likelihood thatthey're going to have sex with
that hot blonde and just be likethat was great and have sex
with that hot blondeoccasionally, or have sex with
that hot blonde regularly andhave all the like feel good
chemicals released and then alsohave like build like some sort
of intimate relationship withthem that they may value more or

(24:20):
something.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Right.
So, casey, the one thing I wantto like point out is that
non-monogamy doesn't necessarilymean poly.
Like there are a menagerie ofinteractions, like when I first
got into non-monogamy.
Like I thought that it was verypolarizing that you were either

(24:42):
polyamorous with these othervery deep relationships or you
were in the lifestyle aka aswinger, where you just fucked
indiscriminately.
And the more people I've gottento know and meet and I'm hoping
we can get some of them on herewhat I've learned is that a lot
of couples and a lot ofrelationships thrive somewhere

(25:04):
inside of a spectrum and it'snot necessarily like one or the
other.
It's about exploring with yourpartner what type of dynamic
works between you and them, andthat can be different for every
partner you end up with can bedifferent for every partner you

(25:25):
end up with.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah, and and to your point, like, I also think
there's a large differencebetween the way that you know,
three men are able to engage inpoly, in monogamy, than a woman,
because you also have a fuckboy problem, which is you are.
You are coming, you are comingacross a larger pool of people
who are like yeah, I'mintelligently and consensually

(25:49):
and with your best interest atheart and caring about your
emotions, want to enter into anon-monogamous relationship with
you that actually mean I'mcheating on my wife tonight,
which is a really good point,which is why I feel a little
dubious.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Uh, why?
Maybe?
I feel like, how does thathappen?
Because I guess I haven't hadthe experience of somebody being
like I I would.
I would like to beintentionally considerate
towards you and consider youthroughout my life, even when
I'm with other people, not in aselfish way, but you know but
like if I'm seeing multiplepeople, like I'm going to, I'm
going to be like, how can Imanage this so that, like I take

(26:29):
care of everybody, just fuckingbeing considerate?
I don't know why I'm beingworried about it.
I feel like I do have a problemBoth Eric and Aaron laughed at
that because they know that Ihave a fuck boy problem that I'm
trying to break out of.
But like, I think that's areally good point and in my case
, when I am dealing with guysand I have examples at me over

(26:52):
and over of men being unwillingor incapable of being
considerate and just kind ofbeing toxic, hurtful douchebags
about it.
But like, why does that comedown on sex?
Like, why is the sex the victimof that interaction?
Am I being clear?
I've never had to describe thisbefore and it's hard.

Speaker 4 (27:13):
Go ahead and put a word out for all those people in
my family and friend groups,because I think some of what
makes people monogamous isbecause of the thing you just
brought up, casey.
It's a difficult skill andthere's a lot of security
involved in sex.
There's a lot of pressure,there's a lot of predatory
behavior, mostly from mentowards women, but just in

(27:35):
general it's not the safesthobby.
It's a lot safer than it'sportrayed as Don't get me wrong
but there's a lot of emotionaldamage that can happen and I
think instinctively we know that.
We know that from the firsttime we have a crush on someone
who breaks our heart when we'reyoung, right.
Or you know that from the firsttime we are told we're not
attractive or whatever.
It is right.
We have these injuries and Ithink trivialize that.

(27:58):
Those injuries and traumas,maybe even from growing up,
stick with us and it does notmake it easy.
A lot of things you can reallylove doing that you're not good
at yet and it takes a lot oftime to get good at it, but in
the meantime you're in the worldaround other people and also
cause damage unintentionally.

(28:24):
The first two or five or sixyears that I see Parker and I
were, were open, I would takeback all of those actions that
not the people involved, butlike man, so many mistakes, so
many problems I should have seencoming, um, but didn't.
So many things where I thoughtI actually knew what I wanted to
do.
I knew what I wanted to say butI had.
It was the first time I'd everhave a conversation about oh,
we'd like to be your friend,have sex with you, have like

(28:45):
some intimate romantic moments,see you routinely, but but not
really go anything beyond that.
I don't have time for anythingabout.
I want those four things.
Can we talk about those fourthings without work with what
you are, and could you tell mewhat you're interested in?
If they don't align?
Can we both agree that we justreally like each other and say
let's see if we can sync upagain later, rather than pushing

(29:06):
forward because we're soattracted to each other, like
all this mature behavior thatreally helps non-monogamy
function in an ethical way.
You don't get until you actuallystart trying it.
For most people you can readall the books you want, but
until you have to look at othertwo and be in the eye and try to
explain the unique puzzle pieceof sex that's in your heart

(29:26):
that you would like to try torub up against their puzzle
piece in their heart.
You just don't know howdifficult it can be.
You get I mean, at least for methe first time it works out
well or the first few times youhave a really great connection,
or the first few times you havea really great connection.
It's so powerful that youforget about the very first time
you kiss somebody and you'relike, you know, in, whatever

(29:46):
your age, and you're like, oh, Ikissed somebody.
It's crazy, I'm going to actweird and say bullshit and go
run and dance.
And you're now in like yourtwenties or thirties, when
you're going to tryesoteraphobia or whatever, and
you have your first greatexperience.
You're like, okay, well, I'm anadult, I'll handle this well,

(30:07):
but you don't.
You go right around screaming,oh my god, I had a good time.
And you act like the fool or atleast I did.
And I think that we're nottrained because for ethical
non-monogamy, and we're nottrained for either successes or
the failures, and I think eventhat part really makes it scary
and can make it dangerous.
I think for some people I wasdating in, we just start the
monogamous escalator very earlyand give people as much practice

(30:29):
as they can with as manyexamples as they can.
So I think in some casesmonogamy maybe has a higher
success rate.
Well, that's a weird way to sayit.
You know higher like people whoare more satisfied, younger
because they're just, they'relike're like toasting.
They've had that many years ofmusical experience right and so
they're a little bit better atit and you.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
You bring up a great point like what one of my life
philosophies is built on apuzzle piece analogy.
One of the main sources ofcontention that happens between
human beings is you pick up onepuzzle piece of a person and
everybody most people pick up anarbitrary number of other ones
that come with it.

(31:10):
I'm made of a thousand puzzlepieces.
I'm, I'm black, I play piano, Ilike being pegged, like.
All of those are their ownindividual puzzle pieces and
when some people look at one,they assume the rest of my, the
rest of the board.
When we were talking about likenon-monogamy and like having
those conversations, we all havea different arbitrary pile of

(31:31):
puzzle pieces that come withhaving sex, going on a date one
time, about how much time you'resupposed to spend with someone.
Here's one of my largestmistakes that I've ever made as
far as like poly monogamy everwent.
I had a partner who hadexpressed that they would like
to have more quality time andI'm going to say this I know

(31:53):
it's bad and I shouldn't havesaid it.
It made complete sense to mebecause this was also the time
where I was gigging a lot and Iwas like playing improv shows
and I was doing lots of thingsthat I lived and died by my
Google calendar and I was like,sure, I'll share my Google
calendar with you.
You put in any time blocks thatare free that you want to hang
out with with me and I'll behappy to do it, which now I

(32:15):
understand that someone elsewill hear that and be like I'm
not important enough for you togo make time for me and I'm like
that is me making time for you.
Quite literally here's all ofmy time.
You fill it wherever you wantto go at.
People don't have free accessto the white spaces on my
calendar.
I'm sleeping at that time.
But I understand that when thepuzzle pieces that came with

(32:36):
because I just saw the onepuzzle piece of I want to spend
more time with you and I'm justlike, cool, here's how I
schedule my time but they reallywere saying like I don't feel
like you're spending enough timewith me, I don't feel important
to you, I don't feel secure inthis relationship, I don't feel
all these other things, and youhave to learn, as you have these
conversations, what puzzlepieces might be attached to the
thing that someone's bringing up, and learn how to search for

(32:59):
those and so, like now, theconversation I have with people
is like I'm in an essayrelationship, I have multiple
kids and I don't have tons andtons of time.
If it's very important to youto be seen on a larger amount of
time, this is probably won'treally work out.
If we progress to this certainamount of time, I can usually
dedicate a night a week to youor a night every other week to
you.
If that is a feasible andreasonable amount of time that's
not going to upset you, then wecan go ahead and do that and at

(33:21):
any time you can let me knowthat this is no long enough time
and it's troublesome to you andI will do my best to try to
find some more.
But just know that, like I'mworking with a limited amount of
time and, and again, thatspeech took years to get good
and so and it looks like it'smade mistakes and it hasn't been
great.
And like I just recently Imessed it up like a year ago

(33:43):
with someone I was like Ithought I was clear, but I was
not, but and something,something else that she said
Casey, I don't think sex is thelinchpin, I think trust is the
linchpin, because I think if youhad the kind of confidence you
have in the three of us and ourability to communicate, like
what we want, what we need, whatour other relationships are,

(34:06):
and that person became and youwere like sexually interested in
them and that person was justlike I'm interested in having
sex with the other person andyou had built enough trust with
them and trust that like they'renot a fuck boy and they know
how to communicate this.
I think the part of your brainthat would trigger would be more
like yeah, I have stuff to dotoo, you can go do that while I

(34:26):
go do this.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
I need a night.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yeah, and so I think it's a trusting.
I think usually what happens inthose conversations or that I
hear with people who make the Idon't know how to make this work
conversation and all of that isusually that like, well, you
don't trust the people who havepresented this opportunity to
you more so than you hate theidea.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, I think you're right.
Once I said it, I startedthinking about it and I was.
I was thinking back on somemoments in my life that led to
like somebody, or not led to,but like a situation where
somebody was like ended upsleeping with somebody else or
talking about it.
And it was never from like aplace of trust or honesty or
kind intention.

(35:08):
It was like from a place of andfuck boys, if I may generalize
and I may be wrong but are oftentriggered by intimacy.
Because that's what, that'swhat like we call fuck boys.
Fuck boys because there's a,there's a lot of manipulation in
it.
So at the end it like ends uplike I don't know if it's
intentional or unintentional,but it ends up being very toxic
and hurtful.

(35:28):
But they get triggered byintimacy and then like recoil
and retract and for the otherside of things, this doesn't
make any sense.
You don't know why.
It's just very hurtful.
But I was like if, if, if oneof those gentlemen could have
been more introspective andintelligent, emotionally
intelligent and andunderstanding about themselves
enough to be like hey, I gettriggered through intimacy and

(35:48):
then I put a lot of distance andthings and it makes me want to
go have sex with other people.
If, like somebody, had thewherewithal to say that I'd be
like great, go do that, likethat's the wrong motivation.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
Like honestly, that's the wrong motivation to go fuck
around.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
It's the wrong motivation to go fuck somebody
else.
But if you could be honestabout that with me.
It's different than just beinglike silent and distant and me
feeling gaslit about what, whatjust happened between us, or if
they could just be like you know, like literally anything other
than toxic behaviors.
Also, I think that and this maybe like still like the learned

(36:23):
monogamy bug in my heart, but Iwas thinking about it and I was
like if somebody came to me andwas like I really like you, I
date people, but I really likeyou.
I don't want to hang out withyou.
I also hang out with otherpeople.
That's different than some likethan this, than the silent the
conversations never had, wherepeople usually show up and
they're like I like you, let'shang out, let's get dinner,
let's have sex a lot.

(36:44):
I want to have sex with otherpeople, right, that like feels
super different.
And then it's like oh, I'm notgood enough anymore.
You want to go have, you wantto have this whole thing that
you just did with me withsomebody else.
It's like they've, it's likeit's like the relationship you
have with them caused them towant to go have sex with other
people because something wasincomplete about what you were
doing with them, instead of thembeing like which, like I'm,

(37:05):
which might be true in somecases.
Um, it also might be true thatsomebody's an asshole or
whatever, but it.
But, if you know, if theconversation wasn't
mid-relationship.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
Yeah, it should be front-loaded.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
It should be front-loaded.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
Somebody has named this.
Hold on, I want to get it rightbecause it's funny.
Oh, the post-not-poly surprisewhen?

Speaker 2 (37:26):
it's like yeah.
The post-not-poly surprise.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
Where it's like in no point up until us having sex.
Did you bring up that you arean active, non-monogamous,
building relationships withother people right?

Speaker 2 (37:41):
You never talked about being ethically
non-monogamous.
Now something's happened andyou're just like hey, I want to
keep seeing you, but I'm alsogoing to fuck everybody else.
Which is not ethicallynon-monogamous, it's just you
not knowing how to communicateor handle your situation.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
Exactly.
Which is manipulative.
Like a fuck boy is someone who,by any means necessary, will,
will, manipulate, lie, not bringabout the correct information
so they can complete the act ofhaving sex with another person.
Now listen, the the thing thatme and fuck boys have in common
is I like having sex with peopleand I can have sex with a
person and that be the wholething that we do.

(38:15):
I do it all the time.
I've sucked a thousand dicks inmy life.
I don't know who they are mostof the time and but none of
those.
I did not walk into any of thosesituations that I've had with
people to the best of my ability.
Them thinking like we're goingto be in a relationship, like
fuck boys are.
Like we'll read the script ofmonogamy and read the script of

(38:35):
first dates, which you have noexcuse for not knowing what,
what is going to be read.
As you know, we're going steadyand building that specific type
of security, trust that makespeople who have monogamy bones
trust to have sex with you.
Like if you're doing thatdishonestly, you're a fuckboy,
even intentionally orunintention.
You like if you're doing thatdishonestly, you're a fuck boy,

(38:57):
even intentionally orunintentionally.
Like if you're just penis,branding your way through and
just like weaving, like justdoing whatever you think is the
right thing to do to get there,without describing that like
what your intentions are, thatis, that's being a fuck boy.
And yeah, and a lot of peopleexperience that, and so which

(39:18):
makes it makes sense to me whypeople are like I understand
with being like I have sex witha lot of people.
I'm going to keep having sexwith a lot of people.
I tell all of them I'm havingsex and you know, but I'm not
like gonna call them right nowthat me and you are gonna have
sex.
And it's specifically mysituation, which is a don't ask,
don't tell for my nestingpartner, which is like and also,
don't broadcast that we'rehaving sex so that my, the

(39:40):
parent of my child, finds out,because it's better for their
mental health.
They don't, I promise.
I promise that's a writtenagreement in our relationship.
Like I understand that thatsounds that is the same script
as fuckboyery, except forsomeone said to me recently
actually it was reallycomforting.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
I was like no fuckboy wouldn't have said any of that
ever just the fact that you saidany of it is more comforting in
in fuckboyery there's like, inthe beginning there's an air,
there's an energy of monogamygiven big time, and then it's
like and then they, that's where, like the toxic inconsistency
and gaslighting comes in.
Because then they're like well,we know, you know, I just had

(40:16):
sex with her, whatever.
And you're like where the fuckdid that come from?

Speaker 4 (40:19):
because yesterday you were fucking laser focused
anyways I just want to point outthat part of the joy of not
being monogamous and I'm not,you know, I'm not down to
monogamy is that once you're offthe script it really anything
could go.
I mean you could really havealmost any shape of relationship
at all.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Like everything a fuckboy does, it's doesn't
excite if they just described itto you and got consent and just
gamed it out and talked itwould be fine and care and like
I totally agree with that, pluscaring how they affect other
people, because they can likesay what they want to do and
then go do it.
But I think that anothercomponent is, like like I at

(40:58):
this point require somebody tohave thoughtful consideration
and be like I'm gonna go dothese things and like sometimes
something rubs me the wrong way.
Then have a conversation likeyeah, just like be
self-righteous, to be like thisis my life and I'm gonna do
these things.
Like sometimes you like have tocommunicate and be willing,
like to like be with anotherperson, and does that make sense
?

Speaker 1 (41:17):
oh, totally yeah, there's, there's opportunities.
I decline because it would harmmy greater polycule, even if
it's something that I wouldenjoy.

Speaker 4 (41:25):
Right, it's like, even if I, even if I feel like
it shouldn't harm my greaterpolycule, it will, so I don't I
want to point out in all thisthat it's not just communication
at the beginning, though that'sreally preferred, there's a lot
you should front load, right.
Uh, it's also continuouscommunication.
My uh park and I again, we'vebeen together for a very long
time and besides kind of likesome fun on the outside here and

(41:47):
there, she has for a very longtime felt much more on the
monogamy side, much more.
I'm a monogamish kind of personand Eric's over here and he's
the kind of more poly person.
Look at him, go, he's like aLabrador.
He just loves meeting peopleand catching balls and or
whatever.
But you know, like there is andmore recently she started

(42:10):
seeing someone in the last fewmonths and it's really changed
her perspective, I think, intothis.
She is much more genuinely polybecause she has this other
relationship that's completelyoutside me in a way that hasn't
existed before in our earlierhistory and that brings a lot of
love and joy into her life andreally and is a woman, not a man

(42:31):
, and like has a lot of otherthings parts of it, and that
communication has been reallyeye-opening.
It's also, as you alluded to atthe top of this story, the first
time I experienced jealousy, soI was super aware of it and
felt it deep in my heart.
I saw my monog, quote-unquotemonogamous wife opened up by

(42:51):
another person who was not me,by a person who didn't share my
gender, by a person who could doand enjoy things with her, who
shared some of her neuralatypicalness, who had all these
things that they connect overthat I couldn't.
And for one evening, whilethey're out at a hotel having
sex, I'm sitting at home beinglike why does everything feel
like someone's going to attackme?

(43:11):
Why is this the worst?
What is going on?
I, I love, I really, reallyenjoy them.
The meta the other person she'shaving sex with.
I think she's a good friend ofmine.
Why do I suddenly havedaydreams about her coming back
and like kicking me out of myhouse or like what's going on?
And then you know it dissipatedfour hours later and I that was
his experience with jealousyeverybody.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, that was in four hours.

Speaker 4 (43:33):
It was super intense.
And then it was gone and then Iwas.
They came back the next day andwas like, oh guys, like when
you were gone, I just had thisfeeling that I, you know, I was
like I felt jealousy.
This is how I felt.
I was like I got hurt by thefact that maybe, uh, she would
come in and and take me from youand it just.
I turned to my, my partner, my,my, my, my wife and was like I

(43:56):
know you have felt this way inthe past, not for four hours,
but for weeks and months, andfor the first time I felt
Genuine Sensory Empathy Like Ican imagine Having the feeling I
had For a night, months andmonths, and I was like my god,

(44:17):
I'd be exhausted, on the floor,weeping.
I would be just completelywasted if I felt that way for as
long as you did, and that wasvery healing to the two of us.
But also, yeah, it's anyonewho's who's felt the jealousy, I
think, can probably tellstories of the pain.
It is the actual physical painit is.
So I have now this sense thatit's not something I need to be.
I earlier, I think in my life, Iwas disdainful of jealousy.

(44:38):
I was like that's the weirdculty thing that we're all into
and we all just punish peoplefor and stuff.
But now I'm like no, it's, itis an emotion.
It should be respected.
It maybe shouldn't beencouraged and supported and
assumed to be the default, orand we should give people tools
to work with it.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah, and it's also a composite emotion, which is is
what I usually see fuck peopleup, I I think of.
I think of emotions like musicalscores, right, and so there's
three tracks to jealousy, whichis desire and yearning and fear
and insecurity and lowself-esteem, and you need to
deal with those individually.
And so cause usually one ofthem is louder than the other

(45:18):
and that's how people react,like if desire is too loud,
that's where you really try tocontrol the person and like I
want to get this thing thatyou're doing, that I want, like
you.
Jealousy usually comes upbecause you see something
happening that you want andyou're like I want it to happen
for me, with me.
If insecurity is really loud,that's where you're like it
should have been me, I shouldhave been the one to make this

(45:39):
happen, this thing that occurred.
If it's fear, it's I'm going tolose everything because of this
, and if also they're allhappening at the same time, then
that's where jealousy comesfrom.
All three of those are notsomething someone did to you,
and that's usually like the.
The thing that I would wishpeople had better ways of

(46:00):
talking about jealousy with waslike cause.
I have felt that compositeemotion of, of jealousy of
things, but I'm I tried veryhard to be like what's happening
is I want to be doing thisthing and the reason that I'm
not is I am incapable, right.
So like.
I think one of the first timeswas I love eating pussy.

(46:22):
I pride myself on being very,very good at it.
I had a partner who I couldn'tmake climax.
Her meta could do it at the topof, but with ease, easily all
the time, and it was one of thefirst times that I was just like
why can't I do it?
This is my call, and I feltmyself like inclined to do

(46:45):
things to try to like that wouldmake them uncomfortable, like
can I watch so I can getpointers on how to do it?
But that was like that would bethat's uncomfortable for their
relationship and like.
But it all stemmed from thatpart of like.
I need to become okay with that.
Like I'm just currentlyincompetent with this person for
this activity.
That's the case.
That is fine.
I don't get mad at flute playerswho can play flute and I can't,

(47:06):
and it's fine.
And flute players need to bethere.
You can't have bands withoutthem.
I'm glad they exist and likeI'm dealing with a me thing and
I just I like, is theresomething I need to request to
like deal with it Like it's?
It is also fine for me to belike I'm totally down that
you're doing it.
Can you?
Can we not specifically wordconversations about this this
way?
Maybe that's what I need, butit's not because once I get past

(47:29):
the, I'm okay with fluteplayers existing.
Then I like hearing about it,then it's then the.
Then the compersion part of mecomes in.
I was like, if I can't make youcome, ridiculously, I want to
hear all the stories.
Tell me, tell me.

Speaker 4 (47:42):
On the other side of jealousy, when you can accept it
, process it and go through it,I think there is just all this
amazing bounty of relationship.
Other partner, who is a goodfriend of mine, who I love to
death.
She had other partners.
She has expressed to me thatshe's mostly monogamous, which
means at some point in thefuture I'm not going to be

(48:02):
around, right.
And it actually being able toaccept that it not only allows
me to enjoy the time I have withher now, but it also be like,
can be like oh well, what aboutthat guy?
I mean, that seems pretty cool,like how is that?
Like to be able to besupportive in a way that I think
is very difficult when you'retrying to be possessive, to be

(48:22):
able to in the moment and enjoythings because you're not
worrying about who might takethem from you or how they might
be taken from you or who shouldhave them instead of you or vice
versa.
And I want to accept jealousy.
I don't want to say it's bad,but it is something I think that
is for personal growth.
That might be the best way tothink of it.
It's, like you know, in itselfit's not that great, but if it
can cause you to think aboutthings, to face things and

(48:44):
change things.
I think it leads to just muchdeepening of relationships and
some really wonderful moments.
Really wonderful moments, somemoments of looking at someone
that you love, describesomething that you were not
involved in but it brought themso much joy and love that just
by looking at their face andjust by seeing them, you feel

(49:06):
some echoes of those feelings.
Like you get sex echoes right,you get joy echoes from your
partners and man that is that isa boondrop man.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
I hope I can feel that one day when jealousy comes
up in my conversations now,like I think of it like I'm a
bank robber and the gold isbehind the bank vault of the
door of jealousy.
Like any time I encounterjealousy, I'm about to find out
something you really want.
Any time I encounter jealousy,I'm about to find out something
you really want.
I'm about to find out like itis.

(49:42):
It always occurs with like Ididn't know that this thing
would make you happy if we didit together.
I didn't know that, like, youdesired this.
If we, if we get past this bankvault door of jealousy, there's
so much gold inside, so I'm I'mas long as they're not being
toxic about it or trying to likeforce me to be different when
jealousy arises in myconversation.
It is an exciting time we'reabout to go to.

(50:03):
We're about to reach, like, apile of money in our
relationship.
That's what's going to happennext if we're willing to talk
about it intelligently.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yeah, and in that same vein, I've been over here
like dissecting jealousy and thethings I feel when somebody has
had sex with or wants to havesex with somebody else, and I'm
like it really has nothing to dowith sex, it's just that action
triggers insecurity andunworthiness in me.
It has nothing to do with theother person or that person

(50:33):
having sex with somebody else.
It has nothing to do with theother person or that person
having sex with somebody else.
It's about what it triggers inme and then how I react towards
that, which just means it's morework for me to do on my end.
Cool, cool, cool, cool.
But I think that's also reallycommon for people and it's funny
to me, or strange, that likesex so consistently triggers
insecurity in people.
Because really what I want tobe like is, you know, in a

(50:54):
relationship with somebody andthey're like I'm going to go
have sex with that beautifulperson over there and maybe like
sweet, have a good time, andjust like walk away and know
you're still fucking awesome andthat they'll want to come back,
or that they will come back orthey'll not come back, but this
will be there.
That would be nice.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
That would be a nice outlook to have.
That those, those people are outthere.
And again, I want to be cleartoo that, like the thing that

(51:27):
you're worried about happens alot because people don't know
how to talk about how they feelor what they want.
And you know, I think betweenthe three of us, like we're,
we've practiced doing this.
But I know way more especiallymen who are pretending to have
ethnognomy conversations, whoare really just like I just want
to I hate this term, but it isaccurate are really just hit it

(51:47):
and quit it.
People and and I was like andyou can be that A large chunk of
my sex life is we're going tohave sex one time and I'm
probably never going to talk toyou again.
But all of those people areaware of this situation and if
they don't want to do that, Idon't have sex because we I know
that that's not what they wantto do.

(52:07):
A lot of people are maskingthat like this is the
transactional sex I would liketo have and promising more or
not discussing more or try togaslight somebody when they call
them out on, you should havesaid that's what you were
looking for, so I could havesaid no.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
I want to jump in here with just as it's been
brought up.
I am currently not polyamorous.
I have practiced poly before,although my partner and I do
practice non-monogamy.
We just play together.
And that just came from a placeof realizing that, like, hey,
we're at a place right now wherewe want to do fun stuff

(52:45):
together with other people.
We both recognize that thatcould and probably will evolve
to some place in the futurewhere, hey, like, let's go out
and do some dating separately,do some dating separately.
And just to kind of bring itback to the fact that
non-monogamy doesn't necessarilymean that you are forming

(53:08):
romantic connections with otherindividuals, and I think that's
like the key component of poly.
Depending on the relationshipyou're in and where it's at,
like, it is very possible tohave a fun, kinky, sexy,
non-monogamous relationship withsomeone else, and poly can be

(53:30):
part of the equation or itdoesn't necessarily need to be.
You know, as Casey, I kind ofhear you speaking to your kind
of some of the concerns there.
You're saying that they're not,you know they're not around the
sex, but they might very wellbe around having a partner
forming deep romantic feelingsand relationship with someone

(53:50):
else.
And so, to go back to what Iwould say.
You kind of beat an old drumlike there's just an entire
spectrum of non-monogamy drum.
There's just an entire spectrumof non-monogamy and while Tosin
and Eric have found a veryhealthy relationships and just
sexual in a way, to explore in apolyamorous way, where they are

(54:12):
practicing non-monogamy and areforming romantic connections
with other individuals, thatisn't a necessary component of
non-monogamy.
It's just one thing that'savailable on the buffet.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
Yeah, it's a very good point and it makes me want
to circle back to a thing I saidabout partners being like I
think we should see other people, and how oftentimes when
something's said like that,there's no thought about it
being ethically non-monogamous.
It's a phrase that's used todrive distance into a current
relationship and, you know,because maybe people are like
too scared or too much of anasshole to just break up or that

(54:48):
it's like the easiest thing todo, and it's used as like a
buffer or a distance maker, asopposed to being something in a
relationship that can besomething that you want to do
with your partner.
If I think we should see otherpeople.
That quote unquote isoftentimes what somebody how it
feels is oftentimes whatsomebody says when they want to

(55:09):
sleep with other people, asopposed to it being something
that you know, like I said, thatthey want to do together or
want to like use to grow therelationship, or they like
genuinely love the person andwant to keep them, but also can
acknowledge that not everybodycan't be everything to every
other person.
Right?

Speaker 3 (55:28):
Now, if someone says they want to see other people,
you need to take the hint, Casey, they're breaking up with you.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
No, I legit had a boyfriend one time who like, who
was like I don't want to breakup but we should sleep with
other people, and I was likenurturing or growth, or like I

(56:00):
want to do this with you.
It was, it was you.
I could tell by the way it wasdelivered to me and how I felt.
It was.
Like it was given from a likeinserting distance and you know
it didn't fly.
So next time you want to saythat to somebody audience, like,
think about your reasons andwhy you want to do it.
And if you really want to keepthe relationship, like, how can
you say it in a way that letsyour partner know that you want
to do it with them, dating otherpeople together or separate,
like with them to sustain arelationship.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
I would like us to explore some form of
non-monogamy.
That's how you bring it up.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
And if you want to say it because you want space
from the person, then don't sayyou should see other people.
You want to see with otherpeople.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Just say I want space or we shouldn't see each other
anymore, yeah, and if you'rewhat Aaron is describing, if
you're in a committedrelationship that does not have
new relationship energy anymoreand you're wanting to infuse
that break up type of situationjust because it's it's a bad rap

(56:50):
, it's, it's a I find it hard tobelieve that, like you as a
whole person, if you had beennon monogamous the whole time
and you settled for non going tobe with this person and it's

(57:12):
coming to the point where, like,that part of your life needs to
grow, then, yes, theconversations would be like.
I've always felt this way.
I think, like I would like toexplore that part of my system.
If you have required, if youhave sexual needs and
requirements that your partnercan't satisfy like you know
you're you're bisexual orpansexual.
Like you know, I like suckingpenises.
My current live-in partnerdoesn't have one.

(57:34):
Yeah, I gotta go, let me.
How do we work this out?
Like those type of conversationsmake sense, but if, like you're
, you just want to have somebodyelse to infuse new relationship
energy because you feel likeyour relationship has lost its
luster, please also put theamount of work that you're going
to have to put in to go findnew people into spicing up your

(57:54):
own relationship, because that'susually a good call, dude.
That usually means that you'vejust gotten into a rut, like do
weird shit to each other, okay,it doesn't have to be sexual.
Like go skydiving, go run aboat, go do an escape room, go
get lost in the woods and try tofind each other.
Like do something.
Like like take, put, put thesame amount of work that you're
putting to find yourself newrelationship, energy to give, to

(58:16):
infuse your currentrelationship with energy as well
I think you've got a new signoff uh, from during the meeting,
it's talking weird shit to eachother, and then that's yes

Speaker 2 (58:27):
go for it that's a really really good, really good
point, like, like, have youactually put a lot like that
energy towards the person you'recurrently with?

Speaker 1 (58:36):
and if you don't want to, if the, if the answer in
your head is like I don't wantto put in that work, break up
with that person, please.
That means you're done, andbeing done is fine, everyone
being done.
And staying in a relationshipfor nine more months is where
all the really really bad shithappens.
So if you realize that withyour whole ass, just say all the

(58:57):
things.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
I'm going to also throw in there that that is the
point where couples counselingisn't going to help you.
Couples counseling is to solvediscrete problems.
If you are not willing to putin the work, just recognize it,
honor the journey you had set itdown, move on like we should be
recording uh is for fuck boysand how they should become fuck

(59:18):
men.

Speaker 4 (59:19):
We should have psas for jealousy.
Oh, this is this is my thoughtactually.
So when you uh, when you're inthe 40 plus generation and you
have a will have you, you have,like a do not persist states or
other sort of like living willstuff they always like you
should start thinking aboutthese things.
I think if you're in anon-monogamous, ethical,
non-monogamous situation, youshould maybe have a strategy

(59:43):
that you are open and conversingwith your partners, not in like
hey, what happens in six weekswhen this, this timer goes off,
but more like hey, if youeventually want to break up with
me, I think the things thatwill make me feel good about it.
Or if you tell me in person andblah, blah, blah, blah and like
have a list.
If you have that kind of exitstrategy, it's not gonna make it
hurt me less and you're notgonna make any fewer mistakes,

(01:00:05):
but you might do things moreethically.
You might make ethical mistakes.
You might feel moral and secureabout the relationship when
it's done if you put the time inthe head of it yes,
relationship exit strategies areso smart.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
They're so smart.
At least, at the very least,make a communication mechanism.
Like, at least know thosepreferences.
Like I know I'm weird, I preferto be broken up by text.
Okay, I'm a busy guy, I don'tlike.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
You're like, I don't want to make time to have dinner
, like to get it together withyou.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
If all we're gonna do is break up, just tell me.
Just take a dick out of mymouth.
Just take a dick out of mymouth and we can just move.
Just block my number, I'll getthe picture.
I was like I drove 24 minutes,like I was like I don't like if
you're like it's fine, like thatand that's just me, like I, my
main thing, my breakup likecondition is like please, if
you're going to break up with me, do do not make the delivery of
that situation be a largeamount of my time, because I
think of it.
I think of the same way asbeing like going into work for

(01:01:05):
the whole day and getting firedat the end of the day.
I was like just text me in themorning Like I'm not supposed to
go, so I can take a nap, so Ican keep sleeping.
Yeah, and I was like I'm goingto feel bad either way but now
I've done a whole day's worth ofwork instead.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Yeah, well, at that time, yeah, does anybody have
any closing thoughts?
I know I, now that we've hadthis conversation, I have a lot
of work I can do on myself.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
Thanks, fuckers also, I'm pleased by all means self.
You're amazing.
Any part of your system thatthinks you're not amazing I
support you working on, but alot of the problems that you're
having are not you, they are.
They are the cadre cornucopiaof fuck boys that you have

(01:01:49):
encountered who are not actinglike fuck men, which I love.
Thank you, my favorite thing Iappreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
I really appreciate that.
Take it to heart also.
I love a fuck man.
Sounds way better than a fuckboy like right.
Grow the fuck up, guys.
Be less scared and selfish.
You know, eric, thank you somuch for actually I have one
last question for you, please umyeah.
Can you let us know the momentsince you like wandered around

(01:02:17):
the world for so long notrealizing that your point of
view and perspective and the wayyou operated was wildly
different from everybody else?
Like, do you remember themoment that you had an
interaction with somebody whereyou were like, oh, I'm different
and it's not working with therest of the world?

Speaker 4 (01:02:35):
I think.
I think it was when I askedwhat somebody in the room, when
I saw in a movie being jealousand then everyone being like, oh
, that person really loves them,turning to probably a parent
and being like, is that true?
Is that how you know you reallylove somebody?
So that was when I really kindof realized I had no clue that
jealousy was supposed to be thisforce that we're supposed to

(01:02:56):
feel and be positive.
And then, on the other side,probably about 10 years later,
I'm in college and I turned tomy girlfriend like that dude
over there is trying to have sexwith people.
He's so into you, do you thinkhe's good looking?
And in my mind it was because,like, if you do, dude tap that
he seems to be really like,don't want it.

(01:03:18):
But she heard this is a test,this is only and and.
So we had this big fight aboutme testing her loyalty and we
had lots of big fights.
But I think it was then that waslike I don't get it, I really
don't get it.
And then I think I think shemay have said something like
what do you want to be like?
Make a swingers, or something?
I was like no, but in my headI'm like tell me more, what do

(01:03:44):
you?

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
mean?
What do you mean?

Speaker 4 (01:03:49):
people go into rooms and there's couches and there's
jokes I like swings.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
I like sex.
Keep going, keep going I'minterested.
Yeah, mine, mine is exactly thesame.
It was literally being likesomeone asking me, like, hey, I
was like, would you be jealousif you found out that, like I
was texting this other guy andI'm like, oh, show me.
And they were like what's?
And they were upset at me for,like, not loving yeah and I'm

(01:04:14):
just like.
I stopped the conversation, butlike, because in my head I was
just like.
I was like you seem happy aboutit.
I like it when you're happy.
Show me the happy thing thatmade you happy, because I like
happy you.
They were like you don't loveme.
I'm like, I'm confused.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
What a lovely thing, though, to have somebody that's
like super in love with you andloves having sex.
You guys have love having sextogether, but at the same time,
it's also like that person overthere is checking you out and
they're super fucking hot.
Please go do that and tell meall about it.
Like you're like a team andinto each other.
That sounds like a good time.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
That's great.
Yeah, sophia went to Belgiumand was like I'm probably going
to meet up with this one guy forthe thing and I'm like send me
pictures of you with your dickin your mouth please, for
science of you with your isdicking your mouth.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
Please for science, which I still have and use
regularly.
That's hilarious.
All right, I'll use sexy beast.
All right, I'll use sexy beast,thank you.
Thank you for tuning into thisepisode of talk dirty to me.
I really want to fuck your dick.
I'm so upset now.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
The things I have to Google after this are a problem
that is troubling.
How arousing that was.
Keep going.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
Say do kinky shit to each other with a lisp.
Please Do kinky shit to eachother.
Oh my God.
Can you say eat these grapesout of my toes.
I'm going to stop, we got to go, we got to move other with a
lisp.
Please Do kinky shit to eachother.
Oh my God.
Can you say eat these grapesout of my toes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
I'm going to stop.
We got to go.
We got to move on.
We got to move on.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
You guys got to pay me for this, don't?

Speaker 4 (01:05:46):
forget, don't forget.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
We have a Patreon.
If you go tolittlerenegadefilmscom that's
our production house podcastclick on talk dirty to me
there's.
Oh, the patreon is linked inour show notes.
There's a form on our website.
You can fill it out.
If you want us to talk about aparticular kink or you want a
guest or you know of a guest,that would be good.
It's all right there.
Please visit.
Thank you for listening anduntil next time let's all do

(01:06:11):
kinky shit to one another.
Yeah, wait, what was it?
the weird shit to each otherlet's all do weird shit to one
another.
Bye, bye, bye.

Speaker 4 (01:06:23):
I was sobbing on our couch because I was just like
admitting this part of myselfthat I had not told anyone about
those first explorations arereally the most intimate and the
ones that really kind of stick.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
That's something that I still I am still.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
I've been in therapy still am struggling to like turn
off in my brain.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
We come out with these guards and it's hard to
then figure out how to put themdown.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
I want to feel more empowered in my body, because I
grew up not feeling that way.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Oh sin, Everybody's wiping away tears.
I am.
That was perfect.
I look forward to the day whenour society's progressed past
the point where it's just likethis kind of universally
accepted witch hunt againstanybody who even tries to ask
for help.
So happy that a podcast likethis exists, that you guys have

(01:07:13):
a forum where you know you cantalk so openly about things and,
just especially for me, likeevery episode is eye-opening on
a different perspective.

Speaker 3 (01:07:22):
This is the podcast I always wished existed, so I'm
excited to be a part of.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
It really does seem like we're helping people this
podcast really is sexy gladwe're back for a third season.
Well, I guess we should do ouroutro.
Um casey, do the, do the thingy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
But you know, do it, do it sexy talk dirty to Me is a
podcast by Little RenegadeFilms.
It stars Casey Samuels.
You heard what the man said Doit sexy, okay, okay, I'll do it
sexy.
God Talk Dirty to Me is apodcast by Little Renegade Films
.
It stars Casey Samuels, tosinAwafeso and aaron.

(01:08:00):
For more of our offerings, goto.