May 22, 2023 • 37 mins
🎙️
Most people think the American Civil War ended in the courthouse in Appomattox, Virginia...and most people are mistaken.
Join us as we talk about where the surrender took place and the name of the city where Ulysses S. Grant and Robert E. Lee carried out this historic event.
🚕 Google Map to Appomattox Courthouse
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jenn (00:00):
Wilber McLean can't seem to get away from the Civil War, right?
Because his home is destroyed.
He lives in the city of Manassas.
Uh, during the first battleof the Civil War, he wants to
move away from the fighting.
So he moves to the town of CloverHill, which becomes the town
of Appomattox Courthouse and.
(00:21):
When the surrender takes place, Marshall,who is Lee's a second right hand man,
um, aid has to find a suitable placefor surrender, and he finds the Wilber
McLean house in Mads Courthouse.
Scott (00:48):
Welcome to Talk With History.
I'm your host Scott here withmy wife and historian Jen.
Hello.
On this podcast, we give you insightsto our history inspired world travels
YouTube channel journey, and examinehistory through deeper conversations
with the curious, the explorers,and the history lovers out there.
Now, before we get into our main topictonight, I do want to ask for reviews on
(01:09):
Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you'relistening, the reviews really do help us.
To help the show grow and we are stillslowly plotting away at chipping away
at that lead with the History channel.
We're coming after you.
I'm not aware of podcasts that theyput on, so maybe, maybe we're ahead
of them on the podcast, right?
Yes.
I'm just, I'm just
Jenn (01:28):
gonna kind of throw, we're gonna have more subscribers
in the History Channel Someday
Scott (01:31):
we will.
Jen, why don't you tell uswhat we're talking about today?
One of our, our videos that we just
Jenn (01:38):
released.
Yeah.
This, uh, video and this podcast is avery important place and moment in time
for any history lever, any adventure,any explorer, because we go to a place
that's a, a bucket list historical
Scott (01:56):
location.
Yeah.
And you lead off the video.
I mean, right off with that.
Hey, bucket list.
Place for any history, fan or historian.
Mm-hmm.
So where were we?
We were at
Jenn (02:06):
Appomattox Courthouse in Virginia.
Scott (02:08):
So we, we were at Appomattox Courthouse.
So if you don't know, or if you,if you're, if you're just joining
us for the first time, uh, we justlive a couple hours away from there.
We live in Virginia and so wehad to get out to Appomattox.
Yes.
And we actually learned a fairamount while we were there.
Like you, you kind of done someresearch before we got out there,
but, um, one of the things.
(02:29):
That a lot of people didn't know waskind of the whole naming convention.
We kind of led off with that.
Jenn (02:33):
Yes, because it's always a confusing thing for any historian when
they talk about the surrender of theCivil War, and we'll go into some of the.
Feedback we've gotten frompeople the, this is the official
surrender of the Civil War.
This is where Lee and Grant will meet.
(02:54):
So you got the commander of theConfederate forces and the commander of
the Union forces are going to meet andactually work out terms of surrender.
There are other people, historianswho will surmise other moments
and battles that were the actual.
Surrendering points or when the thingwhen tides were turned towards surrender.
(03:18):
But this is the actual moment wherethey're gonna meet officially.
And, um, write up terms of surrender.
And so I wanna make that very clear.
Scott (03:27):
Yeah, we, we, we did, and it's common with, with all of our videos,
um, especially the more popular onesthat people always kind of jump in.
And we actually, we had, we hadsome folks kind of teach us, you
know, some, some interesting,interesting facts on different videos.
Like, you know, The namingconvention behind Bull Run
Manasas and things like that?
Yes, yes.
But for Appomattox specifically, uh, wealways, we had a few folks jumping in and
(03:48):
saying, Hey, this wasn't the actual end.
Like there was troops over herefighting like a few weeks later.
And that's
Jenn (03:54):
true because I mean, things aren't, Communication isn't traveling quickly.
Yeah.
Right.
It's not like it's a phone call.
Okay.
War's over.
It doesn't work that way.
It's
Scott (04:02):
the 1860s.
I mean, it takes weeks fora word to get anywhere.
To do anything.
Exactly.
Jenn (04:06):
So yeah, there were people still fighting.
Absolutely.
But this is the official surrender.
What was also interesting is you're gonna,if you're a, you know, moderate historian,
you know the surrender happened inAppomattox Courthouse and it sounds like.
A location, right?
A building.
A building.
And it is a building, but it'salso the name of the town.
(04:29):
And the surrender doesn't takeplace in the actual courthouse
building of Appomattox.
It takes place in them by clean house.
Which is located in the town of Appomattox
Scott (04:41):
Courthouse.
The, the Appomattox Courthouse, theactual building, the courthouse,
that's where the visitor
Jenn (04:48):
center is.
Yes.
And that has a great visitor center.
It's very good.
It's very good.
A lot of information.
They have a, a great movie thereand I think famous actors are in
that movie and it sets the tone.
For where you're at and thebuildup and what happened,
uh, that day in April in 1865.
(05:08):
So it's a, it's very good to getin there and watch that movie.
Plus they have some artifacts in there.
They have the actualsurrender table in there.
So it it, you definitely wanna visit theactual Appomattox Courthouse in Appomattox
Courthouse cuz it is the visitors
Scott (05:23):
center.
Yeah, so it's not, it wasn't the Apax,the actual building, the courthouse
building where the surrender took place.
But again, that, that visitor center andsome of the other things there, like,
they actually probably have one of thebest depictions of what it actually looked
like inside of the McLean house whenthey were sitting down and actually, you
know, signing the, signing the paperwork.
Yes.
Because they, they pointed out, oneof the things that I liked that they
(05:45):
pointed out, they said, Hey, thispainting over here, Is very famous
and a lot of people misconstruethat as what actually happened.
And it's the painting of Grantand Lee where they're almost like
sitting right at the same table.
Yeah.
Right next to each otherin the center of the room.
And that's actually in historically
Jenn (06:02):
inaccurate.
It's inaccurate.
And also you have George Custer therewho, who, he wasn't there in the room.
Uh, George Custer is pinnacle to.
The whole surrender in general, cuzhe's the first person to actually
get the surrender flag or dishtowel they use for the surrender.
But he's not in the roomwhen the official surrender
documents are written out inside.
(06:22):
He's outside, uh, with his men,so, They have him there, I think
is to pay some, to pay homage tohim in his part in the surrender.
But he wasn't in the room.
Yeah.
Scott (06:32):
So from there, we, we were in the actual courthouse itself,
which was a visitor center.
So we were chit-chatting andthis, that and the other.
And all of a sudden when we werethere, we hear this announcement,
you know, the the, the McLean house.
If you wanna see the McLean house, it willbe closing in like, It's like 10 minutes.
10 minutes.
It's 15 minutes.
Yeah.
You, you have 15 minutes and it'sclosing for the next 90 minutes.
(06:53):
And we're like, oh mygosh, what's going on?
We had just gotten there, so we ranover it kind of made our way up.
Mm-hmm.
And we didn't want to ha like, haveto wait to go to the one building
that we actually went to go see for90 minutes because they were, you
know, the people, they were working.
They were, they had to take a lunch
Jenn (07:07):
break.
So we've talked about will.
Mer McLean before, right?
We've talked about him on two separatelo uh, occasions with Walk with History.
We have visited his grave in theAlexandria Cemetery, and we had visited
kind of the area where his home wasin the first Battle of Bull Run,
the first battle of the Civil War.
(07:29):
He is also a historic characterof the Civil War because.
Wilber McLean can't seem to getaway from the Civil War, right?
Because his home is destroyed.
He lives in the city of Manasas.
Uh, during the first battleof the Civil War, he wants to
move away from the fighting.
So he moves to the town of CloverHill, which becomes the town
(07:52):
of Appomattox Courthouse and.
When the surrender takes place,Marshall, who is Lee's a second
right hand man, um, aid has to finda suitable place for surrender.
And he finds the Wilber McLeanhouse in Mads courthouse and the the
(08:13):
surrender takes place in the parlor.
So Wilbur McClean cannotget away from the Civil War.
Yeah, it begins and ends.
Uh, where he lives.
And,
Scott (08:21):
and that's, and it's funny, I've mentioned it a couple
times throughout this podcastand videos and things like that.
I love the random little historiccharacters that just pop up and are
well known for some one random thing.
And Will McClean is one of those I.
And so that just kind of made me smilebecause now we've kind of visited
where, you know, where the Civil Warstarted, where the Civil War ended,
(08:44):
and where Wilman McClean, who wasat both of those locations for both
times where he's actually buried.
Jenn (08:51):
So it's interesting that the town is called Appomattox Courthouse, and we
talk a little bit about that in the video.
Clover Hill, that town is about a hundredpeople, and it's a farming community,
so half of the people are enslavedbecause when you have farming in the
south, your laborers are enslaved.
So half of the town is enslaved.
(09:13):
It is along the Lynchburg Stagecoachline, and they decided to build a
courthouse there for government,for governing, so people in the
county can come and do their.
Ju ju judicial business.
When a courthouse is established,they start to call that area where the
(09:35):
courthouse is along the stage line.
They name it after the courthouse.
So even though it's the town of CloverHill and you Hill Clover Hill Tavern,
Uh, and that is the location wherethey print all the pardon slips.
After the surrender, it officially becomesthe town of Appomattox Courthouse after
the courthouse is established there.
And that is why.
(09:57):
When people say the surrender happenedin Appomattox Courthouse, you're like,
yes, the town of Appomattox Courthouse.
Wilber McClean's house, which isn'tvery far from Appomattox Courthouse.
So when they said you have 90minutes, you can just go out the
front door and it's a straight shot.
Yes.
Maybe 30 yards and it'sright there to the left.
Now what's interesting aboutthat home, it's built in 1848,
(10:19):
it, it has a tavern type.
Style to it if you've been to other,uh, colonial Tavern type homes.
But it was in the 1890s.
It was completely taken apart and theyhad finances who had come in, come
in and wanted to move it, and theywere gonna move it to Washington, DC.
(10:42):
Uh, and make it a museum so people couldgo in and visit and see where the official
surrender of the Civil War took place.
So they took it apart, they tookplans of it all, and it, and it
sat there and the financing fellthrough to actually move it.
So it sat as bricks and wood forabout 50 years and people would come
and take souvenirs and take a breakhere, take a piece of wood here.
(11:03):
And the, uh, national Park Servicebought it, uh, in 1939 and.
Rebuilt it to the specifications thatthey had, but the civil, the, uh,
world War II breaks out so it, theydon't have the financing right away.
So it takes about 10 years to rebuild it.
It opens to the public in 1949.
(11:24):
That's right.
But it is in the same location.
It is built to the specifications.
They have gotten furniture in thereto replicate what it looked like,
because we will talk about this.
The actual furnitureis in other locations.
But you get the sense of what that lookedlike that day, what Lee felt, what grant
felt as they're walking up the stepsand the people and the surrounding area.
(11:46):
So it is still very historicallyrelevant and they did use the same
materials that were left behind.
So it is a very historic place
Scott (11:55):
to visit.
Yeah.
And, and the house itself, I mean, evenfor the time, it must have been pretty
big cuz it, it's a decent sized house.
Even by, by today'sstandards when you think of a
Jenn (12:03):
tavern.
Yeah.
Having to entertain and feed a.
People who come to visit, it doeshave that kind of feel to it, so
Scott (12:11):
and so it makes sense that that's where they would pick.
Mm-hmm.
Because it had the space.
Right.
Even the room, you know, the, asyou kind of joke, the room where
it happened, um, you go in thereand, and it's a decent sized room.
You could see there was probably,what, 10 ish men in there?
Something like that.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's 12 men.
Mm-hmm.
And.
So, so it's, it's a decent sizedhouse, very picturesque, right.
(12:34):
With the courthouse on one end.
And then, you know, the, the parking lotwhere we drove up and parked on the other,
and then there's the McLean house andthere's other little, you know, the timing
when we went, you know, what was that,
Jenn (12:44):
April, early May.
The end of April.
So I bet it's very busy the beginning ofApril since that's the timeframe Oh sure.
Of when the surrender takes place.
Uh, April 9th.
1865, but we got there the end ofApril, which was perfect weather.
Oh it was.
And not
Scott (12:59):
very crowded.
It was, it was gorgeous.
If you're ever gonna go visitthat, the springtime is, is
fantastic cuz it was, everythingwas green, everything was in bloom.
Um, some of the bugs were outa little bit for, for us that
day, but it wasn't too bad.
Uh, not a lot of it wasn't very crowded.
And they have tons and tonsof signs and historic markers.
You can literally justkind of meander around.
(13:20):
Yes.
This small town, I meannow a national park.
And just kind of read everything all
Jenn (13:25):
along the way.
There's actually a hike you cando because Lee's headquarters and
Grant's headquarters are pretty spacedopposite each other in the area, and
you can actually hike from one to theother and it kind of goes through the
town of Appomattox Courthouse and.
You see people out there hiking andwalking and things like that, and
we visited other locations close.
(13:47):
Like we'll talk about theConfederate Cemetery we saw and
other kind of markers we saw.
But it is a really great locationif you wanna spend the day.
Uh, they have picnic tables andlike, if you wanna spend the day
with your family, it's a reallygreat place to kind of walk around.
It kind of reminds me of FirstBattle Bull run a little bit, maybe
a very, very, very smaller scale.
(14:08):
Gettysburg.
Type thing.
Sure.
But it's not really a drivabletrail like Yorktown or Gettysburg.
It's much more of a walking, butit is pretty much like a day trip.
Scott (14:22):
And I, I loved being out on the, the front steps of the McLean
house because you really could, and youdo a good job of kind of describing,
like imagine, you know, Being here.
Mm-hmm.
And Lee, you know, comes up to theMcLean house in his nice, clean uniform,
pressed, you know, all this stuff.
He gets there first.
He's hanging out for,for 30 minutes or so.
30 minutes, so, mm-hmm.
(14:42):
And then up, up comes Grant, just dirty.
He'd been riding mud.
Mud.
You can barely tell he's a general otherthan buying the jacket that he's wearing.
And you can picture both in this setting.
It's, it's one of those locations.
It's really, really neat.
And you can kind of really feel.
What it was.
What must have been like back then.
Yeah.
And I also imagine back then, becauseyou go on to say, to talk about how there
(15:06):
was, what's like 90,000 troops in area?
90,000
Jenn (15:09):
troops.
So you think 70, about 70,000 uniontroops, about 30,000 confederates.
And they're.
Camping out.
I mean, they're notstaying in the homes there.
They're put, they're intheir makeshift tents.
So when you look at all the greeneryin the area, you can imagine these
troops are camped out everywhere.
So it's very much a busy.
(15:30):
Hustle and bustle, and everyone'skind of watching for what's
happening in this house.
So what leads up to this, you'regonna get Richmond Falls on April
3rd, and Lee is leaving Richmond.
Richmond has fallen to the north and he'strying to make it west, and he's trying
to make it west to meet up with thearmies of North Carolina and Tennessee.
(15:51):
And so the union is trying tocut him off before he gets there.
So if you think of Appomattox askind of west to Richmond, Appomattox,
as I said, is on the stage line.
It's also on the railroad line.
And so Custer gets out there first on,uh, April 7th, and he's able to stop
these railroad cars that are bringingsupplies to the south and he burns them.
(16:14):
And that's when Leestarts to realize that.
He, he's not gonna beable to meet his men.
They're trying to cut him off.
And so Grant will send him anote on the seventh saying,
would you like to surrender?
And Lee is like, not yet, butwhat would that look like?
It's like, not yet, but what,what, what do you have in mind?
Um, so they're kind of negotiating this.
(16:34):
Lee still thinks maybe there'ssomething that he can do.
Maybe he can make it in time, but Custerand Sherman will actually completely.
Uh, cut off the Army at Appomattox andthere's no way that they can rejoin.
And so they do fight a little bit.
You get some fighting on the eighthand ninth, but it's Lee who decides,
(16:55):
uh, even though he says he ratherdie a thousand deaths, it's Lee who
decides to send the word to Grant.
Uh, they bring out, you know, they,they, they have the dish towel
they give to Custer cuz that's whothe actual fighting forces, uh,
long Street and Custer will meet.
Custer will stop fighting.
He will go through the linewith the towel and they'll like,
(17:16):
let's negotiate, surrender.
They'll get the no to Lee.
Ask Lee to find a location.
They find the McLean house grantwill have to ride at like 30
miles, which is crazy to meet him.
That's why he's so dirty.
And Lee gets there at one.
Grant will get thereat one 30 on April 9th.
Lee has been thinking about this.
(17:37):
Of course, he looks very clean,very pressed in his uniform.
Grants has also been thinkingabout this, but he's exhausted.
He's just hopping off his horse and mudcovered and when they've meet, they're
almost like in awe of each other.
They both study at West Point.
They both are skilled men.
(17:57):
Lee has been the commanderof the Confederate forces for
all four years, five years.
Grant has not.
But Grant has proven himself as a fighterand Grant stands so in awe of Lee.
He doesn't even know what totalk about when he comes in.
Yeah.
He's like trying to make
Scott (18:14):
chit
Jenn (18:14):
chat, chit chats about their, both their military experience in
the, in the Spanish American War.
Let's talk about in the MexicanAmerican world, let's talk
about what we are doing then.
And Lee's like, okay, um,let's talk about surrender.
So when they sit down to hash outterms of surrender, Like I said,
Lee will have one person with him.
Marshall will be with him.
(18:34):
Grant will have an entourage.
He has um, Sheridan.
He has, uh, Robert ToddLincoln is with him.
He has Eli Parker, who is of theSeneca American Indian tribe is with
him, and Eli Parker is the one who'sactually the scribe and the terms
that Lee is asking for, I think.
(18:55):
Are pretty reasonable.
And I think that's whyGrant grants them to him.
He asks, most of his men are farmersfrom the south and they will be
going back to their farms and alot of them own their own horses.
And the horses will be, Veryvaluable and important to farming.
Sure.
Right.
To putting in seeds and all thethings that you need on a farm.
(19:17):
And so he asks as if their men own ahorse, can they take the horse with them?
And Grant says that's that's fine.
And he also says, because they'refarmers and because they're traveling,
can they keep their side arms again,a gun at the time is seen as a tool.
Sure.
It's seen, you know, is.
Hunting for food, all these kindof things that a gun provides.
(19:39):
And Grant also agrees to that.
And he asks that the Confederatessign with their pardon, that they
will never take up arms againagainst the Union against America.
And they can keep their horseand they can keep this item.
And that is the terms of surrender.
Scott (19:58):
Yeah.
And if I remember correctly, Imean it was, I mean, Lincoln was.
Pretty adamant about, you know,like the healing nature, right?
Mm-hmm.
And not being super harsh withthese terms of surrender, right?
And not saying like, Hey, no, Iwant these people in Prisoned.
Mm-hmm.
I don't, I want execution.
Like he wasn't going for that.
He wanted to kind ofjust finish this all off.
(20:20):
It sounded like he didn'twant to like create martyrs.
Like he, he, but I thinkyou even mentioned it in the
video, he wanted to create that
Jenn (20:26):
healing.
Yeah.
He.
He didn't wanna try Davis for treason.
He didn't wanna try Lee for treasonthere, there was not gonna be some
kind of big trial and, uh, execution.
Like you said, he didn't wantmartyrs and he also didn't
want animosity from the south.
Yeah, he wanted the south to, I mean,people have been fighting for four years.
(20:46):
People have been dying.
Uh, You know, Lincoln had lost a childduring this whole time and everyone
is just very exhausted, uh, war weary,and he just wanted the south to go back
and be welcomed back into the union.
I, I wouldn't say as effectivecitizens again, but it also is.
(21:12):
You can't have this undergroundanimosity building back up again.
It has to be you're back.
You're our countrymen.
You've, you've paid your price.
You've lost so many people.
There have been entire townswhere every able bodied man
of 18 to 60 had been killed.
(21:32):
Your economy is decimated.
I mean, that's what happens to McLeanis all his money's in the confederacy.
So what, after they do the surrenderin his parlor and they take all
his furniture, sudden he's broke.
He's broke.
Yeah.
So he can't even keep the house heleaves, goes back to Alexandria.
And so in, in a day, everything thatall of these PE men have had and
(21:55):
their families is worth nothing.
And so Lincoln knows it's gonnabe a big rebuilding too, as well.
So he feels like peoplehave paid the price.
Yeah.
Scott (22:05):
And even I, I think that was even recognized there.
And it's immortalized in differentkind of reenactments and videos
that we've seen out there.
What is it?
Gods in Generals is one of
Jenn (22:13):
the Yeah.
Uh, Gettysburg is the big one, butGods in Generals North and the South.
Scott (22:19):
North and the South.
Um, but, but even, even that, so they, oneof the things that they call out both at,
at the National Park and I, I, when I wasmaking the video a couple times in videos,
and they, they, they, they mentionedthat, When they had finished signing the
paperwork, the terms of Surrender, Leekind of, you know, walks back outside,
he gets on his horse and Grant justkind of gives him this like kind of
(22:42):
tip of the hat, like takes his hat off.
Salute.
Like not an official militarysalute, but you know, something
to acknowledge that it's done.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And to, and to show that respect and then
Jenn (22:52):
remember, All the union soldiers start to celebrate.
That's right.
They start frying their gunsin the air and Grant gets mad.
Yeah.
Remember right away Stop has them,stop has them shush, has them be quiet.
Has 'em act respectful.
Yeah.
Because it, it reallyis a time of rebuilding.
Yeah.
G it, it is a time of exhaustion when youthink about it and because again, we talk
(23:16):
about the lines of communication and whatis happening now and how people travel.
We've talked about.
Passes to travel and peoplecarrying paperwork with them.
They go to print out these 30,000 pardons.
Right.
We talk about 67, almost70,000 union soldiers.
We have 30,000 federal soldiers.
Well, now that they've all surrendered,they need these passes of Pardon?
(23:38):
That's right.
To travel back to their homesbecause people are still fighting.
Yeah.
And so the Clover Tavern, which is closeto the Appomattox Courthouse, they put
in a printing press in the downstairsparlor, a big tavern, and they start
printing out these 30,000 pardon passesso they can carry these passes with them.
Well, and that's
Scott (23:57):
also how they get the word out.
That's how, and you mentionedthat in the video, like.
Word.
There's no phones, there's no,you know, nothing like that.
And that's the way they, they getthe word out is, is these people
walking home with this piece of papersaying, yes, the South has essentially
surrendered and is my path to mm-hmm.
Return home, surrender home.
Um, and so that's another waythat the word of the end of the
(24:20):
civil War finally got spread wasas these men were traveling home.
Jenn (24:24):
Yes.
And so you get verysymbolic the day after.
April 10th, you see, um, GrantonLee will meet one last time, uh,
towards the one, the, the, I thinkit's the east end of Appomattox.
And they make a very symbolic show.
All the men of this confederacywill leave their rifles, right?
(24:45):
So they're allowed to keep the side arms,or they leave their rifles and they show
this, um, surrendering of their weapons.
And it's in that moment that peopleare, Really separating, starting
to travel back home, startingto, uh, go back to their lives.
And that's also, people acted veryrespectful of both sides in that moment.
(25:11):
Out on the other side of ApptCourthouse as a Confederate graveyard.
So on the eighth and 9th of April,there was still fighting and there were.
Soldiers who died in the vicinityof Appomattox Courthouse, and they
basically buried them where they fell.
But a year later, in 1866, thesesouthern women decided to dig up these
(25:32):
graves and bury them all together.
And they had found 18confederates in one union soldier.
That's right.
Yes.
And so they put them all in one graveyard.
So when you, when you look atmy video on Instagram, there's
18 confederate flags and one.
Union flag, one Americanflag in this graveyard.
Uh, because they decided tobury them all side by side.
They were able to identify, I think halfof them, the other half are still unknown.
(25:55):
Not actually
Scott (25:55):
in the little Village city area.
It's actually, it'sprobably like half a mile.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe, maybe a mile down,maybe not even a mile.
Um, but you know, you, you drive in,you actually see it on the way in.
Mm-hmm.
And you can come swing by andstop at it on the way out.
It's actually a fairly popularInstagram reel for some reason.
Yeah.
Jenn (26:14):
I think because it's interesting to see confederate flags on graves still.
Yeah.
I think, and there's a marker therethat we also bring attention to.
Scott (26:23):
Yeah, I noticed that.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm the one who brought it
Jenn (26:25):
to your attention.
It's a very, again, we talkabout this lost cause and this.
Southern and I, I wanna talk a littlebit about this cuz I think Appomattox
Courthouse, um, visitor Center does avery good job of telling the story of
why federal soldiers are fighting, whysouthern soldiers are fighting, because
you're gonna get this still today.
(26:46):
These two points of views states right?
Uh, enslavement.
What, what are we fighting?
Who's, what are people fighting for?
What's the cause of the Civil War?
And this marker talks about, um, afterthe Southern soldiers fought bravely
for four years, for their rights oftheir country, uh, Lee surrendered.
(27:09):
And it, it, it really skews the numbers.
Like, oh yeah, it's
Scott (27:12):
9,000 men.
It's definitely, youknow, Old, old Southern
Jenn (27:16):
leaning.
Yes, for sure.
So, and then it looks like they've takenoff the whole bottom line that talks
about Grant and how many men Grant hadthey just kind of like have stripped it.
Yeah.
Scott (27:27):
And it's not like it was weather worn because this
is, this is a metal sign.
These, these, this was intentional.
Somebody like taken off.
Yeah, taken off.
Jenn (27:34):
You could still read it.
It was interesting.
So that's interesting.
I, I think it's importantto keep those markers up.
Sure.
Because I think it'simportant to show how people.
Even still wanted to protect thestory and protect their ideals
and what they were fighting for.
And I think Appomattox does a good job.
They talk about whyfederal soldiers fought.
(27:55):
You got a lot of recentimmigrants who joined the union.
They come to America for a reason.
All these immigrants are coming inthe 1860s because American liberty
and independence and prosperity.
So they think if they fight forthe union, They're gonna be able to
preserve that, what they came for.
Oh, right, okay.
They don't wanna lose that.
(28:16):
Interesting.
And so the whole point of keepingAmerica together is all of
this commerce works together.
All of this American trade andresources, they all work together.
And immigrants who have come here topartake in that, don't want to lose that.
And then they have white Confederatesoldiers fought and they talk about
(28:37):
a crucial motivator for many soldierswas, uh, defense of their homes and
their families against northern armies.
And whether or not they ownedenslaved, they did believe
in, uh, still a hierarchy.
There was still a hierarchy intheir minds, even if they're not
owning enslaved, that there wasa supremacy, uh, based on race.
(28:59):
So, but they, I think, andI think it's true that most.
Southern soldiers are not enslavers.
They don't own enslaved.
Yeah, they weren't, not allof 'em were that rich and, and
they're fighting because theirfamilies are coming under attack.
But we, we do know that enslavementis the cause of the Civil war.
(29:21):
Because, and even though Lincoln, andthey make a point to say this, he did not
advocate for the abolitionist slavery.
So even though Lincoln did notadvocate for that running as president,
he never would've won if Sure.
What is happening ishe's advocating for the.
No spread of enslavement.
So what's going on with the MissouriCompromise in Kansas is they want to
(29:45):
spread enslavement to other statesbecause it's a way to have free labor.
It's a way for commerce to work.
And uh, Lincoln wants to stop thatbecause it does hurt the economy
when you can't pay laborers.
Sure.
And you get all these immigrantscoming to America and they are.
Laborers, right?
(30:05):
And so that's what Lincoln is,stopping the spread of enslavement.
And then it will, and then you'regonna have the southern states who
write their constitutions puttingenslavement as part of their cause.
So it does become more sothe cause of the Civil War.
And then Lincoln will see.
(30:27):
The strength behind that, right.
And the strength behind the EmancipationProclamation and the strength behind
enlisting, uh, uh, black soldiers.
And it really gets fullmomentum during the Civil War.
And I think the, uh, a MadsCourthouse does a very good job of
telling that story because it's.
An honest
Scott (30:46):
story.
Yeah.
It's not, it's it's notleaning one way or the other.
Not leaning one way or the other.
This is how it
Jenn (30:51):
was.
Mm-hmm.
And I then people can really understandwhy you can still, uh, needle in
those kind of beliefs that arestill kind of fought against today.
Right.
Uh, you can still seewhere that comes from.
Scott (31:04):
That's interesting.
Cause I had never.
I had probably heard it rightagain, but not, not being the
person that latched on a history.
Mm-hmm.
As I was going through my youngeryear education, I had never kind of
considered that Lincoln was would onthe economic side of the slavery debate
back then was, Hey, I want these peoplecoming to our country so that they
(31:24):
can earn a living and help build thisnation and this, that and the other.
And that wouldn't happen ifslavery continued to spread.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's Essent, you know.
Enslavement is, is free labor.
Mm-hmm.
You know, quote unquote.
And so that, to your point, that iskind of counteracting, you know, being
able to grow at a true workforce mm-hmm.
(31:47):
Um, for people coming in.
So I, I hadn't really consideredthat, that piece of it.
And obviously that's one.
Aspect Sure.
Of the entire debate.
Sure.
But that was probably the, thegenesis of some of it from the econo
economic side, all of the money.
Mm-hmm.
You, you follow the money.
Mm-hmm.
And then from there, people start diggingin their heels and they're like, well,
we're just gonna write it into ours.
State constitution.
(32:07):
Yep.
Slavery is okay.
And you know, this, that and the other.
Um, so it's.
That's interesting to kindof, I've always heard that.
Mm-hmm.
But that's, that's an interestingway of kind of clarifying that, that
Jenn (32:17):
piece of it.
Yeah, and I, I think Appomattox,that's why I really appreciate
Appomattox Courthouse, is they'rereally preserving, they're not
really pushing one way or the other.
They're showing what actuallyhappened and how those ideas.
Slowly formed and got strongerthroughout the Civil War and I,
that is actually what did happen,and so I really appreciated that.
(32:44):
We talked a little bit about thefurniture in the McLean house.
Yeah, so we visited.
Uh, the National History Museum at theSmithsonian in Washington DC and the
chairs from the surrender are there.
The chair that Lee sat in, the chair,that grant sat in or at the Smithsonian
in DC there's recreation of those chairs.
(33:06):
They look almost identical.
Yep.
In the in app, in the McLean House.
In Appomattox Courthouse.
And the table.
Uh, I think there's a table in Chicagoand there's a table in the actual
Appomattox courthouse, which werethe actual tables that were there.
Now, when the surrender actuallytakes place, you get Custer is
(33:30):
probably the worst of this union.
Soldiers buying furniture or justtaking furniture from the McLean house.
Sure, yeah.
Soldiers being soldiers,they take the chairs.
Custer will take the table and the.
The truce flag.
Yeah, the dish towel that he gets.
And people will take the chairs.
B, buy the chairs, andpretty much McLean's house
(33:51):
has cleaned out a furniture.
Everybody just takes stuff.
That poor guy, so.
So this is also another reason whyhe leaves, because now his house
has been stripped of furniture.
And his money's worth nothing.
And so he goes back toAlexandria to make a living.
The house will go into foreclosure.
We talked about this andthen it gets taken apart.
But, uh, when Custer Custer'skilled at the Battle of the Big
(34:14):
Horn and his wife will go on acampaign to build up his name.
That's why we know Custer so well today.
Cuz his wife really did a good jobof interesting building his interest.
Uh, she will donate the, the flag andthe table back to the Smithsonian.
Upon her death.
So you can see the truthflag in the Smithsonian.
(34:35):
Yep.
Scott (34:36):
And then the, the desk is at, the
Jenn (34:37):
desk is at, uh, appro Appomattox Courthouse.
So if you wanna visit thosethings, that's, we're there.
And we talked about EliParker a little bit.
Yeah.
He was the Seneca Soldier who wasthere, uh, from the American af,
American Indian tribe that was there.
He had a conversation with.
(34:58):
We, yeah.
Scott (34:59):
You liked you,
Jenn (34:59):
you liked that.
I liked it because, uh, it kindof reminds me a little bit of
what the surgeon said with Reagan.
Oh, yeah.
You know, today, sir, we're allrepublicans a as Eli Parker and,
uh, Marshall are, are workingout the terms, the surrender.
They're writing it.
Yeah, they're, they'redescribing it all out.
They're describing it out.
Lee asks, uh, Parker, youknow, if he's American Indian?
He says, yes, I'm of the Seneca tribe.
(35:21):
And he goes, it's good.
It's good to have one true American here.
And he responds to Lisa.
We are all Americans.
And I just loved that.
Scott (35:30):
Yeah.
And, and especially forthat time period as well.
Like, it, it gives you just a littlebit more insight into the mind that
was, you know, general Lee, right?
Like, that's just not a commentthat you would expect in, in,
in that historical setting.
And that's maybe just me beingun uneducated there, but I don't
think that sentiment was common
Jenn (35:50):
back then.
No.
And I don't think so either.
And I think, again, fouryears of fighting really.
Of war weariness.
What are we fighting for?
What are we killing each other for?
I think those kind ofsentiments are coming through.
Scott (36:05):
Yeah, it was, it was a ton of fun.
It's easy for kids too, right?
If you ever wanna bring kids there.
We, I mean, we just kindof cut 'em loose outside.
Um, there's stuff you can see behindthe McLean House and Slaves quarters
kind of showing your classic,that kind of era, the separated
kitchen, separated quarters mm-hmm.
And, and things like that.
Um, but other buildingsto see, you know, the.
(36:25):
The gift shop was great.
Um, they had like, uh, you could goin and see like the prison, right?
You know, where they would, they mm-hmm.
They held, you know, certainfolks behind the courthouse.
Behind the courthouse.
The general store, general storeand all sorts of things to just
kind of walk around and do.
Great afternoon.
There's not much too close to there.
So we actually have another videothat, that I made while we were
there, kind of tips and tricks of,of visiting Appomattox Courthouse.
(36:48):
So be on the lookout for that.
To, to come out on the Walk withHistory YouTube channel soon.
But for those listening, thank youfor listening to the Talk with History
podcasts, and please reach out to usat our website, talk with history.com.
But more importantly, if you knowsomeone else that might enjoy
this podcast, please share it withthem, especially if you think that
today's topic with Anna is a friend.
Shoot 'em a text andtell 'em to look us up.
(37:08):
We rely on you, our community to grow,and we appreciate you all every day.
We'll talk to you next time.
Thank
Jenn (37:14):
you.
Wilber McLean can't seem to get away from the Civil War, right?
Because his home is destroyed.
He lives in the city of Manassas.
Uh, during the first battleof the Civil War, he wants to
move away from the fighting.
So he moves to the town of CloverHill, which becomes the town
of Appomattox Courthouse and.
(00:21):
When the surrender takes place, Marshall,who is Lee's a second right hand man,
um, aid has to find a suitable placefor surrender, and he finds the Wilber
McLean house in Mads Courthouse.
Scott (00:48):
Welcome to Talk With History.
I'm your host Scott here withmy wife and historian Jen.
Hello.
On this podcast, we give you insightsto our history inspired world travels
YouTube channel journey, and examinehistory through deeper conversations
with the curious, the explorers,and the history lovers out there.
Now, before we get into our main topictonight, I do want to ask for reviews on
(01:09):
Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you'relistening, the reviews really do help us.
To help the show grow and we are stillslowly plotting away at chipping away
at that lead with the History channel.
We're coming after you.
I'm not aware of podcasts that theyput on, so maybe, maybe we're ahead
of them on the podcast, right?
Yes.
I'm just, I'm just
Jenn (01:28):
gonna kind of throw, we're gonna have more subscribers
in the History Channel Someday
Scott (01:31):
we will.
Jen, why don't you tell uswhat we're talking about today?
One of our, our videos that we just
Jenn (01:38):
released.
Yeah.
This, uh, video and this podcast is avery important place and moment in time
for any history lever, any adventure,any explorer, because we go to a place
that's a, a bucket list historical
Scott (01:56):
location.
Yeah.
And you lead off the video.
I mean, right off with that.
Hey, bucket list.
Place for any history, fan or historian.
Mm-hmm.
So where were we?
We were at
Jenn (02:06):
Appomattox Courthouse in Virginia.
Scott (02:08):
So we, we were at Appomattox Courthouse.
So if you don't know, or if you,if you're, if you're just joining
us for the first time, uh, we justlive a couple hours away from there.
We live in Virginia and so wehad to get out to Appomattox.
Yes.
And we actually learned a fairamount while we were there.
Like you, you kind of done someresearch before we got out there,
but, um, one of the things.
(02:29):
That a lot of people didn't know waskind of the whole naming convention.
We kind of led off with that.
Jenn (02:33):
Yes, because it's always a confusing thing for any historian when
they talk about the surrender of theCivil War, and we'll go into some of the.
Feedback we've gotten frompeople the, this is the official
surrender of the Civil War.
This is where Lee and Grant will meet.
(02:54):
So you got the commander of theConfederate forces and the commander of
the Union forces are going to meet andactually work out terms of surrender.
There are other people, historianswho will surmise other moments
and battles that were the actual.
Surrendering points or when the thingwhen tides were turned towards surrender.
(03:18):
But this is the actual moment wherethey're gonna meet officially.
And, um, write up terms of surrender.
And so I wanna make that very clear.
Scott (03:27):
Yeah, we, we, we did, and it's common with, with all of our videos,
um, especially the more popular onesthat people always kind of jump in.
And we actually, we had, we hadsome folks kind of teach us, you
know, some, some interesting,interesting facts on different videos.
Like, you know, The namingconvention behind Bull Run
Manasas and things like that?
Yes, yes.
But for Appomattox specifically, uh, wealways, we had a few folks jumping in and
(03:48):
saying, Hey, this wasn't the actual end.
Like there was troops over herefighting like a few weeks later.
And that's
Jenn (03:54):
true because I mean, things aren't, Communication isn't traveling quickly.
Yeah.
Right.
It's not like it's a phone call.
Okay.
War's over.
It doesn't work that way.
It's
Scott (04:02):
the 1860s.
I mean, it takes weeks fora word to get anywhere.
To do anything.
Exactly.
Jenn (04:06):
So yeah, there were people still fighting.
Absolutely.
But this is the official surrender.
What was also interesting is you're gonna,if you're a, you know, moderate historian,
you know the surrender happened inAppomattox Courthouse and it sounds like.
A location, right?
A building.
A building.
And it is a building, but it'salso the name of the town.
(04:29):
And the surrender doesn't takeplace in the actual courthouse
building of Appomattox.
It takes place in them by clean house.
Which is located in the town of Appomattox
Scott (04:41):
Courthouse.
The, the Appomattox Courthouse, theactual building, the courthouse,
that's where the visitor
Jenn (04:48):
center is.
Yes.
And that has a great visitor center.
It's very good.
It's very good.
A lot of information.
They have a, a great movie thereand I think famous actors are in
that movie and it sets the tone.
For where you're at and thebuildup and what happened,
uh, that day in April in 1865.
(05:08):
So it's a, it's very good to getin there and watch that movie.
Plus they have some artifacts in there.
They have the actualsurrender table in there.
So it it, you definitely wanna visit theactual Appomattox Courthouse in Appomattox
Courthouse cuz it is the visitors
Scott (05:23):
center.
Yeah, so it's not, it wasn't the Apax,the actual building, the courthouse
building where the surrender took place.
But again, that, that visitor center andsome of the other things there, like,
they actually probably have one of thebest depictions of what it actually looked
like inside of the McLean house whenthey were sitting down and actually, you
know, signing the, signing the paperwork.
Yes.
Because they, they pointed out, oneof the things that I liked that they
(05:45):
pointed out, they said, Hey, thispainting over here, Is very famous
and a lot of people misconstruethat as what actually happened.
And it's the painting of Grantand Lee where they're almost like
sitting right at the same table.
Yeah.
Right next to each otherin the center of the room.
And that's actually in historically
Jenn (06:02):
inaccurate.
It's inaccurate.
And also you have George Custer therewho, who, he wasn't there in the room.
Uh, George Custer is pinnacle to.
The whole surrender in general, cuzhe's the first person to actually
get the surrender flag or dishtowel they use for the surrender.
But he's not in the roomwhen the official surrender
documents are written out inside.
(06:22):
He's outside, uh, with his men,so, They have him there, I think
is to pay some, to pay homage tohim in his part in the surrender.
But he wasn't in the room.
Yeah.
Scott (06:32):
So from there, we, we were in the actual courthouse itself,
which was a visitor center.
So we were chit-chatting andthis, that and the other.
And all of a sudden when we werethere, we hear this announcement,
you know, the the, the McLean house.
If you wanna see the McLean house, it willbe closing in like, It's like 10 minutes.
10 minutes.
It's 15 minutes.
Yeah.
You, you have 15 minutes and it'sclosing for the next 90 minutes.
(06:53):
And we're like, oh mygosh, what's going on?
We had just gotten there, so we ranover it kind of made our way up.
Mm-hmm.
And we didn't want to ha like, haveto wait to go to the one building
that we actually went to go see for90 minutes because they were, you
know, the people, they were working.
They were, they had to take a lunch
Jenn (07:07):
break.
So we've talked about will.
Mer McLean before, right?
We've talked about him on two separatelo uh, occasions with Walk with History.
We have visited his grave in theAlexandria Cemetery, and we had visited
kind of the area where his home wasin the first Battle of Bull Run,
the first battle of the Civil War.
(07:29):
He is also a historic characterof the Civil War because.
Wilber McLean can't seem to getaway from the Civil War, right?
Because his home is destroyed.
He lives in the city of Manasas.
Uh, during the first battleof the Civil War, he wants to
move away from the fighting.
So he moves to the town of CloverHill, which becomes the town
(07:52):
of Appomattox Courthouse and.
When the surrender takes place,Marshall, who is Lee's a second
right hand man, um, aid has to finda suitable place for surrender.
And he finds the Wilber McLeanhouse in Mads courthouse and the the
(08:13):
surrender takes place in the parlor.
So Wilbur McClean cannotget away from the Civil War.
Yeah, it begins and ends.
Uh, where he lives.
And,
Scott (08:21):
and that's, and it's funny, I've mentioned it a couple
times throughout this podcastand videos and things like that.
I love the random little historiccharacters that just pop up and are
well known for some one random thing.
And Will McClean is one of those I.
And so that just kind of made me smilebecause now we've kind of visited
where, you know, where the Civil Warstarted, where the Civil War ended,
(08:44):
and where Wilman McClean, who wasat both of those locations for both
times where he's actually buried.
Jenn (08:51):
So it's interesting that the town is called Appomattox Courthouse, and we
talk a little bit about that in the video.
Clover Hill, that town is about a hundredpeople, and it's a farming community,
so half of the people are enslavedbecause when you have farming in the
south, your laborers are enslaved.
So half of the town is enslaved.
(09:13):
It is along the Lynchburg Stagecoachline, and they decided to build a
courthouse there for government,for governing, so people in the
county can come and do their.
Ju ju judicial business.
When a courthouse is established,they start to call that area where the
(09:35):
courthouse is along the stage line.
They name it after the courthouse.
So even though it's the town of CloverHill and you Hill Clover Hill Tavern,
Uh, and that is the location wherethey print all the pardon slips.
After the surrender, it officially becomesthe town of Appomattox Courthouse after
the courthouse is established there.
And that is why.
(09:57):
When people say the surrender happenedin Appomattox Courthouse, you're like,
yes, the town of Appomattox Courthouse.
Wilber McClean's house, which isn'tvery far from Appomattox Courthouse.
So when they said you have 90minutes, you can just go out the
front door and it's a straight shot.
Yes.
Maybe 30 yards and it'sright there to the left.
Now what's interesting aboutthat home, it's built in 1848,
(10:19):
it, it has a tavern type.
Style to it if you've been to other,uh, colonial Tavern type homes.
But it was in the 1890s.
It was completely taken apart and theyhad finances who had come in, come
in and wanted to move it, and theywere gonna move it to Washington, DC.
(10:42):
Uh, and make it a museum so people couldgo in and visit and see where the official
surrender of the Civil War took place.
So they took it apart, they tookplans of it all, and it, and it
sat there and the financing fellthrough to actually move it.
So it sat as bricks and wood forabout 50 years and people would come
and take souvenirs and take a breakhere, take a piece of wood here.
(11:03):
And the, uh, national Park Servicebought it, uh, in 1939 and.
Rebuilt it to the specifications thatthey had, but the civil, the, uh,
world War II breaks out so it, theydon't have the financing right away.
So it takes about 10 years to rebuild it.
It opens to the public in 1949.
(11:24):
That's right.
But it is in the same location.
It is built to the specifications.
They have gotten furniture in thereto replicate what it looked like,
because we will talk about this.
The actual furnitureis in other locations.
But you get the sense of what that lookedlike that day, what Lee felt, what grant
felt as they're walking up the stepsand the people and the surrounding area.
(11:46):
So it is still very historicallyrelevant and they did use the same
materials that were left behind.
So it is a very historic place
Scott (11:55):
to visit.
Yeah.
And, and the house itself, I mean, evenfor the time, it must have been pretty
big cuz it, it's a decent sized house.
Even by, by today'sstandards when you think of a
Jenn (12:03):
tavern.
Yeah.
Having to entertain and feed a.
People who come to visit, it doeshave that kind of feel to it, so
Scott (12:11):
and so it makes sense that that's where they would pick.
Mm-hmm.
Because it had the space.
Right.
Even the room, you know, the, asyou kind of joke, the room where
it happened, um, you go in thereand, and it's a decent sized room.
You could see there was probably,what, 10 ish men in there?
Something like that.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's 12 men.
Mm-hmm.
And.
So, so it's, it's a decent sizedhouse, very picturesque, right.
(12:34):
With the courthouse on one end.
And then, you know, the, the parking lotwhere we drove up and parked on the other,
and then there's the McLean house andthere's other little, you know, the timing
when we went, you know, what was that,
Jenn (12:44):
April, early May.
The end of April.
So I bet it's very busy the beginning ofApril since that's the timeframe Oh sure.
Of when the surrender takes place.
Uh, April 9th.
1865, but we got there the end ofApril, which was perfect weather.
Oh it was.
And not
Scott (12:59):
very crowded.
It was, it was gorgeous.
If you're ever gonna go visitthat, the springtime is, is
fantastic cuz it was, everythingwas green, everything was in bloom.
Um, some of the bugs were outa little bit for, for us that
day, but it wasn't too bad.
Uh, not a lot of it wasn't very crowded.
And they have tons and tonsof signs and historic markers.
You can literally justkind of meander around.
(13:20):
Yes.
This small town, I meannow a national park.
And just kind of read everything all
Jenn (13:25):
along the way.
There's actually a hike you cando because Lee's headquarters and
Grant's headquarters are pretty spacedopposite each other in the area, and
you can actually hike from one to theother and it kind of goes through the
town of Appomattox Courthouse and.
You see people out there hiking andwalking and things like that, and
we visited other locations close.
(13:47):
Like we'll talk about theConfederate Cemetery we saw and
other kind of markers we saw.
But it is a really great locationif you wanna spend the day.
Uh, they have picnic tables andlike, if you wanna spend the day
with your family, it's a reallygreat place to kind of walk around.
It kind of reminds me of FirstBattle Bull run a little bit, maybe
a very, very, very smaller scale.
(14:08):
Gettysburg.
Type thing.
Sure.
But it's not really a drivabletrail like Yorktown or Gettysburg.
It's much more of a walking, butit is pretty much like a day trip.
Scott (14:22):
And I, I loved being out on the, the front steps of the McLean
house because you really could, and youdo a good job of kind of describing,
like imagine, you know, Being here.
Mm-hmm.
And Lee, you know, comes up to theMcLean house in his nice, clean uniform,
pressed, you know, all this stuff.
He gets there first.
He's hanging out for,for 30 minutes or so.
30 minutes, so, mm-hmm.
(14:42):
And then up, up comes Grant, just dirty.
He'd been riding mud.
Mud.
You can barely tell he's a general otherthan buying the jacket that he's wearing.
And you can picture both in this setting.
It's, it's one of those locations.
It's really, really neat.
And you can kind of really feel.
What it was.
What must have been like back then.
Yeah.
And I also imagine back then, becauseyou go on to say, to talk about how there
(15:06):
was, what's like 90,000 troops in area?
90,000
Jenn (15:09):
troops.
So you think 70, about 70,000 uniontroops, about 30,000 confederates.
And they're.
Camping out.
I mean, they're notstaying in the homes there.
They're put, they're intheir makeshift tents.
So when you look at all the greeneryin the area, you can imagine these
troops are camped out everywhere.
So it's very much a busy.
(15:30):
Hustle and bustle, and everyone'skind of watching for what's
happening in this house.
So what leads up to this, you'regonna get Richmond Falls on April
3rd, and Lee is leaving Richmond.
Richmond has fallen to the north and he'strying to make it west, and he's trying
to make it west to meet up with thearmies of North Carolina and Tennessee.
(15:51):
And so the union is trying tocut him off before he gets there.
So if you think of Appomattox askind of west to Richmond, Appomattox,
as I said, is on the stage line.
It's also on the railroad line.
And so Custer gets out there first on,uh, April 7th, and he's able to stop
these railroad cars that are bringingsupplies to the south and he burns them.
(16:14):
And that's when Leestarts to realize that.
He, he's not gonna beable to meet his men.
They're trying to cut him off.
And so Grant will send him anote on the seventh saying,
would you like to surrender?
And Lee is like, not yet, butwhat would that look like?
It's like, not yet, but what,what, what do you have in mind?
Um, so they're kind of negotiating this.
(16:34):
Lee still thinks maybe there'ssomething that he can do.
Maybe he can make it in time, but Custerand Sherman will actually completely.
Uh, cut off the Army at Appomattox andthere's no way that they can rejoin.
And so they do fight a little bit.
You get some fighting on the eighthand ninth, but it's Lee who decides,
(16:55):
uh, even though he says he ratherdie a thousand deaths, it's Lee who
decides to send the word to Grant.
Uh, they bring out, you know, they,they, they have the dish towel
they give to Custer cuz that's whothe actual fighting forces, uh,
long Street and Custer will meet.
Custer will stop fighting.
He will go through the linewith the towel and they'll like,
(17:16):
let's negotiate, surrender.
They'll get the no to Lee.
Ask Lee to find a location.
They find the McLean house grantwill have to ride at like 30
miles, which is crazy to meet him.
That's why he's so dirty.
And Lee gets there at one.
Grant will get thereat one 30 on April 9th.
Lee has been thinking about this.
(17:37):
Of course, he looks very clean,very pressed in his uniform.
Grants has also been thinkingabout this, but he's exhausted.
He's just hopping off his horse and mudcovered and when they've meet, they're
almost like in awe of each other.
They both study at West Point.
They both are skilled men.
(17:57):
Lee has been the commanderof the Confederate forces for
all four years, five years.
Grant has not.
But Grant has proven himself as a fighterand Grant stands so in awe of Lee.
He doesn't even know what totalk about when he comes in.
Yeah.
He's like trying to make
Scott (18:14):
chit
Jenn (18:14):
chat, chit chats about their, both their military experience in
the, in the Spanish American War.
Let's talk about in the MexicanAmerican world, let's talk
about what we are doing then.
And Lee's like, okay, um,let's talk about surrender.
So when they sit down to hash outterms of surrender, Like I said,
Lee will have one person with him.
Marshall will be with him.
(18:34):
Grant will have an entourage.
He has um, Sheridan.
He has, uh, Robert ToddLincoln is with him.
He has Eli Parker, who is of theSeneca American Indian tribe is with
him, and Eli Parker is the one who'sactually the scribe and the terms
that Lee is asking for, I think.
(18:55):
Are pretty reasonable.
And I think that's whyGrant grants them to him.
He asks, most of his men are farmersfrom the south and they will be
going back to their farms and alot of them own their own horses.
And the horses will be, Veryvaluable and important to farming.
Sure.
Right.
To putting in seeds and all thethings that you need on a farm.
(19:17):
And so he asks as if their men own ahorse, can they take the horse with them?
And Grant says that's that's fine.
And he also says, because they'refarmers and because they're traveling,
can they keep their side arms again,a gun at the time is seen as a tool.
Sure.
It's seen, you know, is.
Hunting for food, all these kindof things that a gun provides.
(19:39):
And Grant also agrees to that.
And he asks that the Confederatessign with their pardon, that they
will never take up arms againagainst the Union against America.
And they can keep their horseand they can keep this item.
And that is the terms of surrender.
Scott (19:58):
Yeah.
And if I remember correctly, Imean it was, I mean, Lincoln was.
Pretty adamant about, you know,like the healing nature, right?
Mm-hmm.
And not being super harsh withthese terms of surrender, right?
And not saying like, Hey, no, Iwant these people in Prisoned.
Mm-hmm.
I don't, I want execution.
Like he wasn't going for that.
He wanted to kind ofjust finish this all off.
(20:20):
It sounded like he didn'twant to like create martyrs.
Like he, he, but I thinkyou even mentioned it in the
video, he wanted to create that
Jenn (20:26):
healing.
Yeah.
He.
He didn't wanna try Davis for treason.
He didn't wanna try Lee for treasonthere, there was not gonna be some
kind of big trial and, uh, execution.
Like you said, he didn't wantmartyrs and he also didn't
want animosity from the south.
Yeah, he wanted the south to, I mean,people have been fighting for four years.
(20:46):
People have been dying.
Uh, You know, Lincoln had lost a childduring this whole time and everyone
is just very exhausted, uh, war weary,and he just wanted the south to go back
and be welcomed back into the union.
I, I wouldn't say as effectivecitizens again, but it also is.
(21:12):
You can't have this undergroundanimosity building back up again.
It has to be you're back.
You're our countrymen.
You've, you've paid your price.
You've lost so many people.
There have been entire townswhere every able bodied man
of 18 to 60 had been killed.
(21:32):
Your economy is decimated.
I mean, that's what happens to McLeanis all his money's in the confederacy.
So what, after they do the surrenderin his parlor and they take all
his furniture, sudden he's broke.
He's broke.
Yeah.
So he can't even keep the house heleaves, goes back to Alexandria.
And so in, in a day, everything thatall of these PE men have had and
(21:55):
their families is worth nothing.
And so Lincoln knows it's gonnabe a big rebuilding too, as well.
So he feels like peoplehave paid the price.
Yeah.
Scott (22:05):
And even I, I think that was even recognized there.
And it's immortalized in differentkind of reenactments and videos
that we've seen out there.
What is it?
Gods in Generals is one of
Jenn (22:13):
the Yeah.
Uh, Gettysburg is the big one, butGods in Generals North and the South.
Scott (22:19):
North and the South.
Um, but, but even, even that, so they, oneof the things that they call out both at,
at the National Park and I, I, when I wasmaking the video a couple times in videos,
and they, they, they, they mentionedthat, When they had finished signing the
paperwork, the terms of Surrender, Leekind of, you know, walks back outside,
he gets on his horse and Grant justkind of gives him this like kind of
(22:42):
tip of the hat, like takes his hat off.
Salute.
Like not an official militarysalute, but you know, something
to acknowledge that it's done.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And to, and to show that respect and then
Jenn (22:52):
remember, All the union soldiers start to celebrate.
That's right.
They start frying their gunsin the air and Grant gets mad.
Yeah.
Remember right away Stop has them,stop has them shush, has them be quiet.
Has 'em act respectful.
Yeah.
Because it, it reallyis a time of rebuilding.
Yeah.
G it, it is a time of exhaustion when youthink about it and because again, we talk
(23:16):
about the lines of communication and whatis happening now and how people travel.
We've talked about.
Passes to travel and peoplecarrying paperwork with them.
They go to print out these 30,000 pardons.
Right.
We talk about 67, almost70,000 union soldiers.
We have 30,000 federal soldiers.
Well, now that they've all surrendered,they need these passes of Pardon?
(23:38):
That's right.
To travel back to their homesbecause people are still fighting.
Yeah.
And so the Clover Tavern, which is closeto the Appomattox Courthouse, they put
in a printing press in the downstairsparlor, a big tavern, and they start
printing out these 30,000 pardon passesso they can carry these passes with them.
Well, and that's
Scott (23:57):
also how they get the word out.
That's how, and you mentionedthat in the video, like.
Word.
There's no phones, there's no,you know, nothing like that.
And that's the way they, they getthe word out is, is these people
walking home with this piece of papersaying, yes, the South has essentially
surrendered and is my path to mm-hmm.
Return home, surrender home.
Um, and so that's another waythat the word of the end of the
(24:20):
civil War finally got spread wasas these men were traveling home.
Jenn (24:24):
Yes.
And so you get verysymbolic the day after.
April 10th, you see, um, GrantonLee will meet one last time, uh,
towards the one, the, the, I thinkit's the east end of Appomattox.
And they make a very symbolic show.
All the men of this confederacywill leave their rifles, right?
(24:45):
So they're allowed to keep the side arms,or they leave their rifles and they show
this, um, surrendering of their weapons.
And it's in that moment that peopleare, Really separating, starting
to travel back home, startingto, uh, go back to their lives.
And that's also, people acted veryrespectful of both sides in that moment.
(25:11):
Out on the other side of ApptCourthouse as a Confederate graveyard.
So on the eighth and 9th of April,there was still fighting and there were.
Soldiers who died in the vicinityof Appomattox Courthouse, and they
basically buried them where they fell.
But a year later, in 1866, thesesouthern women decided to dig up these
(25:32):
graves and bury them all together.
And they had found 18confederates in one union soldier.
That's right.
Yes.
And so they put them all in one graveyard.
So when you, when you look atmy video on Instagram, there's
18 confederate flags and one.
Union flag, one Americanflag in this graveyard.
Uh, because they decided tobury them all side by side.
They were able to identify, I think halfof them, the other half are still unknown.
(25:55):
Not actually
Scott (25:55):
in the little Village city area.
It's actually, it'sprobably like half a mile.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe, maybe a mile down,maybe not even a mile.
Um, but you know, you, you drive in,you actually see it on the way in.
Mm-hmm.
And you can come swing by andstop at it on the way out.
It's actually a fairly popularInstagram reel for some reason.
Yeah.
Jenn (26:14):
I think because it's interesting to see confederate flags on graves still.
Yeah.
I think, and there's a marker therethat we also bring attention to.
Scott (26:23):
Yeah, I noticed that.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm the one who brought it
Jenn (26:25):
to your attention.
It's a very, again, we talkabout this lost cause and this.
Southern and I, I wanna talk a littlebit about this cuz I think Appomattox
Courthouse, um, visitor Center does avery good job of telling the story of
why federal soldiers are fighting, whysouthern soldiers are fighting, because
you're gonna get this still today.
(26:46):
These two points of views states right?
Uh, enslavement.
What, what are we fighting?
Who's, what are people fighting for?
What's the cause of the Civil War?
And this marker talks about, um, afterthe Southern soldiers fought bravely
for four years, for their rights oftheir country, uh, Lee surrendered.
(27:09):
And it, it, it really skews the numbers.
Like, oh yeah, it's
Scott (27:12):
9,000 men.
It's definitely, youknow, Old, old Southern
Jenn (27:16):
leaning.
Yes, for sure.
So, and then it looks like they've takenoff the whole bottom line that talks
about Grant and how many men Grant hadthey just kind of like have stripped it.
Yeah.
Scott (27:27):
And it's not like it was weather worn because this
is, this is a metal sign.
These, these, this was intentional.
Somebody like taken off.
Yeah, taken off.
Jenn (27:34):
You could still read it.
It was interesting.
So that's interesting.
I, I think it's importantto keep those markers up.
Sure.
Because I think it'simportant to show how people.
Even still wanted to protect thestory and protect their ideals
and what they were fighting for.
And I think Appomattox does a good job.
They talk about whyfederal soldiers fought.
(27:55):
You got a lot of recentimmigrants who joined the union.
They come to America for a reason.
All these immigrants are coming inthe 1860s because American liberty
and independence and prosperity.
So they think if they fight forthe union, They're gonna be able to
preserve that, what they came for.
Oh, right, okay.
They don't wanna lose that.
(28:16):
Interesting.
And so the whole point of keepingAmerica together is all of
this commerce works together.
All of this American trade andresources, they all work together.
And immigrants who have come here topartake in that, don't want to lose that.
And then they have white Confederatesoldiers fought and they talk about
(28:37):
a crucial motivator for many soldierswas, uh, defense of their homes and
their families against northern armies.
And whether or not they ownedenslaved, they did believe
in, uh, still a hierarchy.
There was still a hierarchy intheir minds, even if they're not
owning enslaved, that there wasa supremacy, uh, based on race.
(28:59):
So, but they, I think, andI think it's true that most.
Southern soldiers are not enslavers.
They don't own enslaved.
Yeah, they weren't, not allof 'em were that rich and, and
they're fighting because theirfamilies are coming under attack.
But we, we do know that enslavementis the cause of the Civil war.
(29:21):
Because, and even though Lincoln, andthey make a point to say this, he did not
advocate for the abolitionist slavery.
So even though Lincoln did notadvocate for that running as president,
he never would've won if Sure.
What is happening ishe's advocating for the.
No spread of enslavement.
So what's going on with the MissouriCompromise in Kansas is they want to
(29:45):
spread enslavement to other statesbecause it's a way to have free labor.
It's a way for commerce to work.
And uh, Lincoln wants to stop thatbecause it does hurt the economy
when you can't pay laborers.
Sure.
And you get all these immigrantscoming to America and they are.
Laborers, right?
(30:05):
And so that's what Lincoln is,stopping the spread of enslavement.
And then it will, and then you'regonna have the southern states who
write their constitutions puttingenslavement as part of their cause.
So it does become more sothe cause of the Civil War.
And then Lincoln will see.
(30:27):
The strength behind that, right.
And the strength behind the EmancipationProclamation and the strength behind
enlisting, uh, uh, black soldiers.
And it really gets fullmomentum during the Civil War.
And I think the, uh, a MadsCourthouse does a very good job of
telling that story because it's.
An honest
Scott (30:46):
story.
Yeah.
It's not, it's it's notleaning one way or the other.
Not leaning one way or the other.
This is how it
Jenn (30:51):
was.
Mm-hmm.
And I then people can really understandwhy you can still, uh, needle in
those kind of beliefs that arestill kind of fought against today.
Right.
Uh, you can still seewhere that comes from.
Scott (31:04):
That's interesting.
Cause I had never.
I had probably heard it rightagain, but not, not being the
person that latched on a history.
Mm-hmm.
As I was going through my youngeryear education, I had never kind of
considered that Lincoln was would onthe economic side of the slavery debate
back then was, Hey, I want these peoplecoming to our country so that they
(31:24):
can earn a living and help build thisnation and this, that and the other.
And that wouldn't happen ifslavery continued to spread.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's Essent, you know.
Enslavement is, is free labor.
Mm-hmm.
You know, quote unquote.
And so that, to your point, that iskind of counteracting, you know, being
able to grow at a true workforce mm-hmm.
(31:47):
Um, for people coming in.
So I, I hadn't really consideredthat, that piece of it.
And obviously that's one.
Aspect Sure.
Of the entire debate.
Sure.
But that was probably the, thegenesis of some of it from the econo
economic side, all of the money.
Mm-hmm.
You, you follow the money.
Mm-hmm.
And then from there, people start diggingin their heels and they're like, well,
we're just gonna write it into ours.
State constitution.
(32:07):
Yep.
Slavery is okay.
And you know, this, that and the other.
Um, so it's.
That's interesting to kindof, I've always heard that.
Mm-hmm.
But that's, that's an interestingway of kind of clarifying that, that
Jenn (32:17):
piece of it.
Yeah, and I, I think Appomattox,that's why I really appreciate
Appomattox Courthouse, is they'rereally preserving, they're not
really pushing one way or the other.
They're showing what actuallyhappened and how those ideas.
Slowly formed and got strongerthroughout the Civil War and I,
that is actually what did happen,and so I really appreciated that.
(32:44):
We talked a little bit about thefurniture in the McLean house.
Yeah, so we visited.
Uh, the National History Museum at theSmithsonian in Washington DC and the
chairs from the surrender are there.
The chair that Lee sat in, the chair,that grant sat in or at the Smithsonian
in DC there's recreation of those chairs.
(33:06):
They look almost identical.
Yep.
In the in app, in the McLean House.
In Appomattox Courthouse.
And the table.
Uh, I think there's a table in Chicagoand there's a table in the actual
Appomattox courthouse, which werethe actual tables that were there.
Now, when the surrender actuallytakes place, you get Custer is
(33:30):
probably the worst of this union.
Soldiers buying furniture or justtaking furniture from the McLean house.
Sure, yeah.
Soldiers being soldiers,they take the chairs.
Custer will take the table and the.
The truce flag.
Yeah, the dish towel that he gets.
And people will take the chairs.
B, buy the chairs, andpretty much McLean's house
(33:51):
has cleaned out a furniture.
Everybody just takes stuff.
That poor guy, so.
So this is also another reason whyhe leaves, because now his house
has been stripped of furniture.
And his money's worth nothing.
And so he goes back toAlexandria to make a living.
The house will go into foreclosure.
We talked about this andthen it gets taken apart.
But, uh, when Custer Custer'skilled at the Battle of the Big
(34:14):
Horn and his wife will go on acampaign to build up his name.
That's why we know Custer so well today.
Cuz his wife really did a good jobof interesting building his interest.
Uh, she will donate the, the flag andthe table back to the Smithsonian.
Upon her death.
So you can see the truthflag in the Smithsonian.
(34:35):
Yep.
Scott (34:36):
And then the, the desk is at, the
Jenn (34:37):
desk is at, uh, appro Appomattox Courthouse.
So if you wanna visit thosethings, that's, we're there.
And we talked about EliParker a little bit.
Yeah.
He was the Seneca Soldier who wasthere, uh, from the American af,
American Indian tribe that was there.
He had a conversation with.
(34:58):
We, yeah.
Scott (34:59):
You liked you,
Jenn (34:59):
you liked that.
I liked it because, uh, it kindof reminds me a little bit of
what the surgeon said with Reagan.
Oh, yeah.
You know, today, sir, we're allrepublicans a as Eli Parker and,
uh, Marshall are, are workingout the terms, the surrender.
They're writing it.
Yeah, they're, they'redescribing it all out.
They're describing it out.
Lee asks, uh, Parker, youknow, if he's American Indian?
He says, yes, I'm of the Seneca tribe.
(35:21):
And he goes, it's good.
It's good to have one true American here.
And he responds to Lisa.
We are all Americans.
And I just loved that.
Scott (35:30):
Yeah.
And, and especially forthat time period as well.
Like, it, it gives you just a littlebit more insight into the mind that
was, you know, general Lee, right?
Like, that's just not a commentthat you would expect in, in,
in that historical setting.
And that's maybe just me beingun uneducated there, but I don't
think that sentiment was common
Jenn (35:50):
back then.
No.
And I don't think so either.
And I think, again, fouryears of fighting really.
Of war weariness.
What are we fighting for?
What are we killing each other for?
I think those kind ofsentiments are coming through.
Scott (36:05):
Yeah, it was, it was a ton of fun.
It's easy for kids too, right?
If you ever wanna bring kids there.
We, I mean, we just kindof cut 'em loose outside.
Um, there's stuff you can see behindthe McLean House and Slaves quarters
kind of showing your classic,that kind of era, the separated
kitchen, separated quarters mm-hmm.
And, and things like that.
Um, but other buildingsto see, you know, the.
(36:25):
The gift shop was great.
Um, they had like, uh, you could goin and see like the prison, right?
You know, where they would, they mm-hmm.
They held, you know, certainfolks behind the courthouse.
Behind the courthouse.
The general store, general storeand all sorts of things to just
kind of walk around and do.
Great afternoon.
There's not much too close to there.
So we actually have another videothat, that I made while we were
there, kind of tips and tricks of,of visiting Appomattox Courthouse.
(36:48):
So be on the lookout for that.
To, to come out on the Walk withHistory YouTube channel soon.
But for those listening, thank youfor listening to the Talk with History
podcasts, and please reach out to usat our website, talk with history.com.
But more importantly, if you knowsomeone else that might enjoy
this podcast, please share it withthem, especially if you think that
today's topic with Anna is a friend.
Shoot 'em a text andtell 'em to look us up.
(37:08):
We rely on you, our community to grow,and we appreciate you all every day.
We'll talk to you next time.
Thank
Jenn (37:14):
you.
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