November 6, 2023 • 34 mins
🎙️
John Wayne, also known as "The Duke," was an iconic figure in American cinema. He was born in Winterset, Iowa, and later moved to California where he pursued a career in movies. Throughout his life, John Wayne was known for being a family man and had three marriages and seven children.
The themes that embodied John Wayne's life and career include:
1. Family: John Wayne prioritized his family and enjoyed spending time with them. He had a strong bond with his children and was often seen engaging in family activities, such as celebrating holidays together.
2. American Icon: John Wayne's portrayal of rugged western heroes made him a symbol of American masculinity. He embodied the qualities of bravery, strength, and patriotism that resonated with audiences. His movies celebrated the spirit of the American West and its values.
3. Legacy: John Wayne's impact on the film industry was significant. He was a prolific actor and one of Hollywood's most successful stars. His movies, such as "The Searchers" and "True Grit," remain popular to this day. Additionally, John Wayne's nickname, "The Duke," became synonymous with his tough and confident on-screen persona.
4. Controversy: We also acknowledge that John Wayne's personal views, expressed in a Playboy interview, were controversial. His comments about support for the Vietnam War and other topics have sparked debate and criticism. However, we attempt to provide context and understanding that individuals can evolve and learn from past beliefs.
In summary, we explore the life and career of John Wayne, highlighting his commitment to family, his status as an American icon, his enduring legacy, and the controversy surrounding his personal views.
🚕 Google Map to John Wayne Birthplace Museum (Winterset, IA)
🎥 John Wayne Birthplace (house)
-------------------------------------------------------
⬇️ Help us keep the show going and explore history with us! ⬇️
☕️ Say thanks with a cup of coffee 😁
🧳 Get free travel resources in your inbox.
-------------------------------------------------------
📧 contact: talkwithhistory@gmail.com
Talk with History is a global Top 50 History podcast on Feedspot!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott (00:00):
I was thinking.
Jenn (00:01):
It's dangerous.
Scott (00:02):
It's dangerous.
Have I fall I don't know.
Because I know more about historythan at least all the topics
that we've than your average
Jenn (00:21):
History nerd husband.
Scott (00:24):
adjacent?
So would I be, like, history...
history nerd friendly?
Like, what, what, what,like, what category
Jenn (00:31):
Well, it's not like it's almost like you're
Scott (00:33):
I'm trying to claim.
it?
Yeah, I married into
Jenn (00:35):
You married into
Scott (00:36):
married into
Jenn (00:37):
So what's that called?
Scott (00:38):
nerddom.
I don't know.
I was, I was wondering that because,I mean, that's what we're doing.
That's second career for me, for you.
It's going to be, it's going to be history
Jenn (00:50):
History nerd in law?
Scott (00:52):
History of law.
I don't know.
For those listening I don'tknow if you guys ever have a
good thought reach out to me,
Welcome to Talk With I'm your host, Scott,here with my wife and historian, Jen.
Jenn (01:13):
podcast, we give
Scott (01:14):
On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired world
travels, YouTube channel journey,and examine history through deeper
conversations with the curious, Beforewe jump into the episode, I do want to
ask for it's the best way, it's one ofthe best And it's kind of social proof
(01:37):
for the podcast as people stumble across.
If you're listening on Apple podcastsand most people do, those reviews
really do help even if you just go inreal quick, drop us five stars and say,
Hey, Love history, love the show, orlove this episode, or whatever it is.
It really is kind of social proof aspeople stumble across the podcast and
they go in there and search for it.
And I don't think the History Channeldoes a lot of John Wayne topics,
Jenn (02:00):
Um, and I don't think they
Scott (02:01):
history period, so we're coming for you History Channel.
I haven't said that in a while.
But History Channel, youbetter watch out, because
Jenn (02:10):
It's
Scott (02:11):
this stuff, that you and
Jenn (02:14):
common for you, Jen's Gaines of history.
Scott (02:22):
Today, we are embarking on a journey to explore the life and legacy
of one of America's most iconic figures,the legendary John We're taking you on
an adventure to Winterset, Iowa, wherewe visited the very house where Marian
Morrison, the man who would later becomeJohn Wayne, entered this It's more than
(02:43):
just a house, it's a window into theearly years of a Hollywood We're going
to unravel the story of John Wayne's lifefrom his humble beginnings in Winterset
to his transformation into the Dukeand the enduring legacy he left on the
silver We'll delve deep into the rootsof this cinematic legend and explore
his later family life and how his ownkids ventured into So whether you're
(03:07):
a fan of Westerns, a history buff, orjust someone curious about the life
of a true American icon, this episodepromises to be a journey through time
and cinema you won't want to miss.
Without further ado, let's step backin time and experience the life and
times of John Wayne as we visit hisbirthplace home in Winterset, Iowa.
(03:30):
So Jen, this was, again, at the tail endof our western road trip, and this was
a, a huge kind of thing for you to do.
This was, this is the one thingwe did in Iowa as we were driving.
So let's talk a little bit about Wintersetand then the birthplace of this cinematic
Jenn (03:48):
Yeah, so you know, pretty much the start of Walk With History, I did a
lot of John Wayne research and this wasalways a bucket list place for me to go
because I grew up on John Wayne movies.
So I always wanted to see the JohnWayne Museum and the John Wayne House.
Scott (04:09):
This was always wanted to see the John Wayne Museum
and the John Wayne House.
John Wayne Americana and,and history Americana.
And that was literally one ofthe things that inspired you
to, to, to start the channel.
Jenn (04:26):
Yes,
because people were showingsome things on YouTube, but they
weren't really connecting it.
Like, why does this matter?
Or why, how does this impact us today?
How does John Wayne impact us today?
What is he left?
What is his legacy?
What is his Americana legacy?
What did we, you know?
We think a lot about the West becauseof John Wayne, he is the, the Western
(04:50):
actor of the time, like I said, highestgrossing film actor for three decades.
He presents us with the window intoa lot of these different stories.
and brings them to life for us.
And you just think of John Wayne.
He is a movie star.
And you think of him with theswagger, with the star, with the
(05:12):
gun, you know, in, in a shootout.
Like this is, you picture John Wayne asthis man who is part of building America.
Now he didn't build it per se asthe Westerners really did, but
he's going to personify it andshow it on the silver screen.
Scott (05:29):
I just thought that was so neat that you, you called that out that
we were standing in the birthplaceof the person inspired us to, to be
there and to be filming to begin with.
So I, I just thought that was really neat.
And we talked briefly about last week'sepisode, was more about his movie career.
We're going to focus more on familylife about kind of where set being off
(05:49):
kind of in the middle of Iowa off thebeaten path a little bit easy to find.
The, the movie museum is great,and if you guys are curious about
that, I'd encourage you to listento the episode just before this.
We talk about kind of more his moviecareer and the museum itself, but we're
going to focus more on his personal
Jenn (06:10):
Sure.
So the house is kind ofconnected with the museum.
If you want to visit the museum.
And then go to the house,it's right next door.
And his house is at 220 South2nd Street in Winterset, Iowa.
And he was born there May 26th, 1907.
And it really hasn'tchanged a lot since then.
It's a four bedroom house, orfour bedroom, four room house.
(06:33):
One bedroom, one bedroom, one kitchen,one dining room, one living room.
That's it.
And so in the local newspaperreported four days after his birth
that he weighed 13 pounds at birth.
And so when we're in that house and Ishow you the room where he was born,
I just comment on a 13 pound baby.
(06:56):
I just can't even imagine amountof emotions that might have been
coming out of that room at the time.
Scott (07:02):
were there's a lot of screaming going on in this
room and it's cool because theyactually had the newspaper from
Jenn (07:08):
And So
Scott (07:09):
You know that one of the things that I noticed in the announcement
of was just below that was an articleabout how popular for whatever, for
Yeah, it was, it was probably comingback around, but it was just neat
to see some of the other things.
Sure.
(07:29):
In the newspaper right there.
So again, the, the video that we're, thatwe made already that's the, show notes.
So if you guys wanna watch that,you can, but it was kind of neat
to see what else was going on.
It's 1907,
Jenn (07:41):
1907.
So Marian, it's so funny,his name is, is Feminine.
When you really think about it.
Marian Robert Morrison and he, hismiddle name will be changed to Michael
because they have a second boy in1911 and they name him Michael.
So are they, I mean, they name him Robert.
(08:02):
So they change his middle name to Michael.
Now, there's no legal papers everfound to show that they did this.
I think they just kind oflike, as a family, did it.
It was like they had a second boyand they really liked the name
Robert, but they had given it to him.
So they're like, well, we're going tokind of take it back and give you Michael
and we're going to call him Robert.
Scott (08:23):
how interesting.
And, and that's funny because one ofthe things that I, I thought I actually
could have done a little bit better in weactually show a lot of childhood pictures.
Mm-Hmm.
kind of on the walls and they're,they're, those are hard to find in Google.
Like a lot of those don't,don't pop up all the time.
So it was neat to kind of seethem on, on, on the wall, but I,
I, I wish I would've pointed out.
It'd been more clear about who JohnWayne was because he was the older
Jenn (08:45):
older brother.
It's obvious.
Scott (08:46):
it's obvious if you're looking at the pictures, but I would have liked to
have called those out more because hisyounger brother was always there with
Jenn (08:54):
Yeah, his, he's four years older and his brother will pass
away nine years before him.
His brother did serve in the U.
S.
Navy.
So they have a dog named Dukeand that is where that nickname
comes from for John Wayne.
And so that.
And we'll get more into this like hissome of his wives would call him Duke
(09:16):
because that is the more Familiarname because John Wayne is a stage
name and even his children have thelast name Morrison children don't
have the last name Wayne now they ifthey are in the movies like Patrick
Wayne That is again their stage name.
Yes, but their legal names are Morrison.
Scott (09:36):
Yeah, and I had read about how he kind of got the nickname as,
as Duke because, you his dog, right.
But his dog would follow him everywhere.
And so they always kindof just became synonymous.
I look, there's the Duke,
Jenn (09:49):
Yeah, Little Duke.
Yep.
Mm hmm.
Scott (09:52):
and so I just thought that was neat.
I mean, it's veryIndiana Jones ask, right.
Because Indiana Jones is his nicknameis like, because the dog's name
Jenn (09:59):
Is Indiana.
Mm hmm.
Scott (10:01):
thought that that was
Jenn (10:03):
So, Wayne's father, Clyde, was the son of American Civil War veteran Marion
Mitchell Morrison, which is why I liketo always Say that because my maiden
name was Mitchell and then his motherMary Molly Brown was from Nebraska but
there is a lot of Scottish ancestry thereand Irish ancestry there and they come
(10:27):
from the different isles there wheretheir family has located from but he
was raised Presbyterian and What I see alot of is his father's a pharmacist and
they move for his job And so they're inthey don't initially they're not from
Winterset, Iowa They're there becausethe pharmacy is there and that's where
(10:47):
the two boys are born and it's shortlyafter Roberts born that they will move
to California again for the pharmacy job.
Scott (10:55):
Yeah, so he lived in Winterset for what?
Jenn (10:58):
Yeah, like seven years And then they will move to California and
they'll settle in Glendale in 1916?
Scott (11:06):
so that's, I mean, that's my neck of the
Jenn (11:07):
Yes.
That was Mm-Hmm.
Scott (11:07):
grew up in that kind of greater
Jenn (11:10):
Mm-Hmm.
.And again, his father will work as apharmacist and he's gonna go to Glendale
High School and he's gonna do sportsand academics, and he doesn't quite have
the grades to go to the Naval Academy.
He applies.
Yes, but he's not accepted because ofpoor grades, so he goes to USC instead.
Scott (11:31):
That's right, Trojans.
It's
Jenn (11:32):
It's so funny.
So while he's at USC, he's six footfour and a half and he plays on the
football team, but he's injured and it'sthat injury, it's a collarbone injury.
Scott (11:44):
They say what
Jenn (11:46):
I
don't know, but I'm sure someone would
Scott (11:48):
someone will know.
But he
Jenn (11:56):
But he didn't injure himself playing football.
He injured himself body
Scott (12:01):
surfing
Jenn (12:02):
but he never wanted to tell his football coach that.
Scott (12:04):
academic
Jenn (12:05):
But he loses his academic scholarship, but when he loses
his scholarship, he has to leavethe university and that's when he
starts working for the movies andstarts doing the prop stuff and the
carpentry stuff and moving stuffand catches the eye of John Ford.
So we talked about his movie career.
Last time this is more about his family.
So I want to stress in 1933He gets married for the
(12:28):
first time at 33 years old.
Scott (12:31):
Yeah, and before we go on to the,
Jenn (12:32):
I mean, he's 26
Scott (12:34):
and before we go on to the end of the marriage thing too, you know, Just
so, so people know when you, especially inthat the greater, Hollywood, Los Angeles
area, it's very common for look for work.
And because Hollywood is sucha big industry out there,
there's work to be had, right?
(12:54):
And USC is right there too far fromthe Hollywood area and the studios,
you know, Glendale, you know, andso it's not surprising that if he's
looking for work, Did that kind of.
Sure.
Jenn (13:06):
Sure, I mean, even if you go to the LA area today, people
always ask, are you in the industry?
And you're like, what?
Scott (13:13):
A.
area today, people alwaysask, are you in the industry?
Well, you live in the area,
Jenn (13:28):
And Hollywood industry, especially at the time in the 1920s, 1930s,
it's a big, like you said, industryof California before California
becomes more tech, what it is today.
It is just an agricultural andHollywood industry at the time.
I mean, Disneyland was the Orange Grove.
Scott (13:45):
Yeah, and that's why I wanted to kind of call that out again,
you would think like, oh, maybehe was pursuing You know, being
an actor and acting and trying.
That was his way in.
He probably wasn't.
He probably initially wasjust looking for work.
Because that is, that's actuallymore common than people realize.
And, and I'm more familiar with that.
(14:06):
Again, having grown up in that area andknown people that work, different parts
of that industry and actually havingknow, again, for, for those, if this is
your first time listening to the show, mygreat grandfather was a prop you know, so
he built some big sets and was in chargeof building sets for some very, very big
Jenn (14:25):
Rear window
Scott (14:26):
window,
Jenn (14:27):
10 commandments
Scott (14:28):
10 commandments with Charlton
Jenn (14:29):
greatest show on
Scott (14:30):
Yeah.
So, so it was, it's very common outin that area just to kind of set the
stage, give context to people whomight not be from, you know, the West
Jenn (14:40):
sure.
so his first wife Josephineis the daughter of a Diplomat,
but she is of Spanish descent.
So he's, he's a diplomat from Spain andhe meets her and they get married in 1933.
(15:01):
They have four children
Scott (15:02):
Oh, wow.
Jenn (15:03):
and these are the four Michael Wayne Mary, Tony Wayne,
Patrick Wayne, Melinda Wayne.
When you see
Quiet,
Man and you see the four kids sittingin the wagon, those are his children.
Scott (15:18):
Oh, I didn't know
Jenn (15:19):
Those are his four kids.
So Patrick Wayne will go onto have a pretty big movie
Scott (15:24):
Yeah, I mean, and you've seen him in
Jenn (15:26):
Oh, McClintock.
He's been in a lot of movies with him.
He'll be in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.
He's in McClintock.
He's in Big Jake.
So he has a pretty big career.
So he will have four childrenfrom his first marriage.
He subsequently will getdivorced and marry Esperanza.
She's from Latin America.
(15:46):
He probably wasn't likelyhad an affair with her.
He marries her really on the eveof his divorce from his first wife.
Now they never have children.
They're only married for,I think like four years.
Yeah, it was very steamy, veryvolatile No, they're actually
married for eight years.
She accuses him of a lot of affairs,some are true, some are not.
(16:09):
She's greeted him at the door acouple times with a loaded gun.
So, you can just imagine.
Yeah, I think he likes thiskind of, yeah, the flair.
Scott (16:23):
lot of Yeah, I
Jenn (16:24):
Yeah.
So his third wife, again,married on the eve of divorce,
Pilar, will be his last wife.
They will never divorce,although they will separate.
And he has three children with her.
So you hear Ayesa Wayne, who's still alivetoday, John Ethan Wayne, who is named
after his character from The Searchers.
(16:44):
And he's also in the movie Big Jake, playshis grandson, even though he's the son.
And then Marissa Wayne.
So Ayesa Wayne and Marissa Wayne.
Very.
Similar sounding names, butthey're all alive today.
Only Patrick Wayne isalive of the first four.
And then his three youngerones are still alive
Scott (17:01):
I don't think that was, that was something I've never really thought
too much about John Wayne's personal
Jenn (17:06):
Mm hmm.
Scott (17:07):
other than I knew he had some
Jenn (17:09):
Sure.
Scott (17:10):
know, Patrick but it's one of those things it's interesting when you learn
a little bit more about these historicalyou know, whether they're in the actors
or kind of, ex presidents or whoever itis, and you learn about like Wait, what
do you mean first Oh, there was two.
(17:30):
No, no, no, there was three.
It gives you a little bit more kind ofmore of the picture about the person
than necessarily the legend that iswhoever you're talking about, right?
And in this case, it's John Wayne.
And, and, you know, not, I'm not tryingto bring him down at all, it's just
interesting, you know, as you learnmore about these people who really most
(17:55):
people know and they're, they're verykind of have an emotional attachment to
John Wayne and his movies and becauseof what he represented and what those
movies often and the themes oftenrepresented, it's always interesting
to learn a little bit more about theperson that's behind the curtain.
Jenn (18:13):
Well, I would say John Wayne is, for lack of better
words, a typical movie star.
Of the time.
Because these men of the time, if youthink of Clark Gable, if you're thinking
of, Jimmy Stewart is an anomaly.
He will stay married to his oneand only wife for his whole life.
But there are some whothey do have affairs.
(18:33):
They do have different women and itis kind of more acceptable and almost
like encouraged of leading men becauseit makes this this draw about them.
Scott (18:46):
of the time, too.
I, you know, I don't know if it wouldbe encouraged, but it's not as easily
compared to things like know, it's,you know, if, if somebody suspected
something, well, it's hard to,harder to catch someone in the act.
There's no, not everybody has their cellphone in their pocket a camera, right?
(19:09):
And then to actually publish somethingand, you know, Hollywood industry
at the time had a lot of power.
So, that's interesting to kind of, again,
Jenn (19:18):
But he's a big family man.
And they even talk aboutthat in the museum.
So big car to get the seven children in.
He has a Ship or boat called I wouldsay a small ship called the wild
goose that he ports in Long Beach.
And he likes to take it outto Catalina and big family guy
(19:39):
likes to have his kids with him.
There's lots of pictures of himselling, debating Christmases
with all seven children orEaster's with all seven children.
He built the John Wayne tennisclub in Newport beach in 1973.
He just was very big into having.
These places to be with his family.
It is now the Palisades Tennis Club.
Scott (20:00):
Club.
Jenn (20:01):
So, he's just, he is this guy who really does love his family around him.
Now, even though him and Pilar aregoing to separate in 1973, and he
lives to 1979, they will never divorce.
And she is very adamant to letpeople know they never divorced.
Now, he will go on to have arelationship with his personal assistant.
(20:23):
And she writes a book, I thinkcalled John Wayne and Me, and
I actually read that book.
And if you, and then they becameboyfriend, girlfriend, and she,
she took care of him basicallytowards the end of his life.
And if you ever hear whatJohn Wayne's last words were.
It's, of course I know who you are.
You're my girl.
And he was, he said it to her.
Scott (20:44):
So
Jenn (20:45):
So he was like, she had come in to check on him in the, in the hospital room.
And she said, do you know who I am?
And he goes, of course I know who you are.
You're my girl.
So that's his last words were to
Scott (20:56):
words were to her.
Were to her.
Yeah, and that's actually, it'sfunny because I actually made a
short about that amount of traffic.
I don't think I realized
Jenn (21:05):
Yeah, it was his former secretary, Pat Stacey, and she published a
book called Duke, A Love Story.
And I read that book.
It's, it's fine.
It's good, you know, but it just gives youthe background into the end of his life.
He also, his hair beganto thin in the 1940s.
(21:27):
And he would wear a hairpiece.
So
you can see this a lot likeFrank Sinatra wore a hairpiece.
And different people of the time, again,I think Gene Kelly wore a hairpiece.
And so, there would be pictures ofhim without his hairpiece on, like,
I think he went to Gary Cooper'sfuneral without the hairpiece so
you could see his thinning hair.
And then when he was at Harvard, he hadgone there, they do the those awards,
(21:51):
what are they called, the LampoonAwards, where they kind of, the Razzies.
aNd they were making fun of himfor some role and John Wayne took
pride in accepting the award.
He showed up in a tankand it was really great.
He really like embodied you know,being a part of this persona.
And they asked him about.
The hair is a true your toupeeis real hair and he responded.
(22:14):
Well, sir.
That's real hair.
Not mine, but real hair.
Scott (22:18):
Oh, so he, so he wasn't afraid to
Jenn (22:20):
No, no, he actually and they say a lot that Duke's personality and sense of
humor is very close to what people wouldsee in the big screen when he was joking
is really that's kind of who he was.
So, yeah, towards the end ofhis life, he will get cancer
and he's the one who they think.
coined the term the big C.
So that's what he would call it.
(22:41):
The big C.
He had lung cancer, and then hehad one of his lungs removed and
two ribs removed right beforehe shot The Sons of Katie Elder.
And we talked about this.
He wanted to do his own stuntsin The Sons of Katie Elder.
And if you watch that movie, he'skind of dragged through like a river.
And he ends up getting, nota river, like a stream, and
he ends up getting pneumonia.
And with the one lung, he was veryclose to being close to death there,
(23:05):
but he was so adamant that he couldstill do all these stunts that he really
put his life in jeopardy during that.
Then towards the end of his life in1979, the cancer had come back and
he had volunteered to do a study, avolunteer study, and he had checked
himself into the hospital there in L.
(23:25):
A.
for the study.
And he ends up passing away there.
And his, he actually passes away inJune of 1979, actually June 11th,
1979, our daughter's birthday.
Scott (23:36):
Yeah.
Jenn (23:37):
And but he will appear at the Oscars that year.
So that's his last public appearance.
So in earlier in the year, you, that'sthe last time you will see John Wayne.
And he's a lot different.
He's a lot thinner.
And for a six foot four and ahalf man, who was always pretty.
Big and to see him then it was justa, a, a change but he, you know,
(24:01):
he ends up, you know, leaving thewild goose, docked in Newport beach.
It's listed on the U Sregistry of historic places.
There's a lot of pictures ofhim with that boat or ship.
He really did enjoy
Scott (24:14):
there was, there was a lot in the, movie part of things.
They, they show a lot of, a lot ofpictures of him on, on the boat.
That's kind of how I always picturedhim as well as as someone, not
only, you know, the movie star, butwhen not making out there making
movies, like you said, a family manwho's out there doing stuff, right?
(24:38):
He's out there fishing.
He's out there.
You know, hunting doingall those kinds of things.
I mean, I, that's why I kind offind it amusing that he hurt his
knee while he was in college body
Jenn (24:48):
in college
Scott (24:49):
Right?
Because here's a, here's a guy justlike anything at the time, like, you
know, in the, in that era, you're notsitting around watching TV all the time.
You're, you're out there doing stuffand that's kind of, that's who he was
and, and he really did embody that.
Jenn (25:06):
There's been some controversy around John Wayne.
The Playboy interview is probably thebiggest one where he was interviewed
for Playboy 1971 and he was talking insupport of Vietnam and he made it very
clear that he was in support of Vietnam.
He also talked about hebelieved in white supremacy.
(25:26):
And he says, I believe in whitesupremacy until the blacks are educated
to the point of responsibility.
And so he felt, and I don't knowexactly how he felt, but what he says
here and how I interpret it is thatit's a white person's responsibility
to educate and bring up the, thepeople who have been oppressed.
(25:51):
And he.
almost feels like he believes until,until people can be to the point of
being educated and to hand it over Thatthe white supremacy is more like white
Responsibility is what I read from thisand I'm not trying to make excuses for
him, but that's how I'm reading his
(26:12):
words
Scott (26:13):
of the things, right, as we kind of joked about in the beginning,
I'm not the history guy, but I'vemarried into the history world.
And one of the things that I've seen,you know, from some of these historic
know, like John, like the John Waynesand, and like some others, you know,
that, that are much more controversial.
(26:33):
A lot of times, Again, I'll say theway that I interpret it from what I
see and what they say or what they'retrying to is they don't necessarily have
the vocabulary that we have developed,however many years later today.
I'd say, you know, society today isa lot better educated when it comes
(26:54):
to talking about race and talkingabout, you know, past enslavement and
kind of, know, those things evolve.
I mean, we even joke about Who isit that you visited when you were
out in Mississippi, Emmett Till?
Jenn (27:06):
Till, oh my, Miss Heron?
Miss Heron.
Mm hmm.
Scott (27:10):
right?
And so, people use the languagethat they grew up and were taught
and You kind of really have totake the see what they right?
And again, unless they say, unlessthey write down somewhere or they
say how they feel, you kind ofhave to interpret a little bit.
(27:30):
But again, a lot of times theyjust don't have the language.
That we would have, right?
Take John Wayne and transport him50 years into the future to today.
And he may have said that in a muchmore, by today's today's through, in a
much more socially acceptable manner.
Right?
Again, you and I are verymuch interpreting here.
(27:53):
But you have to remember that.
Jenn (27:55):
You
have to remember that.
And so I always look for people saidthis and what did they do, right?
And so John Wayne on the set of TheSearchers, if you think of the American
Indian woman on The Searchers whoplays the bride of the boy, right?
She was, John Wayne found hercrying on set and he was like,
what are you upset about?
(28:15):
And she goes, I'm going to miss myson's graduation from high school.
John Wayne shut down the setand flew her back to LA so she
could attend his graduation.
So he, I don't think And again, I, Ithink, like you said, people don't have
the words in the 1970s, even today peopleare still looking for the right way to
express themselves with clear words,because really finding the right word
(28:40):
for a feeling is a difficult thing to do.
I think with John Wayne, I think hisheart is in the right place for me
when I base it on his actions thanwhat he's trying to say or interpret
or in one interview, one time.
And this is what Patrick Wayne kindof gets into after this after this
interview resurfaces again, and in2019 people want to change the John
(29:04):
Wayne airport and his son defends himsaying it would be an injustice to
judge someone based on an interviewthat's being taken out of context.
Scott (29:13):
and, and that's what you and I really try hard to do is paint the
picture and give you the context,you the listener that's listening to
this We try to give you the contextand we try to frame it in such a way.
That we're not laying in one wayor the other, but we, we, we try to
really understand what it was likeback then and also identify the lens
(29:36):
that we view things through now.
If you can identify that, you're, you'regoing to understand history a lot better.
You're going to understand what thesehistoric figures are saying in public,
in interviews, in whatever letters theywrite much better if you understand one.
The glasses that we look atthings and two, the context
Jenn (29:59):
And like I said, I like to tell you what people said, I also
like to tell you what people did.
Again, you can make up your mind ofhow you feel about John Wayne, and you
can tell us in the comments if how youfeel about him, because I know people
have different feelings about him.
But for the most part, what I want youto know and understand is as a historian,
our job, and my job, when I talk topeople like Miss Heron, who It was
(30:24):
brought up in the times of Mississippi.
I want to understandwhere they're coming from.
Start to pose the questionsand get in their mind.
And when you really start to changehearts, you really have to understand
where someone's coming from.
And if you really want Change.
And if that's what we want inthis world is to change people
and use history as a catalyst.
(30:45):
So don't repeat history.
Don't do the same things as stories.
If we want to use history as acatalyst, then we really have to treat
people with respect where they'reat, understand where they're coming
from and really empathize and thenstart to pull, ask questions and get.
change of heart if, if that'swhat we're looking for.
(31:09):
So again, as a historian, I,you know, and I love John Wayne.
I wanted to talk about his family,his love of his family, and I
wanted to paint the picture.
Three wives, seven kids, and had thisplayboy interview, acted differently
in real life, and part of hisgrave when he finally passes away.
(31:30):
July and June of 1979 he's buriedat Pacific View Memorial Park and
he has not an ornate tombstone.
We've talked about this beforehe's buried in the same Cemetery as
Jimmy Stewart not far actually awayfrom Jimmy Stewart flat tombstone.
Nothing even that's It sticks out outof the ground and it says tomorrow
(31:52):
comes clean with no mistakes in it.
And we hope that we have learnedsomething from yesterday to
do our best for tomorrow.
And that is from the same interview.
So I'm just putting it out there.
That is what's on this tombstone.
That's the same interview.
And here I hear what I hear when Ihear this is someone who is admits that
(32:13):
they are still learning and not always
Scott (32:17):
Yeah.
And that's, that's incredibly important.
And again, we've seenthat a couple of times.
We've talked about somecontroversial things.
Will say or do and, and later in life,they, you see their actions change
that support, What you would assumeis, is them learning and them accepting
(32:38):
and coming what we today would So
we've had the privilege of delving deepinto the life and legacy of John Wayne,
right from the heart of Winterset,Iowa, where it all It's incredible how
a small house in a quiet town can bethe birthplace of a Hollywood legend.
(33:03):
As we've explored the life of JohnWayne, we also uncovered the deep
connections between his early years andthe unforgettable characters portrayed
on the We hope you've enjoyed thisjourney through time and cinema as
we've enjoyed it bringing it to you.
If you found this episode as fascinatingas we did, please take a moment to
hit that subscribe button, leave areview, and share this episode with
(33:24):
friends, family, and fellow . History.
and film And remember the John WayneBirthplace Home in Winterset, Iowa is
not just a It's a symbol and testamentto the power of dreams, determination,
and the enduring appeal of storytelling.
Thank you for listening tothe Talk with History podcast.
If you know someone else that might enjoythis, again, please share it with them.
(33:44):
We rely on you, our community, to grow,and we appreciate you all every day.
We'll talk to you next
Jenn (33:50):
next time.
Thank
Scott (33:51):
you.
I was thinking.
Jenn (00:01):
It's dangerous.
Scott (00:02):
It's dangerous.
Have I fall I don't know.
Because I know more about historythan at least all the topics
that we've than your average
Jenn (00:21):
History nerd husband.
Scott (00:24):
adjacent?
So would I be, like, history...
history nerd friendly?
Like, what, what, what,like, what category
Jenn (00:31):
Well, it's not like it's almost like you're
Scott (00:33):
I'm trying to claim.
it?
Yeah, I married into
Jenn (00:35):
You married into
Scott (00:36):
married into
Jenn (00:37):
So what's that called?
Scott (00:38):
nerddom.
I don't know.
I was, I was wondering that because,I mean, that's what we're doing.
That's second career for me, for you.
It's going to be, it's going to be history
Jenn (00:50):
History nerd in law?
Scott (00:52):
History of law.
I don't know.
For those listening I don'tknow if you guys ever have a
good thought reach out to me,
Welcome to Talk With I'm your host, Scott,here with my wife and historian, Jen.
Jenn (01:13):
podcast, we give
Scott (01:14):
On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired world
travels, YouTube channel journey,and examine history through deeper
conversations with the curious, Beforewe jump into the episode, I do want to
ask for it's the best way, it's one ofthe best And it's kind of social proof
(01:37):
for the podcast as people stumble across.
If you're listening on Apple podcastsand most people do, those reviews
really do help even if you just go inreal quick, drop us five stars and say,
Hey, Love history, love the show, orlove this episode, or whatever it is.
It really is kind of social proof aspeople stumble across the podcast and
they go in there and search for it.
And I don't think the History Channeldoes a lot of John Wayne topics,
Jenn (02:00):
Um, and I don't think they
Scott (02:01):
history period, so we're coming for you History Channel.
I haven't said that in a while.
But History Channel, youbetter watch out, because
Jenn (02:10):
It's
Scott (02:11):
this stuff, that you and
Jenn (02:14):
common for you, Jen's Gaines of history.
Scott (02:22):
Today, we are embarking on a journey to explore the life and legacy
of one of America's most iconic figures,the legendary John We're taking you on
an adventure to Winterset, Iowa, wherewe visited the very house where Marian
Morrison, the man who would later becomeJohn Wayne, entered this It's more than
(02:43):
just a house, it's a window into theearly years of a Hollywood We're going
to unravel the story of John Wayne's lifefrom his humble beginnings in Winterset
to his transformation into the Dukeand the enduring legacy he left on the
silver We'll delve deep into the rootsof this cinematic legend and explore
his later family life and how his ownkids ventured into So whether you're
(03:07):
a fan of Westerns, a history buff, orjust someone curious about the life
of a true American icon, this episodepromises to be a journey through time
and cinema you won't want to miss.
Without further ado, let's step backin time and experience the life and
times of John Wayne as we visit hisbirthplace home in Winterset, Iowa.
(03:30):
So Jen, this was, again, at the tail endof our western road trip, and this was
a, a huge kind of thing for you to do.
This was, this is the one thingwe did in Iowa as we were driving.
So let's talk a little bit about Wintersetand then the birthplace of this cinematic
Jenn (03:48):
Yeah, so you know, pretty much the start of Walk With History, I did a
lot of John Wayne research and this wasalways a bucket list place for me to go
because I grew up on John Wayne movies.
So I always wanted to see the JohnWayne Museum and the John Wayne House.
Scott (04:09):
This was always wanted to see the John Wayne Museum
and the John Wayne House.
John Wayne Americana and,and history Americana.
And that was literally one ofthe things that inspired you
to, to, to start the channel.
Jenn (04:26):
Yes,
because people were showingsome things on YouTube, but they
weren't really connecting it.
Like, why does this matter?
Or why, how does this impact us today?
How does John Wayne impact us today?
What is he left?
What is his legacy?
What is his Americana legacy?
What did we, you know?
We think a lot about the West becauseof John Wayne, he is the, the Western
(04:50):
actor of the time, like I said, highestgrossing film actor for three decades.
He presents us with the window intoa lot of these different stories.
and brings them to life for us.
And you just think of John Wayne.
He is a movie star.
And you think of him with theswagger, with the star, with the
(05:12):
gun, you know, in, in a shootout.
Like this is, you picture John Wayne asthis man who is part of building America.
Now he didn't build it per se asthe Westerners really did, but
he's going to personify it andshow it on the silver screen.
Scott (05:29):
I just thought that was so neat that you, you called that out that
we were standing in the birthplaceof the person inspired us to, to be
there and to be filming to begin with.
So I, I just thought that was really neat.
And we talked briefly about last week'sepisode, was more about his movie career.
We're going to focus more on familylife about kind of where set being off
(05:49):
kind of in the middle of Iowa off thebeaten path a little bit easy to find.
The, the movie museum is great,and if you guys are curious about
that, I'd encourage you to listento the episode just before this.
We talk about kind of more his moviecareer and the museum itself, but we're
going to focus more on his personal
Jenn (06:10):
Sure.
So the house is kind ofconnected with the museum.
If you want to visit the museum.
And then go to the house,it's right next door.
And his house is at 220 South2nd Street in Winterset, Iowa.
And he was born there May 26th, 1907.
And it really hasn'tchanged a lot since then.
It's a four bedroom house, orfour bedroom, four room house.
(06:33):
One bedroom, one bedroom, one kitchen,one dining room, one living room.
That's it.
And so in the local newspaperreported four days after his birth
that he weighed 13 pounds at birth.
And so when we're in that house and Ishow you the room where he was born,
I just comment on a 13 pound baby.
(06:56):
I just can't even imagine amountof emotions that might have been
coming out of that room at the time.
Scott (07:02):
were there's a lot of screaming going on in this
room and it's cool because theyactually had the newspaper from
Jenn (07:08):
And So
Scott (07:09):
You know that one of the things that I noticed in the announcement
of was just below that was an articleabout how popular for whatever, for
Yeah, it was, it was probably comingback around, but it was just neat
to see some of the other things.
Sure.
(07:29):
In the newspaper right there.
So again, the, the video that we're, thatwe made already that's the, show notes.
So if you guys wanna watch that,you can, but it was kind of neat
to see what else was going on.
It's 1907,
Jenn (07:41):
1907.
So Marian, it's so funny,his name is, is Feminine.
When you really think about it.
Marian Robert Morrison and he, hismiddle name will be changed to Michael
because they have a second boy in1911 and they name him Michael.
So are they, I mean, they name him Robert.
(08:02):
So they change his middle name to Michael.
Now, there's no legal papers everfound to show that they did this.
I think they just kind oflike, as a family, did it.
It was like they had a second boyand they really liked the name
Robert, but they had given it to him.
So they're like, well, we're going tokind of take it back and give you Michael
and we're going to call him Robert.
Scott (08:23):
how interesting.
And, and that's funny because one ofthe things that I, I thought I actually
could have done a little bit better in weactually show a lot of childhood pictures.
Mm-Hmm.
kind of on the walls and they're,they're, those are hard to find in Google.
Like a lot of those don't,don't pop up all the time.
So it was neat to kind of seethem on, on, on the wall, but I,
I, I wish I would've pointed out.
It'd been more clear about who JohnWayne was because he was the older
Jenn (08:45):
older brother.
It's obvious.
Scott (08:46):
it's obvious if you're looking at the pictures, but I would have liked to
have called those out more because hisyounger brother was always there with
Jenn (08:54):
Yeah, his, he's four years older and his brother will pass
away nine years before him.
His brother did serve in the U.
S.
Navy.
So they have a dog named Dukeand that is where that nickname
comes from for John Wayne.
And so that.
And we'll get more into this like hissome of his wives would call him Duke
(09:16):
because that is the more Familiarname because John Wayne is a stage
name and even his children have thelast name Morrison children don't
have the last name Wayne now they ifthey are in the movies like Patrick
Wayne That is again their stage name.
Yes, but their legal names are Morrison.
Scott (09:36):
Yeah, and I had read about how he kind of got the nickname as,
as Duke because, you his dog, right.
But his dog would follow him everywhere.
And so they always kindof just became synonymous.
I look, there's the Duke,
Jenn (09:49):
Yeah, Little Duke.
Yep.
Mm hmm.
Scott (09:52):
and so I just thought that was neat.
I mean, it's veryIndiana Jones ask, right.
Because Indiana Jones is his nicknameis like, because the dog's name
Jenn (09:59):
Is Indiana.
Mm hmm.
Scott (10:01):
thought that that was
Jenn (10:03):
So, Wayne's father, Clyde, was the son of American Civil War veteran Marion
Mitchell Morrison, which is why I liketo always Say that because my maiden
name was Mitchell and then his motherMary Molly Brown was from Nebraska but
there is a lot of Scottish ancestry thereand Irish ancestry there and they come
(10:27):
from the different isles there wheretheir family has located from but he
was raised Presbyterian and What I see alot of is his father's a pharmacist and
they move for his job And so they're inthey don't initially they're not from
Winterset, Iowa They're there becausethe pharmacy is there and that's where
(10:47):
the two boys are born and it's shortlyafter Roberts born that they will move
to California again for the pharmacy job.
Scott (10:55):
Yeah, so he lived in Winterset for what?
Jenn (10:58):
Yeah, like seven years And then they will move to California and
they'll settle in Glendale in 1916?
Scott (11:06):
so that's, I mean, that's my neck of the
Jenn (11:07):
Yes.
That was Mm-Hmm.
Scott (11:07):
grew up in that kind of greater
Jenn (11:10):
Mm-Hmm.
.And again, his father will work as apharmacist and he's gonna go to Glendale
High School and he's gonna do sportsand academics, and he doesn't quite have
the grades to go to the Naval Academy.
He applies.
Yes, but he's not accepted because ofpoor grades, so he goes to USC instead.
Scott (11:31):
That's right, Trojans.
It's
Jenn (11:32):
It's so funny.
So while he's at USC, he's six footfour and a half and he plays on the
football team, but he's injured and it'sthat injury, it's a collarbone injury.
Scott (11:44):
They say what
Jenn (11:46):
I
don't know, but I'm sure someone would
Scott (11:48):
someone will know.
But he
Jenn (11:56):
But he didn't injure himself playing football.
He injured himself body
Scott (12:01):
surfing
Jenn (12:02):
but he never wanted to tell his football coach that.
Scott (12:04):
academic
Jenn (12:05):
But he loses his academic scholarship, but when he loses
his scholarship, he has to leavethe university and that's when he
starts working for the movies andstarts doing the prop stuff and the
carpentry stuff and moving stuffand catches the eye of John Ford.
So we talked about his movie career.
Last time this is more about his family.
So I want to stress in 1933He gets married for the
(12:28):
first time at 33 years old.
Scott (12:31):
Yeah, and before we go on to the,
Jenn (12:32):
I mean, he's 26
Scott (12:34):
and before we go on to the end of the marriage thing too, you know, Just
so, so people know when you, especially inthat the greater, Hollywood, Los Angeles
area, it's very common for look for work.
And because Hollywood is sucha big industry out there,
there's work to be had, right?
(12:54):
And USC is right there too far fromthe Hollywood area and the studios,
you know, Glendale, you know, andso it's not surprising that if he's
looking for work, Did that kind of.
Sure.
Jenn (13:06):
Sure, I mean, even if you go to the LA area today, people
always ask, are you in the industry?
And you're like, what?
Scott (13:13):
A.
area today, people alwaysask, are you in the industry?
Well, you live in the area,
Jenn (13:28):
And Hollywood industry, especially at the time in the 1920s, 1930s,
it's a big, like you said, industryof California before California
becomes more tech, what it is today.
It is just an agricultural andHollywood industry at the time.
I mean, Disneyland was the Orange Grove.
Scott (13:45):
Yeah, and that's why I wanted to kind of call that out again,
you would think like, oh, maybehe was pursuing You know, being
an actor and acting and trying.
That was his way in.
He probably wasn't.
He probably initially wasjust looking for work.
Because that is, that's actuallymore common than people realize.
And, and I'm more familiar with that.
(14:06):
Again, having grown up in that area andknown people that work, different parts
of that industry and actually havingknow, again, for, for those, if this is
your first time listening to the show, mygreat grandfather was a prop you know, so
he built some big sets and was in chargeof building sets for some very, very big
Jenn (14:25):
Rear window
Scott (14:26):
window,
Jenn (14:27):
10 commandments
Scott (14:28):
10 commandments with Charlton
Jenn (14:29):
greatest show on
Scott (14:30):
Yeah.
So, so it was, it's very common outin that area just to kind of set the
stage, give context to people whomight not be from, you know, the West
Jenn (14:40):
sure.
so his first wife Josephineis the daughter of a Diplomat,
but she is of Spanish descent.
So he's, he's a diplomat from Spain andhe meets her and they get married in 1933.
(15:01):
They have four children
Scott (15:02):
Oh, wow.
Jenn (15:03):
and these are the four Michael Wayne Mary, Tony Wayne,
Patrick Wayne, Melinda Wayne.
When you see
Quiet,
Man and you see the four kids sittingin the wagon, those are his children.
Scott (15:18):
Oh, I didn't know
Jenn (15:19):
Those are his four kids.
So Patrick Wayne will go onto have a pretty big movie
Scott (15:24):
Yeah, I mean, and you've seen him in
Jenn (15:26):
Oh, McClintock.
He's been in a lot of movies with him.
He'll be in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.
He's in McClintock.
He's in Big Jake.
So he has a pretty big career.
So he will have four childrenfrom his first marriage.
He subsequently will getdivorced and marry Esperanza.
She's from Latin America.
(15:46):
He probably wasn't likelyhad an affair with her.
He marries her really on the eveof his divorce from his first wife.
Now they never have children.
They're only married for,I think like four years.
Yeah, it was very steamy, veryvolatile No, they're actually
married for eight years.
She accuses him of a lot of affairs,some are true, some are not.
(16:09):
She's greeted him at the door acouple times with a loaded gun.
So, you can just imagine.
Yeah, I think he likes thiskind of, yeah, the flair.
Scott (16:23):
lot of Yeah, I
Jenn (16:24):
Yeah.
So his third wife, again,married on the eve of divorce,
Pilar, will be his last wife.
They will never divorce,although they will separate.
And he has three children with her.
So you hear Ayesa Wayne, who's still alivetoday, John Ethan Wayne, who is named
after his character from The Searchers.
(16:44):
And he's also in the movie Big Jake, playshis grandson, even though he's the son.
And then Marissa Wayne.
So Ayesa Wayne and Marissa Wayne.
Very.
Similar sounding names, butthey're all alive today.
Only Patrick Wayne isalive of the first four.
And then his three youngerones are still alive
Scott (17:01):
I don't think that was, that was something I've never really thought
too much about John Wayne's personal
Jenn (17:06):
Mm hmm.
Scott (17:07):
other than I knew he had some
Jenn (17:09):
Sure.
Scott (17:10):
know, Patrick but it's one of those things it's interesting when you learn
a little bit more about these historicalyou know, whether they're in the actors
or kind of, ex presidents or whoever itis, and you learn about like Wait, what
do you mean first Oh, there was two.
(17:30):
No, no, no, there was three.
It gives you a little bit more kind ofmore of the picture about the person
than necessarily the legend that iswhoever you're talking about, right?
And in this case, it's John Wayne.
And, and, you know, not, I'm not tryingto bring him down at all, it's just
interesting, you know, as you learnmore about these people who really most
(17:55):
people know and they're, they're verykind of have an emotional attachment to
John Wayne and his movies and becauseof what he represented and what those
movies often and the themes oftenrepresented, it's always interesting
to learn a little bit more about theperson that's behind the curtain.
Jenn (18:13):
Well, I would say John Wayne is, for lack of better
words, a typical movie star.
Of the time.
Because these men of the time, if youthink of Clark Gable, if you're thinking
of, Jimmy Stewart is an anomaly.
He will stay married to his oneand only wife for his whole life.
But there are some whothey do have affairs.
(18:33):
They do have different women and itis kind of more acceptable and almost
like encouraged of leading men becauseit makes this this draw about them.
Scott (18:46):
of the time, too.
I, you know, I don't know if it wouldbe encouraged, but it's not as easily
compared to things like know, it's,you know, if, if somebody suspected
something, well, it's hard to,harder to catch someone in the act.
There's no, not everybody has their cellphone in their pocket a camera, right?
(19:09):
And then to actually publish somethingand, you know, Hollywood industry
at the time had a lot of power.
So, that's interesting to kind of, again,
Jenn (19:18):
But he's a big family man.
And they even talk aboutthat in the museum.
So big car to get the seven children in.
He has a Ship or boat called I wouldsay a small ship called the wild
goose that he ports in Long Beach.
And he likes to take it outto Catalina and big family guy
(19:39):
likes to have his kids with him.
There's lots of pictures of himselling, debating Christmases
with all seven children orEaster's with all seven children.
He built the John Wayne tennisclub in Newport beach in 1973.
He just was very big into having.
These places to be with his family.
It is now the Palisades Tennis Club.
Scott (20:00):
Club.
Jenn (20:01):
So, he's just, he is this guy who really does love his family around him.
Now, even though him and Pilar aregoing to separate in 1973, and he
lives to 1979, they will never divorce.
And she is very adamant to letpeople know they never divorced.
Now, he will go on to have arelationship with his personal assistant.
(20:23):
And she writes a book, I thinkcalled John Wayne and Me, and
I actually read that book.
And if you, and then they becameboyfriend, girlfriend, and she,
she took care of him basicallytowards the end of his life.
And if you ever hear whatJohn Wayne's last words were.
It's, of course I know who you are.
You're my girl.
And he was, he said it to her.
Scott (20:44):
So
Jenn (20:45):
So he was like, she had come in to check on him in the, in the hospital room.
And she said, do you know who I am?
And he goes, of course I know who you are.
You're my girl.
So that's his last words were to
Scott (20:56):
words were to her.
Were to her.
Yeah, and that's actually, it'sfunny because I actually made a
short about that amount of traffic.
I don't think I realized
Jenn (21:05):
Yeah, it was his former secretary, Pat Stacey, and she published a
book called Duke, A Love Story.
And I read that book.
It's, it's fine.
It's good, you know, but it just gives youthe background into the end of his life.
He also, his hair beganto thin in the 1940s.
(21:27):
And he would wear a hairpiece.
So
you can see this a lot likeFrank Sinatra wore a hairpiece.
And different people of the time, again,I think Gene Kelly wore a hairpiece.
And so, there would be pictures ofhim without his hairpiece on, like,
I think he went to Gary Cooper'sfuneral without the hairpiece so
you could see his thinning hair.
And then when he was at Harvard, he hadgone there, they do the those awards,
(21:51):
what are they called, the LampoonAwards, where they kind of, the Razzies.
aNd they were making fun of himfor some role and John Wayne took
pride in accepting the award.
He showed up in a tankand it was really great.
He really like embodied you know,being a part of this persona.
And they asked him about.
The hair is a true your toupeeis real hair and he responded.
(22:14):
Well, sir.
That's real hair.
Not mine, but real hair.
Scott (22:18):
Oh, so he, so he wasn't afraid to
Jenn (22:20):
No, no, he actually and they say a lot that Duke's personality and sense of
humor is very close to what people wouldsee in the big screen when he was joking
is really that's kind of who he was.
So, yeah, towards the end ofhis life, he will get cancer
and he's the one who they think.
coined the term the big C.
So that's what he would call it.
(22:41):
The big C.
He had lung cancer, and then hehad one of his lungs removed and
two ribs removed right beforehe shot The Sons of Katie Elder.
And we talked about this.
He wanted to do his own stuntsin The Sons of Katie Elder.
And if you watch that movie, he'skind of dragged through like a river.
And he ends up getting, nota river, like a stream, and
he ends up getting pneumonia.
And with the one lung, he was veryclose to being close to death there,
(23:05):
but he was so adamant that he couldstill do all these stunts that he really
put his life in jeopardy during that.
Then towards the end of his life in1979, the cancer had come back and
he had volunteered to do a study, avolunteer study, and he had checked
himself into the hospital there in L.
(23:25):
A.
for the study.
And he ends up passing away there.
And his, he actually passes away inJune of 1979, actually June 11th,
1979, our daughter's birthday.
Scott (23:36):
Yeah.
Jenn (23:37):
And but he will appear at the Oscars that year.
So that's his last public appearance.
So in earlier in the year, you, that'sthe last time you will see John Wayne.
And he's a lot different.
He's a lot thinner.
And for a six foot four and ahalf man, who was always pretty.
Big and to see him then it was justa, a, a change but he, you know,
(24:01):
he ends up, you know, leaving thewild goose, docked in Newport beach.
It's listed on the U Sregistry of historic places.
There's a lot of pictures ofhim with that boat or ship.
He really did enjoy
Scott (24:14):
there was, there was a lot in the, movie part of things.
They, they show a lot of, a lot ofpictures of him on, on the boat.
That's kind of how I always picturedhim as well as as someone, not
only, you know, the movie star, butwhen not making out there making
movies, like you said, a family manwho's out there doing stuff, right?
(24:38):
He's out there fishing.
He's out there.
You know, hunting doingall those kinds of things.
I mean, I, that's why I kind offind it amusing that he hurt his
knee while he was in college body
Jenn (24:48):
in college
Scott (24:49):
Right?
Because here's a, here's a guy justlike anything at the time, like, you
know, in the, in that era, you're notsitting around watching TV all the time.
You're, you're out there doing stuffand that's kind of, that's who he was
and, and he really did embody that.
Jenn (25:06):
There's been some controversy around John Wayne.
The Playboy interview is probably thebiggest one where he was interviewed
for Playboy 1971 and he was talking insupport of Vietnam and he made it very
clear that he was in support of Vietnam.
He also talked about hebelieved in white supremacy.
(25:26):
And he says, I believe in whitesupremacy until the blacks are educated
to the point of responsibility.
And so he felt, and I don't knowexactly how he felt, but what he says
here and how I interpret it is thatit's a white person's responsibility
to educate and bring up the, thepeople who have been oppressed.
(25:51):
And he.
almost feels like he believes until,until people can be to the point of
being educated and to hand it over Thatthe white supremacy is more like white
Responsibility is what I read from thisand I'm not trying to make excuses for
him, but that's how I'm reading his
(26:12):
words
Scott (26:13):
of the things, right, as we kind of joked about in the beginning,
I'm not the history guy, but I'vemarried into the history world.
And one of the things that I've seen,you know, from some of these historic
know, like John, like the John Waynesand, and like some others, you know,
that, that are much more controversial.
(26:33):
A lot of times, Again, I'll say theway that I interpret it from what I
see and what they say or what they'retrying to is they don't necessarily have
the vocabulary that we have developed,however many years later today.
I'd say, you know, society today isa lot better educated when it comes
(26:54):
to talking about race and talkingabout, you know, past enslavement and
kind of, know, those things evolve.
I mean, we even joke about Who isit that you visited when you were
out in Mississippi, Emmett Till?
Jenn (27:06):
Till, oh my, Miss Heron?
Miss Heron.
Mm hmm.
Scott (27:10):
right?
And so, people use the languagethat they grew up and were taught
and You kind of really have totake the see what they right?
And again, unless they say, unlessthey write down somewhere or they
say how they feel, you kind ofhave to interpret a little bit.
(27:30):
But again, a lot of times theyjust don't have the language.
That we would have, right?
Take John Wayne and transport him50 years into the future to today.
And he may have said that in a muchmore, by today's today's through, in a
much more socially acceptable manner.
Right?
Again, you and I are verymuch interpreting here.
(27:53):
But you have to remember that.
Jenn (27:55):
You
have to remember that.
And so I always look for people saidthis and what did they do, right?
And so John Wayne on the set of TheSearchers, if you think of the American
Indian woman on The Searchers whoplays the bride of the boy, right?
She was, John Wayne found hercrying on set and he was like,
what are you upset about?
(28:15):
And she goes, I'm going to miss myson's graduation from high school.
John Wayne shut down the setand flew her back to LA so she
could attend his graduation.
So he, I don't think And again, I, Ithink, like you said, people don't have
the words in the 1970s, even today peopleare still looking for the right way to
express themselves with clear words,because really finding the right word
(28:40):
for a feeling is a difficult thing to do.
I think with John Wayne, I think hisheart is in the right place for me
when I base it on his actions thanwhat he's trying to say or interpret
or in one interview, one time.
And this is what Patrick Wayne kindof gets into after this after this
interview resurfaces again, and in2019 people want to change the John
(29:04):
Wayne airport and his son defends himsaying it would be an injustice to
judge someone based on an interviewthat's being taken out of context.
Scott (29:13):
and, and that's what you and I really try hard to do is paint the
picture and give you the context,you the listener that's listening to
this We try to give you the contextand we try to frame it in such a way.
That we're not laying in one wayor the other, but we, we, we try to
really understand what it was likeback then and also identify the lens
(29:36):
that we view things through now.
If you can identify that, you're, you'regoing to understand history a lot better.
You're going to understand what thesehistoric figures are saying in public,
in interviews, in whatever letters theywrite much better if you understand one.
The glasses that we look atthings and two, the context
Jenn (29:59):
And like I said, I like to tell you what people said, I also
like to tell you what people did.
Again, you can make up your mind ofhow you feel about John Wayne, and you
can tell us in the comments if how youfeel about him, because I know people
have different feelings about him.
But for the most part, what I want youto know and understand is as a historian,
our job, and my job, when I talk topeople like Miss Heron, who It was
(30:24):
brought up in the times of Mississippi.
I want to understandwhere they're coming from.
Start to pose the questionsand get in their mind.
And when you really start to changehearts, you really have to understand
where someone's coming from.
And if you really want Change.
And if that's what we want inthis world is to change people
and use history as a catalyst.
(30:45):
So don't repeat history.
Don't do the same things as stories.
If we want to use history as acatalyst, then we really have to treat
people with respect where they'reat, understand where they're coming
from and really empathize and thenstart to pull, ask questions and get.
change of heart if, if that'swhat we're looking for.
(31:09):
So again, as a historian, I,you know, and I love John Wayne.
I wanted to talk about his family,his love of his family, and I
wanted to paint the picture.
Three wives, seven kids, and had thisplayboy interview, acted differently
in real life, and part of hisgrave when he finally passes away.
(31:30):
July and June of 1979 he's buriedat Pacific View Memorial Park and
he has not an ornate tombstone.
We've talked about this beforehe's buried in the same Cemetery as
Jimmy Stewart not far actually awayfrom Jimmy Stewart flat tombstone.
Nothing even that's It sticks out outof the ground and it says tomorrow
(31:52):
comes clean with no mistakes in it.
And we hope that we have learnedsomething from yesterday to
do our best for tomorrow.
And that is from the same interview.
So I'm just putting it out there.
That is what's on this tombstone.
That's the same interview.
And here I hear what I hear when Ihear this is someone who is admits that
(32:13):
they are still learning and not always
Scott (32:17):
Yeah.
And that's, that's incredibly important.
And again, we've seenthat a couple of times.
We've talked about somecontroversial things.
Will say or do and, and later in life,they, you see their actions change
that support, What you would assumeis, is them learning and them accepting
(32:38):
and coming what we today would So
we've had the privilege of delving deepinto the life and legacy of John Wayne,
right from the heart of Winterset,Iowa, where it all It's incredible how
a small house in a quiet town can bethe birthplace of a Hollywood legend.
(33:03):
As we've explored the life of JohnWayne, we also uncovered the deep
connections between his early years andthe unforgettable characters portrayed
on the We hope you've enjoyed thisjourney through time and cinema as
we've enjoyed it bringing it to you.
If you found this episode as fascinatingas we did, please take a moment to
hit that subscribe button, leave areview, and share this episode with
(33:24):
friends, family, and fellow . History.
and film And remember the John WayneBirthplace Home in Winterset, Iowa is
not just a It's a symbol and testamentto the power of dreams, determination,
and the enduring appeal of storytelling.
Thank you for listening tothe Talk with History podcast.
If you know someone else that might enjoythis, again, please share it with them.
(33:44):
We rely on you, our community, to grow,and we appreciate you all every day.
We'll talk to you next
Jenn (33:50):
next time.
Thank
Scott (33:51):
you.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.