January 29, 2024 • 44 mins
Welcome to our first episode! Join our exciting journey with Dr. Jon Hawkings, a biogeochemist at the University of Pennsylvania who's on a mission to unravel the secrets of Earth's melting ice. In this episode, we'll dive deep into Dr. Hawkings' wild adventures, from the icy landscapes of the Arctic to the rugged terrains of Patagonia and beyond. Get ready to hear exciting stories and surprising discoveries as Dr. Hawkings shares how melted glacier water impacts our planet's ecosystems. We'll chat about everything from climate change conversations to unexpected encounters with wildlife. Plus, Dr. Hawkings will give us some practical tips on how everyday folks like us can help protect our planet. So grab your hiking boots and join us for a thrilling ride through the wonders of glacial meltwater and beyond!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to our podcast called Talking Environment.
(00:09):
It's really nice to have you here and today we are going to dive into the environmental
world with you and I'm very excited to welcome Dr. Hawkings here.
You can just call me John.
That's fine as well.
That's absolutely fine.
All right.
So if you could just give like a short introduction of yourself, what do you do?
Yeah, sure.
Hello, my name is Jon Hawkings.
(00:31):
I'm an assistant professor in the Department of Earth and Environmental Science here at
the University of Pennsylvania.
My primary research interest is water chemistry or water quality.
I'm kind of maybe a little bit more unique than most in that most of my research is done
in polar and alpine regions.
(00:51):
So I work mostly in places like Greenland or Svalbard, Patagonia, the Himalayas, regions
that I guess you would call fairly pristine compared to most of the rest of the world.
That's exciting.
But I don't think anywhere is really pristine anymore.
But yeah, yeah, that's exciting.
So you're from the UK, right?
(01:13):
I'm from the UK.
Yeah, I grew up just outside London.
So what brought you here to UPenn?
What got you here in the US?
A long complicated road of jobs.
I first came to the US in 2018.
I had a fellowship that was funded by the European Research Council.
And they paid for me to come to the US for a couple of years.
(01:34):
Then I met my wife and I wasn't allowed to leave.
She then became my wife and then I wasn't allowed to leave.
And then we had a child recently and I'm definitely not allowed to leave now.
So I was in Florida originally and then I got a position here at UPenn.
Awesome.
That's great.
Congratulations on that.
Thank you.
(01:55):
So going more into the research side or what you do professionally is considering the global
climate change issues nowadays, how can you say like breakdown for listeners how your
research on water or melted ice is connected to the whole global climate change issue?
Or how would you try to explain it in simple terms?
(02:16):
Yeah, big question.
So I always think of as glaciers and ice sheets as the barometers of climate change.
They respond very quickly in geological terms anyway.
They respond pretty quickly to changes in temperature and precipitation.
So the wax and waning of ice sheets and glaciers is a very good indicator of what's happening
(02:38):
with the global climate generally.
And most people are interested in glaciers and ice sheets from a physical perspective,
I would say they're interested in things like sea level rise.
They're interested in things like albedo, which is the reflectivity of ice and how that's
changing.
My spin on it is slightly different and that I'm interested in the chemistry and the biology
(02:58):
of the ice and how that relates to the cycling of elements through Earth's system.
And it's really interesting location to go to, particularly in an era of climate change,
because these environments are changing very, very quickly.
And they're changing decadally very, very quickly.
So we can almost track the implications of increased melting of ice on things like the
(03:20):
transport of elements through the Earth system, on things like the response of ecosystems
to increasing amounts of meltwater being flushed from ice.
And that can have pretty big consequences on a regional scale because all this fresh
water is being dumped into the ocean.
And that's either good or bad for biology in the ocean, depending on where you are in
(03:42):
the context of where the meltwater is coming from.
And that's either good or bad for things like fisheries.
It's good or bad for things like ecosystems.
By that I'm talking about biodiversity.
And sometimes it's quite hard to contextualize that if you're living in somewhere like Philadelphia,
because it's quite a far away.
(04:03):
But these regions do have global consequences, not just for sea level rise, but also where
our food comes from, how productive our ecosystems are, how productive our fisheries are.
So I'm trying to link in my research to those kind of bigger questions.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Good to know.
And any exciting stories or anything that brought you to these specific topics?
Or why do you do what you do?
(04:24):
So what brought you to this specific research theme?
Oh, it's all chance and happenstance, I think, for me.
But I think it was when I was an undergrad, I had some great professors who taught in
this kind of field, and they really piqued my interest.
I did some undergraduate field work in the European Alps in glaciers in the European
(04:49):
Alps, which was pretty cool, but also quite depressing because most of those glaciers
have retreated by quite a large amount in the last couple of decades.
But that got me really interested in field work.
And I just thought it was so unique and such an interesting spin on research and so much
stuff that we didn't know because most of these environments are very poorly understood
(05:11):
because they're very difficult to get to.
That it kind of snowboard there for me, the pun intended.
And then I found myself as a research assistant a couple years later after my undergrad in
Svalbard, which is an island archipelago, 300 miles north of Norway in the Arctic Circle.
(05:32):
And I spent three and a half months there helping out a researcher and loved it and
found it very interesting.
And then I decided to pursue a PhD in the similar kind of theme.
Awesome.
Yeah, I myself been to the Arctic Circle, the north of Norway.
It's like a small city called Tromsø.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I actually have, we're maybe getting a bit off topic here, but I have an adjunct professor
(05:56):
position at Tromsø University.
Really?
Yeah.
That's great.
I go there fairly regularly.
I was there, so it was like in March, I think.
Yeah, for a couple of weeks.
It was really exciting.
Yeah, it's a beautiful place, Tromsø.
It is.
It is.
It's very remote.
Yeah.
And we were able to catch the Northern Lights, so it was definitely worth it.
Fantastic.
I haven't actually been there in the winter yet.
(06:16):
I've only been in the summer.
So I've never seen the Northern Lights in Tromsø.
So hopefully you'll have also a chance to visit.
Yeah, hopefully.
Yeah, I'm hoping to take my sabbatical in Tromsø, so maybe then.
Yeah, of course.
So as you said, so your research and your work took you to some extreme places, to Himalayas,
to Patagonia, to the Arctic.
(06:37):
So any exciting stories or any adventures that you had there?
Oh, lots of exciting stories.
I'm not sure how many I could mention on the podcast.
We do, I will speak quite generally, but we do quite remote field work.
So UK science is known as belt and braces kind of science.
And we're trying to do a lot on not very much money, and that was kind of my background.
(07:01):
So my early PhD days were camping in front of the green ice sheet for a couple of months
at a time, living off of tin food and sometimes living off of tin food that had overwintered
a couple of seasons.
So it was always interesting from a food perspective and trying to get creative with camp cuisine
when you're trying to eat like a tin of carrots that have been there for two years and freeze
(07:25):
thawed a couple of times.
That's adventurous too, I mean.
It's adventurous, yeah.
Yeah, it's adventurous.
It's a beautiful environment, but when you're there for three months, the beauty kind of
becomes very common.
And then you're just worried about the food you're going to get in the next meal.
And also you're worried about the mosquitoes that are going to attack you when you get
out of the tent.
So yeah, it's enjoyable, but it is difficult life.
(07:50):
So when you go to those extreme places for like a long period of time, if you mind me
asking, so like how your family reacts if you leave them for that long of a time or
your kids, is it exciting or like how does it go?
It's getting more and more difficult now.
So my daughter is only four months old.
So I've never had to go away for a long period of time while she's been here.
(08:13):
And it definitely is going to have an impact on how long I can go away for.
I can't do three month field seasons anymore.
I have PhD students and postdoctoral researchers who go out and do the majority of the field
work.
And I'm like the typical PI or principal investigator that turns up for two weeks and eats all the
nice food and then leaves.
So yeah, it's getting more and more difficult these days.
(08:36):
But a lot of these environments are very far away as you can imagine, particularly if you
go to places like Antarctica, that it can take a week to get there and a week to get
back.
And then you're away for at least two weeks and then you've actually got to do some work
there.
So it turns into a month or two months quite easily.
And I'm just having to be a bit more disciplined now with what I can do, particularly as having
(08:59):
a young family is quite a lot of work.
That's understandable.
Yeah, that's a long period of time to just meet your family.
So the question afterwards is going to sound like what all the people can do to contribute
a bit more to what's going on with the climate or how they can contribute to the climate
(09:21):
change.
But before jumping into that, I would also like you to just tell us more like what have
you done on the collaboration side or if you collaborated with any organizations or any
initiatives that helped you to achieve a lot or like is there any initiatives that people
also can join if they're interested in specific things or?
(09:44):
So do you mean like climate initiatives?
Yeah.
So yeah, so my work doesn't really have me collaborating with specific initiatives, specific
initiatives, I should say, per se.
But there's a lot of very worthy organizations out there to get involved with.
And I think the best thing to do is get involved at a local level to begin with things like
(10:06):
what you're doing right now, things at Penn, get involved with environment organizations
at Penn and try and make change or force change on campus for a start.
I think that's the best thing you can do as an individual, particularly as a student at
Penn.
There's a lot of other organizations out there that are kind of national or international
(10:27):
scale and sure look at those as well.
But I think change has to start at home first, particularly from an individual level before
you start getting involved in some of those big organizations.
Most of my work is funded by the National Science Foundation.
And the National Science Foundation, for good reasons, wants you to connect your work to
(10:50):
broader impacts.
And so I have been involved in some local schools.
And last summer we had a school teacher join us from Chester, Chester County, Chester City
as well.
And she joined us on field work for three weeks to get involved with some hands on research
and also have a look at what the kind of day to day of research is like and take that back
(11:13):
with her and hopefully translate that to some lesson plans with our students.
And we're hoping to be very involved with that school and hopefully get into that school
and meet the students in person, hopefully share some of our experiences with them.
One of the surprising things for me anyway, for that high school and I'm sure other high
schools in this area is that a lot of students don't really understand climate change.
(11:36):
They certainly don't understand what polar environments are like and why they're important
and why they're unique.
And I think we need to go out and help educate these young people because they're the ones
who are going to be making the decisions in the next few decades.
Yeah, exciting.
So what would you say like the regular folks or the people who aren't really interested
(11:58):
in the environmental sciences or wouldn't like to get involved more seriously, what
would you say are some simple steps they can do to just help the planet?
Yeah, this is the trillion dollar question really.
You know, it's difficult and I battle with this on quite a regular basis in the way that
(12:19):
I'm thinking and you know, ultimately the big change has to come down to kind of like
institutional change and what I mean by that is like, it's really governmental initiatives
and international initiatives that are going to lead to the biggest changes.
But it doesn't necessarily mean as an individual you can't do anything.
I always say like the biggest impact you can have as an individual when it comes to climate
(12:41):
is your diet, because you can change your diet tomorrow if you want to.
Next time you go to the store, you can make very conscious decisions about what you buy
off the shelf.
This is going to be very unpopular and you know, it comes from someone who eats meat
on occasion, but meat eating is the biggest impact of our diet on the climate, particularly
(13:02):
red meats, particularly things like beef, both on a kind of land use scale and on a
carbon emission scale.
It's the worst thing you can do pretty much from an individual apart from driving around
in like a Hummer or something like that.
It's the worst thing you can do.
So the biggest impact you can make as an individual from today to tomorrow is change the way you
(13:24):
eat and be very conscious about that.
Think about where your food is coming from.
Think about how many animal products you're consuming and the impact that has on the environment
and on land use in the US, but also abroad.
You know, we're buying animal products from places like Brazil where they're cutting down
regions of the Amazon to have cattle grazed there.
So we're removing carbon storage and we're putting something in there that is, you know,
(13:48):
essentially burping and fasting methane.
So that's the biggest individual impact you can make.
But then there's other things like, you know, recycling, reducing your consumption of products
is a really important one.
Thinking about how often you're replacing your phone, thinking about what you're doing
to recycle your phone, thinking about which companies you decide to put your money, your
(14:12):
dollar into, like we all have credit cards or debit cards.
And that's a very powerful weapon to use when it comes to consumption and how these companies
decide to build their products, ship their products, market their products.
So yeah, small things, but like together, if we can all do it, then they can make quite
a big difference.
(14:33):
That's a quite interesting approach to it.
Yeah, well, I'm teaching the environmental science, Intro to Environmental Science course.
So we talk about a lot of these things from like, you know, waste all the way up to climate
change, and these are some of the points that come up in class and that we discuss.
So I'm trying to translate some of those.
I'm cheating a little bit.
(14:54):
I think that one of the most important things you can do is not give up as well.
And that's something that Michael Mann, who's in our department as well, talks about a lot
and is talking about a lot at the moment.
You know, it's a real thing for young people in particular, is this idea that like, there's
(15:14):
nothing they can do anymore.
And it's all too late.
And that's definitely not the case.
And there's plenty that can be done still.
And you really have to motivate yourself to help enact that change.
And there's plenty to play for.
As we've seen with the recent COP as well, COP 28 are we on now?
Yeah.
You know, there's plenty to play for in the coming decades.
(15:36):
So we hit 1.5 degrees of warming, I think almost certainly now.
But we've got to do our absolute best to keep it below 2 degrees of warming.
And you know, that's still very much to play for.
So that's right.
So you mentioned about the environmental education.
So the question is, what do you think, like, how big of a role environmental education
(15:59):
plays in actually like environmental awareness and making sure people know how to deal with
the planet?
And how do you think specifically the US does that job with the schools, the high schools
and universities?
Well, you know, I don't, the COP out here is that I'm going to give you is that I don't
know a huge amount about the US education system below tertiary education.
(16:22):
But I would say, you know, my bias is towards Penn.
I would say at Penn, not every student is particularly interested in environmental science
or the environment.
Which is a shame.
I think people have some concern, I think students have some concern about it.
But something I come across in my class quite often is why is this important?
(16:46):
Why am I being made to learn this?
And it fulfills credits.
And that's honestly why 60% of the students are there.
They're there to fulfill their credits, which is a shame, because I think environmental
science is a really important subject, because it's directly relevant to our day to day lives
and our quality of our lives, and it's going to become even more relevant in the coming
decades when things like sea level rise and pollution really start to kick in and hit
(17:11):
home in many respects.
So I think we could do better.
It's a shame that Penn, the environmental science department is only 10 faculty.
So it's very small at Penn compared to a lot of other institutions.
But I think an institutional level like in the university education system, I think the
US is extremely strong in environmental science research, and I think relatively well funded
(17:36):
as well compared to many other countries in environmental research and earth science research.
And that's partly why I'm here, is because the funding is much better in the US than
a lot of other places like the UK.
So does that answer some of your questions?
Yeah, that's not the question.
Honestly, I don't know too much about high school level.
I know that environmental science exists there.
(17:58):
My interactions with the teacher that joined us last summer on fieldwork were a little
bit more depressing, and that she would often talk about how little the students knew, like
I mentioned, about things like climate change and what they can do.
And that's to be understood really, because she comes from a school where policy levels
are very, very high.
(18:20):
People of color, very high percentage in Chester as well.
And there's a real kind of environment of racism around that.
But also, these students just don't get out of Chester.
They're not visiting these regions.
They're not seeing the differences.
So how would they know?
And they have more pressing needs, like what their family's going to put on the table for
dinner rather than what's the temperature going to be in 30 years' time?
(18:45):
And how is that more important to me than being able to eat for the next week?
So it's sometimes difficult coming from a level where we're very comfortable at Penn.
Most of us are relatively well off in that we don't have to worry about what we're going
to eat for dinner.
And we can worry about things like what's the temperature going to be like in 30 years'
(19:07):
time.
So we come from quite a privileged position.
I think sometimes that's difficult for us to acknowledge sometimes.
Yeah, so as you said that, so what would you say?
So in other places where the concerns are more like more every day, so people worry
(19:30):
about what they can eat today or what they can wear, what they should do, how do you
think it's just a theoretical question?
So how do you think they should approach this question considering the climate changes
are pretty high there too?
So how would you say or the big countries like US, what they can do to also help them
out or?
Yeah, sure.
So I think one thing is making like environmental science more relatable to their kind of day
(19:57):
to day, like talking about if they're worried about what they're going to eat and how they're
going to eat, then you can talk about well in 20 years' time when some regions we won't
be able to grow this kind of food or land use might have to change and what's that going
to do to the price of things like I don't know corn or whatever it is, trying to make
things a bit more relatable to them.
(20:19):
I was at a Penn event today actually called Penn One Health, which is really interesting.
And they talked a lot about students being worried, particularly in Philadelphia, more
worried about things like gun crime or crime in general.
But there's evidence to suggest that during like heat waves, gun crime goes up.
(20:42):
And that's a really tangible thing to talk about to the students because if they're worried
about gun crime, then they should be more worried about gun crime in a warming climate
because we have evidence to suggest that climate change can lead to more crime or more gun
crime in particular.
So I think making it more applicable to their kind of day to day living is good.
(21:05):
I think also from like from the perspective of someone who's working in science, I'd like
to think that me like exposing them to people like me will help and they'll like understand
that these these people exist that do this kind of research.
And wow, isn't it interesting research or wow, these places really interesting and beautiful
(21:25):
and shouldn't we like be preserving them or exposing these students to like a world in
which they would otherwise not be exposed, I think is probably quite a powerful thing
as well.
Yeah, definitely.
And also, so going back to your adventures, going back to your adventures to some remote
places.
So like, how would you say the climate there or the research or the adventures or everything
(21:50):
you have to go there kind of connects or why is it important to also going back, for example,
to Philly?
How can it also be important for Philly just by doing research there, figuring out how
the how everything works?
Yeah, I guess that is quite an abstract concept in many ways.
And it is difficult to directly communicate why am I going to, you know, the Arctic to
(22:15):
do my research rather than than in Philadelphia.
And I'll start with saying like we are also doing research at a more local level.
We're very interested in the chemistry of the Schuylkill River, for example, and we're
looking at nutrients in the Schuylkill River and how they affect things like algal productivity
in the Schuylkill and water quality in the Schuylkill more generally.
But going to the Arctic and doing this kind of work, I think it's really thinking about
(22:39):
like the the front lines of climate change, the places that are changing most quickly
that we have to understand and communicating that on a local level.
So if we're going to if we're going to figure out the places that are going to be hit hardest
and first, we have to go to these places that are on the front line of climate change like
the Arctic that are warming three or four times faster than, you know, more temperate
(23:02):
zones on Earth, where the environment is literally changing on a year to year basis.
You don't necessarily see that in Philadelphia.
And you know, these are these are, you know, what happens in the Arctic or in the Antarctic
doesn't stay there.
I think it's like sea level rise are very real for coastal communities of the United
States.
(23:23):
Things like fisheries are very real for the price of fish and the health of fisheries
and you know, where we're going to be able to get our seafood from in the future and
for just general kind of like political and economic stability as well.
You know, the Arctic is changing.
The US has a lot of territory in the Arctic.
How that change drives things like political agreements or disagreements is going to be
(23:47):
very real as well.
So you know, even though my specific area of research might not seem that relatable
to some people, there are definitely components in there that they could relate to, hopefully.
Awesome, definitely.
And so we talked about that.
You mentioned that you think that the biggest change should come to form from the government
(24:08):
from the policy level.
So how would you think like breaking down to the percentages?
I know it might sound like a bit specific or just like theoretical.
How would you think or how would you compare the role of every individual to the role of
government?
Like if or so like how would you say?
(24:30):
Yeah, sure.
I'll try to maybe like phrase it correctly.
So how would you say if let's say every single individual wanted to do some kind of change,
how would that affect the government's decisions and do the people now do the work that needs
to be done to maybe convince the government to do some more practical changes on the environmental
(24:54):
side or?
Yeah, so that's a very complicated answer that takes a lot of time and many people to
probably answer.
So I guess I'll start with saying that in the United States and in many Western countries,
we're in the privileged position of being able to elect our government every four to
(25:15):
five years.
And ultimately is the government that can have most influence on things like policy
that comes to like energy generation or recycling or waste disposal.
So we are in a privileged position that every five years we can judge our government based
on their previous record.
And we can select the people or parties that most align with our values.
(25:36):
And if we value things like climate highly, then we should elect people who also kind
of value climate highly.
And we can do that every four or five years in places like United States.
And we should think very carefully about that going forward, particularly as there's such
a big election next year, and I'm not going to get myself into any more trouble by saying
anything else other than that.
(25:57):
But like, don't believe what politicians tell you.
Even if they say it in quite a compelling way, don't believe them.
Many of them don't have environmental science degrees.
And many of them are in the pockets of heavy industry where fossil fuels are very important
and very profitable.
So think about that carefully, because that is the biggest change you could enact every
(26:20):
four or five years.
The flip side of that is that our government does change every four or five years, which
means that sometimes they can be very short sighted, because they're just looking for
the next election cycle.
So some of the changes that they make aren't necessarily based on like 20, 30 years time,
when most of these politicians are going to be dead, to be honest.
(26:41):
Like if the average Asian in the Senate is what, like 65, then in 30 years time, almost
all of them are going to be, won't be here anymore.
So that's another flip side, right, is that some parties aren't looking 30 years into
the future.
They're looking at short term gains, and they're looking at what can make them the most money,
(27:02):
I think.
That's my personal opinion.
That's not Penn's opinion.
That's my personal opinion.
Be very careful these days, is that what you say?
But yeah, so I think we're in a privileged position.
On the flip side, countries that don't have free and fair elections, or who have more
long term, I'm going to put this in very common, stable governments can make very large changes
(27:28):
that could be beneficial for the environment.
And I think a country, big countries like China, and you know, if China doesn't do anything,
then we're not going to get anywhere because it's 1.5 billion people.
It's you know, a huge surface area.
It's like a huge economic power.
If they decide they're not going to do anything, then we're not going to get very far.
But luckily, they have decided to plan for the future and they are investing a lot of
(27:52):
money into things like solar technology and wind technology.
So there's definitely some, you know, there's some light at the end of the tunnel in many
respects.
But I'm not saying like China's doing it all perfectly.
They're not doing it all perfectly, obviously.
And there's things that the United States is doing very well, you know, in the last
few years.
In the current administration, a lot of money has been pledged to try and build infrastructure
(28:17):
that can accommodate renewable energies and try and invest in renewable energies.
And that could be like transportation infrastructure from like investing in electric car production,
which isn't perfect, but like it's better than fossil fuel powered cars to like improvements
in the electrical grid to enable like more renewable power to feed onto electrical grid.
(28:38):
And that's billions of dollars worth of investment.
And that's sorely needed.
But we need we unfortunately billions of dollars more of investment.
But when you compare that to the subsidies for the fossil fuel industry, which total
more than a trillion dollars a year, it kind of looks like small fish really, or small
fry I should say.
So it looks like pretty money pretty well spent.
(29:02):
And particularly when you look at renewable energies like solar and wind power, which
can be cheaper than fossil fuel power now per gigawatt hour of energy produced.
A great answer, a great answer.
So I would also like to touch upon the company side, as I would think they're more stable
(29:24):
or their policies or everything they do can be more stable as the leadership doesn't
change that much.
So how would you also like maybe from a personal experience or what you have seen, how would
you say on the company side, how is their work like import is it important really for
the climate change issues or just environmental wise?
(29:46):
Or how would you think it can be improved?
Yeah, I should I'm going to preface this with saying that like, I'm definitely not an expert
in this.
Just talking from personal experience mostly.
But I think most companies know that this is a big issue.
And I think if you talk to the CEOs of like major corporations, they would definitely
(30:09):
not be climate change deniers.
And if they're planning for the next 10, 20 years worth of growth, this would be something
in the back of their mind.
And you can see that in places like the insurance industry, because some insurers will not insure
households in Florida anymore, because the risk of hurricanes are like strength mainly
due to climate change has become so grand that there that it's not a good investment
(30:32):
anymore.
And you know, these these companies are paying hundreds of millions of dollars to consultancies
to figure out what's going to be happening in 50 years time when it comes to climate
change, so they can adequately prepare their portfolio to minimize risk.
Yeah, so they're all about risk, because that's all about profit.
So these companies very much know that this is going to be a big risk in the future decades.
(30:57):
And I think a lot of them are planning for that.
Now the difficulty comes along when you still have a lot of money invested in things like
fossil fuel industry.
And when you have like big companies that have to answer to shareholders.
And so things like being frugal with their money is is an important thing as well.
And I think that's where a lot of difficulty comes in with change in corporations is that
(31:21):
they're it's not just one person making the decision that ultimately answerable to their
shareholders who expect to see a profit.
And that's a short term aim, right?
It's not like I don't want to see profit in 10 years time.
I want to see profit this year.
And what's going to be the most profitable thing to do this year might not be the most
environmentally friendly thing or the most sustainable thing to do.
(31:45):
And you know, there's bad actors as well in this as well.
It's difficult.
I was talking with my class last week on plastic waste.
And we went back to an advert from Keep America Beautiful, I think it is the body Keep America
Beautiful, which was founded by the CEOs of plastic companies.
(32:10):
And they released this advert basically telling people not to create plastic waste or to recycle
plastics.
Basically, and this is continued.
This isn't a new thing.
This is going back 30, 40 years though, when it started.
And this is a way of companies shifting the responsibility of things like waste production
or like energy generation onto the consumer.
(32:33):
And basically saying this is an awful, there's all this plastic waste around.
This is your fault.
There's all this plastic waste around.
So you need to sort it out by recycling.
And they don't include things in that like how difficult it is to actually recycle plastics.
And the fact that you can't really recycle some plastics or that plastics degrade every
time you recycle them.
(32:53):
So they just make it seem like it's your issue, not their issue.
So it's complicated.
And it gets it's complicated at a governmental level and it's complicated at a corporate
level.
But again, I'm going to say I'm not an expert in this.
I'm sure there's companies that are doing really good jobs and investing hard into things
(33:14):
like more sustainable technologies or more recyclable phones because we have to because
resources are running out in many cases.
Things like iridium, which is an element, goes into phone screen production.
I think there's only about a decade's worth of known reserves for iridium left.
So if you're a phone producer, you best be sure that you know how to recycle iridium
(33:37):
from your current phones because you can't produce any more in 10 years time unless we
find out an alternative for iridium in phone screens.
And I think a lot of companies do know about this.
And I think there is, you know, change probably behind the scenes that we don't always see.
I hope so anyway.
Definitely.
Yeah, agree with you.
So on more like another question on the companies or the product side, I recently looked up
(34:02):
there was a research done by I think it was brought up by the Wharton School by the compression
with the environmental side.
There was it was just a small research where they were asking people, would they care if
the companies or the products that they're buying, the companies are doing a good job
on the environmental side or how their let's say green brand image looks like.
(34:25):
More on the personal side, do you do you take into account that or would you will to pay
a bit more to buy a product from a company that invests more on the environmental field
or?
Yeah, so I'm in a privileged position I can afford to pay a little bit more for the products
that I buy in order to make them to buy something more sustainable.
(34:48):
I have a go at my wife all the time about this because she's she's she's less, I would
say less not concerned.
She's concerned, but she you know, she uses Amazon a lot and she purchases stuff and returns
stuff quite a lot, which drives me mad.
But you know, that's a that's a marital issue rather than anything else.
On a personal level, I do every time I buy something, I make quite a conscious decision
(35:09):
about what I'm buying.
For example, the shirt I'm wearing is from a company called United by Blue, who are certified
B Corporation.
I think it's made from like recycled.
There's something eco about it.
Okay, 40% recycled wool, 20% recycled nylon and 40% wool.
(35:29):
So I guess it's 60% recycled.
So that's a good start.
And this company like invest in taking waste out of the ocean as well.
So that makes me feel a little bit better.
I couldn't say the same about mine.
I'm also like, I'm not trying to judge people because you know, I am I'm receiving a salary
unlike many students who are trying to you know, paying a lot for their education and
(35:50):
also trying to make make means when it comes to buying stuff.
But yeah, I try and I try and take that into account for sure.
It's not always that easy to do, to be honest.
And there's definitely something called greenwashing going on where companies make you think they're
being green, but yeah, you know, it's just definitely building just the image and trying
(36:11):
to show people.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, to just to make you feel better about buying something.
And we have to be careful about that.
But there's you know, there's only certain you can't really do much about it in some
cases unless you really know everything about the company and what they're selling.
And the honest answer is that you know, the best way to save carbon is to not buy stuff
(36:35):
that you don't need.
So if you have a if you have a sweater that isn't got like riddled with holes, do you
really need to buy a new sweater?
You know, I'm not I'm not judging because I do I do these things I buy new clothes on
occasion.
I try not to buy too much and I try to buy it only when I need it.
Like I was walking around with a hole in my in my jeans for a few months before I bought
(36:58):
a new pair of jeans before my wife was like you can't do that.
Well, if the students see you with this hole in your jeans, it's just so I try and do that.
And I do look into things like, you know, recycling jeans.
Yeah, there are companies that do that for you.
And repairing jeans as well.
I think Levi's used to repair jeans.
I'm not sure they do anymore.
(37:18):
But yeah, I think it's important to do.
Yeah, I take some of these green initiatives with a little bit of a pinch of salt.
Awesome.
Yes.
Yeah, I think I think the I think the survey was done like in New York in Philly somewhere
in downtown.
So that's why it turned out about 60 65 percent of the people do care.
Okay.
Interesting.
(37:38):
I think that I do think the results will be very different if you go somewhere like outside
in the country or in some other countries because we are way more privileged here.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I guess there's there's also I don't know how they did the survey, but there's also
a thing that like you tell someone what you think they want to hear.
Yeah.
(37:59):
And I think 65 percent of people say they do take it into account.
Someone might be just telling you that because that's what you that's what you want to hear.
And they don't want to be judged for saying like, I don't bother with like reading the
label and see whether it's recycled nylon or not.
I just buy it.
And you know, the in some ways, the proof is in the pudding and we're like consuming
more than we've ever done in this country.
(38:21):
Yeah.
And that is not abating.
And we have things like Black Friday where people go nuts to get a new TV to replace
that old TV that's like two years old.
And no matter what people say, their actions speak a little bit louder than words.
And actually, the actions at the moment aren't fantastic.
Yeah.
But it does show it does show you that like companies should be interested in in what
(38:43):
people even if people are just saying things because they think it's what other people
want to hear.
Obviously, there's like interest in making things more sustainable or more green.
Sure.
Yeah, definitely.
And also, let me phrase this right.
So there are many like small environmental initiatives organizations out there.
(39:04):
So how would you think like the importance of their role?
So most of them just do maybe in the schools or any clubs, just environmental clubs, or
they do all sorts of stuff.
How would you think like?
I would say from my personal perspective, I would say it's more it's more valuable
(39:25):
for the people that are inside the club.
It's just it just gives more experience more maybe trying to build up some more awareness.
How would you think like their importances or how important they are?
Yeah, I think small organizations are really important in spreading the word and communicating
to the public.
And yeah, I yeah, again, it's not something that I know too much about, especially in
(39:50):
Philadelphia.
And I wish I knew a little bit more about this in Philadelphia, and hopefully I will
in the years to come.
But like these kind of organizations are very important at communicating climate change
science to the average everyday person.
And they're very important in gathering people together as well and creating community, which
is, which is, you know, if nothing else, that's an important thing.
(40:11):
Yeah.
So about gathering people about this, like, let's say teamwork around the environmental
issues.
So on the on the global level, we mentioned about the China and the US, like if US does
everything and China doesn't do anything, it wouldn't work out.
So how would you how would you rate like, the importancy of the global cooperation in
(40:33):
these things?
Do you think anything can work out if only like one side of the countries or one side
of the things work on it and the other doesn't?
Yeah, you should get Michael Mann on this podcast.
He's a busy man.
But yeah, hugely important.
And we won't get anywhere without international cooperation.
(40:53):
But it's it's the hardest thing is international cooperation when you have so many different
countries coming together with lots of different cultures and ways of thinking, and perhaps
priorities.
And it's very difficult also to tell countries what to do, particularly when you're in a
position such as like a Western country like the US or where I come from the UK, where
(41:15):
our economic growth in the past has been fossil fuel powered.
And now all of a sudden, we're telling other countries that are growing that they can't
use fossil fuels anymore.
And that's an extreme example.
But like, it's it's a little bit patronizing in some ways.
So we have to be careful with that.
And we also have to look after the countries that are, you know, really going to see the
(41:38):
biggest impacts like low lying islands, for example, some low lying islands with like
half a meter of sea level rise are going to be gone.
And you're going to have like 10s of thousands of displaced populations that are going to
need to go somewhere.
And you're going to have whole economies that are going to need to go somewhere.
So we need to come together as an international community to figure that out.
(42:01):
And that's why things like COP really important.
And that's why COP is, you know, in the news a lot at the moment, because it's going on.
But also because like, we need to come to some kind of agreement on this, because otherwise,
you know, everything else is.
Yeah, is isn't really important if there's no international agreement.
(42:24):
And you know, the thing the issue I have with COP, though, is that these all seem to be
fairly soft agreements.
And none of them are legally binding.
It's very different to do internationally.
But at least it's some kind of intention.
Yeah.
Better than nothing.
Sure.
So we are we are coming to the end.
And I wanted to know, like, if there is anything that you would like to share at the end or
(42:48):
for listeners or any call to action or anything that you would want to share at the end?
Well, I'd like to say that, you know, if you're interested in environmental science and you're
interested in the kind of themes that we've been talking about, do reach out to the Department
of Earth and Environmental Science.
We run a lot of really interesting courses if you're really interested in the science
behind this, which is the most fundamental thing about climate change or about environmental
(43:13):
change.
Look at our courses.
Hopefully you're interested in some of them.
From my kind of lab perspective, we're always looking for undergraduates to come in and
help work in the lab, doing some chemistry, help them run some of the instrumentation
and run the samples that we bring back from Greenland and Antarctica.
So if you're interested in getting hands on research experience, also reach out.
(43:38):
Look after yourself and look after the people around you.
Very soft words there, perhaps.
And be very intentional with your decision making, I think.
And think about things like your carbon footprint or your ecological footprint when you make
decisions.
Because even though I've said individual decisions don't matter hugely, they still matter and
(44:02):
they can spread as well.
Awesome.
Also, talk to your family about climate change.
Especially crazy Uncle Fred.
Very important.
Very important.
Yeah.
So thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Dr. O'Kings.
Thanks for having me.
Or John.
Yeah.
It was a great conversation.
It was just nice to talk about all of these things.
(44:23):
And yeah, so stay tuned for our future podcasts.
Yeah.
Have fun and be conscious about how you use everything.
And yeah, care about the planet.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Good luck everybody.
Hello and welcome to our podcast called Talking Environment.
(00:09):
It's really nice to have you here and today we are going to dive into the environmental
world with you and I'm very excited to welcome Dr. Hawkings here.
You can just call me John.
That's fine as well.
That's absolutely fine.
All right.
So if you could just give like a short introduction of yourself, what do you do?
Yeah, sure.
Hello, my name is Jon Hawkings.
(00:31):
I'm an assistant professor in the Department of Earth and Environmental Science here at
the University of Pennsylvania.
My primary research interest is water chemistry or water quality.
I'm kind of maybe a little bit more unique than most in that most of my research is done
in polar and alpine regions.
(00:51):
So I work mostly in places like Greenland or Svalbard, Patagonia, the Himalayas, regions
that I guess you would call fairly pristine compared to most of the rest of the world.
That's exciting.
But I don't think anywhere is really pristine anymore.
But yeah, yeah, that's exciting.
So you're from the UK, right?
(01:13):
I'm from the UK.
Yeah, I grew up just outside London.
So what brought you here to UPenn?
What got you here in the US?
A long complicated road of jobs.
I first came to the US in 2018.
I had a fellowship that was funded by the European Research Council.
And they paid for me to come to the US for a couple of years.
(01:34):
Then I met my wife and I wasn't allowed to leave.
She then became my wife and then I wasn't allowed to leave.
And then we had a child recently and I'm definitely not allowed to leave now.
So I was in Florida originally and then I got a position here at UPenn.
Awesome.
That's great.
Congratulations on that.
Thank you.
(01:55):
So going more into the research side or what you do professionally is considering the global
climate change issues nowadays, how can you say like breakdown for listeners how your
research on water or melted ice is connected to the whole global climate change issue?
Or how would you try to explain it in simple terms?
(02:16):
Yeah, big question.
So I always think of as glaciers and ice sheets as the barometers of climate change.
They respond very quickly in geological terms anyway.
They respond pretty quickly to changes in temperature and precipitation.
So the wax and waning of ice sheets and glaciers is a very good indicator of what's happening
(02:38):
with the global climate generally.
And most people are interested in glaciers and ice sheets from a physical perspective,
I would say they're interested in things like sea level rise.
They're interested in things like albedo, which is the reflectivity of ice and how that's
changing.
My spin on it is slightly different and that I'm interested in the chemistry and the biology
(02:58):
of the ice and how that relates to the cycling of elements through Earth's system.
And it's really interesting location to go to, particularly in an era of climate change,
because these environments are changing very, very quickly.
And they're changing decadally very, very quickly.
So we can almost track the implications of increased melting of ice on things like the
(03:20):
transport of elements through the Earth system, on things like the response of ecosystems
to increasing amounts of meltwater being flushed from ice.
And that can have pretty big consequences on a regional scale because all this fresh
water is being dumped into the ocean.
And that's either good or bad for biology in the ocean, depending on where you are in
(03:42):
the context of where the meltwater is coming from.
And that's either good or bad for things like fisheries.
It's good or bad for things like ecosystems.
By that I'm talking about biodiversity.
And sometimes it's quite hard to contextualize that if you're living in somewhere like Philadelphia,
because it's quite a far away.
(04:03):
But these regions do have global consequences, not just for sea level rise, but also where
our food comes from, how productive our ecosystems are, how productive our fisheries are.
So I'm trying to link in my research to those kind of bigger questions.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Good to know.
And any exciting stories or anything that brought you to these specific topics?
Or why do you do what you do?
(04:24):
So what brought you to this specific research theme?
Oh, it's all chance and happenstance, I think, for me.
But I think it was when I was an undergrad, I had some great professors who taught in
this kind of field, and they really piqued my interest.
I did some undergraduate field work in the European Alps in glaciers in the European
(04:49):
Alps, which was pretty cool, but also quite depressing because most of those glaciers
have retreated by quite a large amount in the last couple of decades.
But that got me really interested in field work.
And I just thought it was so unique and such an interesting spin on research and so much
stuff that we didn't know because most of these environments are very poorly understood
(05:11):
because they're very difficult to get to.
That it kind of snowboard there for me, the pun intended.
And then I found myself as a research assistant a couple years later after my undergrad in
Svalbard, which is an island archipelago, 300 miles north of Norway in the Arctic Circle.
(05:32):
And I spent three and a half months there helping out a researcher and loved it and
found it very interesting.
And then I decided to pursue a PhD in the similar kind of theme.
Awesome.
Yeah, I myself been to the Arctic Circle, the north of Norway.
It's like a small city called Tromsø.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I actually have, we're maybe getting a bit off topic here, but I have an adjunct professor
(05:56):
position at Tromsø University.
Really?
Yeah.
That's great.
I go there fairly regularly.
I was there, so it was like in March, I think.
Yeah, for a couple of weeks.
It was really exciting.
Yeah, it's a beautiful place, Tromsø.
It is.
It is.
It's very remote.
Yeah.
And we were able to catch the Northern Lights, so it was definitely worth it.
Fantastic.
I haven't actually been there in the winter yet.
(06:16):
I've only been in the summer.
So I've never seen the Northern Lights in Tromsø.
So hopefully you'll have also a chance to visit.
Yeah, hopefully.
Yeah, I'm hoping to take my sabbatical in Tromsø, so maybe then.
Yeah, of course.
So as you said, so your research and your work took you to some extreme places, to Himalayas,
to Patagonia, to the Arctic.
(06:37):
So any exciting stories or any adventures that you had there?
Oh, lots of exciting stories.
I'm not sure how many I could mention on the podcast.
We do, I will speak quite generally, but we do quite remote field work.
So UK science is known as belt and braces kind of science.
And we're trying to do a lot on not very much money, and that was kind of my background.
(07:01):
So my early PhD days were camping in front of the green ice sheet for a couple of months
at a time, living off of tin food and sometimes living off of tin food that had overwintered
a couple of seasons.
So it was always interesting from a food perspective and trying to get creative with camp cuisine
when you're trying to eat like a tin of carrots that have been there for two years and freeze
(07:25):
thawed a couple of times.
That's adventurous too, I mean.
It's adventurous, yeah.
Yeah, it's adventurous.
It's a beautiful environment, but when you're there for three months, the beauty kind of
becomes very common.
And then you're just worried about the food you're going to get in the next meal.
And also you're worried about the mosquitoes that are going to attack you when you get
out of the tent.
So yeah, it's enjoyable, but it is difficult life.
(07:50):
So when you go to those extreme places for like a long period of time, if you mind me
asking, so like how your family reacts if you leave them for that long of a time or
your kids, is it exciting or like how does it go?
It's getting more and more difficult now.
So my daughter is only four months old.
So I've never had to go away for a long period of time while she's been here.
(08:13):
And it definitely is going to have an impact on how long I can go away for.
I can't do three month field seasons anymore.
I have PhD students and postdoctoral researchers who go out and do the majority of the field
work.
And I'm like the typical PI or principal investigator that turns up for two weeks and eats all the
nice food and then leaves.
So yeah, it's getting more and more difficult these days.
(08:36):
But a lot of these environments are very far away as you can imagine, particularly if you
go to places like Antarctica, that it can take a week to get there and a week to get
back.
And then you're away for at least two weeks and then you've actually got to do some work
there.
So it turns into a month or two months quite easily.
And I'm just having to be a bit more disciplined now with what I can do, particularly as having
(08:59):
a young family is quite a lot of work.
That's understandable.
Yeah, that's a long period of time to just meet your family.
So the question afterwards is going to sound like what all the people can do to contribute
a bit more to what's going on with the climate or how they can contribute to the climate
(09:21):
change.
But before jumping into that, I would also like you to just tell us more like what have
you done on the collaboration side or if you collaborated with any organizations or any
initiatives that helped you to achieve a lot or like is there any initiatives that people
also can join if they're interested in specific things or?
(09:44):
So do you mean like climate initiatives?
Yeah.
So yeah, so my work doesn't really have me collaborating with specific initiatives, specific
initiatives, I should say, per se.
But there's a lot of very worthy organizations out there to get involved with.
And I think the best thing to do is get involved at a local level to begin with things like
(10:06):
what you're doing right now, things at Penn, get involved with environment organizations
at Penn and try and make change or force change on campus for a start.
I think that's the best thing you can do as an individual, particularly as a student at
Penn.
There's a lot of other organizations out there that are kind of national or international
(10:27):
scale and sure look at those as well.
But I think change has to start at home first, particularly from an individual level before
you start getting involved in some of those big organizations.
Most of my work is funded by the National Science Foundation.
And the National Science Foundation, for good reasons, wants you to connect your work to
(10:50):
broader impacts.
And so I have been involved in some local schools.
And last summer we had a school teacher join us from Chester, Chester County, Chester City
as well.
And she joined us on field work for three weeks to get involved with some hands on research
and also have a look at what the kind of day to day of research is like and take that back
(11:13):
with her and hopefully translate that to some lesson plans with our students.
And we're hoping to be very involved with that school and hopefully get into that school
and meet the students in person, hopefully share some of our experiences with them.
One of the surprising things for me anyway, for that high school and I'm sure other high
schools in this area is that a lot of students don't really understand climate change.
(11:36):
They certainly don't understand what polar environments are like and why they're important
and why they're unique.
And I think we need to go out and help educate these young people because they're the ones
who are going to be making the decisions in the next few decades.
Yeah, exciting.
So what would you say like the regular folks or the people who aren't really interested
(11:58):
in the environmental sciences or wouldn't like to get involved more seriously, what
would you say are some simple steps they can do to just help the planet?
Yeah, this is the trillion dollar question really.
You know, it's difficult and I battle with this on quite a regular basis in the way that
(12:19):
I'm thinking and you know, ultimately the big change has to come down to kind of like
institutional change and what I mean by that is like, it's really governmental initiatives
and international initiatives that are going to lead to the biggest changes.
But it doesn't necessarily mean as an individual you can't do anything.
I always say like the biggest impact you can have as an individual when it comes to climate
(12:41):
is your diet, because you can change your diet tomorrow if you want to.
Next time you go to the store, you can make very conscious decisions about what you buy
off the shelf.
This is going to be very unpopular and you know, it comes from someone who eats meat
on occasion, but meat eating is the biggest impact of our diet on the climate, particularly
(13:02):
red meats, particularly things like beef, both on a kind of land use scale and on a
carbon emission scale.
It's the worst thing you can do pretty much from an individual apart from driving around
in like a Hummer or something like that.
It's the worst thing you can do.
So the biggest impact you can make as an individual from today to tomorrow is change the way you
(13:24):
eat and be very conscious about that.
Think about where your food is coming from.
Think about how many animal products you're consuming and the impact that has on the environment
and on land use in the US, but also abroad.
You know, we're buying animal products from places like Brazil where they're cutting down
regions of the Amazon to have cattle grazed there.
So we're removing carbon storage and we're putting something in there that is, you know,
(13:48):
essentially burping and fasting methane.
So that's the biggest individual impact you can make.
But then there's other things like, you know, recycling, reducing your consumption of products
is a really important one.
Thinking about how often you're replacing your phone, thinking about what you're doing
to recycle your phone, thinking about which companies you decide to put your money, your
(14:12):
dollar into, like we all have credit cards or debit cards.
And that's a very powerful weapon to use when it comes to consumption and how these companies
decide to build their products, ship their products, market their products.
So yeah, small things, but like together, if we can all do it, then they can make quite
a big difference.
(14:33):
That's a quite interesting approach to it.
Yeah, well, I'm teaching the environmental science, Intro to Environmental Science course.
So we talk about a lot of these things from like, you know, waste all the way up to climate
change, and these are some of the points that come up in class and that we discuss.
So I'm trying to translate some of those.
I'm cheating a little bit.
(14:54):
I think that one of the most important things you can do is not give up as well.
And that's something that Michael Mann, who's in our department as well, talks about a lot
and is talking about a lot at the moment.
You know, it's a real thing for young people in particular, is this idea that like, there's
(15:14):
nothing they can do anymore.
And it's all too late.
And that's definitely not the case.
And there's plenty that can be done still.
And you really have to motivate yourself to help enact that change.
And there's plenty to play for.
As we've seen with the recent COP as well, COP 28 are we on now?
Yeah.
You know, there's plenty to play for in the coming decades.
(15:36):
So we hit 1.5 degrees of warming, I think almost certainly now.
But we've got to do our absolute best to keep it below 2 degrees of warming.
And you know, that's still very much to play for.
So that's right.
So you mentioned about the environmental education.
So the question is, what do you think, like, how big of a role environmental education
(15:59):
plays in actually like environmental awareness and making sure people know how to deal with
the planet?
And how do you think specifically the US does that job with the schools, the high schools
and universities?
Well, you know, I don't, the COP out here is that I'm going to give you is that I don't
know a huge amount about the US education system below tertiary education.
(16:22):
But I would say, you know, my bias is towards Penn.
I would say at Penn, not every student is particularly interested in environmental science
or the environment.
Which is a shame.
I think people have some concern, I think students have some concern about it.
But something I come across in my class quite often is why is this important?
(16:46):
Why am I being made to learn this?
And it fulfills credits.
And that's honestly why 60% of the students are there.
They're there to fulfill their credits, which is a shame, because I think environmental
science is a really important subject, because it's directly relevant to our day to day lives
and our quality of our lives, and it's going to become even more relevant in the coming
decades when things like sea level rise and pollution really start to kick in and hit
(17:11):
home in many respects.
So I think we could do better.
It's a shame that Penn, the environmental science department is only 10 faculty.
So it's very small at Penn compared to a lot of other institutions.
But I think an institutional level like in the university education system, I think the
US is extremely strong in environmental science research, and I think relatively well funded
(17:36):
as well compared to many other countries in environmental research and earth science research.
And that's partly why I'm here, is because the funding is much better in the US than
a lot of other places like the UK.
So does that answer some of your questions?
Yeah, that's not the question.
Honestly, I don't know too much about high school level.
I know that environmental science exists there.
(17:58):
My interactions with the teacher that joined us last summer on fieldwork were a little
bit more depressing, and that she would often talk about how little the students knew, like
I mentioned, about things like climate change and what they can do.
And that's to be understood really, because she comes from a school where policy levels
are very, very high.
(18:20):
People of color, very high percentage in Chester as well.
And there's a real kind of environment of racism around that.
But also, these students just don't get out of Chester.
They're not visiting these regions.
They're not seeing the differences.
So how would they know?
And they have more pressing needs, like what their family's going to put on the table for
dinner rather than what's the temperature going to be in 30 years' time?
(18:45):
And how is that more important to me than being able to eat for the next week?
So it's sometimes difficult coming from a level where we're very comfortable at Penn.
Most of us are relatively well off in that we don't have to worry about what we're going
to eat for dinner.
And we can worry about things like what's the temperature going to be like in 30 years'
(19:07):
time.
So we come from quite a privileged position.
I think sometimes that's difficult for us to acknowledge sometimes.
Yeah, so as you said that, so what would you say?
So in other places where the concerns are more like more every day, so people worry
(19:30):
about what they can eat today or what they can wear, what they should do, how do you
think it's just a theoretical question?
So how do you think they should approach this question considering the climate changes
are pretty high there too?
So how would you say or the big countries like US, what they can do to also help them
out or?
Yeah, sure.
So I think one thing is making like environmental science more relatable to their kind of day
(19:57):
to day, like talking about if they're worried about what they're going to eat and how they're
going to eat, then you can talk about well in 20 years' time when some regions we won't
be able to grow this kind of food or land use might have to change and what's that going
to do to the price of things like I don't know corn or whatever it is, trying to make
things a bit more relatable to them.
(20:19):
I was at a Penn event today actually called Penn One Health, which is really interesting.
And they talked a lot about students being worried, particularly in Philadelphia, more
worried about things like gun crime or crime in general.
But there's evidence to suggest that during like heat waves, gun crime goes up.
(20:42):
And that's a really tangible thing to talk about to the students because if they're worried
about gun crime, then they should be more worried about gun crime in a warming climate
because we have evidence to suggest that climate change can lead to more crime or more gun
crime in particular.
So I think making it more applicable to their kind of day to day living is good.
(21:05):
I think also from like from the perspective of someone who's working in science, I'd like
to think that me like exposing them to people like me will help and they'll like understand
that these these people exist that do this kind of research.
And wow, isn't it interesting research or wow, these places really interesting and beautiful
(21:25):
and shouldn't we like be preserving them or exposing these students to like a world in
which they would otherwise not be exposed, I think is probably quite a powerful thing
as well.
Yeah, definitely.
And also, so going back to your adventures, going back to your adventures to some remote
places.
So like, how would you say the climate there or the research or the adventures or everything
(21:50):
you have to go there kind of connects or why is it important to also going back, for example,
to Philly?
How can it also be important for Philly just by doing research there, figuring out how
the how everything works?
Yeah, I guess that is quite an abstract concept in many ways.
And it is difficult to directly communicate why am I going to, you know, the Arctic to
(22:15):
do my research rather than than in Philadelphia.
And I'll start with saying like we are also doing research at a more local level.
We're very interested in the chemistry of the Schuylkill River, for example, and we're
looking at nutrients in the Schuylkill River and how they affect things like algal productivity
in the Schuylkill and water quality in the Schuylkill more generally.
But going to the Arctic and doing this kind of work, I think it's really thinking about
(22:39):
like the the front lines of climate change, the places that are changing most quickly
that we have to understand and communicating that on a local level.
So if we're going to if we're going to figure out the places that are going to be hit hardest
and first, we have to go to these places that are on the front line of climate change like
the Arctic that are warming three or four times faster than, you know, more temperate
(23:02):
zones on Earth, where the environment is literally changing on a year to year basis.
You don't necessarily see that in Philadelphia.
And you know, these are these are, you know, what happens in the Arctic or in the Antarctic
doesn't stay there.
I think it's like sea level rise are very real for coastal communities of the United
States.
(23:23):
Things like fisheries are very real for the price of fish and the health of fisheries
and you know, where we're going to be able to get our seafood from in the future and
for just general kind of like political and economic stability as well.
You know, the Arctic is changing.
The US has a lot of territory in the Arctic.
How that change drives things like political agreements or disagreements is going to be
(23:47):
very real as well.
So you know, even though my specific area of research might not seem that relatable
to some people, there are definitely components in there that they could relate to, hopefully.
Awesome, definitely.
And so we talked about that.
You mentioned that you think that the biggest change should come to form from the government
(24:08):
from the policy level.
So how would you think like breaking down to the percentages?
I know it might sound like a bit specific or just like theoretical.
How would you think or how would you compare the role of every individual to the role of
government?
Like if or so like how would you say?
(24:30):
Yeah, sure.
I'll try to maybe like phrase it correctly.
So how would you say if let's say every single individual wanted to do some kind of change,
how would that affect the government's decisions and do the people now do the work that needs
to be done to maybe convince the government to do some more practical changes on the environmental
(24:54):
side or?
Yeah, so that's a very complicated answer that takes a lot of time and many people to
probably answer.
So I guess I'll start with saying that in the United States and in many Western countries,
we're in the privileged position of being able to elect our government every four to
(25:15):
five years.
And ultimately is the government that can have most influence on things like policy
that comes to like energy generation or recycling or waste disposal.
So we are in a privileged position that every five years we can judge our government based
on their previous record.
And we can select the people or parties that most align with our values.
(25:36):
And if we value things like climate highly, then we should elect people who also kind
of value climate highly.
And we can do that every four or five years in places like United States.
And we should think very carefully about that going forward, particularly as there's such
a big election next year, and I'm not going to get myself into any more trouble by saying
anything else other than that.
(25:57):
But like, don't believe what politicians tell you.
Even if they say it in quite a compelling way, don't believe them.
Many of them don't have environmental science degrees.
And many of them are in the pockets of heavy industry where fossil fuels are very important
and very profitable.
So think about that carefully, because that is the biggest change you could enact every
(26:20):
four or five years.
The flip side of that is that our government does change every four or five years, which
means that sometimes they can be very short sighted, because they're just looking for
the next election cycle.
So some of the changes that they make aren't necessarily based on like 20, 30 years time,
when most of these politicians are going to be dead, to be honest.
(26:41):
Like if the average Asian in the Senate is what, like 65, then in 30 years time, almost
all of them are going to be, won't be here anymore.
So that's another flip side, right, is that some parties aren't looking 30 years into
the future.
They're looking at short term gains, and they're looking at what can make them the most money,
(27:02):
I think.
That's my personal opinion.
That's not Penn's opinion.
That's my personal opinion.
Be very careful these days, is that what you say?
But yeah, so I think we're in a privileged position.
On the flip side, countries that don't have free and fair elections, or who have more
long term, I'm going to put this in very common, stable governments can make very large changes
(27:28):
that could be beneficial for the environment.
And I think a country, big countries like China, and you know, if China doesn't do anything,
then we're not going to get anywhere because it's 1.5 billion people.
It's you know, a huge surface area.
It's like a huge economic power.
If they decide they're not going to do anything, then we're not going to get very far.
But luckily, they have decided to plan for the future and they are investing a lot of
(27:52):
money into things like solar technology and wind technology.
So there's definitely some, you know, there's some light at the end of the tunnel in many
respects.
But I'm not saying like China's doing it all perfectly.
They're not doing it all perfectly, obviously.
And there's things that the United States is doing very well, you know, in the last
few years.
In the current administration, a lot of money has been pledged to try and build infrastructure
(28:17):
that can accommodate renewable energies and try and invest in renewable energies.
And that could be like transportation infrastructure from like investing in electric car production,
which isn't perfect, but like it's better than fossil fuel powered cars to like improvements
in the electrical grid to enable like more renewable power to feed onto electrical grid.
(28:38):
And that's billions of dollars worth of investment.
And that's sorely needed.
But we need we unfortunately billions of dollars more of investment.
But when you compare that to the subsidies for the fossil fuel industry, which total
more than a trillion dollars a year, it kind of looks like small fish really, or small
fry I should say.
So it looks like pretty money pretty well spent.
(29:02):
And particularly when you look at renewable energies like solar and wind power, which
can be cheaper than fossil fuel power now per gigawatt hour of energy produced.
A great answer, a great answer.
So I would also like to touch upon the company side, as I would think they're more stable
(29:24):
or their policies or everything they do can be more stable as the leadership doesn't
change that much.
So how would you also like maybe from a personal experience or what you have seen, how would
you say on the company side, how is their work like import is it important really for
the climate change issues or just environmental wise?
(29:46):
Or how would you think it can be improved?
Yeah, I should I'm going to preface this with saying that like, I'm definitely not an expert
in this.
Just talking from personal experience mostly.
But I think most companies know that this is a big issue.
And I think if you talk to the CEOs of like major corporations, they would definitely
(30:09):
not be climate change deniers.
And if they're planning for the next 10, 20 years worth of growth, this would be something
in the back of their mind.
And you can see that in places like the insurance industry, because some insurers will not insure
households in Florida anymore, because the risk of hurricanes are like strength mainly
due to climate change has become so grand that there that it's not a good investment
(30:32):
anymore.
And you know, these these companies are paying hundreds of millions of dollars to consultancies
to figure out what's going to be happening in 50 years time when it comes to climate
change, so they can adequately prepare their portfolio to minimize risk.
Yeah, so they're all about risk, because that's all about profit.
So these companies very much know that this is going to be a big risk in the future decades.
(30:57):
And I think a lot of them are planning for that.
Now the difficulty comes along when you still have a lot of money invested in things like
fossil fuel industry.
And when you have like big companies that have to answer to shareholders.
And so things like being frugal with their money is is an important thing as well.
And I think that's where a lot of difficulty comes in with change in corporations is that
(31:21):
they're it's not just one person making the decision that ultimately answerable to their
shareholders who expect to see a profit.
And that's a short term aim, right?
It's not like I don't want to see profit in 10 years time.
I want to see profit this year.
And what's going to be the most profitable thing to do this year might not be the most
environmentally friendly thing or the most sustainable thing to do.
(31:45):
And you know, there's bad actors as well in this as well.
It's difficult.
I was talking with my class last week on plastic waste.
And we went back to an advert from Keep America Beautiful, I think it is the body Keep America
Beautiful, which was founded by the CEOs of plastic companies.
(32:10):
And they released this advert basically telling people not to create plastic waste or to recycle
plastics.
Basically, and this is continued.
This isn't a new thing.
This is going back 30, 40 years though, when it started.
And this is a way of companies shifting the responsibility of things like waste production
or like energy generation onto the consumer.
(32:33):
And basically saying this is an awful, there's all this plastic waste around.
This is your fault.
There's all this plastic waste around.
So you need to sort it out by recycling.
And they don't include things in that like how difficult it is to actually recycle plastics.
And the fact that you can't really recycle some plastics or that plastics degrade every
time you recycle them.
(32:53):
So they just make it seem like it's your issue, not their issue.
So it's complicated.
And it gets it's complicated at a governmental level and it's complicated at a corporate
level.
But again, I'm going to say I'm not an expert in this.
I'm sure there's companies that are doing really good jobs and investing hard into things
(33:14):
like more sustainable technologies or more recyclable phones because we have to because
resources are running out in many cases.
Things like iridium, which is an element, goes into phone screen production.
I think there's only about a decade's worth of known reserves for iridium left.
So if you're a phone producer, you best be sure that you know how to recycle iridium
(33:37):
from your current phones because you can't produce any more in 10 years time unless we
find out an alternative for iridium in phone screens.
And I think a lot of companies do know about this.
And I think there is, you know, change probably behind the scenes that we don't always see.
I hope so anyway.
Definitely.
Yeah, agree with you.
So on more like another question on the companies or the product side, I recently looked up
(34:02):
there was a research done by I think it was brought up by the Wharton School by the compression
with the environmental side.
There was it was just a small research where they were asking people, would they care if
the companies or the products that they're buying, the companies are doing a good job
on the environmental side or how their let's say green brand image looks like.
(34:25):
More on the personal side, do you do you take into account that or would you will to pay
a bit more to buy a product from a company that invests more on the environmental field
or?
Yeah, so I'm in a privileged position I can afford to pay a little bit more for the products
that I buy in order to make them to buy something more sustainable.
(34:48):
I have a go at my wife all the time about this because she's she's she's less, I would
say less not concerned.
She's concerned, but she you know, she uses Amazon a lot and she purchases stuff and returns
stuff quite a lot, which drives me mad.
But you know, that's a that's a marital issue rather than anything else.
On a personal level, I do every time I buy something, I make quite a conscious decision
(35:09):
about what I'm buying.
For example, the shirt I'm wearing is from a company called United by Blue, who are certified
B Corporation.
I think it's made from like recycled.
There's something eco about it.
Okay, 40% recycled wool, 20% recycled nylon and 40% wool.
(35:29):
So I guess it's 60% recycled.
So that's a good start.
And this company like invest in taking waste out of the ocean as well.
So that makes me feel a little bit better.
I couldn't say the same about mine.
I'm also like, I'm not trying to judge people because you know, I am I'm receiving a salary
unlike many students who are trying to you know, paying a lot for their education and
(35:50):
also trying to make make means when it comes to buying stuff.
But yeah, I try and I try and take that into account for sure.
It's not always that easy to do, to be honest.
And there's definitely something called greenwashing going on where companies make you think they're
being green, but yeah, you know, it's just definitely building just the image and trying
(36:11):
to show people.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, to just to make you feel better about buying something.
And we have to be careful about that.
But there's you know, there's only certain you can't really do much about it in some
cases unless you really know everything about the company and what they're selling.
And the honest answer is that you know, the best way to save carbon is to not buy stuff
(36:35):
that you don't need.
So if you have a if you have a sweater that isn't got like riddled with holes, do you
really need to buy a new sweater?
You know, I'm not I'm not judging because I do I do these things I buy new clothes on
occasion.
I try not to buy too much and I try to buy it only when I need it.
Like I was walking around with a hole in my in my jeans for a few months before I bought
(36:58):
a new pair of jeans before my wife was like you can't do that.
Well, if the students see you with this hole in your jeans, it's just so I try and do that.
And I do look into things like, you know, recycling jeans.
Yeah, there are companies that do that for you.
And repairing jeans as well.
I think Levi's used to repair jeans.
I'm not sure they do anymore.
(37:18):
But yeah, I think it's important to do.
Yeah, I take some of these green initiatives with a little bit of a pinch of salt.
Awesome.
Yes.
Yeah, I think I think the I think the survey was done like in New York in Philly somewhere
in downtown.
So that's why it turned out about 60 65 percent of the people do care.
Okay.
Interesting.
(37:38):
I think that I do think the results will be very different if you go somewhere like outside
in the country or in some other countries because we are way more privileged here.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I guess there's there's also I don't know how they did the survey, but there's also
a thing that like you tell someone what you think they want to hear.
Yeah.
(37:59):
And I think 65 percent of people say they do take it into account.
Someone might be just telling you that because that's what you that's what you want to hear.
And they don't want to be judged for saying like, I don't bother with like reading the
label and see whether it's recycled nylon or not.
I just buy it.
And you know, the in some ways, the proof is in the pudding and we're like consuming
more than we've ever done in this country.
(38:21):
Yeah.
And that is not abating.
And we have things like Black Friday where people go nuts to get a new TV to replace
that old TV that's like two years old.
And no matter what people say, their actions speak a little bit louder than words.
And actually, the actions at the moment aren't fantastic.
Yeah.
But it does show it does show you that like companies should be interested in in what
(38:43):
people even if people are just saying things because they think it's what other people
want to hear.
Obviously, there's like interest in making things more sustainable or more green.
Sure.
Yeah, definitely.
And also, let me phrase this right.
So there are many like small environmental initiatives organizations out there.
(39:04):
So how would you think like the importance of their role?
So most of them just do maybe in the schools or any clubs, just environmental clubs, or
they do all sorts of stuff.
How would you think like?
I would say from my personal perspective, I would say it's more it's more valuable
(39:25):
for the people that are inside the club.
It's just it just gives more experience more maybe trying to build up some more awareness.
How would you think like their importances or how important they are?
Yeah, I think small organizations are really important in spreading the word and communicating
to the public.
And yeah, I yeah, again, it's not something that I know too much about, especially in
(39:50):
Philadelphia.
And I wish I knew a little bit more about this in Philadelphia, and hopefully I will
in the years to come.
But like these kind of organizations are very important at communicating climate change
science to the average everyday person.
And they're very important in gathering people together as well and creating community, which
is, which is, you know, if nothing else, that's an important thing.
(40:11):
Yeah.
So about gathering people about this, like, let's say teamwork around the environmental
issues.
So on the on the global level, we mentioned about the China and the US, like if US does
everything and China doesn't do anything, it wouldn't work out.
So how would you how would you rate like, the importancy of the global cooperation in
(40:33):
these things?
Do you think anything can work out if only like one side of the countries or one side
of the things work on it and the other doesn't?
Yeah, you should get Michael Mann on this podcast.
He's a busy man.
But yeah, hugely important.
And we won't get anywhere without international cooperation.
(40:53):
But it's it's the hardest thing is international cooperation when you have so many different
countries coming together with lots of different cultures and ways of thinking, and perhaps
priorities.
And it's very difficult also to tell countries what to do, particularly when you're in a
position such as like a Western country like the US or where I come from the UK, where
(41:15):
our economic growth in the past has been fossil fuel powered.
And now all of a sudden, we're telling other countries that are growing that they can't
use fossil fuels anymore.
And that's an extreme example.
But like, it's it's a little bit patronizing in some ways.
So we have to be careful with that.
And we also have to look after the countries that are, you know, really going to see the
(41:38):
biggest impacts like low lying islands, for example, some low lying islands with like
half a meter of sea level rise are going to be gone.
And you're going to have like 10s of thousands of displaced populations that are going to
need to go somewhere.
And you're going to have whole economies that are going to need to go somewhere.
So we need to come together as an international community to figure that out.
(42:01):
And that's why things like COP really important.
And that's why COP is, you know, in the news a lot at the moment, because it's going on.
But also because like, we need to come to some kind of agreement on this, because otherwise,
you know, everything else is.
Yeah, is isn't really important if there's no international agreement.
(42:24):
And you know, the thing the issue I have with COP, though, is that these all seem to be
fairly soft agreements.
And none of them are legally binding.
It's very different to do internationally.
But at least it's some kind of intention.
Yeah.
Better than nothing.
Sure.
So we are we are coming to the end.
And I wanted to know, like, if there is anything that you would like to share at the end or
(42:48):
for listeners or any call to action or anything that you would want to share at the end?
Well, I'd like to say that, you know, if you're interested in environmental science and you're
interested in the kind of themes that we've been talking about, do reach out to the Department
of Earth and Environmental Science.
We run a lot of really interesting courses if you're really interested in the science
behind this, which is the most fundamental thing about climate change or about environmental
(43:13):
change.
Look at our courses.
Hopefully you're interested in some of them.
From my kind of lab perspective, we're always looking for undergraduates to come in and
help work in the lab, doing some chemistry, help them run some of the instrumentation
and run the samples that we bring back from Greenland and Antarctica.
So if you're interested in getting hands on research experience, also reach out.
(43:38):
Look after yourself and look after the people around you.
Very soft words there, perhaps.
And be very intentional with your decision making, I think.
And think about things like your carbon footprint or your ecological footprint when you make
decisions.
Because even though I've said individual decisions don't matter hugely, they still matter and
(44:02):
they can spread as well.
Awesome.
Also, talk to your family about climate change.
Especially crazy Uncle Fred.
Very important.
Very important.
Yeah.
So thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Dr. O'Kings.
Thanks for having me.
Or John.
Yeah.
It was a great conversation.
It was just nice to talk about all of these things.
(44:23):
And yeah, so stay tuned for our future podcasts.
Yeah.
Have fun and be conscious about how you use everything.
And yeah, care about the planet.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Good luck everybody.
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