April 30, 2025 • 64 mins
What if I told you virginity is a scam—and you’ve been sold a lie that’s screwing with your pleasure, your confidence, and maybe even your relationships? In this no-BS conversation with certified sexologist Dr. Susan Milstein, we unpack the toxic history of virginity, the science that debunks it, and the shame it’s still spreading in bedrooms everywhere. From the myth of the hymen to the double standards that teach women to expect pain instead of pleasure—we're ripping the covers off the kind of sex ed you should have gotten. Whether you're rethinking your own sexual story, parenting a teen, or just want to stop playing by patriarchal rules, this episode is your permission slip to rewrite the script—and claim your sexual debut on your own damn terms.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk, sex with Annette.
Topic is Virginity is a Scam andyou Deserve Better Sex Ed Than
(01:00):
that.
Let's talk about virginityfolks, that weird word that
somehow still holds weight insex ed classes Religious guilt
trips, hookup culture andwedding night expectations.
For some it's a badge of shame,for others it's a badge of
honor and for a whole lot of usit's just confusing as hell.
(01:22):
What is virginity really?
Is it a broken hymen, a penisentering a vagina?
Is it lost, stolen, given,taken, and why the hell are we
still using this word like it'sa moral checkpoint?
Today I'm joined by Dr SusanMilstein, a master's certified
health education specialist,certified sexologist and
(01:44):
longtime badass in the sex edworld.
She's the founder of MilsteinHealth Consulting, a co-host of
Unzipped Tapoos podcast andsomeone who's spent over 20
years helping people unlearnsexual shame and replace it with
knowledge, agency and pleasure.
This episode, it's not justabout the first time.
(02:07):
It's about what we weren't told, how those stories shaped us,
and what happens when we finallyreclaim the mic on our own
sexual stories.
So whether you're redefiningyour own past parenting a teen
or just realizing wait, thatwasn't even the kind of sex I
was hoping to have You're in theright place.
(02:29):
I am about to introduce my guestto you, but before we dive in,
I want to remind you you canfind me over on OnlyFans, where
I am posting my sex and intimacyhow-tos and demonstrations,
along with audio guidedself-pleasure meditations and
more, all designed to help youhave a more pleasure-filled
intimate life.
You can find me there with myhandle at TalkSexWithAnette, and
(02:50):
or you can find me on Substackdoing a lot of the same, and my
handle there is atTalkSexWithAnette as well.
You can always scroll down tothe notes below this episode and
find all of the links to allthe places you might want to
find me, but for right now Iwant to introduce the doctor to
you.
Can you tell my listeners?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
more about you, absolutely, and thank you for
having me here.
This is an incredibleexperience just to be on this
podcast and this episode, Ithink, is just from your
description it's going to befantastic.
So my name is Dr Sue Milstein.
I have a PhD in human sexualityeducation.
I have been working in academiafor a while.
I always hate to age myself,but, as you mentioned in the
(03:31):
intro, I am the founder and leadconsultant for Milstein Health
Consulting.
I've written textbooks on humansexuality, I've spoken about it
for people across the lifespan,so teens up to their 80s and I
am also the co-host of UnzippingTaboos, candid Conversations
About Sex, and I also doanonymous.
I answer questions that aresubmitted anonymously on sex, so
(03:53):
from anyone who's got access tothe internet.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So you're going to want to listen.
Also, I get to be a guest onher podcast, so a little pitch
for you to go over and check herout in advance and stay tuned
for me as one of her guests,which is really exciting.
So, folks, look, I like to tellyou to stay to the end of
episodes for takeaways, but thiswhole episode is going to be a
(04:19):
takeaway.
This is an important podcast,I'm going to say for everybody,
every gender, but I specificallywant to point out that for
girls women, people who identifyas women have vulvas.
This is going to be importantbecause a lot of our worth and a
lot of shame and stigmatism isplaced upon us.
(04:42):
Our value has been assessed byvirginity and purity for a long,
long time, where the historykind of around men and people
with penises is a little bitdifferent.
But also for my male listeners,this is going to help you look
at women yourself, sex andintimacy, in a new way.
This is a transformativeconversation, so I hope that
(05:04):
you'll stay to the end, just sothat you can learn all about
virginity, what it is, what itshould mean to you and how it
should guide you in your ownpleasure-filled intimate journey
with someone else.
So I'm ready to talk about sexand virginity.
How about you?
Let's talk about sex Drinks inhand.
(05:27):
Oh, where do we start with this?
So I'm going to start with justthe obvious question what is
virginity?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I have no idea.
No, I do.
That's a really horrible way tostart as an expert.
In our culture it tends to meanthat you have not had
penile-vaginal intercourse, butit's also sometimes that the
hymen hasn't broken.
It's also sometimes for somepeople it's specific to only
vaginal-penile intercourse, sothey'll say they're a virgin.
(05:58):
But maybe they're also a virginfor anal sex and oral sex.
And the problem is we kind ofuse that term and we never quite
define it for everybody.
Because if you're a woman who'sonly engaging in sex with a
woman, you'll theoretically be avirgin forever.
If we use that, vaginal penalintercourse as the definition,
Same thing with two men.
So the way most people see itin our country is that they
(06:22):
haven't engaged in penal vaginalintercourse.
But I don't think that'sinclusive enough and I don't
think it's something that reallyexplains what someone is or is
not doing.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Well, so I would ask this what does it even matter?
What is it a measure of?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
That's a better question, and I think for, for
and I'm glad you brought up thegender piece really early what
we tend to see is that for womenwho, for people who have vulvas
, people who identify as female,it's this thing that they're
supposed to hold on to andthey're supposed to kind of
gatekeep power to their body,and then, but once they lose
(07:01):
their virginity, they've givenaway that power somehow, which I
still don't completelyunderstand.
And so I think that for somepeople, it's a way of saying I'm
pure or I haven't done thesethings which are bad, even
though we don't really definewhat bad is, think people want
to know, because they want toknow people's experience, which,
(07:24):
in my mind, you should beasking people about their
experiences instead of usingthis label that comes with so
much baggage.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Right, because if your virginity was based on the
hymen which is correct me if I'mwrong it is a very thin
membrane of skin that exists,and also correct me if I'm wrong
here, but I don't some peopleare born without it even Isn't
that correct?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
It could be partially broken, it could be missing.
It can break for so manyreasons other than penetrative
intercourse.
So you are correct, and forsome people it's always been not
fully intact, right?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
So if we're basing virginity upon that being broken
, some of us are born notvirgins anyway.
Right?
Because it is true that?
Or or our bicycles took awayour virginity, because sometimes
doing things like ridingbicycles or our tampon was our
(08:24):
first sex partner.
All of those things could breaka hymen, correct?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Less likely to see with the tampon, because I don't
want to freak out anyone whomight be listening.
I think the tampons are goingto steal their virginity, though
there's a whole lot of problemswith that phrase.
It's less likely with tampons,but it's possible, sure Possible
with a sex toy.
It's possible with all sorts ofthings.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, the point being , if we are going to call your
virginity that little piece ofskin and what happens with it,
then obviously that'sproblematic in its own right
Right, and I think that clearlythere is some worth tied to the
idea of virginity and we've usedhistorically that, that little
(09:11):
piece of skin, as sort of thecheck for your worth, and that
hasn't been stolen someone tohave it.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
There's an interesting thing.
I've had conversations withstudents where they talk about
losing their virginity by choice, because when they lost their
virginity it was not somethingthey had control over, and so
for them, they may have met thatdefinition of losing their
virginity, but it wasn't theirdecision, and so even that kind
of term is nuanced.
But yeah, it's this idea ofhave you given it away?
(09:45):
Do you still have that worth?
For men, there's nothing tobreak.
There's not a membrane aroundthe penis that we can say this
is broken, now you're no longera virgin.
So the fact that the definitionis so different for the genders
is kind of interesting andfrustrating.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
It is interesting because it sounds to me like
virginity, as it's used todescribe a woman or a girl is
that it's this thing that shehas in her body that, once given
away, devalues her, except for,perhaps, to the person who now
(10:22):
has taken her virginity.
But her value to everybody elsegoes down.
Now, with men, virginity istotally different.
A it's not measurable otherthan inexperienced, and men feel
quite shamed when they takelonger, to quote, lose their
(10:44):
virginity or gain the experienceof having been with a woman.
And once they lose theirvirginity, their value goes up
to all women because now theyare experienced.
Seed flingers, spurters,sprayers, sprayers, probably.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, I don't know.
I like frayers.
I like frayers, yeah, but it'sthis idea that, and we take men
at their word, right?
We don't, we don't.
There's no proof.
Like most women, when they,when their hymen breaks,
there'll be some blood and somepain For men.
The only way we're really goingto know if they're no longer
virgins is we take them at theirword, but we never trust.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
We rarely trust women when they just tell us their
experiences, which is anotherlayer of that gender discrepancy
.
Right, I mean it's sofrustrating to talk about.
We're going to talk about itbecause it's good for us.
Yeah, I mean it is interesting.
It's a measure of experiencefor men and has this sort of
elevating effect.
We take them at their word.
And I remember losing myvirginity many a year ago and I
(11:59):
did not bleed, so I have toassume that mine was broken and
it did hurt.
I was like oh, this is awful.
It did hurt but I didn't bleed.
And I know in some culturesthat if you were to have sex for
the first time and the womandidn't bleed, they would assume
I mean like that could be a lifeor death situation for her yes,
(12:20):
quite literally, they will askto see the sheet that has the
blood to prove that she's avirgin.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And in some of those cultures and we I mean there are
definitely parts of the USwhere we see that in the culture
but in some of those cultureswhere it's much more common, we
have heard about young girlshaving essentially surgery done
to insert a membrane of skin.
So there will be something.
So she will not be threatenedwith violence, she will not be
(12:44):
disowned, she will not bepunished for this thing that she
had no control over if herhymen had already broken.
So in some cultures it truly isa matter of life and death.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Right, that's terrible.
So it does sound like theconcept of virginity is mostly a
social construct.
Is what it's all coming down to, guys.
That's why I say it's nothing,it's nothing.
If you've been on this podcastlistening to me long enough, I
(13:13):
don't care what gender you are.
What you've learned is sex isnot what we've been taught.
It's not P and V.
I mean, you can do it that way.
You can stick it in, thrustaway and be done.
But if that's what's happeningin your sex life, it's probably
why no one wants to fuck you andno one's satisfied.
(13:34):
But sex really is.
It can start when you're noteven together.
You can have phone sex.
You can have emotional sex.
We do it all the time we startaffairs and we aren't even
together and that the way inwhich we interact and we talk
about sex to each other to geteach other riled up that can be
considered sex.
So technically you can do thathave some phone sex and lose
(13:57):
your virginity, if we want totalk about virginity as being a
sex-based thing.
But that's not really how it'sused in our society, right?
It's more.
We're using the body andlooking for physical signs so we
can judge someone's worth.
Whether that is for men, makingthem more manly, or women,
devaluing them.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
We also use it.
Yes to all of that.
We also use it as a way ofscaring women.
We tell them, like if the firsttime you have sex when you lose
your virginity, it's going tohurt, you're not going to enjoy
it, which sets a really low barfor her partner, because he
doesn't have to be good at it,because he's already expected
not to be, and it makes sex thisterrifying thing.
(14:39):
And unfortunately, we live in aculture that we try to scare
people not everyone, not you andI but we try to scare people
into staying away from sex, andso if we can't convince them not
to, then we're going to scarethem.
Ladies, when you have sex,don't expect to enjoy it, which
also ties into this idea of goodgirls don't enjoy it.
(14:59):
So don't expect to enjoy it, ohyeah, and it's going to hurt
and it's going to be somethingyou never want to do again.
I mean, we're setting this barto take away women's pleasure
before they've even engaged inanything which is also part of
the problem.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
I mean, I've already told you guys my theory on that.
Sexually empowered women arepowerful women.
They're safer women.
We can control a lot.
It makes sense for our societyto want to take that power away
from us, oppress us and make usfeel small and powerless.
Right?
Imagine what it would be likeif we ran the world right now,
(15:39):
just saying We'd do that asanother law of the south.
Yes, I'm just saying the powerof the pussy really pays off for
everybody in the end, justsaying We'd do that as another
episode.
Yes, we'd be.
I'm just saying the power ofthe pussy really pays off for
everybody in the end.
If you guys would just stoptrying to oppress it, right.
But no, I mean I say sexuallyembodied is that we are more
(16:13):
powerful, we stand in our power,more and more confident and
safer and stronger when wearen't separated from that part
of us.
And it is interesting to me andhere's why I think you know
guys listening to this might belike well, how does this benefit
me?
I like that it makes me likecooler the more I get to have
(16:33):
sex and that it keeps women kindof off their high horses if it
devalues them.
But look, there is a payoff foreveryone in my opinion, and I'd
love to hear your opinion, soyou and I could agree that the
vast majority of people are nothappy about the sex they're
(16:55):
having in their life.
The vast majority of peoplearen't happy about the
relationships they're having.
We talk about the lonelinessepidemic, with men not having
sex anymore.
I'll just go have sex with mybesties.
I mean, we already like, cuddleand love each other.
(17:15):
What's the difference?
You know what I mean?
Women find a different way tokind of fill that missing place.
And if you can look at women ina different way and see her
sexual experience as also abonus, as like, oh, she has more
experience now.
Now she's going to be able tohave more pleasure with me.
(17:37):
Now, those little dirtythoughts you have in your mind
that you won't tell anyone about.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
but I know they're there.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You confess them to me.
I see them all in my DMs.
Now you have a partner whoknows how to talk about sex, who
has done some of those things,and she's excited to be with you
and experiment.
It does not benefit you to havewomen who are afraid of sex,
who shy away from it, whosebodies are shut down because
(18:07):
they're being told it's wrong.
That's why you're not havingthe sex you want.
So if you shift the way youkind of look at this, it's going
to benefit you, right?
Am I right?
Please tell me.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You think so, oh, I, yeah, I agree with everything
you said and I think it's likenot being male.
I can't really get into thatmale perspective.
But to me, I would think that Iwould want a partner who could
be like hey, here's what I like,here's what I don't like and
here's what I've always wantedto try and what turns you on.
But when we don't shame womenand we allow women to have these
(18:38):
experiences, it's like you saidthey communicate better, and
communication for me, likethat's the first level of turn
on.
You can have that conversation,whether it's face to face or by
text or however you're doing it.
But to have a partner who couldbe like yes, this is what I like
, like, let's skip this, thisand this, let's try that, that
and that, and let's see whathappens, I would want a partner
(18:59):
who knows what they want andknows how to express it, and can
also express when they don'tlike something, because I
wouldn't want to be doingsomething with a partner that
are not comfortable with.
And when we tell women from thebeginning that this isn't
something you're supposed toenjoy, you're not supposed to
like it, don't just lay thereand get it over with, they don't
learn how to say, wait, I don'tlike this, or wait I don't,
(19:22):
this doesn't feel right or thisdoesn't feel comfortable.
To me, a partner is someonewho's truly that a partner,
someone who's in it with me, andif there's that power imbalance
, you can't ever have thatpartner you want Right.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I would like to say this I think that body count is
sort of the modern dayequivalent to virginity.
I hate that word with a passion.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, body count.
Oh, I know, I saw your reactionman.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
You said you're from New York, right, I am Okay.
If you guys are only listening,maybe head over to body count.
Oh, I know, I saw your reactionman.
You said you're from new yorkright is I am okay, because you
could.
If you guys are only listening,maybe head over to the the
youtube.
There's some.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
There's some new york attitude yeah, it's funny
because when I first heard theword body count because I'm on
the older side I remember theband I used to with the band
body count, so I always on theolder side.
I remember the band I used towith the band body count, so I
always hear that playing in myhead.
But my students are like theyjust look at me funny.
I hate the term body countbecause there's, there's it's
(20:21):
the same thing, it's a genderterm, it's it's shame and
stigmar for women.
Shame and stigma for women iftheir numbers are too high and
if you're just listening,there's a lot of air quotes on
my end but for men it's like wedon't really like oh, you've got
a cool body count.
But what drives me nuts is thatwhen I talk to teenagers and
people in their 20s and 30s,they hate the term too, but they
(20:44):
use it all the time.
And it goes back to yourquestion from the beginning,
which was why do we care?
If I care about sexual risk,then I don't care how many
people maybe you've been with inyour lifetime, but I'd like to
know how many people you've beenwith in the recent past,
especially from an SDI, sexualhealth perspective.
But I don't think I need toknow every single human you've
(21:06):
been with.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
And also I want to let's just address the SDI thing
.
If you look at the studies,people who are polyamorous, so
have multiple partners.
People in the sex industry tendto have a lower SDI case and
risk because A they're sexpositive, they're having the
(21:30):
conversations they need to behaving, they are going and
getting tested, they know abouthow to keep themselves safe,
they're having the conversationsthey need to be having, they
are going and getting tested,they know about how to keep
themselves safe.
They know all the differentways, not just condoms.
There are a lot of differentways.
Where the rates of STIs reallyget high are infidelity in
monogamous looking relationshipsin marriages, right?
(21:51):
In relationships with peoplewho seem to have low body count,
right.
It's not about the number ofpeople, it's about the
communication and the practices,the safer sex practices and
that kind of thing.
And I think body count is justusing STIs as an excuse to call
(22:16):
body count a thing.
It's just again, it's just away to try and control the
narrative people I've been withrecently.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Do you want to know if I've been tested recently?
Do you want to know if I'vebeen sexually active recently or
ever, if we're taking it backto virginity?
But that also assumes thatpeople are capable of having
those conversations and we havehorrible sex ed in this country
and people never learn how tocommunicate this.
Not that that's an excuse, butthey never learned how to have
these conversations, so they'rereally awkward no-transcript.
(23:17):
And there's a lot of things thatI do that are not related to
sex, that are ridiculouslypleasurable, and I don't count
those experiences, because whyshould I so?
Just behind that whole conceptof body count is again this idea
that there's value.
There's somehow a hidden value.
It's important enough that youshould have taken note.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Right, oh, I mean.
So this brings us to the ideaof your sexual value, and I'm
talking about it to everyone.
It can be given or taken awayor affected in some way.
That your value as a person aswell as a sexual being can be
(23:59):
given, taken, diminished orbuilt by a sexual activity with
somebody, like by giving Steve ablowjob in the bathroom after a
party.
Somehow you're going to wake upand be less of a person the
next day, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Which is 100% not true.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
It's crazy, I mean.
That effect can only happen ifyou decide that's how you're
going to feel about yourself.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
And I mean, unfortunately, we also get it
from the people around us.
I mean, this is you know?
So if you go into the bathroomor the closet or the wherever
with Steve afterwards and yougive him a blow, or don't you
just disappear for a while, thenby the time you get up the next
day and check your phone,you've already been branded and
that's, and so that could bereally hard and I I know this
(24:51):
especially for talking to peoplewho are getting back into the
dating world after losingpartners to divorce and or death
.
It's this idea of, well, peopleare going to assume things
about me and and we do live in aculture that that does push
that, and it can be hard to belike, no, I don't care when
everyone around you is brandingyou.
So it can be hard to kind offight those ideas that exist.
(25:14):
But we're only going to do itif we start doing it.
We're only going to do it if westart having these conversations
.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Right, I'm going to share a story time because it's
interesting.
This is a story that has comeback to me in my mind again and
again and again, mostly becauseit wasn't something that
happened when I was really young.
I mean, compared to how'tsomething that happened when I
was really young, I meancompared to how old I am now.
I was really young, but I musthave been in my 20s.
(25:41):
It was right before I gotpregnant with my first child and
I was single.
I had just graduated collegeand moved to Seattle.
I was living with one of mysisters and it was 4th of July
and I went to a 4th of Julyparty with my oldest sister to
(26:02):
one of her friends' house.
It was a man who was puttingthis party on and my sister had
dated him at one point in timemany years prior, and now my
sister is engaged.
Anyways, we go to this party.
This guy is clearly interestedin me, like he is hitting on me.
He's, you know, and I'm new onscene, I don't know everybody,
(26:23):
any of that stuff, but he's, youknow, aggressively coming after
me and she kind of corners meat one point and she says don't
do anything with him, likeclearly it was a boundary for
her.
She was uncomfortable with theidea of someone she had dated
being interested in her youngersister.
And I wasn't.
And I was like that's cool,that's cool, we had all been
drinking, we went and saw thefireworks.
We come back, we're all alittle bit drunk.
(26:44):
I go to go to the bathroom and Ishut the door and right as I
shut the door, this guy who ownsthe house comes bursting into
the bathroom.
I was drunk but I had thesmarts enough to be like, what
are you doing?
And he was, you know, kind ofswaying and trying to be
charming and I like jumped intothe shower.
It was a bathtub with a showercurtain because he starts to
(27:05):
whip himself out and I pull itclosed to create a block between
the two of us.
Well, that was enough to kindof snap him to and afterwards he
gets done and walks out.
I go to the bathroom and I'mkind of like, oh, that was so
uncomfortable, walk out of thebathroom.
The whole room is full of peopleare looking at me and my sister
(27:27):
would not talk to me until dayslater and she like went off on
me.
Several people I know severalpeople were like shaking their
head at me and when I finallytalked to her, she was very
angry about the fact that I hadflirted with him, that he had
gone in the bathroom and donesomething with me, and I said I
(27:49):
didn't do anything.
I told her exactly whathappened and then I asked her
I'm like, did you, did you sayanything to him about it?
No one ever talked to him aboutit.
No one ever got mad at himabout it.
They were all peachy keen.
He did not feel any heat fromthat, you know, and and that
(28:10):
just this whole conversationreminds me of that he was still
like top dog and look at himlike a young girl.
Right, sisters and then me, Iwas definitely did not feel
welcome around.
None of them treated me kind ofthe same again afterwards,
right, that stigma had stuck.
And one thing that I've learnedfrom that because you were
(28:30):
talking about how people willbrand you and look at you
differently and I'm no MelRobbins, but fucking let them.
And what I've learned from itis the minute someone does
something like that to me, theyaren't welcome to be close to me
anymore.
I only surround myself bypeople who see my worth, back it
(28:50):
up and stand by me, and if thatmeans I have a tiny circle, so
be it.
Unfortunately, at that time,kind of like you were talking, I
didn't have the resources orthe knowledge to do, I was I'm
proud of myself because I doremember saying well, did you
talk to him about it?
And but I didn't.
You know, I still felt shamed,I felt smaller, I felt gross, I
(29:14):
felt like you know the badsister, I felt like the black,
you know all of those things.
But I hope, if you're listeningto this and this story
resonates with you, fuck them.
Let them think that.
Hold your head high and keepdoing your shit Right and keep
doing your shit right.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah.
So, first of all, I'm sorrythat happened to you, but I want
to go back to something yousaid which was very telling,
where you said that your sistergot mad at you for him going
into the bathroom.
So now, not only are youresponsible for whatever
happened in the bathroom, youwere responsible for a grown man
making the decision to walkinto a bathroom that a girl was
in, or anyone, I mean, itdoesn't really matter.
(29:54):
And so it really just shines alight on how much women are
supposed to be like, how muchwe're supposed to control the
situation, when all you can dois control you.
You can't control what anotherhuman being is doing, and yet
we're expected to do that.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
And even in a situation like that we're
talking about, like our worthbeing either added to or taken
away by sexual acts or presumedsexual acts, for me my worth
came down, my self-respect camedown in everybody else's eyes
and, frankly, in mine I rememberthe shame like clear as day,
but his, at the very least,stayed the same.
(30:31):
You know, and, and that kind ofblows my mind, it's the same
thing.
It's the same thing as thisidea of purity and virginity,
and experience versus lack ofexperience.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
And how we view it just so differently for the
genders, and how, again, we makewomen responsible for not just
themselves but for what'shappening to them.
When we tell them hey, when youlose your virginity, like it's
something to lose, like it'shere's something I'm giving you,
when you lose your virginity,it's going to suck, it's going
to hurt and you're going to hateevery second of it and you're
(31:08):
totally responsible for whatpeople think about you
afterwards.
That's a lot.
I can understand why somepeople would want to avoid that,
because that sounds likesomething I would want to avoid
if I was younger, right?
Speaker 1 (31:19):
So have we even been able to answer?
What the fuck?
Virginity?
It's just an idea and a socialcontrol, and if y'all care about
the hymen and the bleeding andI guess, go for it.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
But the only reason I think someone would care if
they're I'm thinking about.
I'm trying to find a positive.
I do actually have some goodnews about this, but one of the
things like when I talk to youngmen there's an opportunity for
us to educate them.
Yes, you may want to ask ifit's your partner's first time,
so you can think about how tomake it more pleasurable by
(31:55):
using lube and by taking yourtime and by communicating
instead of just thrust, thrust,we're done.
There's an opportunity to makemen responsible for making that.
You know, making that firsttime as pleasurable as possible.
That's a lot to put on men,though.
They're just like why do?
Why do I have to figure out howto make my partner feel good?
Why can't I just do the thing Ido?
(32:16):
Well, there's a great place foreducation there.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
That's an interesting idea, though.
Let's get creative with it.
I mean, I'm a woman ofexperience when it comes to
different sexual things.
I'm just saying, and I'm proudof it I like sex and I like
doing sex and experimenting.
I like doing sex andexperimenting.
It is interesting, though,because when I have a new
(32:40):
partner, oftentimes there areareas in which I am more
experienced and it can be reallysexy, exciting and fun to be
someone that gets to introducesomeone to something else that's
going to feel good or has thepotential for that, and to have
that experience together likehaving someone's first time
(33:03):
doing something together isbonding.
It's vulnerable, it has its ownbeautiful sexiness to it.
It's an opportunity to createsomething incredible with
someone you know, and so, if welooked at it more like this,
there's responsibility to it todo it safely, to make it
(33:24):
pleasurable, make sure you knowso, for instance, if it's butt
stuff, you've got lube andyou're being gentle and asking
consent all the way.
If it's, you know, I don't know, some people haven't had Bdsm
experience or spankingexperiences or whatever
different kind of toys orthreesomes like doing it in a
way that.
So here's this adventure we'regonna do together.
(33:47):
Let's go get the outfits andthe tools and and have it be
this beautiful thing.
And it can be this because youwere, you had talked about
before.
You know.
Anal sex virginity, that is athing.
Oral sex virginity, it is athing.
If you can go into the idea ofvirginity just being the first
(34:07):
time and have it be this reallyexciting, beautiful thing, then
that's fun.
It never takes away, it alwaysadds to someone's life
experience, right?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yes.
And how much better would thatbe if your partner was like
enjoying it, enjoying it andrelaxed and not tight like not
just tight like vagina tight,but like tight like their body
was tight and tense becausethey're fearful of so much pain.
I don't know, there may be somepeople who get off on that, but
I would think you'd want apartner who is like into it and
(34:40):
actively.
Yes, let's keep going, andthere's an opportunity to make
that.
Yes, it may hurt a little, butthere's an opportunity to reduce
that and make this reallybeautiful experience.
That's not something to beashamed of.
And then we're giving women theright to enjoy sex, and I'm not
really sure our culture is 100%behind that.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
yet Well right, I think the idea of virginity goes
hand in hand with trying tomake sure women also don't think
sex is too enjoyable and don'twant to do it with too many
people and just want to do it tomake babies, which there seems
to be a big agenda for babymaking in our country right now.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Absolutely a big agenda for baby making in our
country right now.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
That's weird, Just saying.
And if you think it hurts tohave a cock go in your vagina,
let me tell you a giant babyhead coming out hurts way worse,
oh yeah.
But I do have good news.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yes, I want your good news.
Okay, so the good news is thisnext generation, like the young
one, like the late teens, early20s, they are starting to
rewrite the story a little bit.
So this concept of virginityand I get the idea that you want
to mark it and the term I'veheard sometimes, instead of
using virginity as your sexualdebut, but that's just.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I know I'm like all right I like it.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
To me that feels very like you should have a dress
and like an outfit, but it'smore positive.
Sexual debut is like your firsttime and this is fantastic.
My students won't buy that term.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I love that.
Then you can even have sexualdebut parties.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Right, you could have a whole, yeah, it could be a
whole thing.
To me it's just yeah, that termalways, but it sits better than
the term virginity, because youdon't lose a debut, you gain
always but it sits better thanthe term virginity, because you
don't lose a debut a debut, you,you gain.
Yeah, I like that.
I like, I love that term.
But what my students?
So we talk about this a lot andwhat my students are saying is
that now, with their generation,when people are starting rumors
(36:28):
oh well, you, steve, becausethat was the example you used
you know you and steve did thisthat instead of just being
shamed about it being like yeahand he, yeah, we had sex and it
was like two seconds, you didn'tknow what a clit was and like
really weaponizing it in a waythat I've never seen women take
power before.
The other thing is is thatvirginity does not seem at least
I mean there's.
(36:49):
There were some stories aboutthis in the Business Insider and
I'm hearing it from my students.
They're waiting longer to havesex and they're not as bothered.
So that whole idea of this push, it doesn't seem to be
happening right now with thekids in their late teens, so
maybe Waiting longer to have sex, or babies Both Sex they're
waiting longer to have sex.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah, and babies.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Or choosing not to have babies, which is irritating
some parts of the population,some people, some people, but
the teenagers themselves arewaiting longer to have sex.
They just don't see, they're notrushing into relationships.
They don't see that as theirvalue as much as I think our
generation and the generationsbetween us and them did.
So we are seeing a little bit,but that whole idea of oh,
(37:32):
you're going to start a rumorabout me and Steve, let me tell
you how small his cock was Notthat that's the defining thing
of men, but let me tell you howbad he was.
Let me tell you he was atwo-pump chump, Like really
weaponizing it back, and I don'tthink I've ever heard that from
women in their 30s, 40s and 50s.
Though, ladies, if you'relistening, own that, totally,
own that.
Rebrand that story.
(37:53):
Make it yours Right.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
That it's not something that diminishes you,
and I think that when all of thegenders have skin in the game
meaning if you're going to besexual with each other and then
use it to degrade the otherperson, know the script can be
flipped.
First of all, what is shitty,shitty, shitty way to experience
(38:18):
sex?
If you are going to have sex,do something sexual with someone
.
Make it an amazing thing.
Why are you weaponizing it Ifyour bros or your girlfriends
start teasing you about it?
Bros or your girlfriends startteasing you about it, turn to
(38:39):
them and just tell them shut thefuck up, you're just jealous.
I got to have some pleasure.
I hopefully got to have anorgasm.
Ladies, it may come slower foryou.
I wanted to make I know I'mbacktracking here, but we were
talking about the pain withlosing your virginity.
I am not the pain with thebreaking of the hymen and the
first time you experiencepenetration, whether with a cock
(38:59):
or whatever it may be.
Here's a little trick for theperson with the dick, like the
rhyme or the dildo or whatever.
Orgasms and pleasure releasechemicals that minimize pain,
maximize pleasure.
So if, before you do thepenetration, you have her in an
(39:23):
orgasmic or very pleasurablestate, or even have her having
orgasmed and then you do somepenetration, her experience of
pain is going to be far less.
She's also already going to bewet, hopefully lubed up.
It could be an incredibleexperience, and that little
discomfort she feels may bediminished to nothing or even be
(39:44):
perceived as somewhatpleasurable.
Just a suggestion.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Yeah, and it's a fantastic idea, and I talk about
with a lot of people how,especially those who have
chronic pain, that orgasm can bea great release, sometimes only
momentarily, but even if it's amomentary break from pain.
But what you just describedputs a lot of responsibility on
the person with the dick,because now they have to know
how to pleasure someone, whichsome men do Right, some men do
(40:14):
not, which some men do Right,some men do not.
But they have to figure out howto do that without penetration
all the way, if we're notbreaking the hymen yet, which
means they've got to figure outwhat parts of the body feel good
for their partner, and thattakes a lot of effort.
But that effort can be fun.
It can, it absolutely can.
We just have to figure out howto sell men on that idea.
Right, because they don't seemto get that.
It's not about their pleasure100% of the time.
(40:36):
It's supposed to be abouteveryone's pleasure.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Right.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
That's, as a culture, not what we usually focus on.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Well, see, when you're giving her pleasure, she
can give you a little pleasurePlus you, I don't know.
Look, I'm bisexual and anytimea woman gives me the opportunity
to touch her lady bits and playwith them, I recognize the
throne I'm getting to sit in.
For a moment.
I'm like I know that I am luckyto be here and I am going to
(41:04):
give it my all.
I get a real high off of it.
What's up?
Dudes Like why aren't yougetting a real high?
I mean I get, or I can actuallyfeel it's like an energetic
kind of orgasm from givingsomeone else pleasure, and
that's possible for all of us Ifyou can just slow your roll a
little bit and sit in that.
oh my God, I get to be heredoing this thing, I get to touch
(41:29):
this beautiful body, you know.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Where are they going to learn that?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
from Bisexual women.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Only Fans Channel.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Thank you.
A little boost, in fact.
In fact, I do teach fingeringand, like yoni, massage
techniques over there, so youcan switch it up and get her
there quicker, because peopleneed to learn how to do these
things and it's so much nicerwhen you've seen it in action.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
So but I think that's the problem.
If we're not talking about sexin school, which our sex ed is
abysmal and only going to getworse now, but if they're not
learning it from school, whichis fine, I'm not sure I would
have wanted to learn that inhigh school from my teacher here
.
So here's how you finger theway.
That would have been superawkward.
And then women aren't supposedto enjoy it and or they don't
have the language to explain toa partner.
(42:22):
I could see where partners likewell, where the hell am I
supposed to learn this?
I don't mean the bros aren'ttalking about it.
My female partners aren'texplaining what they want.
You're not going to see a lotof that in porn because that's
not what they focus on.
So in his defense he may belike yeah, I'd love to do some
of this, but I don't know how.
And again, annette's OnlyFanspage Exactly.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
You know, and I think it is interesting you bring up
and when we talk about sexeducation, the way in which you
are educated is for havingbabies.
We are not teachingpleasure-based sex ed and 99.9%
of the sex you're having is forpleasure.
(43:05):
So where do you go?
To be fair, most women don'tknow how to touch their own
vulvas.
Most women don't know thetechniques that I'm teaching.
You know over there and thatthere's so many different ways
you know.
How do we start teaching that ina way that our society accepts
(43:25):
or people feel comfortable?
I think the thing is you justhave to get comfortable with sex
so that our society can embraceit.
We're not going to becomfortable with sex if we are
devaluing people when they havesex for the first time, if we
are devaluing half of thepopulation as they gain
experience with sex.
I can't tell you how, sinceI've started this podcast, how
(43:49):
many people in comments or youknow in person people I knew who
have tried to like devalue mebased on the fact that I'm very
open about having experienceRight.
Or you know, when I talk abouthow many people I've had sex
with or the kinds of sex thatI've had and and I know they
feel they need that to feelcomfortable with themselves.
(44:09):
I don't.
I'm over here living my bestsexual life.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yep, that's what you're saying before I let them,
let them right, because the theother.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
The other thing is is people will judge you no matter
what you do.
So so let's say, you only havesex with one person.
I promise by the time you're atmy age, around you will be like
, oh, she's so unhappy.
I mean, you know, she's onlyever been with him.
She wouldn't even know if she'shaving good sex.
Yeah, she's not very.
I think she's asexual, she'snot very sexy.
(44:41):
That's probably why he looks atother women.
That is exactly the fuckingconversation that will happen.
You cannot win, so why not?
Speaker 2 (44:50):
make yourself happy.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah, exactly, I feel like what I'm taking from this
conversation is we're not goingto get rid of the concept of
virginity, but can we reframe itas something that could be this
fun experience or a positivethat brings people together and
opens up the sexual potentialfor the future?
Speaker 2 (45:23):
into my podcast homework for the rest of their
lives.
This is your homework.
I'm going to give you homeworkto work on this, and the reason
I think we have the potential isthat we talk about virginity in
so many other places Like thefirst time.
If you were to go do an extremesport, you might be like I'm a
virgin at this, and when you saythat it's not, oh well, you
shouldn't do this.
It's going to devalue you.
It's oh, you've never done thisbefore.
Let's talk about how to makethe experience great.
(45:44):
Why don't we do that first?
We're capable as a culture fortaking that idea of it's my
first time and making thatsomething fun and memorable and
exciting.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
We just don't do it with sex, so we just have to
figure out a way to shift thatinto the bedroom or wherever
you're having sex For someoneother than men, Because it's
already that way for guys, Likethey're getting the high five,
and even their fathers guys'fathers are like way to go champ
, and it's not that way forgirls at all.
(46:17):
I believe that that is shifting.
I don't think that I'd like tothink, and this isn't true
because I know I'm in a bubble.
I'm in a bubble, I'm in aliberal town.
I know that girls who areraised here hear a different
story, but I also know there's alot of purity culture out there
in conservative cities states,towns.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
I'm currently in the Northeast but before this I was
teaching in Texas and I hadstudents who were juniors and
seniors in college who would nothold hands with their partner
until they were married.
Like, forget sex, forgetkissing.
They weren't even holding hands, and this was in the last 10
years.
So that culture is alive andwell being in the Northeast.
(47:02):
I don't see it as much anymore,but it's definitely alive and
well in certain parts of thisculture.
What is a purity ball?
Everyone gets dressed up, theyget prom that level of dressed
up and it's young ladies.
It's only young ladies usually.
I mean there may be for littleboys, but I haven't heard about
them.
If that's happening, pleasesomeone correct me.
(47:22):
Young ladies are gettingdressed up.
Dad is getting dressed up, ordad figure, because sometimes
it's a stepdad or a guardian andthey are going to a dance and
they are celebrating that theirdaughter is pure and she's gonna
pledge to stay that way, andthere's often a purity ring
which is put on the girl's handas a mark of this pledge.
(47:45):
I'm watching your face.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Your face is exactly how I feel right now and there's
this they literally will take apledge to save themselves for
marriage and it's like they'repledging to their fathers that
their purity is like theirfathers, or something like that
is what they're saying.
Oh my god, if that is not likefather sexualizing his daughter,
you don't.
There is nothing that is.
(48:11):
That is the stuff that shows upin porn, like period.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, but it also, I mean it carries through.
When you think abouttraditional weddings, dad is
giving away the daughter likeshe's property and it's it's his
property.
Yeah, so I mean that's, yeah,it's an extension of it.
But yeah, we, we definitelyhave that idea and it's.
It's fascinating because whenwe study the few studies that
have been done on purity pledges, sure they don't work.
(48:38):
People don't usually keep tothem and then, when they don't,
there's this sense of shame andfailure and that's a lot for
anyone, let alone a younger girl.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Also, it severs the father-daughter relationship
because the daughter hasn'tupheld this pledge that she's.
We talk about consent.
The reason why there is an agefor when a girl can, or a boy
can, consent to sex is becausethere's a certain age at which
we do not have the ability tomake those kind of commitments
(49:14):
or make those kinds of choices.
Yet you're asking a girl thatyoung to make a pledge about sex
to her father.
It really gives me that givesme a big, big time ick.
And I have to imagine on somelevel that the girl feels the
sexualization happening inconnection with her father, like
(49:36):
in some sort of like.
I remember, because I rememberand you and I are the same age,
so I don't know how much you sawthis in your youth, but when I
started to become a young woman,I remember how, like my dad's,
like workmates and stuff likethat, would comment on oh,
you're a knockout, you're goingto be a knockout, every boy is
going to want you.
(49:56):
And I felt there was thatfeeling like something felt
inappropriate, at the very least.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Yet somehow acceptable, because no one was
calling them out.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Right, which this purity ball thing feels very
similar, like it has to give adaughter a little bit of an ick.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
Yeah, and then if she does break it and she doesn't
tell him she is now deceitfuland dishonest and like she's
hiding a piece of herselfbecause she doesn't want to
disappoint daddy?
Oh, that felt bad.
I didn't know it wasappropriate.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
When you, you're oh, it even shocked me a little bit,
but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
And so either she's honest and then she's got the
chance of like you're not mydaughter, you, you disappointed
me, you screwed up I can'tbelieve you would do this to me
as the father figure or she's tolie about it, in which case
she's withholding part of thispart of her experiences and
maintaining this lie, which isexhausting, this lie which is
(51:02):
exhausting.
And this is all while peopleare like 15, 16, 17, possibly
into their 20s, if that's howlong they're maintaining it.
That's a lot of pressure, likeyou said, for kids whose brains
haven't fully developed yet.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
It's a lot of pressure and it's a lot of very
strong messaging.
It's weird, Now that we're nearthe end of this conversation,
what I feel like because, again,I work with a lot of people
coaching people who are inrelationship and frustrated
because usually, usually thewoman in the relationship is
(51:34):
like not as interested in sex.
And I'm just listening to thisconversation on virginity
because it really is one of ourfirst a woman's, a girl's first
concept of sex.
Man, how can there be anexpectation that we would be,
sex, would come easy to us or beinteresting or something we
(51:55):
want to pursue, when it's soawful from the get-go, the
messaging is so bad from theget-go and what I hope, if
anything, that all of the peoplewho are listening to this
podcast and God, I wish I couldmake everybody listen to it.
This is helping you to step backa little bit and go oh shit.
(52:17):
No wonder she feels stressed bythis.
No wonder this feels like workto her.
No wonder it's not top of herlist of priorities when, from
day one, she's been told thatdoing this thing can ruin your
fucking life, it can hurt thepeople around you, it can
devalue your worth, it can likeall these things.
It's going to be painful.
(52:38):
So it's in your best interestto get on board and start
working on changing thismessaging and maybe go to your
partner if you are a man in thissituation and sit down and
start having the conversation.
Man, what was the first thingyou remember about sex?
What were you told aboutvirginity?
(52:59):
Why don't you start over withher, Say, hey, let's talk about
these things.
How can we like, rewrite thisand make sex fun for you again?
This would be a great startingpoint, right?
Speaker 2 (53:14):
It really would be.
It's unfortunately assumingwomen would be capable of having
that conversation without guilt.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
I think men might be more willing to have the
conversation than women.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Yeah, I think for men it would be a, because for them
it's like I want to be a goodpartner.
I'm just learning about this.
I had no clue, because howwould they know?
They've seen the messaging butthey didn't internalize it the
same way.
But for her, she has to say,wow, yeah, I was really fucked
up by what happened to me earlyin my life.
I don't even know how to beginto talk about that.
(53:48):
That can feel overwhelming, butit's baby steps and having a
part.
You know.
If you as a guy or a femalepartner or whoever, are showing
like, I want to know like, howdo we fix this?
How do we undo it?
We can't fix, it's not broken.
How do we help adjust thecourse that we're going on?
(54:11):
How do we make this better foryou?
You just made yourself thatmuch more attractive to your
partner because you want to bethere with them and that's a
huge step.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
It's interesting that , as you talk about that, I do
think about how most of theexperience I have right and most
of the people who come to me no, I work with a lot of women,
but I have more men and ashockingly large amount of men
and from all sorts ofbackgrounds.
Some are more conservative,some lean more liberal, but they
(54:39):
come to me and they're tryingto talk to their female partners
and they can't get hurt.
I hear this so much and, yeah,I think this conversation would
be a great starting point andapproaching with compassion and
with no expectation of itresulting in sex, but saying hey
(55:01):
, I'm curious about where didsex start for you?
Can we learn this about eachother and working from
compassion and a healingperspective?
Speaker 2 (55:19):
And letting it be a two-part conversation, because
while you are ready to have thatconversation, your partner may
not be.
That may be very blindsiding tothem, especially in a culture
where good girls don't talkabout sex.
And now you want me to talkabout my sexual experiences.
So, realizing that it may be ahey, I'd really love to talk to
you about this and your partnergoing, oh, okay, not now, I need
(55:39):
to think about this and beingwilling to rehab that
conversation.
Having conversation in twostages is better than having no
conversation.
So just realize it may.
Just because you are ready tohave the conversation doesn't
mean that she is.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Right, you could just send a link to this podcast and
sit and listen together.
Blame it on us.
Blame it on us.
Listen to these two crazyladies.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
New York and Portland .
It's going to be trouble.
Oh I, yeah.
So this I didn't know cominginto this conversation.
For me it felt cut and dry.
It was like virginity isn'tanything, let's just.
But the reality is it'ssomething, because it's always
been made into something, right.
So now the question isn't howdo we just teach people that
(56:28):
virginity isn't a real thing,but instead I think, like you're
talking about, we need to startreframing it.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
Okay, An opportunity to like try something new and
let's make it fun and positiveTry something new have a sexual
debut.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Look, there is a little rhyme too.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
Not good with the rhyming.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
I like no, but also I'm really loving this concept
of sexual debut, like that's awhole party.
Speaker 2 (56:55):
Right, it's just that word changes the whole
conversation.
Speaker 1 (57:00):
At what age did you make your sexual debut?
Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yeah, Right, like what age did you make your
sexual debut?
Oh well, I was like it's just amore positive term than
virginity.
When did you lose yourvirginity?
You're already telling me howI'm supposed to react to that.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
I think we can make this happen.
I believe in us All right, I'mon board.
I'm going to start askingpeople that, though.
I'm definitely going to startdoing that.
Speaker 2 (57:22):
All right listeners.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I want you to write in or leave a message, a
voicemail, about your sexualdebut.
When did you have yours?
I want to start there.
Do you have any final pieces ofadvice?
Some more homework to give mylisteners before we sign off.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Just start making the changes now and if you're a
parent, watch your languagebecause they're learning from
you.
But for those of you who aren'tparents or your kids are out of
the house, take that moment toreally think about kind of what
happened and don't think it'ssomething that needs to be fixed
.
You're not broken.
But let's think about how toreframe and make it better going
forward.
It can always get better goingforward, but it may take some
(58:03):
self-reflection and somevulnerability, so just be open
to it.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
Love that.
All right, tell my listeners,it's that time.
Where can they find you?
Speaker 2 (58:13):
Hey, so Unzipping Taboos, candid conversations
about sex.
We have new episodes that dropat 8 am Eastern time, because
East Coast, you can find theepisodes on Spotify and Apple
Podcasts and if you want to findme, I am on Instagram and
YouTube and Substack as HeyDrSue.
So H-E-Y-D-R-S-U-E.
Speaker 1 (58:32):
Perfect.
And you said they drop at 8 am.
On what day?
Wednesdays, wednesdays, perfect.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me and listeners, look
again, you know, if you have anyquestions, comments.
You want to give us a sexualdebut story.
(58:53):
If you are on my YouTubechannel, you can drop a comment
in the comment section below thevideo.
You can also email me atAnnette at TalkSexWithAnnettecom
.
You can scroll down to the linkbelow.
There's a speakpipe link to thelink below.
There's a speak pipe link.
You can leave me a voice noteon that.
So feel free to do that.
Or, you know, head over to mysocials and DM me.
So again, thank you so much forjoining me.
(59:15):
This was a great conversation.
I learned a lot.
Thank you for having me.
This was fantastic and mylisteners.
Until next time I'll see you inthe locker room.
Cheers Ring loop.
Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk, sex with Annette.
Topic is Virginity is a Scam andyou Deserve Better Sex Ed Than
(01:00):
that.
Let's talk about virginityfolks, that weird word that
somehow still holds weight insex ed classes Religious guilt
trips, hookup culture andwedding night expectations.
For some it's a badge of shame,for others it's a badge of
honor and for a whole lot of usit's just confusing as hell.
(01:22):
What is virginity really?
Is it a broken hymen, a penisentering a vagina?
Is it lost, stolen, given,taken, and why the hell are we
still using this word like it'sa moral checkpoint?
Today I'm joined by Dr SusanMilstein, a master's certified
health education specialist,certified sexologist and
(01:44):
longtime badass in the sex edworld.
She's the founder of MilsteinHealth Consulting, a co-host of
Unzipped Tapoos podcast andsomeone who's spent over 20
years helping people unlearnsexual shame and replace it with
knowledge, agency and pleasure.
This episode, it's not justabout the first time.
(02:07):
It's about what we weren't told, how those stories shaped us,
and what happens when we finallyreclaim the mic on our own
sexual stories.
So whether you're redefiningyour own past parenting a teen
or just realizing wait, thatwasn't even the kind of sex I
was hoping to have You're in theright place.
(02:29):
I am about to introduce my guestto you, but before we dive in,
I want to remind you you canfind me over on OnlyFans, where
I am posting my sex and intimacyhow-tos and demonstrations,
along with audio guidedself-pleasure meditations and
more, all designed to help youhave a more pleasure-filled
intimate life.
You can find me there with myhandle at TalkSexWithAnette, and
(02:50):
or you can find me on Substackdoing a lot of the same, and my
handle there is atTalkSexWithAnette as well.
You can always scroll down tothe notes below this episode and
find all of the links to allthe places you might want to
find me, but for right now Iwant to introduce the doctor to
you.
Can you tell my listeners?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
more about you, absolutely, and thank you for
having me here.
This is an incredibleexperience just to be on this
podcast and this episode, Ithink, is just from your
description it's going to befantastic.
So my name is Dr Sue Milstein.
I have a PhD in human sexualityeducation.
I have been working in academiafor a while.
I always hate to age myself,but, as you mentioned in the
(03:31):
intro, I am the founder and leadconsultant for Milstein Health
Consulting.
I've written textbooks on humansexuality, I've spoken about it
for people across the lifespan,so teens up to their 80s and I
am also the co-host of UnzippingTaboos, candid Conversations
About Sex, and I also doanonymous.
I answer questions that aresubmitted anonymously on sex, so
(03:53):
from anyone who's got access tothe internet.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So you're going to want to listen.
Also, I get to be a guest onher podcast, so a little pitch
for you to go over and check herout in advance and stay tuned
for me as one of her guests,which is really exciting.
So, folks, look, I like to tellyou to stay to the end of
episodes for takeaways, but thiswhole episode is going to be a
(04:19):
takeaway.
This is an important podcast,I'm going to say for everybody,
every gender, but I specificallywant to point out that for
girls women, people who identifyas women have vulvas.
This is going to be importantbecause a lot of our worth and a
lot of shame and stigmatism isplaced upon us.
(04:42):
Our value has been assessed byvirginity and purity for a long,
long time, where the historykind of around men and people
with penises is a little bitdifferent.
But also for my male listeners,this is going to help you look
at women yourself, sex andintimacy, in a new way.
This is a transformativeconversation, so I hope that
(05:04):
you'll stay to the end, just sothat you can learn all about
virginity, what it is, what itshould mean to you and how it
should guide you in your ownpleasure-filled intimate journey
with someone else.
So I'm ready to talk about sexand virginity.
How about you?
Let's talk about sex Drinks inhand.
(05:27):
Oh, where do we start with this?
So I'm going to start with justthe obvious question what is
virginity?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I have no idea.
No, I do.
That's a really horrible way tostart as an expert.
In our culture it tends to meanthat you have not had
penile-vaginal intercourse, butit's also sometimes that the
hymen hasn't broken.
It's also sometimes for somepeople it's specific to only
vaginal-penile intercourse, sothey'll say they're a virgin.
(05:58):
But maybe they're also a virginfor anal sex and oral sex.
And the problem is we kind ofuse that term and we never quite
define it for everybody.
Because if you're a woman who'sonly engaging in sex with a
woman, you'll theoretically be avirgin forever.
If we use that, vaginal penalintercourse as the definition,
Same thing with two men.
So the way most people see itin our country is that they
(06:22):
haven't engaged in penal vaginalintercourse.
But I don't think that'sinclusive enough and I don't
think it's something that reallyexplains what someone is or is
not doing.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Well, so I would ask this what does it even matter?
What is it a measure of?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
That's a better question, and I think for, for
and I'm glad you brought up thegender piece really early what
we tend to see is that for womenwho, for people who have vulvas
, people who identify as female,it's this thing that they're
supposed to hold on to andthey're supposed to kind of
gatekeep power to their body,and then, but once they lose
(07:01):
their virginity, they've givenaway that power somehow, which I
still don't completelyunderstand.
And so I think that for somepeople, it's a way of saying I'm
pure or I haven't done thesethings which are bad, even
though we don't really definewhat bad is, think people want
to know, because they want toknow people's experience, which,
(07:24):
in my mind, you should beasking people about their
experiences instead of usingthis label that comes with so
much baggage.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Right, because if your virginity was based on the
hymen which is correct me if I'mwrong it is a very thin
membrane of skin that exists,and also correct me if I'm wrong
here, but I don't some peopleare born without it even Isn't
that correct?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
It could be partially broken, it could be missing.
It can break for so manyreasons other than penetrative
intercourse.
So you are correct, and forsome people it's always been not
fully intact, right?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
So if we're basing virginity upon that being broken
, some of us are born notvirgins anyway.
Right?
Because it is true that?
Or or our bicycles took awayour virginity, because sometimes
doing things like ridingbicycles or our tampon was our
(08:24):
first sex partner.
All of those things could breaka hymen, correct?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Less likely to see with the tampon, because I don't
want to freak out anyone whomight be listening.
I think the tampons are goingto steal their virginity, though
there's a whole lot of problemswith that phrase.
It's less likely with tampons,but it's possible, sure Possible
with a sex toy.
It's possible with all sorts ofthings.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, the point being , if we are going to call your
virginity that little piece ofskin and what happens with it,
then obviously that'sproblematic in its own right
Right, and I think that clearlythere is some worth tied to the
idea of virginity and we've usedhistorically that, that little
(09:11):
piece of skin, as sort of thecheck for your worth, and that
hasn't been stolen someone tohave it.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
There's an interesting thing.
I've had conversations withstudents where they talk about
losing their virginity by choice, because when they lost their
virginity it was not somethingthey had control over, and so
for them, they may have met thatdefinition of losing their
virginity, but it wasn't theirdecision, and so even that kind
of term is nuanced.
But yeah, it's this idea ofhave you given it away?
(09:45):
Do you still have that worth?
For men, there's nothing tobreak.
There's not a membrane aroundthe penis that we can say this
is broken, now you're no longera virgin.
So the fact that the definitionis so different for the genders
is kind of interesting andfrustrating.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
It is interesting because it sounds to me like
virginity, as it's used todescribe a woman or a girl is
that it's this thing that shehas in her body that, once given
away, devalues her, except for,perhaps, to the person who now
(10:22):
has taken her virginity.
But her value to everybody elsegoes down.
Now, with men, virginity istotally different.
A it's not measurable otherthan inexperienced, and men feel
quite shamed when they takelonger, to quote, lose their
(10:44):
virginity or gain the experienceof having been with a woman.
And once they lose theirvirginity, their value goes up
to all women because now theyare experienced.
Seed flingers, spurters,sprayers, sprayers, probably.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, I don't know.
I like frayers.
I like frayers, yeah, but it'sthis idea that, and we take men
at their word, right?
We don't, we don't.
There's no proof.
Like most women, when they,when their hymen breaks,
there'll be some blood and somepain For men.
The only way we're really goingto know if they're no longer
virgins is we take them at theirword, but we never trust.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
We rarely trust women when they just tell us their
experiences, which is anotherlayer of that gender discrepancy
.
Right, I mean it's sofrustrating to talk about.
We're going to talk about itbecause it's good for us.
Yeah, I mean it is interesting.
It's a measure of experiencefor men and has this sort of
elevating effect.
We take them at their word.
And I remember losing myvirginity many a year ago and I
(11:59):
did not bleed, so I have toassume that mine was broken and
it did hurt.
I was like oh, this is awful.
It did hurt but I didn't bleed.
And I know in some culturesthat if you were to have sex for
the first time and the womandidn't bleed, they would assume
I mean like that could be a lifeor death situation for her yes,
(12:20):
quite literally, they will askto see the sheet that has the
blood to prove that she's avirgin.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And in some of those cultures and we I mean there are
definitely parts of the USwhere we see that in the culture
but in some of those cultureswhere it's much more common, we
have heard about young girlshaving essentially surgery done
to insert a membrane of skin.
So there will be something.
So she will not be threatenedwith violence, she will not be
(12:44):
disowned, she will not bepunished for this thing that she
had no control over if herhymen had already broken.
So in some cultures it truly isa matter of life and death.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Right, that's terrible.
So it does sound like theconcept of virginity is mostly a
social construct.
Is what it's all coming down to, guys.
That's why I say it's nothing,it's nothing.
If you've been on this podcastlistening to me long enough, I
(13:13):
don't care what gender you are.
What you've learned is sex isnot what we've been taught.
It's not P and V.
I mean, you can do it that way.
You can stick it in, thrustaway and be done.
But if that's what's happeningin your sex life, it's probably
why no one wants to fuck you andno one's satisfied.
(13:34):
But sex really is.
It can start when you're noteven together.
You can have phone sex.
You can have emotional sex.
We do it all the time we startaffairs and we aren't even
together and that the way inwhich we interact and we talk
about sex to each other to geteach other riled up that can be
considered sex.
So technically you can do thathave some phone sex and lose
(13:57):
your virginity, if we want totalk about virginity as being a
sex-based thing.
But that's not really how it'sused in our society, right?
It's more.
We're using the body andlooking for physical signs so we
can judge someone's worth.
Whether that is for men, makingthem more manly, or women,
devaluing them.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
We also use it.
Yes to all of that.
We also use it as a way ofscaring women.
We tell them, like if the firsttime you have sex when you lose
your virginity, it's going tohurt, you're not going to enjoy
it, which sets a really low barfor her partner, because he
doesn't have to be good at it,because he's already expected
not to be, and it makes sex thisterrifying thing.
(14:39):
And unfortunately, we live in aculture that we try to scare
people not everyone, not you andI but we try to scare people
into staying away from sex, andso if we can't convince them not
to, then we're going to scarethem.
Ladies, when you have sex,don't expect to enjoy it, which
also ties into this idea of goodgirls don't enjoy it.
(14:59):
So don't expect to enjoy it, ohyeah, and it's going to hurt
and it's going to be somethingyou never want to do again.
I mean, we're setting this barto take away women's pleasure
before they've even engaged inanything which is also part of
the problem.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
I mean, I've already told you guys my theory on that.
Sexually empowered women arepowerful women.
They're safer women.
We can control a lot.
It makes sense for our societyto want to take that power away
from us, oppress us and make usfeel small and powerless.
Right?
Imagine what it would be likeif we ran the world right now,
(15:39):
just saying We'd do that asanother law of the south.
Yes, I'm just saying the powerof the pussy really pays off for
everybody in the end, justsaying We'd do that as another
episode.
Yes, we'd be.
I'm just saying the power ofthe pussy really pays off for
everybody in the end.
If you guys would just stoptrying to oppress it, right.
But no, I mean I say sexuallyembodied is that we are more
(16:13):
powerful, we stand in our power,more and more confident and
safer and stronger when wearen't separated from that part
of us.
And it is interesting to me andhere's why I think you know
guys listening to this might belike well, how does this benefit
me?
I like that it makes me likecooler the more I get to have
(16:33):
sex and that it keeps women kindof off their high horses if it
devalues them.
But look, there is a payoff foreveryone in my opinion, and I'd
love to hear your opinion, soyou and I could agree that the
vast majority of people are nothappy about the sex they're
(16:55):
having in their life.
The vast majority of peoplearen't happy about the
relationships they're having.
We talk about the lonelinessepidemic, with men not having
sex anymore.
I'll just go have sex with mybesties.
I mean, we already like, cuddleand love each other.
(17:15):
What's the difference?
You know what I mean?
Women find a different way tokind of fill that missing place.
And if you can look at women ina different way and see her
sexual experience as also abonus, as like, oh, she has more
experience now.
Now she's going to be able tohave more pleasure with me.
(17:37):
Now, those little dirtythoughts you have in your mind
that you won't tell anyone about.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
but I know they're there.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You confess them to me.
I see them all in my DMs.
Now you have a partner whoknows how to talk about sex, who
has done some of those things,and she's excited to be with you
and experiment.
It does not benefit you to havewomen who are afraid of sex,
who shy away from it, whosebodies are shut down because
(18:07):
they're being told it's wrong.
That's why you're not havingthe sex you want.
So if you shift the way youkind of look at this, it's going
to benefit you, right?
Am I right?
Please tell me.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You think so, oh, I, yeah, I agree with everything
you said and I think it's likenot being male.
I can't really get into thatmale perspective.
But to me, I would think that Iwould want a partner who could
be like hey, here's what I like,here's what I don't like and
here's what I've always wantedto try and what turns you on.
But when we don't shame womenand we allow women to have these
(18:38):
experiences, it's like you saidthey communicate better, and
communication for me, likethat's the first level of turn
on.
You can have that conversation,whether it's face to face or by
text or however you're doing it.
But to have a partner who couldbe like yes, this is what I like
, like, let's skip this, thisand this, let's try that, that
and that, and let's see whathappens, I would want a partner
(18:59):
who knows what they want andknows how to express it, and can
also express when they don'tlike something, because I
wouldn't want to be doingsomething with a partner that
are not comfortable with.
And when we tell women from thebeginning that this isn't
something you're supposed toenjoy, you're not supposed to
like it, don't just lay thereand get it over with, they don't
learn how to say, wait, I don'tlike this, or wait I don't,
(19:22):
this doesn't feel right or thisdoesn't feel comfortable.
To me, a partner is someonewho's truly that a partner,
someone who's in it with me, andif there's that power imbalance
, you can't ever have thatpartner you want Right.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I would like to say this I think that body count is
sort of the modern dayequivalent to virginity.
I hate that word with a passion.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, body count.
Oh, I know, I saw your reactionman.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
You said you're from New York, right, I am Okay.
If you guys are only listening,maybe head over to body count.
Oh, I know, I saw your reactionman.
You said you're from new yorkright is I am okay, because you
could.
If you guys are only listening,maybe head over to the the
youtube.
There's some.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
There's some new york attitude yeah, it's funny
because when I first heard theword body count because I'm on
the older side I remember theband I used to with the band
body count, so I always on theolder side.
I remember the band I used towith the band body count, so I
always hear that playing in myhead.
But my students are like theyjust look at me funny.
I hate the term body countbecause there's, there's it's
(20:21):
the same thing, it's a genderterm, it's it's shame and
stigmar for women.
Shame and stigma for women iftheir numbers are too high and
if you're just listening,there's a lot of air quotes on
my end but for men it's like wedon't really like oh, you've got
a cool body count.
But what drives me nuts is thatwhen I talk to teenagers and
people in their 20s and 30s,they hate the term too, but they
(20:44):
use it all the time.
And it goes back to yourquestion from the beginning,
which was why do we care?
If I care about sexual risk,then I don't care how many
people maybe you've been with inyour lifetime, but I'd like to
know how many people you've beenwith in the recent past,
especially from an SDI, sexualhealth perspective.
But I don't think I need toknow every single human you've
(21:06):
been with.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
And also I want to let's just address the SDI thing
.
If you look at the studies,people who are polyamorous, so
have multiple partners.
People in the sex industry tendto have a lower SDI case and
risk because A they're sexpositive, they're having the
(21:30):
conversations they need to behaving, they are going and
getting tested, they know abouthow to keep themselves safe,
they're having the conversationsthey need to be having, they
are going and getting tested,they know about how to keep
themselves safe.
They know all the differentways, not just condoms.
There are a lot of differentways.
Where the rates of STIs reallyget high are infidelity in
monogamous looking relationshipsin marriages, right?
(21:51):
In relationships with peoplewho seem to have low body count,
right.
It's not about the number ofpeople, it's about the
communication and the practices,the safer sex practices and
that kind of thing.
And I think body count is justusing STIs as an excuse to call
(22:16):
body count a thing.
It's just again, it's just away to try and control the
narrative people I've been withrecently.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Do you want to know if I've been tested recently?
Do you want to know if I'vebeen sexually active recently or
ever, if we're taking it backto virginity?
But that also assumes thatpeople are capable of having
those conversations and we havehorrible sex ed in this country
and people never learn how tocommunicate this.
Not that that's an excuse, butthey never learned how to have
these conversations, so they'rereally awkward no-transcript.
(23:17):
And there's a lot of things thatI do that are not related to
sex, that are ridiculouslypleasurable, and I don't count
those experiences, because whyshould I so?
Just behind that whole conceptof body count is again this idea
that there's value.
There's somehow a hidden value.
It's important enough that youshould have taken note.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Right, oh, I mean.
So this brings us to the ideaof your sexual value, and I'm
talking about it to everyone.
It can be given or taken awayor affected in some way.
That your value as a person aswell as a sexual being can be
(23:59):
given, taken, diminished orbuilt by a sexual activity with
somebody, like by giving Steve ablowjob in the bathroom after a
party.
Somehow you're going to wake upand be less of a person the
next day, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Which is 100% not true.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
It's crazy, I mean.
That effect can only happen ifyou decide that's how you're
going to feel about yourself.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
And I mean, unfortunately, we also get it
from the people around us.
I mean, this is you know?
So if you go into the bathroomor the closet or the wherever
with Steve afterwards and yougive him a blow, or don't you
just disappear for a while, thenby the time you get up the next
day and check your phone,you've already been branded and
that's, and so that could bereally hard and I I know this
(24:51):
especially for talking to peoplewho are getting back into the
dating world after losingpartners to divorce and or death
.
It's this idea of, well, peopleare going to assume things
about me and and we do live in aculture that that does push
that, and it can be hard to belike, no, I don't care when
everyone around you is brandingyou.
So it can be hard to kind offight those ideas that exist.
(25:14):
But we're only going to do itif we start doing it.
We're only going to do it if westart having these conversations
.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Right, I'm going to share a story time because it's
interesting.
This is a story that has comeback to me in my mind again and
again and again, mostly becauseit wasn't something that
happened when I was really young.
I mean, compared to how'tsomething that happened when I
was really young, I meancompared to how old I am now.
I was really young, but I musthave been in my 20s.
(25:41):
It was right before I gotpregnant with my first child and
I was single.
I had just graduated collegeand moved to Seattle.
I was living with one of mysisters and it was 4th of July
and I went to a 4th of Julyparty with my oldest sister to
(26:02):
one of her friends' house.
It was a man who was puttingthis party on and my sister had
dated him at one point in timemany years prior, and now my
sister is engaged.
Anyways, we go to this party.
This guy is clearly interestedin me, like he is hitting on me.
He's, you know, and I'm new onscene, I don't know everybody,
(26:23):
any of that stuff, but he's, youknow, aggressively coming after
me and she kind of corners meat one point and she says don't
do anything with him, likeclearly it was a boundary for
her.
She was uncomfortable with theidea of someone she had dated
being interested in her youngersister.
And I wasn't.
And I was like that's cool,that's cool, we had all been
drinking, we went and saw thefireworks.
We come back, we're all alittle bit drunk.
(26:44):
I go to go to the bathroom and Ishut the door and right as I
shut the door, this guy who ownsthe house comes bursting into
the bathroom.
I was drunk but I had thesmarts enough to be like, what
are you doing?
And he was, you know, kind ofswaying and trying to be
charming and I like jumped intothe shower.
It was a bathtub with a showercurtain because he starts to
(27:05):
whip himself out and I pull itclosed to create a block between
the two of us.
Well, that was enough to kindof snap him to and afterwards he
gets done and walks out.
I go to the bathroom and I'mkind of like, oh, that was so
uncomfortable, walk out of thebathroom.
The whole room is full of peopleare looking at me and my sister
(27:27):
would not talk to me until dayslater and she like went off on
me.
Several people I know severalpeople were like shaking their
head at me and when I finallytalked to her, she was very
angry about the fact that I hadflirted with him, that he had
gone in the bathroom and donesomething with me, and I said I
(27:49):
didn't do anything.
I told her exactly whathappened and then I asked her
I'm like, did you, did you sayanything to him about it?
No one ever talked to him aboutit.
No one ever got mad at himabout it.
They were all peachy keen.
He did not feel any heat fromthat, you know, and and that
(28:10):
just this whole conversationreminds me of that he was still
like top dog and look at himlike a young girl.
Right, sisters and then me, Iwas definitely did not feel
welcome around.
None of them treated me kind ofthe same again afterwards,
right, that stigma had stuck.
And one thing that I've learnedfrom that because you were
(28:30):
talking about how people willbrand you and look at you
differently and I'm no MelRobbins, but fucking let them.
And what I've learned from itis the minute someone does
something like that to me, theyaren't welcome to be close to me
anymore.
I only surround myself bypeople who see my worth, back it
(28:50):
up and stand by me, and if thatmeans I have a tiny circle, so
be it.
Unfortunately, at that time,kind of like you were talking, I
didn't have the resources orthe knowledge to do, I was I'm
proud of myself because I doremember saying well, did you
talk to him about it?
And but I didn't.
You know, I still felt shamed,I felt smaller, I felt gross, I
(29:14):
felt like you know the badsister, I felt like the black,
you know all of those things.
But I hope, if you're listeningto this and this story
resonates with you, fuck them.
Let them think that.
Hold your head high and keepdoing your shit Right and keep
doing your shit right.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah.
So, first of all, I'm sorrythat happened to you, but I want
to go back to something yousaid which was very telling,
where you said that your sistergot mad at you for him going
into the bathroom.
So now, not only are youresponsible for whatever
happened in the bathroom, youwere responsible for a grown man
making the decision to walkinto a bathroom that a girl was
in, or anyone, I mean, itdoesn't really matter.
(29:54):
And so it really just shines alight on how much women are
supposed to be like, how muchwe're supposed to control the
situation, when all you can dois control you.
You can't control what anotherhuman being is doing, and yet
we're expected to do that.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
And even in a situation like that we're
talking about, like our worthbeing either added to or taken
away by sexual acts or presumedsexual acts, for me my worth
came down, my self-respect camedown in everybody else's eyes
and, frankly, in mine I rememberthe shame like clear as day,
but his, at the very least,stayed the same.
(30:31):
You know, and, and that kind ofblows my mind, it's the same
thing.
It's the same thing as thisidea of purity and virginity,
and experience versus lack ofexperience.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
And how we view it just so differently for the
genders, and how, again, we makewomen responsible for not just
themselves but for what'shappening to them.
When we tell them hey, when youlose your virginity, like it's
something to lose, like it'shere's something I'm giving you,
when you lose your virginity,it's going to suck, it's going
to hurt and you're going to hateevery second of it and you're
(31:08):
totally responsible for whatpeople think about you
afterwards.
That's a lot.
I can understand why somepeople would want to avoid that,
because that sounds likesomething I would want to avoid
if I was younger, right?
Speaker 1 (31:19):
So have we even been able to answer?
What the fuck?
Virginity?
It's just an idea and a socialcontrol, and if y'all care about
the hymen and the bleeding andI guess, go for it.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
But the only reason I think someone would care if
they're I'm thinking about.
I'm trying to find a positive.
I do actually have some goodnews about this, but one of the
things like when I talk to youngmen there's an opportunity for
us to educate them.
Yes, you may want to ask ifit's your partner's first time,
so you can think about how tomake it more pleasurable by
(31:55):
using lube and by taking yourtime and by communicating
instead of just thrust, thrust,we're done.
There's an opportunity to makemen responsible for making that.
You know, making that firsttime as pleasurable as possible.
That's a lot to put on men,though.
They're just like why do?
Why do I have to figure out howto make my partner feel good?
Why can't I just do the thing Ido?
(32:16):
Well, there's a great place foreducation there.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
That's an interesting idea, though.
Let's get creative with it.
I mean, I'm a woman ofexperience when it comes to
different sexual things.
I'm just saying, and I'm proudof it I like sex and I like
doing sex and experimenting.
I like doing sex andexperimenting.
It is interesting, though,because when I have a new
(32:40):
partner, oftentimes there areareas in which I am more
experienced and it can be reallysexy, exciting and fun to be
someone that gets to introducesomeone to something else that's
going to feel good or has thepotential for that, and to have
that experience together likehaving someone's first time
(33:03):
doing something together isbonding.
It's vulnerable, it has its ownbeautiful sexiness to it.
It's an opportunity to createsomething incredible with
someone you know, and so, if welooked at it more like this,
there's responsibility to it todo it safely, to make it
(33:24):
pleasurable, make sure you knowso, for instance, if it's butt
stuff, you've got lube andyou're being gentle and asking
consent all the way.
If it's, you know, I don't know, some people haven't had Bdsm
experience or spankingexperiences or whatever
different kind of toys orthreesomes like doing it in a
way that.
So here's this adventure we'regonna do together.
(33:47):
Let's go get the outfits andthe tools and and have it be
this beautiful thing.
And it can be this because youwere, you had talked about
before.
You know.
Anal sex virginity, that is athing.
Oral sex virginity, it is athing.
If you can go into the idea ofvirginity just being the first
(34:07):
time and have it be this reallyexciting, beautiful thing, then
that's fun.
It never takes away, it alwaysadds to someone's life
experience, right?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yes.
And how much better would thatbe if your partner was like
enjoying it, enjoying it andrelaxed and not tight like not
just tight like vagina tight,but like tight like their body
was tight and tense becausethey're fearful of so much pain.
I don't know, there may be somepeople who get off on that, but
I would think you'd want apartner who is like into it and
(34:40):
actively.
Yes, let's keep going, andthere's an opportunity to make
that.
Yes, it may hurt a little, butthere's an opportunity to reduce
that and make this reallybeautiful experience.
That's not something to beashamed of.
And then we're giving women theright to enjoy sex, and I'm not
really sure our culture is 100%behind that.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
yet Well right, I think the idea of virginity goes
hand in hand with trying tomake sure women also don't think
sex is too enjoyable and don'twant to do it with too many
people and just want to do it tomake babies, which there seems
to be a big agenda for babymaking in our country right now.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Absolutely a big agenda for baby making in our
country right now.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
That's weird, Just saying.
And if you think it hurts tohave a cock go in your vagina,
let me tell you a giant babyhead coming out hurts way worse,
oh yeah.
But I do have good news.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yes, I want your good news.
Okay, so the good news is thisnext generation, like the young
one, like the late teens, early20s, they are starting to
rewrite the story a little bit.
So this concept of virginityand I get the idea that you want
to mark it and the term I'veheard sometimes, instead of
using virginity as your sexualdebut, but that's just.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I know I'm like all right I like it.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
To me that feels very like you should have a dress
and like an outfit, but it'smore positive.
Sexual debut is like your firsttime and this is fantastic.
My students won't buy that term.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I love that.
Then you can even have sexualdebut parties.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Right, you could have a whole, yeah, it could be a
whole thing.
To me it's just yeah, that termalways, but it sits better than
the term virginity, because youdon't lose a debut, you gain
always but it sits better thanthe term virginity, because you
don't lose a debut a debut, you,you gain.
Yeah, I like that.
I like, I love that term.
But what my students?
So we talk about this a lot andwhat my students are saying is
that now, with their generation,when people are starting rumors
(36:28):
oh well, you, steve, becausethat was the example you used
you know you and steve did thisthat instead of just being
shamed about it being like yeahand he, yeah, we had sex and it
was like two seconds, you didn'tknow what a clit was and like
really weaponizing it in a waythat I've never seen women take
power before.
The other thing is is thatvirginity does not seem at least
I mean there's.
(36:49):
There were some stories aboutthis in the Business Insider and
I'm hearing it from my students.
They're waiting longer to havesex and they're not as bothered.
So that whole idea of this push, it doesn't seem to be
happening right now with thekids in their late teens, so
maybe Waiting longer to have sex, or babies Both Sex they're
waiting longer to have sex.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah, and babies.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Or choosing not to have babies, which is irritating
some parts of the population,some people, some people, but
the teenagers themselves arewaiting longer to have sex.
They just don't see, they're notrushing into relationships.
They don't see that as theirvalue as much as I think our
generation and the generationsbetween us and them did.
So we are seeing a little bit,but that whole idea of oh,
(37:32):
you're going to start a rumorabout me and Steve, let me tell
you how small his cock was Notthat that's the defining thing
of men, but let me tell you howbad he was.
Let me tell you he was atwo-pump chump, Like really
weaponizing it back, and I don'tthink I've ever heard that from
women in their 30s, 40s and 50s.
Though, ladies, if you'relistening, own that, totally,
own that.
Rebrand that story.
(37:53):
Make it yours Right.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
That it's not something that diminishes you,
and I think that when all of thegenders have skin in the game
meaning if you're going to besexual with each other and then
use it to degrade the otherperson, know the script can be
flipped.
First of all, what is shitty,shitty, shitty way to experience
(38:18):
sex?
If you are going to have sex,do something sexual with someone
.
Make it an amazing thing.
Why are you weaponizing it Ifyour bros or your girlfriends
start teasing you about it?
Bros or your girlfriends startteasing you about it, turn to
(38:39):
them and just tell them shut thefuck up, you're just jealous.
I got to have some pleasure.
I hopefully got to have anorgasm.
Ladies, it may come slower foryou.
I wanted to make I know I'mbacktracking here, but we were
talking about the pain withlosing your virginity.
I am not the pain with thebreaking of the hymen and the
first time you experiencepenetration, whether with a cock
(38:59):
or whatever it may be.
Here's a little trick for theperson with the dick, like the
rhyme or the dildo or whatever.
Orgasms and pleasure releasechemicals that minimize pain,
maximize pleasure.
So if, before you do thepenetration, you have her in an
(39:23):
orgasmic or very pleasurablestate, or even have her having
orgasmed and then you do somepenetration, her experience of
pain is going to be far less.
She's also already going to bewet, hopefully lubed up.
It could be an incredibleexperience, and that little
discomfort she feels may bediminished to nothing or even be
(39:44):
perceived as somewhatpleasurable.
Just a suggestion.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Yeah, and it's a fantastic idea, and I talk about
with a lot of people how,especially those who have
chronic pain, that orgasm can bea great release, sometimes only
momentarily, but even if it's amomentary break from pain.
But what you just describedputs a lot of responsibility on
the person with the dick,because now they have to know
how to pleasure someone, whichsome men do Right, some men do
(40:14):
not, which some men do Right,some men do not.
But they have to figure out howto do that without penetration
all the way, if we're notbreaking the hymen yet, which
means they've got to figure outwhat parts of the body feel good
for their partner, and thattakes a lot of effort.
But that effort can be fun.
It can, it absolutely can.
We just have to figure out howto sell men on that idea.
Right, because they don't seemto get that.
It's not about their pleasure100% of the time.
(40:36):
It's supposed to be abouteveryone's pleasure.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Right.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
That's, as a culture, not what we usually focus on.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Well, see, when you're giving her pleasure, she
can give you a little pleasurePlus you, I don't know.
Look, I'm bisexual and anytimea woman gives me the opportunity
to touch her lady bits and playwith them, I recognize the
throne I'm getting to sit in.
For a moment.
I'm like I know that I am luckyto be here and I am going to
(41:04):
give it my all.
I get a real high off of it.
What's up?
Dudes Like why aren't yougetting a real high?
I mean I get, or I can actuallyfeel it's like an energetic
kind of orgasm from givingsomeone else pleasure, and
that's possible for all of us Ifyou can just slow your roll a
little bit and sit in that.
oh my God, I get to be heredoing this thing, I get to touch
(41:29):
this beautiful body, you know.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Where are they going to learn that?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
from Bisexual women.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Only Fans Channel.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Thank you.
A little boost, in fact.
In fact, I do teach fingeringand, like yoni, massage
techniques over there, so youcan switch it up and get her
there quicker, because peopleneed to learn how to do these
things and it's so much nicerwhen you've seen it in action.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
So but I think that's the problem.
If we're not talking about sexin school, which our sex ed is
abysmal and only going to getworse now, but if they're not
learning it from school, whichis fine, I'm not sure I would
have wanted to learn that inhigh school from my teacher here
.
So here's how you finger theway.
That would have been superawkward.
And then women aren't supposedto enjoy it and or they don't
have the language to explain toa partner.
(42:22):
I could see where partners likewell, where the hell am I
supposed to learn this?
I don't mean the bros aren'ttalking about it.
My female partners aren'texplaining what they want.
You're not going to see a lotof that in porn because that's
not what they focus on.
So in his defense he may belike yeah, I'd love to do some
of this, but I don't know how.
And again, annette's OnlyFanspage Exactly.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
You know, and I think it is interesting you bring up
and when we talk about sexeducation, the way in which you
are educated is for havingbabies.
We are not teachingpleasure-based sex ed and 99.9%
of the sex you're having is forpleasure.
(43:05):
So where do you go?
To be fair, most women don'tknow how to touch their own
vulvas.
Most women don't know thetechniques that I'm teaching.
You know over there and thatthere's so many different ways
you know.
How do we start teaching that ina way that our society accepts
(43:25):
or people feel comfortable?
I think the thing is you justhave to get comfortable with sex
so that our society can embraceit.
We're not going to becomfortable with sex if we are
devaluing people when they havesex for the first time, if we
are devaluing half of thepopulation as they gain
experience with sex.
I can't tell you how, sinceI've started this podcast, how
(43:49):
many people in comments or youknow in person people I knew who
have tried to like devalue mebased on the fact that I'm very
open about having experienceRight.
Or you know, when I talk abouthow many people I've had sex
with or the kinds of sex thatI've had and and I know they
feel they need that to feelcomfortable with themselves.
(44:09):
I don't.
I'm over here living my bestsexual life.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yep, that's what you're saying before I let them,
let them right, because the theother.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
The other thing is is people will judge you no matter
what you do.
So so let's say, you only havesex with one person.
I promise by the time you're atmy age, around you will be like
, oh, she's so unhappy.
I mean, you know, she's onlyever been with him.
She wouldn't even know if she'shaving good sex.
Yeah, she's not very.
I think she's asexual, she'snot very sexy.
(44:41):
That's probably why he looks atother women.
That is exactly the fuckingconversation that will happen.
You cannot win, so why not?
Speaker 2 (44:50):
make yourself happy.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah, exactly, I feel like what I'm taking from this
conversation is we're not goingto get rid of the concept of
virginity, but can we reframe itas something that could be this
fun experience or a positivethat brings people together and
opens up the sexual potentialfor the future?
Speaker 2 (45:23):
into my podcast homework for the rest of their
lives.
This is your homework.
I'm going to give you homeworkto work on this, and the reason
I think we have the potential isthat we talk about virginity in
so many other places Like thefirst time.
If you were to go do an extremesport, you might be like I'm a
virgin at this, and when you saythat it's not, oh well, you
shouldn't do this.
It's going to devalue you.
It's oh, you've never done thisbefore.
Let's talk about how to makethe experience great.
(45:44):
Why don't we do that first?
We're capable as a culture fortaking that idea of it's my
first time and making thatsomething fun and memorable and
exciting.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
We just don't do it with sex, so we just have to
figure out a way to shift thatinto the bedroom or wherever
you're having sex For someoneother than men, Because it's
already that way for guys, Likethey're getting the high five,
and even their fathers guys'fathers are like way to go champ
, and it's not that way forgirls at all.
(46:17):
I believe that that is shifting.
I don't think that I'd like tothink, and this isn't true
because I know I'm in a bubble.
I'm in a bubble, I'm in aliberal town.
I know that girls who areraised here hear a different
story, but I also know there's alot of purity culture out there
in conservative cities states,towns.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
I'm currently in the Northeast but before this I was
teaching in Texas and I hadstudents who were juniors and
seniors in college who would nothold hands with their partner
until they were married.
Like, forget sex, forgetkissing.
They weren't even holding hands, and this was in the last 10
years.
So that culture is alive andwell being in the Northeast.
(47:02):
I don't see it as much anymore,but it's definitely alive and
well in certain parts of thisculture.
What is a purity ball?
Everyone gets dressed up, theyget prom that level of dressed
up and it's young ladies.
It's only young ladies usually.
I mean there may be for littleboys, but I haven't heard about
them.
If that's happening, pleasesomeone correct me.
(47:22):
Young ladies are gettingdressed up.
Dad is getting dressed up, ordad figure, because sometimes
it's a stepdad or a guardian andthey are going to a dance and
they are celebrating that theirdaughter is pure and she's gonna
pledge to stay that way, andthere's often a purity ring
which is put on the girl's handas a mark of this pledge.
(47:45):
I'm watching your face.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Your face is exactly how I feel right now and there's
this they literally will take apledge to save themselves for
marriage and it's like they'repledging to their fathers that
their purity is like theirfathers, or something like that
is what they're saying.
Oh my god, if that is not likefather sexualizing his daughter,
you don't.
There is nothing that is.
(48:11):
That is the stuff that shows upin porn, like period.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, but it also, I mean it carries through.
When you think abouttraditional weddings, dad is
giving away the daughter likeshe's property and it's it's his
property.
Yeah, so I mean that's, yeah,it's an extension of it.
But yeah, we, we definitelyhave that idea and it's.
It's fascinating because whenwe study the few studies that
have been done on purity pledges, sure they don't work.
(48:38):
People don't usually keep tothem and then, when they don't,
there's this sense of shame andfailure and that's a lot for
anyone, let alone a younger girl.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Also, it severs the father-daughter relationship
because the daughter hasn'tupheld this pledge that she's.
We talk about consent.
The reason why there is an agefor when a girl can, or a boy
can, consent to sex is becausethere's a certain age at which
we do not have the ability tomake those kind of commitments
(49:14):
or make those kinds of choices.
Yet you're asking a girl thatyoung to make a pledge about sex
to her father.
It really gives me that givesme a big, big time ick.
And I have to imagine on somelevel that the girl feels the
sexualization happening inconnection with her father, like
(49:36):
in some sort of like.
I remember, because I rememberand you and I are the same age,
so I don't know how much you sawthis in your youth, but when I
started to become a young woman,I remember how, like my dad's,
like workmates and stuff likethat, would comment on oh,
you're a knockout, you're goingto be a knockout, every boy is
going to want you.
(49:56):
And I felt there was thatfeeling like something felt
inappropriate, at the very least.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Yet somehow acceptable, because no one was
calling them out.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Right, which this purity ball thing feels very
similar, like it has to give adaughter a little bit of an ick.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
Yeah, and then if she does break it and she doesn't
tell him she is now deceitfuland dishonest and like she's
hiding a piece of herselfbecause she doesn't want to
disappoint daddy?
Oh, that felt bad.
I didn't know it wasappropriate.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
When you, you're oh, it even shocked me a little bit,
but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
And so either she's honest and then she's got the
chance of like you're not mydaughter, you, you disappointed
me, you screwed up I can'tbelieve you would do this to me
as the father figure or she's tolie about it, in which case
she's withholding part of thispart of her experiences and
maintaining this lie, which isexhausting, this lie which is
(51:02):
exhausting.
And this is all while peopleare like 15, 16, 17, possibly
into their 20s, if that's howlong they're maintaining it.
That's a lot of pressure, likeyou said, for kids whose brains
haven't fully developed yet.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
It's a lot of pressure and it's a lot of very
strong messaging.
It's weird, Now that we're nearthe end of this conversation,
what I feel like because, again,I work with a lot of people
coaching people who are inrelationship and frustrated
because usually, usually thewoman in the relationship is
(51:34):
like not as interested in sex.
And I'm just listening to thisconversation on virginity
because it really is one of ourfirst a woman's, a girl's first
concept of sex.
Man, how can there be anexpectation that we would be,
sex, would come easy to us or beinteresting or something we
(51:55):
want to pursue, when it's soawful from the get-go, the
messaging is so bad from theget-go and what I hope, if
anything, that all of the peoplewho are listening to this
podcast and God, I wish I couldmake everybody listen to it.
This is helping you to step backa little bit and go oh shit.
(52:17):
No wonder she feels stressed bythis.
No wonder this feels like workto her.
No wonder it's not top of herlist of priorities when, from
day one, she's been told thatdoing this thing can ruin your
fucking life, it can hurt thepeople around you, it can
devalue your worth, it can likeall these things.
It's going to be painful.
(52:38):
So it's in your best interestto get on board and start
working on changing thismessaging and maybe go to your
partner if you are a man in thissituation and sit down and
start having the conversation.
Man, what was the first thingyou remember about sex?
What were you told aboutvirginity?
(52:59):
Why don't you start over withher, Say, hey, let's talk about
these things.
How can we like, rewrite thisand make sex fun for you again?
This would be a great startingpoint, right?
Speaker 2 (53:14):
It really would be.
It's unfortunately assumingwomen would be capable of having
that conversation without guilt.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
I think men might be more willing to have the
conversation than women.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Yeah, I think for men it would be a, because for them
it's like I want to be a goodpartner.
I'm just learning about this.
I had no clue, because howwould they know?
They've seen the messaging butthey didn't internalize it the
same way.
But for her, she has to say,wow, yeah, I was really fucked
up by what happened to me earlyin my life.
I don't even know how to beginto talk about that.
(53:48):
That can feel overwhelming, butit's baby steps and having a
part.
You know.
If you as a guy or a femalepartner or whoever, are showing
like, I want to know like, howdo we fix this?
How do we undo it?
We can't fix, it's not broken.
How do we help adjust thecourse that we're going on?
(54:11):
How do we make this better foryou?
You just made yourself thatmuch more attractive to your
partner because you want to bethere with them and that's a
huge step.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
It's interesting that , as you talk about that, I do
think about how most of theexperience I have right and most
of the people who come to me no, I work with a lot of women,
but I have more men and ashockingly large amount of men
and from all sorts ofbackgrounds.
Some are more conservative,some lean more liberal, but they
(54:39):
come to me and they're tryingto talk to their female partners
and they can't get hurt.
I hear this so much and, yeah,I think this conversation would
be a great starting point andapproaching with compassion and
with no expectation of itresulting in sex, but saying hey
(55:01):
, I'm curious about where didsex start for you?
Can we learn this about eachother and working from
compassion and a healingperspective?
Speaker 2 (55:19):
And letting it be a two-part conversation, because
while you are ready to have thatconversation, your partner may
not be.
That may be very blindsiding tothem, especially in a culture
where good girls don't talkabout sex.
And now you want me to talkabout my sexual experiences.
So, realizing that it may be ahey, I'd really love to talk to
you about this and your partnergoing, oh, okay, not now, I need
(55:39):
to think about this and beingwilling to rehab that
conversation.
Having conversation in twostages is better than having no
conversation.
So just realize it may.
Just because you are ready tohave the conversation doesn't
mean that she is.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Right, you could just send a link to this podcast and
sit and listen together.
Blame it on us.
Blame it on us.
Listen to these two crazyladies.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
New York and Portland .
It's going to be trouble.
Oh I, yeah.
So this I didn't know cominginto this conversation.
For me it felt cut and dry.
It was like virginity isn'tanything, let's just.
But the reality is it'ssomething, because it's always
been made into something, right.
So now the question isn't howdo we just teach people that
(56:28):
virginity isn't a real thing,but instead I think, like you're
talking about, we need to startreframing it.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
Okay, An opportunity to like try something new and
let's make it fun and positiveTry something new have a sexual
debut.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Look, there is a little rhyme too.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
Not good with the rhyming.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
I like no, but also I'm really loving this concept
of sexual debut, like that's awhole party.
Speaker 2 (56:55):
Right, it's just that word changes the whole
conversation.
Speaker 1 (57:00):
At what age did you make your sexual debut?
Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yeah, Right, like what age did you make your
sexual debut?
Oh well, I was like it's just amore positive term than
virginity.
When did you lose yourvirginity?
You're already telling me howI'm supposed to react to that.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
I think we can make this happen.
I believe in us All right, I'mon board.
I'm going to start askingpeople that, though.
I'm definitely going to startdoing that.
Speaker 2 (57:22):
All right listeners.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I want you to write in or leave a message, a
voicemail, about your sexualdebut.
When did you have yours?
I want to start there.
Do you have any final pieces ofadvice?
Some more homework to give mylisteners before we sign off.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Just start making the changes now and if you're a
parent, watch your languagebecause they're learning from
you.
But for those of you who aren'tparents or your kids are out of
the house, take that moment toreally think about kind of what
happened and don't think it'ssomething that needs to be fixed
.
You're not broken.
But let's think about how toreframe and make it better going
forward.
It can always get better goingforward, but it may take some
(58:03):
self-reflection and somevulnerability, so just be open
to it.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
Love that.
All right, tell my listeners,it's that time.
Where can they find you?
Speaker 2 (58:13):
Hey, so Unzipping Taboos, candid conversations
about sex.
We have new episodes that dropat 8 am Eastern time, because
East Coast, you can find theepisodes on Spotify and Apple
Podcasts and if you want to findme, I am on Instagram and
YouTube and Substack as HeyDrSue.
So H-E-Y-D-R-S-U-E.
Speaker 1 (58:32):
Perfect.
And you said they drop at 8 am.
On what day?
Wednesdays, wednesdays, perfect.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me and listeners, look
again, you know, if you have anyquestions, comments.
You want to give us a sexualdebut story.
(58:53):
If you are on my YouTubechannel, you can drop a comment
in the comment section below thevideo.
You can also email me atAnnette at TalkSexWithAnnettecom
.
You can scroll down to the linkbelow.
There's a speakpipe link to thelink below.
There's a speak pipe link.
You can leave me a voice noteon that.
So feel free to do that.
Or, you know, head over to mysocials and DM me.
So again, thank you so much forjoining me.
(59:15):
This was a great conversation.
I learned a lot.
Thank you for having me.
This was fantastic and mylisteners.
Until next time I'll see you inthe locker room.
Cheers Ring loop.
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