In a Relationship with a Narcissist? Here's What You Need to Know!

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Do the sex Think fun, honest and feminist as fuck,
and always with the goal offighting the patriarchy.
One female orgasm at a time.
Welcome to the locker room.
Today's topic think you loved anarcissist?

(00:46):
Here's how to break free andrecover for good.
Look, I've been there, stuck ina relationship that made me
question everything, includingmyself.
One minute they made me feelspecial, and the next I was
walking on eggshells wonderingwhat I did wrong.
Sound familiar.
If you've ever found yourselfwondering was I with a

(01:07):
narcissist or worse, was it myfault?
This episode is for you.
I'm sitting down with therapistSonnet Daymont to break down the
real signs of narcissisticrelationships, why we get pulled
into them and, most importantly, how to heal, rebuild and never
go back.
Sonnet is a highly accomplishedtherapist specializing in

(01:29):
trauma, anxiety and resilience.
She's considered an expert intrauma and is currently working
on a book about overcomingtrauma and relationships with
people diagnosed with dark triadpersonality disorders, called
when Dangerous Feels Like Home.
That title resonates for somedisturbing reason.

(01:51):
Sonnet, I would love it if youwould just take a moment to tell
my listeners a little bit moreabout you.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Sure, like you said, my name is Sonnet Damon.
I'm a licensed marriage andfamily therapist based in the
Los Angeles area.
Primarily, I see people who areovercoming different forms of
trauma or processing anxiety,and I'm excited to be here and
talk to you about the way I dotherapy for assessing and then
overcoming narcissistic abuse.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yes.
So, listeners, I think this isgoing to be an episode that's
going to be very useful andresonate with, unfortunately, a
lot of people, and I really wantyou to listen and stay through
to the end, because it's goingto help you understand better
what kind of relationshipsyou've been in, you are in, or
that you don't want to go backto how to identify them and then

(02:42):
how to not only get out of themand recover, but to get to a
place where you're not justleaving one toxic or
narcissistic relationship toenter yet another.
One of the things I've beentalking to a lot of people about
lately is there came a point inmy life where I had to say, yes
, I've had a lot of unsuccessful, bad or toxic relationships,

(03:03):
but there's one commondenominator, and that's me right
.
I'm in control of this to someextent, and the same is for you.
So you have the opportunityright now to talk to an expert,
or listen to an expert onnarcissistic relationships and
get some real guidance andtakeaways within an hour that

(03:25):
can help you transform how youengage in relationships, and we
will, of course, be giving youtakeaways at the end to get you
started on a journey back tohaving healthy relationships.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
So are you ready?

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Ready to dive in Sana , because I think I am.
I hope I am All right.
Cheers, let's talk about havinghealthy relationships in the
future.
Cheers, all right.
I want to start with an obviousquestion.
In your practice, how do youdefine narcissistic personality

(04:00):
disorder, or how do you identifywhen someone has truly been in
relationship with a narcissist?

Speaker 2 (04:08):
And so when a new client comes in to see me and
they're coming in to grieve orto get over a breakup, whether
or not they identify it as anarcissistic relationship across
the board, most therapists willsort of assess and scan to see
if there were incidents of abuse.
We're trained to do that.
So we'll listen for qualifiersof emotional abuse and there's

(04:32):
multiple assessments.
You can look up.
The Gottmans have assessmentson emotional abuse and I'll
listen to the experiencesthey've had and see if any of
those sound abusive.
And then I'll screen forprenatal abuse.
I'll ask about sexual abuse andphysical abuse to see what they
went through and if any ofthose more toxic or abusive

(04:54):
interactions, matched with thequalifiers of narcissistic abuse
.
And narcissism as a dark triad,tends to result in a lack of
empathy or a real challenge atexperiencing empathy.
And so with that comesbehaviors and interactions where
it's clear over time to theperson who's in relation with

(05:17):
them that there really isn't asense of consistent or maybe any
empathy.
So that is a nice screenerthere, seeing if empathy is
involved.
Manipulation is a bigcharacteristic of those with
narcissism and then of course,like attention seeking and a
drive for attention.
A lot of times in narcissisticrelationships you'll hear about

(05:38):
things like jealousy induction,where the partner tries to make
the other person jealous bydoing comparisons or checking
out other people or openlyflirting or bringing in reasons
to make the person feel insecureas a form of manipulation.
Additionally, when someone'smain drive is external
validation and attention, you'llsee that play out when the

(06:00):
couple socializes.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
I hear a lot of people, when they come out of
relationships that were clearlytoxic on some level, saying I
think I was.
I think that my ex was anarcissist.
I think that I was in anarcissistic relationship.
What are some clear indicatorsmaybe for a person who's

(06:23):
struggling to at least figure itout right?
What are some things that youwould say?
If you've seen X, y and Z, thisis a pretty good indicator that
the relationship was leaningtowards being with a narcissist.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
I tend to go off those basics lack of empathy,
manipulation, and the realsource of feeling powerful and
having a sense of self-esteem inthe world comes from attention,
external validation from otherpeople.
When you're in a relationshipwith someone who's got those
three things going on, it feelsvery different than when you're

(07:03):
in a relationship with someonewho doesn't.
There's manipulation andgaslighting and emotional abuse.
Examples aren't happening inrelationships with people who
don't have narcissism.
In the same way, Now you couldhave somebody who maybe is
incredibly immature or hasdissociative identity disorder
or some other disorder going on,or has dissociative identity

(07:26):
disorder or some other disordergoing on and they'll still
experience infancy, going backto signs of abuse.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
What are some subtle signs of narcissistic abuse
within a relationship thatindividuals often overlook or
explain away so that they canstay in the relationship or
justify it to themselves?

Speaker 2 (07:46):
Great question, right ?
The question of what are thesubtle signs that you see when
you're in a relationship with anarcissist that you might not
notice early on or you mightexcuse or explain a way, will
vary from person to person, butthere are some that are pretty
common.
For starters, gaslighting isreally common, where you're told
one thing and then it changesthe next time you talk.

(08:08):
Or sort of Jekyll and Hyde, hotand cold behavior.
One day you're the best cookever, the next day you can't be
trusted with a knife, you're areally bad cook.
Sort of shaking the self-esteema little bit Oftentimes when
people come in to therapy withme and I'm kind of assessing oh,
was this narcissism or was itjust toxic and immature?

(08:31):
What I tend to see is the peoplewith more like abusive
narcissistic partners will beblaming themselves more, like
they really bought into themanipulation and the gaslighting
, to the point where they're notblaming the partner for
everything and they're not beingable to see like, well, the
partner did this and then I didthat and now I got to solve this

(08:54):
mystery.
It's way over here where like,oh, I am terrible, I did all
these horrible things.
He was right because I gainedweight, he had to cheat on me or
whatever sort of twisted,gaslighting thinking was thrown
out there by the abusive person.
They have believed it, which isalso how we end up staying too

(09:17):
long.
A lot of times.
People will see behavior likethat and they'll leave Not
everybody.
And what is that difference?
That difference?
Right, there is something thatis a combination of sure, maybe
your narcissist was especiallycunning and manipulative, but
also like how did you havesomeone call you a name and not

(09:40):
say I don't let you call menames?

Speaker 1 (09:43):
I think that that is, you know, something that I've
grappled with, as I've done myown healing process, and one of
the things that I think ishardest to heal from when you've
gotten out of a relationshipthat wasn't healthy is like how
did I let somebody do that to me?
You know, because if one of mygood friends said to me, hey, my

(10:05):
ex did X, y and Z to me, or myex said this or did this to me,
I would be like why the fuck areyou with them?
Like that's so horrific.
But as someone who's in thatkind of relationship, it's just
it's so easy to make excuses,right.

(10:27):
So, or, you know, it has felteasy for me Like I can see how
I've excused over my lifetime indifferent relationships things
away.
So I guess that brings me to donarcissists, look for certain
types of people to try to getinto a relationship with.
Or are there certain types ofpeople who are prone to falling

(10:51):
prey to narcissists and enteringrelationships with them?

Speaker 2 (10:56):
I think there's probably a little bit of a
combination right.
Like even within narcissism,there's a spectrum of some
narcissists tend to be more likethe victim narcissist, some
tend to be more the grandiosenarcissist, and we all tend to
know about that spectrum ofbehavior where the victim wants
the attention of being harmedand wants to manipulate people

(11:17):
by being rescued, and so thatexternal validation comes from
that role of victimhood.
Validation comes from that roleof victimhood, whereas the
grandiose wants the externalvalidation for being the best,
for being seen as attractive orsmart or whatever it is, and so
there's those two sort ofdirections that the narcissism
tends to veer.
And even within that there's afactor of what we call like

(11:40):
Machiavellianism or like a moreof a streak of meanness or
predatory behavior.
Some narcissists are a littlemore attention seeking, but it's
all about the attention.
They're not necessarily likestrategic enough to figure out
the long game of hooking you inand being Machiavellian and
manipulative to a degree that islike predatory and harms other

(12:03):
people.
It's more straight out aboutthe attention.
So that really varies.
So if you say, do narcissistsconsciously seek out their
supply, probably depends on thenarcissist and where they sit on
those different spectrums oftypes.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, and do you think that there are certain
types of people who are moreprone to, certain types of
people who are more prone to getinto relationships with
narcissists, or who are morevulnerable to narcissists.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
I think that's also a good question because,
similarly, like we all have thissort of constellation of being.
You picture the spectrum that Ijust laid out of, like those
quadrants of types of narcissism, where we have all sorts of
quadrants of types of thingswithin us that we put up with,
don't put up with, they'reinterested in, not interested in
for various degrees.
So it really would depend onthe individual person.

(12:56):
Therapy with a professionalafter an experience like that is
important because you canreally lean into who you are and
get to know yourself and figureout how to do your internal
healing.
If you're finding yourself inthat same pattern over and over
again, it's not victim shamingor anything to look at yourself

(13:17):
and say, hey, wait a minute,what's going on.
My friend over here hasn't hadfour of these guys.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
That's a hard.
It's a hard, that's a hardconversation to have with
yourself.
I think for me it has been ahard road to look at myself and
say over the course of my lifeand like not all of my
relationships have been toxic orbad, but there's enough of them
, right, that I'm like wherereally extreme things have

(13:46):
happened, that I had to havethat conversation.
And I like that you bring upthis as a victim blaming,
because ultimately I felt likein the long road, looking at
myself and saying again I'm thecommon denominator.
It gave me some power.
I didn't feel like I was justgoing to continue to move
through the world in a way inwhich I might fall into yet

(14:06):
another trap and another trapuntil the day I died.
Right, it gave me hope.
It was like oh, I can do thiswork here and then be in healthy
relationships.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, and I think that's absolutely true.
I mean, there's endless supplyof interventions and types of
therapy and exercises that youcan go out there to do to get
relief and learn skills andlearn about boundaries and even
just learn how to read peopleWithin narcissism.
You know, you asked me like isthere like always a prey drive?

(14:40):
I'm in a college like a dog,but is there always like a thing
they're scanning for that makespeople more susceptible?
And that, I think, variesindividually on the narcissism,
as does most things Like, we'reall individuals, but certain
behaviors like love bombingpeople talk about that all the
time.
It's nice that this like trendof people wondering if their

(15:00):
partners are narcissists afterthey have a shitty breakup is
out there, because now peopleare talking about love bombing
and looking at it and it isoften a red flag that something
is going on that might not besafe in the long term.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Can you talk about love bombing?
Is it a sort of key signifierof being engaged in something
with a narcissism, and in whatways do narcissists use love
bombing?

Speaker 2 (15:32):
So my experience working with different clients
and then just knowing differentpeople that are on the spectrum
of dark triads personally andprofessionally yeah, that does
tend to show up, whether someonehas narcissism, sociopathy or a
psychopath or these are moretrendy terms than what you see

(15:53):
in the DSM.
But antisocial personalitydisorder or borderline
personality disorder with moremalignant traits, those sorts of
things, those personalities dotend more often than not to
engage in a really fast come onin the relationship Love bombing
, like all of a sudden we'regoing on trips.
You're the best partner I'veever had.

(16:14):
Let me tell you how much.
The other ones were not sogreat.
Let's go to dinner every night.
Can I text you the entire daywith explicit texts so that
you're just so into me you can'tthink about anything else.
Like that type of bomb, lovebombing, where they just come in
so strong, does align withpeople that end up not being

(16:35):
very healthy.
And are they all narcissists?
No, are some of them possiblyworse in terms of danger and
discomfort of dating them?
Possibly Are some of them notas bad, possibly it's just a
whole spectrum.
But when you're getting in arelationship really fast like

(16:56):
that, why aren't you reflectingon how you feel about the person
.
Feel about the person listeningto what they tell you about
themselves and checking inbetween seeing how it feels to
spend a day or two apart, likewhy so?

Speaker 1 (17:11):
fast, yeah, and it's interesting because I think,
talking to my girlfriends, weall love like instant chemistry,
hot and heavy, and I think whatI have learned is that you can
have instant chemistry and hotand heavy, but it's a
conversation that you can havewith someone and you can both

(17:35):
like in a healthy connection.
If you are able to identify wow, this feels intense, let's take
our time, let's get to knoweach other, whereas when I have
been in unhealthy relationships,there's been the grandiose
statements, actions, and then ifI said, okay, let's like slow

(17:56):
down, or I pulled back a bit,the reaction to that would be
super negative or there would bea nasty kind of reaction to it.
Because I think for women andlike I don't know, I'm not a man
, so I'm not going to speak formen, but I do think women love
like an incredible romance thattakes off fast, right, but it

(18:18):
obviously can put us in aposition of being prey to
someone who is narcissistic andis there for their own reasons.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, I mean, it does make you vulnerable to that
right Because you don't havetime to think and reflect in
between.
And then, at the same time,there's this added piece of like
why don't I just sit withmyself and think and reflect in
between Right and what does thisperson?
do what's going on here.

(18:48):
Are we not satisfied enough inour own selves, or is this just
so powerful and good and why nottemper it and slow it down?
There's a great book that Irefer people to towards the end
of therapy sometimes at thebeginning, when we're dealing
with relationships like thiscalled how to Not Die Alone, by
Logan Urie, and she's fun.

(19:09):
She was a psychologist thatworked with Google doing IUX and
trying to figure out how tomake things more addictive and
engaging, and then she movedover to dating apps after that,
and so this book is about moreor less how dating apps are
engaging and addictive.
And as you read this book, shetalks a lot about research out

(19:34):
there on healthy relationshipsand research out there on dating
slow and all this differentresearch that's utilized in the
creation of these apps to makethem more engaging.
And in this book she obviouslyhas a side business where she's
trying to sell being a datingcoach or an expert in her own
rank.
She brings in that research totry to educate people on what
does current research I thinkthis one was published in 23,

(19:55):
say on dating what's mosteffective, and in there there
was one reference that I recallabout people who choose to wait
two months to have sex.
It's a really long time ifsomeone is texting you all day
trying to take you on trips,trying to take you out to dinner
every night or every couplenights.

(20:18):
So if you space the dates out,you get a little bit more time
to experience whatever thismystery is that happens if you
wait two months.
And what they say happens inthis research that she
references is that the sort ofchemistry that you experience in
early dating will last longerif you are slower to start.
The intimacy in general whichis kind of fascinating because

(20:41):
you think I'm sure you've beenin long-term relationships too
it changes.
In fact she talks a little bitabout the neuroscience of love,
like that first early chemistryis really intense and then it
slowly becomes like a differenttype of fun, interesting
chemistry.
But a lot of people, especiallypeople that are more on that
impulsive, narcissistic spectrum, they want to go back to that

(21:04):
early hot sex over and overagain and the reality is is you
want it to progress and feeldifferent.
So more parts of your brain andattachment, and I think that's
a great read If any of yourreaders are in that stage where
they're like okay, I've donethis work.
I see that I got in this hardrelationship.
Now how do I start figuring outhow to get into healthier?

Speaker 1 (21:23):
ones Right.
So a good question is what'sthe arc for?
Not the narcissist, but aperson who's suddenly going?
I think I might be in not onlya toxic relationship but a
relationship with a narcissist.
We all have that moment wherewe're like this really is not

(21:45):
feeling right.
Can we talk a little bit aboutthe arc from the beginning, what
it looks like at the beginning,to that point where we start,
the turning starts to happen andthen the thoughts start
happening where it's like thisdoesn't.
Something doesn't feel right.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, yeah, and it's such a painful process if you've
been through it or supported afriend or anyone through it,
right, and often what happens ispeople come in and they're
doing the questioning.
We're arguing a lot.
Is it me?
Are sexes as great?
Is it me?
This is happening?
That is happening.
Is it me as opposed to the moreneutral?

(22:25):
I know I did this, they do this.
This is where we're at.
How do we navigate it as a teamor what am I missing here?
It's more of a self-blame.
And what I tend to watch for andthe way I tend to conceptualize
those early stages of waking upto it and what I will will flat

(22:46):
out say a lot of times, is ifyour partner is really really
nice sometimes and then reallyreally unkind sometimes and
you're just going back and forth, back and forth, how would you
not be puppy trained to behave acertain way so that they're
nice all the time, like it wouldjust be exhausting after a
while you would just give up andstart doing their preferences,

(23:08):
so that you're over here, right,and look at that consciously
and start figuring out if maybea little bit of that is
happening, like are you goingback and forth?
And then, in general, if youhad like a coworker or a
girlfriend that was in yourfriendship group, if she was
super, super nice, your bestfriend one day, and then like a
total negative person and usingthe information she got when she

(23:31):
was nice to like talk bad aboutyou or be manipulative, you
probably wouldn't give her allthat nice information when she's
nice, right, if she's hot andcold, hot.
So why are you doing that withyour partner, like what's
happening here, and so justhaving like that sort of open
dialogue about that?
Now, that situation wheresomeone's hot, cold, hot cold is

(23:53):
very different in narcissismthan when somebody is just kind
of immature.
When someone's immature andthey're growing as a person,
they're going to feel empathy.
They're going to be sad.
You're upset.
They're going to be in themiddle too.
What did I do wrong?
How do I take accountability?
How do I change?
You'll have some hard thingshappen, but you'll see some

(24:14):
change in behavior over time.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
It sounds like one of the key things to look for in a
partner to know that you're inconnection with a healthy person
is empathy from them whenthings get hard or difficulties
arise.
So I know this may sound like asilly question what?
But?
But I'm going to argue thatpeople who are repeatedly

(24:40):
getting pulled into toxicrelationships with narcissists
or other people with those kindof disorders might not know what
empathy looks like from apartner, especially if you grew
up with you know parents whoweren't particularly empathetic,
or siblings.
What does empathy look likewhen you are in a relationship

(25:05):
with a healthy person and thingsget hard and you have problems,
as opposed to what it lookslike when you're with a
narcissist who doesn't haveempathy for you or the situation
?

Speaker 2 (25:19):
When I start off with you, with people and looking at
that connection betweenchildhood experiences, or how
did you miss this right?
Or what is empathy?
What does empathy feel likewhen it's consistent, someone's
consistently?
What I sort of do is havepeople do like an inventory and

(25:40):
collect data of the experiencesthey've had.
And there's this great bookcalled Getting Past your Breakup
by Susan Elliott where inchapter six she presents this
inventory where people write outthe experiences they've had
with their partner.
When people come into session,I have them write out two or
three partners.
We'll just do lines on the pageand they'll answer 13 questions

(26:01):
on the last three partners andthen we've got sort of some data
points.
When people have empathy, dothey do these things?
We can talk about it right.
And then we go into a secondsection of that inventory where
they do the exact same rollouton the people who were around
them when they grew up.
If they were raised in aboarding school environment with

(26:21):
a nanny, if they were raisedwith two parents or a grandma,
whoever raised them.
Same similar questions, andthen we can see how the
behaviors line up and that givesus a really good opportunity to
talk about like what healthyempathy looks like.
Usually there's at least onecaregiver in there who had
displays of healthy empathy, sowe can talk about what that

(26:44):
looks like, what that feels like.
We can talk about our ownrelationship.
Are you trusting me as atherapist?
Do you think that I'mexperiencing a genuine curiosity
?
And when you say that and Iscrunch my face and touch my
heart a little bit, do you thinkit's performative or do you
think I'm actually feeling it?
And what does it feel like tohave someone care enough to

(27:06):
react when you tell themsomething hard?
How is that?
And so you've got these twodifferent ways in which you can
approach, like looking at,talking about and feeling into
what empathy is like.
But you can also go the otherroute of you know how you
experience empathy when you carefor other people.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
What does it feel like when you have it Right, and
so what does empathy in ahealthy relationship look like?
What is it when you're with apartner and things get hard?
What should people be lookingfor to know that you've got a
partner capable of empathy?

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, I mean absolutely.
In early relationships there'sgoing to be conflict and
challenges like that.
You want that so you can seehow the two of you work through
it.
When those situations come up,a person who has empathy will be
curious about what you'reexperiencing in the midst of the
conflict.

(28:02):
It's not about a competition ofwho won.
It's they're able to keep theiremotional regulation and their
curiosity and their engagementwith you open enough to where
they're able to hear that I haverandom conflict.
If, when, when you leave yourpens all over my desk, my ADHD

(28:24):
gets super triggered and I can'tfocus at work.
And can you please just putyour pens in the pen cup, right,
and then the person who'sleaving the pens everywhere
isn't like you're controlling.
They're able to say, oh, I hearthat you can't focus when my
pens are everywhere.
Okay, I'm going to work reallyhard to gather these pens and I
might mess up a couple of times,but I don't want you to be in

(28:46):
pain and I'm sorry.
In fact, I'm going to put threepen cups over there so that
I've got some kind of strategyso we can get this right.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
So they care about, like, what it is that's creating
conflict within you and they'rewilling to problem solve that
with you.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, yeah.
They're hearing your experience, they're curious about your
experience, they're imaginingwhat it's like for you to have
that experience and they don'twant you to suffer.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
They don't want you to suffer, right?
I want to share sort of apersonal.
I was actually talking tosomeone about this this morning
because they were asking me asthis year I finally opened up to
like I've opened up to beingopen to meeting people.
I'm not like aggressivelytrying to find anyone.
I'm not out there searching formy next love, but I'm like if I

(29:35):
meet someone, I'm going toallow myself to like explore
that.
And so this person was askingme what are your hard no's that
you've learned from your pastrelationships?
And I was trying to.
I wasn't very good at puttingthis into a little soundbite for
them, but what you just told meresonates.

(29:58):
So, for instance, one thing Iam an anxious person.
I tend towards being anxiouslyattached, right.
So if someone pulls away fromme, I'm going to pull towards
them a little bit more, and thishas been across my life.
And one of the things I dounconsciously with the people I
love if I think for something,for some reason, they might be
upset with me or I'm feelinganxious about our connection is

(30:21):
I'll say I love you and I'll sayit a lot Meaning within an hour
.
if they're sitting there with me, I won't even recognize I'm
doing it, but I'll say itfrequently where it fits right.
And with an ex, he pointed itout and it in a way that was
like so do I have to say thisback to you every time you say
it.
And I became veryself-consciously aware of it and

(30:45):
I didn't have the resources tosay, oh, I say that when I'm
feeling anxious, like this mightbe an indicator that I'm
anxious about something that'sgoing on with us.
And when I finally had theresources because then what he
would do is withhold saying itback to me.
And it was very clear andembarrassing because then I was
like, oh, I've just said I loveyou and you're being silent or

(31:07):
looking like nonchalantly theother way it was very clear when
I finally had the resources tosay it's because I'm feeling
anxious, like maybe we couldfigure out, like what I really
wanted in return was for him tosay hey, I noticed that you have
been saying this a lot over thelast hour.

(31:28):
Right, like something is clearlygoing on.
What's going on?
Like you're clearly anxious.
What can I do to help you?
Or what can we do to figure outwhat's uncomfortable here.
I feel like that's anempathetic reaction.
So, as opposed to withholdingand not saying it back and

(31:50):
making it very clear that I'mdoing this annoying thing, so I
feel like is that a good exampleof what you're talking about?

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, well, and not an uncommon example.
I've heard that exact thingwith the.
I love you and seekingreassurance that you're loved
when you feel sort of moved awayfrom and I think you're right.
Wouldn't it be beautiful if youpicked a partner who was
consistently kind and, when youfound yourself doing that, said

(32:19):
hey, I'm curious, I noticed yousaid I love you more today than
normal, why not?

Speaker 1 (32:27):
That's empathetic.
So I wanted to share thatexample with listeners because I
think, like there is a goodexample where, instead of me
thinking wow, that's not anempathetic way to react to my
anxiousness, I thought, oh,something's wrong with me
because I'm anxious.
How embarrassing.
Something's wrong with me, youknow, I'm just too nervous, I'm

(32:48):
too insecure.
Wrong with me, you know, I'mjust too nervous, I'm too
insecure.
And I think that that's a goodexample of something to look for
in a relationship with someonewho's not healthy for you, at
the very least, right.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, I think so.
I think that that's a beautifulexample.
That's really clear.
I think that will help a lot ofpeople, because I hear that
often.
That exact example and what Ithink is so beautiful about that
is it's also like shining lighton this idea of like kindness,
like is kindness, consistent.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Some people can consistently be kind, choose one
of those you keep sayingconsistent and, and so I want to
shine a light on that, becausewhat people will also say is but
he did this, this wonderfulthing for me.
He went and got me all theseflowers, or I was feeling down
and he wrote me a card.
He sent me a card, but then thenext day he's's like whatever.

(33:51):
It is like ignoring your I loveyou's, or in a bad mood and
cold, and everything you say tohim is like you know what I mean
.
It's not kind.
So it sounds to me like anothermarker here is inconsistency,
if kindness is there.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, yeah, that Jekyll and Hyde, hot and cold,
right?
Most people don't tolerate thehot and cold in their
friendships or with businesspartners.
How safe would that be if yourbusiness partner was hot and
cold?
But in a romantic relationshipit can be.
It seems to me like a littleeasier to say like oh, what if

(34:26):
it's me?
And going back and forth.
And so when I brought up thatintervention I use with the
Susan Elliott book, where we dothe inventories and data point
collecting on like the last fewrelationships and then also on
the childhood relationships,like you really see, like what
are those unmet needs and thenhow do I give them to myself?
Right, I love that.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
That's so that's part of your healing process is
giving consistent kindness toyourself.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
Yeah, and if the unmet need that, you see, let's
say you've got a hot and coldmom, or hot and cold mom and hot
and cold dad, and so it's goingback and forth, back and forth,
and then all these partnershave this hot and cold behavior
and you sort of see it on paper.
Then you know like, hey, I gotenough of these.
If I stay in relation with myparents, do I really want a

(35:18):
partner that's hot and cold?
Maybe when I go out and I date,a value that I look for is
consistent kindness, like whenthey're upset or dysregulated.
Can they remain curious andempathetic while we navigate
conflicts?
If they've had a hard day atwork or something happens that's
stressful to them, do they takethat out on me?

(35:39):
Or are they able to say I needa break, I'm going to go
exercise, go for a walk and behome when I feel good, and I'll
ask for your support then, right?

Speaker 1 (35:50):
All right, that's wow , that's an eye-opener.
There, folks, I just feel likemy whole Dang.
I hadn't even stopped to thinkabout hot and cold throughout my
life.
I've definitely experienced alot of it in relationships, but
I hadn't thought about theorigin of that so much.
Right, because it is.
If you have experienced thatgrowing up and then you're going

(36:14):
to seek that in partners,thinking that's the way
relationships are right.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
Seek it or just not notice, like if a young woman
has like your average.
Well, we all like to fantasizeaverage upper middle class
background with like two lovingparents and like great jobs and
mentors and tutors and like thewhole cheerleading squad and the
whole thing that American youngwomen think they should have

(36:43):
access to.
Or at least that's sort of whatthe view was when I was growing
up.
That's what I thought when Iwatched TV and saw people having
those lifestyles.
When someone has that sort oflike general, like
happy-go-lucky, easy-peasychildhood and they go on a date
with somebody and that somebodysays what's your favorite hobby?
And they say it's, you know,cheerleading, and then the

(37:08):
person they're dating says, well, that's dumb, or are you like a
preppy snob?
They would say, wait what?
I don't?
Let people talk to me like this.
This does not feel good in mybody, you're not kind.
They would notice.
Now, if the same situationhappens with somebody else,
maybe the parents wereinconsistently kind hot, cold,

(37:30):
hot and cold and their date saysyou know what are your hobbies?
And they say, oh, I don't know,I don't have that many.
I like to read, I guess.
And they say, oh, so you're anerd and that young woman's like
father's called her a nerd ormother's told her to stop
reading all the time, orsomething similar to what this
man just said's not necessarilyshe's seeking it out, it's just

(37:51):
like she doesn't notice rightlike you're not notice, right,
and so those sorts of likenagging, unkind, negative
behaviors that like sneak theirway in, aren't necessarily
sought out as much as just youdon't notice that someone's not
being super loving to you.
Now, when we're adults, I liketo think that, as an adult, if I

(38:14):
do this inventory and I writedown what did these past
relationships have in common?
What did childhood have incommon?
Well, I'm circling somenegatives here.
Well, now I'm an adult, I canfigure out how to learn these
behaviors, give these things tomyself and reparent myself, and
I don't have to like I get todecide how I want to navigate
dynamics with parents if they'restill behaving that way.

(38:36):
But I can absolutely learnabout boundaries and cut off
behavior.
So I'm not navigating thatconsistently right.
And and I can also figure outhow to, how to go out and seek
people who don't behave that wayand feel into what that feels
like.
Yeah, learn some of thoselessons.
I think if there's a real lackof assertiveness for one reason

(38:57):
or another.
There's a bunch of books onassertiveness.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
So, before we get into the steps to healing which
I think you're already giving ussome right, like this whole
parenting yourself, or givingthe things to yourself that
you're realizing you haven't hadand you need, and what are
typically the things that bringsomeone to a breaking point when

(39:24):
they're in a relationship witha narcissist- so this is the
part of healing that I think islike is is kind of fascinating
and like just fullself-disclosure, wise, like no
one's interested in doing thiskind of work unless they've had
similar experiences.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
I can speak the language and it's interesting to
me because of that.
So I absolutely have likeempathy for people navigating
this and like a real curiosityand interest and passion
navigating it.
And and at the same time I seethere's like this interesting
paradox where it's like if youwake up to these dynamics as an

(40:02):
adult, if we get into asituation where we really kind
of bottom out with the behaviorsof other people, we we wake up
with an adult vocabulary and anadult ability to go through and
learn Okay, what did I miss?
How do I reparent it?
We can do it really fast,really loving and really

(40:23):
thoroughly right.
And with that comes leadershipskills, because you're able to
describe, catch and see exactlywhat those pathways are.
So if another friend comes toyou or you have a niece or a
young woman and they're engagingin some of that behavior, you
know what questions to ask orhow to sort of see things unfold

(40:43):
in a way that you wouldn'totherwise.
So there's something reallybeautiful about that piece and
in that there's a lot ofresearch on when something hard
happens to us.
If we help other people thathave similar things happen, it's
very healing.
So as much as like getting tothat point where, hey, this is
really awful, and bottomed outis painful, there's like a light

(41:04):
at the end of the tunnel orlike a rainbow or whatever you
want to call it, especially ifyou consider going out there and
courteously coming up with anaction plan to have a really
satisfying next year.
And so I think your originalquestion that I sort of prefaced
with all that, was how do youknow when it's really really bad
, like what does it look like atthe end?

(41:25):
And usually I mean I hate to sayit, but my experience with
people that are truly datingdark triads narcissists,
sociopaths, psychopaths, peoplethat are way off on that end of
the spectrum is that your healthstarts breaking down.
Your physical body can't keepup with chronic stress and

(41:45):
you're very much questioningyourself, not trusting yourself,
trusting your own judgment.
You're unable to tolerate justlike sitting alone.
It doesn't feel good anymore.
There's certain things that Isee over and over again.
Everybody does it a littledifferent, but pretty
consistently there's actualphysical health consequences to

(42:06):
being in a relationship withsomeone who is hot and cold and
inconsistently kind ormanipulative, or all these types
of behaviors that come out whenyou have someone really really
close to you that doesn't haveempathy, like you can't hold
that much stress for a period oftime.
You're not supposed to yourbody's rejecting it, right, and

(42:42):
so that's usually when someonereaches out for help, either
because physically they'regetting ill, taking a toll on
your body, or maybe your work, Idon't know.
You know some women are morework driven, but absolutely it's
going to affect your body too.
That is an indicator that youneed to start paying attention
and like whether or not a womanleaves at that point, or a man,
because women can be abusive,and all these different types of

(43:03):
dark chides.
In fact, the book I'm workingon right now is about women who
have those characteristics.
But when you're in arelationship and that's
happening the person sometimesis the one to leave you because
there's these little cycles oflove-bobbying engaging.
Then they devalue you more orless oftentimes, and then they

(43:24):
get to this discard phase andthen they're searching out a new
prey, a new source of externalvalidation, and then, if they
leave first, then you're dealingwith a, a new prey, a new
source of external validation.
And then, if they leave first,then you're dealing with a
person who's got healthconsequences, feels rejected, is
trying to make sense of allthis gaslighting how much of it
was my fault, how much of it wastheirs.
And nonetheless, they can useall of that information to look

(43:46):
at the reality of what they'veexperienced in the past,
organize it, figure out whatthey want in the future, figure
out how to give themselves whatthey're missing so they can go
after what they want in thefuture and then bring in healthy
people.
And I don't know if I've done agood job expressing this one or
not, but it's absolutelysomething that I do in therapy

(44:07):
and when I am in conversationwith people about this topic.
It's talking about like,reading the like, reading this,
the cues that a person couldpotentially be this way, like
what.
What are the indicators?
And sure, they're a littledifferent for everyone, but but
getting really good at beingable to tell when a person

(44:29):
doesn't have empathyconsistently or kindness
consistently, is reallyimportant.
You don't want to start abusiness with someone like you,
don't want to marry someone likethat.
That is a business.
You're mixing your future.
You're supposed to besupporting and rallying and
helping each other, right, youdon't?
It doesn't sound like a funperson to have lunch with, nope.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
To have anything with , like the hot, cold, the
push-pull, the.
I mean it's an exhausting thingto experience and I want to say
this I think this is also whywomen who get out of
relationships with narcissisticindividuals have a massive glow

(45:12):
up after.
I mean, your body is going tostart healing the minute it gets
to rest and relax from constant, never-ending stress and
anxiety.
You can't help like, but youknow, start to heal.
If you've lost hair from it,your hair will start to grow

(45:35):
back.
If you've gained weight fromyour, you know cortisol levels
being out of control, you'regoing to start to like see some
of that dissipate, right?

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, yeah, you do so .

Speaker 1 (45:49):
here are the perks people.
Yeah, yeah, you do so here arethe perks people?

Speaker 2 (45:53):
yeah, those are awesome perks, but even even
just being able to like sit withthe self and figure out, like,
what are my dreams and goals andwhat do I want next and how do
I find supportive people can Iask you this and then we'll get
into then?

Speaker 1 (46:07):
I want to start giving a package of like steps
towards healing things peoplecan do your approach to that,
Because I feel like this is sortof an epiphany I've had over
the last stretch of time.
I think for me, like Irecognize that I have a pattern
of getting into deeprelationships where I'm just

(46:28):
crazy about really unhealthypeople and part of the thing
that I had to come to terms withwas that I wasn't just doing
that in my romanticrelationships.
I could also then look at myfriendships, my deep friendships
, and see where I was invitingsome of that behavior in, or
people with those behaviors intomy friendship circle, into

(46:53):
connection, and I wasexperiencing some of the same
discomfort and anxiety in thosefriendships.
Is that something that peoplecan look for who are like oh,
I'm not only in, you know, arelationship with someone
romantically this way, but thisis also perhaps in other areas
of my life.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
There's absolutely cases for that.
I'm thinking about this otherbook that I really enjoyed, but
unfortunately the author passedaway not too long ago.
He wrote two books.
One was called Psychopath Freeand the other was called Whole
Again, and his name is jacksonmckenzie.
They're great little books andhe based them on a bunch of

(47:34):
interviews.
He was a coach rather than atherapist and in those books he
talks about how, at the end ofnarcissistic relationships or
relationships with people thatare dark trans, there tends to
be like friends that come aroundthat are like curious about the
drama, and it happened enoughtimes in these interviews that

(47:55):
they were able to like writeabout the commonalities, like,
oh, who were the friends thatlike just came at you real fast
and they were like your bff inthe midst of healing from a
toxic relationship orrelationship with a narcissist,
and then how did you navigateyour way out of those dynamics
and figure out how to find moresupportive ones?
That's a great little set ofbooks to read.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Wow, that's an interesting phenomena.
So let's talk about it this wayEither you have been discarded
or you gained the courage to belike I need you to leave my life
now, like I know that thisisn't healthy.
I have to get out of it.
What?
How do we begin to move forwardwith healing?

(48:36):
Because I would imagine, andyou can confirm or deny that
most people, when they come outof long-term I would say when I
say long-term, a year or more,longer relationships with
narcissists, they're not ingreat condition physically,
emotionally, mentally,spiritually, holistically.

(48:57):
So what does that look like?
Starting to move forward andheal and in a way that will keep
you from going back intoanother narcissistic
relationship?

Speaker 2 (49:10):
I could speak to the way I do it with my clients and
what I've seen in books anddifferent strategies other
therapists use.
Everybody's experience can be alittle different.
It's not like there's a setladder of rules or steps you
have to take in order to get tothe end.
It can happen in a differentorder and in a different way for
everyone.

(49:30):
But I'll sort of talk youthrough what I do with folks.
I will start off by doing thatgetting past your breakup
inventory and we'll put allthose things on paper so we can
kind of look at the data pointsand then we talk about okay,
where are the reparenting piecesand how do you give that to
yourself and tolerate that right?

(49:50):
And then we do some mindfulnessexercises, some basic CBT.
Cognitive behavior therapy islike dog training.
It's one of the easiesttherapies and it's just so
beautiful and effective.
Research over and over again onCBT it's helpful.
That includes mindfulness,thought restructuring and
extinguishing through exposures.
So going out there andexperiencing things that trigger

(50:12):
the memories for life.
And in that process we figureout how to mindfully catch when
our moods and feelings aredysregulated, how to catch the
way we have fear-based thoughtsand how to navigate them and
fact check them with reality.
And in that place of working onthought restructuring they call

(50:32):
it I tend to go into theschemas more, depending on where
the person is.
An adult woman is a lotdifferent than like an
18-year-old woman.
There's an older woman that'sdifferent than 18-year-old.
So maturity, all sorts ofthings, but we evaluate together
.
Do you want to do schema work?
And schema work is how doeswhat you think about get

(50:53):
influenced by what you grew upbeing around as a kid?
So then we get a little moreinto that experience with the
sorry.
So then we get more into theexperience of navigating, like
the parent relationships, and isthere any actual trauma there

(51:14):
that you're afraid to look atand you're not able to look at
in order to see that, hey, I'mputting up with stuff I
shouldn't, because I don't evenwant to look at the fact that
I'm up with it.
And at that point I'll often dosomething called EMDR with women
or men men come in for this tooand withDR we look at the
exposures and the extinguishing,the way going into the memories

(51:36):
feels, and then we can pull outthe lessons learned and bring
down the reactivity to thememories or the triggers of the
memory so you can toleratepulling your wisdom out.
And then, once you're in aplace where you more or less,
and then once you're in a placewhere you more or less know what
you were doing, why you weredoing it, we start figuring out

(51:56):
how do you care for yourself,right?
How do you start giving thosethings to yourself?
And along the way, I weave thatin through mindfulness, but
getting to the point where youcan notice that you're having a
hard emotion and trust that youcan feel it all the way through.
You could put your hand on yourchest when you're feeling

(52:17):
lonely or when you're feelinghurt, that you remember someone
doing something and you can siton your couch or your bed and
just notice what it feels likein your body when you feel that
way and let yourself feel it allthe way through till it leaves
you and then so yourself feelenergized again and then go out

(52:38):
there and like function well andbeing able to process feelings
in real time, as opposed to notbeing able to tolerate the
feeling or look at the badexperience.
That is a big piece of what Icall like reparenting right and
and like showing up for the self.
Sometimes people have likereally superficial things, like
if you were married to someoneand you missed out on your

(52:59):
education because maybe they hadnarcissism and you just put all
your energy into building uptheir career instead of your own
, then maybe something that'sreally important in terms of
your reparenting is to figureout, like what are my dreams and
goals, what do I want to do,and then what is my action step
to start finding people who'vedone that, so I can feel

(53:20):
supported while I go.
Do it.
Finding healthy people.
I tend to do a lot of workaround boundaries.
How do we know if someonequalifies to be our acquaintance
?
What's the behavior of anacquaintance?
What's the behavior of a friendthat we share with a friend
that we don't share with anacquaintance?
What are the qualifiers to beclose-knit, even closer than a

(53:44):
friend to get lunch with hereand there?
What do we share with thosepeople that we don't share with
the other people?
Now, when we bring a romanticpartner in, do they need to meet
all those qualifiers so that Iknow that they're safe before I
open up my whole, my body, myfinances, everything to them?
Or do they just need to be hotand we'll see what happens?
Yeah, and yeah, I hate to say itbut, like oftentimes when we're

(54:08):
young or we're just so engulfedinto the chemistry of the
relationship, or let's say, wejust fill out a bio on a dating
app and someone shows up andthey say you know what I'm?
All those things you say youwant, and you're like, oh cool,
Then we can.
Fantastic.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Let's get married.
Yeah, no, right.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
I think they're predatory and they're on the
dating apps and they're like ohcool, I just have to pretend to
be this.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
Nice, I can do that for six months.
I'm telling you six months.
They can't do it any longerthan six months.
It's a six-month mark.
Everything goes south you getit.
I'm telling you, I feel likethree to six months, that's
about as long as they can be theperfect picture, but even in
that time frame, you'll seelittle things.

(54:53):
I love all of those pieces thatyou mentioned because I feel
like a lot of them resonate withthings that I myself have been
doing.
I'm like, okay, I've been onthe right track right Over the
last year and a half, and I lovethat.
You talk about learning how tosit with the feelings, the awful
feelings that come afterwardsand tell you and soothe yourself

(55:17):
and talk to yourself and sayafterwards and tell you and
soothe yourself and talk toyourself and say, yeah, you're
feeling really sad right now,because of course, you are.
That was a really painful thingthat happened.
You know, like and it's okay tobe feeling this way and say all
of the loving things toyourself, like you would
somebody else, right?

(55:38):
And the cool thing is is thenyou realize you're always going
to be there for yourself, right?
You're always a resource foryourself.

(56:05):
You know, coming out,everything's raw, everything
feels like it's falling apart,and this is a way you can start
to put the pieces back together,back together.
So I'm curious now about whereI'm at which is so you've gone

(56:27):
and you've talked to therapy.
You've done some CBD cognitivebehavioral therapy which I think
you're right is one of the goldstar approaches to healing and
there's so many techniqueswithin it that I love that this
reparenting exercise and conceptyou bring in, and then the EMDR
I've also experienced that andthere are a lot of pieces and,

(56:51):
of course, getting guidance fromsomeone who knows how to tie it
all together for you.
It's important to get helpright, but eventually you're
going to get to a point,hopefully, where you're like
okay, maybe now I'm open tobeing open to meeting people.
I think one of the biggestthings that comes up for me and

(57:15):
so whenever it's something thatcomes up for me I have to
imagine this is common foreverybody else is like how do I
trust myself?
You know like, how do I trustmyself?
And I know when I started tohave feelings for someone for
the first time, there was somuch fear.
It was like, oh, this feelinglast time led to a lot of pain

(57:40):
and pain that I have no fuckinginterest in ever returning to,
and that was kind of through myhealing process.
I kept promising myself I'mlike we don't ever have to go
through this again.
Here's the beautiful thing.
It was kind of the same.
When I was giving natural birthto my son, my mantra was I
never have to do this again, Inever have to do that.
And that got me through givingbirth right, and it was kind of

(58:03):
the same thing coming out of areally painful relationship.
So when I started having thoselittle tingles I was like, oh,
this feeling is connected tofear and oh, this feeling could
lead to pain.
Right, give me what, doc.
Tell me what.
What do you do with that doc?

Speaker 2 (58:25):
so what I'm hearing you say is that you feel ready
to date again.
You've done a lot of this workand now it's going to be a
matter of like if I go out thereand I test the waters, it's
it's gonna feel scary and it'sgoing to hurt a little bit.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
And I think, specifically like I've had a lot
of people ask me out, I've goneout on dates and I've met
people, but as of recently, I'vehad some experiences where I
was like oh, kind of like I likethis person, you know.
I mean where the feelings wereelevated on my side which I
didn't expect.
Honestly, I was kind of like Ithink maybe I'm past that kind

(59:00):
of feeling for someone else andI'll just have sort of this like
lovely, you're okay, I'm okay,let's date feeling.
But I started to get like thesparkly feelings you know what I
mean Like the oh, maybe I Earlydating brain chemistry, right.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
So how do you feel like safe, experiencing that
early dating brain chemistrywhich is really electric and
engaging, even my my thoughtwould be learning about early
dating and what happens whenwe're falling in love, like how,
how does that happen in themind?
If you you've got that lobe andyuri book, that'd be a great

(59:36):
starting point and just kind ofwatching this out, right, like
here I am, I'm dating, thinkingabout him more often than not,
I'm having fantasies, I'mexcited and this is what
happened last time and it didn'twork out.
Well, what if I lose controland I miss some red flags, right
?
And so my thought would becommitting to check in with

(59:58):
yourself that Logan Urie book onpage 169, she has these like
eight questions that you askyourself in between each date
and they're questions like howdid you feel around the person?
What did your body feel like?
How do you?
There's a bunch of there's.
I think it's like eight of them.
Actually.
This is top eight questions.
Anyway, checking in continuallyfor a little while, right, see,

(01:00:20):
decide consciously.
Do I want to have sex with thisperson early on and have the
charge of the fun chemistry?

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
I mean that, that that ship has sailed.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Okay, sorry, that ship has sailed I mean, I have a
feeling you're prettyknowledgeable about sex or
bringing it in in different ways, but the reality is is like
attraction does change and ithas to be something that you
want and you think is beautifuland you're looking forward to as

(01:00:53):
a if you want the relationshipto last right, if you're
constantly trying to chase thatearly attraction.
It's important to know aboutthe brain chemistry of
attraction and love, I guess iswhat.
I'm saying Slowing down and justpaying attention to yourself,
trusting that if a conflicthappens you're going to be
gauging like.

(01:01:14):
Is this person consistentlykind?
How did he react when I toldhim X, y, z that put us sort of
at opposing needs at the sametime?
Was he curious?
Was he kind?
Was he making efforts to makesure I felt connected too and my
needs were met?
Was I able to listen to him?
Was I able to stay calm andcurious?

(01:01:37):
Did I make any efforts to makesure his needs were met?

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Yeah, and it's just really kind of like a slow
process.
Can you consciously talk aboutit?
One of the cool things aboutbeing single in our 40s and 50s
and 60s and upwards is that wecan just talk about this stuff
with our partners and if theydon't like it most men if you're
heterosexual and dating men aregoing to be like, hey, I'm more

(01:02:05):
excited about talking aboutthis in my 40s and 50s and 60s
than I was in my 20s Likethey've learned those skills too
.
And not to say that all of themen that are available to date
are there, but there are enoughof them to where it's real easy
to tell if the person can showup and have that conversation.
And if they can't something youwant, which hopefully it is to
be treated with kindnessconsistently.

(01:02:28):
There's others, and it's niceto be by yourself too.
There's lots of fun to be had.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
I think that that was something I have found.
What I love about where I'm atnow and what I think is
important for people to know ifthey're coming out of being in
an unhealthy look, I'm sayingunhealthy relationship maybe
narcissistic, but where thedynamic was unhealthy or you

(01:02:56):
were treated in a way that wasunkind, consistently or
inconsistently is thatrebuilding myself?
After my last relationship andhaving so much time alone, I
learned what it felt like to beat peace and I learned how to
really enjoy that and how toreally enjoy my life on my own

(01:03:17):
terms by myself.
Right, and that piece beingtraded off for a relationship.
You know, I don't want to saytraded off, but what I want to
say is like that piece is reallyvaluable to me.
It's very valuable as a singleperson, and so I think that,

(01:03:38):
unlike maybe before in my lifewhere I hadn't experienced that,
so it wasn't like oh, I'm goingto get in a relationship and
that means that this kind ofsingle piece isn't necessarily
going to be the same.
Like now, I'm like hmm,whatever I'm changing, if I'm
changing my status as single topartnered, it's going to have to

(01:04:00):
be for something that kind oflike equals.
This piece I have on my ownright.
That's kind of what thecompetition is.
The competition is it's got tobe greater than what I've got,
and what I have right now ispretty fucking great.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
I mean, that's one way to look at it.
It sounds like what you'resaying is there's this real
consciousness around how good itfeels to be loving, and on my
own this feels good in a way itdidn't before and I courteously
don't want to trade it in for adifferent experience.
Is there a way to sort ofembody both?
How do I embody both?

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
Can I Wait?
Can I embody?

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
both.
How would you embody both?

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
I don't know.
I don't have those skills.
Look, I'm not going to.
I know what I know and I knowwhat I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
You took that Logan Urie book and you read it right
and you got to that chapter thattalks about like the eight
questions's say.
You decide I love this guy.
It's so fun to like gettogether and be intimate and go
on adventures, but I also reallylike reading and maybe on
wednesdays I'm just gonna readand if he wants to come over you

(01:05:12):
can read in the other room orhe can go hang out with his
friends or whatever, but I'mstill going to make that time to
have for myself right, but it'snot all relationship or all
along right, but instead likehow do I bring the two together?
so my pendulum's more balancedand that's just like yep yeah,

(01:05:35):
you can.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
I guess you could have both if you have someone
that honors that and values thattoo, where you don't have to
feel fear when you're nottogether.
Right, yeah, too much silencein between or time off in

(01:06:00):
between.
There's that fear of what am Igoing to come back to?
Or if I come back to see themafter some time apart, are they
going to be cold?
Are they gonna?
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
It's it's hard to feel at peace when you're alone
or if you're dealing withsomeone who engages in jealousy
induction and tries to make youfeel insecure, like oh, they
could fall in love if I'm notkeeping their extension because
external validation is soimportant in there right, and so
, being with someone who's notlike that, you're going to feel

(01:06:29):
that like trust and calmness,hopefully in peace, so that you
can have your time alone verygood, yeah, ideally you say to
the person like I'm feeling,like I need some alone time, I
would love to just play videogames all night or go read or go
do something with mygirlfriends, and and then
they're curious and they're kindand they say oh, I didn't

(01:06:52):
realize you were missing out onsome of those things.
Which would you want to do thatevery Friday?
Do you miss your book club?
Yeah, okay.
Club, yeah, okay.
Here we solved a problem withcuriosity and kindness and
empathy that's a fantasticexample.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
How simple was that?
I love it.
Yeah, so I.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
I think it sounds like a lot of relearning, and
healing when you get out ofthese relationships is learning
what, what is possible, rightand what it looks like, because
some of us don't even know whatit looks like because we haven't
had it you know no differencebetween, like trying to learn it
for the first time and thenrelearn it, right, but that's

(01:07:34):
okay, because then, when you're,when you're learning these
things for the first time, youcultivate these skills to
articulate them from an adultvoice, and that's okay, because
then, when you're, when you'relearning these things for the
first time, you cultivate theseskills to articulate them from
an adult voice, and that'sleadership, right.
You get to help other peopleand and you get to be really
awake and present for anexperience some people might
have gone through osmosis andnever not really get as a human

(01:07:55):
right, right.
I mean when yeah, I'm thinkingabout another book that I think
would be good for readers toknow about if they really are
interested in this subject andthere's a researcher out of
Austin, texas, named KristenNess and she wrote a book called
Self-Compassion and when we getto the stage that you're

(01:08:16):
describing, where we're learningthese new skills and it's like
tiring sometimes, right, likeyou do kind of need to rest and
there's going to be moments oflike man, this isn't fair or
this is exhausting, or whateverit is how do we be consistently
kind to ourselves and justaccept that, like this is.

(01:08:38):
This is part of what I'mnavigating.
Parts of it are really good andfun and leadership skills and
you know all sorts of niceenergy and opportunity is going
to come to me as a result.
But then parts of it are tiring.
And when that comes, how do Ijust let myself rest and how do
I let myself recharge?
And I didn't talk about thisbefore, but when I do therapy

(01:09:01):
with people, a big thing that wework on is like routine
physical exercise making sureyou sleep, are you eating
healthy?
How does everything fittogether?
Are you having authenticrelationships with yourself,
with other people?
That's part of self-compassiontoo Just showing up and making
sure you have a really niceroutine.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Really taking care of yourself, giving yourself all
of those things you need.
I think sometimes it'ssurprising, if you take stock of
your life and realize all thethings you need, that you're not
providing for yourself right,and giving that to yourself.
I call it dating myself myself.
I thought about, like all thethings I get into, like when I'm

(01:09:43):
in love with someone, like I'mall in and I'll like help them
with their skin routine, I'lllike do all if they need
something.
You know I want to nurture themand give them the things they
need.
But then I look at myself andI'm like, oh, you know, I
haven't bathed in this many days, or I need this vitamin or this
thing and or to get my hairdone, but I haven't done it

(01:10:03):
because I'm busy taking care ofsomeone else, and so spending a
year and a half like givingmyself all of it, I'm like, oh,
I need that, I'm just going toget for myself and that just
give it to myself, right.
And it's pretty amazing.
I got a lot of things because Iwasn't giving it to someone
else.
You know, I was like dang, I'veupgraded this and that, you

(01:10:26):
know, and it feels reallyamazing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
Good, and then hopefully, as you're navigating
dating, you know you're able tofind partners that can already
do that for themselves.
Yes, and that'd be nice.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Yeah, and then it's just enjoyable when you do it
for one another.
I love that.
So, look, guys, this has givenyou, like, a lot of information.
You know what to look for inyour relationships to identify
if perhaps you're in anarcissistic relationship or
just a relationship with someonewho's just not healthy for you

(01:11:00):
for whatever reason at this time, but some really good
identifiers the sign that youknow you got to get out.
We've given you that Some greatjumping off points for
embarking on your healingjourney, and some books as well.
If you could, as we close thisout, would you give my listeners

(01:11:22):
three things if they havelistened to this and they're
like, yeah, I need to get out orI'm healing from this three
things they could start doingtonight to start really moving
in the direction of healing.
And then information on wherethey can find you, all the
places and get in touch with youif they want to work with you
directly or learn more about you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:45):
So if you wanted to reach out to me personally,
you're welcome to go to mywebsite.
It's sonnetdaymontcom.
It's just my first and lastname, which should be listed
anywhere that you're gettingaccess to this podcast.
And then, if you wanted threethings that you could just start
doing right now, I wouldrecommend starting off by maybe

(01:12:07):
ordering a book or two.
I would order that Getting Pastyour Breakup book by Susan
Elliott so that you can, ifyou're not ready to dive into
that inventory, just sort ofread a little bit about it.
And I would recommend going tothe doctor and checking on your
physical health, getting bloodwork, making an appointment and
figuring out what you're goingto do to start caring for your

(01:12:29):
body, because long term stresslike that is really hard.
And finally, you know you'rewelcome to go to my website.
I'll give you a recommendationif I'm not able to see you in my
practice.
Or you could go on PsychologyToday and just start looking for
therapists that can work withyou.
I, as a therapist, love doingin-person therapy.

(01:12:50):
If you can find someone inperson, if there's ever a time
in your life to like invest inthat, this would be it.
And you know, just be reallykind to yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
Consistently.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
I love that.
I love that the idea of beingconsistently kind to yourself
and loving yourself in that way,right.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
Yeah, yeah.
In early days it's hard.
You, you get it going and youget better and better at it as
time goes, and then just findingpeople that have been through
it and are healthy thank you somuch.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
This has been a really wonderful conversation.
I feel like I've myself gottensome great takeaways that will
be useful on my own journey anddating in the future or just
being in connection with peoplein the future, and I think there
are just so many people outthere who are going to listen to
this and feel less alone andfeel a little bit more confident

(01:13:52):
in wherever they are on thatpath and whether they're in
relationship or exiting andtrying to heal.
So check her website out,listeners, and if you have
questions or comments, you knowwhat to do.
If you're on YouTube, scrolldown.
You can leave a question orcomment in the comment section
below this video.
Of course, if you are alistener, you are welcome to

(01:14:15):
email me at Annette atTalkSexWithAnnettecom, and I
will get the question to theperson it needs to go to or I'll
try to get an answer for you.
You can also scroll down andclick on my speak pipe and leave
me a voicemail.
So until next time, listeners,I will see you in the locker
room.
Cheers.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
Do the sex?
Do the sex?

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
Ring loop.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}In a Relationship with a Narcissist? Here's What You Need to Know!

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

All Episodes

In a Relationship with a Narcissist? Here's What You Need to Know!

Stuff You Should Know