August 8, 2025 • 40 mins
In today's digital age, the way information is disseminated and consumed has drastically changed. Ellen McCarthy, the former assistant secretary of state for intelligence and research, shares her insights on the current media landscape and the importance of trust in information. In this episode, she shares her journey from the intelligence community to founding Trust in Media, an organization dedicated to empowering individuals to demand quality information.
Her experience in intelligence taught her the importance of providing decision advantage, a concept that parallels the role of journalists in delivering information that helps people make informed choices.
Ellen emphasizes that trust is crucial in leadership and decision-making. During her time in the intelligence community, the information provided was trusted because it was based on solid sources and verified techniques. However, this trust has diminished over the years, largely due to the overwhelming amount of data available today.
In a world where misinformation is more abundant, leaders must be able to trust the information they receive to make sound decisions. Ellen points out that the rise of AI and the proliferation of unreliable news sources have further complicated this issue, making it challenging for individuals to determine what is real and what is not.
After leaving government service, Ellen decided to pivot into the nonprofit sector by founding Trust in Media. This organization aims to empower individuals to navigate the complex information ecosystem by providing tools and resources to identify quality information. Ellen acknowledges that starting a nonprofit has been one of the hardest challenges she has faced, requiring her to adapt to a new environment and establish effective processes.
Rebuilding trust in media starts at the local level. She highlights the importance of local businesses and community leaders in fostering trust, as people are more likely to trust those they know personally. However, with the decline of local news sources, communities are becoming information deserts, which can lead to increased polarization and extremism. To combat this, Trust in Media is focusing on local initiatives to engage communities in discussions about information quality and transparency. Ellen envisions creating local information ecosystems that empower individuals to make informed decisions based on reliable data.
Quality information is essential for decision-making in all aspects of life, from personal choices to business strategies. Unfortunately, the current media landscape, driven by profit motives, often prioritizes sensationalism over substance, making it difficult for consumers to access the information they need.
Ellen McCarthy's insights into the current media landscape highlight the urgent need for trust and quality information in an age of misinformation. Through her work with Trust in Media, she aims to empower individuals to become informed consumers and navigate the complexities of the information ecosystem. As we move forward, fostering trust at the local level and prioritizing quality information will be essential for building a more informed and engaged society.
Reach out to her on LinkedIn or check out the Trust In Media website to see how you can get involved
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Right now, there is no incentives for media
organizations or the platforms to really change the way they're
doing business. Algorithms tend to be developed
such that it pushes data and information to you that
companies know you want to see or they think you want to see,
or it will help the bottom line for them.
It's just too easy to make moneydelivering information the way
(00:20):
we do it now. Today I have got a really
special guest. Ellen McCarthy is here.
During her career, she's been a force in the national security
(00:41):
world and someone who spent her career leading at the highest
level. Ellen served as Assistant
Secretary of the State for Intelligence and Research, and
now she's pouring her heart and energy into the civic innovation
and mentorship through Trust in Media Corporation.
Ellen, welcome to the show. Thank you, it's so good to be
(01:01):
here. I know you're busy.
You just came to Austin and thank you for spending some time
and coming here. I love Austin.
It's one of my favorite places. I I love the, I love the spirit,
I love the innovation, I love the I think it's got a lot of
characteristics of other towns without the snarkiness.
I love it. Ellen, everybody has a story.
(01:23):
I believe that. And I told you off camera, but
what is your story? What made you to go to
intelligence? And I'm sure you got a story
that dragged you to that world. What?
What is it? Do you remember Sean Connery?
Yes, of course. So I would love to say that I
was born just dying to become anintelligence analyst, but it
(01:44):
really was Sean Connery. The hunt for Red October had
just cleaned out what I thought.He was so hot and I just thought
he was the coolest thing ever. At the time, I was a reporter
for a local newspaper in Annapolis, MD, and I was given
the opportunity to go to the Office of Naval Intelligence as
a submarine analyst. And Sean Connery, Yeah, I just
(02:06):
thought, well, this will be fun.And, you know, what he's doing
is pretty cool. So literally started working at
the Office of Naval Intelligence, thinking I'll do
this for a couple of years. My real goal in life was to own
a golden retriever in a sailboatand live on the Chesapeake Bay
in Annapolis. And while I have the golden
retriever and I didn't marry Sean Connery, but I did marry a
(02:27):
submarine officer, it kind of all worked out.
What was your experience during that intelligence?
Actually that sparked the idea for building the trust in media?
Because you had some idea and you said, OK, I've done my
thing, now I'm going to do go tocivic work.
My story began not with this incredible desire to work in the
(02:48):
intelligence community, but I'lltell you that the minute I
started at the Office of Naval Intelligence, there was no
question I was never going to goback.
You know, I was never going to live on the live on the
Chesapeake Bay and, you know, have this possibly wonderful
life because it's just, it becomes a passion of vocation.
But it wasn't just intelligence.I look, I, I mentioned that I
(03:09):
started as a reporter and I really now realize that for me,
my, what, what drove me was delivering information to people
in a way that could help them make decisions.
And the intelligence community, we call intelligence's job is to
deliver decision advantage, muchlike for reporters and
(03:31):
journalists, it's about delivering information that help
people make decisions. And so I, I realize now that
what motivated me from the very beginning was really about
gathering information that people can use to lead their
lives, lead a country, drive a submarine, figure out what door
to knock down. And, and so that's, that's
really that what that was my passion.
(03:53):
And so I started as a reporter and moved to Naval Intelligence,
would then spend 30 some years working across the intelligence
community. There's 18 agencies in the US
intelligence community. I think I've worked for or with
almost all of them. And something I noticed from the
days of Sean Connery to where weare today is that information is
(04:15):
not as integrated in decision making as it once was.
I actually read a book put out by the Rand Corporation just
after I was leave left government, left State
Department. I read this book by Jennifer
Kavanaugh and Michael Rich called Truth Decay, the Absence
of Facts in American Decision Making.
And I read this book and it really struck me that we we now
(04:39):
have more information as humans than we ever have before.
But it's usefulness to us. It's it's it's usefulness in
terms of helping us make decisions is far less now than
it was when I started back in the days of Sean Connery.
Information is all about how we're going to interpret that.
You know, you gather informationand you hand it over and how
(05:00):
we're going to interpret that. That's it's up to us and what
decision we're going to make based on this decision.
Even in the entrepreneurship andin the leadership, Especially in
the leadership, how important istrust in information when you
have a leadership position, likeif you are a leader and somebody
hand you the information, you got to trust that information.
(05:23):
A. 100% So again, I started during the Cold War Soviet Union
was EU s s biggest focus during those days.
The intelligence that we collected was pretty much the
only data in town for the for the kinds of things that we had
to the kinds of decisions that war fighters had to make.
(05:44):
At that time, there was no open source information.
We were very trusted, you know, and we also had that
relationship. The information was trusted
because the submarine officer orthe policymaker knew when we put
together an assessment that was based on solid sources that it
was verified that they understood the the analytic
(06:04):
technique that we used to to develop this particular
assessment and they trusted us. That has changed a lot in the
last 40 years. And I think it's because there's
so much more data out there. And your point about trust is
just so incredibly important that, you know, if we're
providing now an assessment and there is other sources of
(06:28):
information that provide different positions, but it
comes from trusted sources, the ability, the ability of
intelligence to provide decisionadvantage now becomes far more
challenging. And so this is a long way of
saying that that there has to betrust between the leader and and
their workforce or their customer.
(06:48):
If you ever tend to move the needle forward, the.
Data, I'm so happy that you mentioned that data is being
diluted with so much unreliable news like the rise of the AI,
you we really don't know who we're going to trust, who we can
trust. It's just what is real, what is
not real? Are we going to trust the
source? Are we going to trust, you know,
(07:11):
what is out there and what is happening between the source and
when it's going to go out there?Those days, I think that you
were many years ago we were in that advance in technology and
that, you know, data migration and data analytics and all that.
Now it's it's very challenging, don't you think?
(07:31):
Well, I know. So again, I when I left
government, when I left the State Department, I was really
surprised at how often an intelligence assessment would be
provided to a policymaker. But they didn't use it.
They didn't want it because it didn't comport with the policies
that they were trying to move ahead.
And there were so much other data sources that did comport
with their policy. So they just tended to, to lean
(07:54):
on those sources. And it kind of gets back to and
by the way, I'm not, this is not, I'm not political at all.
It's just, it's just human. So right now we have so much
data that we have to work with, whether you are the president of
the United States, you're a business owner, you're a stay at
home mom. There's so much data that you
have to, to, to sort of drive through to figure out what's
(08:16):
going on, whether it's where do I take my child to the dentist?
What sports do I sign my kids upfor?
You know, I'm, I'm worried aboutmy brand.
I I want the president to understand what's going on in
Iran. There's just so much data.
And now you with the massive experience in the government and
(08:37):
intelligence and what you have done, now you pivoting into the
entrepreneurship, you're an entrepreneur and you pivoting
into that. It's totally different world.
It's totally different world. How did you pivot and was it
easy or you said what did I? Do you know this decision?
Most people, when they leave, most people when they leave the
(08:59):
intelligence community after a career, they tend to move on to
work in large companies or they'll sit on boards or they'll
do some consulting. And for whatever reason, I
thought, I'm going to start thisnonprofit, this, this thing
called Trust in Media. It's a, we are an organization
of roughly 3000 organizations and individuals from the
(09:23):
technology sector, academia, media, other nonprofits, all
with the focus on empowering people, giving people agency to
demand quality information. So it's not fighting mis and
disinformation through fact checking and content moderating.
(09:43):
It's really about raising awareness and providing folks
with the tools and understandingof what is quality information.
How do you navigate through thisincredibly muddy information
ecosystem? I'm going to tell you that I, I
think much like my decision to go into intelligence, that was
my decision to start a nonprofit.
It really was not based on on enough analysis and research.
(10:04):
I just thought I'll start a nonprofit.
I'd run one before I'd run the Intelligence and National
Security Alliance. I'd, I'd run a for profit
company that it was a subsidiaryto a non profit.
And I thought I can do this. This is the hardest thing I've
ever done ever, ever, ever, everdone.
I think I realized that there are those people who thrive with
(10:26):
process and there's those peoplewho thrive with outcome.
And I'm an outcome driven person.
But process is very important. And when you don't thrive in
process, you have a difficult time establishing processes,
establishing focus. And I really had to surround
(10:48):
myself with people who were muchbetter at establishing
frameworks and process and strategies and goals and sort of
keep me in my lanes and focused.And especially right now you are
standing the other side of the fence.
You are now a user of the information, even though you're
trying to make it better and send something out that it worth
(11:12):
listening or or reading how you feel that now you are a user
rather than you were just analysts.
Now you said, oh, what people, they were thinking about us now
because you're on the other sideof the fence right now.
Totally. And and so, you know, another
thing is when you're setting up an organization that's talking
about trusting information, that's a pretty volatile topic
(11:34):
right now. It's not, you know, we use the
analogy that we are trying to create an ecosystem like we have
with food right now. So when you when you purchase
food or when you order food at arestaurant, you know what the
ingredients are. And so our vision is that in the
information ecosystem, people should have the same
understanding about information,not whether it's right or wrong,
(11:56):
you get to figure that out, but what are the ingredients in that
information? What is the provenance?
What is the sourcing? What is the timeliness?
What is the credibility, a basicunderstanding for what makes up
that piece of information? What are the data elements in
it? And then you decide whether or
not you want to use that or not.Makes perfect sense to me.
But in a very highly polarized world, you have to be very
(12:18):
careful about the words you use and and your and your focus.
If you know trust fact checking and content moderating is not a
particularly safe business to bein.
People, very rightfully so, don't like other people fact
checking or content moderating for them.
And we, we live in a society, wehave a constitution right to
(12:39):
free speech. And I completely cherish those
those rights and privileges for living in this country.
And that's not what Tim is all about.
Tim is merely about giving people an understanding for what
information they're consuming and then letting them make
decisions. Because we make decisions based
on those information. As an entrepreneur, as a
business owner, we read information every day and
(13:00):
sometimes like we have to pivot.For example, with the rise of
AI, all these companies, most ofthe company, they said we have
two options, use it or lose it. Right.
And they have to pivot based on what?
Based on the information that they receive, how healthy those
informations are, that's different story.
You know, part of the reason whywe are where we are right now
(13:23):
into the, in this incredibly muddy and messy information
ecosystem is because of business.
You know, right now there is no incentives for media
organizations or the platforms to really change the way they're
doing business right now. So right now, algorithms tend to
be developed such that it pushesdata and information to you that
(13:46):
they that that that companies know you want to see or they
think you want to see or it willhelp the bottom line for them.
So there's algorithmic distortion.
There's an environment where people who are very have deep
political views or ideological views or just want to make
money, they take advantage of this of this ecosystem.
(14:06):
So my point in all this is that there is not a business model
that incentivizes organizations to help you navigate the, the
information ecosystem, not in a way that's easily scalable.
There's, there's plenty of organizations out there right
now that are developing quality information and have great tools
and resources to help you identify deep fakes or you know,
(14:28):
when somebody's calling you on the phone to be able to identify
if this is a scam or not. But it's very difficult to scale
all of the all of those because we work in a world where it's
just easier to make money. The way we're doing it right
now. It's, I liken it to the time,
the late 1800s of yellow journalism.
It's exactly the, it's exactly that time again, where if you
(14:49):
just make, it's just too easy tomake money delivering
information the way we do it now.
And So what is the incentive to to change?
And that's part of what we're trying to do it.
And how you're going to differentiate yourself.
I, I really like what you said that is you can make money, but
how we're going to differentiateourself as as a company, as a
(15:09):
business, as a person, as a nonprofit that, you know, we do
something right. You know, part of our hypothesis
is, is that there is this marketout there that that there is
this segment of the market wherethere are people in
organizations that want quality information.
You've talked about business andyour and your viewers.
Business people I think probablymore than any other sector right
(15:31):
now depend on quality information.
And so it's, it's how do you incentivize business to invest
in in capabilities that will guarantee they're getting
quality information? When the data is not healthy,
how you going to do analysis on the data?
But if those are diluted, the source is not trustworthy,
right? How you going to make decision
(15:52):
and go forward, especially todaywhen you're going to build a
business? Well, given that we are so
polarized right now that we, youknow, and it's not just the
United States, it's the world. So we trust nothing.
There's organization organizations out there like
Edelman, they produce the trust Barometer.
It's a huge advertising company in Canada.
But the trust Barometer, incredible measure of trust and
(16:15):
organizations to include business and religion and
government and, and they look globally at where trust is Pew,
Gallup, these are all organizations that for years
have been looking at trust. And for the last 75 years, trust
has been declining in just aboutevery sector with one exception,
and that is local and it's mostly local business.
(16:38):
So I think it's very telling that right now, the expectation
that somebody's going to come inand fix the ecosystem for us is
just not going to work because we don't trust anything.
So the whole focus of Tim reallyis about people have to have
agency. We need to be more informed
consumers and we need to have wewe should we need to have the
(17:01):
tools and resources that help usbecome more informed consumers.
And it's just just not media literacy.
It's a combination of media literacy and transparency in our
data and then tools that will help us get the data we want
quickly because we know right now that that's that's one of
the most important standards. Quality information is is speed.
(17:21):
How do? You think the media they're
going to gain the trust or how media they're going to create
that trust? It's very challenging.
It is, especially since I'm not sure, you know, the media sector
is not it's, it's, it's definitely wider than it's ever
been before it, it used to be Dan Rather and traditional media
in the New York Times and the Texas Tribune.
(17:41):
And then social media entered the scene and, you know, now
it's YouTube and TikTok and Reddit.
But it's even gone beyond that now.
Now it can be podcasters or anyone who writes A blog or
anyone who writes an e-mail or asocial media influencer.
They can now be part of the media sphere.
The reality is, is that everybody's media is right as
everybody has media right now. So, you know, that's, that's
(18:04):
again, I, I, I use the example of, of the 1890s and yellow
journalism. You know, what really changed in
the 1890s was we actually implemented journalistic
standards and we had more training of journalists.
And so that's where the Walter Cronkite's and the Dan Rathers
came from. But in this environment, what's
the point of having a journalistic standard if
(18:26):
nobody's reading the New York Times?
And so it's a bigger challenge now and it's one where people
actually, so consumers need to be much better consumers of
information than they ever been before.
And that's very difficult right now.
When we are, we are overwhelmed with information.
We either shut down or we just believe whatever is given to us
(18:50):
or we think that what we're getting is already quality.
And so how do you, you know, what do you do in that
environment? And that's something that we're
really struggling with. And, and part of our strategy
really is to start hitting localmarkets.
Let's go local. So if trust exists at in the
local business level, let's start going to local communities
(19:14):
and let's start having the discussions like we're having
today. And let's run some pilot
projects and see if people can see what's in their data.
Will they make different choices?
And so that's our next step. You have talked to so many
leaders I know during, you know,you know, building the trust in
media, you get feedback. What other leaders are thinking
(19:36):
like, are they the same pages asyou are?
I'm going to tell you I we have an incredible network and trust
in media. I have 4 star military officers.
I have former media personnel onour Advisory Board.
Chuck Todd just started as a media advisor, Marcus Broccoli.
We have big tech companies like everybody.
(19:58):
Our our methodology is somethingthat we have broad support for
amongst very senior folks. In fact, we're hosting an event
here in another couple of monthsbringing some of those folks
together to talk a little bit more about the business model
for quality information and, andwe have broad support for for
our approach, but. Again, it's, it really gets down
to what's the business model forthis?
(20:20):
What's the revenue model for this?
How we're, we're a nonprofit. You know, if we were a for
profit and we had a couple of tools, there be some opportunity
for some investment. But as a nonprofit, it's how do
you donate to this and what do you get out of that donation?
Is that very hard to explain to the mass that why you're giving
money to us? I'm getting better at it again,
one of those things that's hard about starting a non profit, but
(20:42):
yeah, it is. It's how do you, this is such a
big issue and I'm sure some of your other your, your listeners
and viewers have the same challenge.
How do you explain this in a waythat motivates people to want to
be a part of this or want to contribute to this?
Because most of us we ignore theinformation that we get every
day. I said, OK, this is another,
this is another news. But we really not focusing on
(21:04):
that because we make, as you said earlier, we make a lots of
our decision based on the information we receive.
Me personally, I read and listenevery day and I have to analyze
that. Is it right?
Is it true? If it's true, what I have to do?
What I have to change? Should I pivot?
(21:24):
Should I stay? Should I go?
Most of the people, they go withthe flow.
What's happening is like hurt, let's let's all go that way.
But I think that's going to change very soon.
I keep saying the time is ripe, that it's, you know, you look
what's going on right now in LosAngeles, for example, with all
the protests. That's an incredible example of
(21:46):
how information is being manipulated to drive violence.
And it's, it's not just in Los Angeles, it's in Gaza.
It is, it is everywhere. And I, I, I really thought that
we would have reached this precipice five years ago, but we
haven't. But I think it's very soon that,
(22:06):
that much like the 1890s where people said, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait. You know, we, we went into the
Spanish American War and I had no idea why we were doing this.
I think we're we're getting veryclose to that time.
As a female entrepreneur and as a woman that most of the US,
most of us, we ignore, not ignore.
Should I say it's just we say, oh, she's a female, she's
(22:30):
running a nonprofit. Have you ever had those
challenges? Like because we are dominated by
men unfortunately, right? Did you have any challenges
running the organization as a female entrepreneur?
You know, it's so like, so I, I spent over 30 years working in
the Defense Department, in the law enforcement community, and
then at State Department. That was.
(22:52):
Not a story. Many, many times I was the only
woman in the room. I've got to tell you, I, I don't
think I realized I so little things that I never realized
things like, you know, if we were in a group of men and they
wouldn't look at me when we talked, when we spoke, or if I
was in a meeting and I said something and then somebody else
(23:13):
said the exact same thing and they got feedback for it.
Oh my gosh, that happened all the time.
I always thought that it was because I wasn't smart enough.
I hadn't studied enough. I needed to work harder.
It was very late in my career that I realized, wait, that's
not what this was about. It wasn't that I wasn't smart
enough or hadn't, wasn't prepared.
(23:33):
It was it was just the dynamics of working as a woman in a male
dominated world. And you know, again, it happened
later in my career where I came to that realization and I was
able to adjust and employ a few techniques to to fix that.
But what I also learned was the value of surrounding myself with
(23:54):
some other women as mentors to help to help me with this.
So I guess it's a long way of saying I've been very blessed
with wonderful male bosses and colleagues, but especially later
in my career, it was the women that sort of helped me make that
leap. Now as I start a nonprofit, I, I
feel like I've come, I'm coming at this with that awareness and
realization that I may not have had in government.
(24:16):
And so it's not been, it's, I'm not facing those challenges
right now. Maybe it's because I'm old
because I don't care. So, but I mean, I do care, but I
don't care about that dynamic anymore.
I think I'm good so. But duting is still exist.
I definitely think it still exists.
Just look at the data, you know,you look at VCC and investment
and women owned businesses and you know that the Angel and that
(24:38):
you just look at the investment community and the data that
shows that women started businesses almost always are
your best investment and yet they're not invested in.
So why is that now that I'm talking to you, maybe I'm
thinking out loud, maybe there maybe that is part of the
challenge right now. Could be and why you think is
exists is because of the men's perception of women or just this
is what society has built over time and time.
(25:03):
Again, I, I think it is what society has built time over
time. Again, I, I remember one boss
when I was in government asked me why it was that everybody
looked like him and not as many people look like me and or me
and then me with color or me with different, a different
background. You know, why is that?
And for the longest time, I thought it was, I mean, and then
(25:25):
these certainly were factors. It was opportunity.
It was, there was a whole host of things.
But then I also came, one of thefactors that I think really
struck me was it's about our comfort level.
And so, you know that the reality is you surround yourself
as a leader with people who helpyou.
They're, you're comfortable withthose folks.
Diversity is a very tough thing.I think that it's it's hard to
(25:48):
manage through diversity, but I think it's incredibly important
to manage through diversity. And so I'm a little different in
that regard. I tend to surround myself with
people who think differently than I do, come from different
places than I do. Sometimes we drive each other
crazy, but we're always better for.
It you surround yourself with the people that are smarter than
you, they they know better than you and they.
(26:08):
Think differently than they. Think differently in you and
it's very rare the leaders or entrepreneurs, they think like
that and I believe that's the key to success.
I know it's the key. No, but I know it's the key to
success because that's, well, I have a lifetime of working in a
in government where I've employed that tactic and have
(26:29):
never failed, never failed. It's not easy.
Managing with through diversity is not easy because people are
motivated by different things. They have different backgrounds,
they have a different language. But it's worth the effort and
it, it's always worth the effort.
I, there's never been one time that I've been sorry for not
(26:50):
having employed that tactic. So I I'm not going to stop doing
that. Based on that, you're open to
feedback and criticism, right? Feedback is a gift again.
So this is where the intelligence community was a
great place to grow up because you know, there's usually
there's very few intelligence successes, there's lots of
intelligence failures. And so if you are, if you cannot
(27:10):
take comments on a written product or feedback during a
briefing, if you, if, if, if youwere easily put out by critical
feedback, then that's not the business for you.
But that's where you learn and that's where you know to put
your focus. Risk and risk analysis is, is
the best. I mean, understanding risks in
any business is, is how you succeed.
(27:33):
And it's the same thing in the intelligence community.
Have you ever got to the point that in your past career that
you said that's enough, I'm done, you went through that
situation. Oh my gosh, yes.
I mean, I have to. I'm saying that because a lot of
us be giving up as entrepreneur,you get to the point that you
said I'm done, I can't scale it,I can't go forward.
(27:53):
The economy, the culture, whatever it is, we're going to
give up. I'm sure you were in the
situation. I said that's it, I'm done.
I see it. They don't see it, I feel it,
they don't feel it and I want togo.
I'm there right now sometimes. I mean, it's, it's, it's yeah,
it's lonely. It's yes, I mean, there's
(28:15):
definitely, there's definitely no, no question.
But but again, this is where surrounding yourself with people
who are smarter than you, but also people you trust.
And, you know, it's, it's it's those advisors who who will say
to you, Nope, you're right, it'stime to stop or Nope, you know,
(28:35):
put your big curl pants on Ellen.
Let's just keep going. And so that's what I would
advise businesses that are saying, when do I decide to
stop? And, you know, sometimes it is a
good time to stop or pivot or start something new.
So it's not about, you know, quitting isn't always bad, but I
think, you know, having surrounding yourself with data
and advisors that will sort of help you make those decisions is
(28:57):
critically important. But your past career, is it
really helping you a lot in thisnonprofit?
Trust in media. Well, so you know if you.
Gain something that you implemented right now.
So it's actually that my, my background as a reporter and an
intelligence analyst and having run intelligence organizations
is exactly I, when I, when I wasleaving government, I thought,
(29:17):
you know, who's providing decision advantage for the
American people, for the world? Who's doing that right now?
Who's who's helping people decide where do I get the best
price on eggs? Where do I, should I get
vaccinated? You know, should I, should I
pursue this career path? Who's who's providing that?
It used to be the media sector used to do that, but nobody's
(29:39):
doing that right now. And so, you know, the skills and
the tradecraft that I acquired through my time in government, I
think are very easily transferable to the private
sector. So this concept of giving people
an understanding to not just trust one source to look at the
(29:59):
timeliness of something, to verify something before you
share it. You know, these are all things
that you do as an intelligence analyst and now people need to
do in, in, in the private sector.
So I think I'm one of the best people to promote this.
Trust in media, A source that you can trust.
That's a great tagline. It really is.
And trust is. Trust is where it all begins.
(30:21):
And trust is not data. Trust is people.
Trust is that human? OK, let's talk about that
because I'm I'm so happy that you mentioned that because I'm a
people person and it's very hardto build that trust.
It's a two way roads and trusting in the data.
OK, that's good. You read it, you really listen
to it. But when you, you and I, we have
that we just met, how we're going to build that trust
(30:43):
people, they're going to build trust based on what?
What do you say what you tell mebased on your experience, based
on your goals, your missions, how people these days with this
all information out there, they can trust the person.
I said, Ellen, welcome to my circle.
I can trust you. You know, again, I look back at
my my time in government really was what further cemented for me
(31:07):
this concept of how important trust is.
And the reason was when I ran the Bureau of Intelligence and
Research at State Department, it's one of the smallest
intelligence organizations in the USIC.
So by comparison, its counterpart organizations are
the Central Intelligence Agency,CIA, and the Defense
Intelligence Agency, DIA. Very large intelligence
(31:28):
organizations, 15,000 or more people.
And their business model is theywrite up intelligence and they
hit the send button and it gets sent out and people can use it
if they want to use it and people cannot use it if they
don't want to use it. At INR we're small office that
sits inside the State Departmentand our analysts visit with the
(31:49):
ambassadors, they sit with the policymakers, they meet with the
secretary. There's, there's fewer than 300
people in INR and they do that every day.
And as a result, they've createda relationship with the
Secretary of State or with the ambassador to Kenya or the head
of the East Asia Bureau. They've, they've got those
(32:09):
relationships and they love their job and, and, and the
consumers of their intelligence trust them because they have
that personal connection that doesn't necessarily exist in
some of the other agencies whereyou just hit send, you send out
a product and then you don't know whether or not it was ever
used or valued. The analysts at INR tend to
stay, they die at their desks because they are self
(32:32):
actualization comes from knowingthat they're helping people or
is that's not necessarily the same data statistic for some of
the other Intel agencies. So it really struck me that
being small, having that connection really is where it
all begins. And I, I referenced local a
number of times. And the reality is, is that the
(32:53):
data shows that people tend to trust their local businesses,
their local community, their local community leaders, their
school boards, much more so thanwe do the federal government as
an as an example. And why is that?
It's because we have that connection, yet we also live in
a time when local media is dying.
And we already, it's, it's actually sad.
(33:14):
Something like 70% of our country is a local news desert
right now. And some of the data points that
really resonate with me is in communities where there's no
local news source, people are far more easily recruited to
extremist views. And the towns don't do as well
financially. So towns have a tougher time
(33:35):
securing bonds or getting loans.And so it's it's it's a couple
steps back for people who live in those communities because
there's no local information. And yet people, we already know
that people will trust somebody,they will listen to somebody
over somebody they don't know. Social media influencers are so
impactful for that reason because there's a level of trust
(33:55):
between the readers and the producers of social media in in
that world. We really need to look at
rebuilding our local informationor or recreating our local
information hubs because that's where trust resides and it
really gets to because of connections with people.
I think we should go back as youhad mentioned and I said it,
(34:19):
that we're going to go back to one-on-one people, to people
that you go actually to the source, you actually pull your
heart and then you talk challenges, solution, whatever
it is, everybody can go in that way for the a artificial
intelligence, that deep figure. I think we have to go back a
little bit and I promise you we will recognize that very soon
(34:41):
that OK, we got this, but what is the reality?
The reality is what Alan and I we're doing, we're talking and
sitting, which is you can penetrate the local people and
say, hey, let's get together. I agree.
I think, I think it's a yes and though, because I think that in
a world where most of our data is going to be synthetically
(35:02):
produced here very soon, there's, there's some estimates
by Amazon that something like 60% of the Internet, 60 or 70%,
some crazy number in the next couple of years will be
synthetically generated information.
So AI generated information thatwe have to be more transparent
in our data sources. We have to people have to know,
(35:22):
just like with food, what is in their information.
They have to have that label. There has to be there has to be
something that says this is where it came from.
This is the timeliness, this is the credibility, this is the
completeness. We have to have that.
And, and I think to your point that we need to, we need to
recreate those connections. And that's where I think local
(35:43):
information, local, the creationof local information ecosystems
is incredibly important. Because in your case, how you
going to raise money you have toget with people right?
You have basically what you're doing.
You created a movement and I feel that you're creating a
movement with trust in media. You're creating something that
people said wow that exists yes.Therefore, it's going to be
(36:08):
requires that you get actually be people travel right and go
and meet face to face. This is about trust in media.
This is what we do. Would you be able to help us I.
Need to highlight, and I haven'tmentioned this yet, but it's
something I really want to emphasize.
This is a national security issue.
The one of the reasons I'm doingthis and I probably should have
(36:28):
highlighted this earlier is thatwe're getting taken advantage
of. It's not just by people inside
our country benefiting financially, It's not just the
tech platforms and the advertisers.
It's not just that, it's that our ecosystem is being taken
advantage of and we're being taken advantage of.
(36:49):
And that should drive us crazy. And you know, it's, it's outside
countries, it's outside players,and it's not just in the United
States. Again, this is a global issue.
And that should make you mad andthat should actually drive you
to be a better consumer, a more,not a better consumer.
I'm not going. That's not a tagline, a more
informed consumer that we, we you need to do that.
(37:12):
Because information is everything we make decision.
We said it many times in this, you know, podcast that
information is made everything. We make decision, right every
day based on information we'd receive.
Believe it or not, good or bad, we do it every day.
I've used the word in the past. I'm not sure I like it, but I'll
say, but we also have to democratize it.
So the reality is, is that thereis quality information out
(37:33):
there. If you're a business owner, you
probably probably work with the Wall Street Journal or the Dow
or there's, there's plenty of trusted data sites that will
help you do your business. The banking community has the
same thing, but in order to get to quality information, you have
to pay for it. There's it's almost all of it is
hidden and it's because it's the, and by the way, it's not
(37:53):
because these are bad organizations that are doing
this. It's the only way they can make
money. But you can't scale that.
So not everybody can afford the Wall Street Journal or the Dow,
or not everybody can can afford All Sides Media or Tangle, and
these are some incredible news sites.
But how do we democratize it? How do we make it such that
(38:13):
everyone has access to quality information?
That's what trust in media stands for exactly, and how
people they can help trust in media, if you have a message for
him, how they can get involved or how they can help you.
Because what you do is really priceless honesty.
And you know that's going to change a lot of stuff if we get
enough people to understand it, because education is big part of
(38:36):
what you. Education is a critical part is
a. Critical part of what you do and
it's going to push us forward when we educate people, you
connecting with them and then now you got to educate them and
your offer will be this is what we're going to offer you.
And we're partnered with some incredible organizations that
are focused on educating media education.
The National Association for Media Literacy and Education is
(38:57):
one of them. So I would, so I would suggest
that you contact me at my website, soitstimcoop.org where
you know, please drop me a note.I'd love to connect with you,
hear how we might get you involved.
Do you have any advice for female entrepreneurs that are
out there? They're going to start their own
business, profit or nonprofit. What advice do you have for
(39:19):
them? What advice do I have for other
women? I think I'd say do it.
And here's why. I think we hold ourselves back.
You know, you're you know, you're a working mother.
You are taking care. You're involved in elder care,
you're just starting out. And there's this view that I
(39:41):
can't, you know, we hold ourselves back.
We come up with all the reasons why we can't do this.
And what I, what I have found isthat there are so many races,
resources out there and organizations and people that
will help you. And so, you know, I of course,
you can follow a path where you're working for a company and
you're making money, but you're not happy.
(40:02):
But there is this other path that seems a little scary, but
there's so many resources out there.
And I already know that you're helping people with the
identifying those resources. So I would say just do it and
surround yourself with some folks that will will help you
along the way because they're there.
I love it. Thank you so much Ellen for your
time being here. I really appreciate I enjoyed
our conversation. I'll name so much.
(40:23):
Thank you. This is awesome.
Thank you.
Right now, there is no incentives for media
organizations or the platforms to really change the way they're
doing business. Algorithms tend to be developed
such that it pushes data and information to you that
companies know you want to see or they think you want to see,
or it will help the bottom line for them.
It's just too easy to make moneydelivering information the way
(00:20):
we do it now. Today I have got a really
special guest. Ellen McCarthy is here.
During her career, she's been a force in the national security
(00:41):
world and someone who spent her career leading at the highest
level. Ellen served as Assistant
Secretary of the State for Intelligence and Research, and
now she's pouring her heart and energy into the civic innovation
and mentorship through Trust in Media Corporation.
Ellen, welcome to the show. Thank you, it's so good to be
(01:01):
here. I know you're busy.
You just came to Austin and thank you for spending some time
and coming here. I love Austin.
It's one of my favorite places. I I love the, I love the spirit,
I love the innovation, I love the I think it's got a lot of
characteristics of other towns without the snarkiness.
I love it. Ellen, everybody has a story.
(01:23):
I believe that. And I told you off camera, but
what is your story? What made you to go to
intelligence? And I'm sure you got a story
that dragged you to that world. What?
What is it? Do you remember Sean Connery?
Yes, of course. So I would love to say that I
was born just dying to become anintelligence analyst, but it
(01:44):
really was Sean Connery. The hunt for Red October had
just cleaned out what I thought.He was so hot and I just thought
he was the coolest thing ever. At the time, I was a reporter
for a local newspaper in Annapolis, MD, and I was given
the opportunity to go to the Office of Naval Intelligence as
a submarine analyst. And Sean Connery, Yeah, I just
(02:06):
thought, well, this will be fun.And, you know, what he's doing
is pretty cool. So literally started working at
the Office of Naval Intelligence, thinking I'll do
this for a couple of years. My real goal in life was to own
a golden retriever in a sailboatand live on the Chesapeake Bay
in Annapolis. And while I have the golden
retriever and I didn't marry Sean Connery, but I did marry a
(02:27):
submarine officer, it kind of all worked out.
What was your experience during that intelligence?
Actually that sparked the idea for building the trust in media?
Because you had some idea and you said, OK, I've done my
thing, now I'm going to do go tocivic work.
My story began not with this incredible desire to work in the
(02:48):
intelligence community, but I'lltell you that the minute I
started at the Office of Naval Intelligence, there was no
question I was never going to goback.
You know, I was never going to live on the live on the
Chesapeake Bay and, you know, have this possibly wonderful
life because it's just, it becomes a passion of vocation.
But it wasn't just intelligence.I look, I, I mentioned that I
(03:09):
started as a reporter and I really now realize that for me,
my, what, what drove me was delivering information to people
in a way that could help them make decisions.
And the intelligence community, we call intelligence's job is to
deliver decision advantage, muchlike for reporters and
(03:31):
journalists, it's about delivering information that help
people make decisions. And so I, I realize now that
what motivated me from the very beginning was really about
gathering information that people can use to lead their
lives, lead a country, drive a submarine, figure out what door
to knock down. And, and so that's, that's
really that what that was my passion.
(03:53):
And so I started as a reporter and moved to Naval Intelligence,
would then spend 30 some years working across the intelligence
community. There's 18 agencies in the US
intelligence community. I think I've worked for or with
almost all of them. And something I noticed from the
days of Sean Connery to where weare today is that information is
(04:15):
not as integrated in decision making as it once was.
I actually read a book put out by the Rand Corporation just
after I was leave left government, left State
Department. I read this book by Jennifer
Kavanaugh and Michael Rich called Truth Decay, the Absence
of Facts in American Decision Making.
And I read this book and it really struck me that we we now
(04:39):
have more information as humans than we ever have before.
But it's usefulness to us. It's it's it's usefulness in
terms of helping us make decisions is far less now than
it was when I started back in the days of Sean Connery.
Information is all about how we're going to interpret that.
You know, you gather informationand you hand it over and how
(05:00):
we're going to interpret that. That's it's up to us and what
decision we're going to make based on this decision.
Even in the entrepreneurship andin the leadership, Especially in
the leadership, how important istrust in information when you
have a leadership position, likeif you are a leader and somebody
hand you the information, you got to trust that information.
(05:23):
A. 100% So again, I started during the Cold War Soviet Union
was EU s s biggest focus during those days.
The intelligence that we collected was pretty much the
only data in town for the for the kinds of things that we had
to the kinds of decisions that war fighters had to make.
(05:44):
At that time, there was no open source information.
We were very trusted, you know, and we also had that
relationship. The information was trusted
because the submarine officer orthe policymaker knew when we put
together an assessment that was based on solid sources that it
was verified that they understood the the analytic
(06:04):
technique that we used to to develop this particular
assessment and they trusted us. That has changed a lot in the
last 40 years. And I think it's because there's
so much more data out there. And your point about trust is
just so incredibly important that, you know, if we're
providing now an assessment and there is other sources of
(06:28):
information that provide different positions, but it
comes from trusted sources, the ability, the ability of
intelligence to provide decisionadvantage now becomes far more
challenging. And so this is a long way of
saying that that there has to betrust between the leader and and
their workforce or their customer.
(06:48):
If you ever tend to move the needle forward, the.
Data, I'm so happy that you mentioned that data is being
diluted with so much unreliable news like the rise of the AI,
you we really don't know who we're going to trust, who we can
trust. It's just what is real, what is
not real? Are we going to trust the
source? Are we going to trust, you know,
(07:11):
what is out there and what is happening between the source and
when it's going to go out there?Those days, I think that you
were many years ago we were in that advance in technology and
that, you know, data migration and data analytics and all that.
Now it's it's very challenging, don't you think?
(07:31):
Well, I know. So again, I when I left
government, when I left the State Department, I was really
surprised at how often an intelligence assessment would be
provided to a policymaker. But they didn't use it.
They didn't want it because it didn't comport with the policies
that they were trying to move ahead.
And there were so much other data sources that did comport
with their policy. So they just tended to, to lean
(07:54):
on those sources. And it kind of gets back to and
by the way, I'm not, this is not, I'm not political at all.
It's just, it's just human. So right now we have so much
data that we have to work with, whether you are the president of
the United States, you're a business owner, you're a stay at
home mom. There's so much data that you
have to, to, to sort of drive through to figure out what's
(08:16):
going on, whether it's where do I take my child to the dentist?
What sports do I sign my kids upfor?
You know, I'm, I'm worried aboutmy brand.
I I want the president to understand what's going on in
Iran. There's just so much data.
And now you with the massive experience in the government and
(08:37):
intelligence and what you have done, now you pivoting into the
entrepreneurship, you're an entrepreneur and you pivoting
into that. It's totally different world.
It's totally different world. How did you pivot and was it
easy or you said what did I? Do you know this decision?
Most people, when they leave, most people when they leave the
(08:59):
intelligence community after a career, they tend to move on to
work in large companies or they'll sit on boards or they'll
do some consulting. And for whatever reason, I
thought, I'm going to start thisnonprofit, this, this thing
called Trust in Media. It's a, we are an organization
of roughly 3000 organizations and individuals from the
(09:23):
technology sector, academia, media, other nonprofits, all
with the focus on empowering people, giving people agency to
demand quality information. So it's not fighting mis and
disinformation through fact checking and content moderating.
(09:43):
It's really about raising awareness and providing folks
with the tools and understandingof what is quality information.
How do you navigate through thisincredibly muddy information
ecosystem? I'm going to tell you that I, I
think much like my decision to go into intelligence, that was
my decision to start a nonprofit.
It really was not based on on enough analysis and research.
(10:04):
I just thought I'll start a nonprofit.
I'd run one before I'd run the Intelligence and National
Security Alliance. I'd, I'd run a for profit
company that it was a subsidiaryto a non profit.
And I thought I can do this. This is the hardest thing I've
ever done ever, ever, ever, everdone.
I think I realized that there are those people who thrive with
(10:26):
process and there's those peoplewho thrive with outcome.
And I'm an outcome driven person.
But process is very important. And when you don't thrive in
process, you have a difficult time establishing processes,
establishing focus. And I really had to surround
(10:48):
myself with people who were muchbetter at establishing
frameworks and process and strategies and goals and sort of
keep me in my lanes and focused.And especially right now you are
standing the other side of the fence.
You are now a user of the information, even though you're
trying to make it better and send something out that it worth
(11:12):
listening or or reading how you feel that now you are a user
rather than you were just analysts.
Now you said, oh, what people, they were thinking about us now
because you're on the other sideof the fence right now.
Totally. And and so, you know, another
thing is when you're setting up an organization that's talking
about trusting information, that's a pretty volatile topic
(11:34):
right now. It's not, you know, we use the
analogy that we are trying to create an ecosystem like we have
with food right now. So when you when you purchase
food or when you order food at arestaurant, you know what the
ingredients are. And so our vision is that in the
information ecosystem, people should have the same
understanding about information,not whether it's right or wrong,
(11:56):
you get to figure that out, but what are the ingredients in that
information? What is the provenance?
What is the sourcing? What is the timeliness?
What is the credibility, a basicunderstanding for what makes up
that piece of information? What are the data elements in
it? And then you decide whether or
not you want to use that or not.Makes perfect sense to me.
But in a very highly polarized world, you have to be very
(12:18):
careful about the words you use and and your and your focus.
If you know trust fact checking and content moderating is not a
particularly safe business to bein.
People, very rightfully so, don't like other people fact
checking or content moderating for them.
And we, we live in a society, wehave a constitution right to
(12:39):
free speech. And I completely cherish those
those rights and privileges for living in this country.
And that's not what Tim is all about.
Tim is merely about giving people an understanding for what
information they're consuming and then letting them make
decisions. Because we make decisions based
on those information. As an entrepreneur, as a
business owner, we read information every day and
(13:00):
sometimes like we have to pivot.For example, with the rise of
AI, all these companies, most ofthe company, they said we have
two options, use it or lose it. Right.
And they have to pivot based on what?
Based on the information that they receive, how healthy those
informations are, that's different story.
You know, part of the reason whywe are where we are right now
(13:23):
into the, in this incredibly muddy and messy information
ecosystem is because of business.
You know, right now there is no incentives for media
organizations or the platforms to really change the way they're
doing business right now. So right now, algorithms tend to
be developed such that it pushesdata and information to you that
(13:46):
they that that that companies know you want to see or they
think you want to see or it willhelp the bottom line for them.
So there's algorithmic distortion.
There's an environment where people who are very have deep
political views or ideological views or just want to make
money, they take advantage of this of this ecosystem.
(14:06):
So my point in all this is that there is not a business model
that incentivizes organizations to help you navigate the, the
information ecosystem, not in a way that's easily scalable.
There's, there's plenty of organizations out there right
now that are developing quality information and have great tools
and resources to help you identify deep fakes or you know,
(14:28):
when somebody's calling you on the phone to be able to identify
if this is a scam or not. But it's very difficult to scale
all of the all of those because we work in a world where it's
just easier to make money. The way we're doing it right
now. It's, I liken it to the time,
the late 1800s of yellow journalism.
It's exactly the, it's exactly that time again, where if you
(14:49):
just make, it's just too easy tomake money delivering
information the way we do it now.
And So what is the incentive to to change?
And that's part of what we're trying to do it.
And how you're going to differentiate yourself.
I, I really like what you said that is you can make money, but
how we're going to differentiateourself as as a company, as a
(15:09):
business, as a person, as a nonprofit that, you know, we do
something right. You know, part of our hypothesis
is, is that there is this marketout there that that there is
this segment of the market wherethere are people in
organizations that want quality information.
You've talked about business andyour and your viewers.
Business people I think probablymore than any other sector right
(15:31):
now depend on quality information.
And so it's, it's how do you incentivize business to invest
in in capabilities that will guarantee they're getting
quality information? When the data is not healthy,
how you going to do analysis on the data?
But if those are diluted, the source is not trustworthy,
right? How you going to make decision
(15:52):
and go forward, especially todaywhen you're going to build a
business? Well, given that we are so
polarized right now that we, youknow, and it's not just the
United States, it's the world. So we trust nothing.
There's organization organizations out there like
Edelman, they produce the trust Barometer.
It's a huge advertising company in Canada.
But the trust Barometer, incredible measure of trust and
(16:15):
organizations to include business and religion and
government and, and they look globally at where trust is Pew,
Gallup, these are all organizations that for years
have been looking at trust. And for the last 75 years, trust
has been declining in just aboutevery sector with one exception,
and that is local and it's mostly local business.
(16:38):
So I think it's very telling that right now, the expectation
that somebody's going to come inand fix the ecosystem for us is
just not going to work because we don't trust anything.
So the whole focus of Tim reallyis about people have to have
agency. We need to be more informed
consumers and we need to have wewe should we need to have the
(17:01):
tools and resources that help usbecome more informed consumers.
And it's just just not media literacy.
It's a combination of media literacy and transparency in our
data and then tools that will help us get the data we want
quickly because we know right now that that's that's one of
the most important standards. Quality information is is speed.
(17:21):
How do? You think the media they're
going to gain the trust or how media they're going to create
that trust? It's very challenging.
It is, especially since I'm not sure, you know, the media sector
is not it's, it's, it's definitely wider than it's ever
been before it, it used to be Dan Rather and traditional media
in the New York Times and the Texas Tribune.
(17:41):
And then social media entered the scene and, you know, now
it's YouTube and TikTok and Reddit.
But it's even gone beyond that now.
Now it can be podcasters or anyone who writes A blog or
anyone who writes an e-mail or asocial media influencer.
They can now be part of the media sphere.
The reality is, is that everybody's media is right as
everybody has media right now. So, you know, that's, that's
(18:04):
again, I, I, I use the example of, of the 1890s and yellow
journalism. You know, what really changed in
the 1890s was we actually implemented journalistic
standards and we had more training of journalists.
And so that's where the Walter Cronkite's and the Dan Rathers
came from. But in this environment, what's
the point of having a journalistic standard if
(18:26):
nobody's reading the New York Times?
And so it's a bigger challenge now and it's one where people
actually, so consumers need to be much better consumers of
information than they ever been before.
And that's very difficult right now.
When we are, we are overwhelmed with information.
We either shut down or we just believe whatever is given to us
(18:50):
or we think that what we're getting is already quality.
And so how do you, you know, what do you do in that
environment? And that's something that we're
really struggling with. And, and part of our strategy
really is to start hitting localmarkets.
Let's go local. So if trust exists at in the
local business level, let's start going to local communities
(19:14):
and let's start having the discussions like we're having
today. And let's run some pilot
projects and see if people can see what's in their data.
Will they make different choices?
And so that's our next step. You have talked to so many
leaders I know during, you know,you know, building the trust in
media, you get feedback. What other leaders are thinking
(19:36):
like, are they the same pages asyou are?
I'm going to tell you I we have an incredible network and trust
in media. I have 4 star military officers.
I have former media personnel onour Advisory Board.
Chuck Todd just started as a media advisor, Marcus Broccoli.
We have big tech companies like everybody.
(19:58):
Our our methodology is somethingthat we have broad support for
amongst very senior folks. In fact, we're hosting an event
here in another couple of monthsbringing some of those folks
together to talk a little bit more about the business model
for quality information and, andwe have broad support for for
our approach, but. Again, it's, it really gets down
to what's the business model forthis?
(20:20):
What's the revenue model for this?
How we're, we're a nonprofit. You know, if we were a for
profit and we had a couple of tools, there be some opportunity
for some investment. But as a nonprofit, it's how do
you donate to this and what do you get out of that donation?
Is that very hard to explain to the mass that why you're giving
money to us? I'm getting better at it again,
one of those things that's hard about starting a non profit, but
(20:42):
yeah, it is. It's how do you, this is such a
big issue and I'm sure some of your other your, your listeners
and viewers have the same challenge.
How do you explain this in a waythat motivates people to want to
be a part of this or want to contribute to this?
Because most of us we ignore theinformation that we get every
day. I said, OK, this is another,
this is another news. But we really not focusing on
(21:04):
that because we make, as you said earlier, we make a lots of
our decision based on the information we receive.
Me personally, I read and listenevery day and I have to analyze
that. Is it right?
Is it true? If it's true, what I have to do?
What I have to change? Should I pivot?
(21:24):
Should I stay? Should I go?
Most of the people, they go withthe flow.
What's happening is like hurt, let's let's all go that way.
But I think that's going to change very soon.
I keep saying the time is ripe, that it's, you know, you look
what's going on right now in LosAngeles, for example, with all
the protests. That's an incredible example of
(21:46):
how information is being manipulated to drive violence.
And it's, it's not just in Los Angeles, it's in Gaza.
It is, it is everywhere. And I, I, I really thought that
we would have reached this precipice five years ago, but we
haven't. But I think it's very soon that,
(22:06):
that much like the 1890s where people said, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait. You know, we, we went into the
Spanish American War and I had no idea why we were doing this.
I think we're we're getting veryclose to that time.
As a female entrepreneur and as a woman that most of the US,
most of us, we ignore, not ignore.
Should I say it's just we say, oh, she's a female, she's
(22:30):
running a nonprofit. Have you ever had those
challenges? Like because we are dominated by
men unfortunately, right? Did you have any challenges
running the organization as a female entrepreneur?
You know, it's so like, so I, I spent over 30 years working in
the Defense Department, in the law enforcement community, and
then at State Department. That was.
(22:52):
Not a story. Many, many times I was the only
woman in the room. I've got to tell you, I, I don't
think I realized I so little things that I never realized
things like, you know, if we were in a group of men and they
wouldn't look at me when we talked, when we spoke, or if I
was in a meeting and I said something and then somebody else
(23:13):
said the exact same thing and they got feedback for it.
Oh my gosh, that happened all the time.
I always thought that it was because I wasn't smart enough.
I hadn't studied enough. I needed to work harder.
It was very late in my career that I realized, wait, that's
not what this was about. It wasn't that I wasn't smart
enough or hadn't, wasn't prepared.
(23:33):
It was it was just the dynamics of working as a woman in a male
dominated world. And you know, again, it happened
later in my career where I came to that realization and I was
able to adjust and employ a few techniques to to fix that.
But what I also learned was the value of surrounding myself with
(23:54):
some other women as mentors to help to help me with this.
So I guess it's a long way of saying I've been very blessed
with wonderful male bosses and colleagues, but especially later
in my career, it was the women that sort of helped me make that
leap. Now as I start a nonprofit, I, I
feel like I've come, I'm coming at this with that awareness and
realization that I may not have had in government.
(24:16):
And so it's not been, it's, I'm not facing those challenges
right now. Maybe it's because I'm old
because I don't care. So, but I mean, I do care, but I
don't care about that dynamic anymore.
I think I'm good so. But duting is still exist.
I definitely think it still exists.
Just look at the data, you know,you look at VCC and investment
and women owned businesses and you know that the Angel and that
(24:38):
you just look at the investment community and the data that
shows that women started businesses almost always are
your best investment and yet they're not invested in.
So why is that now that I'm talking to you, maybe I'm
thinking out loud, maybe there maybe that is part of the
challenge right now. Could be and why you think is
exists is because of the men's perception of women or just this
is what society has built over time and time.
(25:03):
Again, I, I think it is what society has built time over
time. Again, I, I remember one boss
when I was in government asked me why it was that everybody
looked like him and not as many people look like me and or me
and then me with color or me with different, a different
background. You know, why is that?
And for the longest time, I thought it was, I mean, and then
(25:25):
these certainly were factors. It was opportunity.
It was, there was a whole host of things.
But then I also came, one of thefactors that I think really
struck me was it's about our comfort level.
And so, you know that the reality is you surround yourself
as a leader with people who helpyou.
They're, you're comfortable withthose folks.
Diversity is a very tough thing.I think that it's it's hard to
(25:48):
manage through diversity, but I think it's incredibly important
to manage through diversity. And so I'm a little different in
that regard. I tend to surround myself with
people who think differently than I do, come from different
places than I do. Sometimes we drive each other
crazy, but we're always better for.
It you surround yourself with the people that are smarter than
you, they they know better than you and they.
(26:08):
Think differently than they. Think differently in you and
it's very rare the leaders or entrepreneurs, they think like
that and I believe that's the key to success.
I know it's the key. No, but I know it's the key to
success because that's, well, I have a lifetime of working in a
in government where I've employed that tactic and have
(26:29):
never failed, never failed. It's not easy.
Managing with through diversity is not easy because people are
motivated by different things. They have different backgrounds,
they have a different language. But it's worth the effort and
it, it's always worth the effort.
I, there's never been one time that I've been sorry for not
(26:50):
having employed that tactic. So I I'm not going to stop doing
that. Based on that, you're open to
feedback and criticism, right? Feedback is a gift again.
So this is where the intelligence community was a
great place to grow up because you know, there's usually
there's very few intelligence successes, there's lots of
intelligence failures. And so if you are, if you cannot
(27:10):
take comments on a written product or feedback during a
briefing, if you, if, if, if youwere easily put out by critical
feedback, then that's not the business for you.
But that's where you learn and that's where you know to put
your focus. Risk and risk analysis is, is
the best. I mean, understanding risks in
any business is, is how you succeed.
(27:33):
And it's the same thing in the intelligence community.
Have you ever got to the point that in your past career that
you said that's enough, I'm done, you went through that
situation. Oh my gosh, yes.
I mean, I have to. I'm saying that because a lot of
us be giving up as entrepreneur,you get to the point that you
said I'm done, I can't scale it,I can't go forward.
(27:53):
The economy, the culture, whatever it is, we're going to
give up. I'm sure you were in the
situation. I said that's it, I'm done.
I see it. They don't see it, I feel it,
they don't feel it and I want togo.
I'm there right now sometimes. I mean, it's, it's, it's yeah,
it's lonely. It's yes, I mean, there's
(28:15):
definitely, there's definitely no, no question.
But but again, this is where surrounding yourself with people
who are smarter than you, but also people you trust.
And, you know, it's, it's it's those advisors who who will say
to you, Nope, you're right, it'stime to stop or Nope, you know,
(28:35):
put your big curl pants on Ellen.
Let's just keep going. And so that's what I would
advise businesses that are saying, when do I decide to
stop? And, you know, sometimes it is a
good time to stop or pivot or start something new.
So it's not about, you know, quitting isn't always bad, but I
think, you know, having surrounding yourself with data
and advisors that will sort of help you make those decisions is
(28:57):
critically important. But your past career, is it
really helping you a lot in thisnonprofit?
Trust in media. Well, so you know if you.
Gain something that you implemented right now.
So it's actually that my, my background as a reporter and an
intelligence analyst and having run intelligence organizations
is exactly I, when I, when I wasleaving government, I thought,
(29:17):
you know, who's providing decision advantage for the
American people, for the world? Who's doing that right now?
Who's who's helping people decide where do I get the best
price on eggs? Where do I, should I get
vaccinated? You know, should I, should I
pursue this career path? Who's who's providing that?
It used to be the media sector used to do that, but nobody's
(29:39):
doing that right now. And so, you know, the skills and
the tradecraft that I acquired through my time in government, I
think are very easily transferable to the private
sector. So this concept of giving people
an understanding to not just trust one source to look at the
(29:59):
timeliness of something, to verify something before you
share it. You know, these are all things
that you do as an intelligence analyst and now people need to
do in, in, in the private sector.
So I think I'm one of the best people to promote this.
Trust in media, A source that you can trust.
That's a great tagline. It really is.
And trust is. Trust is where it all begins.
(30:21):
And trust is not data. Trust is people.
Trust is that human? OK, let's talk about that
because I'm I'm so happy that you mentioned that because I'm a
people person and it's very hardto build that trust.
It's a two way roads and trusting in the data.
OK, that's good. You read it, you really listen
to it. But when you, you and I, we have
that we just met, how we're going to build that trust
(30:43):
people, they're going to build trust based on what?
What do you say what you tell mebased on your experience, based
on your goals, your missions, how people these days with this
all information out there, they can trust the person.
I said, Ellen, welcome to my circle.
I can trust you. You know, again, I look back at
my my time in government really was what further cemented for me
(31:07):
this concept of how important trust is.
And the reason was when I ran the Bureau of Intelligence and
Research at State Department, it's one of the smallest
intelligence organizations in the USIC.
So by comparison, its counterpart organizations are
the Central Intelligence Agency,CIA, and the Defense
Intelligence Agency, DIA. Very large intelligence
(31:28):
organizations, 15,000 or more people.
And their business model is theywrite up intelligence and they
hit the send button and it gets sent out and people can use it
if they want to use it and people cannot use it if they
don't want to use it. At INR we're small office that
sits inside the State Departmentand our analysts visit with the
(31:49):
ambassadors, they sit with the policymakers, they meet with the
secretary. There's, there's fewer than 300
people in INR and they do that every day.
And as a result, they've createda relationship with the
Secretary of State or with the ambassador to Kenya or the head
of the East Asia Bureau. They've, they've got those
(32:09):
relationships and they love their job and, and, and the
consumers of their intelligence trust them because they have
that personal connection that doesn't necessarily exist in
some of the other agencies whereyou just hit send, you send out
a product and then you don't know whether or not it was ever
used or valued. The analysts at INR tend to
stay, they die at their desks because they are self
(32:32):
actualization comes from knowingthat they're helping people or
is that's not necessarily the same data statistic for some of
the other Intel agencies. So it really struck me that
being small, having that connection really is where it
all begins. And I, I referenced local a
number of times. And the reality is, is that the
(32:53):
data shows that people tend to trust their local businesses,
their local community, their local community leaders, their
school boards, much more so thanwe do the federal government as
an as an example. And why is that?
It's because we have that connection, yet we also live in
a time when local media is dying.
And we already, it's, it's actually sad.
(33:14):
Something like 70% of our country is a local news desert
right now. And some of the data points that
really resonate with me is in communities where there's no
local news source, people are far more easily recruited to
extremist views. And the towns don't do as well
financially. So towns have a tougher time
(33:35):
securing bonds or getting loans.And so it's it's it's a couple
steps back for people who live in those communities because
there's no local information. And yet people, we already know
that people will trust somebody,they will listen to somebody
over somebody they don't know. Social media influencers are so
impactful for that reason because there's a level of trust
(33:55):
between the readers and the producers of social media in in
that world. We really need to look at
rebuilding our local informationor or recreating our local
information hubs because that's where trust resides and it
really gets to because of connections with people.
I think we should go back as youhad mentioned and I said it,
(34:19):
that we're going to go back to one-on-one people, to people
that you go actually to the source, you actually pull your
heart and then you talk challenges, solution, whatever
it is, everybody can go in that way for the a artificial
intelligence, that deep figure. I think we have to go back a
little bit and I promise you we will recognize that very soon
(34:41):
that OK, we got this, but what is the reality?
The reality is what Alan and I we're doing, we're talking and
sitting, which is you can penetrate the local people and
say, hey, let's get together. I agree.
I think, I think it's a yes and though, because I think that in
a world where most of our data is going to be synthetically
(35:02):
produced here very soon, there's, there's some estimates
by Amazon that something like 60% of the Internet, 60 or 70%,
some crazy number in the next couple of years will be
synthetically generated information.
So AI generated information thatwe have to be more transparent
in our data sources. We have to people have to know,
(35:22):
just like with food, what is in their information.
They have to have that label. There has to be there has to be
something that says this is where it came from.
This is the timeliness, this is the credibility, this is the
completeness. We have to have that.
And, and I think to your point that we need to, we need to
recreate those connections. And that's where I think local
(35:43):
information, local, the creationof local information ecosystems
is incredibly important. Because in your case, how you
going to raise money you have toget with people right?
You have basically what you're doing.
You created a movement and I feel that you're creating a
movement with trust in media. You're creating something that
people said wow that exists yes.Therefore, it's going to be
(36:08):
requires that you get actually be people travel right and go
and meet face to face. This is about trust in media.
This is what we do. Would you be able to help us I.
Need to highlight, and I haven'tmentioned this yet, but it's
something I really want to emphasize.
This is a national security issue.
The one of the reasons I'm doingthis and I probably should have
(36:28):
highlighted this earlier is thatwe're getting taken advantage
of. It's not just by people inside
our country benefiting financially, It's not just the
tech platforms and the advertisers.
It's not just that, it's that our ecosystem is being taken
advantage of and we're being taken advantage of.
(36:49):
And that should drive us crazy. And you know, it's, it's outside
countries, it's outside players,and it's not just in the United
States. Again, this is a global issue.
And that should make you mad andthat should actually drive you
to be a better consumer, a more,not a better consumer.
I'm not going. That's not a tagline, a more
informed consumer that we, we you need to do that.
(37:12):
Because information is everything we make decision.
We said it many times in this, you know, podcast that
information is made everything. We make decision, right every
day based on information we'd receive.
Believe it or not, good or bad, we do it every day.
I've used the word in the past. I'm not sure I like it, but I'll
say, but we also have to democratize it.
So the reality is, is that thereis quality information out
(37:33):
there. If you're a business owner, you
probably probably work with the Wall Street Journal or the Dow
or there's, there's plenty of trusted data sites that will
help you do your business. The banking community has the
same thing, but in order to get to quality information, you have
to pay for it. There's it's almost all of it is
hidden and it's because it's the, and by the way, it's not
(37:53):
because these are bad organizations that are doing
this. It's the only way they can make
money. But you can't scale that.
So not everybody can afford the Wall Street Journal or the Dow,
or not everybody can can afford All Sides Media or Tangle, and
these are some incredible news sites.
But how do we democratize it? How do we make it such that
(38:13):
everyone has access to quality information?
That's what trust in media stands for exactly, and how
people they can help trust in media, if you have a message for
him, how they can get involved or how they can help you.
Because what you do is really priceless honesty.
And you know that's going to change a lot of stuff if we get
enough people to understand it, because education is big part of
(38:36):
what you. Education is a critical part is
a. Critical part of what you do and
it's going to push us forward when we educate people, you
connecting with them and then now you got to educate them and
your offer will be this is what we're going to offer you.
And we're partnered with some incredible organizations that
are focused on educating media education.
The National Association for Media Literacy and Education is
(38:57):
one of them. So I would, so I would suggest
that you contact me at my website, soitstimcoop.org where
you know, please drop me a note.I'd love to connect with you,
hear how we might get you involved.
Do you have any advice for female entrepreneurs that are
out there? They're going to start their own
business, profit or nonprofit. What advice do you have for
(39:19):
them? What advice do I have for other
women? I think I'd say do it.
And here's why. I think we hold ourselves back.
You know, you're you know, you're a working mother.
You are taking care. You're involved in elder care,
you're just starting out. And there's this view that I
(39:41):
can't, you know, we hold ourselves back.
We come up with all the reasons why we can't do this.
And what I, what I have found isthat there are so many races,
resources out there and organizations and people that
will help you. And so, you know, I of course,
you can follow a path where you're working for a company and
you're making money, but you're not happy.
(40:02):
But there is this other path that seems a little scary, but
there's so many resources out there.
And I already know that you're helping people with the
identifying those resources. So I would say just do it and
surround yourself with some folks that will will help you
along the way because they're there.
I love it. Thank you so much Ellen for your
time being here. I really appreciate I enjoyed
our conversation. I'll name so much.
(40:23):
Thank you. This is awesome.
Thank you.
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