December 11, 2024 • 29 mins
Collaboration and mergers within the credit union sector may become more prevalent in future as credit unions in Ireland and Great Britain are navigating the challenges of maintaining their local identity while achieving economies of scale. This podcast, with expert commentary from Nick Money of the Swoboda Research Centre and Paul Norgrove, CEO of Serve and Protect Credit Union and Ronaldo Hardy from the USA association NACUSO, tackles the strategic decisions credit unions are facing as growth and efficiencies become needed. The guests share their perspectives on the importance of understanding member needs, the emotional and operational hurdles of mergers, and how Credit Union Service Organisations (CUSOs) offer a promising path for growth. Explore how tailored services can create win-win scenarios and why maintaining a focus on members is crucial in an ever-changing financial landscape.
This episode also sheds light on the emotional challenges faced by credit union boards and the critical balance of power in working with CUSOs, ensuring that you come away with an better understanding of the world of credit union collaboration.
Talking Credit Unions is a regular podcast dedicated to informing credit union practitioners, leaders, and opinion formers on a variety of industry topics. The podcast is sponsored by the Swoboda Research Centre.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Collaboration is now a buzzword for credit unions,
who see the value and potential,even necessity, in working
together.
There are high-profile examplesof failure in the past in both
Ireland and Great Britain,notably in technology
initiatives, but now creditunions are regaining their
confidence with successfulinitiatives that have been
(00:21):
taking place, such as currentaccounts with Payac and Mortgage
CUSOs CUSOs being credit unionservice organisations in Ireland
and even the Greater ManchesterConsortium in England, which is
a kind of advocacy andmarketing initiative, and the
newly incorporated QShareLimited in Scotland that's
looking at back officeopportunities.
(00:42):
Put that together with, inIreland, the Credit Union
Amendment Act 2023, which hasextended options for credit
unions to collaborate.
Credit unions are nowconsidering merger alongside
CUSOs or mergers instead ofCUSOs, and what I want to
explore a little bit today ishow credit unions make these
projects successful andsustainable.
(01:04):
Bit today is how credit unionsmake these projects successful
and sustainable and where shouldour collaborative or even
merger energies focus next?
Well, earlier this year, 2024swoboda research center held a
conference in dublin withspeakers from several countries,
from cuso's to credit unionsand academia, and I thought it
would be good to talk to acouple of those speakers, unions
(01:24):
and academia, and I thought itwould be good to talk to a
couple of those speakers, plus acouple of others that have
chosen the merger route.
I started by talking to NickMoney, who's the co-founder and
director of the Swoboda ResearchCentre, and Nick put a lot of
effort into actually bringingthe conference about with his
colleague, paul Jones.
I started by asking Nick justunravel this a little bit for me
(01:45):
now about collaboration ormerger.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I think, just to be clear about what the debate
merger versus collaboration.
So what collaboration?
I don't think that debatehappens when, for example, a
credit union is struggling withsuccession planning on its board
, so it looks to merge in withsomebody else because it's not
sure how it can govern itself.
Or when there's a managementcrisis, or when the balance
sheet fails, there's a bad debtcrisis or a fraud crisis.
(02:12):
So in those situations,collaboration is very rarely
likely to be part of the answer.
The answer is likely to be whocan we transfer to who provides
a good home for our members?
The debate really happensaround these economies of scale.
That's where the challenge is.
We offer savings and loans or awider set of financial services
(02:34):
to our members, and those areproducts in a marketplace where
scale just generally means youcan keep your costs down and
have more money to invest inservices.
So how do credit unions achievethat, assuming that they're
looking to achieve that?
Well, that's where the mergercollaboration debate comes in.
We have just introduced aseries of seminars for the chief
(02:55):
execs and members of Swobodawith George Hoffheimer listeners
may know who's a credit unionstrategist in the US consultant
and George pointed us to aMichael Porter observation that
efficiency is not a strategy.
Efficiency is just, in Americanterms, table stakes.
So if we want to be able tooffer competitive products and
(03:15):
services that are attractive toour members against all those
other people out there, thebanks and others who are doing
that, we have to be efficienttoo.
But's not stress, that's just.
But that's just the basics.
And that brings you back to thediscussion about scale.
So it is important and andmerger obviously offer
potentially offers that you puttwo, two together, you get four,
four, bigger than two, lots oftwo and and so there is that.
(03:37):
But there are some challengesthat come with it.
You know mergers have a in, notjust in the credit union sector
but in the corporate world, ashave a patchy record because all
sorts of things that can get inthe way.
Suddenly, it turns out thecultures of two organisations
aren't very compatible orthere's some struggles to make
the other things operationallyconnect.
But the big thing for creditunions, I think, is the risk and
it's not inevitable, but it's arisk that you lose the local
(04:00):
identity and you lose theconnection with the members.
At that point there's a realproblem If you start to lose
patches of your common bondbecause you just don't
understand them, got no affinitywith them, aren't interested in
them, then that's a problem.
So that's one risk of a merger,and another risk as well is
(04:20):
just that managing a biggerorganization means the board and
the management team tend to getmore internally focused on how
to manage their organizationproperly and they get less
focused on the members.
A merger does carry risks.
So movement-wide considerationas well, which is that diversity
is one of our strengths.
Both in Britain and Ireland butalso in other countries around
(04:40):
the world, you've got multiplecredit unions, you've got
different business models,different ideas, different ways
of doing things Makes you a bitmore resilient, actually, to
everything falling apart.
You know, when there's aproblem happens, some of the
models that we're operating maybe better placed than others to
(05:01):
survive and, as we know, creditunions informally collaborate
really, really well.
So the more you voices you'vegot, the more ideas you've got
nick.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Surely a larger business or a larger credit
union is going to be moresuccessful than a smaller one,
or is that just an assumption?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I can't I can't remember the statistic now, but
a huge chunk of american creditunions which we always think of
as enormous.
But but actually there's quitea segment of the American credit
unions which are not enormousthey are smaller than many Irish
and even some British creditunions and they're able.
But they're offering currentaccounts, they're offering
credit cards, they're offeringmortgages, they're offering
wealth management Because thereis a CUSO, a credit union
(05:47):
service organisation primarily,but potentially, potentially a
private provider which isoffering to a range of credit
unions those services so theycan afford it and that correct,
that means that they aresustainable because they're
offering a proper offer to theirmembers but there are some
challenges with it uh, oneadvantage ronaldo has is that
his organization and his membersbecause he runs a you the
membership organization forthose CUSOs.
they're serving a continent youknow whatever, I don't know 300
(06:10):
million people, ireland's 5million people, britain is 70,
and the credit union movement inBritain is relatively small.
So the scale opportunities forthose credit union movements are
different from the US.
But there's other ways, and sothe CUSOs themselves will have
economies of scale.
(06:31):
So one of the challenges, forexample, is how many CUSOs can
you have?
So in Ireland they're lookingat a mortgage CUSO.
Great idea.
If you're a credit union thatdidn't like what that mortgage
CUSO was offering, thereprobably isn't room in the
market for there to be anothermortgage CUSO that's doing
things differently.
So there's kind of a little bitof all or nothing, really, you
(06:52):
do it yourself or you buy fromthe CUSO, or there probably
isn't space to do more.
But I think there's alsosomething culturally more
challenging about it.
You've got to give up controlto somebody else.
You know board's comfortablewith that.
Um, how much control are theyprepared to concede?
And if they're not prepared toallow a organization to manage
(07:16):
itself, then it's it's going toreally struggle, because if it's
constantly got to go back to Idon't know 12 boards to get a
decision every time it wants tospend to buy a photocopier, then
it's going to really struggleto operate effectively as a
business.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Ronaldo Hardy is an executive powerhouse.
He's driven by a mission tobuild leaders.
He's driven by a mission tobuild leaders.
He's also the president andchief executive of NACUSO, which
is a US national associationfocused on cultivating
collaboration, inspiringinnovation and strengthening
credit unions in the UnitedStates.
I asked Ronaldo what is it?
Speaker 4 (08:03):
then, about credit unions and collaboration instead
of merger.
For instance, and a lot of mywork here in the States are to
create the tools and theresources to strengthen small
credit union sustainability,because I do believe there are
instances that there arecommunities in particular that
are served better by smallerinstitutions that understand
them well.
However, the other side of thatstrategically sometimes coming
(08:26):
together builds a larger,stronger institution that's able
to provide adequate resources,access to technology, things of
that nature that are alsonecessary.
So I believe in the balance.
I think that credit unions needto be familiar with where they
are in their story and alsoknowledgeable about what's
(08:50):
needed next for their membershipbase, and I think those two
things become a driver ofwhether or not a strategic
merger is the right direction.
Sometimes it is when you'vebeen able to determine that
viability alone, standing alone,is not going to happen.
Then it is better to cometogether to build something
(09:10):
better.
A merger should always have somelevel of strategic thought
placed into it, and they workbest when there are strong
conversations about why are wedoing this?
What do we hope to accomplish?
How do we make sure there arebenefits to our members, because
if that's not the case, weshouldn't be doing it.
(09:32):
And how do we protect thethings that matter to those who
are part of this?
Because, you know, creditunions, they are democratic
institutions and when I say thatyou know, of course I'm not
(09:56):
talking political party.
It's the process of democracy,of that ownership being spread
out across the smaller one,right and when it should be
about.
How do we go about this comingtogether, being collaborative,
in a way that's strategicallythought through so that
everybody wins?
That to me, excuse me, is whata merger should always be, no
(10:18):
matter the size difference.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Ronaldo, there must be some cases that have crossed
your desk that look like they'rejust right for merger and not
necessarily right for CUSOs.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
So I'll give an example.
A credit union that is builtfor firefighters has to
understand how they work, howthey're paid, what that looks
like.
They often have a friend who'sa firefighter, right, so he
works like 10 days a monthbecause they're 24-hour shifts.
But a lot of firefighters arealso entrepreneurs, so they use
(10:53):
that career to give themselvesaccess to additional time so
they can build things thatmatter to them.
A credit union that is servingfirefighters understands that
about their work.
So even when they're lending tothem, they're thinking about
what's the ebbs and flows of howthey get it done.
So sometimes it's like a yes andno.
People are people.
(11:14):
There are elements of people inthe UK and Ireland that are
just like people in the UnitedStates, because people are
people.
But there can be some uniquedifferences, based upon zip code
, based upon vocation, that cangive a different level of
information to the leadershipserving them, which is why to me
(11:35):
, like when we're comingtogether to do a merger, that's
why they need to be strategic innature, and those are the
conversations that are critical.
A lot of times theconversations don't elevate in
the ways in which they shouldaround that, and when they do,
then I believe they create thebest win-win scenario for the
two previous organizations, nowthe new combined organization
(11:56):
and, ultimately, the members whoare being served as a result of
that institution.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
How do groups arrive at a decision that they want to
start at CUSO?
How do they make that decision?
What sort of things galvanizestheir thinking?
Speaker 4 (12:12):
We can accomplish something together that maybe we
could not have done on our own,and it's not about a merger,
but it's about combiningresource to build something that
addresses those things Imentioned.
Can we reduce our operationaloverhead by combining resource
to do something better together?
Can we increase our efficiencyby combining our resource to do
(12:34):
something better, whether we'rebuilding new technology or we
are disrupting markets thatalready exist with a better
solution, here's wherecollaboration strengthens the
whole system.
There's still ways to worktogether to collectively move
forward, and I'm excited.
I believe, that we're going tosee the acceleration of the CUSO
model.
It's already growing in ourstates.
(12:56):
We have a very sophisticatedprocess around it, but I see the
opportunity for even greaterstrength emerging in that model
for us, and I know that you allhave some interest there as well
.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Ronaldo.
Entering into mergerdiscussions with another credit
union inevitably is going tobring the emotional side to the
fore.
You're going to possibly losesome staff as a result of scale
economies.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Because you're trying to figure out, okay, what will
we need?
Who do we need?
I mean, a lot of times it doescreate scenarios where people
are out of work, you know,because the redundancies and the
staffing are not necessary, andthat's the hard part of doing
this, you know, which is whysome take advantage of these
opportunities to develop QSOsinstead of looking at that
pathway, because there arepeople connected to this.
(13:43):
We're ultimately responsiblefor managing our organizations
in a way that protects ourmembership, because that's the
interest that we put, and weelevate, above every other
interest.
But we don't deny the fact thatthere are people that are
helping us to do that and we dowant to do all that we can to
take care of them.
I have seen, as a result ofmergers, that you know that's
(14:06):
one of the casualties thatexists is that some great people
are going to be displaced inthe process, and that's why I
think that we have to have abalance to how we approach it.
It can't all be like, yeah, weshould just merge.
Balance to how we approach it.
It can't all be like, yeah, weshould just merge.
And sometimes you need to thinkabout how do we keep
organizations still thriving inthe midst of what can be a
(14:27):
challenging environment, becauseconsumer expectations are
moving at, I believe, thefastest pace ever, the fastest
pace ever, and I don't thinkthat it's going to slow down.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
So, ronaldo, to recap , what's driving all this is
credit unions that have gotgreat aspirations but just don't
have the wherewithal to be ableto achieve those additional
services and facilities fortheir members on their own.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Absolutely In-house.
They didn't have the expertiseor they may not have had the
financials to truly build thatin-house, but by spreading that
across multiple credit unionsthrough a QSO and now they gain
access to an area of opportunityfor their community, for their
membership, that needs it.
Those very traditional modelswork.
(15:15):
So payment systems lendingindirect was big for us.
Mortgage lending businesslending great opportunity there.
Also, like I said, wealthmanagement so giving our members
access to the tools that theyneed to manage their investments
, better Insurance these arethings that already exist on the
(15:36):
market.
But credit unions were likeokay, can we compete and can we
provide either a better or lowerprice solution that our members
truly need?
Those traditional models willwork and work and work and
they'll never stop workingbecause they're needed.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Ronaldo, that's really helpful.
Your details to our listenerswho are listening here in
Ireland and in the UnitedKingdom who may be interested in
talking to some of the existingCUSOs in the United States.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
We'd love to connect you so that you can learn and
grow from the credit unions herethat are doing the work.
Thanks very much, ronaldo.
We'll be in touch and I hope tohear from you again soon.
You're welcome, thank you.
So Ronaldo's quite happy toshare his information with you.
Dead easy to find NACUSON-A-C-U-S-O National Association
of Credit Union ServiceOrganizations Just Google NACUSO
(16:31):
and up it comes.
They've got a very helpfulwebsite, right down to including
Ronaldo's own email address,and I asked him later on and he
said he's very happy to connectanybody up that's interested in
either a specific subject onCUSOs or indeed to talk to the
credit unions themselves in theUnited States that are involved
(16:51):
in CUSOs.
Well, it wouldn't be a properpodcast on mergers and
collaboration if I didn'tmention the merger of Serve and
Protect Credit Union, which isone of the largest credit unions
in Britain, and the NationalFiresavers Credit Union, took
(17:13):
place in October 2024.
The National Firesavers hasbeen a trusted financial ally
for its members since itsjourney began in 1998 and, prior
to the merger, serve andProtect Credit Union proudly
reached a remarkable milestonein September of being one of the
few British credit unions with100 million pounds in total
(17:34):
assets.
I spoke to Paul Norgrave, theChief Executive Officer of Serve
and Protect Credit Union to tryand get down to the basics on
merger.
But I particularly wanted toknow what is the most difficult
part of mergers.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Oh well, start with the big one, chris.
I think it's the stuff that youalmost can't measure.
That's complicated.
I think there's enough guidanceout there and we all know how
to run credit unions in terms ofAlmost the process side of it.
So if you just break it downinto numbers and accounts and
(18:15):
data and bringing that acrossand transferring it, that's the
easy bit.
Accounts and data and bringingthat across and transferring it,
that's the easy bit.
The real complicated bit is themeeting of minds at the start
and having the conversationsaround.
You know, collaboration inessence to me is losing a little
bit or giving a little bit ofway to win as a collective.
And once that happens and yourealize them, the benefits are
(18:40):
there for the members ultimately.
You know we went backwardsthrough the people, so we went.
Does it benefit the members?
Yes, what's the next steps?
How do the boards align andwhat happens there?
And then the sort of paid staffwho run the credit union.
But ultimately, ultimately, asa people-first driven approach,
(19:01):
and once all that's broadlyagreed, the actual execution of
it is quite cold and mechanical.
But I think you know theessence.
The complicated bit is thenuances, the difficulties of
doing it.
There's enough guidance outthere.
You can pick up the phone andspeak to someone and say how do
you take data from one systemand put it in another?
(19:22):
Um, your auditors will help, uh, in different ways.
But ultimately the mostcomplicated bit is the meshing
meshing of cultures, um.
But again, I think, in terms ofchoosing merger partners, I
think that's important to knowwhy you're doing it.
And strategic mergers for ushave to fit within our CERN,
(19:47):
protect family, our common bond,and they're done purposeful.
It's not that we don't want toextend our services beyond that,
but I think the very notion ofa credit union is a common bond
and its identity, and I think ifyou have some form of common
identity, everything just flowsfrom there.
But yeah, the most complicatedbit is the people, and not
(20:09):
everybody wins and benefits, butif the majority of the members
do, from both organisations,then it's the right thing to do
in our eyes then it's the rightthing to do in our eyes, Paul.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
it must be difficult for those credit unions that
still have the actual foundersof their credit union on the
board of directors, moving intoa really modern era of merger
and collaboration.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
We are standing on the shoulders of giants in many
ways.
You know anyone who finds acredit union, and particularly a
career in a credit union.
You know they love it and theyfind something.
But there was people at thestart who it wasn't a career in
a credit union.
You know they love it and theyfind something.
But there was people at thestart who it wasn't a career, it
was a passion, it was, you know, advocacy for a community,
whatever that community mighthave been.
(20:51):
Um, but the interesting thingand we still have a founder
director of one of our creditunions on our board, so we're
classed as now 21 years old, butour roots go back to the mid
80s and seven credit unionsmerged in 2003.
But one of the originalfounding directors is still on
our board and he coined awonderful phrase when we started
(21:11):
talking about mergers morerecently in 2021, about the with
them's, the.
What's in it for me is anultimate thing.
The members, as you quiterightly pointed out what am I
getting on my savings?
How cheap are your loans?
How do I do business?
There's actually quite a uniqueposition.
(21:32):
I think that is a blessing and acurse in some ways about having
founders around Cause, like Isaid, people find credit unions
and they're passionate aboutthem and they love them and
they've been kind to me.
You've got to be willing toalmost give something away.
You know, the seven creditunions that founded police
credit union, as it was then allgave up their names, all gave
(21:53):
up a little bit of something.
We did end up with a board of24, which is wild in these
current days, but it was becauseMidwest Police Credit Union had
additional permission, so theygot six and the other six credit
unions got three, you know, andwe were fairly small by
comparison to what we are todaythen, but I think it's that the
(22:14):
real difficult thing is actuallythe volunteers who have and
quite rightly so are the veryfoundation of our movement and
they have a sense of belonging,and we all do, and when you've
led an organization, it becomespart of you and it becomes
something you're passionateabout.
But it's also knowing when itneeds a little bit more or it
needs a little bit different toto thrive, beyond where it can
(22:37):
get to.
Um, and we've been blessed tohave people aligned through all
our mergers.
So, whether it be the foundingmerger with Durham Constabulary
in 2021, where we had a founderinvolved in that.
And then also, you know, theNational Fire Saver merger more
recently where you know theirchair recognised that the
ultimate potential peddlingquicker and quicker to stand
(22:59):
still where ultimately, you know, it's not a size matters debate
, it's about scale and acollective sense of what it can
be delivered to the members, andthat mindset within founders
and boards is so, so difficult.
But once it's there and peopleare open to it, it becomes part
of that entity's dna and that'spart of the serve and protect
(23:21):
DNA.
Now our board and our team andhopefully our members, recognize
that we've only got better formergers and it's allowed us to
be more diverse in our thinkingand product delivery as well.
So I think really always hingeson on the board and with them.
But if they can take a stepback and think if only we were
(23:44):
in this position when we foundedit, what did we think beyond
there, I think we end up in theright place for the members,
which is ultimately, as I saidin the first, uh, first comments
, the most important thing in amutual is the member paul,
what's your view on CUSOs creditunion service organizations and
(24:05):
how do they fit alongsidemergers or even instead of
mergers?
oh, that's a good one, I think.
I think they're different andI'll try and take them in two
steps.
So I think mergers are animmediate, very tangible way to
scale one or two organizationsinto one, to hopefully build a
(24:27):
more sustainable organization,and I think they are right.
Where credit unions run intobarriers of growth, where you
know, if you take a credit unionover the last 10 years, if it's
not grown and you know theeconomic environment has been
fairly stable until the last two, if it was unable to grow and
(24:50):
become more sustainable during Idon't want to say the glory
years of, you know, the 2010s to2020, before the world got
flipped on its head, if you werestruggling to be sustainable at
that point, when most thingswere fairly stable, that's an
indication that people shouldconsider mergers.
I think the impact of CUSOs orcredit union service
(25:12):
organisations could be huge.
I think we have to break downthe misconceptions I hear
sometimes.
Credit unions aren't allowed toown organizations or um.
Our trade body uh, with my abqhat on is exactly that.
It's um.
You know it's a society ownedby credit union.
Kusos can operate in exactlythe same model.
(25:35):
There is question marks on oninvestment and ability for
credit unions to actuallycooperate and collaborate.
But it is possible, and I thinkmy knowledge of CUSOs before
they've become the commercialpowerhouse over in the states,
for example, is they're oftenspun up to solve problems or
(25:58):
common challenges, and I thinkyou know I look at the maturity
of our sector and it is stillrelatively young and
underdeveloped.
That's what we need to startwith is CUSOs tackling common
enemies or common challengesthat we would all benefit from?
So we're not reinventing it 10times over, but I think that's a
starting point and there aresome fantastic people in our
(26:22):
sector who are making inroads towhat that might look like,
which is really, really exciting, and hopefully we'll be part of
that.
But it's either to do newthings that we can't do on our
own or to tackle challenges thatwe all face and can't avoid,
and I think that's how we'll getsome traction in the kuso
(26:44):
market.
But to my knowledge, there aresome uh, fledgling kusos in in
discussions and and operating,but not ones that are sort of
more broadly known, where youcan go and either acquire
services as a customer or havethe opportunity to become a
member owner, which, or have theopportunity to become a member
(27:06):
owner, which ultimately skin inthe game creates interest and it
also means that there's care,and that is the root of all
credit unions being successful.
If you have individuals thatcare, they often thrive and
they're often successful.
So CUSOs are going to needcredit unions with skin in the
game so they care about whatthat CUSO delivers Rather than
(27:26):
sort of standing there andpotentially chipping away at
what it could do better.
They will make it do better ifit needs to.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Paul Norgrave.
Thanks very much.
Brilliant.
Thank you for having me on,chris, and the final word goes
to Nick Money Swoboda's there,all about informing credit
unions on change andtransformation.
This sounds like one of thebiggest changes and
(27:53):
transformations that we've hadfor a while.
Where do you see possibly goingin the next five years
regarding this very subject ofmergers, collaboration and QSOs,
where do you see it going?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Well, I think we're going to see both.
I mean, we're already seeing,and I think Ireland's ahead of
Britain in both fronts at themoment.
There's been an awful lot ofconsolidation in the Irish
movement in the last dozen years, initially, in particular,
driven by the regulator, butmore recently driven by credit
unions, determining some of thearguments you were making
earlier, chris.
Smaller credit unions feelingthat they will get their members
(28:27):
a better deal if they can joinin with somebody else who's got
a bit more capability and reducerisk to their members.
So those mergers are justhappening and some Swoboda
members, like Dundalks, justrecently had a merger with
Carrot and Cross.
So these are still live thingsthat are happening.
(28:47):
So they are starting to happenin Britain as well as in Ireland
.
But I think collaboration inIreland they've got this
fantastic initiative calledCultivate where there's very
many credit unions offering aparticular loan to farmers In
Britain slightly differentCollaboration is slightly
different collaboration slightlydifferent.
I think Sound Pound in GreaterManchester is a really
interesting initiative, more onthe advocacy side at the moment
but perhaps starting to get intoservice provision.
(29:08):
I think the Brits are sort ofstarting to get moving and the
Irish are already on, you know,getting ahead.
So what we'll see in the nextthree years, I guess, is the
success of some of thoseinitiatives.
And one of the things we'dreally like to do in Svoboda is
do some looking looking at someof those initiatives as case
studies, perhaps working outwhat best practice is.
And just to your earlier pointabout this emotional challenge
(29:29):
for boards, that's oneconversation.
It's a live conversation we'rehaving at the moment as to how
we can get into helping creditunions understand how they have
a relationship with CUSOs, wherethe right balance of power is
how to manage the risk andopportunity.
Collaboration is now a buzzword for credit unions,
who see the value and potential,even necessity, in working
together.
There are high-profile examplesof failure in the past in both
Ireland and Great Britain,notably in technology
initiatives, but now creditunions are regaining their
confidence with successfulinitiatives that have been
(00:21):
taking place, such as currentaccounts with Payac and Mortgage
CUSOs CUSOs being credit unionservice organisations in Ireland
and even the Greater ManchesterConsortium in England, which is
a kind of advocacy andmarketing initiative, and the
newly incorporated QShareLimited in Scotland that's
looking at back officeopportunities.
(00:42):
Put that together with, inIreland, the Credit Union
Amendment Act 2023, which hasextended options for credit
unions to collaborate.
Credit unions are nowconsidering merger alongside
CUSOs or mergers instead ofCUSOs, and what I want to
explore a little bit today ishow credit unions make these
projects successful andsustainable.
(01:04):
Bit today is how credit unionsmake these projects successful
and sustainable and where shouldour collaborative or even
merger energies focus next?
Well, earlier this year, 2024swoboda research center held a
conference in dublin withspeakers from several countries,
from cuso's to credit unionsand academia, and I thought it
would be good to talk to acouple of those speakers, unions
(01:24):
and academia, and I thought itwould be good to talk to a
couple of those speakers, plus acouple of others that have
chosen the merger route.
I started by talking to NickMoney, who's the co-founder and
director of the Swoboda ResearchCentre, and Nick put a lot of
effort into actually bringingthe conference about with his
colleague, paul Jones.
I started by asking Nick justunravel this a little bit for me
(01:45):
now about collaboration ormerger.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I think, just to be clear about what the debate
merger versus collaboration.
So what collaboration?
I don't think that debatehappens when, for example, a
credit union is struggling withsuccession planning on its board
, so it looks to merge in withsomebody else because it's not
sure how it can govern itself.
Or when there's a managementcrisis, or when the balance
sheet fails, there's a bad debtcrisis or a fraud crisis.
(02:12):
So in those situations,collaboration is very rarely
likely to be part of the answer.
The answer is likely to be whocan we transfer to who provides
a good home for our members?
The debate really happensaround these economies of scale.
That's where the challenge is.
We offer savings and loans or awider set of financial services
(02:34):
to our members, and those areproducts in a marketplace where
scale just generally means youcan keep your costs down and
have more money to invest inservices.
So how do credit unions achievethat, assuming that they're
looking to achieve that?
Well, that's where the mergercollaboration debate comes in.
We have just introduced aseries of seminars for the chief
(02:55):
execs and members of Swobodawith George Hoffheimer listeners
may know who's a credit unionstrategist in the US consultant
and George pointed us to aMichael Porter observation that
efficiency is not a strategy.
Efficiency is just, in Americanterms, table stakes.
So if we want to be able tooffer competitive products and
(03:15):
services that are attractive toour members against all those
other people out there, thebanks and others who are doing
that, we have to be efficienttoo.
But's not stress, that's just.
But that's just the basics.
And that brings you back to thediscussion about scale.
So it is important and andmerger obviously offer
potentially offers that you puttwo, two together, you get four,
four, bigger than two, lots oftwo and and so there is that.
(03:37):
But there are some challengesthat come with it.
You know mergers have a in, notjust in the credit union sector
but in the corporate world, ashave a patchy record because all
sorts of things that can get inthe way.
Suddenly, it turns out thecultures of two organisations
aren't very compatible orthere's some struggles to make
the other things operationallyconnect.
But the big thing for creditunions, I think, is the risk and
it's not inevitable, but it's arisk that you lose the local
(04:00):
identity and you lose theconnection with the members.
At that point there's a realproblem If you start to lose
patches of your common bondbecause you just don't
understand them, got no affinitywith them, aren't interested in
them, then that's a problem.
So that's one risk of a merger,and another risk as well is
(04:20):
just that managing a biggerorganization means the board and
the management team tend to getmore internally focused on how
to manage their organizationproperly and they get less
focused on the members.
A merger does carry risks.
So movement-wide considerationas well, which is that diversity
is one of our strengths.
Both in Britain and Ireland butalso in other countries around
(04:40):
the world, you've got multiplecredit unions, you've got
different business models,different ideas, different ways
of doing things Makes you a bitmore resilient, actually, to
everything falling apart.
You know, when there's aproblem happens, some of the
models that we're operating maybe better placed than others to
(05:01):
survive and, as we know, creditunions informally collaborate
really, really well.
So the more you voices you'vegot, the more ideas you've got
nick.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Surely a larger business or a larger credit
union is going to be moresuccessful than a smaller one,
or is that just an assumption?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I can't I can't remember the statistic now, but
a huge chunk of american creditunions which we always think of
as enormous.
But but actually there's quitea segment of the American credit
unions which are not enormousthey are smaller than many Irish
and even some British creditunions and they're able.
But they're offering currentaccounts, they're offering
credit cards, they're offeringmortgages, they're offering
wealth management Because thereis a CUSO, a credit union
(05:47):
service organisation primarily,but potentially, potentially a
private provider which isoffering to a range of credit
unions those services so theycan afford it and that correct,
that means that they aresustainable because they're
offering a proper offer to theirmembers but there are some
challenges with it uh, oneadvantage ronaldo has is that
his organization and his membersbecause he runs a you the
membership organization forthose CUSOs.
they're serving a continent youknow whatever, I don't know 300
(06:10):
million people, ireland's 5million people, britain is 70,
and the credit union movement inBritain is relatively small.
So the scale opportunities forthose credit union movements are
different from the US.
But there's other ways, and sothe CUSOs themselves will have
economies of scale.
(06:31):
So one of the challenges, forexample, is how many CUSOs can
you have?
So in Ireland they're lookingat a mortgage CUSO.
Great idea.
If you're a credit union thatdidn't like what that mortgage
CUSO was offering, thereprobably isn't room in the
market for there to be anothermortgage CUSO that's doing
things differently.
So there's kind of a little bitof all or nothing, really, you
(06:52):
do it yourself or you buy fromthe CUSO, or there probably
isn't space to do more.
But I think there's alsosomething culturally more
challenging about it.
You've got to give up controlto somebody else.
You know board's comfortablewith that.
Um, how much control are theyprepared to concede?
And if they're not prepared toallow a organization to manage
(07:16):
itself, then it's it's going toreally struggle, because if it's
constantly got to go back to Idon't know 12 boards to get a
decision every time it wants tospend to buy a photocopier, then
it's going to really struggleto operate effectively as a
business.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Ronaldo Hardy is an executive powerhouse.
He's driven by a mission tobuild leaders.
He's driven by a mission tobuild leaders.
He's also the president andchief executive of NACUSO, which
is a US national associationfocused on cultivating
collaboration, inspiringinnovation and strengthening
credit unions in the UnitedStates.
I asked Ronaldo what is it?
Speaker 4 (08:03):
then, about credit unions and collaboration instead
of merger.
For instance, and a lot of mywork here in the States are to
create the tools and theresources to strengthen small
credit union sustainability,because I do believe there are
instances that there arecommunities in particular that
are served better by smallerinstitutions that understand
them well.
However, the other side of thatstrategically sometimes coming
(08:26):
together builds a larger,stronger institution that's able
to provide adequate resources,access to technology, things of
that nature that are alsonecessary.
So I believe in the balance.
I think that credit unions needto be familiar with where they
are in their story and alsoknowledgeable about what's
(08:50):
needed next for their membershipbase, and I think those two
things become a driver ofwhether or not a strategic
merger is the right direction.
Sometimes it is when you'vebeen able to determine that
viability alone, standing alone,is not going to happen.
Then it is better to cometogether to build something
(09:10):
better.
A merger should always have somelevel of strategic thought
placed into it, and they workbest when there are strong
conversations about why are wedoing this?
What do we hope to accomplish?
How do we make sure there arebenefits to our members, because
if that's not the case, weshouldn't be doing it.
(09:32):
And how do we protect thethings that matter to those who
are part of this?
Because, you know, creditunions, they are democratic
institutions and when I say thatyou know, of course I'm not
(09:56):
talking political party.
It's the process of democracy,of that ownership being spread
out across the smaller one,right and when it should be
about.
How do we go about this comingtogether, being collaborative,
in a way that's strategicallythought through so that
everybody wins?
That to me, excuse me, is whata merger should always be, no
(10:18):
matter the size difference.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Ronaldo, there must be some cases that have crossed
your desk that look like they'rejust right for merger and not
necessarily right for CUSOs.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
So I'll give an example.
A credit union that is builtfor firefighters has to
understand how they work, howthey're paid, what that looks
like.
They often have a friend who'sa firefighter, right, so he
works like 10 days a monthbecause they're 24-hour shifts.
But a lot of firefighters arealso entrepreneurs, so they use
(10:53):
that career to give themselvesaccess to additional time so
they can build things thatmatter to them.
A credit union that is servingfirefighters understands that
about their work.
So even when they're lending tothem, they're thinking about
what's the ebbs and flows of howthey get it done.
So sometimes it's like a yes andno.
People are people.
(11:14):
There are elements of people inthe UK and Ireland that are
just like people in the UnitedStates, because people are
people.
But there can be some uniquedifferences, based upon zip code
, based upon vocation, that cangive a different level of
information to the leadershipserving them, which is why to me
(11:35):
, like when we're comingtogether to do a merger, that's
why they need to be strategic innature, and those are the
conversations that are critical.
A lot of times theconversations don't elevate in
the ways in which they shouldaround that, and when they do,
then I believe they create thebest win-win scenario for the
two previous organizations, nowthe new combined organization
(11:56):
and, ultimately, the members whoare being served as a result of
that institution.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
How do groups arrive at a decision that they want to
start at CUSO?
How do they make that decision?
What sort of things galvanizestheir thinking?
Speaker 4 (12:12):
We can accomplish something together that maybe we
could not have done on our own,and it's not about a merger,
but it's about combiningresource to build something that
addresses those things Imentioned.
Can we reduce our operationaloverhead by combining resource
to do something better together?
Can we increase our efficiencyby combining our resource to do
(12:34):
something better, whether we'rebuilding new technology or we
are disrupting markets thatalready exist with a better
solution, here's wherecollaboration strengthens the
whole system.
There's still ways to worktogether to collectively move
forward, and I'm excited.
I believe, that we're going tosee the acceleration of the CUSO
model.
It's already growing in ourstates.
(12:56):
We have a very sophisticatedprocess around it, but I see the
opportunity for even greaterstrength emerging in that model
for us, and I know that you allhave some interest there as well
.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Ronaldo.
Entering into mergerdiscussions with another credit
union inevitably is going tobring the emotional side to the
fore.
You're going to possibly losesome staff as a result of scale
economies.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Because you're trying to figure out, okay, what will
we need?
Who do we need?
I mean, a lot of times it doescreate scenarios where people
are out of work, you know,because the redundancies and the
staffing are not necessary, andthat's the hard part of doing
this, you know, which is whysome take advantage of these
opportunities to develop QSOsinstead of looking at that
pathway, because there arepeople connected to this.
(13:43):
We're ultimately responsiblefor managing our organizations
in a way that protects ourmembership, because that's the
interest that we put, and weelevate, above every other
interest.
But we don't deny the fact thatthere are people that are
helping us to do that and we dowant to do all that we can to
take care of them.
I have seen, as a result ofmergers, that you know that's
(14:06):
one of the casualties thatexists is that some great people
are going to be displaced inthe process, and that's why I
think that we have to have abalance to how we approach it.
It can't all be like, yeah, weshould just merge.
Balance to how we approach it.
It can't all be like, yeah, weshould just merge.
And sometimes you need to thinkabout how do we keep
organizations still thriving inthe midst of what can be a
(14:27):
challenging environment, becauseconsumer expectations are
moving at, I believe, thefastest pace ever, the fastest
pace ever, and I don't thinkthat it's going to slow down.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
So, ronaldo, to recap , what's driving all this is
credit unions that have gotgreat aspirations but just don't
have the wherewithal to be ableto achieve those additional
services and facilities fortheir members on their own.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Absolutely In-house.
They didn't have the expertiseor they may not have had the
financials to truly build thatin-house, but by spreading that
across multiple credit unionsthrough a QSO and now they gain
access to an area of opportunityfor their community, for their
membership, that needs it.
Those very traditional modelswork.
(15:15):
So payment systems lendingindirect was big for us.
Mortgage lending businesslending great opportunity there.
Also, like I said, wealthmanagement so giving our members
access to the tools that theyneed to manage their investments
, better Insurance these arethings that already exist on the
(15:36):
market.
But credit unions were likeokay, can we compete and can we
provide either a better or lowerprice solution that our members
truly need?
Those traditional models willwork and work and work and
they'll never stop workingbecause they're needed.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Ronaldo, that's really helpful.
Your details to our listenerswho are listening here in
Ireland and in the UnitedKingdom who may be interested in
talking to some of the existingCUSOs in the United States.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
We'd love to connect you so that you can learn and
grow from the credit unions herethat are doing the work.
Thanks very much, ronaldo.
We'll be in touch and I hope tohear from you again soon.
You're welcome, thank you.
So Ronaldo's quite happy toshare his information with you.
Dead easy to find NACUSON-A-C-U-S-O National Association
of Credit Union ServiceOrganizations Just Google NACUSO
(16:31):
and up it comes.
They've got a very helpfulwebsite, right down to including
Ronaldo's own email address,and I asked him later on and he
said he's very happy to connectanybody up that's interested in
either a specific subject onCUSOs or indeed to talk to the
credit unions themselves in theUnited States that are involved
(16:51):
in CUSOs.
Well, it wouldn't be a properpodcast on mergers and
collaboration if I didn'tmention the merger of Serve and
Protect Credit Union, which isone of the largest credit unions
in Britain, and the NationalFiresavers Credit Union, took
(17:13):
place in October 2024.
The National Firesavers hasbeen a trusted financial ally
for its members since itsjourney began in 1998 and, prior
to the merger, serve andProtect Credit Union proudly
reached a remarkable milestonein September of being one of the
few British credit unions with100 million pounds in total
(17:34):
assets.
I spoke to Paul Norgrave, theChief Executive Officer of Serve
and Protect Credit Union to tryand get down to the basics on
merger.
But I particularly wanted toknow what is the most difficult
part of mergers.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Oh well, start with the big one, chris.
I think it's the stuff that youalmost can't measure.
That's complicated.
I think there's enough guidanceout there and we all know how
to run credit unions in terms ofAlmost the process side of it.
So if you just break it downinto numbers and accounts and
(18:15):
data and bringing that acrossand transferring it, that's the
easy bit.
Accounts and data and bringingthat across and transferring it,
that's the easy bit.
The real complicated bit is themeeting of minds at the start
and having the conversationsaround.
You know, collaboration inessence to me is losing a little
bit or giving a little bit ofway to win as a collective.
And once that happens and yourealize them, the benefits are
(18:40):
there for the members ultimately.
You know we went backwardsthrough the people, so we went.
Does it benefit the members?
Yes, what's the next steps?
How do the boards align andwhat happens there?
And then the sort of paid staffwho run the credit union.
But ultimately, ultimately, asa people-first driven approach,
(19:01):
and once all that's broadlyagreed, the actual execution of
it is quite cold and mechanical.
But I think you know theessence.
The complicated bit is thenuances, the difficulties of
doing it.
There's enough guidance outthere.
You can pick up the phone andspeak to someone and say how do
you take data from one systemand put it in another?
(19:22):
Um, your auditors will help, uh, in different ways.
But ultimately the mostcomplicated bit is the meshing
meshing of cultures, um.
But again, I think, in terms ofchoosing merger partners, I
think that's important to knowwhy you're doing it.
And strategic mergers for ushave to fit within our CERN,
(19:47):
protect family, our common bond,and they're done purposeful.
It's not that we don't want toextend our services beyond that,
but I think the very notion ofa credit union is a common bond
and its identity, and I think ifyou have some form of common
identity, everything just flowsfrom there.
But yeah, the most complicatedbit is the people, and not
(20:09):
everybody wins and benefits, butif the majority of the members
do, from both organisations,then it's the right thing to do
in our eyes then it's the rightthing to do in our eyes, Paul.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
it must be difficult for those credit unions that
still have the actual foundersof their credit union on the
board of directors, moving intoa really modern era of merger
and collaboration.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
We are standing on the shoulders of giants in many
ways.
You know anyone who finds acredit union, and particularly a
career in a credit union.
You know they love it and theyfind something.
But there was people at thestart who it wasn't a career in
a credit union.
You know they love it and theyfind something.
But there was people at thestart who it wasn't a career, it
was a passion, it was, you know, advocacy for a community,
whatever that community mighthave been.
(20:51):
Um, but the interesting thingand we still have a founder
director of one of our creditunions on our board, so we're
classed as now 21 years old, butour roots go back to the mid
80s and seven credit unionsmerged in 2003.
But one of the originalfounding directors is still on
our board and he coined awonderful phrase when we started
(21:11):
talking about mergers morerecently in 2021, about the with
them's, the.
What's in it for me is anultimate thing.
The members, as you quiterightly pointed out what am I
getting on my savings?
How cheap are your loans?
How do I do business?
There's actually quite a uniqueposition.
(21:32):
I think that is a blessing and acurse in some ways about having
founders around Cause, like Isaid, people find credit unions
and they're passionate aboutthem and they love them and
they've been kind to me.
You've got to be willing toalmost give something away.
You know, the seven creditunions that founded police
credit union, as it was then allgave up their names, all gave
(21:53):
up a little bit of something.
We did end up with a board of24, which is wild in these
current days, but it was becauseMidwest Police Credit Union had
additional permission, so theygot six and the other six credit
unions got three, you know, andwe were fairly small by
comparison to what we are todaythen, but I think it's that the
(22:14):
real difficult thing is actuallythe volunteers who have and
quite rightly so are the veryfoundation of our movement and
they have a sense of belonging,and we all do, and when you've
led an organization, it becomespart of you and it becomes
something you're passionateabout.
But it's also knowing when itneeds a little bit more or it
needs a little bit different toto thrive, beyond where it can
(22:37):
get to.
Um, and we've been blessed tohave people aligned through all
our mergers.
So, whether it be the foundingmerger with Durham Constabulary
in 2021, where we had a founderinvolved in that.
And then also, you know, theNational Fire Saver merger more
recently where you know theirchair recognised that the
ultimate potential peddlingquicker and quicker to stand
(22:59):
still where ultimately, you know, it's not a size matters debate
, it's about scale and acollective sense of what it can
be delivered to the members, andthat mindset within founders
and boards is so, so difficult.
But once it's there and peopleare open to it, it becomes part
of that entity's dna and that'spart of the serve and protect
(23:21):
DNA.
Now our board and our team andhopefully our members, recognize
that we've only got better formergers and it's allowed us to
be more diverse in our thinkingand product delivery as well.
So I think really always hingeson on the board and with them.
But if they can take a stepback and think if only we were
(23:44):
in this position when we foundedit, what did we think beyond
there, I think we end up in theright place for the members,
which is ultimately, as I saidin the first, uh, first comments
, the most important thing in amutual is the member paul,
what's your view on CUSOs creditunion service organizations and
(24:05):
how do they fit alongsidemergers or even instead of
mergers?
oh, that's a good one, I think.
I think they're different andI'll try and take them in two
steps.
So I think mergers are animmediate, very tangible way to
scale one or two organizationsinto one, to hopefully build a
(24:27):
more sustainable organization,and I think they are right.
Where credit unions run intobarriers of growth, where you
know, if you take a credit unionover the last 10 years, if it's
not grown and you know theeconomic environment has been
fairly stable until the last two, if it was unable to grow and
(24:50):
become more sustainable during Idon't want to say the glory
years of, you know, the 2010s to2020, before the world got
flipped on its head, if you werestruggling to be sustainable at
that point, when most thingswere fairly stable, that's an
indication that people shouldconsider mergers.
I think the impact of CUSOs orcredit union service
(25:12):
organisations could be huge.
I think we have to break downthe misconceptions I hear
sometimes.
Credit unions aren't allowed toown organizations or um.
Our trade body uh, with my abqhat on is exactly that.
It's um.
You know it's a society ownedby credit union.
Kusos can operate in exactlythe same model.
(25:35):
There is question marks on oninvestment and ability for
credit unions to actuallycooperate and collaborate.
But it is possible, and I thinkmy knowledge of CUSOs before
they've become the commercialpowerhouse over in the states,
for example, is they're oftenspun up to solve problems or
(25:58):
common challenges, and I thinkyou know I look at the maturity
of our sector and it is stillrelatively young and
underdeveloped.
That's what we need to startwith is CUSOs tackling common
enemies or common challengesthat we would all benefit from?
So we're not reinventing it 10times over, but I think that's a
starting point and there aresome fantastic people in our
(26:22):
sector who are making inroads towhat that might look like,
which is really, really exciting, and hopefully we'll be part of
that.
But it's either to do newthings that we can't do on our
own or to tackle challenges thatwe all face and can't avoid,
and I think that's how we'll getsome traction in the kuso
(26:44):
market.
But to my knowledge, there aresome uh, fledgling kusos in in
discussions and and operating,but not ones that are sort of
more broadly known, where youcan go and either acquire
services as a customer or havethe opportunity to become a
member owner, which, or have theopportunity to become a member
(27:06):
owner, which ultimately skin inthe game creates interest and it
also means that there's care,and that is the root of all
credit unions being successful.
If you have individuals thatcare, they often thrive and
they're often successful.
So CUSOs are going to needcredit unions with skin in the
game so they care about whatthat CUSO delivers Rather than
(27:26):
sort of standing there andpotentially chipping away at
what it could do better.
They will make it do better ifit needs to.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Paul Norgrave.
Thanks very much.
Brilliant.
Thank you for having me on,chris, and the final word goes
to Nick Money Swoboda's there,all about informing credit
unions on change andtransformation.
This sounds like one of thebiggest changes and
(27:53):
transformations that we've hadfor a while.
Where do you see possibly goingin the next five years
regarding this very subject ofmergers, collaboration and QSOs,
where do you see it going?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Well, I think we're going to see both.
I mean, we're already seeing,and I think Ireland's ahead of
Britain in both fronts at themoment.
There's been an awful lot ofconsolidation in the Irish
movement in the last dozen years, initially, in particular,
driven by the regulator, butmore recently driven by credit
unions, determining some of thearguments you were making
earlier, chris.
Smaller credit unions feelingthat they will get their members
(28:27):
a better deal if they can joinin with somebody else who's got
a bit more capability and reducerisk to their members.
So those mergers are justhappening and some Swoboda
members, like Dundalks, justrecently had a merger with
Carrot and Cross.
So these are still live thingsthat are happening.
(28:47):
So they are starting to happenin Britain as well as in Ireland
.
But I think collaboration inIreland they've got this
fantastic initiative calledCultivate where there's very
many credit unions offering aparticular loan to farmers In
Britain slightly differentCollaboration is slightly
different collaboration slightlydifferent.
I think Sound Pound in GreaterManchester is a really
interesting initiative, more onthe advocacy side at the moment
but perhaps starting to get intoservice provision.
(29:08):
I think the Brits are sort ofstarting to get moving and the
Irish are already on, you know,getting ahead.
So what we'll see in the nextthree years, I guess, is the
success of some of thoseinitiatives.
And one of the things we'dreally like to do in Svoboda is
do some looking looking at someof those initiatives as case
studies, perhaps working outwhat best practice is.
And just to your earlier pointabout this emotional challenge
(29:29):
for boards, that's oneconversation.
It's a live conversation we'rehaving at the moment as to how
we can get into helping creditunions understand how they have
a relationship with CUSOs, wherethe right balance of power is
how to manage the risk andopportunity.
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