October 8, 2025 • 38 mins
In this thoughtful and funny conversation, Kristen welcomes back Caity for a real-talk episode about boredom, overstimulation, and what it actually means to “touch grass.” Together they explore how our phones have quietly become both comfort and curse - feeding anxiety, stealing stillness, and numbing curiosity.
The two swap childhood road trip stories, talk about the lost art of just staring out a window, and unpack how silence once sparked imagination and creativity. Caity shares how, during a major life transition, boredom unexpectedly led her to trail running, solitude, and self-discovery.
From echo chambers and endless scrolling to rediscovering our senses outdoors, this episode asks a simple but powerful question: what happens when we finally stop refreshing our feeds and start refreshing our minds?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristen (00:02):
Welcome to season two of Talk with Kristen with an E.
This season, we're digging alittle deeper into leadership,
personal growth, and the courageit takes to follow your passion.
Real conversations, honestreflections, because life isn't
perfect and neither are we.
(00:27):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back.
So excited for today's episodebecause we have back one of my
favorite guests.
Guess who's here?
It's Katie.
Hi Katie.
Hello, Kristen.
It is so good to be back.
How are you?
I am doing great and I amthrilled that you're here again.
(00:47):
We had so much fun last time andI know the topic today is going
to be probably just as good.
I can't wait.
So today we're talking about,touching grass and boredom,
which doesn't sound fun when youtalk about like boredom or just
touching grass.
But I think we're gonna get intoa lot more of what that actually
(01:10):
means.
So let's start with the boredompart.
So Katie, do you remember thelast time you were truly bored?
Caity (01:19):
I don't remember the last time I was truly bored.
I don't know if this is a signof just getting older or maybe
that I'm overcommitting myselfor not carving out time to be
bored, but, I am constantlystressed out,
Kristen (01:36):
and I think it depends who has time.
Yeah.
Who has time to just sit and bebored?
When I think of bored, Iremember being a child at home
and being like, mom, I am bored.
And my mom would be like, ifyou're bored, I'll give you
something to do.
Like you can go clean this, dothis, so you never actually
wanted to say you were boredbecause then you were like, can
(01:57):
I get something terrible to do?
But I've thought about it.
Like as an adult.
And I started looking at peopletoo when I'm out.
Even just standing in line at agrocery store or sitting at a
restaurant you look around,there are so many people on
their phones that nobody iswilling to just sit there so
when you think about though,like.
(02:19):
Maybe.
Maybe we have to define boredomfirst because I think sometimes
we just avoid boredom to be busyand we'll scroll or pull out our
phones and we're not givingourselves time to have that kind
of quiet time or space to think,if you're like me, you don't
want to hear your own thoughtsbecause then it builds up
(02:40):
anxiety and irrational fears andthings you'd rather not think
about.
Thoughts on that?
Caity (02:48):
I feel like you just saw inside of my soul.
Let me, explain a little bit somuch truth to what you just
outlined.
I'll go back to your very firstquestion, which was when was the
last time I was bored?
I think I've not allowed myselfto be bored because of my phone.
It's always in my hand.
(03:09):
It's on my nightstand while Isleep, when I wake up, I look at
my phone.
Kristen (03:14):
Mm-hmm.
Caity (03:15):
I'm already checking work emails before I have registered
what time it was or.
Even sat up or rubbed my eyes,you know?
Kristen (03:23):
Like I still have to pee super bad, and there I am
laying in my bed seeing what'snew on Facebook.
Caity (03:29):
Bringing it into the bathroom.
That was just somewhat recent,like epiphany or realization of
like, oh, this is a problem.
This is no bueno.
This is real bad.
Kristen (03:41):
Would you say your phone is more a security blanket
or an emotional support animaland why?
Caity (03:50):
I think I want to think of it as a support thing, but it
is probably the genesis of myanxiety.
If I'm being honest, it'sprobably the source of a lot of
my anxiety, but there's thisaddiction aspect to it, news is
moving at an unprecedented rate.
(04:14):
Every day.
It's like, how can we outdoourselves from yesterday and
there's some level of addictionand breaking news, and now we
have news apps and pushnotifications my phone is also
my work device working on thephone.
I've got work emails on myphone.
(04:35):
It's, it's my everything app.
I think the phone is room somuch, including the art of
debate.
Maybe that can be a whole otherconversation.
Kristen (04:45):
So, oh, now I forgot my question.
It was gonna be a good one too.
Okay.
So no, I wanna stick onsomething else that you just
said though about your phonebeing the cause of your anxiety.
So I see your point.
I understand that.
But do you also have anxiety ifyour phone isn't with you?
Caity (05:06):
I think I do before I put it down, but once I put it down,
I don't miss it.
I don't think about it.
This is not a new thing for me.
Since I've got a phone in, whatwas that
Kristen (05:18):
That's when I got mine, my freshman year.
Caity (05:21):
Yeah.
Kristen (05:22):
It wasn't a smartphone, right?
No, it was a Nokia that I wasable to change the cover on.
I put my Strawberry shortcake,or my Care Bear's cover.
Oh yeah.
I had the old phone.
Cricket was my provider, and Ionly had voice calls because
voicemail and text messagingwere all extra.
And since I was paying my owncell phone bill, I didn't add
any of the extras.
I didn't have caller id.
(05:42):
It was literally just four phonecalls.
Oh, yes, yes.
Which is, which is so crazy nowbecause have you seen the meme
that's like as a millennial,send me a text, send me an
email, send me like all thesethings, and it's like, send me
carrier pigeons, send me smokesignals, and all the way at the
bottom it's like, call me.
Like, don't ever call me.
Caity (06:04):
Or heaven forbid, you know, if you do call me, do not
leave me a voicemail because I'mnot.
Kristen (06:08):
Yeah.
Because then I'm gonna getanxiety.
The voicemails are all gonna addup, and I'm gonna see that I
have six voicemails and I'm notgonna wanna listen to any of
them.
It was such a great thing wheniPhone added that.
You can see the text for whatthe voicemail says, because
voicemails give me anxiety too.
I don't wanna deal with it.
I'm an avoider in so many ways.
(06:28):
The reason I asked if beingwithout your phone gave you
anxiety is because I feel like Ido now, not during the day.
I work in a job where I can'thave my phone with me.
It, you stay in my car, go intoa lockbox, so I'm without my
phone a lot, but when I'm athome and if I don't have my
phone, I feel a little bit.
Where's my phone?
Where did I put it?
What if somebody needs me?
(06:49):
And I worry about that.
It's crazy because when we wereyounger, we didn't have phones
with us all the time.
If something happened, youwouldn't find out about it till
you got home.
And if there was a message onthe answering machine but I am
so worried now, even if I'm at amovie and have my phone on
silent, I'm like, oh my gosh.
What if someone needs me?
What if someone dies?
What if somebody has to call meand I can't answer my phone?
Like I said, I am full ofanxieties and irrational fears
(07:11):
on so many levels,
Caity (07:13):
and you know what?
I hear you and see you on that,but you, had a list of
alternatives or, ways of,contacting each other.
Yeah.
And you mentioned carrierpigeons and we laugh and joke
but that was a real thing.
There was a day where you didn'thear until, some dude on a horse
ran.
Yeah.
The Pony Express to another.
Kristen (07:36):
Yes.
Caity (07:36):
You're right.
Yeah, they were okay.
I mean they might have hadtyphoid fever or something.
But you know, socially they weremaybe less anxious than we are
now.
Kristen (07:47):
You're right.
There was that age where nothinghappened and now we're in this
over influenced, over informedand that probably is causing a
lot of our anxiety.
Caity (08:01):
And I think a lot of it, you used the word over and form
and I think that's reallyimportant because there's this
point of diminishing return.
A lot of it has to do withinformation that affects us in a
real tangible way.
'cause you know, a lot ofthings, we like, I mean these
ear bunny ear quotes likeaffects us.
But if we didn't know about it,we wouldn't know it's affecting
(08:23):
us.
Right.
Like going back to the point ofdiminishing return.
If we consume and seekinformation and news that
directly affect our community,ourselves, our neighbors.
And we have some control.
(08:44):
We can, bring a casserole orwatch their kids while they have
to go to a doctor's appointmentor something like that.
We feel more in control and itbrings our anxiety down.
But when we surpass that pointof what we can and cannot affect
any control or impact over.
All of that excess is, whatbrings so much of the anxiety
(09:08):
because it feels important.
But it is, nearly impossible asan individual or even, a small
collection of people to actuallydo something about it where it's
affecting someone somewhereelse, which is important.
And I think that we all need tobe aware.
Especially of injustices and,things happening around the
world, outside of our immediatecommunities.
(09:29):
But I think the amount of spacethat has taken has compressed
and made smaller.
The space that we have for whatwe can control.
Kristen (09:41):
Hundred percent.
It's the control.
There's all these things goingon that we have no control over
and it's, you know, that I thinkdoes create some of the anxiety
and then the uncomfortablefeeling because there's nothing
we can do about it.
Like there's things we can doabout it, but not on that grand
macro scale.
Like you said, we can do more onthe micro level of within what's
(10:03):
within our scope or within ourrealm of where we can affect
change and control, what we cancontrol.
Caity (10:12):
In the beginning of our conversation, you asked about
boredom and I didn't have a verygood answer, but now that we're
talking I remember very.
Fondly honestly, being a kid wewould drive from central
Florida, pack into a littlewhite caravan and drive up to
northwestern buffalo, like.
(10:35):
Western New York.
Upstate
Kristen (10:37):
New York as we
Caity (10:37):
Well if you call it upstate, then like the Albany
people get angry.
Oh, okay.
It's like this weird, you know,kind of thing.
It was a very long car ride andthe only thing that we had to
entertain us was, maybe like twoor three cassette tapes of the
Beatles.
We would play it until it endedand then we would take the tape
(10:59):
out, flip it over, put it backin and play the other side of
it.
And we would sit there and singThe Beatles for, you know, how
many days it took us to drivefrom Florida to New York.
At some point everyone gets sickof the Beatles and you turn it
off for a little while.
You're a kid buckled into aseat, you cannot move, and it's
(11:24):
silent and you're just staringout the window and you're either
talking or poking, the siblingnext to you.
Or you're looking out thewindow.
And in an interesting way, thatwas my first glimpse at the
world.
Mm-hmm.
Because we, you know, bigfamily, we didn't travel a lot
(11:44):
for the sake of traveling andexploring new places.
Both of, my parents were fromNew York.
We were living in Florida, so alot of our free time for travel
was.
Just a straight shot, not reallystopping to see the sites, it
allowed so many hours, patienthours, uninterrupted hours to
(12:05):
just think about what I'mseeing.
If it's dark out, you know, thenyou're really inside of your
head and those were suchprecious hours.
For me.
Kristen (12:15):
It's funny how alike we are because we'd have to compare
the mileage.
Your trip was probably stilllonger, but my story is almost
exactly the same.
We were living in southwesternPennsylvania, but both of my
parents were from the Bostonarea.
So every summer vacation.
We would go up to New England Ihad family in Massachusetts.
(12:36):
I had family in New Hampshire.
We had family in Maine, so wewould do the whole thing.
And, it was the same thing.
We had, we had more than one or,or two tapes.
'cause my dad had this wholelike, well, you know, we had CD
books when we were older, like,had our own cars.
My dad had a tape book with allthese different tapes.
So we would get to pick tapesand listen to the music.
(12:57):
Sometimes we would play gameslike, I'm going on a trip and
I'm bringing an apple.
I'm going on a trip and I'mbringing an apple and a banana,
and you'd go through the wholealphabet and just around through
everybody.
That was my favorite game.
I also believe it really helpedall my memory skills and
learning, but you're right.
There would be sometimes whereyou'd have to be quiet and I
would just stare out the window,and you're right.
(13:17):
Seeing the sights nighttime wasthe best'cause you could see the
stars and the moon and it waslike, you could pretend you were
anywhere.
I would daydream and imaginethings.
Write stories in my head.
I would read too until I getsick because I didn't, I wasn't
really good reading while in thecar, but you are right.
And I never thought of that asboredom really.
(13:38):
'cause I think boredom has somany connotations, but that was
more just open time.
I think that's what we don't donow as adults is we don't allow
ourselves that time.
And part of it, is because.
Society, you know, it's this go,go, go grind, you've gotta do
the things and be the things Ithink we feel like we always
(14:01):
have to be doing somethingbecause I know there's times
where if I wanna just sit, firstof all, just sitting feels
weird.
I will usually still put the TVon or music but if I do just
sit, I'm like, okay, but Ishould be doing something like
this.
Doesn't feel right to just besitting here like, I'm wasting
time.
I'm not getting things done.
But that's part of the relaxingand resetting and dealing with
(14:24):
our anxiety to just sit.
What do you think about justsitting though,
Caity (14:30):
oh my gosh, you know what that makes me think about?
Wow.
For me, it makes me think abouthow focused we are going back to
the society, especially the us,how focused we are on
productivity.
Also how we measure and valuecertain kinds of productivity
and output.
(14:51):
And I think in a lot of waysit's set up to reward a certain
kind of output because there'snot a clear standard currency to
creative output.
Creative output the same that wedo a more kinda standard
(15:13):
economic, you know, crunch somenumbers, something comes out the
other end of the machine kind ofkind of output.
I think it's important and ifyou ask most innovators and
entrepreneurs, they will likelyhave a story that goes back to
an origin of.
I was sitting, thinking, talkingwith someone.
(15:35):
I had experienced this thing andthen, you know, I made this
connection between this otherthing, and that's where the idea
sparked the idea was sparked insome space where they had time
to think.
Mm-hmm.
As opposed to being stressed,carrying their phone around
hitting refresh every threeseconds.
Kristen (15:55):
because how many stories start with sitting in a
bar drawing on the back of anapkin, a plan for this product,
company, whatever.
It's when you're having thatface-to-face engagement and
you're not doing anything elsebut just engaging with the
person.
If you take that back to justbeing with yourself and engaging
(16:15):
with yourself.
Couldn't the same thing be saidalmost like having a
conversation with yourself oh,what do I think about this?
Oh, that's an interesting point.
You know, I wonder if that'ssomething that's lost on us too,
because we're so focused onfilling our time with
activities, with sound, withstuff on our phone, with
(16:36):
information.
What if we just sat withourselves and our thoughts?
Caity (16:42):
Yeah.
I was married for a while.
We were together for over adecade, married for just over
eight, and we, we ended upstarting the divorce paper, like
submitting our papers, I thinktwo days before lockdown.
Oh wow.
Before then there's a period,where, you're not sure what life
(17:03):
is going to be like by yourself.
Kristen (17:05):
And on
Caity (17:05):
your own, you know, there's always someone there to
help fill the space, thephysical space, or fill the
conversation space.
You're kind of doing lifetogether.
I remember my girlfriends wereall like, it's gonna be fine.
We'll be your wing woman.
We're gonna take you out.
You won't be alone.
You won't be bored.
And of course, no one couldpredict, but the world had very
(17:26):
different plans and suddenly Iwas very alone.
And all my girlfriends were,isolating in pods where some of
them were pregnant and hadlittle kids and, their parents
and, extended family were movingin and, they were isolating in
very real ways.
After becoming newly singleagain, it was kind of a moment
(17:48):
of truth.
I didn't know if I liked myself.
I didn't really know who I was,yet, and suddenly have a lot of
alone time, a lot of quiet time.
I would put my phone down.
I picked up trail running, whichis something I had never, ever,
ever even been interested indoing before.
(18:08):
And I would go out forincreasingly longer and longer
jobs and hikes with no phone,nothing.
Sometimes I wouldn't even bringa water bottle honestly, I think
being out in nature.
Untethered to electronics is thefinal frontier.
Space is crowded, you know?
Everything is crowded and noisyand messy, but just being out on
(18:29):
a trail at dawn is just magical.
You rediscover all five sensesin a way that you kind of lose
when you have a phone on you.
Kristen (18:40):
So that goes back to your point about touching grass.
Was that kind of your moment tojust get outside and touch
grass?
And how did that, you talkedabout in the moment what it did
for you, but what lastingimpacts has that had by you
being outside and kind of onewith nature to find yourself?
Caity (18:59):
You know what I'm just realizing is I started doing
that because I was bored.
We've come full circle.
I'm so serious.
Yeah.
Like it was, I had nothing elseto do.
You know, for Gump when hedecides to just my life, but you
know what?
(19:20):
It didn't start off running.
I thought I would go for a hikeby myself and girl.
I packed a backpack and enoughstuff like I've never drank two
liters of water before.
I packed two liters.
Yeah.
Just in case even four mileswalk in the woods.
Yeah.
Like I had, you know, probably5,000 calories worth of food on
me.
(19:40):
And just in case, you know,first aid kit.
Yeah.
Like, I just, I didn't know, andit was scary.
I was packing my fears, youknow?
Then I was doing the same hike,more frequently it was every
morning and I was like, oh, likeI think I can get through this
faster.
So it doesn't take as long.
So I started kind of jogging andI was like, like, it's hard to
jog with a heavy backpack, itprogressed and my pack started
(20:02):
getting lighter and I was goingfaster or a little further.
And then over the next coupleyears I started doing trail half
marathons and entering races andcompeting it really kind of
blossomed into this thing thatnever, would've crossed my mind,
but opened up new communitiesand friendships.
(20:23):
I never, ever would havediscovered or had the time and
attention span to foster, had Ibeen glued to my phone sitting
at home.
The pain of same became greaterthan the pain of change in those
early times of COVID.
I was like, f this phone thing.
I can't just sit here.
This is boring and I'm bored.
Kristen (20:45):
Mm-hmm.
Caity (20:45):
that's one example of what came of that boredom.
Kristen (20:48):
I've never thought about that before.
Isn't that crazy?
Yeah, cool.
But I do think that's a greatstory and how the boredom led to
that.
And I think there is benefitsfor other people to put down the
phone and get out too.
I don't know if you've seen,there was, this meme I've seen
on Facebook or Instagram andit's like, we're too old for all
(21:10):
this mean girl crap.
Just go out and touch grass.
It's kind of a trite thing tosay, but I do.
Wonder if all these people whoget all up in their feelings,
and I mean the negativefighting, contentious, mean girl
kind of stuff, if they would puttheir phone down get out of that
mindset and go outside and touchgrass.
(21:33):
Hug a tree, smile at the sun.
Like any of those things, I feellike really could change their
mindset or at least break themental pattern they're in now.
Not that you were a mean girl,but it did break up your
boredom.
Do you think there's benefitsfor people putting down the
(21:53):
phone to get out of those toxicmindsets?
What do you think?
Caity (21:58):
I would certainly hope so.
I would say it's a lot harder toignore reality when you are in
it.
When you are living in thereality, it's hard to not be in
that reality.
Let me rephrase this, turn itaround.
When you're on your phone.
You start to create, and I thinkthis is, studied, these, echo
(22:19):
chambers are created in, in youronline environment and you
suddenly stop becomingchallenged about things that you
believe, when you are out in theworld, out in reality, ideally,
hopefully, we are all constantlychallenged.
Our beliefs based on who we aremeeting and the things that
(22:39):
we're witnessing in the worldhow we're feeling and, our lived
experience.
I've never really understood thehigh praise for, people who
never change.
if we're doing.
Life.
Right?
And if we are living andexperiencing it together, like
the world is changing.
(23:01):
So if we are trying to remainunchanged, I think we're doing
not only ourselves andinjustice, but I think doing the
world a bit of an injustice aswell.
Kristen (23:13):
Well, yes to all of that.
And let me see if I can add on alittle bit too.
To your last point, first aboutthe changing, like yeah, we were
never meant to be stagnant.
Like we should always belearning and growing and doing.
You know, I've talked a coupletimes on the podcast too about.
Learning from your mistakes andfailure and fail early.
(23:36):
Fail off and learn.
Find out what doesn't work.
Try something else, read a book,learn something, and we should
always be change.
Change isn't necessarily good orbad, it's just morphing and
becoming a better version ofyourself.
To your point about echochambers, it's not even just
that people create a false senseof reality because when they're
(23:59):
in those echo chambers, theybelieve that everybody thinks
the way they do.
When they're out in the realworld, it's, earth shattering to
them that how could anybody notthink what I think, I thought
everybody thought the way I do,and that's on.
All sides of the spectrum.
Everybody who puts themselvessurrounded by people who think
just like them can get into thatmindset.
(24:20):
And where we're missing, is thepiece of what the past is where
people would actually gettogether.
And you mentioned earlier aboutdebate, yes, there was debate,
but there was also goodconversation.
Like you picture the two old menon the front porch in their
rocking chairs with their sweettea, talking about whatever's
going on.
You really wanna go back tobusiness piece?
(24:41):
I do.
I'm, it's, it's, I, I, there wasa past lifetime where I was
there and something is pullingme back a hundred percent.
I will have to show you thepictures.
I had a fifties book club partya few years ago, and I totally
looked the part i'm all in.
Please share pictures, I'll forsure.
It's this false sense ofreality.
(25:02):
People were able to haveopinions and share them and
learn.
You can have different opinionsabout anything.
Some people like BackstreetBoys, some people like NSYNC I
use that as a simple example,but you could sit and have a
conversation with somebody like,oh, well, who's your favorite
singer on the Backstreet Boys?
Oh, well I think that Justin isbetter than Brian Latrell.
(25:22):
You can have that conversationand you're not just gonna say,
oh, you like Backstreet Boys,you're dumb.
They're dumb.
Everybody's dumb.
Like instinct's.
The only right one, you wouldnever do that.
Like you would have aconversation with them.
And that's something that's lostbecause we, we.
Not we, you and I are all aboutthis, but there are people who
are not willing to engage inthose conversations and see
(25:44):
another viewpoint and then justget so stuck themselves.
Okay, I'm done rambling.
What else were you gonna say?
Well,
Caity (25:49):
I was gonna say why I really believe that the
smartphone has ruined the art ofdate.
Is because no longer do we haveto use our skills of influence
and our words and pull from ourown deep wells of knowledge and
understanding to make a pointand persuade.
(26:11):
But we like, that's a very lingof what could become a beautiful
debate.
Someone whips stop their phone,they're like, oh, let's just
Google the answer.
So we don't have to pull on ourown internal databases and learn
from each other.
Also practice leadership skills.
(26:33):
And being part of theconversation, being comfortable
with conflict.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, not being inagreement.
I think that's really, reallyimportant as well.
So maybe that's a challenge.
Maybe do we challenge ourselvesfor like the next week or
something to not just Google theanswer right away?
Kristen (26:56):
Yeah, that's totally good.
But you bring up a good point,because.
What's the saying?
Like smartphones are actuallymaking dumb people because it's
almost like there's so muchinformation.
You're right.
You don't have to like, youknow, if you were doing, again,
like the old people and theirnewspaper with the crossword
puzzle and there's like.
(27:16):
What's an eight letter word forwhatever, you know, you could
just Google it now and Googlewill give you like 6,000
different words that could workfor it, or the right answer.
I, I don't know.
But yeah, it's, it's using yourbrain again, the way it was
intended to be, which then wouldadd into that growing and
learning and I don't know.
Caity (27:41):
Do we need to explain the phrase touch grass?
Kristen (27:44):
Yes.
Because in my mind, I literallyjust see myself walking out my
front porch and kneeling in myfront yard and be like.
Oh, that's grass.
So yes, please explain it.
Caity (28:00):
Okay, so, I have, a few dear friends who work with the
youth and they get to pick upall the latest language and
lingo if I'm lucky, they willpass this new knowledge and
information off to me and ourfriends.
There's been quite a surge ofnew words, and I don't, I'm not
(28:23):
staying such fast as a new onebecause for all I know, it could
be three years old and I'm justnow learning about it.
But I really clung onto this oneand I have kind of adopted it
into my own vernacular.
Touch grass.
Yeah, as I understand it, it'sjust, when you've been on your
phone or stepped into, digitalmedia for too long, you gotta
(28:46):
just put it down and go touchgrass, get outside.
Kristen (28:51):
I love that.
And it's funny because I dothink I saw that I also am one
who tries to keep up with thelanguage of the youth because my
son's 12, and so like the middleschool junior high slang is
really big, like six, seven.
I was like, oh, 6, 7, 6, 7, itmeans something.
Seven.
Who, what does it mean?
(29:13):
Who knows?
Before we start our GoogleChallenge, Google it because
it'll make more sense than metrying to explain it.
Caity (29:21):
Wait, if you, okay, one more, maybe two more questions
on this.
Six, seven is six.
Is it six seven together as onething or is six?
One thing and then seven issomething,
Kristen (29:33):
so it's six, seven.
But their hands go up and down,almost like scales, like 6, 7,
6, 7.
Caity (29:41):
These hands go up and down.
Kristen (29:43):
Like I said, just Google this one.
We're
Caity (29:45):
too old for this.
We are too.
I know
Kristen (29:46):
I try to use, we get a free, I dunno.
Caity (29:49):
We challenge ourselves to a week
Kristen (29:52):
minutes.
It doesn't start till we're donerecording.
We can use Google in the presentmoment.
So I just looked up touch grassand how to use it online.
And it says, touch grass isusually an insult.
Used to imply that someonespends too much time on the
internet and they should gooutside into nature to reconnect
with reality.
(30:12):
It's an insult.
Caity (30:14):
I've been using it.
I hope I've not been
Kristen (30:16):
insulting
Caity (30:17):
people.
Kristen (30:18):
The phrase touch grass means to log off the internet
and reconnect with reality.
It's often used as a comeback.
It's online arguments andapplies that the other person is
disconnected from realitybecause of how much time they
spent.
It reminds me of like, okay,boomer,
Caity (30:34):
It was an insult.
Kristen (30:36):
I'm trying to make you feel better that you have not
been insulting all these people.
Caity (30:40):
If there's a bright side in any of this, then maybe it is
simply that the youth, youngpeople.
Young people work
Kristen (30:48):
now.
Yeah, I know.
Caity (30:50):
What,
Kristen (30:50):
what do you call these whipper snapper.
Caity (30:56):
Maybe it's a sign of corrective progress on the
digital front.
Yes.
That they are starting to takenotice and call out their peers.
Kristen (31:06):
Yes.
Caity (31:07):
Now,
Kristen (31:09):
no, I think there's definitely a possibility with
that, because I think.
I had a statistic here somewhereabout the different generations
with their screen time, but Ican't find it right now.
I think there will be a switch.
I'm just speculating, but toyour point, I see some in the
(31:30):
youth and the young people,there are some more connections.
I mean, they have phones andthey're on them, but I don't
know that it's the same way thatolder people do.
I believe that we've seendifferent groups of people, kind
of the pendulum go one way orthe other.
And I do wonder if, becauseearlier I'd said that we've kind
(31:52):
of hit this bubble of socialmedia maybe we are going to
swing the other way where peopledo embrace more real
relationships and reality.
I don't know, maybe that's justmy hopeful wishful thinking.
Caity (32:05):
That's a beautiful, I.
I hope and wish that too in away, you know?
Hmm.
There are two, what's the word?
What is it called?
Well, not a utopia dystopia.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
I've got like two dystopian,kind of like fantasies, I guess.
(32:28):
Mm-hmm.
When I was just daydreaming andI'm like, Hmm.
What catastrophe could actuallyend up having a positive impact
on the world one of them is whatif selectively and successfully
and without other harm, everycommunication satellite was just
(32:48):
taken out.
Yeah.
I'm not wishing this orsuggesting this, I'm just saying
what would happen, suddenly ourphones would not work.
Yeah.
A lot of other things would gooffline too.
And you know, a lot of, medicalthings.
Let's just pretend it onlyaffects wifi or 5G.
You know, for social stuff.
But that could be a reallyinteresting kind of equalizer.
(33:13):
It would
Kristen (33:14):
be.
Caity (33:14):
I think,'cause suddenly it's not,
Kristen (33:16):
I think on a small scale, you see it sometimes if
there's a long power outage.
Because so much stuff is doneelectronically.
It's your TVs, it's your phones,eventually they're gonna run
out.
So I think an extended poweroutage may do something like
that too.
When we've even seen it, youknow, the power's out at home.
(33:37):
Well what are we gonna do?
We can't watch tv.
Oh, we can't do this, so wecan't do that.
I think that's kinda because Ido believe that.
For society, to change, therewould have to be something big
that almost forces away thetechnology so that people don't
have that avenue and they areforced outside to touch grass.
(34:01):
Yeah.
Or just to find other ways likeplaying board games again or
going for a run with a friend Ido think it's possible, but you
know, Katie, it may not take aworld tragedy.
We talked about engaging in ourown community and change starts
with one.
So maybe it just takes a few ofus and our listeners being bold
(34:25):
and stepping out and saying,Hey, I'm gonna.
Go phone free for X amount ofminutes, days, weeks, months,
years, engage in my real lifeagain.
Caity (34:37):
Yes.
And, to be clear, I feel like I,I really, took it, took it hard
right.
Turn there with like the, youknow, way to get there.
But I think the way you describeis more of a.
Sustained meaningful culturalshift.
And a choice taken by people asopposed to being forced into it.
(35:00):
As history shows, if we cancollectively make better
decisions about connecting andcommunity, it's more likely to
have lasting real impact.
Kristen (35:14):
Yes.
That's what we need to do.
We all need to just.
Bond together and say goodbye toour digital world, you know?
Have you seen the movie?
Or read the book Ready PlayerOne?
Caity (35:29):
No.
Kristen (35:30):
Okay.
Have you seen Avatar?
Caity (35:33):
Oh, one of them.
Kristen (35:35):
I didn't see the second one either.
Caity (35:36):
Okay.
I think you'll be
Kristen (35:37):
fine.
Caity (35:38):
it's nothing against movies.
I'm sure they're wonderful.
I just, fall asleep as soon asmovies come on.
It's really bad.
Kristen (35:44):
Oh, same.
It happens.
And the old reason I bring upReady Player one is because,
it's kind of like this virtualreality.
Like there's people and in theirhomes they put on the headset or
whatever, and they're in thisvirtual reality where they have
another character so they can besomeone else, and they're
involved in this whole otherworld, and it's neither good nor
(36:06):
bad.
It's just how it is.
Like it's in the future.
It's what the world becomes.
I feel like that's kind of whatwe're in now, is that we have
our online personas and we areengaged in these digital worlds
so much that we aren't fullyengaged in our real world.
And even at the beginning of theepisode I mentioned that, we see
people at restaurants sitting inthe booths with their family.
(36:27):
Everybody's on their phone,nobody's engaging with each
other.
And so I think that as asociety, we need to try to break
free of the.
Chains that bind us to thisdigital world that feels like
reality and actually, you know,take off our headsets and put
(36:48):
down the phones and look aroundand see what's actually in the
reality around us.
So many people think reality isbad and the world is bad because
of what they see in theirdigital worlds, and if they
would just take the time to lookat it with open eyes, open
hearts, open minds, they wouldsee that the real world is
actually amazing and there'swonderful people around them
that they could engage with andget to know and learn and grow
(37:11):
and make a difference if theywould all just get outside and
touch grass.
Caity (37:16):
Yes.
Touch grass.
Kristen (37:20):
Touch grass, that's all it is.
Touch grass.
In a really positive way, in themost wholesome way, like, just
touch the grass, or if it'sfall, touch the leaves.
Or if it's winter, touch thesnow.
Like, just touch somethingoutside without your phone
Caity (37:39):
If it's a person, just ask for permission first to do
consent.
Touch a dog.
Dogs are great.
I feel like you know your dogsare happy when they're being
pet.
If you can find a baby
Kristen (37:51):
Baby goats are lovely to pet.
We had, yeah, there was apetting zoo recently at event I
was at, I need a, I need a babygoat now.
Caity (37:58):
That's very specific.
I love that.
Kristen (38:00):
Anyway, before we get too far off Katie, thank you so
much for coming again.
Any final thoughts you'd like toshare with the listeners?
Caity (38:08):
This was so much fun.
I, too many more thoughts.
We'll have to save it foranother time.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with me.
Kristen (38:17):
Yes, and we will definitely do this again'cause
like you said, so many morethoughts to share.
All right.
Till next time, bye
Caity (38:26):
bye.
Kristen (38:28):
That's a wrap for this week's episode.
Thanks so much for spending timewith me.
Until next time, be honest withyourself.
Ask the hard questions, andremember, you are not alone on
this journey.
Welcome to season two of Talk with Kristen with an E.
This season, we're digging alittle deeper into leadership,
personal growth, and the courageit takes to follow your passion.
Real conversations, honestreflections, because life isn't
perfect and neither are we.
(00:27):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back.
So excited for today's episodebecause we have back one of my
favorite guests.
Guess who's here?
It's Katie.
Hi Katie.
Hello, Kristen.
It is so good to be back.
How are you?
I am doing great and I amthrilled that you're here again.
(00:47):
We had so much fun last time andI know the topic today is going
to be probably just as good.
I can't wait.
So today we're talking about,touching grass and boredom,
which doesn't sound fun when youtalk about like boredom or just
touching grass.
But I think we're gonna get intoa lot more of what that actually
(01:10):
means.
So let's start with the boredompart.
So Katie, do you remember thelast time you were truly bored?
Caity (01:19):
I don't remember the last time I was truly bored.
I don't know if this is a signof just getting older or maybe
that I'm overcommitting myselfor not carving out time to be
bored, but, I am constantlystressed out,
Kristen (01:36):
and I think it depends who has time.
Yeah.
Who has time to just sit and bebored?
When I think of bored, Iremember being a child at home
and being like, mom, I am bored.
And my mom would be like, ifyou're bored, I'll give you
something to do.
Like you can go clean this, dothis, so you never actually
wanted to say you were boredbecause then you were like, can
(01:57):
I get something terrible to do?
But I've thought about it.
Like as an adult.
And I started looking at peopletoo when I'm out.
Even just standing in line at agrocery store or sitting at a
restaurant you look around,there are so many people on
their phones that nobody iswilling to just sit there so
when you think about though,like.
(02:19):
Maybe.
Maybe we have to define boredomfirst because I think sometimes
we just avoid boredom to be busyand we'll scroll or pull out our
phones and we're not givingourselves time to have that kind
of quiet time or space to think,if you're like me, you don't
want to hear your own thoughtsbecause then it builds up
(02:40):
anxiety and irrational fears andthings you'd rather not think
about.
Thoughts on that?
Caity (02:48):
I feel like you just saw inside of my soul.
Let me, explain a little bit somuch truth to what you just
outlined.
I'll go back to your very firstquestion, which was when was the
last time I was bored?
I think I've not allowed myselfto be bored because of my phone.
It's always in my hand.
(03:09):
It's on my nightstand while Isleep, when I wake up, I look at
my phone.
Kristen (03:14):
Mm-hmm.
Caity (03:15):
I'm already checking work emails before I have registered
what time it was or.
Even sat up or rubbed my eyes,you know?
Kristen (03:23):
Like I still have to pee super bad, and there I am
laying in my bed seeing what'snew on Facebook.
Caity (03:29):
Bringing it into the bathroom.
That was just somewhat recent,like epiphany or realization of
like, oh, this is a problem.
This is no bueno.
This is real bad.
Kristen (03:41):
Would you say your phone is more a security blanket
or an emotional support animaland why?
Caity (03:50):
I think I want to think of it as a support thing, but it
is probably the genesis of myanxiety.
If I'm being honest, it'sprobably the source of a lot of
my anxiety, but there's thisaddiction aspect to it, news is
moving at an unprecedented rate.
(04:14):
Every day.
It's like, how can we outdoourselves from yesterday and
there's some level of addictionand breaking news, and now we
have news apps and pushnotifications my phone is also
my work device working on thephone.
I've got work emails on myphone.
(04:35):
It's, it's my everything app.
I think the phone is room somuch, including the art of
debate.
Maybe that can be a whole otherconversation.
Kristen (04:45):
So, oh, now I forgot my question.
It was gonna be a good one too.
Okay.
So no, I wanna stick onsomething else that you just
said though about your phonebeing the cause of your anxiety.
So I see your point.
I understand that.
But do you also have anxiety ifyour phone isn't with you?
Caity (05:06):
I think I do before I put it down, but once I put it down,
I don't miss it.
I don't think about it.
This is not a new thing for me.
Since I've got a phone in, whatwas that
Kristen (05:18):
That's when I got mine, my freshman year.
Caity (05:21):
Yeah.
Kristen (05:22):
It wasn't a smartphone, right?
No, it was a Nokia that I wasable to change the cover on.
I put my Strawberry shortcake,or my Care Bear's cover.
Oh yeah.
I had the old phone.
Cricket was my provider, and Ionly had voice calls because
voicemail and text messagingwere all extra.
And since I was paying my owncell phone bill, I didn't add
any of the extras.
I didn't have caller id.
(05:42):
It was literally just four phonecalls.
Oh, yes, yes.
Which is, which is so crazy nowbecause have you seen the meme
that's like as a millennial,send me a text, send me an
email, send me like all thesethings, and it's like, send me
carrier pigeons, send me smokesignals, and all the way at the
bottom it's like, call me.
Like, don't ever call me.
Caity (06:04):
Or heaven forbid, you know, if you do call me, do not
leave me a voicemail because I'mnot.
Kristen (06:08):
Yeah.
Because then I'm gonna getanxiety.
The voicemails are all gonna addup, and I'm gonna see that I
have six voicemails and I'm notgonna wanna listen to any of
them.
It was such a great thing wheniPhone added that.
You can see the text for whatthe voicemail says, because
voicemails give me anxiety too.
I don't wanna deal with it.
I'm an avoider in so many ways.
(06:28):
The reason I asked if beingwithout your phone gave you
anxiety is because I feel like Ido now, not during the day.
I work in a job where I can'thave my phone with me.
It, you stay in my car, go intoa lockbox, so I'm without my
phone a lot, but when I'm athome and if I don't have my
phone, I feel a little bit.
Where's my phone?
Where did I put it?
What if somebody needs me?
(06:49):
And I worry about that.
It's crazy because when we wereyounger, we didn't have phones
with us all the time.
If something happened, youwouldn't find out about it till
you got home.
And if there was a message onthe answering machine but I am
so worried now, even if I'm at amovie and have my phone on
silent, I'm like, oh my gosh.
What if someone needs me?
What if someone dies?
What if somebody has to call meand I can't answer my phone?
Like I said, I am full ofanxieties and irrational fears
(07:11):
on so many levels,
Caity (07:13):
and you know what?
I hear you and see you on that,but you, had a list of
alternatives or, ways of,contacting each other.
Yeah.
And you mentioned carrierpigeons and we laugh and joke
but that was a real thing.
There was a day where you didn'thear until, some dude on a horse
ran.
Yeah.
The Pony Express to another.
Kristen (07:36):
Yes.
Caity (07:36):
You're right.
Yeah, they were okay.
I mean they might have hadtyphoid fever or something.
But you know, socially they weremaybe less anxious than we are
now.
Kristen (07:47):
You're right.
There was that age where nothinghappened and now we're in this
over influenced, over informedand that probably is causing a
lot of our anxiety.
Caity (08:01):
And I think a lot of it, you used the word over and form
and I think that's reallyimportant because there's this
point of diminishing return.
A lot of it has to do withinformation that affects us in a
real tangible way.
'cause you know, a lot ofthings, we like, I mean these
ear bunny ear quotes likeaffects us.
But if we didn't know about it,we wouldn't know it's affecting
(08:23):
us.
Right.
Like going back to the point ofdiminishing return.
If we consume and seekinformation and news that
directly affect our community,ourselves, our neighbors.
And we have some control.
(08:44):
We can, bring a casserole orwatch their kids while they have
to go to a doctor's appointmentor something like that.
We feel more in control and itbrings our anxiety down.
But when we surpass that pointof what we can and cannot affect
any control or impact over.
All of that excess is, whatbrings so much of the anxiety
(09:08):
because it feels important.
But it is, nearly impossible asan individual or even, a small
collection of people to actuallydo something about it where it's
affecting someone somewhereelse, which is important.
And I think that we all need tobe aware.
Especially of injustices and,things happening around the
world, outside of our immediatecommunities.
(09:29):
But I think the amount of spacethat has taken has compressed
and made smaller.
The space that we have for whatwe can control.
Kristen (09:41):
Hundred percent.
It's the control.
There's all these things goingon that we have no control over
and it's, you know, that I thinkdoes create some of the anxiety
and then the uncomfortablefeeling because there's nothing
we can do about it.
Like there's things we can doabout it, but not on that grand
macro scale.
Like you said, we can do more onthe micro level of within what's
(10:03):
within our scope or within ourrealm of where we can affect
change and control, what we cancontrol.
Caity (10:12):
In the beginning of our conversation, you asked about
boredom and I didn't have a verygood answer, but now that we're
talking I remember very.
Fondly honestly, being a kid wewould drive from central
Florida, pack into a littlewhite caravan and drive up to
northwestern buffalo, like.
(10:35):
Western New York.
Upstate
Kristen (10:37):
New York as we
Caity (10:37):
Well if you call it upstate, then like the Albany
people get angry.
Oh, okay.
It's like this weird, you know,kind of thing.
It was a very long car ride andthe only thing that we had to
entertain us was, maybe like twoor three cassette tapes of the
Beatles.
We would play it until it endedand then we would take the tape
(10:59):
out, flip it over, put it backin and play the other side of
it.
And we would sit there and singThe Beatles for, you know, how
many days it took us to drivefrom Florida to New York.
At some point everyone gets sickof the Beatles and you turn it
off for a little while.
You're a kid buckled into aseat, you cannot move, and it's
(11:24):
silent and you're just staringout the window and you're either
talking or poking, the siblingnext to you.
Or you're looking out thewindow.
And in an interesting way, thatwas my first glimpse at the
world.
Mm-hmm.
Because we, you know, bigfamily, we didn't travel a lot
(11:44):
for the sake of traveling andexploring new places.
Both of, my parents were fromNew York.
We were living in Florida, so alot of our free time for travel
was.
Just a straight shot, not reallystopping to see the sites, it
allowed so many hours, patienthours, uninterrupted hours to
(12:05):
just think about what I'mseeing.
If it's dark out, you know, thenyou're really inside of your
head and those were suchprecious hours.
For me.
Kristen (12:15):
It's funny how alike we are because we'd have to compare
the mileage.
Your trip was probably stilllonger, but my story is almost
exactly the same.
We were living in southwesternPennsylvania, but both of my
parents were from the Bostonarea.
So every summer vacation.
We would go up to New England Ihad family in Massachusetts.
(12:36):
I had family in New Hampshire.
We had family in Maine, so wewould do the whole thing.
And, it was the same thing.
We had, we had more than one or,or two tapes.
'cause my dad had this wholelike, well, you know, we had CD
books when we were older, like,had our own cars.
My dad had a tape book with allthese different tapes.
So we would get to pick tapesand listen to the music.
(12:57):
Sometimes we would play gameslike, I'm going on a trip and
I'm bringing an apple.
I'm going on a trip and I'mbringing an apple and a banana,
and you'd go through the wholealphabet and just around through
everybody.
That was my favorite game.
I also believe it really helpedall my memory skills and
learning, but you're right.
There would be sometimes whereyou'd have to be quiet and I
would just stare out the window,and you're right.
(13:17):
Seeing the sights nighttime wasthe best'cause you could see the
stars and the moon and it waslike, you could pretend you were
anywhere.
I would daydream and imaginethings.
Write stories in my head.
I would read too until I getsick because I didn't, I wasn't
really good reading while in thecar, but you are right.
And I never thought of that asboredom really.
(13:38):
'cause I think boredom has somany connotations, but that was
more just open time.
I think that's what we don't donow as adults is we don't allow
ourselves that time.
And part of it, is because.
Society, you know, it's this go,go, go grind, you've gotta do
the things and be the things Ithink we feel like we always
(14:01):
have to be doing somethingbecause I know there's times
where if I wanna just sit, firstof all, just sitting feels
weird.
I will usually still put the TVon or music but if I do just
sit, I'm like, okay, but Ishould be doing something like
this.
Doesn't feel right to just besitting here like, I'm wasting
time.
I'm not getting things done.
But that's part of the relaxingand resetting and dealing with
(14:24):
our anxiety to just sit.
What do you think about justsitting though,
Caity (14:30):
oh my gosh, you know what that makes me think about?
Wow.
For me, it makes me think abouthow focused we are going back to
the society, especially the us,how focused we are on
productivity.
Also how we measure and valuecertain kinds of productivity
and output.
(14:51):
And I think in a lot of waysit's set up to reward a certain
kind of output because there'snot a clear standard currency to
creative output.
Creative output the same that wedo a more kinda standard
(15:13):
economic, you know, crunch somenumbers, something comes out the
other end of the machine kind ofkind of output.
I think it's important and ifyou ask most innovators and
entrepreneurs, they will likelyhave a story that goes back to
an origin of.
I was sitting, thinking, talkingwith someone.
(15:35):
I had experienced this thing andthen, you know, I made this
connection between this otherthing, and that's where the idea
sparked the idea was sparked insome space where they had time
to think.
Mm-hmm.
As opposed to being stressed,carrying their phone around
hitting refresh every threeseconds.
Kristen (15:55):
because how many stories start with sitting in a
bar drawing on the back of anapkin, a plan for this product,
company, whatever.
It's when you're having thatface-to-face engagement and
you're not doing anything elsebut just engaging with the
person.
If you take that back to justbeing with yourself and engaging
(16:15):
with yourself.
Couldn't the same thing be saidalmost like having a
conversation with yourself oh,what do I think about this?
Oh, that's an interesting point.
You know, I wonder if that'ssomething that's lost on us too,
because we're so focused onfilling our time with
activities, with sound, withstuff on our phone, with
(16:36):
information.
What if we just sat withourselves and our thoughts?
Caity (16:42):
Yeah.
I was married for a while.
We were together for over adecade, married for just over
eight, and we, we ended upstarting the divorce paper, like
submitting our papers, I thinktwo days before lockdown.
Oh wow.
Before then there's a period,where, you're not sure what life
(17:03):
is going to be like by yourself.
Kristen (17:05):
And on
Caity (17:05):
your own, you know, there's always someone there to
help fill the space, thephysical space, or fill the
conversation space.
You're kind of doing lifetogether.
I remember my girlfriends wereall like, it's gonna be fine.
We'll be your wing woman.
We're gonna take you out.
You won't be alone.
You won't be bored.
And of course, no one couldpredict, but the world had very
(17:26):
different plans and suddenly Iwas very alone.
And all my girlfriends were,isolating in pods where some of
them were pregnant and hadlittle kids and, their parents
and, extended family were movingin and, they were isolating in
very real ways.
After becoming newly singleagain, it was kind of a moment
(17:48):
of truth.
I didn't know if I liked myself.
I didn't really know who I was,yet, and suddenly have a lot of
alone time, a lot of quiet time.
I would put my phone down.
I picked up trail running, whichis something I had never, ever,
ever even been interested indoing before.
(18:08):
And I would go out forincreasingly longer and longer
jobs and hikes with no phone,nothing.
Sometimes I wouldn't even bringa water bottle honestly, I think
being out in nature.
Untethered to electronics is thefinal frontier.
Space is crowded, you know?
Everything is crowded and noisyand messy, but just being out on
(18:29):
a trail at dawn is just magical.
You rediscover all five sensesin a way that you kind of lose
when you have a phone on you.
Kristen (18:40):
So that goes back to your point about touching grass.
Was that kind of your moment tojust get outside and touch
grass?
And how did that, you talkedabout in the moment what it did
for you, but what lastingimpacts has that had by you
being outside and kind of onewith nature to find yourself?
Caity (18:59):
You know what I'm just realizing is I started doing
that because I was bored.
We've come full circle.
I'm so serious.
Yeah.
Like it was, I had nothing elseto do.
You know, for Gump when hedecides to just my life, but you
know what?
(19:20):
It didn't start off running.
I thought I would go for a hikeby myself and girl.
I packed a backpack and enoughstuff like I've never drank two
liters of water before.
I packed two liters.
Yeah.
Just in case even four mileswalk in the woods.
Yeah.
Like I had, you know, probably5,000 calories worth of food on
me.
(19:40):
And just in case, you know,first aid kit.
Yeah.
Like, I just, I didn't know, andit was scary.
I was packing my fears, youknow?
Then I was doing the same hike,more frequently it was every
morning and I was like, oh, likeI think I can get through this
faster.
So it doesn't take as long.
So I started kind of jogging andI was like, like, it's hard to
jog with a heavy backpack, itprogressed and my pack started
(20:02):
getting lighter and I was goingfaster or a little further.
And then over the next coupleyears I started doing trail half
marathons and entering races andcompeting it really kind of
blossomed into this thing thatnever, would've crossed my mind,
but opened up new communitiesand friendships.
(20:23):
I never, ever would havediscovered or had the time and
attention span to foster, had Ibeen glued to my phone sitting
at home.
The pain of same became greaterthan the pain of change in those
early times of COVID.
I was like, f this phone thing.
I can't just sit here.
This is boring and I'm bored.
Kristen (20:45):
Mm-hmm.
Caity (20:45):
that's one example of what came of that boredom.
Kristen (20:48):
I've never thought about that before.
Isn't that crazy?
Yeah, cool.
But I do think that's a greatstory and how the boredom led to
that.
And I think there is benefitsfor other people to put down the
phone and get out too.
I don't know if you've seen,there was, this meme I've seen
on Facebook or Instagram andit's like, we're too old for all
(21:10):
this mean girl crap.
Just go out and touch grass.
It's kind of a trite thing tosay, but I do.
Wonder if all these people whoget all up in their feelings,
and I mean the negativefighting, contentious, mean girl
kind of stuff, if they would puttheir phone down get out of that
mindset and go outside and touchgrass.
(21:33):
Hug a tree, smile at the sun.
Like any of those things, I feellike really could change their
mindset or at least break themental pattern they're in now.
Not that you were a mean girl,but it did break up your
boredom.
Do you think there's benefitsfor people putting down the
(21:53):
phone to get out of those toxicmindsets?
What do you think?
Caity (21:58):
I would certainly hope so.
I would say it's a lot harder toignore reality when you are in
it.
When you are living in thereality, it's hard to not be in
that reality.
Let me rephrase this, turn itaround.
When you're on your phone.
You start to create, and I thinkthis is, studied, these, echo
(22:19):
chambers are created in, in youronline environment and you
suddenly stop becomingchallenged about things that you
believe, when you are out in theworld, out in reality, ideally,
hopefully, we are all constantlychallenged.
Our beliefs based on who we aremeeting and the things that
(22:39):
we're witnessing in the worldhow we're feeling and, our lived
experience.
I've never really understood thehigh praise for, people who
never change.
if we're doing.
Life.
Right?
And if we are living andexperiencing it together, like
the world is changing.
(23:01):
So if we are trying to remainunchanged, I think we're doing
not only ourselves andinjustice, but I think doing the
world a bit of an injustice aswell.
Kristen (23:13):
Well, yes to all of that.
And let me see if I can add on alittle bit too.
To your last point, first aboutthe changing, like yeah, we were
never meant to be stagnant.
Like we should always belearning and growing and doing.
You know, I've talked a coupletimes on the podcast too about.
Learning from your mistakes andfailure and fail early.
(23:36):
Fail off and learn.
Find out what doesn't work.
Try something else, read a book,learn something, and we should
always be change.
Change isn't necessarily good orbad, it's just morphing and
becoming a better version ofyourself.
To your point about echochambers, it's not even just
that people create a false senseof reality because when they're
(23:59):
in those echo chambers, theybelieve that everybody thinks
the way they do.
When they're out in the realworld, it's, earth shattering to
them that how could anybody notthink what I think, I thought
everybody thought the way I do,and that's on.
All sides of the spectrum.
Everybody who puts themselvessurrounded by people who think
just like them can get into thatmindset.
(24:20):
And where we're missing, is thepiece of what the past is where
people would actually gettogether.
And you mentioned earlier aboutdebate, yes, there was debate,
but there was also goodconversation.
Like you picture the two old menon the front porch in their
rocking chairs with their sweettea, talking about whatever's
going on.
You really wanna go back tobusiness piece?
(24:41):
I do.
I'm, it's, it's, I, I, there wasa past lifetime where I was
there and something is pullingme back a hundred percent.
I will have to show you thepictures.
I had a fifties book club partya few years ago, and I totally
looked the part i'm all in.
Please share pictures, I'll forsure.
It's this false sense ofreality.
(25:02):
People were able to haveopinions and share them and
learn.
You can have different opinionsabout anything.
Some people like BackstreetBoys, some people like NSYNC I
use that as a simple example,but you could sit and have a
conversation with somebody like,oh, well, who's your favorite
singer on the Backstreet Boys?
Oh, well I think that Justin isbetter than Brian Latrell.
(25:22):
You can have that conversationand you're not just gonna say,
oh, you like Backstreet Boys,you're dumb.
They're dumb.
Everybody's dumb.
Like instinct's.
The only right one, you wouldnever do that.
Like you would have aconversation with them.
And that's something that's lostbecause we, we.
Not we, you and I are all aboutthis, but there are people who
are not willing to engage inthose conversations and see
(25:44):
another viewpoint and then justget so stuck themselves.
Okay, I'm done rambling.
What else were you gonna say?
Well,
Caity (25:49):
I was gonna say why I really believe that the
smartphone has ruined the art ofdate.
Is because no longer do we haveto use our skills of influence
and our words and pull from ourown deep wells of knowledge and
understanding to make a pointand persuade.
(26:11):
But we like, that's a very lingof what could become a beautiful
debate.
Someone whips stop their phone,they're like, oh, let's just
Google the answer.
So we don't have to pull on ourown internal databases and learn
from each other.
Also practice leadership skills.
(26:33):
And being part of theconversation, being comfortable
with conflict.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, not being inagreement.
I think that's really, reallyimportant as well.
So maybe that's a challenge.
Maybe do we challenge ourselvesfor like the next week or
something to not just Google theanswer right away?
Kristen (26:56):
Yeah, that's totally good.
But you bring up a good point,because.
What's the saying?
Like smartphones are actuallymaking dumb people because it's
almost like there's so muchinformation.
You're right.
You don't have to like, youknow, if you were doing, again,
like the old people and theirnewspaper with the crossword
puzzle and there's like.
(27:16):
What's an eight letter word forwhatever, you know, you could
just Google it now and Googlewill give you like 6,000
different words that could workfor it, or the right answer.
I, I don't know.
But yeah, it's, it's using yourbrain again, the way it was
intended to be, which then wouldadd into that growing and
learning and I don't know.
Caity (27:41):
Do we need to explain the phrase touch grass?
Kristen (27:44):
Yes.
Because in my mind, I literallyjust see myself walking out my
front porch and kneeling in myfront yard and be like.
Oh, that's grass.
So yes, please explain it.
Caity (28:00):
Okay, so, I have, a few dear friends who work with the
youth and they get to pick upall the latest language and
lingo if I'm lucky, they willpass this new knowledge and
information off to me and ourfriends.
There's been quite a surge ofnew words, and I don't, I'm not
(28:23):
staying such fast as a new onebecause for all I know, it could
be three years old and I'm justnow learning about it.
But I really clung onto this oneand I have kind of adopted it
into my own vernacular.
Touch grass.
Yeah, as I understand it, it'sjust, when you've been on your
phone or stepped into, digitalmedia for too long, you gotta
(28:46):
just put it down and go touchgrass, get outside.
Kristen (28:51):
I love that.
And it's funny because I dothink I saw that I also am one
who tries to keep up with thelanguage of the youth because my
son's 12, and so like the middleschool junior high slang is
really big, like six, seven.
I was like, oh, 6, 7, 6, 7, itmeans something.
Seven.
Who, what does it mean?
(29:13):
Who knows?
Before we start our GoogleChallenge, Google it because
it'll make more sense than metrying to explain it.
Caity (29:21):
Wait, if you, okay, one more, maybe two more questions
on this.
Six, seven is six.
Is it six seven together as onething or is six?
One thing and then seven issomething,
Kristen (29:33):
so it's six, seven.
But their hands go up and down,almost like scales, like 6, 7,
6, 7.
Caity (29:41):
These hands go up and down.
Kristen (29:43):
Like I said, just Google this one.
We're
Caity (29:45):
too old for this.
We are too.
I know
Kristen (29:46):
I try to use, we get a free, I dunno.
Caity (29:49):
We challenge ourselves to a week
Kristen (29:52):
minutes.
It doesn't start till we're donerecording.
We can use Google in the presentmoment.
So I just looked up touch grassand how to use it online.
And it says, touch grass isusually an insult.
Used to imply that someonespends too much time on the
internet and they should gooutside into nature to reconnect
with reality.
(30:12):
It's an insult.
Caity (30:14):
I've been using it.
I hope I've not been
Kristen (30:16):
insulting
Caity (30:17):
people.
Kristen (30:18):
The phrase touch grass means to log off the internet
and reconnect with reality.
It's often used as a comeback.
It's online arguments andapplies that the other person is
disconnected from realitybecause of how much time they
spent.
It reminds me of like, okay,boomer,
Caity (30:34):
It was an insult.
Kristen (30:36):
I'm trying to make you feel better that you have not
been insulting all these people.
Caity (30:40):
If there's a bright side in any of this, then maybe it is
simply that the youth, youngpeople.
Young people work
Kristen (30:48):
now.
Yeah, I know.
Caity (30:50):
What,
Kristen (30:50):
what do you call these whipper snapper.
Caity (30:56):
Maybe it's a sign of corrective progress on the
digital front.
Yes.
That they are starting to takenotice and call out their peers.
Kristen (31:06):
Yes.
Caity (31:07):
Now,
Kristen (31:09):
no, I think there's definitely a possibility with
that, because I think.
I had a statistic here somewhereabout the different generations
with their screen time, but Ican't find it right now.
I think there will be a switch.
I'm just speculating, but toyour point, I see some in the
(31:30):
youth and the young people,there are some more connections.
I mean, they have phones andthey're on them, but I don't
know that it's the same way thatolder people do.
I believe that we've seendifferent groups of people, kind
of the pendulum go one way orthe other.
And I do wonder if, becauseearlier I'd said that we've kind
(31:52):
of hit this bubble of socialmedia maybe we are going to
swing the other way where peopledo embrace more real
relationships and reality.
I don't know, maybe that's justmy hopeful wishful thinking.
Caity (32:05):
That's a beautiful, I.
I hope and wish that too in away, you know?
Hmm.
There are two, what's the word?
What is it called?
Well, not a utopia dystopia.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
I've got like two dystopian,kind of like fantasies, I guess.
(32:28):
Mm-hmm.
When I was just daydreaming andI'm like, Hmm.
What catastrophe could actuallyend up having a positive impact
on the world one of them is whatif selectively and successfully
and without other harm, everycommunication satellite was just
(32:48):
taken out.
Yeah.
I'm not wishing this orsuggesting this, I'm just saying
what would happen, suddenly ourphones would not work.
Yeah.
A lot of other things would gooffline too.
And you know, a lot of, medicalthings.
Let's just pretend it onlyaffects wifi or 5G.
You know, for social stuff.
But that could be a reallyinteresting kind of equalizer.
(33:13):
It would
Kristen (33:14):
be.
Caity (33:14):
I think,'cause suddenly it's not,
Kristen (33:16):
I think on a small scale, you see it sometimes if
there's a long power outage.
Because so much stuff is doneelectronically.
It's your TVs, it's your phones,eventually they're gonna run
out.
So I think an extended poweroutage may do something like
that too.
When we've even seen it, youknow, the power's out at home.
(33:37):
Well what are we gonna do?
We can't watch tv.
Oh, we can't do this, so wecan't do that.
I think that's kinda because Ido believe that.
For society, to change, therewould have to be something big
that almost forces away thetechnology so that people don't
have that avenue and they areforced outside to touch grass.
(34:01):
Yeah.
Or just to find other ways likeplaying board games again or
going for a run with a friend Ido think it's possible, but you
know, Katie, it may not take aworld tragedy.
We talked about engaging in ourown community and change starts
with one.
So maybe it just takes a few ofus and our listeners being bold
(34:25):
and stepping out and saying,Hey, I'm gonna.
Go phone free for X amount ofminutes, days, weeks, months,
years, engage in my real lifeagain.
Caity (34:37):
Yes.
And, to be clear, I feel like I,I really, took it, took it hard
right.
Turn there with like the, youknow, way to get there.
But I think the way you describeis more of a.
Sustained meaningful culturalshift.
And a choice taken by people asopposed to being forced into it.
(35:00):
As history shows, if we cancollectively make better
decisions about connecting andcommunity, it's more likely to
have lasting real impact.
Kristen (35:14):
Yes.
That's what we need to do.
We all need to just.
Bond together and say goodbye toour digital world, you know?
Have you seen the movie?
Or read the book Ready PlayerOne?
Caity (35:29):
No.
Kristen (35:30):
Okay.
Have you seen Avatar?
Caity (35:33):
Oh, one of them.
Kristen (35:35):
I didn't see the second one either.
Caity (35:36):
Okay.
I think you'll be
Kristen (35:37):
fine.
Caity (35:38):
it's nothing against movies.
I'm sure they're wonderful.
I just, fall asleep as soon asmovies come on.
It's really bad.
Kristen (35:44):
Oh, same.
It happens.
And the old reason I bring upReady Player one is because,
it's kind of like this virtualreality.
Like there's people and in theirhomes they put on the headset or
whatever, and they're in thisvirtual reality where they have
another character so they can besomeone else, and they're
involved in this whole otherworld, and it's neither good nor
(36:06):
bad.
It's just how it is.
Like it's in the future.
It's what the world becomes.
I feel like that's kind of whatwe're in now, is that we have
our online personas and we areengaged in these digital worlds
so much that we aren't fullyengaged in our real world.
And even at the beginning of theepisode I mentioned that, we see
people at restaurants sitting inthe booths with their family.
(36:27):
Everybody's on their phone,nobody's engaging with each
other.
And so I think that as asociety, we need to try to break
free of the.
Chains that bind us to thisdigital world that feels like
reality and actually, you know,take off our headsets and put
(36:48):
down the phones and look aroundand see what's actually in the
reality around us.
So many people think reality isbad and the world is bad because
of what they see in theirdigital worlds, and if they
would just take the time to lookat it with open eyes, open
hearts, open minds, they wouldsee that the real world is
actually amazing and there'swonderful people around them
that they could engage with andget to know and learn and grow
(37:11):
and make a difference if theywould all just get outside and
touch grass.
Caity (37:16):
Yes.
Touch grass.
Kristen (37:20):
Touch grass, that's all it is.
Touch grass.
In a really positive way, in themost wholesome way, like, just
touch the grass, or if it'sfall, touch the leaves.
Or if it's winter, touch thesnow.
Like, just touch somethingoutside without your phone
Caity (37:39):
If it's a person, just ask for permission first to do
consent.
Touch a dog.
Dogs are great.
I feel like you know your dogsare happy when they're being
pet.
If you can find a baby
Kristen (37:51):
Baby goats are lovely to pet.
We had, yeah, there was apetting zoo recently at event I
was at, I need a, I need a babygoat now.
Caity (37:58):
That's very specific.
I love that.
Kristen (38:00):
Anyway, before we get too far off Katie, thank you so
much for coming again.
Any final thoughts you'd like toshare with the listeners?
Caity (38:08):
This was so much fun.
I, too many more thoughts.
We'll have to save it foranother time.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with me.
Kristen (38:17):
Yes, and we will definitely do this again'cause
like you said, so many morethoughts to share.
All right.
Till next time, bye
Caity (38:26):
bye.
Kristen (38:28):
That's a wrap for this week's episode.
Thanks so much for spending timewith me.
Until next time, be honest withyourself.
Ask the hard questions, andremember, you are not alone on
this journey.
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