March 28, 2022 • 28 mins
🎙️
Henrietta Lacks is the closest thing this world has ever had to a superhero. Her cells are so unique that they have been used in biomedical research ever since her fateful visit to her doctors in 1951. It is because of her that the world has things like the Polio Vaccine, COVID Vaccine, In vitro fertilization, and so many more medical wonders.
I was honored to visit her hometown of Clover, Virginia as well as visit her gravesite.
🚕 Google Map to Henrieta Lacks gravesite
***learn more at HELA100.org***
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Music]
greetings and welcome to the talk with
History Podcast I am your host Scott
(00:22):
here with my wife and historian Jen
hello on this podcast we talk about
history's continuing impact on us and
our personal journey through YouTube as
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now Jen before we get into our main
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(00:42):
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the conversation wander where it may
(01:04):
[Music]
most of the world if not all of it has
been affected by the woman we are going
to talk about today
she's from a small town in Virginia and
before she passed away
she had no idea what kind of impact she
would have on modern day medicine but it
is because of an African-American woman
(01:25):
born into poverty and working a farm
with family A Woman by the name of
Henrietta Lacks that we have to thank
for so many medical Miracles so Jen why
don't you tell us about who we're
talking about today
well you mentioned her name Henrietta
Lacks yeah and
this was an amazing story to do for many
(01:46):
reasons but
I stumbled upon this story when HBO did
a movie about a book called The Immortal
Life of Henrietta Lacks and the book
came out in 2010 and the movie was made
with Oprah Winfrey playing Henrietta
lacks's daughter
that's right and it went through the
(02:09):
whole story of the family pretty much
discovering that their mother's cell
line was responsible for so much medical
research impact right and what that
meant for them and just kind of like
past traumas that they had had in their
life plus the trauma of the ethics of
(02:32):
the whole situation yeah that her mother
their mother never knew they never
really even knew so why don't you for
for The Listener who's never heard of
Henrietta Lacks and why don't you talk
about kind of what what that story was
because really
first off to set the stage you tell me
about Henry Henrietta Lacks right
because we do talk about a little bit of
(02:53):
the production side of things and I'm
like who the heck is this you're like oh
don't worry it's like she's buried in
her hometown is like in the middle of
Virginia three hours away I was like
sure let's do this let's drive three
hours away so that's kind of like that's
kind of where I was going with that is
watching that movie and then after we I
think I watched that movie while we were
in Pennsylvania okay and then we moved
here and I remembered she was from
(03:15):
Virginia and I wanted to find out more
about her and I looked her up and she's
from Clover Virginia yeah
before she moves to Baltimore Maryland
that's she grew up in Clover Virginia
she wasn't born there she was born in
Roanoke oh okay and they actually just
demolished the house before she was born
where she was brought she was brought
(03:36):
home too okay and she might have been
born in the house where I think she was
brought home to that house and they
actually people tried to save it it was
very old and yeah dilapidated but they
tried to to save it and they couldn't
save it but
living here in Virginia now looking up
Clover Virginia and I had said to you
let's go there and make a video about
her and her life and her impact and yeah
(03:58):
we drove out three hours to Clover so
what was what's the big draw like what
is her why don't you tell listeners what
her Legacy is because it's when I
learned about it I was like oh my God so
what's very interesting about Henry
lacks when you say what is the big draw
it's
most people don't know the big drug I
(04:19):
had I had zero she has a historic marker
but no one knew where her grave was and
we'll talk about that some more she
should be more well known than she is
and that's why that's what her family
wants to know yes you know like her her
family wants people to know more about
her so let me give you kind of a
background in the story of Henrietta
(04:39):
Lacks
lack's town is an ancestral Farm tobacco
area in uh for the lacks family and
Henrietta Lacks was born Loretta
Pleasant August 1st 1920 like I said in
Roanoke Virginia and she was born to
Eliza Pleasant and John Pleasant
(05:01):
her name changed sometime in her younger
years to Henrietta and she got the
nickname Henny
in 1924 when she was four her mother
dies giving birth to her 10th child
and her father is unable to care for all
the children alone so he moves the
family back to Clover Virginia where
(05:21):
they're from they're both from there
okay so that's where they have extended
family right and he moves back there to
because they have fiesta he has to
distribute his children yeah amongst his
family amongst his family to take care
of them because he can't do that yeah
what the ratio of one to ten for kids
that's I don't know if that's possible
(05:42):
sure and he has to work I'm sure yeah so
yeah so he has to go with his family
right and Henrietta ended up with her
mother's grandfather Thomas
um Thomas Henry lacks and it's a
two-story Log Cabin that was once a
slave Quarters on a plantation that had
been owned by henrietta's white
(06:04):
great-grandfather so you can unpack that
and his last name was lacks yeah so as
you can yeah you don't really connect
the dots for the viewers on the video
you don't tell them like uh this is what
happened you just say like well his last
name was lacks and he was her great
grandfather yes
um he was her great grandfather so
(06:27):
as most enslaved when they are freed
sometimes took their master's last name
oh okay in this instance I would say
they the last name was
more relational sure it was a little bit
more of both right yes yeah and that
(06:48):
also is not rare with enslaved
situations sometimes so Henrietta Lacks
is an example of that
and so she grows up on this tobacco farm
now if you watch the video we stand in
the tobacco farm area what we believe is
might have been theirs but it was it was
definitely tobacco farm we don't we
(07:08):
weren't sure if it was theirs but it was
that was an Old Farm I'm pretty sure it
took us out there the mark some yeah
some random GPS I mean we were literally
driving in my Forerunner like there was
barely a road it was kind of more of
dirt track and we stand out there and I
talk about Henrietta Lacks there so
tobacco farming is basically what is the
(07:30):
big
industry yeah yeah for for that area and
so that's what she does and kind of in
that sharecropper kind of idea right
where her family is now working the land
so she drops out of school in the sixth
grade and of course as you can imagine
it's probably segregated yeah right so
she has to probably walk farther away to
(07:51):
school and the family needs help at the
farm and money so she drops out and
helps support her family
they say she had hazel eyes a small way
size six shoe she's always wearing red
nail polish and a pleated skirt and the
few pictures that survive of her she
definitely looks like she
cares about
(08:12):
how she presents herself yeah I mean the
the picture that I found when I look her
up there's there's they the portrait I
think it looks like it was painted I'm
not sure so that was painted for the
National Gallery right and that's in the
Smithsonian the um yes and then and the
Smithsonian African-American history
right now they take they paint that
portrait off a photograph
of her yeah and the couple photographs
(08:35):
that do survive of her she is very well
presented like you can tell she really
cares about how she looks and that's
great you know good for her like she
just looks
good you know red nail polish pleated
skirt she keeps herself well put
together she cares about her how she
presents herself in 1935 when she's 14
(08:55):
she gives birth to her first child a son
so at that house where she lives with
her great-grandfather she also lives I
think with like her second cousin who
will become her husband so he's also
there I didn't realize they were like
distantly related yes okay and then in
1939 she gives birth to a daughter uh
(09:16):
her name is Elsie so she has two
children before she marries him David
lacks in 1941 so she has one child of 14
one child at 18 gets married at 20.
in Halifax County which is where Clover
is so in that county they get married
and it's later that year in 1941 that
(09:37):
they all moved to Baltimore Maryland and
they moved there for opportunity they
moved there to escape the racism this is
the beginning of the war
oh that's right this is right before
World War One started so I think they're
just trying to get away from
the lack of opportunity sure and there's
more opportunity up North so they moved
to Baltimore I think they have family
(09:57):
who had also moved there and said come
come here and there's more opportunity
here so that's where they go to
Baltimore Maryland and she has three
more children where they while they live
there
but it's there her last child is born in
November of 1950 and then in January she
goes to John Hopkins hospital because
that's one of the few places where
(10:18):
African Americans can go to be treated
it's still segregated it is a segregated
Hospital segregated waiting rooms but
she has her words are not in her womb
she thought it was her pregnancy right
she gives birth in November but then in
January the knot has not gone away so
she goes to John Hopkins University and
a doctor Dr Howard
(10:40):
John's takes a biopsy and
he takes a biopsy of off of a mass in
her cervix
and
the samples were given then to a doctor
guy and he's a researcher for John
Hopkins now at the time this is a normal
thing to do sure they're trying to
(11:01):
figure out what's going on so this would
happen to a white person or a black
person it would take a sample from
good healthy cell tissue and cancer cell
tissue compare the two they do that
nowadays yes so this is not you don't
need to give consent to have those
samples taken and tested sure I mean
you've basically when you come in and
(11:21):
you say like I'm signing all the forms
to say like yeah I'm not going to sue
you if you help me out and you're doing
all this stuff like that's what you're
signing so it's Dr guy who's the
researcher John Hopkins who takes these
cells and he's the one who and we'll get
into what happens he discovers this cell
line and he calls it the Gila cell line
yeah now what's unique about her cell
(11:41):
line well we'll talk more about that but
let me talk more about her life okay
sure
so Gila is the first two initials of her
first name and the person initials of a
last name yeah that was a cool that's
how they then and that was just a
typical way of labeling cell lines it
wasn't unique to her this is how they
would do everybody's cell line these
(12:03):
easy way to classify them
uh she goes back to the hospital for
severe abdominal pain in August of 1951
she stays there and she dies in October
October 4th 1951 and she's buried in
Clover in an unmarked grave until 2010
and she dies at 31 years old yeah so
(12:23):
what happens is Dr guy after taking
these cells
he notices that they not only produce at
a high rate but they are they stay alive
they don't they don't die
so you can keep them alive long enough
to examine them to do tests on them
(12:43):
which which wasn't normal it's never
never been seen before right most cell
lines die quickly they can't survive
outside the body they don't multiply
like that now was it these were like the
cells that were already affected by the
cancer so
they're not sure quite what happened
what happens is I think they what I
(13:04):
believe when I was reading is they took
a cell from the cancer so a mutated
malignant cell and he made the cell line
from one of those cells so it actually
is like a a cell line that has been
adapted from her cell line sure sure so
it is it quite technically
a a healthy Gila right or right cell
(13:25):
right it is a cancerous and then it's a
line that's been made from that right
and they're the first cells that could
be divided multiple times without dying
and that's why they're called Immortal
so that's why it's the immortal
Henrietta Lacks and it's not even so
much that it's like right cells right
there's I'm not I'm not I've never
(13:46):
claimed to be good at science right but
so you can split a cell I'm assuming
tons of times but it's basically it just
won't die like this like this to this
day right as we are recording it's 2022.
her cell line is a lie it's alive it's
the one that's been used it's for
biomedical research it's the most
(14:07):
contemporary used cell line yeah it's
just when I heard that one you kind of
think like does this woman have like
super powers yes it's crazy so that's
kind of what we talk about in the video
is we I equate her to Wonder Woman yeah
I equate her to the closest thing you
will ever know to a superhero sure
because you know those superheroes those
cells regenerate quickly they know they
(14:29):
don't die because Wolverines yeah they
can heal fast yeah right now it's not
quite the same thing but it's the
closest thing you'll get to it is
because her cell line that one specific
cell
it repeatedly divides and divides and
divides and they can make samples of it
and send them off in all the little
vials and these have led to huge
breakthroughs like the Gila cell line
(14:50):
developed the polio vaccine yeah the
hela cell line developed
um the AIDS we did the AIDS research
cancer research it's it's the first cell
that was cloned in 1955 and there's 11
000 patents that the Gila cell line has
developed
[Music]
(15:13):
and if I remember right when I was
making the video and doing you know my
little bit of post right what all the
research that you do right I'm looking
up stuff I mean it actually the the cell
kind of got out into the the greater I
say medical community around the world
pretty quickly oh yes everyone uses it
yeah I mean and not just us worldwide
(15:33):
worldwide and you so there are companies
that you can buy sells from to do
research yeah and they mass-produced the
hela cell line so it's basically a
commercialized cell line yeah it's and
so that's where you get into the ethics
right of this because so much money has
been generated from her cell line right
right not even millions billions of
(15:54):
dollars yeah easy and so then you have
her family she dies at 31 right and she
has
how many children by that point she has
six
three which is five five children by
that point and they get
just you know then they get distributed
to family right because she died yeah
(16:17):
and they suffer trauma people who didn't
want to raise them or weren't very good
caregivers and they grew up in relative
poverty some of her children can't even
afford medical insurance and here her
cell line is developing these huge
breakthroughs in medical research
generating billions of dollars and her
(16:41):
family can't get their own medical
coverage right so what happens is
people don't want to know more about the
cell line who are these people who are
who's this family that that this selling
came from so they would get phone calls
through the years oh uh how often were
(17:02):
you sick
what happened to your family researchers
trying to do kind of post whatever
follow-up yeah
they didn't quite understand what they
were being asked and told especially her
husband when they said well we have her
cell line here he thought is she still
alive like what what are you saying I I
she died like they didn't quite
(17:22):
understand yeah and so not only are they
using their mothers and wives cell line
but they start to really dig into their
medical history sure and so that kind of
ethical questions of their medical
history being so
relatively public I mean even though
it's like medical you know HIPAA and all
(17:43):
that stuff when there's that many
medical laboratories it's hard to say
that that's private yes and so that's
where more ethics comes into play plus
she's African-American so you fall into
these other ethical questions the
Tuskegee experiment where they gave all
these men African-American men syphilis
unbeknownst to them to see what it would
(18:04):
do to them and that happened in 1950s
right you have all these
African-American women who were enslaved
who were tested on by doctors who became
the fathers of gynecology
and these women gave no consent and they
found out all about women's reproductive
Health by testing these enslaved women
(18:26):
yeah and these men then get revered
as breakthroughs in medical science so
yeah there's a lot of questions yeah so
that's where Gila Henry lacks falls into
that realm yeah so you start to question
well are we
are we overlooking her rights because
(18:46):
she's African-American are we
overlooking her rights because she's a
woman are we looking at where she comes
from so those are the kind of questions
so her family when this was all brought
to light when they could understand what
was happening
that's when they kind of pushed back and
asked for more say and what happens to
herself ask for more just a seat at the
(19:07):
table
[Music]
yeah I mean she didn't have you
mentioned it in the video I mean her
grave didn't even have a headstone until
like a few years ago yeah 2010 and it
was Dr Gay and his group from John
Hopkins that sponsored that that I
didn't realize that they are the ones
who paid for it that's actually kind of
(19:28):
cool it is I mean they will never they
never admitted any wrong during
apologized but they would do
stuff like that sure right so very aware
of what they're doing and saying without
saying it yeah I didn't realize that
they were the ones who who helped do
that yeah and then I think they've also
(19:48):
funded like some other family headstones
I don't know if it's them but like so
what family has written yes so for for
at least for for Elsie
um who had a hard life because she was
born with a mental handicap and then she
was institutionalized
their family when they knew that
Henrietta Lacks was getting a tombstone
the family raised money to make sure
that she had one as well yeah so that's
(20:08):
what that other when you see the two
tombstones they look relatively newer
yeah and that's why that's if you can
find if you can find so that's that was
part of our journey yeah absolutely so
putting the story together
again she should be more revered and
more celebrated and when you go to
Clover there is a marker to her but that
(20:29):
is it and we wanted to find her grave
and we really wanted to pay respects to
her gray but her grave is unmarked her
grade was marked but it's in an unmarked
graveyard right well so let me let me
kind of paint the larger picture here so
here we are driving from Norfolk out to
Clover it's about three hours it's three
hours yes kids are Troopers right the
(20:50):
the marker is pretty easy to find that's
the first thing I think that we found
it's right off the kind of little main
highway freeway there so we we find that
you know and then we kind of like you
don't your kind of research ahead of
time and be like okay I think this is
where either her husband's grave might
be so we went to find a grave we went to
find a grave and find a grave gives you
usually gives you like a GPS coordinate
(21:10):
yeah and it gave us a GPS coordinate for
her for the marker oh on this side of
the road yeah and then I usually what I
do when I do grave research these are
the kind of helpful hints that I give is
look up a spouse or a child that's
buried close by and sometimes it'll give
you that marker yeah and you can find
them that way so we did her husband
(21:33):
that's why we went over there and for
David uh lacks it gave us that that GPS
coordinate rate in that tobacco farm
area and so to anybody listening I would
not recommend trying to drive out to you
need a four-wheel drive you need a
four-wheel drive vehicle we were driving
like off I think there's a sign that's
(21:53):
like you're no longer driving in like
state-funded roads right it's all of a
sudden it was dirt and gravel and you
know just kind of we're out there in the
boonies so that's why I thought the
grave uh the the graveyard was that's
worth it it kind of would have kind of
would have made sense sure so we looked
around couldn't find it and I knew she
had a tombstone I knew she had a
(22:14):
memorial marker we weren't seeing
anything we weren't seeing anything like
that so we drove back out and as we're
driving out we see a car on the side of
the road and I'm I told Scott I'm just
gonna ask this person because we're in a
small town I grew up in a small town I
know small town thank God you did
because I am not that person maybe it's
just because I'm a guy and I don't want
to ask directions but I was like ah we
(22:34):
can't find this we're driving back out
this is like one little road yeah
was it lacks road yeah it lacks yeah Lex
Road
um Lex family Road
lacks Town Road LAX town LAX town road
so where we drove in dockstown road all
the way till the dirt off the off the
Incorporated part of it you know back in
the boonies back there I mean Clover
(22:55):
Virginia is is pretty remote there might
be a town of like maybe a couple hundred
people yeah I don't even know if the
town's incorporated or if it's an actual
town I'm not sure but we're driving back
out we're like we're kind of getting
frustrated we're hoping we can find it
we're looking around we see this truck
just kind of looks like someone's
waiting for someone to come out of their
house sweet Jen's like windows open yeah
(23:17):
she's like she's like Scott pulled next
to this person I'm gonna ask I was like
okay fine so you do and then she just
strikes up a conversation yeah I asked
that ma'am we're looking for Henrietta
lack's grave do you know where it's at
she goes oh Henny yeah her grave is back
the way you came yeah you're gonna go
down the hill and you're gonna see a
house on the right a yellow house with
the door open it's an old house yeah
(23:38):
very country directions yeah it was
quite adorable she's like and when you
see that house it's just right off right
off beside it you'll see a little path
and which there's no path it's just
grass yeah yeah I mean luckily we were
there in winter so it's a little bit
easier to see because all the leaves
were off the trees and she's like and
you just drive up that path and don't
worry it looks like you're driving on a
lawn but you're not just drive up that
(23:59):
path and you'll see it when you get up
there and I was like okay so down the
hill and she's like yeah just just down
the hill don't go back up the hill and I
told her we just went over a bridge she
goes no don't go that's too far she goes
just down the hill you'll see the yellow
house with the door open it's open
because no one lives there anymore and
it's it's an old abandoned house it's an
abandoned house she goes and that's
where you're gonna it you won't see a
(24:21):
road or anything you'll just go right
beside it you'll see some grass area
drive on that and drive up over that
hill and that's and I would say you
don't need four-wheel drive to get up
there no I wouldn't say that it's it
wasn't it wasn't that bad but that those
were good directions yeah and you
wouldn't we wouldn't be able to find
another one there's no sign there's no
nothing you can't see it from the road
(24:41):
you would think it's someone's lawn yeah
so we have GPS locations like precise
GPS locations for that you know on our
website if you want to look up the
episode travel guide for for that
particular episode yes and I you know I
posted some of this on Facebook finding
the grave and I had some people say well
maybe their family doesn't want you to
know don't want you to see it but the
family has explicitly said they want her
(25:03):
story told yeah they want her celebrated
they want people to know her they want
people to celebrate her and respect her
so I felt like no I think they want
people they're they're pretty public
about it I mean when I Googled you know
the lacks family and Henrietta Lacks I
mean part of the top hits was like some
recent lawsuits that they're trying to
(25:23):
that they're they're kind of working on
again some of these big medical
companies that are excuse me um making
making money off of this exactly so we
we went to the Grave there's there's
about 20 Graves yeah easily it's
definitely a family yeah it's a family
plot yeah plot
um and we left our Wonder Woman figurine
(25:44):
at her grave and we paid our respects uh
her grave looks like a book
almost and I think her family wrote the
Epitaph okay so I think it was her
granddaughters who wrote the Epitaph on
the front but it's very respectful she's
buried beside her mother
and then she has a
uh her daughter Elsie on the other side
(26:05):
so it's her mother on one side and Elsie
on the other side so I think it's a very
for me it was just a very important
place to be there it looked like a very
solemn place and beautiful place I'm
happy we found it you never would have
been able to find it no no we got we got
we got super lucky I think I saw one
YouTube video
it was like somebody looked like they
(26:25):
were in their Jeep showing that they
were driving up up to it but it's only
because I was specifically Googling you
know Henrietta Lacks you know Family
Cemetery or something and so I was able
to find it and you could see right but
he's not really talking it's just kind
of him showing driving up that way
um but really learning about her in
general and then learning the Legacy
(26:46):
that she left through
medicine and the history there it was
quite incredible yeah it
here is a person who her life
and her cells
have made an immeasurable impact on all
of us on medicine like there's nobody
really who has not been touched by what
(27:09):
her cells have been able to produce in
the medical world the covid vaccine yeah
I mean so it's the work again this is
2022 right so if you're listening to
this in the future it's 2022 right now
the coveted vaccine right they used her
cells to develop that so it was just
learning all this and making the video
was was really pretty neat because here
(27:29):
is someone who's
I don't know if that she's really taught
in in history classes and this that and
the other but the impact that she had
and she's well enough known that she
there was a you know movie made and
Oprah was in it and this that and the
other but it was pretty incredible so
Henrietta Lacks may not have known what
her Legacy would be but it's there
(27:50):
nonetheless her sales for right or wrong
have provided medical breakthroughs that
doctors have only dreamed of before the
hela cell was named it became widely
known and used in medical research
so next time you talk to someone who's
received a cancer treatment HPV vaccine
and vitro fertilization and yes the
(28:11):
covid vaccine think of Henrietta Lacks
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(28:31):
grow and we appreciate you all every day
thank you Henry relax and thank you to
her family we'll talk to you next time
foreign
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
greetings and welcome to the talk with
History Podcast I am your host Scott
(00:22):
here with my wife and historian Jen
hello on this podcast we talk about
history's continuing impact on us and
our personal journey through YouTube as
we continue to explore record and share
our history walks with you
now Jen before we get into our main
topic I want to briefly ask for a review
from our listeners Apple podcast reviews
(00:42):
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we interview folks while chatting about
history over a couple of drinks and let
the conversation wander where it may
(01:04):
[Music]
most of the world if not all of it has
been affected by the woman we are going
to talk about today
she's from a small town in Virginia and
before she passed away
she had no idea what kind of impact she
would have on modern day medicine but it
is because of an African-American woman
(01:25):
born into poverty and working a farm
with family A Woman by the name of
Henrietta Lacks that we have to thank
for so many medical Miracles so Jen why
don't you tell us about who we're
talking about today
well you mentioned her name Henrietta
Lacks yeah and
this was an amazing story to do for many
(01:46):
reasons but
I stumbled upon this story when HBO did
a movie about a book called The Immortal
Life of Henrietta Lacks and the book
came out in 2010 and the movie was made
with Oprah Winfrey playing Henrietta
lacks's daughter
that's right and it went through the
(02:09):
whole story of the family pretty much
discovering that their mother's cell
line was responsible for so much medical
research impact right and what that
meant for them and just kind of like
past traumas that they had had in their
life plus the trauma of the ethics of
(02:32):
the whole situation yeah that her mother
their mother never knew they never
really even knew so why don't you for
for The Listener who's never heard of
Henrietta Lacks and why don't you talk
about kind of what what that story was
because really
first off to set the stage you tell me
about Henry Henrietta Lacks right
because we do talk about a little bit of
(02:53):
the production side of things and I'm
like who the heck is this you're like oh
don't worry it's like she's buried in
her hometown is like in the middle of
Virginia three hours away I was like
sure let's do this let's drive three
hours away so that's kind of like that's
kind of where I was going with that is
watching that movie and then after we I
think I watched that movie while we were
in Pennsylvania okay and then we moved
here and I remembered she was from
(03:15):
Virginia and I wanted to find out more
about her and I looked her up and she's
from Clover Virginia yeah
before she moves to Baltimore Maryland
that's she grew up in Clover Virginia
she wasn't born there she was born in
Roanoke oh okay and they actually just
demolished the house before she was born
where she was brought she was brought
(03:36):
home too okay and she might have been
born in the house where I think she was
brought home to that house and they
actually people tried to save it it was
very old and yeah dilapidated but they
tried to to save it and they couldn't
save it but
living here in Virginia now looking up
Clover Virginia and I had said to you
let's go there and make a video about
her and her life and her impact and yeah
(03:58):
we drove out three hours to Clover so
what was what's the big draw like what
is her why don't you tell listeners what
her Legacy is because it's when I
learned about it I was like oh my God so
what's very interesting about Henry
lacks when you say what is the big draw
it's
most people don't know the big drug I
(04:19):
had I had zero she has a historic marker
but no one knew where her grave was and
we'll talk about that some more she
should be more well known than she is
and that's why that's what her family
wants to know yes you know like her her
family wants people to know more about
her so let me give you kind of a
background in the story of Henrietta
(04:39):
Lacks
lack's town is an ancestral Farm tobacco
area in uh for the lacks family and
Henrietta Lacks was born Loretta
Pleasant August 1st 1920 like I said in
Roanoke Virginia and she was born to
Eliza Pleasant and John Pleasant
(05:01):
her name changed sometime in her younger
years to Henrietta and she got the
nickname Henny
in 1924 when she was four her mother
dies giving birth to her 10th child
and her father is unable to care for all
the children alone so he moves the
family back to Clover Virginia where
(05:21):
they're from they're both from there
okay so that's where they have extended
family right and he moves back there to
because they have fiesta he has to
distribute his children yeah amongst his
family amongst his family to take care
of them because he can't do that yeah
what the ratio of one to ten for kids
that's I don't know if that's possible
(05:42):
sure and he has to work I'm sure yeah so
yeah so he has to go with his family
right and Henrietta ended up with her
mother's grandfather Thomas
um Thomas Henry lacks and it's a
two-story Log Cabin that was once a
slave Quarters on a plantation that had
been owned by henrietta's white
(06:04):
great-grandfather so you can unpack that
and his last name was lacks yeah so as
you can yeah you don't really connect
the dots for the viewers on the video
you don't tell them like uh this is what
happened you just say like well his last
name was lacks and he was her great
grandfather yes
um he was her great grandfather so
(06:27):
as most enslaved when they are freed
sometimes took their master's last name
oh okay in this instance I would say
they the last name was
more relational sure it was a little bit
more of both right yes yeah and that
(06:48):
also is not rare with enslaved
situations sometimes so Henrietta Lacks
is an example of that
and so she grows up on this tobacco farm
now if you watch the video we stand in
the tobacco farm area what we believe is
might have been theirs but it was it was
definitely tobacco farm we don't we
(07:08):
weren't sure if it was theirs but it was
that was an Old Farm I'm pretty sure it
took us out there the mark some yeah
some random GPS I mean we were literally
driving in my Forerunner like there was
barely a road it was kind of more of
dirt track and we stand out there and I
talk about Henrietta Lacks there so
tobacco farming is basically what is the
(07:30):
big
industry yeah yeah for for that area and
so that's what she does and kind of in
that sharecropper kind of idea right
where her family is now working the land
so she drops out of school in the sixth
grade and of course as you can imagine
it's probably segregated yeah right so
she has to probably walk farther away to
(07:51):
school and the family needs help at the
farm and money so she drops out and
helps support her family
they say she had hazel eyes a small way
size six shoe she's always wearing red
nail polish and a pleated skirt and the
few pictures that survive of her she
definitely looks like she
cares about
(08:12):
how she presents herself yeah I mean the
the picture that I found when I look her
up there's there's they the portrait I
think it looks like it was painted I'm
not sure so that was painted for the
National Gallery right and that's in the
Smithsonian the um yes and then and the
Smithsonian African-American history
right now they take they paint that
portrait off a photograph
of her yeah and the couple photographs
(08:35):
that do survive of her she is very well
presented like you can tell she really
cares about how she looks and that's
great you know good for her like she
just looks
good you know red nail polish pleated
skirt she keeps herself well put
together she cares about her how she
presents herself in 1935 when she's 14
(08:55):
she gives birth to her first child a son
so at that house where she lives with
her great-grandfather she also lives I
think with like her second cousin who
will become her husband so he's also
there I didn't realize they were like
distantly related yes okay and then in
1939 she gives birth to a daughter uh
(09:16):
her name is Elsie so she has two
children before she marries him David
lacks in 1941 so she has one child of 14
one child at 18 gets married at 20.
in Halifax County which is where Clover
is so in that county they get married
and it's later that year in 1941 that
(09:37):
they all moved to Baltimore Maryland and
they moved there for opportunity they
moved there to escape the racism this is
the beginning of the war
oh that's right this is right before
World War One started so I think they're
just trying to get away from
the lack of opportunity sure and there's
more opportunity up North so they moved
to Baltimore I think they have family
(09:57):
who had also moved there and said come
come here and there's more opportunity
here so that's where they go to
Baltimore Maryland and she has three
more children where they while they live
there
but it's there her last child is born in
November of 1950 and then in January she
goes to John Hopkins hospital because
that's one of the few places where
(10:18):
African Americans can go to be treated
it's still segregated it is a segregated
Hospital segregated waiting rooms but
she has her words are not in her womb
she thought it was her pregnancy right
she gives birth in November but then in
January the knot has not gone away so
she goes to John Hopkins University and
a doctor Dr Howard
(10:40):
John's takes a biopsy and
he takes a biopsy of off of a mass in
her cervix
and
the samples were given then to a doctor
guy and he's a researcher for John
Hopkins now at the time this is a normal
thing to do sure they're trying to
(11:01):
figure out what's going on so this would
happen to a white person or a black
person it would take a sample from
good healthy cell tissue and cancer cell
tissue compare the two they do that
nowadays yes so this is not you don't
need to give consent to have those
samples taken and tested sure I mean
you've basically when you come in and
(11:21):
you say like I'm signing all the forms
to say like yeah I'm not going to sue
you if you help me out and you're doing
all this stuff like that's what you're
signing so it's Dr guy who's the
researcher John Hopkins who takes these
cells and he's the one who and we'll get
into what happens he discovers this cell
line and he calls it the Gila cell line
yeah now what's unique about her cell
(11:41):
line well we'll talk more about that but
let me talk more about her life okay
sure
so Gila is the first two initials of her
first name and the person initials of a
last name yeah that was a cool that's
how they then and that was just a
typical way of labeling cell lines it
wasn't unique to her this is how they
would do everybody's cell line these
(12:03):
easy way to classify them
uh she goes back to the hospital for
severe abdominal pain in August of 1951
she stays there and she dies in October
October 4th 1951 and she's buried in
Clover in an unmarked grave until 2010
and she dies at 31 years old yeah so
(12:23):
what happens is Dr guy after taking
these cells
he notices that they not only produce at
a high rate but they are they stay alive
they don't they don't die
so you can keep them alive long enough
to examine them to do tests on them
(12:43):
which which wasn't normal it's never
never been seen before right most cell
lines die quickly they can't survive
outside the body they don't multiply
like that now was it these were like the
cells that were already affected by the
cancer so
they're not sure quite what happened
what happens is I think they what I
(13:04):
believe when I was reading is they took
a cell from the cancer so a mutated
malignant cell and he made the cell line
from one of those cells so it actually
is like a a cell line that has been
adapted from her cell line sure sure so
it is it quite technically
a a healthy Gila right or right cell
(13:25):
right it is a cancerous and then it's a
line that's been made from that right
and they're the first cells that could
be divided multiple times without dying
and that's why they're called Immortal
so that's why it's the immortal
Henrietta Lacks and it's not even so
much that it's like right cells right
there's I'm not I'm not I've never
(13:46):
claimed to be good at science right but
so you can split a cell I'm assuming
tons of times but it's basically it just
won't die like this like this to this
day right as we are recording it's 2022.
her cell line is a lie it's alive it's
the one that's been used it's for
biomedical research it's the most
(14:07):
contemporary used cell line yeah it's
just when I heard that one you kind of
think like does this woman have like
super powers yes it's crazy so that's
kind of what we talk about in the video
is we I equate her to Wonder Woman yeah
I equate her to the closest thing you
will ever know to a superhero sure
because you know those superheroes those
cells regenerate quickly they know they
(14:29):
don't die because Wolverines yeah they
can heal fast yeah right now it's not
quite the same thing but it's the
closest thing you'll get to it is
because her cell line that one specific
cell
it repeatedly divides and divides and
divides and they can make samples of it
and send them off in all the little
vials and these have led to huge
breakthroughs like the Gila cell line
(14:50):
developed the polio vaccine yeah the
hela cell line developed
um the AIDS we did the AIDS research
cancer research it's it's the first cell
that was cloned in 1955 and there's 11
000 patents that the Gila cell line has
developed
[Music]
(15:13):
and if I remember right when I was
making the video and doing you know my
little bit of post right what all the
research that you do right I'm looking
up stuff I mean it actually the the cell
kind of got out into the the greater I
say medical community around the world
pretty quickly oh yes everyone uses it
yeah I mean and not just us worldwide
(15:33):
worldwide and you so there are companies
that you can buy sells from to do
research yeah and they mass-produced the
hela cell line so it's basically a
commercialized cell line yeah it's and
so that's where you get into the ethics
right of this because so much money has
been generated from her cell line right
right not even millions billions of
(15:54):
dollars yeah easy and so then you have
her family she dies at 31 right and she
has
how many children by that point she has
six
three which is five five children by
that point and they get
just you know then they get distributed
to family right because she died yeah
(16:17):
and they suffer trauma people who didn't
want to raise them or weren't very good
caregivers and they grew up in relative
poverty some of her children can't even
afford medical insurance and here her
cell line is developing these huge
breakthroughs in medical research
generating billions of dollars and her
(16:41):
family can't get their own medical
coverage right so what happens is
people don't want to know more about the
cell line who are these people who are
who's this family that that this selling
came from so they would get phone calls
through the years oh uh how often were
(17:02):
you sick
what happened to your family researchers
trying to do kind of post whatever
follow-up yeah
they didn't quite understand what they
were being asked and told especially her
husband when they said well we have her
cell line here he thought is she still
alive like what what are you saying I I
she died like they didn't quite
(17:22):
understand yeah and so not only are they
using their mothers and wives cell line
but they start to really dig into their
medical history sure and so that kind of
ethical questions of their medical
history being so
relatively public I mean even though
it's like medical you know HIPAA and all
(17:43):
that stuff when there's that many
medical laboratories it's hard to say
that that's private yes and so that's
where more ethics comes into play plus
she's African-American so you fall into
these other ethical questions the
Tuskegee experiment where they gave all
these men African-American men syphilis
unbeknownst to them to see what it would
(18:04):
do to them and that happened in 1950s
right you have all these
African-American women who were enslaved
who were tested on by doctors who became
the fathers of gynecology
and these women gave no consent and they
found out all about women's reproductive
Health by testing these enslaved women
(18:26):
yeah and these men then get revered
as breakthroughs in medical science so
yeah there's a lot of questions yeah so
that's where Gila Henry lacks falls into
that realm yeah so you start to question
well are we
are we overlooking her rights because
(18:46):
she's African-American are we
overlooking her rights because she's a
woman are we looking at where she comes
from so those are the kind of questions
so her family when this was all brought
to light when they could understand what
was happening
that's when they kind of pushed back and
asked for more say and what happens to
herself ask for more just a seat at the
(19:07):
table
[Music]
yeah I mean she didn't have you
mentioned it in the video I mean her
grave didn't even have a headstone until
like a few years ago yeah 2010 and it
was Dr Gay and his group from John
Hopkins that sponsored that that I
didn't realize that they are the ones
who paid for it that's actually kind of
(19:28):
cool it is I mean they will never they
never admitted any wrong during
apologized but they would do
stuff like that sure right so very aware
of what they're doing and saying without
saying it yeah I didn't realize that
they were the ones who who helped do
that yeah and then I think they've also
(19:48):
funded like some other family headstones
I don't know if it's them but like so
what family has written yes so for for
at least for for Elsie
um who had a hard life because she was
born with a mental handicap and then she
was institutionalized
their family when they knew that
Henrietta Lacks was getting a tombstone
the family raised money to make sure
that she had one as well yeah so that's
(20:08):
what that other when you see the two
tombstones they look relatively newer
yeah and that's why that's if you can
find if you can find so that's that was
part of our journey yeah absolutely so
putting the story together
again she should be more revered and
more celebrated and when you go to
Clover there is a marker to her but that
(20:29):
is it and we wanted to find her grave
and we really wanted to pay respects to
her gray but her grave is unmarked her
grade was marked but it's in an unmarked
graveyard right well so let me let me
kind of paint the larger picture here so
here we are driving from Norfolk out to
Clover it's about three hours it's three
hours yes kids are Troopers right the
(20:50):
the marker is pretty easy to find that's
the first thing I think that we found
it's right off the kind of little main
highway freeway there so we we find that
you know and then we kind of like you
don't your kind of research ahead of
time and be like okay I think this is
where either her husband's grave might
be so we went to find a grave we went to
find a grave and find a grave gives you
usually gives you like a GPS coordinate
(21:10):
yeah and it gave us a GPS coordinate for
her for the marker oh on this side of
the road yeah and then I usually what I
do when I do grave research these are
the kind of helpful hints that I give is
look up a spouse or a child that's
buried close by and sometimes it'll give
you that marker yeah and you can find
them that way so we did her husband
(21:33):
that's why we went over there and for
David uh lacks it gave us that that GPS
coordinate rate in that tobacco farm
area and so to anybody listening I would
not recommend trying to drive out to you
need a four-wheel drive you need a
four-wheel drive vehicle we were driving
like off I think there's a sign that's
(21:53):
like you're no longer driving in like
state-funded roads right it's all of a
sudden it was dirt and gravel and you
know just kind of we're out there in the
boonies so that's why I thought the
grave uh the the graveyard was that's
worth it it kind of would have kind of
would have made sense sure so we looked
around couldn't find it and I knew she
had a tombstone I knew she had a
(22:14):
memorial marker we weren't seeing
anything we weren't seeing anything like
that so we drove back out and as we're
driving out we see a car on the side of
the road and I'm I told Scott I'm just
gonna ask this person because we're in a
small town I grew up in a small town I
know small town thank God you did
because I am not that person maybe it's
just because I'm a guy and I don't want
to ask directions but I was like ah we
(22:34):
can't find this we're driving back out
this is like one little road yeah
was it lacks road yeah it lacks yeah Lex
Road
um Lex family Road
lacks Town Road LAX town LAX town road
so where we drove in dockstown road all
the way till the dirt off the off the
Incorporated part of it you know back in
the boonies back there I mean Clover
(22:55):
Virginia is is pretty remote there might
be a town of like maybe a couple hundred
people yeah I don't even know if the
town's incorporated or if it's an actual
town I'm not sure but we're driving back
out we're like we're kind of getting
frustrated we're hoping we can find it
we're looking around we see this truck
just kind of looks like someone's
waiting for someone to come out of their
house sweet Jen's like windows open yeah
(23:17):
she's like she's like Scott pulled next
to this person I'm gonna ask I was like
okay fine so you do and then she just
strikes up a conversation yeah I asked
that ma'am we're looking for Henrietta
lack's grave do you know where it's at
she goes oh Henny yeah her grave is back
the way you came yeah you're gonna go
down the hill and you're gonna see a
house on the right a yellow house with
the door open it's an old house yeah
(23:38):
very country directions yeah it was
quite adorable she's like and when you
see that house it's just right off right
off beside it you'll see a little path
and which there's no path it's just
grass yeah yeah I mean luckily we were
there in winter so it's a little bit
easier to see because all the leaves
were off the trees and she's like and
you just drive up that path and don't
worry it looks like you're driving on a
lawn but you're not just drive up that
(23:59):
path and you'll see it when you get up
there and I was like okay so down the
hill and she's like yeah just just down
the hill don't go back up the hill and I
told her we just went over a bridge she
goes no don't go that's too far she goes
just down the hill you'll see the yellow
house with the door open it's open
because no one lives there anymore and
it's it's an old abandoned house it's an
abandoned house she goes and that's
where you're gonna it you won't see a
(24:21):
road or anything you'll just go right
beside it you'll see some grass area
drive on that and drive up over that
hill and that's and I would say you
don't need four-wheel drive to get up
there no I wouldn't say that it's it
wasn't it wasn't that bad but that those
were good directions yeah and you
wouldn't we wouldn't be able to find
another one there's no sign there's no
nothing you can't see it from the road
(24:41):
you would think it's someone's lawn yeah
so we have GPS locations like precise
GPS locations for that you know on our
website if you want to look up the
episode travel guide for for that
particular episode yes and I you know I
posted some of this on Facebook finding
the grave and I had some people say well
maybe their family doesn't want you to
know don't want you to see it but the
family has explicitly said they want her
(25:03):
story told yeah they want her celebrated
they want people to know her they want
people to celebrate her and respect her
so I felt like no I think they want
people they're they're pretty public
about it I mean when I Googled you know
the lacks family and Henrietta Lacks I
mean part of the top hits was like some
recent lawsuits that they're trying to
(25:23):
that they're they're kind of working on
again some of these big medical
companies that are excuse me um making
making money off of this exactly so we
we went to the Grave there's there's
about 20 Graves yeah easily it's
definitely a family yeah it's a family
plot yeah plot
um and we left our Wonder Woman figurine
(25:44):
at her grave and we paid our respects uh
her grave looks like a book
almost and I think her family wrote the
Epitaph okay so I think it was her
granddaughters who wrote the Epitaph on
the front but it's very respectful she's
buried beside her mother
and then she has a
uh her daughter Elsie on the other side
(26:05):
so it's her mother on one side and Elsie
on the other side so I think it's a very
for me it was just a very important
place to be there it looked like a very
solemn place and beautiful place I'm
happy we found it you never would have
been able to find it no no we got we got
we got super lucky I think I saw one
YouTube video
it was like somebody looked like they
(26:25):
were in their Jeep showing that they
were driving up up to it but it's only
because I was specifically Googling you
know Henrietta Lacks you know Family
Cemetery or something and so I was able
to find it and you could see right but
he's not really talking it's just kind
of him showing driving up that way
um but really learning about her in
general and then learning the Legacy
(26:46):
that she left through
medicine and the history there it was
quite incredible yeah it
here is a person who her life
and her cells
have made an immeasurable impact on all
of us on medicine like there's nobody
really who has not been touched by what
(27:09):
her cells have been able to produce in
the medical world the covid vaccine yeah
I mean so it's the work again this is
2022 right so if you're listening to
this in the future it's 2022 right now
the coveted vaccine right they used her
cells to develop that so it was just
learning all this and making the video
was was really pretty neat because here
(27:29):
is someone who's
I don't know if that she's really taught
in in history classes and this that and
the other but the impact that she had
and she's well enough known that she
there was a you know movie made and
Oprah was in it and this that and the
other but it was pretty incredible so
Henrietta Lacks may not have known what
her Legacy would be but it's there
(27:50):
nonetheless her sales for right or wrong
have provided medical breakthroughs that
doctors have only dreamed of before the
hela cell was named it became widely
known and used in medical research
so next time you talk to someone who's
received a cancer treatment HPV vaccine
and vitro fertilization and yes the
(28:11):
covid vaccine think of Henrietta Lacks
thank you for listening to the talk with
History Podcast and please reach out to
us at our website talk with history.com
but more importantly if you know someone
else that might enjoy this podcast
please share it with them especially if
you think today's topic would interest a
friend shoot him a text and tell them to
look up a talk with history podcasts
because we rely on you our community to
(28:31):
grow and we appreciate you all every day
thank you Henry relax and thank you to
her family we'll talk to you next time
foreign
[Music]
[Applause]
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.