September 1, 2025 • 50 mins
We’re diving deep into the wild world of the Hatfields and McCoys, a legendary family feud that kicked off over a pig but spiraled into a saga of chaos and heartbreak. Yep, you heard that right—a pig! Join me, Scott, and my historian wife Jen as we take a stroll through the hills of Kentucky, where we’ll unpack the juicy details of this infamous rivalry that’s been the talk of the town since before your grandma was even a twinkle in her daddy’s eye. We’ll share our own adventures, including a run-in with a Hatfield descendant, and explore how a simple squabble turned into a full-blown war that would make even Shakespeare raise an eyebrow. Get cozy, grab a snack, and let’s chat about the family drama, the heartbreak, and how this tale is still woven into the fabric of American folklore today!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Talk with History.
I am your host Scott, and mywife and historian Jen and I are
taking a couple weeks off aswe gear up for some fantastic new
content.
Coming.
I thought I would revisit someof our most popular podcast episodes
during our break.
And of course, our journeythrough the hollers of Kentucky came
to mind.
Yes, the infamous Hatfieldsand McCoys episode.
(00:22):
Jen has actually guested onother podcasts to speak specifically
about our experience in thisnow legendary family feud.
She covers how this feud roseout of the ashes of the Civil War
and the stranger than fictionhistorical events and even how we
had our own encounter with aHatfield descendant right there in
Pikeville, Kentucky.
(00:52):
Even the crickets here in theholler hold their breath sometimes.
You can feel it in the air, atension thicker than summer humidity.
Hatfields and McCoys, theysay, been at it since before the
war.
Those two families.
My pappy used to tell storiesabout Devilance Hatfield, meanest
son of a gun this side of The Mississippi.
(01:13):
Had 13 kids, all cut from thesame honorary cloth.
Over on the Kentucky sidethere was Randolph McCoy ol Ranall,
they used to call him.
Same story.
A brood of boys itching for a fight.
It all started with the pig.
Some folks say stolen or notstolen, depending on who you ask.
(01:33):
But that was just the spark.
The real fire came later.
With guns blazing across theTug Fork.
Men dying over land and pride.
My cousin Asa, poor fellacaught in the crossfire.
Left a hole in our familythat'll never mend.
This here's the story of theHatfield McCoy feud, a saga of hatred
and revenge that tore thesehills apart.
(01:56):
We'll meet the families, hearthe gunshots echo through the hollers
and see if there's any truthto the whispers of a star crossed
love affair that bloomed inthe shadow of all that hate.
So pull up a chair by the firecause this ain't gonna be a pretty
tale, but it's one worth hearing.
(02:17):
Welcome to Talk with History.
I'm your host Scott, here withmy wife and historian Jen.
Hello.
On this podcast we give youinsights to our history Inspired
World Travels YouTube channelJourney and examine history through
deeper conversations with thecurious, the explorers and the history
lovers out there.
And John, I'm just going tojump right into it.
We are talking about a verypopular, very famous family feud
(02:43):
about the Hatfield McCoys.
Yes, we're going to go rightinto American folklore that happens
to be based in actual history.
Yeah, and this was kind of afun one because you and I got some
time away from the kids, Mymom was watching the kids.
And so we just kind of headeddue west and started driving out
towards the Kentucky, Virginiaborder area.
(03:04):
Did some other history topicswe've talked about before, but we
discovered we were in HatfieldMcCoy country.
And it was amazing because wealways wanted to do this story.
So being there, we just tookfull advantage of it and we started
at the visitor center, whichis the best place to go in Pikeville,
(03:26):
Kentucky.
Yeah, that was.
It was.
I'm so happy that we stoppedthere first because we really got
the best kind of lay of theland advice that you could get, you
could ask for.
And honestly, we both say it.
After that trip, we, we saidthe nicest people we have met on
our history travels throughAmerica were in Kentucky.
They were amazing.
(03:46):
They were.
They were so friendly, like,because sometimes you feel a little
bit like an interloper goingaround, especially with the camera.
You're saying, hey, I'mlooking for this, I'm looking for
that.
Not there.
No.
They were so welcoming and open.
They treated us like family.
It was truly amazing.
So I would say if you're goingto do any Hatfield and McCoy travel
(04:08):
exploring, start in thevisitor center in Pikeville, Kentucky.
And there's a couple reasonsyou want to start there.
First of all, it's a coollittle town.
A lot of the history of theHatfields McCoys happens in Pikeville,
Kentucky.
But you're going to get thebest Internet coverage there.
And we're going to talk aboutthat because once you start exploring
(04:28):
outside of Pikeville, you'rein the hollers, you're in the backwoods
roads of West Virginia and Kentucky.
You're right along the borderthere, and you're going to lose your
Internet coverage.
So if you're trying to findspecific locations, you won't be
able to GPS them or look themup on your Google Maps or whatever.
(04:49):
You use Apple Maps, you won'tbe able to use it.
So at the visitor center, youcan get a free brochure.
It's the Hatfields and McCoyshistoric feud driving Tour.
And again, this was in Pikeville.
Pikeville, okay.
Kentucky, at the visitorcenter there.
And it's located at 831 HamblyBoulevard in Pikeville, Kentucky.
(05:13):
So it was a great guy therewho helped us.
He was so.
He was so open and friendly.
He kept telling us how Chriscomes in all the time and you know,
Chris Love loves it here.
And I'm looking at him like,who, Chris?
Who?
Who are you talking about?
I don't.
I don't know.
I know many Chris.
Yeah.
And I'm like, o.
And he's talking about Chris Stapleton.
(05:35):
Who.
The country music singer who.
We have his record behind usin our podcast, Traveler, because
we love his music.
We love the bluegrass, we lovethe sound of it.
And I guess Chris Stapleton isfrom Pikeville, Kentucky.
There was a couple otherpretty well known actors.
Patty Loveless is from there,Dwight Yoakum.
I think they call it like thatwas it country music highway through
(05:56):
there.
But also there was an actor.
Most folks wouldn't quite knowhis name yet, but he's been in some
really big stuff on Netflix.
He was in, like at the new.
New version of Justified.
He was also in Hatfields McCoys.
That's right.
He played one of the McCoys.
No, he plays one of the Hatfields.
One of the Hatfields.
Yeah, he plays the sun.
He's from that area.
(06:16):
He's from that area.
It's really cool.
And so, yeah, you're gonna get.
It's close to Loretta Lynn'shouse, too.
So a lot of people will go tothe visitor center to get information
about visiting Loretta Lynn's cabin.
We have a whole episode onthat, where you go, where you get
your tickets, who you talk to,if you want to visit there.
A lot of people will get thatinformation also from center.
(06:37):
So that visitor center isgreat for that.
And also if you're going to dothe Hatfields McCoys, get the driving
tour, you're going to wantthat brochure because it gives you
step by step instructionsafter you get out of the city.
And you're not going to haveyour gps.
And it's nice too, because youcan sit there and kind of plan it
out ahead of time because thedriving tour could probably, if you
do the whole thing, it'llprobably take you all day, but you
(07:00):
can in advance kind of pickand choose the spots you want to
go, how much driving youactually want to do.
Plus, you can actually startthere in Pikeville at the, at the,
the city courthouse.
There's.
There's a little museum therethat's all about the Hatfield McCoys
as well as some other stuff inthe area.
Yeah.
So it's the historiccourthouse where they were put on
trial.
The second floor courtroom hasnow become a museum.
(07:24):
And we went over there firstand we actually met an actual Hatfield.
Yeah.
So we were.
I, I told the story to acouple folks.
We were driving around lookingfor parking near the courthouse,
and I pull up next to ahospital and we pull up next to this
hospital.
(07:44):
We couldn't tell if it washospital only parking or if we could
park there.
And a security guard walks up,he's an older gentleman, probably
in his early 60s, and he says, hey.
He'd say, hey, can I help you guys?
And we said, hey, we'relooking for parking.
You know, we're trying to goto the courthouse.
And so he had kind of pointedus off in another direction just
a little, you know, just alittle ways away.
And then you saw his name tag.
And his name Tad saidHatfield, said Hatfield.
(08:07):
And so I asked him, yeah, areyou Hatfield?
Are you related to Devil an Hatfield?
And he said, yeah, it's mygreat uncle.
And he actually owns the landwhere they had the feud and the kid,
the boys with the border,where the boys were shot, where the
McCoy boys was shot.
And we're going to get intoeverything that happened.
(08:27):
And he even said to us too,he's like, I guess the Hatfields
won in the end.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
I know, we just laugh.
We're like, okay, yeah, Imean, he was, he was very kind.
He was very joking about it,very jovial.
But yeah, we told him.
We're like, oh my gosh, we'rehere to go see some of the sites
and visit some of the locations.
He's like, and he told usthat, that little bit.
But only in Pikeville, Kentucky.
(08:49):
Yes.
Would you be driving aroundand just randomly run into one of
the Hatfields, one of thedescendants of the Hatfields I know.
Who actually lives on the land.
Who actually lives on the land.
So that was pretty cool.
So let's, what we're going todo is like, let's talk about what
happened, the historic whathappened, and then we'll talk about
what you can see.
Because in the city ofPikeville you can see a couple things
(09:10):
that are like the middle ofthe story and the end of the story.
And you might be confused ifyou don't know the story.
Why would I.
What is this place?
Why would.
I don't want to mention itright away.
So I rather mention it inorder of it, how it happened.
But if you're going to driveand visit, you're not going to.
You'd be ping ponging all overthe place to do that.
You would want to go toeverywhere in Pikeville and then
(09:32):
start to branch out.
So I will.
Let's do the whole story andthen I'll tell you where you can
go visit.
I also want to talk about.
There's a lot of popularityaround the Hatfields and McQuarrie's
because of the miniseries thatcame out with Kevin Costner and Bill
Paxton.
Bill Paxton, that's right.
I will say that miniseries isvery accurate if you want to watch
(09:54):
it.
We actually watched it.
I actually watched it while wewere there.
Again, because I hadn't seenit in years.
Yeah, I think I watched itafter the fact.
Yes.
Yeah, it's very well acted.
They actually filmed on location.
Oh, did they?
So all of those same places,they look just like that.
And they're very accurate withhow they tell the story and the timeline
(10:17):
of the story.
They do a very good job.
So if you're interested inunderstanding more about the nuances
of the story and how thingsare really interconnected and these
families who just couldn'tseem to get enough of each other,
watch that miniseries.
It's a three part miniseries.
It's fantastic.
It's.
It's really good.
And that just.
That just goes to show howincredible and almost like how crazy
(10:40):
the true life story is thatthey didn't have to change much to
make it, you know, to Hollywood.
Ready?
Yeah.
It's.
Truth is stranger than fiction.
And remember, this is reallyplayed into American folklore.
When you think about Star Trekand Doc McCoy is related to the McCoys.
Like, this is supposed to bevery interactive into our American
(11:02):
culture now, which it is thisHatfield and McCoy feud.
But it all goes back to reallythe biggest feud of America.
It all really starts with theCivil War.
Yeah.
So talk to me a little bitabout how The Hatfields and McCoys
(11:25):
were involved in the Civil Warand why that kind of was the genesis.
So we're really dealing hereon the border of Kentucky and Virginia
before it becomes WestVirginia, because West Virginia is
a product of the Civil War.
West Virginia is not a statebefore the Civil War.
But because there are so manypeople who are anti Confederacy in
(11:48):
Virginia, they really breakaway to start their own state and
say, we want to be a Union state.
We want to be part of the Union.
We don't want to be part ofthis Confederacy.
That was West Virginia that.
That said that.
Yes.
Okay.
And made their own state, West Virginia.
So here we have this borderwhere the Hatfields are on one side,
the McCoys are on the other.
(12:09):
The Hatfields are WestVirginian and the McCoys are Kentucky.
And they.
That's where you're going toget a lot of families and brothers
who are going to fight foreither side.
Because when you think aboutit, this is a.
This is where the WestVirginians are going to break away
because they want pro union.
So you're going to getfamilies and brothers who are like,
(12:31):
I, I side with Kentucky.
I side with Virginia, henceWest Virginia.
So that.
That kind of is what happenshere now, not with the patriarchs.
That when we really talk aboutthe Hatfields and McCoys, there's
two head men of these families.
You're going to get WilliamAnderson Hatfield Devil ants on the
Hatfield side, and then you'regoing to get Randall, Old Randall
(12:52):
McCoy on the McCoy side.
They both fight for the Confederacy.
They both fight together forthe Confederacy.
Yeah.
And in the miniseries, that's.
That is Kevin Costner and Bill Paxton.
Yes.
They both feel like it's theirduty now.
McCoy really feels like it'shis duty.
He wants to stay.
Hatfield Devil Ants starts tosee the Confederacy losing and feels
(13:15):
like it's a losing fight, andhe doesn't want to die for a lost
cause.
So he.
He basically leaves early andgoes back to his land.
Probably leaves like.
Like a year or two before theend of the war.
Before the end of the war.
And goes back to his land.
And then he's able to starthis business up and really get more
solid business.
Yeah, they do, like logging alot of land stuff.
(13:38):
Yes.
But before McCoy can even getback home.
And that's.
That's Bill Paxton.
That's Bill Paxton.
And so you see McCoy kind of.
Resentful of that fact,because doesn't he get captured?
He does get captured at one point.
And so he has to survive.
He's a prisoner of war, prison of.
Work, which, if you knowanything about Civil War prisoners
of war, both sides were horrible.
(13:58):
You can't even say the southwas worse than the North.
They both treated theirprisoners terrible.
But that's not really wherethe feud starts.
They're friends.
They're kind of.
McCoy's kind of pissed atHatfield because he left early.
Left early.
Mad at him.
But that's not the feud.
(14:19):
It starts this whole feud.
And if people like to say itwas the pig trial, the pig trial
is really where it kind ofgets really dug in.
But the feud really startswith A brother of McCoy, Asa Harmon
McCoy, who served in the Union.
So here you got brothers whoare serving for two separate sides.
(14:44):
And Asa comes back home, he'sbeen captured.
He served time in aConfederate prisoner of war camp.
He comes back home.
He's not even home for 13 daysbefore he is killed.
And he's killed January 7, 1865.
So this is really before theend of the war.
(15:05):
He serves time and he Gets outearly and he comes back and it's
Jim Vance.
James Vance is the uncle ofold ants.
So he's a Hatfield.
That's Tom Behringer in the.
In the mini series who playsit so well.
He's phenomenal.
So Tom Behringer plays KevinCostner's uncle.
Uncle, Right.
Crazy.
(15:26):
Yeah, the crazy.
This is like, you think aboutthe crazy uncle.
This is back then, like, youknow, West Virginia.
Yeah.
Crazy.
Crazy uncle.
Crazy uncle who's a rebel.
Yeah.
Right.
He believes in the rebel cause.
So here comes a McCoy homethat fought for the Union.
And he's mad.
Not.
Not only that, he, like, getcaptured as a prisoner of war, and
he gets out and now he's back home.
(15:48):
This is for the end of the war.
He's mad.
So 13 days later, he's killed.
And so this is what starts the feud.
A McCoy is killed by the Hatfield.
Yeah.
And that's kind of what I wasreferring to as, like, I'll call
it time traveling.
Scotty, that did the introthere, right?
When you say, like, my cousin Asa.
Yeah.
You know, because I had.
There were so many brothersand sisters.
There's so much family on each side.
(16:11):
That really was the firstevent that really kicked off this
feud.
Yes.
And when you think about it,there's these huge families, these
huge networks of families.
Right.
And that's who does all your farming.
That's who you.
That's who does all yourbusiness with.
It's like you have six orseven brothers and sisters, and then
they have six or sevenbrothers and sisters,.
(16:32):
And they have.
So you have these hugefamilies on either side.
It doesn't mean they didn't intermarry.
They.
Tedfield's McCoy certainlyintermarried, but they had these
strong family ties through thepatriarch line.
And it's the McCoy brotherwho's killed by the Hatfield uncle
that starts this whole thing.
And we go to that locationthat is outside of the city.
(16:55):
It's by this little school, Ithink it's called BlackBerry.
Yeah.
Then there's a marker there.
There's a marker there.
That's a great place to be.
Like, this is where it all started.
And you're going to get like,this feud is going to last a while
because his widow starts tokind of.
She starts to needle her way into.
With lawyers and things like that.
(17:17):
So this is going to start thewhole feud.
I mean, the feud kind of goeson for a few decades.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
So, I mean, it's going to be13 years later when this hog Trial
happens.
So that's the first thing that happens.
It's not publicized that itwas Jim Vance that did it.
Family tradition points to him.
He's part of that WestVirginia militia group that is the
(17:39):
rebels that did that.
The application for his wife'spension from the Union said he was
killed by rebels.
So that's kind of like howpeople have paced that together.
There's no existing recordspertaining to his death.
There's no death record.
But when she's goes for the pension.
Killed by rebels is what it says.
And so, and I think even someof the markers don't specifically
(18:00):
call out the Hatfield, butthey, they call out the group, but
it's, it's, it's implied.
Was a leader of the group.
So, so McCoy comes back fromthe end of the war.
So this happens in January 1865.
McCoy comes back the end ofthe war, and he starts to hear rumblings
and he's not.
(18:21):
Not only is he mad thatHatfield old anst has left early
and been able to kind of keephis family going where McCoy family
has basically just reallybarely gotten by now he's here rumblings
that his brother was killed by Hadfield.
So he just kind of is, isupset about it, bitter about it,
(18:43):
bitter about it, but goesabout his business and starts to
build their life back.
So if you go to the McCoywell, which is again on the outskirts
of Pikeville, but it's a greatplace to visit.
They have a guy who livesthere who loves giving tours.
Yeah, if you drive up and ifthe guys, you know, there's a gentleman
(19:07):
that lives right near thewell, which is where their old home
was.
But if his, if his garage isopen and he's out, he'll come right
up to you and come talking to you.
He came and she said, hey,come look at this stuff.
I have my garage.
And we were like, excuse me.
But like, Kevin Costner wentand visited there.
He, he said he used to likegive tours and stuff.
So it's Vandal McCoy's.
Well, it's in Hardy, Kentucky.
(19:28):
So this is where McCoy's homewas and this is where the pig was.
And so the pig gets markedwith the McCoy mark, which is basically
two notches out of its ear,wanders away onto the hill.
So if you stand on at theMcCoy well, which was behind their
house where they got theirwater, now they make alcohol.
(19:48):
From there you can buy theMcCoy, well, alcohol, moonshine or
whatever.
If you look up, you can seelike a hill.
That's where the pig wanderedonto the hill.
And that was Hatfield land.
Not old ants Hatfield land,but one of his cousins land.
And so what happens is thatthat pig has gotten over there and
(20:09):
the cousin Floyd Hatfieldclaimed it was his hog and he's taking
it to slaughter.
Walks by Randall McCoy andMcCoy looks at his ears and says,
those are McCoy marks, notHatfield marks.
And Floyd says, that pig hasbeen on my land for a couple years
now, and it's mine.
And.
And McCoy's like, that pigwandered away from my house like
(20:33):
three or four years ago.
We just thought.
We just thought it.
Something happened to it, like.
But you kept it.
That's my pig.
Yeah.
So they start arguing over whoowns this pig.
They start arguing who ownsthis pig.
And you.
You drove home too, and Ithink you made it into the video
about how valuable those hogswere, especially at that time.
At that time, it's your livelihood.
Yeah.
It's feeding your family.
(20:54):
Basically you could see it asRandall McCoy felt the Hatfields
was stealing food from hisfamily's mouths.
Yeah.
It was that bad.
You're stealing another man.
And that.
And that's why things startedto get so heated.
Yes.
This happens in 1878.
So this is 13 years after Asais killed.
So McCoy has let this festerfor 13 years.
(21:15):
Right.
He hasn't brought anything up.
I don't think he's beenperfect, particularly friendly to
the Hatfields, but I mean,they're still neighbors and.
But he.
Now he's mad.
He takes it to the justice ofthe peace and he wants.
He wants justice.
And the justice of the peaceis Anderson Hatfield.
(21:36):
So it's.
It's.
It's old and it's cousin.
Yeah, it's one of his cousins.
Yes.
And so.
And he's a well educated man,knows the law, but he's also from
Kentucky and he also in WestVirginia, he's also Hatfield and
he understands family almostmatters more than the law.
(21:57):
And so you can go to the cabinwhere this trial takes place.
And I would recommend that is a.
That is a place you want to go.
Yeah, that was really coolbecause you're driving through, you
know, just to kind of stepback and.
And set the scene of where we are.
Like, one of the things that Ikind of wondered before we got out
there is like, what's a holler?
Well, it's a bunch of littlemini valleys.
(22:19):
Right.
You're driving through, and itis beautiful land out there.
It's absolutely gorgeousdriving through these hollers.
Like when we went up tobutcher hauler to Loretta Lynn and
driving through these hollerswas really cool.
So you really feel, feel likeyou're there and then you come down
and I think it's near like apost office.
Yeah, it's right beside it.
Maar, Kentucky.
Yeah.
And so you drive up and theyhad recreated the, the cabin there.
(22:42):
And so I think they call itthe Pig Trail Hog Trial Cabin.
And you know, it's, it's ingood shape.
You know, I, I'm sure atcertain times of the year you might
be able to go inside.
We weren't able to.
Yes.
Look in the windows.
And there's other things thataren't actually too far from that,
from that cabin.
Some other markers that we'lltalk about a little bit.
But it was just, it wasbeautiful time of year.
We were there in October andit was so neat to do.
(23:05):
And if you're thinking about,considering about going on these
driving tour, I highly recommend.
This is one of your stops.
Yeah, it's in, it's called thePreacher Ants Hatfield Hog Trial
Cabin and its location, itjust gives you like a County Road.
319, Makar, Kentucky.
And that's kind of how you'regoing to have to get around there.
It really is like these oldcountry roads.
(23:32):
So this is what the trial isgoing to take place.
Now, I will say the UncleAnderson, Preacher Anderson tried
to make it, tried to make it just.
He tried to put half of theHatfields on the jury and half of
the McCoys on the jury.
The problem was that One ofthe McCoys was married to Hatfield.
(23:54):
And like I said, these,they're intermarried.
And so he was kind of arelative of both families.
And he said that he didn't, hedidn't think that that mark was a
McCoy mark.
And so that kind of pushed it.
And so Anderson Hatfield ruledin favor of the Hatfields.
Right.
So he sided with his wife'sside, which was the Hatfield side.
Yep.
And so that, that makes McCoyeven more mad.
(24:19):
Like finally he's like, Ididn't get justice for my brother.
Nobody cares.
I didn't get justice for my pig.
Nobody cares.
And so this is when the sons,the McCoy sons start getting involved,
start getting involved, theyreally start to get upset.
So Hatfield has a couple sons,McCoy has a couple sons.
Everyone's have like 10 kidsand daughters, right?
(24:40):
Daughters.
So Randall McCoy.
Right.
Who's the patriarch of theMcCoy side, his sons start getting
involved and things startgetting rowdy.
So it's in, it's two yearslater in June of 1880 that the.
The testimony of the relativeof the McCoys who was married to
the Hatfield is killed by twoof the McCoy sons.
(25:00):
They're like, hey, you betrayed.
They kind of in, in theminiseries, they kind of say, hey,
you betrayed our side of the family.
And they kill him.
They kill him.
Now they are immediatelyarrested, but the Hatfields catch
him.
They see them him do that andthey take him into trial.
But they claim self defense.
And because nobody saw it,they say he came after us with a
(25:21):
knife, which he probably didbecause they threatened him that
they were going to kill him.
So he pulls a knife and says,I'm going to defend myself.
And then they just kill him.
And so they claim self defense.
And you see in the, in the, inthe miniseries that Anderson Hatfield,
the just the piece is gettingvery mad now at this, at this point
because they're using the law,which is true.
(25:43):
But he can't.
He kind of bent the law in thefirst place for his cousin to win
the hog trial.
Now the McCoys are bending thelaw in their favor to win the self
defense.
And he just sees thisescalating right now.
We've killed a person was killed.
Asa has been killed.
A hog has been taken.
Now someone else has been killed.
So we kind of have a person onthe McCoy side has been killed and
(26:07):
a person on the Hatfield sidehas been killed.
So that's where we're at right now.
This is 1880, so it's kind ofright now an eye for an eye.
But this is going to escalatenow with a daughter.
Of course, things startgetting complicated when the, when
(26:28):
the girls start coming in.
So Randall McCoy has abeautiful daughter named Rosanna.
And she enters intorelationship with Devil and son Johnson.
They call him Jonesy.
And she leaves her family tolive with them because McCoy, basically,
Randall McCoy, basicallydisowns her when he finds out that
she likes him.
(26:50):
Right.
He's so mad still.
This is festered for so long.
How could my daughter.
Yeah.
And in the miniseries, likeJones, he's like, like the handsome
Hatfield.
He's kind of a little bit of aplayboy, right?
Yeah.
And they start this fling andthey, you know, quote, unquote, fall
in love.
Yes.
You know, and you have tothink about it too.
I, they.
They don't get into a bunch of this.
(27:11):
In the miniseries, Jonesyalready has a kid by another woman.
There's not a lot of peoplearound at this time.
The people you know are yourneighbors because it's not like you're
going into the city it's notlike you're meeting a bunch of people.
Right.
The hog trial was probably theevent of the.
Of the year.
Yeah, well.
And it's hard to travel aroundthose hollers out there.
I mean, it's.
Travel is slow.
It's slow.
(27:31):
You walk or you ride your horse.
So who is she gonna seebesides your neighbor?
And so this is very much likea Romeo and Juliet kind of situation,
because my enemy is the onlyperson who has a son who's my age.
You know, so that's kind ofwhat happens here.
When she tells Randall McCoythat she likes her father.
Yeah, yeah.
(27:52):
She tells her father that shelikes the Hatfield son.
He kicks her out.
So she goes over to them, theytake her in as good people.
They.
But then she ends up getting pregnant.
And so then they kick her outbecause it's starting a problem that
they're not married.
And.
And so then the McCoys don'twant her coming back with basically
(28:13):
a bastard child, so she's kindof sent to live with an aunt on the
outskirts of this whole area.
And what's very weird is the brothers.
Then again, the McCoy brotherstry to honor their sister and kidnap
(28:34):
John Z.
And they were going to kill him.
They were going to kill him.
And so she finds out aboutthis and goes and tells the Hatfields,
the only people that she knowsthat can save him would be his own
people, Even though she's kindof like betraying her own brothers.
Betraying her own brothers.
So she goes until theHatfields, the Hatfields go stop
the killing.
(28:54):
And they don't.
They don't hurt the McCoyboys, but they.
They basically give a good.
Like, this is your last chancekind of thing.
Like, no one was hit, killedhere, but this.
We're.
We're escalating this.
This is getting really big andwe need to stop.
And so John Z.
(29:14):
Basically abandons herpregnant because it is getting kind
of big.
Yeah.
When neither side wants.
It's either supports orcondones this relationship, ostracizing
each of them.
So it's kind of.
It's not even a lesser of any evil.
They're just.
Jonesy just kind of sides withhis family, and he.
He.
He leaves Rosanna and leavesher for.
(29:36):
To kind of fend for herself.
With her aunt.
Yeah, with her aunt.
And then he.
Typical guy who's just runningaround, marries Nancy McCoy.
So he does marry a McCoy.
It's a cousin of Rosanna whohappens to be the daughter of Asa
McCoy.
From the very beginning.
The very beginning.
Crazy, right?
So it's like, what?
Like, so when you start tofind these locations, they are very
(29:57):
close together, and you'relike, okay, I can see how this is
getting complicated now.
We're still at one death forone death, but we're starting to
get more complicated now.
A baby's brought into the picture.
Johnny did marry McCoy.
Right.
So.
So what's the next thing thatkind of takes it to the next level?
So we're back at the cabin,the Hog trial cabin.
(30:27):
It's election day in Kentucky.
That's right.
Everyone's coming out.
1882.
This is almost.
Almost 20 years after the endof the Civil war.
Yep.
Yeah.
20 years after the Civil War.
Again, a gathering.
Everyone comes back to the hogtrial cabin because it's the justice
of the peace cabin.
And it's kind of in that area.
It's.
It's central ish.
It's central ish.
(30:47):
And it's where the election'sbeing held, where the boxes, right.
You write on your ballot andyou put in the box, only men can
vote.
This is still only the men, right?
So the women are there like,yay, I'll make a pie, and my man
will vote.
You know, it's a big event.
It's a big event.
So Jonesy has a.
Has a still, which a lot ofthe people did this.
(31:09):
It's Kentucky.
This is moonshine.
And.
And start.
Get.
Start drinking.
And the younger brothers ofRosanna are still pissed about everything
that happened with John Z.
And their sister.
She's since had the baby.
And they start messing aroundand pushing around ants brother.
(31:32):
His big brother.
Or actually, no, his littlebrother, but a brother who he really
loved.
Ellison.
Ellison Hatfield has a sonnamed Cotton.
Ellison is a good guy.
He's trying to stop theescalation of these brothers.
They're getting mad at John Z.Ellison's kind of like, leave him
alone.
Yeah.
(31:52):
So Ellison comes in andbasically break up the fight.
Break up the fight.
And Tolbert, Farmer, And Bud,the three younger brothers of Rosanna,
the McCoys kill Ellison.
Not right away.
They stab him 26 times andshoot him.
I mean, they.
They.
He doesn't die right away.
And because.
So initially, Anne's Hatfieldarrests them.
(32:16):
And he says, if my brotherdies, I'm gonna kill you.
And so.
So he actually has them and hearrests him.
Like, it's not like he doesn'ttake him to the county jail.
Like, he's holding them on his land.
On his land.
He basically is like a groupof vigilantes.
And he.
He won't let them be taken to Pikeville.
And the McCoy family tries.
(32:38):
Randall McCoy tries to getthem taken.
Failed to stand trial.
He's trying to get themlegally to Pikeville, which as you
see is probably about 20minutes away.
Yeah, for us driving.
Yes, but imagine in a wagon or something.
But the brothers are taken byforce by ants and they, they're held
(32:59):
up.
And then when Ellison dies,all three of the brothers are killed
by the Hatfields.
They're tied to these pawpawtrees and shot numerous times.
A total 50 shots were fired.
Their bodies were bullet riddled.
And soon you can go to thosepaw paw trees.
They are close.
We didn't go there.
It's one place we didn't go.
You can walk over to them.
That's where that Hadfield guywas saying he owns the land.
(33:21):
He owns that land, which.
But you can go visit there ifyou want to.
It's pretty close to the hogtrial cabin and you can just basically
walk out into the clearing andyou can see where they were tied
to the trees and shot.
Yeah.
So now, now things are justkind of out of control now.
Now things are out of controlbecause these three, they killed
Ellison.
(33:42):
Then the Hatfields come back,take these three, they.
They kill these three.
I mean, just line them up andshoot them.
And now things, now things areout of control.
This is when Randall McCoy, Imean, of course he's going to be
so upset.
His sons are killed.
Three of his sons, like theoldest, are all killed.
So he tries to get a lawyer,Perry Klein.
(34:05):
So you're going to hear PerryKlein's name a couple times as well,
to arrest the Hatfields forbasically acting as vigilantes and
killing his sons.
And even though people in thearea believe this revenge is warranted.
Right.
There's about 20 people whoare indicted, including ants on this.
(34:26):
But all of the Hatfield deludearrest, that also angers McCoy because
no one can prove anything.
No one's going to testifyagainst each other.
Right.
And so McCoy gets even moreupset about all of that.
So is this when he calls inthe gun for hire?
Yes.
And so I'll also talk a littlebit about the graves of those three
(34:48):
sons before we get any further.
Across from the well of theHatfield house, across from the well
from the McCoy house, thethree Hatfield Boyds were buried.
And there's a marker when youpark into the parking lot to walk
over to the McCoy well wherethe cabin was.
It'll say McCoy Cemetery.
(35:11):
It's not in the right locationbecause you can't go visit the graves.
It's not public.
It's not public.
Why?
Because a Hatfield owns theland now where the McCoy boys are
buried and because a Hatfieldowns the land, they don't want people
to go and visit it.
I mean, we laughed at the feudtoday is no longer going on, but
in some regard it is now.
(35:32):
Is that the one that a judgeruled that at least once a year family
can go.
Family can go and visit the graves.
Yes.
So when you talk to the well guy.
Yes.
The McCoy family once a yearis allowed to go onto the land and
visit the graves of the three boys.
But the public, you and Icouldn't go there and visit their
(35:54):
grave.
So that's one place you can't go.
Yeah, it's private land.
Yeah.
And again, that is a big partof the story.
So.
But you can't go there.
McCoy feels like he can't getjustice and Perry Klein, the lawyer
(36:15):
who at some point tried to sueHatfield for his land, but was caught
in some.
Kind of doing it sketchy or something.
Yeah, it wasn't right.
He was.
He was doing something that wasn't.
It was definitely fraud andHatfield caught him.
So Perry Klein was kind ofupset that he was caught in his wrongdoings.
(36:36):
They.
They hire a man to come in andbasically catch Hadfield and this
bad Frank Phillips.
Bad Frank Phillips is brought in.
You're going to get McCoys andHatfield who are basically trying
to tie up loose ends and covertheir stories and cover their tracks.
Hatfield kind of goes intohiding on his land, won't let anybody
(36:58):
on his land.
He doesn't know very afraid ofwhat repercussions could happen to
him.
Well, and.
And part of it, if I rememberfrom the miniseries and you were
saying that it was prettyaccurate, but bag Frank Phillips
is hired by the McCoys to kindof go.
And they.
I think in the miniseries theysay, hey, go and arrest them and
bring them over to this sideso they can stand trial.
(37:19):
But they've Hatfields have itso locked up on their property that
they can't go over.
And bad Frank Phillips againin the miniseries, had this reputation
of being a little bit of a.
Of a wild, you know, wild kindof gun for hire.
And rather than trying toarrest, he just, you know, ended
up starting to kill some people.
(37:40):
Yeah, he started to killcousins of the Hatfields.
That made Anne's Hadfield moremad, I would say.
Anderson Hadfield, old Anne'sHadfield, understood the predicament
he was in and maybe didn'tagree that what he was doing was
orthodox, but once his familymembers start to get killed, he feels
(38:04):
like he has to be the one torectify the situation.
And it deserves his, itdeserves someone else to be killed
for.
A family member has beenkilled even if he wasn't in the right.
Yeah.
You could tell that KevinCostner's character, who's Dev Lance.
Right.
Devil Ants Hatfield was, was torn.
He did a good job ofportraying the hey, this needs to
(38:26):
de.
Escalate but ultimately isjust pushed across the line to defend
his family rather than takethe high road.
Be able to take the high roadand, and bring things, you know,
back down to normalcy.
And so they really play thatup and eventually even him.
Devilance Hatfield, you know,Kevin Costner's character is just
(38:48):
like okay, that's it, we're done.
Like this is, this is usversus you and I am on the Hatfield
side kind of no matter what.
Yes.
So it's at this point that theHatfields are so sick and tired of
being afraid that they fight back.
And it reaches, I would saythe feud reaches its peak here.
(39:10):
And this is why the McCoycabin no longer exists.
This is 1888, it's New Year'sEve and Vance, crazy, crazy uncle.
Crazy uncle with Cotton WoosEllison's son.
And he in the show, he has thename Cotton because he's most likely
simple minded.
(39:30):
Yeah.
Simple minded, right.
Yeah.
And so.
And I think that's even trueto life.
Yeah.
They treat him like Cotton.
Yeah.
But, but again loved within.
Within the Hatfield side.
And they, but slow.
Slow.
Right.
His mental capacity is, is diminished.
And so they.
The Hatfields surround them aquake cabin.
So it's Sarah and Randall withall their children.
(39:53):
So boys and girls and Cottonis told to go around back and if
anyone tries to leave from theback, shoot him.
Right.
So they're, they're coming forhim and his, his wife, you know,
and they're standing outsidethe cabin yelling for him to come
out and she says don't.
She sends him out the back andhe escapes before Cotton gets there
(40:15):
and he had run off.
And then she starts sendingthe, the daughters, the girls out
and that's when Cotton kind ofshoots one of the dogs.
So her idea is if they don'tthink you're home, they'll leave
us alone.
Right.
So if you run.
Because if you go out there,they're just going to kill you.
So if you run and pretend likeyou're not here, they'll leave us
alone.
Well, they don't leave themAlone, they end up killing two of
the boys and they beat Sarah,almost killing her by Vance and Johnsy.
(40:39):
And then they burn the cabin down.
Then they burn the cabin down.
And like I said, one of thedaughters is killed.
So the remaining McCoys willmove to Pikeville.
Like in the city.
In the city.
And the, the.
That McCoy house is there.
Yeah, it's like a restaurant.
It's a restaurant now, so wevisit there.
So like I said, there arethings you're going to want to see
in Pikeville.
That McCoy house is after thefire of 1888, is where they move
(41:03):
and live.
They spend the rest of theirlives there in Pikeville.
That's the thing you're goingto want to see in the city.
So after that, Cotton is goingto be arrested and stand trial for
the murder and he's foundguilty and he's hanged in the square
of Pikeville.
(41:24):
So that's another place youcan visit in the city of Pikeville.
And it's not like he was takenat night and hanged.
He was like, this is a public execution.
A public execution.
Ellison Cottontop Mounts wasexecuted by hanging and buried in
an unmarked grave.
And if I remember correctly,this is kind of the thing that finally
ends it, you know, at least asfar as the events go, is everybody's
(41:45):
out there from both sides ofthe family as well as the rest of
the public.
And, and he's hanged.
And then that, that kind oftakes the wind out of the sails of
both sides because everybody,at least again in the miniseries
kind of sees like, okay, thiscan't continue on.
The two McCoys that are killedare a son and the daughter.
(42:05):
And so it's on August 24,1888, that eight of the Hatfields
and their friends are indictedfor the murder of the daughter at
a fair.
She was killed during the massacre.
And those included Cap, JohnZ. Robert and Elliot Hatfield, Ellison
Mounts, Frank Ellis, CharlesGipsy and Thomas Chambers.
But only Cotton is executed.
(42:27):
The rest of them will spendlife in prison.
Those sent to prison,Valentine Hatfield, elder brother
of Anst.
Doc Madden, son in law of theHatfield and another son in law,
14 years in prison.
(42:49):
So this is basically the end.
This is where again, afterCotton is hanged, the feud dies out
also, they believe because theMcCoys moved to Pikeville and they're
far enough away from theHatfields that this feud dies out.
There's nothing after this.
There's no real back and forth.
The fighting between thefamily ceased after the hanging.
(43:10):
But the trials continue until 1901.
Trial of John Z sentenced tolife imprisonment for his involvement
in the year New Year Massacre.
So John Z.
Will have life in prison.
And so then you get like themodern era.
In 1979, Family Feud had theHatfields and the McCoys on the family
Feud.
Oh, did they really?
Yeah, they did.
(43:30):
Like there was a cash prizeand a pig kept on stage during the
game.
Right.
And the Hatfield family wonmore money than the McCoys.
Now, I think you said it inthe video, it was the early 2000s.
Eventually both families kindof came together and signed something
that said, hey, this, thisfeud is done.
Yeah.
So they did a joint familyreunion in 2000.
(43:52):
It garnered national attention.
5,000 people attended.
And that's when they basicallysigned a truce.
Yeah, I mean, kind of it wasceremonial, but it actually, it,
it meant something.
It meant something.
I mean, we.
Do you still have the issuewith the graveyard, right.
That happened in 2002.
A lawsuit about thatgraveyard, which is when just they
(44:14):
can be visited once a year.
But there is pretty much atruce between the families now.
And now they do like a bighalf a McCoy festival.
It's a three day weekend in June.
People come and visit.
Other things you can go andsee that we went and see is you definitely
want to see the graves.
So in the city of Pikeville,you want to go see the McCoy graves.
(44:38):
You can see Randall, Sarah and Rosanna.
And that was near like a firestation, if I remember correct.
You have to park across the street.
Across the street.
And it's a walk, so it'sdefinitely not somebody who is in
a wheelchair or can't do stairs.
It's not access, it's nothandicap accessible.
It's basically straight upwith a bunch of stairs and.
(44:58):
But it's neat to see theirgraves there.
You can also visit theHatfield graveyard, that's farther
out.
Old roads.
We didn't go all the way outto that.
We went to a park that kind oftold the stories of the Hatfields,
McCoys.
It was, it was very neat.
And I encourage folkslistening to this if you, if you
like this story.
The video actually did prettywell for us.
(45:19):
It's a good video.
We took some time to make it.
And we show all theselocations, we show some maps so you
get a feel for where inVirginia and West Virginia, Kentucky
area that, that we're at, aswell as this kind of memorial to
both sides of the family.
Yeah.
And in case you werewondering, Rosanna's baby doesn't
make it past one year old.
She dies.
(45:39):
She has a little girl so youcan also visit Aunt Betty's house
and Rosanna's baby's gravesite, that's in Goody, Kentucky.
All of these locations are onthe driving.
So when you.
When you see the driving tour,you can see how out in the middle
of Kentucky, West Virginia you are.
(46:00):
And again, you're not going tohave great cell phone coverage.
So again, I remind you toplease download the locations beforehand
or take the map with you.
Perry Klein's gravesite isavailable to you if you want to see
that as well.
And the Cotton Top hangingsite, again, you can go to the Pawpaw
Trees.
(46:20):
And then last but not least,you can go to Devil Hatfield's monument
at his grave site.
There's a statue of him thereas you can go and visit that as well.
There's some other places offthe beaten path.
You know, Bad Frank Phillips,his grave is out there.
He ends up marrying Nancy.
That's right.
Who was married to John Z. Yeah.
(46:41):
Even he did that dude in theshow, too.
Yeah.
And he was again, the daughterof the very first person who was
killed.
So I talk about this like thiswas very much as you.
As you start to visit thesesites and go to these locations,
they're not far away from eachother enough that you can see how
these families are so intertwined.
And this feud is long term.
But what has happened withthese two names is they're synonymous
(47:06):
now with any kind of feud, family.
Any sort of family feud, any family.
Feud, any feud between twopeople that maybe were close at one
time and now are not.
Maybe a few that's left lasteda couple years.
Maybe a feud that is deeplyingrained in you when you're like,
I hate him, like the hatfieldshit the McCoy, like something that
is deeply seated in you.
It's used in that vernacular now.
(47:28):
It's become a part of ourAmerican psyche, this Hatfield and
McCoy feud.
So it was really neat to goout there and to visit and to see
it, to understand it better,to kind of give these people more
agency and to understand theirlives a little bit more.
But I was really honored to gothere to talk to the people.
And like I said, the feud isnot a hateful thing anymore.
(47:53):
Everybody talks about itpretty much with a smile on their
face.
They're very open.
They talk about everything andopenly and happily.
So it really is now just a.
If you're coming to ask aboutit, you're considered kin.
You're considered part ofAmerica because it's something that
it belongs to all of us now.
It's all of our story.
Yeah, even though there arethose with the name still today,
(48:15):
it's.
It's more local legend than itreally is anything else.
Well, that's all the time wehave for this episode on the Hatfield
McCoy feud.
A bloody mess, wasn't it?
Lives lost, families fracturedall over.
(48:36):
What started as a squabbleover a pig.
Hard to believe, ain't it?
The feud finally sputtered outand around the turn of the century,
but its echoes still linger inthese hills.
Sure, The Hatfields and McCoysain't shooting each other anymore,
but there's a wariness, adistance, that time hasn't quite
healed.
(48:57):
Some folks say it's acautionary tale, a reminder of how
easily a spark can turn into a bonfire.
Others say it's a testament tothe the stubborn pride that runs
deep in these Appalachian veins.
Maybe it's both.
Whatever the case, theHatfield McCoy feud is a story that's
woven into the fabric of this place.
A story of violence, yes, butalso of resilience, of families clinging
(49:21):
to their own versions of the truth.
It's a reminder of the darkside of human nature, but also the
enduring strength of the human spirit.
What a story, right?
Did you catch the part abouthow Doc McCoy from Star Trek is supposed
to be related to theseAmerican legends?
(49:42):
Those are some of my favoritethings I learned from this episode.
What about you?
This has been Walking withHistory production.
Talk With History is createdand hosted by me, Scott Benny.
Episode researched by Jennifer Benny.
(50:03):
Check out the show notes forlinks and references mentioned in
this episode.
Talk with History is supportedby our fans@thehistoryroadtrip.com
our maternal thanks go out tothose providing funding to help keep
us going.
Thank you to Doug McLiberty,Larry Myers, Patrick Benny, Gale
Cooper, Krista Coates, andCalvin Gifford.
(50:23):
Make sure you hit that followbutton in that podcast player and
we'll talk to you next time.
Welcome to Talk with History.
I am your host Scott, and mywife and historian Jen and I are
taking a couple weeks off aswe gear up for some fantastic new
content.
Coming.
I thought I would revisit someof our most popular podcast episodes
during our break.
And of course, our journeythrough the hollers of Kentucky came
to mind.
Yes, the infamous Hatfieldsand McCoys episode.
(00:22):
Jen has actually guested onother podcasts to speak specifically
about our experience in thisnow legendary family feud.
She covers how this feud roseout of the ashes of the Civil War
and the stranger than fictionhistorical events and even how we
had our own encounter with aHatfield descendant right there in
Pikeville, Kentucky.
(00:52):
Even the crickets here in theholler hold their breath sometimes.
You can feel it in the air, atension thicker than summer humidity.
Hatfields and McCoys, theysay, been at it since before the
war.
Those two families.
My pappy used to tell storiesabout Devilance Hatfield, meanest
son of a gun this side of The Mississippi.
(01:13):
Had 13 kids, all cut from thesame honorary cloth.
Over on the Kentucky sidethere was Randolph McCoy ol Ranall,
they used to call him.
Same story.
A brood of boys itching for a fight.
It all started with the pig.
Some folks say stolen or notstolen, depending on who you ask.
(01:33):
But that was just the spark.
The real fire came later.
With guns blazing across theTug Fork.
Men dying over land and pride.
My cousin Asa, poor fellacaught in the crossfire.
Left a hole in our familythat'll never mend.
This here's the story of theHatfield McCoy feud, a saga of hatred
and revenge that tore thesehills apart.
(01:56):
We'll meet the families, hearthe gunshots echo through the hollers
and see if there's any truthto the whispers of a star crossed
love affair that bloomed inthe shadow of all that hate.
So pull up a chair by the firecause this ain't gonna be a pretty
tale, but it's one worth hearing.
(02:17):
Welcome to Talk with History.
I'm your host Scott, here withmy wife and historian Jen.
Hello.
On this podcast we give youinsights to our history Inspired
World Travels YouTube channelJourney and examine history through
deeper conversations with thecurious, the explorers and the history
lovers out there.
And John, I'm just going tojump right into it.
We are talking about a verypopular, very famous family feud
(02:43):
about the Hatfield McCoys.
Yes, we're going to go rightinto American folklore that happens
to be based in actual history.
Yeah, and this was kind of afun one because you and I got some
time away from the kids, Mymom was watching the kids.
And so we just kind of headeddue west and started driving out
towards the Kentucky, Virginiaborder area.
(03:04):
Did some other history topicswe've talked about before, but we
discovered we were in HatfieldMcCoy country.
And it was amazing because wealways wanted to do this story.
So being there, we just tookfull advantage of it and we started
at the visitor center, whichis the best place to go in Pikeville,
(03:26):
Kentucky.
Yeah, that was.
It was.
I'm so happy that we stoppedthere first because we really got
the best kind of lay of theland advice that you could get, you
could ask for.
And honestly, we both say it.
After that trip, we, we saidthe nicest people we have met on
our history travels throughAmerica were in Kentucky.
They were amazing.
(03:46):
They were.
They were so friendly, like,because sometimes you feel a little
bit like an interloper goingaround, especially with the camera.
You're saying, hey, I'mlooking for this, I'm looking for
that.
Not there.
No.
They were so welcoming and open.
They treated us like family.
It was truly amazing.
So I would say if you're goingto do any Hatfield and McCoy travel
(04:08):
exploring, start in thevisitor center in Pikeville, Kentucky.
And there's a couple reasonsyou want to start there.
First of all, it's a coollittle town.
A lot of the history of theHatfields McCoys happens in Pikeville,
Kentucky.
But you're going to get thebest Internet coverage there.
And we're going to talk aboutthat because once you start exploring
(04:28):
outside of Pikeville, you'rein the hollers, you're in the backwoods
roads of West Virginia and Kentucky.
You're right along the borderthere, and you're going to lose your
Internet coverage.
So if you're trying to findspecific locations, you won't be
able to GPS them or look themup on your Google Maps or whatever.
(04:49):
You use Apple Maps, you won'tbe able to use it.
So at the visitor center, youcan get a free brochure.
It's the Hatfields and McCoyshistoric feud driving Tour.
And again, this was in Pikeville.
Pikeville, okay.
Kentucky, at the visitorcenter there.
And it's located at 831 HamblyBoulevard in Pikeville, Kentucky.
(05:13):
So it was a great guy therewho helped us.
He was so.
He was so open and friendly.
He kept telling us how Chriscomes in all the time and you know,
Chris Love loves it here.
And I'm looking at him like,who, Chris?
Who?
Who are you talking about?
I don't.
I don't know.
I know many Chris.
Yeah.
And I'm like, o.
And he's talking about Chris Stapleton.
(05:35):
Who.
The country music singer who.
We have his record behind usin our podcast, Traveler, because
we love his music.
We love the bluegrass, we lovethe sound of it.
And I guess Chris Stapleton isfrom Pikeville, Kentucky.
There was a couple otherpretty well known actors.
Patty Loveless is from there,Dwight Yoakum.
I think they call it like thatwas it country music highway through
(05:56):
there.
But also there was an actor.
Most folks wouldn't quite knowhis name yet, but he's been in some
really big stuff on Netflix.
He was in, like at the new.
New version of Justified.
He was also in Hatfields McCoys.
That's right.
He played one of the McCoys.
No, he plays one of the Hatfields.
One of the Hatfields.
Yeah, he plays the sun.
He's from that area.
(06:16):
He's from that area.
It's really cool.
And so, yeah, you're gonna get.
It's close to Loretta Lynn'shouse, too.
So a lot of people will go tothe visitor center to get information
about visiting Loretta Lynn's cabin.
We have a whole episode onthat, where you go, where you get
your tickets, who you talk to,if you want to visit there.
A lot of people will get thatinformation also from center.
(06:37):
So that visitor center isgreat for that.
And also if you're going to dothe Hatfields McCoys, get the driving
tour, you're going to wantthat brochure because it gives you
step by step instructionsafter you get out of the city.
And you're not going to haveyour gps.
And it's nice too, because youcan sit there and kind of plan it
out ahead of time because thedriving tour could probably, if you
do the whole thing, it'llprobably take you all day, but you
(07:00):
can in advance kind of pickand choose the spots you want to
go, how much driving youactually want to do.
Plus, you can actually startthere in Pikeville at the, at the,
the city courthouse.
There's.
There's a little museum therethat's all about the Hatfield McCoys
as well as some other stuff inthe area.
Yeah.
So it's the historiccourthouse where they were put on
trial.
The second floor courtroom hasnow become a museum.
(07:24):
And we went over there firstand we actually met an actual Hatfield.
Yeah.
So we were.
I, I told the story to acouple folks.
We were driving around lookingfor parking near the courthouse,
and I pull up next to ahospital and we pull up next to this
hospital.
(07:44):
We couldn't tell if it washospital only parking or if we could
park there.
And a security guard walks up,he's an older gentleman, probably
in his early 60s, and he says, hey.
He'd say, hey, can I help you guys?
And we said, hey, we'relooking for parking.
You know, we're trying to goto the courthouse.
And so he had kind of pointedus off in another direction just
a little, you know, just alittle ways away.
And then you saw his name tag.
And his name Tad saidHatfield, said Hatfield.
(08:07):
And so I asked him, yeah, areyou Hatfield?
Are you related to Devil an Hatfield?
And he said, yeah, it's mygreat uncle.
And he actually owns the landwhere they had the feud and the kid,
the boys with the border,where the boys were shot, where the
McCoy boys was shot.
And we're going to get intoeverything that happened.
(08:27):
And he even said to us too,he's like, I guess the Hatfields
won in the end.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
I know, we just laugh.
We're like, okay, yeah, Imean, he was, he was very kind.
He was very joking about it,very jovial.
But yeah, we told him.
We're like, oh my gosh, we'rehere to go see some of the sites
and visit some of the locations.
He's like, and he told usthat, that little bit.
But only in Pikeville, Kentucky.
(08:49):
Yes.
Would you be driving aroundand just randomly run into one of
the Hatfields, one of thedescendants of the Hatfields I know.
Who actually lives on the land.
Who actually lives on the land.
So that was pretty cool.
So let's, what we're going todo is like, let's talk about what
happened, the historic whathappened, and then we'll talk about
what you can see.
Because in the city ofPikeville you can see a couple things
(09:10):
that are like the middle ofthe story and the end of the story.
And you might be confused ifyou don't know the story.
Why would I.
What is this place?
Why would.
I don't want to mention itright away.
So I rather mention it inorder of it, how it happened.
But if you're going to driveand visit, you're not going to.
You'd be ping ponging all overthe place to do that.
You would want to go toeverywhere in Pikeville and then
(09:32):
start to branch out.
So I will.
Let's do the whole story andthen I'll tell you where you can
go visit.
I also want to talk about.
There's a lot of popularityaround the Hatfields and McQuarrie's
because of the miniseries thatcame out with Kevin Costner and Bill
Paxton.
Bill Paxton, that's right.
I will say that miniseries isvery accurate if you want to watch
(09:54):
it.
We actually watched it.
I actually watched it while wewere there.
Again, because I hadn't seenit in years.
Yeah, I think I watched itafter the fact.
Yes.
Yeah, it's very well acted.
They actually filmed on location.
Oh, did they?
So all of those same places,they look just like that.
And they're very accurate withhow they tell the story and the timeline
(10:17):
of the story.
They do a very good job.
So if you're interested inunderstanding more about the nuances
of the story and how thingsare really interconnected and these
families who just couldn'tseem to get enough of each other,
watch that miniseries.
It's a three part miniseries.
It's fantastic.
It's.
It's really good.
And that just.
That just goes to show howincredible and almost like how crazy
(10:40):
the true life story is thatthey didn't have to change much to
make it, you know, to Hollywood.
Ready?
Yeah.
It's.
Truth is stranger than fiction.
And remember, this is reallyplayed into American folklore.
When you think about Star Trekand Doc McCoy is related to the McCoys.
Like, this is supposed to bevery interactive into our American
(11:02):
culture now, which it is thisHatfield and McCoy feud.
But it all goes back to reallythe biggest feud of America.
It all really starts with theCivil War.
Yeah.
So talk to me a little bitabout how The Hatfields and McCoys
(11:25):
were involved in the Civil Warand why that kind of was the genesis.
So we're really dealing hereon the border of Kentucky and Virginia
before it becomes WestVirginia, because West Virginia is
a product of the Civil War.
West Virginia is not a statebefore the Civil War.
But because there are so manypeople who are anti Confederacy in
(11:48):
Virginia, they really breakaway to start their own state and
say, we want to be a Union state.
We want to be part of the Union.
We don't want to be part ofthis Confederacy.
That was West Virginia that.
That said that.
Yes.
Okay.
And made their own state, West Virginia.
So here we have this borderwhere the Hatfields are on one side,
the McCoys are on the other.
(12:09):
The Hatfields are WestVirginian and the McCoys are Kentucky.
And they.
That's where you're going toget a lot of families and brothers
who are going to fight foreither side.
Because when you think aboutit, this is a.
This is where the WestVirginians are going to break away
because they want pro union.
So you're going to getfamilies and brothers who are like,
(12:31):
I, I side with Kentucky.
I side with Virginia, henceWest Virginia.
So that.
That kind of is what happenshere now, not with the patriarchs.
That when we really talk aboutthe Hatfields and McCoys, there's
two head men of these families.
You're going to get WilliamAnderson Hatfield Devil ants on the
Hatfield side, and then you'regoing to get Randall, Old Randall
(12:52):
McCoy on the McCoy side.
They both fight for the Confederacy.
They both fight together forthe Confederacy.
Yeah.
And in the miniseries, that's.
That is Kevin Costner and Bill Paxton.
Yes.
They both feel like it's theirduty now.
McCoy really feels like it'shis duty.
He wants to stay.
Hatfield Devil Ants starts tosee the Confederacy losing and feels
(13:15):
like it's a losing fight, andhe doesn't want to die for a lost
cause.
So he.
He basically leaves early andgoes back to his land.
Probably leaves like.
Like a year or two before theend of the war.
Before the end of the war.
And goes back to his land.
And then he's able to starthis business up and really get more
solid business.
Yeah, they do, like logging alot of land stuff.
(13:38):
Yes.
But before McCoy can even getback home.
And that's.
That's Bill Paxton.
That's Bill Paxton.
And so you see McCoy kind of.
Resentful of that fact,because doesn't he get captured?
He does get captured at one point.
And so he has to survive.
He's a prisoner of war, prison of.
Work, which, if you knowanything about Civil War prisoners
of war, both sides were horrible.
(13:58):
You can't even say the southwas worse than the North.
They both treated theirprisoners terrible.
But that's not really wherethe feud starts.
They're friends.
They're kind of.
McCoy's kind of pissed atHatfield because he left early.
Left early.
Mad at him.
But that's not the feud.
(14:19):
It starts this whole feud.
And if people like to say itwas the pig trial, the pig trial
is really where it kind ofgets really dug in.
But the feud really startswith A brother of McCoy, Asa Harmon
McCoy, who served in the Union.
So here you got brothers whoare serving for two separate sides.
(14:44):
And Asa comes back home, he'sbeen captured.
He served time in aConfederate prisoner of war camp.
He comes back home.
He's not even home for 13 daysbefore he is killed.
And he's killed January 7, 1865.
So this is really before theend of the war.
(15:05):
He serves time and he Gets outearly and he comes back and it's
Jim Vance.
James Vance is the uncle ofold ants.
So he's a Hatfield.
That's Tom Behringer in the.
In the mini series who playsit so well.
He's phenomenal.
So Tom Behringer plays KevinCostner's uncle.
Uncle, Right.
Crazy.
(15:26):
Yeah, the crazy.
This is like, you think aboutthe crazy uncle.
This is back then, like, youknow, West Virginia.
Yeah.
Crazy.
Crazy uncle.
Crazy uncle who's a rebel.
Yeah.
Right.
He believes in the rebel cause.
So here comes a McCoy homethat fought for the Union.
And he's mad.
Not.
Not only that, he, like, getcaptured as a prisoner of war, and
he gets out and now he's back home.
(15:48):
This is for the end of the war.
He's mad.
So 13 days later, he's killed.
And so this is what starts the feud.
A McCoy is killed by the Hatfield.
Yeah.
And that's kind of what I wasreferring to as, like, I'll call
it time traveling.
Scotty, that did the introthere, right?
When you say, like, my cousin Asa.
Yeah.
You know, because I had.
There were so many brothersand sisters.
There's so much family on each side.
(16:11):
That really was the firstevent that really kicked off this
feud.
Yes.
And when you think about it,there's these huge families, these
huge networks of families.
Right.
And that's who does all your farming.
That's who you.
That's who does all yourbusiness with.
It's like you have six orseven brothers and sisters, and then
they have six or sevenbrothers and sisters,.
(16:32):
And they have.
So you have these hugefamilies on either side.
It doesn't mean they didn't intermarry.
They.
Tedfield's McCoy certainlyintermarried, but they had these
strong family ties through thepatriarch line.
And it's the McCoy brotherwho's killed by the Hatfield uncle
that starts this whole thing.
And we go to that locationthat is outside of the city.
(16:55):
It's by this little school, Ithink it's called BlackBerry.
Yeah.
Then there's a marker there.
There's a marker there.
That's a great place to be.
Like, this is where it all started.
And you're going to get like,this feud is going to last a while
because his widow starts tokind of.
She starts to needle her way into.
With lawyers and things like that.
(17:17):
So this is going to start thewhole feud.
I mean, the feud kind of goeson for a few decades.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
So, I mean, it's going to be13 years later when this hog Trial
happens.
So that's the first thing that happens.
It's not publicized that itwas Jim Vance that did it.
Family tradition points to him.
He's part of that WestVirginia militia group that is the
(17:39):
rebels that did that.
The application for his wife'spension from the Union said he was
killed by rebels.
So that's kind of like howpeople have paced that together.
There's no existing recordspertaining to his death.
There's no death record.
But when she's goes for the pension.
Killed by rebels is what it says.
And so, and I think even someof the markers don't specifically
(18:00):
call out the Hatfield, butthey, they call out the group, but
it's, it's, it's implied.
Was a leader of the group.
So, so McCoy comes back fromthe end of the war.
So this happens in January 1865.
McCoy comes back the end ofthe war, and he starts to hear rumblings
and he's not.
(18:21):
Not only is he mad thatHatfield old anst has left early
and been able to kind of keephis family going where McCoy family
has basically just reallybarely gotten by now he's here rumblings
that his brother was killed by Hadfield.
So he just kind of is, isupset about it, bitter about it,
(18:43):
bitter about it, but goesabout his business and starts to
build their life back.
So if you go to the McCoywell, which is again on the outskirts
of Pikeville, but it's a greatplace to visit.
They have a guy who livesthere who loves giving tours.
Yeah, if you drive up and ifthe guys, you know, there's a gentleman
(19:07):
that lives right near thewell, which is where their old home
was.
But if his, if his garage isopen and he's out, he'll come right
up to you and come talking to you.
He came and she said, hey,come look at this stuff.
I have my garage.
And we were like, excuse me.
But like, Kevin Costner wentand visited there.
He, he said he used to likegive tours and stuff.
So it's Vandal McCoy's.
Well, it's in Hardy, Kentucky.
(19:28):
So this is where McCoy's homewas and this is where the pig was.
And so the pig gets markedwith the McCoy mark, which is basically
two notches out of its ear,wanders away onto the hill.
So if you stand on at theMcCoy well, which was behind their
house where they got theirwater, now they make alcohol.
(19:48):
From there you can buy theMcCoy, well, alcohol, moonshine or
whatever.
If you look up, you can seelike a hill.
That's where the pig wanderedonto the hill.
And that was Hatfield land.
Not old ants Hatfield land,but one of his cousins land.
And so what happens is thatthat pig has gotten over there and
(20:09):
the cousin Floyd Hatfieldclaimed it was his hog and he's taking
it to slaughter.
Walks by Randall McCoy andMcCoy looks at his ears and says,
those are McCoy marks, notHatfield marks.
And Floyd says, that pig hasbeen on my land for a couple years
now, and it's mine.
And.
And McCoy's like, that pigwandered away from my house like
(20:33):
three or four years ago.
We just thought.
We just thought it.
Something happened to it, like.
But you kept it.
That's my pig.
Yeah.
So they start arguing over whoowns this pig.
They start arguing who ownsthis pig.
And you.
You drove home too, and Ithink you made it into the video
about how valuable those hogswere, especially at that time.
At that time, it's your livelihood.
Yeah.
It's feeding your family.
(20:54):
Basically you could see it asRandall McCoy felt the Hatfields
was stealing food from hisfamily's mouths.
Yeah.
It was that bad.
You're stealing another man.
And that.
And that's why things startedto get so heated.
Yes.
This happens in 1878.
So this is 13 years after Asais killed.
So McCoy has let this festerfor 13 years.
(21:15):
Right.
He hasn't brought anything up.
I don't think he's beenperfect, particularly friendly to
the Hatfields, but I mean,they're still neighbors and.
But he.
Now he's mad.
He takes it to the justice ofthe peace and he wants.
He wants justice.
And the justice of the peaceis Anderson Hatfield.
(21:36):
So it's.
It's.
It's old and it's cousin.
Yeah, it's one of his cousins.
Yes.
And so.
And he's a well educated man,knows the law, but he's also from
Kentucky and he also in WestVirginia, he's also Hatfield and
he understands family almostmatters more than the law.
(21:57):
And so you can go to the cabinwhere this trial takes place.
And I would recommend that is a.
That is a place you want to go.
Yeah, that was really coolbecause you're driving through, you
know, just to kind of stepback and.
And set the scene of where we are.
Like, one of the things that Ikind of wondered before we got out
there is like, what's a holler?
Well, it's a bunch of littlemini valleys.
(22:19):
Right.
You're driving through, and itis beautiful land out there.
It's absolutely gorgeousdriving through these hollers.
Like when we went up tobutcher hauler to Loretta Lynn and
driving through these hollerswas really cool.
So you really feel, feel likeyou're there and then you come down
and I think it's near like apost office.
Yeah, it's right beside it.
Maar, Kentucky.
Yeah.
And so you drive up and theyhad recreated the, the cabin there.
(22:42):
And so I think they call itthe Pig Trail Hog Trial Cabin.
And you know, it's, it's ingood shape.
You know, I, I'm sure atcertain times of the year you might
be able to go inside.
We weren't able to.
Yes.
Look in the windows.
And there's other things thataren't actually too far from that,
from that cabin.
Some other markers that we'lltalk about a little bit.
But it was just, it wasbeautiful time of year.
We were there in October andit was so neat to do.
(23:05):
And if you're thinking about,considering about going on these
driving tour, I highly recommend.
This is one of your stops.
Yeah, it's in, it's called thePreacher Ants Hatfield Hog Trial
Cabin and its location, itjust gives you like a County Road.
319, Makar, Kentucky.
And that's kind of how you'regoing to have to get around there.
It really is like these oldcountry roads.
(23:32):
So this is what the trial isgoing to take place.
Now, I will say the UncleAnderson, Preacher Anderson tried
to make it, tried to make it just.
He tried to put half of theHatfields on the jury and half of
the McCoys on the jury.
The problem was that One ofthe McCoys was married to Hatfield.
(23:54):
And like I said, these,they're intermarried.
And so he was kind of arelative of both families.
And he said that he didn't, hedidn't think that that mark was a
McCoy mark.
And so that kind of pushed it.
And so Anderson Hatfield ruledin favor of the Hatfields.
Right.
So he sided with his wife'sside, which was the Hatfield side.
Yep.
And so that, that makes McCoyeven more mad.
(24:19):
Like finally he's like, Ididn't get justice for my brother.
Nobody cares.
I didn't get justice for my pig.
Nobody cares.
And so this is when the sons,the McCoy sons start getting involved,
start getting involved, theyreally start to get upset.
So Hatfield has a couple sons,McCoy has a couple sons.
Everyone's have like 10 kidsand daughters, right?
(24:40):
Daughters.
So Randall McCoy.
Right.
Who's the patriarch of theMcCoy side, his sons start getting
involved and things startgetting rowdy.
So it's in, it's two yearslater in June of 1880 that the.
The testimony of the relativeof the McCoys who was married to
the Hatfield is killed by twoof the McCoy sons.
(25:00):
They're like, hey, you betrayed.
They kind of in, in theminiseries, they kind of say, hey,
you betrayed our side of the family.
And they kill him.
They kill him.
Now they are immediatelyarrested, but the Hatfields catch
him.
They see them him do that andthey take him into trial.
But they claim self defense.
And because nobody saw it,they say he came after us with a
(25:21):
knife, which he probably didbecause they threatened him that
they were going to kill him.
So he pulls a knife and says,I'm going to defend myself.
And then they just kill him.
And so they claim self defense.
And you see in the, in the, inthe miniseries that Anderson Hatfield,
the just the piece is gettingvery mad now at this, at this point
because they're using the law,which is true.
(25:43):
But he can't.
He kind of bent the law in thefirst place for his cousin to win
the hog trial.
Now the McCoys are bending thelaw in their favor to win the self
defense.
And he just sees thisescalating right now.
We've killed a person was killed.
Asa has been killed.
A hog has been taken.
Now someone else has been killed.
So we kind of have a person onthe McCoy side has been killed and
(26:07):
a person on the Hatfield sidehas been killed.
So that's where we're at right now.
This is 1880, so it's kind ofright now an eye for an eye.
But this is going to escalatenow with a daughter.
Of course, things startgetting complicated when the, when
(26:28):
the girls start coming in.
So Randall McCoy has abeautiful daughter named Rosanna.
And she enters intorelationship with Devil and son Johnson.
They call him Jonesy.
And she leaves her family tolive with them because McCoy, basically,
Randall McCoy, basicallydisowns her when he finds out that
she likes him.
(26:50):
Right.
He's so mad still.
This is festered for so long.
How could my daughter.
Yeah.
And in the miniseries, likeJones, he's like, like the handsome
Hatfield.
He's kind of a little bit of aplayboy, right?
Yeah.
And they start this fling andthey, you know, quote, unquote, fall
in love.
Yes.
You know, and you have tothink about it too.
I, they.
They don't get into a bunch of this.
(27:11):
In the miniseries, Jonesyalready has a kid by another woman.
There's not a lot of peoplearound at this time.
The people you know are yourneighbors because it's not like you're
going into the city it's notlike you're meeting a bunch of people.
Right.
The hog trial was probably theevent of the.
Of the year.
Yeah, well.
And it's hard to travel aroundthose hollers out there.
I mean, it's.
Travel is slow.
It's slow.
(27:31):
You walk or you ride your horse.
So who is she gonna seebesides your neighbor?
And so this is very much likea Romeo and Juliet kind of situation,
because my enemy is the onlyperson who has a son who's my age.
You know, so that's kind ofwhat happens here.
When she tells Randall McCoythat she likes her father.
Yeah, yeah.
(27:52):
She tells her father that shelikes the Hatfield son.
He kicks her out.
So she goes over to them, theytake her in as good people.
They.
But then she ends up getting pregnant.
And so then they kick her outbecause it's starting a problem that
they're not married.
And.
And so then the McCoys don'twant her coming back with basically
(28:13):
a bastard child, so she's kindof sent to live with an aunt on the
outskirts of this whole area.
And what's very weird is the brothers.
Then again, the McCoy brotherstry to honor their sister and kidnap
(28:34):
John Z.
And they were going to kill him.
They were going to kill him.
And so she finds out aboutthis and goes and tells the Hatfields,
the only people that she knowsthat can save him would be his own
people, Even though she's kindof like betraying her own brothers.
Betraying her own brothers.
So she goes until theHatfields, the Hatfields go stop
the killing.
(28:54):
And they don't.
They don't hurt the McCoyboys, but they.
They basically give a good.
Like, this is your last chancekind of thing.
Like, no one was hit, killedhere, but this.
We're.
We're escalating this.
This is getting really big andwe need to stop.
And so John Z.
(29:14):
Basically abandons herpregnant because it is getting kind
of big.
Yeah.
When neither side wants.
It's either supports orcondones this relationship, ostracizing
each of them.
So it's kind of.
It's not even a lesser of any evil.
They're just.
Jonesy just kind of sides withhis family, and he.
He.
He leaves Rosanna and leavesher for.
(29:36):
To kind of fend for herself.
With her aunt.
Yeah, with her aunt.
And then he.
Typical guy who's just runningaround, marries Nancy McCoy.
So he does marry a McCoy.
It's a cousin of Rosanna whohappens to be the daughter of Asa
McCoy.
From the very beginning.
The very beginning.
Crazy, right?
So it's like, what?
Like, so when you start tofind these locations, they are very
(29:57):
close together, and you'relike, okay, I can see how this is
getting complicated now.
We're still at one death forone death, but we're starting to
get more complicated now.
A baby's brought into the picture.
Johnny did marry McCoy.
Right.
So.
So what's the next thing thatkind of takes it to the next level?
So we're back at the cabin,the Hog trial cabin.
(30:27):
It's election day in Kentucky.
That's right.
Everyone's coming out.
1882.
This is almost.
Almost 20 years after the endof the Civil war.
Yep.
Yeah.
20 years after the Civil War.
Again, a gathering.
Everyone comes back to the hogtrial cabin because it's the justice
of the peace cabin.
And it's kind of in that area.
It's.
It's central ish.
It's central ish.
(30:47):
And it's where the election'sbeing held, where the boxes, right.
You write on your ballot andyou put in the box, only men can
vote.
This is still only the men, right?
So the women are there like,yay, I'll make a pie, and my man
will vote.
You know, it's a big event.
It's a big event.
So Jonesy has a.
Has a still, which a lot ofthe people did this.
(31:09):
It's Kentucky.
This is moonshine.
And.
And start.
Get.
Start drinking.
And the younger brothers ofRosanna are still pissed about everything
that happened with John Z.
And their sister.
She's since had the baby.
And they start messing aroundand pushing around ants brother.
(31:32):
His big brother.
Or actually, no, his littlebrother, but a brother who he really
loved.
Ellison.
Ellison Hatfield has a sonnamed Cotton.
Ellison is a good guy.
He's trying to stop theescalation of these brothers.
They're getting mad at John Z.Ellison's kind of like, leave him
alone.
Yeah.
(31:52):
So Ellison comes in andbasically break up the fight.
Break up the fight.
And Tolbert, Farmer, And Bud,the three younger brothers of Rosanna,
the McCoys kill Ellison.
Not right away.
They stab him 26 times andshoot him.
I mean, they.
They.
He doesn't die right away.
And because.
So initially, Anne's Hatfieldarrests them.
(32:16):
And he says, if my brotherdies, I'm gonna kill you.
And so.
So he actually has them and hearrests him.
Like, it's not like he doesn'ttake him to the county jail.
Like, he's holding them on his land.
On his land.
He basically is like a groupof vigilantes.
And he.
He won't let them be taken to Pikeville.
And the McCoy family tries.
(32:38):
Randall McCoy tries to getthem taken.
Failed to stand trial.
He's trying to get themlegally to Pikeville, which as you
see is probably about 20minutes away.
Yeah, for us driving.
Yes, but imagine in a wagon or something.
But the brothers are taken byforce by ants and they, they're held
(32:59):
up.
And then when Ellison dies,all three of the brothers are killed
by the Hatfields.
They're tied to these pawpawtrees and shot numerous times.
A total 50 shots were fired.
Their bodies were bullet riddled.
And soon you can go to thosepaw paw trees.
They are close.
We didn't go there.
It's one place we didn't go.
You can walk over to them.
That's where that Hadfield guywas saying he owns the land.
(33:21):
He owns that land, which.
But you can go visit there ifyou want to.
It's pretty close to the hogtrial cabin and you can just basically
walk out into the clearing andyou can see where they were tied
to the trees and shot.
Yeah.
So now, now things are justkind of out of control now.
Now things are out of controlbecause these three, they killed
Ellison.
(33:42):
Then the Hatfields come back,take these three, they.
They kill these three.
I mean, just line them up andshoot them.
And now things, now things areout of control.
This is when Randall McCoy, Imean, of course he's going to be
so upset.
His sons are killed.
Three of his sons, like theoldest, are all killed.
So he tries to get a lawyer,Perry Klein.
(34:05):
So you're going to hear PerryKlein's name a couple times as well,
to arrest the Hatfields forbasically acting as vigilantes and
killing his sons.
And even though people in thearea believe this revenge is warranted.
Right.
There's about 20 people whoare indicted, including ants on this.
(34:26):
But all of the Hatfield deludearrest, that also angers McCoy because
no one can prove anything.
No one's going to testifyagainst each other.
Right.
And so McCoy gets even moreupset about all of that.
So is this when he calls inthe gun for hire?
Yes.
And so I'll also talk a littlebit about the graves of those three
(34:48):
sons before we get any further.
Across from the well of theHatfield house, across from the well
from the McCoy house, thethree Hatfield Boyds were buried.
And there's a marker when youpark into the parking lot to walk
over to the McCoy well wherethe cabin was.
It'll say McCoy Cemetery.
(35:11):
It's not in the right locationbecause you can't go visit the graves.
It's not public.
It's not public.
Why?
Because a Hatfield owns theland now where the McCoy boys are
buried and because a Hatfieldowns the land, they don't want people
to go and visit it.
I mean, we laughed at the feudtoday is no longer going on, but
in some regard it is now.
(35:32):
Is that the one that a judgeruled that at least once a year family
can go.
Family can go and visit the graves.
Yes.
So when you talk to the well guy.
Yes.
The McCoy family once a yearis allowed to go onto the land and
visit the graves of the three boys.
But the public, you and Icouldn't go there and visit their
(35:54):
grave.
So that's one place you can't go.
Yeah, it's private land.
Yeah.
And again, that is a big partof the story.
So.
But you can't go there.
McCoy feels like he can't getjustice and Perry Klein, the lawyer
(36:15):
who at some point tried to sueHatfield for his land, but was caught
in some.
Kind of doing it sketchy or something.
Yeah, it wasn't right.
He was.
He was doing something that wasn't.
It was definitely fraud andHatfield caught him.
So Perry Klein was kind ofupset that he was caught in his wrongdoings.
(36:36):
They.
They hire a man to come in andbasically catch Hadfield and this
bad Frank Phillips.
Bad Frank Phillips is brought in.
You're going to get McCoys andHatfield who are basically trying
to tie up loose ends and covertheir stories and cover their tracks.
Hatfield kind of goes intohiding on his land, won't let anybody
(36:58):
on his land.
He doesn't know very afraid ofwhat repercussions could happen to
him.
Well, and.
And part of it, if I rememberfrom the miniseries and you were
saying that it was prettyaccurate, but bag Frank Phillips
is hired by the McCoys to kindof go.
And they.
I think in the miniseries theysay, hey, go and arrest them and
bring them over to this sideso they can stand trial.
(37:19):
But they've Hatfields have itso locked up on their property that
they can't go over.
And bad Frank Phillips againin the miniseries, had this reputation
of being a little bit of a.
Of a wild, you know, wild kindof gun for hire.
And rather than trying toarrest, he just, you know, ended
up starting to kill some people.
(37:40):
Yeah, he started to killcousins of the Hatfields.
That made Anne's Hadfield moremad, I would say.
Anderson Hadfield, old Anne'sHadfield, understood the predicament
he was in and maybe didn'tagree that what he was doing was
orthodox, but once his familymembers start to get killed, he feels
(38:04):
like he has to be the one torectify the situation.
And it deserves his, itdeserves someone else to be killed
for.
A family member has beenkilled even if he wasn't in the right.
Yeah.
You could tell that KevinCostner's character, who's Dev Lance.
Right.
Devil Ants Hatfield was, was torn.
He did a good job ofportraying the hey, this needs to
(38:26):
de.
Escalate but ultimately isjust pushed across the line to defend
his family rather than takethe high road.
Be able to take the high roadand, and bring things, you know,
back down to normalcy.
And so they really play thatup and eventually even him.
Devilance Hatfield, you know,Kevin Costner's character is just
(38:48):
like okay, that's it, we're done.
Like this is, this is usversus you and I am on the Hatfield
side kind of no matter what.
Yes.
So it's at this point that theHatfields are so sick and tired of
being afraid that they fight back.
And it reaches, I would saythe feud reaches its peak here.
(39:10):
And this is why the McCoycabin no longer exists.
This is 1888, it's New Year'sEve and Vance, crazy, crazy uncle.
Crazy uncle with Cotton WoosEllison's son.
And he in the show, he has thename Cotton because he's most likely
simple minded.
(39:30):
Yeah.
Simple minded, right.
Yeah.
And so.
And I think that's even trueto life.
Yeah.
They treat him like Cotton.
Yeah.
But, but again loved within.
Within the Hatfield side.
And they, but slow.
Slow.
Right.
His mental capacity is, is diminished.
And so they.
The Hatfields surround them aquake cabin.
So it's Sarah and Randall withall their children.
(39:53):
So boys and girls and Cottonis told to go around back and if
anyone tries to leave from theback, shoot him.
Right.
So they're, they're coming forhim and his, his wife, you know,
and they're standing outsidethe cabin yelling for him to come
out and she says don't.
She sends him out the back andhe escapes before Cotton gets there
(40:15):
and he had run off.
And then she starts sendingthe, the daughters, the girls out
and that's when Cotton kind ofshoots one of the dogs.
So her idea is if they don'tthink you're home, they'll leave
us alone.
Right.
So if you run.
Because if you go out there,they're just going to kill you.
So if you run and pretend likeyou're not here, they'll leave us
alone.
Well, they don't leave themAlone, they end up killing two of
the boys and they beat Sarah,almost killing her by Vance and Johnsy.
(40:39):
And then they burn the cabin down.
Then they burn the cabin down.
And like I said, one of thedaughters is killed.
So the remaining McCoys willmove to Pikeville.
Like in the city.
In the city.
And the, the.
That McCoy house is there.
Yeah, it's like a restaurant.
It's a restaurant now, so wevisit there.
So like I said, there arethings you're going to want to see
in Pikeville.
That McCoy house is after thefire of 1888, is where they move
(41:03):
and live.
They spend the rest of theirlives there in Pikeville.
That's the thing you're goingto want to see in the city.
So after that, Cotton is goingto be arrested and stand trial for
the murder and he's foundguilty and he's hanged in the square
of Pikeville.
(41:24):
So that's another place youcan visit in the city of Pikeville.
And it's not like he was takenat night and hanged.
He was like, this is a public execution.
A public execution.
Ellison Cottontop Mounts wasexecuted by hanging and buried in
an unmarked grave.
And if I remember correctly,this is kind of the thing that finally
ends it, you know, at least asfar as the events go, is everybody's
(41:45):
out there from both sides ofthe family as well as the rest of
the public.
And, and he's hanged.
And then that, that kind oftakes the wind out of the sails of
both sides because everybody,at least again in the miniseries
kind of sees like, okay, thiscan't continue on.
The two McCoys that are killedare a son and the daughter.
(42:05):
And so it's on August 24,1888, that eight of the Hatfields
and their friends are indictedfor the murder of the daughter at
a fair.
She was killed during the massacre.
And those included Cap, JohnZ. Robert and Elliot Hatfield, Ellison
Mounts, Frank Ellis, CharlesGipsy and Thomas Chambers.
But only Cotton is executed.
(42:27):
The rest of them will spendlife in prison.
Those sent to prison,Valentine Hatfield, elder brother
of Anst.
Doc Madden, son in law of theHatfield and another son in law,
14 years in prison.
(42:49):
So this is basically the end.
This is where again, afterCotton is hanged, the feud dies out
also, they believe because theMcCoys moved to Pikeville and they're
far enough away from theHatfields that this feud dies out.
There's nothing after this.
There's no real back and forth.
The fighting between thefamily ceased after the hanging.
(43:10):
But the trials continue until 1901.
Trial of John Z sentenced tolife imprisonment for his involvement
in the year New Year Massacre.
So John Z.
Will have life in prison.
And so then you get like themodern era.
In 1979, Family Feud had theHatfields and the McCoys on the family
Feud.
Oh, did they really?
Yeah, they did.
(43:30):
Like there was a cash prizeand a pig kept on stage during the
game.
Right.
And the Hatfield family wonmore money than the McCoys.
Now, I think you said it inthe video, it was the early 2000s.
Eventually both families kindof came together and signed something
that said, hey, this, thisfeud is done.
Yeah.
So they did a joint familyreunion in 2000.
(43:52):
It garnered national attention.
5,000 people attended.
And that's when they basicallysigned a truce.
Yeah, I mean, kind of it wasceremonial, but it actually, it,
it meant something.
It meant something.
I mean, we.
Do you still have the issuewith the graveyard, right.
That happened in 2002.
A lawsuit about thatgraveyard, which is when just they
(44:14):
can be visited once a year.
But there is pretty much atruce between the families now.
And now they do like a bighalf a McCoy festival.
It's a three day weekend in June.
People come and visit.
Other things you can go andsee that we went and see is you definitely
want to see the graves.
So in the city of Pikeville,you want to go see the McCoy graves.
(44:38):
You can see Randall, Sarah and Rosanna.
And that was near like a firestation, if I remember correct.
You have to park across the street.
Across the street.
And it's a walk, so it'sdefinitely not somebody who is in
a wheelchair or can't do stairs.
It's not access, it's nothandicap accessible.
It's basically straight upwith a bunch of stairs and.
(44:58):
But it's neat to see theirgraves there.
You can also visit theHatfield graveyard, that's farther
out.
Old roads.
We didn't go all the way outto that.
We went to a park that kind oftold the stories of the Hatfields,
McCoys.
It was, it was very neat.
And I encourage folkslistening to this if you, if you
like this story.
The video actually did prettywell for us.
(45:19):
It's a good video.
We took some time to make it.
And we show all theselocations, we show some maps so you
get a feel for where inVirginia and West Virginia, Kentucky
area that, that we're at, aswell as this kind of memorial to
both sides of the family.
Yeah.
And in case you werewondering, Rosanna's baby doesn't
make it past one year old.
She dies.
(45:39):
She has a little girl so youcan also visit Aunt Betty's house
and Rosanna's baby's gravesite, that's in Goody, Kentucky.
All of these locations are onthe driving.
So when you.
When you see the driving tour,you can see how out in the middle
of Kentucky, West Virginia you are.
(46:00):
And again, you're not going tohave great cell phone coverage.
So again, I remind you toplease download the locations beforehand
or take the map with you.
Perry Klein's gravesite isavailable to you if you want to see
that as well.
And the Cotton Top hangingsite, again, you can go to the Pawpaw
Trees.
(46:20):
And then last but not least,you can go to Devil Hatfield's monument
at his grave site.
There's a statue of him thereas you can go and visit that as well.
There's some other places offthe beaten path.
You know, Bad Frank Phillips,his grave is out there.
He ends up marrying Nancy.
That's right.
Who was married to John Z. Yeah.
(46:41):
Even he did that dude in theshow, too.
Yeah.
And he was again, the daughterof the very first person who was
killed.
So I talk about this like thiswas very much as you.
As you start to visit thesesites and go to these locations,
they're not far away from eachother enough that you can see how
these families are so intertwined.
And this feud is long term.
But what has happened withthese two names is they're synonymous
(47:06):
now with any kind of feud, family.
Any sort of family feud, any family.
Feud, any feud between twopeople that maybe were close at one
time and now are not.
Maybe a few that's left lasteda couple years.
Maybe a feud that is deeplyingrained in you when you're like,
I hate him, like the hatfieldshit the McCoy, like something that
is deeply seated in you.
It's used in that vernacular now.
(47:28):
It's become a part of ourAmerican psyche, this Hatfield and
McCoy feud.
So it was really neat to goout there and to visit and to see
it, to understand it better,to kind of give these people more
agency and to understand theirlives a little bit more.
But I was really honored to gothere to talk to the people.
And like I said, the feud isnot a hateful thing anymore.
(47:53):
Everybody talks about itpretty much with a smile on their
face.
They're very open.
They talk about everything andopenly and happily.
So it really is now just a.
If you're coming to ask aboutit, you're considered kin.
You're considered part ofAmerica because it's something that
it belongs to all of us now.
It's all of our story.
Yeah, even though there arethose with the name still today,
(48:15):
it's.
It's more local legend than itreally is anything else.
Well, that's all the time wehave for this episode on the Hatfield
McCoy feud.
A bloody mess, wasn't it?
Lives lost, families fracturedall over.
(48:36):
What started as a squabbleover a pig.
Hard to believe, ain't it?
The feud finally sputtered outand around the turn of the century,
but its echoes still linger inthese hills.
Sure, The Hatfields and McCoysain't shooting each other anymore,
but there's a wariness, adistance, that time hasn't quite
healed.
(48:57):
Some folks say it's acautionary tale, a reminder of how
easily a spark can turn into a bonfire.
Others say it's a testament tothe the stubborn pride that runs
deep in these Appalachian veins.
Maybe it's both.
Whatever the case, theHatfield McCoy feud is a story that's
woven into the fabric of this place.
A story of violence, yes, butalso of resilience, of families clinging
(49:21):
to their own versions of the truth.
It's a reminder of the darkside of human nature, but also the
enduring strength of the human spirit.
What a story, right?
Did you catch the part abouthow Doc McCoy from Star Trek is supposed
to be related to theseAmerican legends?
(49:42):
Those are some of my favoritethings I learned from this episode.
What about you?
This has been Walking withHistory production.
Talk With History is createdand hosted by me, Scott Benny.
Episode researched by Jennifer Benny.
(50:03):
Check out the show notes forlinks and references mentioned in
this episode.
Talk with History is supportedby our fans@thehistoryroadtrip.com
our maternal thanks go out tothose providing funding to help keep
us going.
Thank you to Doug McLiberty,Larry Myers, Patrick Benny, Gale
Cooper, Krista Coates, andCalvin Gifford.
(50:23):
Make sure you hit that followbutton in that podcast player and
we'll talk to you next time.
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