October 27, 2025 • 27 mins
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Jenn recently guested on the Deep Focus Podcast with John Kiriakou. John, a former CIA Agent and whistleblower. He talks to Jenn about her inspirational journey as one of the first female helicopter pilots in her squadron, her military service post-9/11, and her transition to a career in history. The discussion covers Jenn's military family background, her decision to join the Navy, the challenges and triumphs of flight school, and the pivotal experiences that shaped her career.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Talk With History.
I'm your host Scott, and today my wifeand historian Jenn comes to you as a
guest on another podcast, Jenn recentlyguested on the Deep Focus Podcast
with host and former CIA Agent JohnKiriakou john was actually just on the
Joe Rogan podcast to talk about hiscareer in the CIA, how he was the head
(00:23):
of counter-terrorism in Pakistan afternine 11, and how he famously blew the
whistle on the agency's torture programand became the first former CIA official
to serve prison time related to the case.
John Kiriakou a rapidly growing audienceon YouTube, and he was gracious enough
to have Jenn on as a guest to talkin depth about her military service,
(00:43):
what it was like being one of thefirst female pilots in her helicopter
squadron, and what it was like tofly in combat right after nine 11.
We have the first part of thatconversation for you here, and if you
want to see the full interview, checkout the first link in this episode's.
Show notes.
(01:05):
Hi, I am John Kiriakou andwelcome back to Deep Focus.
You know, it's not often that wehave someone who is a bonafide hero.
On the show, but we have such a persontoday, and not only is she a hero, at
least in my estimation, not only doesshe have a wonderful story to tell about
wartime and what it was like going intowar in the immediate aftermath of nine 11.
(01:30):
But she has a fascinating storyabout her post-military career.
Jennnifer Bennie was a helicopter pilot.
She had a great career, an importantcareer, and, and a career in which
she accomplished a great many things.
We're gonna talk about that.
But then after her military career,she decided to focus on history, the
(01:50):
same kind of history that I like.
So.
I'm not gonna tell her story.
I'm gonna let her tell her story.
Jennnifer, welcome to the show.
It's good to see you.
Thank you for having me.
It's good to see you too.
So, I wanna talk first about yourdecision to join the military.
Do you have a military tradition inyour family or was this something you
(02:10):
just decided was the right thing to do?
My parents are both, uh, mil Air Force.
Uh, they're Air Force Veterans.
They're Air Force Security Police.
I was born at, inFayetteville, North Carolina.
My parents was stationed at Pope, but Iwas born at Fort Bragg because the Army
Hospital was the only hospital there.
(02:32):
And uh, and it's interestingbecause my mom was one of the
first female security police in.
The Air Force, and she was the,actually the first one in Abdo, Italy.
And, uh, she met my dad.
My mom's from Queens, New York,uh, raised in Jackson Heights,
went to PS 69, Bryant High School.
(02:53):
My dad is a small town Pennsylvaniaboy from the outskirts of
Pittsburgh, a big corn fed.
You know, he, his claim to fame was hishigh school football team won the entire
state championship for Pennsylvania.
Right.
What, what, what town was that?
It's Houston, Pennsylvania.
It's south of Pittsburgh.
(03:13):
I actually went to the same highschool, 'cause when my father
got out of the military, wemoved back to be close to family.
I graduated with 69 people.
That's how big this high schoolis, and they won the entire state
championship for Pennsylvania.
So that was his big claim.
But he's a big guy.
Six three.
Two 40 big guy, a lineman, and sohe meets my mother in, in Italy.
(03:34):
Doesn't think women should be inthe military, thinks that they
make everyone weaker, that he, theyhave to watch out for the women.
My mom stood up, Queens, New York,said, I you, if you have a problem
with that, then you shouldn't behere because I'm doing my job.
You need to do yours, not focus on me.
And they got married three months later.
So.
Those are my parents, right?
(03:54):
And so when my mom was in, theyfrom Aviano, they got stationed at,
uh, at Pope and my mom was thinkingof getting outta the military.
She had just had, she had me, shehad my brother 18 months later, and
a Genor was walking around My motheragain, kind of poster child for.
Women in the, in the military at thetime, and so much so that she was
testing out the new maternity uniforms.
(04:16):
They didn't even have themat the time for the military.
And a general had askedher, what could I do?
Because she was like, I'mthinking of getting out.
I just had kids.
And he goes, what could I do tomake you stay in the military?
And she goes, if I had water to Hawaii.
I'd stay in.
So three months later, my mom hadorders to Bellows Air Force Base in
Hawaii, which is the recreational base.
If you know anythingabout it, it's all cabins.
(04:37):
Obama would stay there.
They have a presidential cabin there.
Uh, and so my father also gotorders to bellows, uh, Magnum PI
would film on Bellows while, while.
Uh, it was there because the,the public couldn't come on.
My mom was a personal bodyguardfor Tom Selleck, right?
So I'm a little kid notknowing anything, right.
And I'm like, oh, Tom, you know,I thought his name was fabric.
(05:00):
I mean a magnum.
And he would carry me around.
But it's this time we moved, we gotorders after that to Wyoming and I
saw the Thunderbirds for the firsttime and I said, I'm gonna do that.
I'm gonna fly jets and.
If you know anything about, mymaiden name was Mitchell, so if you
(05:21):
know anything about Top Gun, right?
I, I was the real Lieutenant MitchellNa, Naval Aviator, Lieutenant Mitchell.
So my, my, I was never marriedin the military, so my name
the entire time was Mitchell.
And so Jet, jet, jet Jets,I'm gonna go Air Force.
So my father gets out ofthe military in Wyoming.
We move back to Pittsburgh.
(05:42):
I go for the Navy scholarship.
I, I go for the air, the militaryscholarship to Penn State.
And I went to the Air Force first and theAir Force said, you have to major in math.
We love you, we think you're great,but you have to major in math.
And I was like, uh, I'mnot sure if I want math.
One floor up was the Navy.
And I said, what, what can you guys offer?
(06:03):
And they said, we love you.
We would love for you to be a pilot.
Uh, you made what you want.
And I said, I'm gonna go Navy.
So that's why I completelychanged to Navy.
Still jets, though.
Still wanted to fly jets.
So between your junior andsenior year of ROTC, I had a full
scholarship to Penn State, R-O-T-C-I.
They send you to an aircraft carrierto see what you would wanna do
(06:24):
in the, in the military, right.
I got sent to the Eisenhowerin the Mediterranean.
Wow.
1998. I've, I've
Eisenhower, it's a city on the water.
Yes, and it was, I flew into nice, likeit's my first time going to Europe.
I flew into Nice, I met theship in in Cannes, right?
I saw where the CANS film festival was.
(06:44):
I'm like, this is amazing.
And met the ship and they attached meto the helicopter Squadron because.
They had a female pilot and they wantedme to interact with a female pilot.
I'm like, helicopters.
I didn't even know theNavy had helicopters.
I thought that was Army.
And on an aircraft carrier, thehelicopter job is pretty much
(07:05):
one of the most boring jobs.
You're the first tolaunch, the last to land.
You fly what they call starboard D,so it's a starboard, looks like a D.
You fly in a circle on the starboardside of the ship and you're waiting.
For someone to crash, right?
You're the first.
That's why their first one launched.
So they can do all their air ops,and then you're the last one to land.
So when all the air Ops are done,you land and you're just, you're
(07:26):
airborne in case something happens.
Right?
I
didn't know they did that.
That's the first timeI've ever heard that.
Yes.
And so I was like, oh,helicopters, whatever.
I wanna fly in the F 14.
So I had gotten all of myqualifications before I left.
I, now I, I, we'll caveat about this.
I'm a swimmer and I'm not just a swimmer.
I'm a butterfly.
So I have very strongarms, strong shoulders.
(07:48):
So I had to do all the parachute stuffwhere they drag you through the pool
and you have to unleash yourself.
I had to do the dunkers, and I got all thequalifications too, if I was to get a hop.
In a jet.
I was ready to do that.
I made sure I had all of it before Iwent out on this Midship and Cruise.
This is 1998.
(08:09):
No women and any of theseJudd squadrons, right?
Women had just been allowedinto combat three years earlier.
But it wasn't like, I tellpeople that it was like it was
all these women waiting, right?
They, they allowed it, butthere weren't women doing it.
There were a couple women whohad qualified, but they weren't
deployed or anything like that.
And so I walk into, and this isthe Jolly Rogers, so they're the
(08:32):
skull and the crossbones, right?
And, uh, they, they took nomidshipmen, usually midshipmen
get attached to a squadron.
I was attached to the helo squadron.
I think there was s threesthat took another midshipman.
Uh, I walk into this F 14 ready room.
I sit right in the front row andif you any know anything about a
ready room on an aircraft carrier,the front row is CO xo, opso admin.
(08:57):
It's all the high ranking office.
I sit right in the front row.
As the commanding officer is speakingat the podium and he looks at me
in very colorful language and tellsme to get out of his ready room
and I say, no, I'm not leaving.
I'm like, this is mydream and I wanna fly.
I tell people, a lot of times mysmart mouth either gets me something
pretty amazing or in a lot of trouble,and this was a moment, one of those
(09:21):
defining moments in my career.
And he looked at me and hegoes, in another California,
where do you go to school?
And I said, sir, I go to Penn Stateand he goes, big 10, you're flying.
'cause he went to Indiana in the Big 10.
And that moment he did that.
Every guy in that squadrontreated me fantastic.
(09:42):
I was allowed to go intothe, the Jolly Rogers.
Anytime I wanted, theygave me their patches.
I flew in an F 14 off a carrier,sat in the backseat like Goose.
We the co flew at the same time in hisjet, played the Indiana fight song.
And I was, I was like, this is it.
I'm gonna fly jets.
We caught the trap on the way in.
It was amazing, right.
(10:02):
I, I, it was one of the greatestmoments in my aviation career.
Like, I just, it was amazing.
Everything I wanted, I knew this waswhat I wanted to do, and like I said,
they were, he was great with me.
They were all great.
Three days later, I'm in the Hilo,because again, I could choose
what flights I wanted to fly everyday on in the helicopter, because
(10:23):
I'm attached to that squadron.
I just sit in the back withthe rescue swimmers, right?
And I'd be like, I'llgo on this flight today.
Get off the carrier.
Something fun to do.
We're in starboard D I'm backwith the rescue swimmers.
There's two of them back there.
We're kind of just goofing aroundand we hear aircraft in the water.
Like you hear the thing thatyou're like, oh my gosh, and I'm,
my eyes got so big, we all, andthey start throwing their gear on.
(10:45):
Two F fourteens had hit each other.
Oh my God.
They had clipped wings, just like,um, they were trying to dog fight,
which we don't really practice as muchanymore because there's not really a
country that can fly as well as us.
It's not an ally.
So they clipped wings.
They got too close.
The pilot I had flown withactually was one of them.
(11:06):
He made it back to the carrier.
The other one went into the Mediterranean.
And just like in Top Gun, the pilotdied, he hit his head on the canopy, got
wrapped up in the parachute and drowned.
We rescued the NFO Naval FlightOfficer like Goose who sat in the back.
When you sit on an ejection seat, youwear these shin straps that pull your
(11:27):
legs up under the seat 'cause you'rebasically sitting on a rocket, right?
Well one of them had failedand he basically saw his leg
shoot up right in by his face.
So he had broken his leg basically.
And um.
I was barely attached.
And so when they got him into theHilo, he's screaming, the rescue
swimmer's splinting it and wrappingit, and we're going back to the
(11:48):
carrier, and then they eventually willfly him to Turkey to save his leg.
I help with the stretcher, right?
Because they get him and, andI'm, again, I'm a midshipman.
I know nothing, but I'mwearing a flight suit.
I'm in the back of this Hilo.
I'm watching everything, andI just help with the stretcher
as we get to the carrier.
And he looks up at me and he said,when I heard the rotors coming,
(12:10):
I knew I was gonna be okay.
And that's when I said, I'mgonna be a helicopter pilot.
Oh yeah.
Right.
What year was that?
This was 1998.
And I'm still friends with that NFO.
I am friends with him on LinkedIn.
Um, the pilot I flew with hassubsequently, he, he, we went on
(12:31):
to be a commanding officer of flu ffourteens, but he subsequently has
died of cancer and he's at Arlington.
I visit his grave and tell his story.
His call sign was Rhino.
But, uh, after that Iwent to flight school.
So this is, I graduatefrom Penn State, 1999.
You graduate in uniform, yourcommission the day before you graduate.
So when my parents come to mygraduation, they can at least
(12:54):
pick me out of the 10,000 people.
'cause I'm in my, uh, uniforminstead of cap and gown.
And then I go to flight schooland flight school again.
Being a swimmer was such a benefit for me.
I beat everybody in the pool.
We do a mile swim in full flight gear.
I beat everyone like.
(13:15):
Everyone, men, women, didn't matter.
I was first outta the pool.
So much so that the guys who ran thetraining tank gave me the best time.
They're like, Mitchell,this is the best time.
Can you beat it?
I'm like, I can beat it.
Get everyone outta my way, because youhave to swim around everybody, right?
And they're like, oh, we can't do that.
I'm like, I can't.
I'm trying to maneuver between everyonewho's slower, but I can beat that time.
(13:38):
Now, I didn't beat it because again,there was like 20 of us in the pool.
But um.
But I beat everybody and I made a point.
I could do pull-ups, I couldlift a guy on my shoulders.
I could do, I mean, I'm not a small girl.
I'm five seven.
And so it kind of helps becausewhen you're going through aviation,
uh, physiology, you have toget measured everywhere, right?
(14:00):
Shoulder to hip, hip to knee, uh,shoulder to the end of your hands.
'cause you've gotta fit in a cockpit.
That was built for men.
Right?
And so being a bigger woman helped andbeing able to do those things helped.
And I think having a mother who provedherself in, in a, a male dominated
field, she told me, just do the things.
(14:22):
Just do all the things and letthem see you do the things,
Jenn, and that'll be enough.
And it was true.
I trained with all these guys.
I could throw a guy on my shoulders andI never heard anything about she can't do
it.
So you weren't, you weren'tintimidated by this at all.
No.
And I tell people, they ask me,where does that confidence come from?
Yeah.
And I think it's because I had asix foot 4, 240 pound father who
(14:47):
a hundred percent believed in me.
Yeah,
right.
People always say, you're a woman inthe military, do you have daddy issues?
And I always laugh.
I'm like, I've, if you meet afather who loved and supported me
and I never had to worry about, youknow, having a male figure in my
life, uh, yeah, I had daddy issues.
I had a father who was a, he becabecame a high school football coach.
(15:10):
After that, he was also a, uh, youknow, in the law enforcement, and
he a hundred percent believed in me.
He was like, you can do it, Jenn.
Just go out there and do it.
I have a hundred percent faiththat you can, you can achieve this.
So, because I had the supportof both my parents, I didn't
care what anyone else thought.
I didn't, and I was, I was making thegrades, I was getting the scholarships.
(15:33):
I that had that greatexperience on the Eisenhower.
I felt very reinforced by myconfidence that I could do this.
But I tell people, flight school, right?
I graduated in 99, started flightschool in 2000, the beginning of 2000.
It's, it's hard.
I had never flown before.
Right?
No private pilot's license.
(15:55):
You started from scratch, so youstarted from scratch when you were,
when you were 17, 18 years old, youweren't out at the local municipal
airport in the, in the Sessman 172, taking the, the flight lessons.
No, because as much as like, I wouldhave loved to have done that, my
parents were blue collar workers.
Sure.
Right.
I, I could not have affordedschool without the Navy.
(16:17):
Uh, I had good grades, but not goodenough to get a full academic scholarship.
I had good grades to get a fullNavy scholarship, you know, and,
um, and so I, I had to work allmy summers just to afford the
basics when I got back to school.
And so, uh, I.
Never had a chance for any,anything sub, you know, extra
(16:42):
before I went to flight school.
Uh, I had just watched Top Gun amillion times, but I tell people your
first flight, they show you everything.
Your second flight, youtake off by yourself.
Your third flight, you land by yourself.
You can't do that.
You're out.
We're talking helicopters here.
I, I actually got my pilots.
No fixed wings.
Fixed wings, fixed wings first, okay?
Mm-hmm.
I got my pilot's license in,in 2000, the summer of 2000.
(17:06):
Um, only because I, I worked in a, ina group of five guys in, in the CIA
station overseas and in the course ofconversation one day they all mentioned
that they all had their pilot's licenses.
And I said, oh, please.
I said, if you dopes can getpilot's licenses, I can too.
And we laughed and Imentioned to my ex-wife, um.
(17:31):
Hey, everybody in the branchhas a pilot's license.
I think I'm gonna, I'mgonna give it a try.
She said, what?
You're too stupid toget a pilot's license.
You have to, you have to be good in mathand, and calculus and stuff like that.
So I went home on r and r. Mydad and I were in the car driving
to Walmart and there was, I, I'malso from Western Pennsylvania.
(17:54):
Newcastle, Pennsylvania, whichis just north of Pittsburgh.
I know that.
So, and we also had akiller football team.
Uh, still do, in fact we're,anyway, we're number one right
now, but that's a different issue.
So, um, I was taking a shortcut tothe Walmart and it was past the local
airport and they had a banner outfront and it said, learn to fly here.
(18:17):
So I said, dad, let mepull over for a minute.
I just wanna go in and askhim a couple of questions.
So I park the car I run in.
I said, how much does it costand how long does it take?
And he said, um, it's $5,000flat, and if you're serious,
you can do it in six weeks.
And so I learned to fly in six weeks.
Now landing is hard.
(18:40):
Taken off is easy.
Flying the plane, the plane wantsto stay in the air, it flies itself.
Mm-hmm.
Landing is hard.
And what I'm gonna ask you about in asecond is flying a plane is one thing.
Flying a helicopter is anentirely different animal.
Yes.
So
your training in a fixed wing aircraft.
(19:01):
Mm-hmm.
And then
what?
So everyone who goes to flightschool trains in fixed wing.
Um, and again, it's to weed you out.
And, and what do you, what kind of fixedwing are you training on a T 34 mentor?
You probably have seen them.
There's, they're on theflight deck of the intrepid.
Uh, they're painted orange and white.
Like, stay away from me.
(19:21):
Right, right.
Students are in here.
It's, it's a, it's a turbo prop.
It's a pretty powerful aircraft.
'cause I'll do my, I'll do allmy aerobatics in that aircraft.
I learned how to flyform in that aircraft.
I do a cross country in that aircraft.
That's what you all, everyone doesthis in primary flight school and
um, it's a lot of testing beforehand.
Like you said, it's a lot of likeaerodynamics and thermodynamics and.
(19:46):
Weather engines, they throw alot of testing quickly at you in
eight weeks, and you fail tillyou're out and 80% is passing.
So that's how they first weed you out.
And then it's a lot ofphysical fitness tests, right?
And that's, that's even before you fly alot of physical fitness tests and eyes,
all those things for pilots, right?
(20:08):
Colorblindness, eyes, all thosethings that could also disqualify you.
And then you start to flyfixed wing, which I like again,
first flight, they show you.
Second flight you take off.
Third flight you land and youbrief these flights for an hour
before you even get in the cockpit.
You have to talk through every procedure.
You have to have studied them.
(20:29):
And I always would get like the hardestguys, like the people who had the
reputation of being very difficult.
And I remember being like,okay, gotta do it, Jenn.
Gotta do it.
Right?
So I would just put my head downand study and learn and get in
there and just give it my best.
I think they wanna see that, right?
(20:51):
They want, they're tryingto weed out people who are
not confident in themselves.
'cause you want a confident pilot, right?
You want a pilot who'slike, I can do that.
I'll figure it out.
We'll get, we'll get in, we'll get out,we'll, we'll get them, we'll save them.
And so I think they're lookingfor that foundation of you
as a, as, even as a learner.
(21:11):
And so.
Yeah.
And I loved it.
I learned it quickly.
Right.
And I just, I loved being in the sky.
And I tell people, my first solo was,my 13th flight is your first solo.
And like you said, we fly every day.
And if you, I think you becomea better pilot flying every day.
It's a lot of study.
Absolutely.
(21:31):
Absolutely.
It's a lot of work.
Yes.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
But it's just like driving.
If you drive every day.
You're gonna be better.
And same thing with flying.
It's a, like you're studying your buttoff, but that 13th, that 13th flight,
your solo, you take off, you go toanother field, you do five touch and GOs,
and they watch you and they grade you.
And then you have like an hourto go back to the original, you
(21:55):
know, Pensacola original field.
And um.
I climbed up in close to the cloudsand I could see my shadow on the cloud,
and I could see just me in the cockpitlike no instructor, and I put my hand
on the windscreen and I had never felt.
Such a sense of accomplishment in my life.
Yeah.
Why know?
Like
(22:15):
I did it.
I did this from nothing.
Yes.
From nothing.
I, from nothing.
My dream.
I brought it all theway through to fruition.
I can do this.
Right.
And that's just my first solo.
From there you learn aerobatics,which is so much fun, you know,
spins and dives and rolls.
And then you do two solos doingthat on your own in the cockpit.
(22:38):
So you're pulling Gs and you'remaking sure you don't pass out
because you're flying solo.
Uh, I loved flying form.
You learn how to tuck in, right?
So when you see the blue angels, whenyou see the thunderbirds, how they're
tucked into each other, looking at asight picture, I tell people, you never
take your eyes off the other aircraft.
You're constantly looking at them.
You don't look at your cockpit at all.
(23:00):
You're making little movements tokeep that site picture perfect,
and the only person navigating isthe lead, the one who's looking
outside, you're just with them.
So you don't even knowwhen you're rolling.
You're just so tucked into thatsite picture that you're just
going, you don't even realize thatwhat you're doing aerobatics wise.
And so, uh, I loved form.
(23:20):
And then from there you graduate.
Primary intermediate is your crosscountry, and then you go to advanced.
And advanced is rotary wing.
Wow.
And yes, learning to hover is divine
because it is hovering is littlemicro movements they call it.
I, I'm stirring the soup right?
(23:41):
Because to hover, to hold a hoveris these little micro movements to
keep you in a nice, balanced hover.
And, uh, you learn all thesethings with helicopters because you
have to learn how to auto rotate.
Auto rotation can save your life.
It's the only way to save theaircraft from an engine failure.
You practice auto rotationevery time you fly, and so.
(24:05):
It was a different animal, but I loved it.
I loved, you're low, you're slow, youdo a lot of land navigation and uh, I
knew my job in the Navy would be a lotmore saving lives than taking lives.
And so, but, so this is all happeningin 2000 and I just finished flight
(24:29):
school the beginning of September, 2001.
And again, my mom's from New York.
I'm done with flight school.
It's September 4th.
I walk into my commanding officer'soffice and I said, uh, I, I, we
had talked before, they had neverhad a female pilot at all in Japan.
(24:50):
I wanted to be that female pilot in Japan.
My c said.
If you're first, Jenn, if you'refirst, I'll make sure you're
the first female pilot in Japan.
I walk into his office September 4th.
I said, how's it looking?
He goes, you're first, you're gonna Japan.
I'm like, awesome.
September 11th happens, right?
My parents are coming in for my wings.
(25:11):
September 14th, my mom calls me.
I'm sleeping in because I'mdone with flight school.
Uh, I pick up the phone.
My mom's from New York, right?
And she's like, turn on the television.
And I saw.
We, we, the first plane had hit,right, and that's when I was
like, what, what's going on?
Did they, was that a mistake?
Were they, was it, was it.
(25:32):
Out of fuel was the engine failureand they crashed and, and then
we saw the second plane hit on,I watched it on TV with my mother
and I said, mom, I gotta go.
I knew in that moment it was an attack.
I knew it.
And um, my commanding officershut down the base, right.
All the bases was shut down.
He called us all, told us to meethim at a waffle house off base.
(25:56):
My whole winging class, I'mwinging with about 20 people.
And we meet at the WaffleHouse and he's like, okay.
Uh, bases had been shut down.
This is when we knew everything.
We already, the Pentagonhad been attacked.
And so, um, Shanksville, thecrash had happened in Shanksville.
And so we all knew something was going on.
And he's like, you're anyonewho's coming to your winging, we
(26:18):
need all copies of documentation.
There's cars will be searched.
You only get one vehicle across.
Uh, so who's ever coming to your winging?
We need to all that documentation now.
Orders are being pulled.
And he looked at me and he goes,Jenn, they need you in San Diego.
And I said, yes, sir. He goes,that's where you're going.
I said, okay.
So I didn't even question it, right.
(26:40):
I didn't even question what helicopterwas flying, what was needed.
I, I tell people I joined the Navy.
To see the world, to get collegepaid for, to fly, and all of a sudden
now I'm gonna be fighting, right?
Fighting a war.
Now, I knew that could be apossibility, but it was not what
I had specifically joined up for.
(27:02):
But I was ready to do my job and, uh.
So September 14th happens, my parentscome to my winging, it's fantastic.
And then I'm supposed to ship outto San Diego to start Sears school.
So we'll talk about sea schooland waterboarding, right?
Um, I'm set to start SERESchool in October, 2001.
(27:25):
If you wanna hear what
SERE school was like, what it waslike flying over a rack before
we had troops on the ground,and what continues to drive gin.
Check out the Deep Focus podcaston YouTube, or just click the first
link in this podcast show notes.
We'll talk to you next time.
Welcome to Talk With History.
I'm your host Scott, and today my wifeand historian Jenn comes to you as a
guest on another podcast, Jenn recentlyguested on the Deep Focus Podcast
with host and former CIA Agent JohnKiriakou john was actually just on the
Joe Rogan podcast to talk about hiscareer in the CIA, how he was the head
(00:23):
of counter-terrorism in Pakistan afternine 11, and how he famously blew the
whistle on the agency's torture programand became the first former CIA official
to serve prison time related to the case.
John Kiriakou a rapidly growing audienceon YouTube, and he was gracious enough
to have Jenn on as a guest to talkin depth about her military service,
(00:43):
what it was like being one of thefirst female pilots in her helicopter
squadron, and what it was like tofly in combat right after nine 11.
We have the first part of thatconversation for you here, and if you
want to see the full interview, checkout the first link in this episode's.
Show notes.
(01:05):
Hi, I am John Kiriakou andwelcome back to Deep Focus.
You know, it's not often that wehave someone who is a bonafide hero.
On the show, but we have such a persontoday, and not only is she a hero, at
least in my estimation, not only doesshe have a wonderful story to tell about
wartime and what it was like going intowar in the immediate aftermath of nine 11.
(01:30):
But she has a fascinating storyabout her post-military career.
Jennnifer Bennie was a helicopter pilot.
She had a great career, an importantcareer, and, and a career in which
she accomplished a great many things.
We're gonna talk about that.
But then after her military career,she decided to focus on history, the
(01:50):
same kind of history that I like.
So.
I'm not gonna tell her story.
I'm gonna let her tell her story.
Jennnifer, welcome to the show.
It's good to see you.
Thank you for having me.
It's good to see you too.
So, I wanna talk first about yourdecision to join the military.
Do you have a military tradition inyour family or was this something you
(02:10):
just decided was the right thing to do?
My parents are both, uh, mil Air Force.
Uh, they're Air Force Veterans.
They're Air Force Security Police.
I was born at, inFayetteville, North Carolina.
My parents was stationed at Pope, but Iwas born at Fort Bragg because the Army
Hospital was the only hospital there.
(02:32):
And uh, and it's interestingbecause my mom was one of the
first female security police in.
The Air Force, and she was the,actually the first one in Abdo, Italy.
And, uh, she met my dad.
My mom's from Queens, New York,uh, raised in Jackson Heights,
went to PS 69, Bryant High School.
(02:53):
My dad is a small town Pennsylvaniaboy from the outskirts of
Pittsburgh, a big corn fed.
You know, he, his claim to fame was hishigh school football team won the entire
state championship for Pennsylvania.
Right.
What, what, what town was that?
It's Houston, Pennsylvania.
It's south of Pittsburgh.
(03:13):
I actually went to the same highschool, 'cause when my father
got out of the military, wemoved back to be close to family.
I graduated with 69 people.
That's how big this high schoolis, and they won the entire state
championship for Pennsylvania.
So that was his big claim.
But he's a big guy.
Six three.
Two 40 big guy, a lineman, and sohe meets my mother in, in Italy.
(03:34):
Doesn't think women should be inthe military, thinks that they
make everyone weaker, that he, theyhave to watch out for the women.
My mom stood up, Queens, New York,said, I you, if you have a problem
with that, then you shouldn't behere because I'm doing my job.
You need to do yours, not focus on me.
And they got married three months later.
So.
Those are my parents, right?
(03:54):
And so when my mom was in, theyfrom Aviano, they got stationed at,
uh, at Pope and my mom was thinkingof getting outta the military.
She had just had, she had me, shehad my brother 18 months later, and
a Genor was walking around My motheragain, kind of poster child for.
Women in the, in the military at thetime, and so much so that she was
testing out the new maternity uniforms.
(04:16):
They didn't even have themat the time for the military.
And a general had askedher, what could I do?
Because she was like, I'mthinking of getting out.
I just had kids.
And he goes, what could I do tomake you stay in the military?
And she goes, if I had water to Hawaii.
I'd stay in.
So three months later, my mom hadorders to Bellows Air Force Base in
Hawaii, which is the recreational base.
If you know anythingabout it, it's all cabins.
(04:37):
Obama would stay there.
They have a presidential cabin there.
Uh, and so my father also gotorders to bellows, uh, Magnum PI
would film on Bellows while, while.
Uh, it was there because the,the public couldn't come on.
My mom was a personal bodyguardfor Tom Selleck, right?
So I'm a little kid notknowing anything, right.
And I'm like, oh, Tom, you know,I thought his name was fabric.
(05:00):
I mean a magnum.
And he would carry me around.
But it's this time we moved, we gotorders after that to Wyoming and I
saw the Thunderbirds for the firsttime and I said, I'm gonna do that.
I'm gonna fly jets and.
If you know anything about, mymaiden name was Mitchell, so if you
(05:21):
know anything about Top Gun, right?
I, I was the real Lieutenant MitchellNa, Naval Aviator, Lieutenant Mitchell.
So my, my, I was never marriedin the military, so my name
the entire time was Mitchell.
And so Jet, jet, jet Jets,I'm gonna go Air Force.
So my father gets out ofthe military in Wyoming.
We move back to Pittsburgh.
(05:42):
I go for the Navy scholarship.
I, I go for the air, the militaryscholarship to Penn State.
And I went to the Air Force first and theAir Force said, you have to major in math.
We love you, we think you're great,but you have to major in math.
And I was like, uh, I'mnot sure if I want math.
One floor up was the Navy.
And I said, what, what can you guys offer?
(06:03):
And they said, we love you.
We would love for you to be a pilot.
Uh, you made what you want.
And I said, I'm gonna go Navy.
So that's why I completelychanged to Navy.
Still jets, though.
Still wanted to fly jets.
So between your junior andsenior year of ROTC, I had a full
scholarship to Penn State, R-O-T-C-I.
They send you to an aircraft carrierto see what you would wanna do
(06:24):
in the, in the military, right.
I got sent to the Eisenhowerin the Mediterranean.
Wow.
1998. I've, I've
Eisenhower, it's a city on the water.
Yes, and it was, I flew into nice, likeit's my first time going to Europe.
I flew into Nice, I met theship in in Cannes, right?
I saw where the CANS film festival was.
(06:44):
I'm like, this is amazing.
And met the ship and they attached meto the helicopter Squadron because.
They had a female pilot and they wantedme to interact with a female pilot.
I'm like, helicopters.
I didn't even know theNavy had helicopters.
I thought that was Army.
And on an aircraft carrier, thehelicopter job is pretty much
(07:05):
one of the most boring jobs.
You're the first tolaunch, the last to land.
You fly what they call starboard D,so it's a starboard, looks like a D.
You fly in a circle on the starboardside of the ship and you're waiting.
For someone to crash, right?
You're the first.
That's why their first one launched.
So they can do all their air ops,and then you're the last one to land.
So when all the air Ops are done,you land and you're just, you're
(07:26):
airborne in case something happens.
Right?
I
didn't know they did that.
That's the first timeI've ever heard that.
Yes.
And so I was like, oh,helicopters, whatever.
I wanna fly in the F 14.
So I had gotten all of myqualifications before I left.
I, now I, I, we'll caveat about this.
I'm a swimmer and I'm not just a swimmer.
I'm a butterfly.
So I have very strongarms, strong shoulders.
(07:48):
So I had to do all the parachute stuffwhere they drag you through the pool
and you have to unleash yourself.
I had to do the dunkers, and I got all thequalifications too, if I was to get a hop.
In a jet.
I was ready to do that.
I made sure I had all of it before Iwent out on this Midship and Cruise.
This is 1998.
(08:09):
No women and any of theseJudd squadrons, right?
Women had just been allowedinto combat three years earlier.
But it wasn't like, I tellpeople that it was like it was
all these women waiting, right?
They, they allowed it, butthere weren't women doing it.
There were a couple women whohad qualified, but they weren't
deployed or anything like that.
And so I walk into, and this isthe Jolly Rogers, so they're the
(08:32):
skull and the crossbones, right?
And, uh, they, they took nomidshipmen, usually midshipmen
get attached to a squadron.
I was attached to the helo squadron.
I think there was s threesthat took another midshipman.
Uh, I walk into this F 14 ready room.
I sit right in the front row andif you any know anything about a
ready room on an aircraft carrier,the front row is CO xo, opso admin.
(08:57):
It's all the high ranking office.
I sit right in the front row.
As the commanding officer is speakingat the podium and he looks at me
in very colorful language and tellsme to get out of his ready room
and I say, no, I'm not leaving.
I'm like, this is mydream and I wanna fly.
I tell people, a lot of times mysmart mouth either gets me something
pretty amazing or in a lot of trouble,and this was a moment, one of those
(09:21):
defining moments in my career.
And he looked at me and hegoes, in another California,
where do you go to school?
And I said, sir, I go to Penn Stateand he goes, big 10, you're flying.
'cause he went to Indiana in the Big 10.
And that moment he did that.
Every guy in that squadrontreated me fantastic.
(09:42):
I was allowed to go intothe, the Jolly Rogers.
Anytime I wanted, theygave me their patches.
I flew in an F 14 off a carrier,sat in the backseat like Goose.
We the co flew at the same time in hisjet, played the Indiana fight song.
And I was, I was like, this is it.
I'm gonna fly jets.
We caught the trap on the way in.
It was amazing, right.
(10:02):
I, I, it was one of the greatestmoments in my aviation career.
Like, I just, it was amazing.
Everything I wanted, I knew this waswhat I wanted to do, and like I said,
they were, he was great with me.
They were all great.
Three days later, I'm in the Hilo,because again, I could choose
what flights I wanted to fly everyday on in the helicopter, because
(10:23):
I'm attached to that squadron.
I just sit in the back withthe rescue swimmers, right?
And I'd be like, I'llgo on this flight today.
Get off the carrier.
Something fun to do.
We're in starboard D I'm backwith the rescue swimmers.
There's two of them back there.
We're kind of just goofing aroundand we hear aircraft in the water.
Like you hear the thing thatyou're like, oh my gosh, and I'm,
my eyes got so big, we all, andthey start throwing their gear on.
(10:45):
Two F fourteens had hit each other.
Oh my God.
They had clipped wings, just like,um, they were trying to dog fight,
which we don't really practice as muchanymore because there's not really a
country that can fly as well as us.
It's not an ally.
So they clipped wings.
They got too close.
The pilot I had flown withactually was one of them.
(11:06):
He made it back to the carrier.
The other one went into the Mediterranean.
And just like in Top Gun, the pilotdied, he hit his head on the canopy, got
wrapped up in the parachute and drowned.
We rescued the NFO Naval FlightOfficer like Goose who sat in the back.
When you sit on an ejection seat, youwear these shin straps that pull your
(11:27):
legs up under the seat 'cause you'rebasically sitting on a rocket, right?
Well one of them had failedand he basically saw his leg
shoot up right in by his face.
So he had broken his leg basically.
And um.
I was barely attached.
And so when they got him into theHilo, he's screaming, the rescue
swimmer's splinting it and wrappingit, and we're going back to the
(11:48):
carrier, and then they eventually willfly him to Turkey to save his leg.
I help with the stretcher, right?
Because they get him and, andI'm, again, I'm a midshipman.
I know nothing, but I'mwearing a flight suit.
I'm in the back of this Hilo.
I'm watching everything, andI just help with the stretcher
as we get to the carrier.
And he looks up at me and he said,when I heard the rotors coming,
(12:10):
I knew I was gonna be okay.
And that's when I said, I'mgonna be a helicopter pilot.
Oh yeah.
Right.
What year was that?
This was 1998.
And I'm still friends with that NFO.
I am friends with him on LinkedIn.
Um, the pilot I flew with hassubsequently, he, he, we went on
(12:31):
to be a commanding officer of flu ffourteens, but he subsequently has
died of cancer and he's at Arlington.
I visit his grave and tell his story.
His call sign was Rhino.
But, uh, after that Iwent to flight school.
So this is, I graduatefrom Penn State, 1999.
You graduate in uniform, yourcommission the day before you graduate.
So when my parents come to mygraduation, they can at least
(12:54):
pick me out of the 10,000 people.
'cause I'm in my, uh, uniforminstead of cap and gown.
And then I go to flight schooland flight school again.
Being a swimmer was such a benefit for me.
I beat everybody in the pool.
We do a mile swim in full flight gear.
I beat everyone like.
(13:15):
Everyone, men, women, didn't matter.
I was first outta the pool.
So much so that the guys who ran thetraining tank gave me the best time.
They're like, Mitchell,this is the best time.
Can you beat it?
I'm like, I can beat it.
Get everyone outta my way, because youhave to swim around everybody, right?
And they're like, oh, we can't do that.
I'm like, I can't.
I'm trying to maneuver between everyonewho's slower, but I can beat that time.
(13:38):
Now, I didn't beat it because again,there was like 20 of us in the pool.
But um.
But I beat everybody and I made a point.
I could do pull-ups, I couldlift a guy on my shoulders.
I could do, I mean, I'm not a small girl.
I'm five seven.
And so it kind of helps becausewhen you're going through aviation,
uh, physiology, you have toget measured everywhere, right?
(14:00):
Shoulder to hip, hip to knee, uh,shoulder to the end of your hands.
'cause you've gotta fit in a cockpit.
That was built for men.
Right?
And so being a bigger woman helped andbeing able to do those things helped.
And I think having a mother who provedherself in, in a, a male dominated
field, she told me, just do the things.
(14:22):
Just do all the things and letthem see you do the things,
Jenn, and that'll be enough.
And it was true.
I trained with all these guys.
I could throw a guy on my shoulders andI never heard anything about she can't do
it.
So you weren't, you weren'tintimidated by this at all.
No.
And I tell people, they ask me,where does that confidence come from?
Yeah.
And I think it's because I had asix foot 4, 240 pound father who
(14:47):
a hundred percent believed in me.
Yeah,
right.
People always say, you're a woman inthe military, do you have daddy issues?
And I always laugh.
I'm like, I've, if you meet afather who loved and supported me
and I never had to worry about, youknow, having a male figure in my
life, uh, yeah, I had daddy issues.
I had a father who was a, he becabecame a high school football coach.
(15:10):
After that, he was also a, uh, youknow, in the law enforcement, and
he a hundred percent believed in me.
He was like, you can do it, Jenn.
Just go out there and do it.
I have a hundred percent faiththat you can, you can achieve this.
So, because I had the supportof both my parents, I didn't
care what anyone else thought.
I didn't, and I was, I was making thegrades, I was getting the scholarships.
(15:33):
I that had that greatexperience on the Eisenhower.
I felt very reinforced by myconfidence that I could do this.
But I tell people, flight school, right?
I graduated in 99, started flightschool in 2000, the beginning of 2000.
It's, it's hard.
I had never flown before.
Right?
No private pilot's license.
(15:55):
You started from scratch, so youstarted from scratch when you were,
when you were 17, 18 years old, youweren't out at the local municipal
airport in the, in the Sessman 172, taking the, the flight lessons.
No, because as much as like, I wouldhave loved to have done that, my
parents were blue collar workers.
Sure.
Right.
I, I could not have affordedschool without the Navy.
(16:17):
Uh, I had good grades, but not goodenough to get a full academic scholarship.
I had good grades to get a fullNavy scholarship, you know, and,
um, and so I, I had to work allmy summers just to afford the
basics when I got back to school.
And so, uh, I.
Never had a chance for any,anything sub, you know, extra
(16:42):
before I went to flight school.
Uh, I had just watched Top Gun amillion times, but I tell people your
first flight, they show you everything.
Your second flight, youtake off by yourself.
Your third flight, you land by yourself.
You can't do that.
You're out.
We're talking helicopters here.
I, I actually got my pilots.
No fixed wings.
Fixed wings, fixed wings first, okay?
Mm-hmm.
I got my pilot's license in,in 2000, the summer of 2000.
(17:06):
Um, only because I, I worked in a, ina group of five guys in, in the CIA
station overseas and in the course ofconversation one day they all mentioned
that they all had their pilot's licenses.
And I said, oh, please.
I said, if you dopes can getpilot's licenses, I can too.
And we laughed and Imentioned to my ex-wife, um.
(17:31):
Hey, everybody in the branchhas a pilot's license.
I think I'm gonna, I'mgonna give it a try.
She said, what?
You're too stupid toget a pilot's license.
You have to, you have to be good in mathand, and calculus and stuff like that.
So I went home on r and r. Mydad and I were in the car driving
to Walmart and there was, I, I'malso from Western Pennsylvania.
(17:54):
Newcastle, Pennsylvania, whichis just north of Pittsburgh.
I know that.
So, and we also had akiller football team.
Uh, still do, in fact we're,anyway, we're number one right
now, but that's a different issue.
So, um, I was taking a shortcut tothe Walmart and it was past the local
airport and they had a banner outfront and it said, learn to fly here.
(18:17):
So I said, dad, let mepull over for a minute.
I just wanna go in and askhim a couple of questions.
So I park the car I run in.
I said, how much does it costand how long does it take?
And he said, um, it's $5,000flat, and if you're serious,
you can do it in six weeks.
And so I learned to fly in six weeks.
Now landing is hard.
(18:40):
Taken off is easy.
Flying the plane, the plane wantsto stay in the air, it flies itself.
Mm-hmm.
Landing is hard.
And what I'm gonna ask you about in asecond is flying a plane is one thing.
Flying a helicopter is anentirely different animal.
Yes.
So
your training in a fixed wing aircraft.
(19:01):
Mm-hmm.
And then
what?
So everyone who goes to flightschool trains in fixed wing.
Um, and again, it's to weed you out.
And, and what do you, what kind of fixedwing are you training on a T 34 mentor?
You probably have seen them.
There's, they're on theflight deck of the intrepid.
Uh, they're painted orange and white.
Like, stay away from me.
(19:21):
Right, right.
Students are in here.
It's, it's a, it's a turbo prop.
It's a pretty powerful aircraft.
'cause I'll do my, I'll do allmy aerobatics in that aircraft.
I learned how to flyform in that aircraft.
I do a cross country in that aircraft.
That's what you all, everyone doesthis in primary flight school and
um, it's a lot of testing beforehand.
Like you said, it's a lot of likeaerodynamics and thermodynamics and.
(19:46):
Weather engines, they throw alot of testing quickly at you in
eight weeks, and you fail tillyou're out and 80% is passing.
So that's how they first weed you out.
And then it's a lot ofphysical fitness tests, right?
And that's, that's even before you fly alot of physical fitness tests and eyes,
all those things for pilots, right?
(20:08):
Colorblindness, eyes, all thosethings that could also disqualify you.
And then you start to flyfixed wing, which I like again,
first flight, they show you.
Second flight you take off.
Third flight you land and youbrief these flights for an hour
before you even get in the cockpit.
You have to talk through every procedure.
You have to have studied them.
(20:29):
And I always would get like the hardestguys, like the people who had the
reputation of being very difficult.
And I remember being like,okay, gotta do it, Jenn.
Gotta do it.
Right?
So I would just put my head downand study and learn and get in
there and just give it my best.
I think they wanna see that, right?
(20:51):
They want, they're tryingto weed out people who are
not confident in themselves.
'cause you want a confident pilot, right?
You want a pilot who'slike, I can do that.
I'll figure it out.
We'll get, we'll get in, we'll get out,we'll, we'll get them, we'll save them.
And so I think they're lookingfor that foundation of you
as a, as, even as a learner.
(21:11):
And so.
Yeah.
And I loved it.
I learned it quickly.
Right.
And I just, I loved being in the sky.
And I tell people, my first solo was,my 13th flight is your first solo.
And like you said, we fly every day.
And if you, I think you becomea better pilot flying every day.
It's a lot of study.
Absolutely.
(21:31):
Absolutely.
It's a lot of work.
Yes.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
But it's just like driving.
If you drive every day.
You're gonna be better.
And same thing with flying.
It's a, like you're studying your buttoff, but that 13th, that 13th flight,
your solo, you take off, you go toanother field, you do five touch and GOs,
and they watch you and they grade you.
And then you have like an hourto go back to the original, you
(21:55):
know, Pensacola original field.
And um.
I climbed up in close to the cloudsand I could see my shadow on the cloud,
and I could see just me in the cockpitlike no instructor, and I put my hand
on the windscreen and I had never felt.
Such a sense of accomplishment in my life.
Yeah.
Why know?
Like
(22:15):
I did it.
I did this from nothing.
Yes.
From nothing.
I, from nothing.
My dream.
I brought it all theway through to fruition.
I can do this.
Right.
And that's just my first solo.
From there you learn aerobatics,which is so much fun, you know,
spins and dives and rolls.
And then you do two solos doingthat on your own in the cockpit.
(22:38):
So you're pulling Gs and you'remaking sure you don't pass out
because you're flying solo.
Uh, I loved flying form.
You learn how to tuck in, right?
So when you see the blue angels, whenyou see the thunderbirds, how they're
tucked into each other, looking at asight picture, I tell people, you never
take your eyes off the other aircraft.
You're constantly looking at them.
You don't look at your cockpit at all.
(23:00):
You're making little movements tokeep that site picture perfect,
and the only person navigating isthe lead, the one who's looking
outside, you're just with them.
So you don't even knowwhen you're rolling.
You're just so tucked into thatsite picture that you're just
going, you don't even realize thatwhat you're doing aerobatics wise.
And so, uh, I loved form.
(23:20):
And then from there you graduate.
Primary intermediate is your crosscountry, and then you go to advanced.
And advanced is rotary wing.
Wow.
And yes, learning to hover is divine
because it is hovering is littlemicro movements they call it.
I, I'm stirring the soup right?
(23:41):
Because to hover, to hold a hoveris these little micro movements to
keep you in a nice, balanced hover.
And, uh, you learn all thesethings with helicopters because you
have to learn how to auto rotate.
Auto rotation can save your life.
It's the only way to save theaircraft from an engine failure.
You practice auto rotationevery time you fly, and so.
(24:05):
It was a different animal, but I loved it.
I loved, you're low, you're slow, youdo a lot of land navigation and uh, I
knew my job in the Navy would be a lotmore saving lives than taking lives.
And so, but, so this is all happeningin 2000 and I just finished flight
(24:29):
school the beginning of September, 2001.
And again, my mom's from New York.
I'm done with flight school.
It's September 4th.
I walk into my commanding officer'soffice and I said, uh, I, I, we
had talked before, they had neverhad a female pilot at all in Japan.
(24:50):
I wanted to be that female pilot in Japan.
My c said.
If you're first, Jenn, if you'refirst, I'll make sure you're
the first female pilot in Japan.
I walk into his office September 4th.
I said, how's it looking?
He goes, you're first, you're gonna Japan.
I'm like, awesome.
September 11th happens, right?
My parents are coming in for my wings.
(25:11):
September 14th, my mom calls me.
I'm sleeping in because I'mdone with flight school.
Uh, I pick up the phone.
My mom's from New York, right?
And she's like, turn on the television.
And I saw.
We, we, the first plane had hit,right, and that's when I was
like, what, what's going on?
Did they, was that a mistake?
Were they, was it, was it.
(25:32):
Out of fuel was the engine failureand they crashed and, and then
we saw the second plane hit on,I watched it on TV with my mother
and I said, mom, I gotta go.
I knew in that moment it was an attack.
I knew it.
And um, my commanding officershut down the base, right.
All the bases was shut down.
He called us all, told us to meethim at a waffle house off base.
(25:56):
My whole winging class, I'mwinging with about 20 people.
And we meet at the WaffleHouse and he's like, okay.
Uh, bases had been shut down.
This is when we knew everything.
We already, the Pentagonhad been attacked.
And so, um, Shanksville, thecrash had happened in Shanksville.
And so we all knew something was going on.
And he's like, you're anyonewho's coming to your winging, we
(26:18):
need all copies of documentation.
There's cars will be searched.
You only get one vehicle across.
Uh, so who's ever coming to your winging?
We need to all that documentation now.
Orders are being pulled.
And he looked at me and he goes,Jenn, they need you in San Diego.
And I said, yes, sir. He goes,that's where you're going.
I said, okay.
So I didn't even question it, right.
(26:40):
I didn't even question what helicopterwas flying, what was needed.
I, I tell people I joined the Navy.
To see the world, to get collegepaid for, to fly, and all of a sudden
now I'm gonna be fighting, right?
Fighting a war.
Now, I knew that could be apossibility, but it was not what
I had specifically joined up for.
(27:02):
But I was ready to do my job and, uh.
So September 14th happens, my parentscome to my winging, it's fantastic.
And then I'm supposed to ship outto San Diego to start Sears school.
So we'll talk about sea schooland waterboarding, right?
Um, I'm set to start SERESchool in October, 2001.
(27:25):
If you wanna hear what
SERE school was like, what it waslike flying over a rack before
we had troops on the ground,and what continues to drive gin.
Check out the Deep Focus podcaston YouTube, or just click the first
link in this podcast show notes.
We'll talk to you next time.
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