April 10, 2024 • 42 mins
Welcome back to "Talking Environment"! In this episode, we're thrilled to sit down with Noah Swistak, the Sustainability Manager at the University of Pennsylvania. Join us as we explore Noah's journey into the world of sustainability and his role in green initiatives at one of the leading universities in the world.
Noah shares fascinating insights into the challenges and successes of promoting sustainability within a large institution like UPenn. We'll also delve into Noah's passion for sustainability education and outreach, discussing the importance of inspiring the next generation of environmental leaders. Noah also shares practical tips for individuals and communities looking to adopt more sustainable lifestyles.
So tune in as we chat with Noah Swistak about driving sustainable change at UPenn and beyond.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Talking Environment. I'm really happy to host you here. I'm your host, Gevorg
(00:15):
Ghazaryan. And today we are with Noah Swistak, the sustainability manager at the University
of Pennsylvania. And tune your ears and let's start. So Noah, welcome to our show.
Thank you for inviting me. I'm very fortunate that in my job here as the sustainability
(00:35):
manager at Penn, I get to talk campus sustainability all day long anyway. So this is part of a
normal looking day for me. And I'm eager to tell listeners of the program a little bit
about the work we do in our office and around the university's climate sustainability action
(01:00):
plan and all the progress that's been made on that.
Awesome. Awesome. And thank you so much for accepting the invitation. I'm really glad
and I hope our listeners will get some insight into maybe what they can do or maybe it was
something they wanted to learn. So starting, so I think you have been involved in sustainability
(01:24):
initiatives for quite a long time now. So going back, I just wanted to know what was
something that maybe sparked your interest into environmental issues or why did you choose
this career? Yeah. And a lot of that actually started here at Penn about 15, 16 years ago.
(01:46):
So I came here for grad school to the school of design. It was not even the Weizmann School
of Design way back then, just Penn Design to study city planning. So I was in the master
of city planning degree program there. And I know things have changed a bit since then.
(02:10):
But back there around 2008, 2010 when I was here, that program had, I think, five different
concentrations within the degree program. And after sampling a bit of the course offerings
and understanding potential career implications around the different concentrations, I landed
(02:36):
on focusing on environmental planning. I think it was the official tag was environmental
and land use planning. I found a lot of the courses there and the related work to really
speak to me and sort of resonated in things that I was already concerned with and passionate
(02:57):
about outside of schoolwork. And as I began to think about what sort of places I might
end up employed and what kind of career paths I might have, things that lined up with that
environmental planning track really hit home for me. And it was a great two years I spent
(03:20):
here in the school of design enrolled in that. So a lot of that foundation got laid here
15 years ago.
Awesome. So that's a great journey from the school of design to the sustainability manager.
Right. Then last year I actually ended up back here at Penn, yeah, now employed by the
university, which is a lot of fun. But I always knew it might be a possibility someday, right?
(03:50):
That some that the right position might open up that would bring me back here. And it happened
just last year.
So why did you choose being a sustainability manager? Or was it something that you wanted
to do for a long time? Or was it something that just popped up and you decided that's
something that I want to go with?
Yeah. So I finished my master's here in 2010 and then had a couple of interesting positions
(04:17):
that immediately followed that. I spent a couple of years working in hunger relief for
Philabundance, the large food bank in the city. And then another couple of years working
in music for the Philadelphia Folk Song Society on the Philadelphia Folk Festival and countless
other folk concerts and other goings on there. Yeah. And that was a really fun and rewarding
(04:44):
couple of years. But I eventually then kind of had an urge to get back to a lot of the
work that I had just talked about that I had experienced here in my couple of years at
Penn. And then I found a position with a group whose acronym is AASHE, A-A-S-H-E, that's
(05:10):
the Association for the Advancement of Sustainability in Higher Education. So we worked with folks
who are now like me, right?
Right.
And we had a lot of the staff at colleges and universities all over North America, helping
them carry out their climate goals and move through their strategic planning processes
(05:38):
and their respective sustainability offices. So I was meeting people from all over the
country who were sometimes in these very large offices, 10, 12 people all working on climate
and sustainability measures and to sometimes smaller schools that might have been one individual.
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And I was, you know, always found myself fortunate to be working with these folks and admired,
you know, how much they were able to accomplish and the power of carrying out this type of
work in higher education. And so I was there at AASHE for between five and six years, right
(06:19):
around five and a half. And after that, it was a couple of years at a clean energy nonprofit
here in Philly, which I had a great time there and for a minute, you know, thought the next
phase of my career might have been a long time in the energy space. But it was this
job that opened up. And so now I was kind of moving back into the higher ed sustainability
(06:43):
space. And of course, it was here at Penn when I'd already had the couple of years here
and everything about the position just seemed to line up. I think before I saw it and applied,
I think one or two people just sent it, even though I wasn't looking, people said, you
know, did you see this job? This is feels like you. And, and yeah, I ended up applying
(07:07):
and eventually being offered and accepting the job. So, you know, kind of a winding road
that got me here between completing grad school and then landing back here as a staff member.
But in a way, a lot of it kind of makes sense. And it wasn't linear. But, you know, each
(07:32):
step kind of, you know, led to something else that ended up usually working out well for
me. So I'm fortunate for that. Awesome. That's a great story from organizing
the folk festivals. Yeah, right. Yeah. To the sustainability manager. Yeah. So this
(07:52):
all that you that you told us, I'm sure. So for our listeners, this makes you a very qualified
person to talk about the topics that we have prepared for today. And we are going to dive
into this like, more specifically later on. But I just wanted for you maybe to share like,
how is how does the overall sustainability picture look like a pen?
(08:15):
So a lot of the work that I do, or we do in the Penn Sustainability Office, right, and
it's a group of four of us, which is housed in FRES, in the Office of the University Architect.
A lot of our work is centered on the execution of Penn's Climate and Sustainability Action
(08:44):
Plan. And right now we're, we're carrying out the third version of that plan. So the
Climate and Sustainability Action Plan 3.0. Yeah. And, you know, if you go in and read
the plan, you can see that it covers a number of different initiative areas, right, from
(09:09):
utilities and energy consumption to the built environment and open space planning to transportation,
strategic waste, procurement, folding in academics into the work that we do, and then, you know,
various outreach and engagement initiatives. So most of the different programs that we
(09:33):
run or initiatives we carry out or events that we're involved with, or people we collaborate
with, all tie back to that plan. And they're based on, you know, a goal or a strategy that's
in that plan. So the plan is the universities, right, it's Penn's, but it serves as a roadmap
(09:56):
for our office's work and all that we do.
Awesome. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. And so we talked about the action plan. Now we have
the 2.0. I just maybe quickly, I just wanted for you to explain maybe like how your, let's
say, day-to-day efforts contribute to that action plan. Or before the podcast, you mentioned
(10:21):
that you were at some meetings for PemBike or some other programs. May I like how your
day-to-day efforts contribute to that?
Yeah, it's with dozens and dozens and dozens of different collaborators all throughout
the campus, right? Staff and faculty and students, because as I mentioned earlier, our office
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is just for people. So carrying out the dozens of goals that are in Penn's climate and sustainability
action plan requires working very closely with people who are, you know, making the
decisions and designing the programs around all those areas, right, those topic areas,
(11:06):
those areas that I mentioned. So I spend a lot of my time, you know, engaged with people
elsewhere, other colleagues in FRES, folks in business services, faculty members that,
you know, have some expertise in whatever the topic might be, students as well in many
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of these areas. The primary mechanism for carrying out this work is there's another
group called the Environmental Sustainability Advisory Committee, or ESAC. There's a lot
of acronyms here. The plan is CSAP, the advisory committee is ESAC. It's a lot to keep track
(11:54):
of. But that's a group of over 100 individuals all throughout campus that have, you know,
expertise and experience in these areas. And if, you know, let's just say, right, transportation,
right, there's a number of goals. You mentioned that the bike committee, where I just came
(12:16):
from, you know, our office carries out all that we can related to supporting, right,
bike infrastructure here at Penn, but we're just four people. So we need, you know, folks
from the transportation office and other people throughout, you know, FRES that can support
(12:39):
our work and students and faculty that, you know, are commuting by bike and all these
different individuals who are going to contribute and are necessary to carrying out those goals.
So it's a lot of collaboration, a lot of meetings and a lot of, you know, engaging with people
in almost every corner of campus to get our work done.
(13:03):
It's fascinating. That's interesting. So you mentioned a few times that there's only four
people in the sustainability office. So how do you feel about that? Do you feel there
is enough support from the university towards the sustainability initiatives or?
There's a lot of support provided. And though we're four and, you know, once in a while
I'm like, oh, goodness, it'd be great if we were 40. And I feel like you could use that.
(13:27):
But the extent to which, you know, those collaborations I referred to are supported and fostered by,
you know, leadership in different parts of the university is what allows us to get our
work done and do it well. And yeah, so despite us just being four, we've got support in a
(13:53):
number of different critical pockets. There's an office, the Environmental Innovations Initiative,
which is another small team that's housed under the provost. And they're, in a sense,
our sister office carrying out work, you know, directly with schools and faculty and researchers.
(14:19):
And so we work very closely with them and, you know, have a strong relationship with
all that they're doing over here and what we have going on. So yeah, there is a lot
of support, you know, and in just the short time I've been here or in the time that I've
been following Penn's work on this, right, since I was employed at ASHE, you know, I've
(14:42):
seen a lot of encouraging progress that doesn't happen with a lot of key involvement and support.
For example, just late last year, the university issued its new strategic framework in principle
and practice. And it had listed just a handful of, I believe classified as the challenges
(15:07):
of our time that Penn was going to rise to meet. And climate was the first one listed
there. So that's it. Out of anything that could have been mentioned, you know, the authors
of that framework, which the university is going to look to for its decision making going
forward, decided that, yeah, you know, climate is one of, if not the most pressing challenge
(15:32):
that this university should and is equipped to address. Yeah.
Yeah, that's quite an improvement. And from a student's view, it's also seen that there
is so much more support towards the sustainability initiatives. So it's right to say all the
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initiatives aren't centered around the sustainability of the office rather than its wide outside
structure around different committees, different offices.
Yeah. Yeah. It's just a broad network of committees and friends and collaborators out there that
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we're always grateful for. And sometimes it's in those folks' job descriptions. It's a natural
part of what they have to do. And sometimes it's not, right? They're doing this because
they believe it's important for Penn to be a leader nationally, internationally in any
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of these given different areas. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. That's glad to know that the work is
being effective, even though there are many structures, even though there are many people
involved from different committees, different offices. Yeah. So that's glad to know. And
so you mentioned a few programs that there has been an improvement from last year or
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since you came here. And would you like to share a couple of programs or initiatives
or projects that were pretty successful and had a ripple effect on campus or beyond campus?
Yeah. And given that we're recording this here in mid late March, I have to mention
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that just last week was a big day, not just for Penn Sustainability, but the university
as a whole, as we had our solar ribbon cutting event, which marked the completion and operationalization
of two large solar arrays in central Pennsylvania. So the development of this solar project and
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then eventual construction of it has been years in the making. And it's remarkable,
the scale of this project. So it began to come online in December and is still working
its way up to full functionality, right? Operationality. And so these two solar facilities combined
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are going to power or are powering now 70% of the electricity demand for both Penn's
main campus and the health system facilities that are in the greater Philadelphia area.
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So this is a big deal. So in a very short amount of time since these solar facilities
came online, 70% of all the power that Penn is using is supplied by 100% renewable solar
energy, all generated right here in the state. So we had a nice event in the climate centers
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space in the Fisher Fine Arts Library last month. President Jamieson was there along
with so many other individuals that played a part in moving this project forward over
the years. And it's, yeah, just coming from having worked in clean energy for a couple
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years before this, when I got here and learned of the project's size and scale, it is a 220
megawatt project. And for the listeners that, yeah, their heads wrapped around solar production,
that's just remarkable. Are those numbers right? We're building a 220 megawatt.
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I saw some posters today on the locust.
Yes, yeah, we put a banner up out there. Good, I'm glad that made it up.
Yeah, so it's nice to hear some more details about it.
Yeah, so this has been, you know, I've only been here a little over a year, but the people
that have been here much longer have been waiting for this moment and it's here. And
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so, you know, in addition to that, just, well, it's a wonderful story, but the reality of
it is, you know, we, right, pay very close attention to and report on Penn's overall
carbon footprint, right? Eventually, you know, moving Penn towards carbon neutrality, we've
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set 2042 as the goal when the university will be 100% carbon neutral. So just, you know,
with this one project here, and these two solar arrays, we're going to see a remarkable
reduction in Penn's carbon footprint. So in just the past few months, there has been this,
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you know, tremendous reduction in our carbon emissions. It's a huge step, a huge step in
our journey towards eventual neutrality. So yeah, it's been a very exciting time and putting
that event together and having everyone together just last week was terrific now.
(21:34):
Awesome. Yeah, that's good to hear and to learn some more details and to learn that.
I mean, we are seeing the banners on the locus and we are sometimes we aren't realizing how
much work there has been done before that to make that a reality. So that's glad to
hear.
(21:55):
Yeah. And yeah, and there's all kinds of other exciting, you know, bits and pieces that are
going into now the management of that project. We are, you know, working to position student
researchers to go out there and, you know, understand more about the land, right, the
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farmland that the solar arrays are built on and, you know, trying to engage as many people
as we can about what is going on, right, and what this means that 70% of all the electricity
that's powering the microphones, the lights and everything is now clean power, right.
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It's a terrific development for us.
Yeah. So you mentioned about student researchers and so I think this is a slight point how
we can move into what Penn Sustainability does to involve students on campus on the
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initiatives and if there are a couple that you would like to mention to our listeners
or
Yeah, a number of things. I mentioned, right, all the, right, a small team, we couldn't
do it without all these collaborators and students are critical to the work that we
carry out. We cannot do what we do without, you know, student participation. So I mentioned
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ESAC, which is, right, that Environmental Sustainability Advisory Committee, who advises
on the development and the execution of the climate and sustainability plan. So there
is a student arm, a student committee of ESAC known as SAGE, the Student Advisory Group
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for the Environment. And this year, that group's been providing recommendations to the other
ESAC committee chairs on what should be in Penn's next sustainability plan. We're actually
authoring the university's next plan right now and hope to publish that in the fall.
(24:16):
So that group SAGE, they've had a unique role this year because we're sort of finishing
up 3.0, right, you mentioned 3.0 and beginning to author what will be the next version of
the plan. So they've been providing recommendations on that. And then starting in the fall, you
know, that group will convene regularly to continue to advise on the plan's execution.
(24:41):
So it's a really important group that it's open to undergrad and grad students and people
can talk to me or find me about joining that. We're just talking right now about how to,
you know, plan for the fall and get that group running fall of this year. So that's one thing.
(25:04):
Our office runs the Green Living Program, where we're encouraging students to think
sustainably in all they're doing in their lives on campus, right, energy conservation,
water conservation, making conscious decisions around transportation and dining and food.
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And there's different levels of certification and ways that people can participate there.
So if people are looking for, you know, somewhere to start, right, on, okay, so what is the
Penn Sustainability Office advising for me to help lower Penn's carbon footprint? What
can I do? That Green Living Program has a nice framework set up for that. We employ
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a lot of students throughout the year. There's, you know, positions in our office in the summer
and the academic year that, you know, interns just crucial to what we get done. And then
there's lots of fun stuff too. You know, Earth Week is something that we oversee. It's coming
up just about a month from now. And there's always a, you know, a lot of student involvement
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there, organizing events and such. And I also manage the Student Eco-Reps Program, where
every year we'll have, it's often between 15 and 20 students working on a collection
of campus sustainability projects for an entire academic year. So I find different project
(26:44):
partners who then, you know, work closely and advise these students on carrying out
some kind of initiative that relates back to the Climate Action Plan. So for example,
you know, this year the Eco-Reps teams are beginning to wrap up their work and prepare
(27:06):
final projects and presentations. And we've got a group working on bird-friendly initiatives,
another group working with our housekeeping team on strategic waste initiatives, another
group working with Penn Dining on some back-of-house energy consumption projects, another group
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connected with the Netter Center and their ABCS course program, and so, and then another
group connected with Penn Vet and helping them in some of their programming related
to biodiversity. So that's something I would encourage students to look to. By the time
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this podcast goes up, I'm hoping that we'll begin accepting applications for Student Eco-Reps
for next year. And so that's a paid position. We meet once a week the entire group to, you
know, I bring in guest speakers and, you know, talk about really all things climate and sustainability
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while at the same time all these groups are carrying out their project work.
Awesome. So the Eco-Reps just like facilitate the events or facilitate the projects that
are going on with during that year?
Yep. Yep. It's, yeah, they, you know, are given typically a work plan that they'll develop
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at the start of the year with the project partner. And I'm there to advise on that as
that's being developed. And then, you know, have a set of responsibilities that they're
carrying out throughout an entire year. And oftentimes there's a lot asked of them, right?
You know, this is over a roughly eight, nine month period and there's some, you know, lofty
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ideas and goals thrown around there and put in front of the Eco-Reps. And it's, you know,
heartening for me to see them rise to those challenges and perform that work at a very
high level and make meaningful impacts on the campus. And yeah, it's a fun program to
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manage and we've got, you know, final presentations and papers coming up soon. So for any of the
Eco-Reps listening, you guys are going to get it done. I know you'll make it.
Awesome. Yeah, that's fun. That's fun.
Yeah. But students interested, students can contact me if they have questions.
Of course. Yeah.
We'll have info on the Penn Sustainability website about applications.
(29:51):
Awesome. Yeah. That's glad to know that there's also some fun doing these projects and trying
to get involved. As much as we all love doing sustainability projects, it's also important.
I would say it's crucial. It's a must to have fun also doing that. Also as students. So
that's glad to know. And also I had a question, like a daily question, I would say. So what
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would be some advice to our listeners if they want to do something sustainable every day?
Maybe they decided to change their life and live now sustainably. What is one step or
what can that day look like if they decided to do so?
(30:42):
Yeah. One thing I have to recommend, especially given my prior professional history, and this
might not be relevant, say, for students living on campus, but you've got a broader listener
base, right? And I would... So for anyone listening, and if you can't do this yet, maybe you can
do it soon, but that is to choose a renewable energy supplier and look elsewhere if you're
(31:10):
in southeastern Pennsylvania from PICO, right? Because they are supplying your home or your
workplace with mostly dirty electricity that's coming from natural gas and a bit from coal
fired power plants. So there are alternatives to that. You can choose clean energy suppliers
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that offer wind or solar or a mix of that. And so just in terms of a direct, immediate,
quickly and immediately addressing your carbon footprint, that is, I would say, an essential
thing to do. So I'm supplied by another group and they power my house with wind and solar
(31:58):
power. And so this is safe. If I'm not able to put panels on my roof for whatever reason,
this is an alternative to that. So for anybody that pays an electric bill, usually that's
the only requirement. Look elsewhere and find a clean power supplier. There are even bubbling
(32:20):
up in different parts of the country, including in Philly, you can find alternatives to natural
gas suppliers that might supply you with renewable natural gas, which is pretty cool and moves
you away from PGW and being dependent on that. So that's one thing. And we're lucky, we're
(32:41):
lucky to live here in Philly where we have access to an impressive bounty of food that's
grown locally here. I mean, even right in our city, there's things you can find here
(33:02):
in the Penn farm, right? We're growing our own food on campus. But even a bit beyond
that throughout the region, it is available to us, right? Given our climate and the good
soils that we have in this part of the country, there is a delicious and diverse collection
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of foods that you can buy. And with some effort, you can actually find that you can get most
of your produce, right? Your veggies or if you're a meat eater, your meat from somewhere
(33:47):
within an hour or two. I do that from I'm connected with a farm in Delaware for a community
support or community supported agriculture program or the CSA. So I'd pick up a box of
veggies at the coffee shop across the house, across the street from my house every week.
(34:08):
And it's like 17 bucks and it's great. And then I'm covered for the week. And so, you
know, think about how remarkable that is. I'm supporting the small farm about an hour away.
And I virtually never have to buy vegetables that were grown as part of one of these mass
(34:29):
agriculture things and shipped from California or anything like that. And there's a host
of those CSAs and farms that have farm shares like that in the area. And I found it's typically
more affordable than... Yeah. And there's farmers markets and other stores that specialize
(34:54):
in that look, but I found that's the simplest and most direct way. So those are two ways
that I really enjoy addressing my personal footprint. I tell people to bike. Philly is
safe for a couple of pockets in the Northwest and elsewhere. Philly is a very flat city
and it's really easy to bike around. And the infrastructure is ever improving in terms
(35:21):
of bike lanes and bike safety and bike parking and all these things that we think about a
lot. But for the most part, it's a really easy city to move around in by bike. And that's
how I got to campus this morning and we'll get home tonight. So if people, maybe students
(35:45):
who have moved here from somewhere else, and I know it can be intimidating or feel a little
strange just embarking on a bike trip in a new place or where they haven't ventured too
far or maybe they're on a rented bike or something like that. But Philly, and especially
West Philly is relatively well equipped for that.
(36:08):
Yeah, definitely. It's interesting to hear about those local programs I've never heard
of. And we have talked about suppliers and how it is for you more affordable to buy from
a local supplier from a local farm. And I've came across a study, I think it was a couple
of weeks ago, it was saying that about 60, 70% of the people living in the Philly, New
(36:37):
York area are ready to pay more for the products that are sustainably manufactured or that
are manufactured from companies that are supporting sustainability initiatives. So what do you
think about that? Do you think people actually would do that or they're saying that to maybe
(37:00):
sound sustainable friendly? Or what do you think about that?
Yeah, I see it. And it's a broad spectrum. On the affordability piece, it's tricky because
some people I know might go to a farmer's market or a specialty market that brings in
local produce and might experience a bit of sticker shock compared to what else they're
(37:22):
seeing. I'm just speaking from my own arrangement that I have at this one. I get a big box of
vegetables for what I think is a very fair price of around $17. And is there an appetite
for it? Absolutely. Just thinking about trends and tastes among my friends over the last
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say 10 or 15 years, people might go out of their way or spend the extra dollar or two
on something that they understand more about where it came from or how it got to them or
wasn't wrapped in all the plastic or whatever it might be. And yeah, there's a long way
(38:10):
to go in addressing the parts of our food systems that are in need of some repair. But
like I said, where we live, we have seasons here and there's different crops at different
times of the year. And it can be not just healthy and somewhat affordable, but kind
(38:39):
of fun to experience that. Or if you're fortunate enough to have the space, grow your own. You
can get an impressive yield even in a little plot in the backyard. That's the best thing.
Yeah. This smells the best. Awesome. So we are coming to the end. And towards the end,
(38:59):
I wanted to know if there is anything else you could share or what is next for sustainability
at Penn or any advice that you would want to give to the students, anything that you
would want them to know. Yeah. As I mentioned, hopefully if all goes
well this fall, we'll publish the next climate and sustainability action plan for Penn. And
(39:24):
that'll be the roadmap for the next five years. And so to stay tuned for that as we begin
to roll that out and announce that. And just that there's so much going on. Other things
you mentioned that we have in the works, there's a lot happening. I'm part of a working group
(39:48):
right now who's actively talking about how we're going to eventually transition Penn's
fleet. The university owns over 200 cars from internal combustion engines to electric vehicles.
And so all these different things that play into our overall carbon footprint, we're talking
about them. And it's all these very exciting conversations, very sometimes tough conversations.
(40:14):
Well, in that case, sometimes these vehicles are more expensive. You have to find infrastructure
to charge them, but we're addressing all this stuff. I recently helped put together a green
IT working group and have representatives from a number of different schools, IT directors
(40:36):
and other people who work in their IT offices in the respective schools talking about how
we can reduce the carbon footprint from our computing and talking about circularity with
the products we buy and thinking about all the energy use that data centers and thinking
(40:58):
about AI and how this factors into this. So we just, you know, I've had a few meetings
so far and are just scratching the surface of this, but you know, these are just a couple
of examples of like the early conversations we're having that, you know, down the road
are going to have remarkable impact, right, on Penn's operations and how we can really
(41:19):
continue to be a leader, you know, among higher ed institutions, you know, in climate and
sustainability.
Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. And I think that would be it for
today. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for accepting the invitation.
(41:43):
And I'm sure our listeners get more insight into how sustainability works at Penn and
maybe also some advice what they can do with their career or with their daily life. I mean,
personally, I also got to know some more things that are happening at Penn and not just seeing
the banners and just going. So that's all for today's episode of Talking Environment.
(42:07):
Thank you so much to Noah Swistock for joining us. So it was me, your host, Kevor Gazarian.
And be sure to connect to us next time for more insights and conversations. And thank
you for listening and have a great day.
Welcome to Talking Environment. I'm really happy to host you here. I'm your host, Gevorg
(00:15):
Ghazaryan. And today we are with Noah Swistak, the sustainability manager at the University
of Pennsylvania. And tune your ears and let's start. So Noah, welcome to our show.
Thank you for inviting me. I'm very fortunate that in my job here as the sustainability
(00:35):
manager at Penn, I get to talk campus sustainability all day long anyway. So this is part of a
normal looking day for me. And I'm eager to tell listeners of the program a little bit
about the work we do in our office and around the university's climate sustainability action
(01:00):
plan and all the progress that's been made on that.
Awesome. Awesome. And thank you so much for accepting the invitation. I'm really glad
and I hope our listeners will get some insight into maybe what they can do or maybe it was
something they wanted to learn. So starting, so I think you have been involved in sustainability
(01:24):
initiatives for quite a long time now. So going back, I just wanted to know what was
something that maybe sparked your interest into environmental issues or why did you choose
this career? Yeah. And a lot of that actually started here at Penn about 15, 16 years ago.
(01:46):
So I came here for grad school to the school of design. It was not even the Weizmann School
of Design way back then, just Penn Design to study city planning. So I was in the master
of city planning degree program there. And I know things have changed a bit since then.
(02:10):
But back there around 2008, 2010 when I was here, that program had, I think, five different
concentrations within the degree program. And after sampling a bit of the course offerings
and understanding potential career implications around the different concentrations, I landed
(02:36):
on focusing on environmental planning. I think it was the official tag was environmental
and land use planning. I found a lot of the courses there and the related work to really
speak to me and sort of resonated in things that I was already concerned with and passionate
(02:57):
about outside of schoolwork. And as I began to think about what sort of places I might
end up employed and what kind of career paths I might have, things that lined up with that
environmental planning track really hit home for me. And it was a great two years I spent
(03:20):
here in the school of design enrolled in that. So a lot of that foundation got laid here
15 years ago.
Awesome. So that's a great journey from the school of design to the sustainability manager.
Right. Then last year I actually ended up back here at Penn, yeah, now employed by the
university, which is a lot of fun. But I always knew it might be a possibility someday, right?
(03:50):
That some that the right position might open up that would bring me back here. And it happened
just last year.
So why did you choose being a sustainability manager? Or was it something that you wanted
to do for a long time? Or was it something that just popped up and you decided that's
something that I want to go with?
Yeah. So I finished my master's here in 2010 and then had a couple of interesting positions
(04:17):
that immediately followed that. I spent a couple of years working in hunger relief for
Philabundance, the large food bank in the city. And then another couple of years working
in music for the Philadelphia Folk Song Society on the Philadelphia Folk Festival and countless
other folk concerts and other goings on there. Yeah. And that was a really fun and rewarding
(04:44):
couple of years. But I eventually then kind of had an urge to get back to a lot of the
work that I had just talked about that I had experienced here in my couple of years at
Penn. And then I found a position with a group whose acronym is AASHE, A-A-S-H-E, that's
(05:10):
the Association for the Advancement of Sustainability in Higher Education. So we worked with folks
who are now like me, right?
Right.
And we had a lot of the staff at colleges and universities all over North America, helping
them carry out their climate goals and move through their strategic planning processes
(05:38):
and their respective sustainability offices. So I was meeting people from all over the
country who were sometimes in these very large offices, 10, 12 people all working on climate
and sustainability measures and to sometimes smaller schools that might have been one individual.
(05:58):
And I was, you know, always found myself fortunate to be working with these folks and admired,
you know, how much they were able to accomplish and the power of carrying out this type of
work in higher education. And so I was there at AASHE for between five and six years, right
(06:19):
around five and a half. And after that, it was a couple of years at a clean energy nonprofit
here in Philly, which I had a great time there and for a minute, you know, thought the next
phase of my career might have been a long time in the energy space. But it was this
job that opened up. And so now I was kind of moving back into the higher ed sustainability
(06:43):
space. And of course, it was here at Penn when I'd already had the couple of years here
and everything about the position just seemed to line up. I think before I saw it and applied,
I think one or two people just sent it, even though I wasn't looking, people said, you
know, did you see this job? This is feels like you. And, and yeah, I ended up applying
(07:07):
and eventually being offered and accepting the job. So, you know, kind of a winding road
that got me here between completing grad school and then landing back here as a staff member.
But in a way, a lot of it kind of makes sense. And it wasn't linear. But, you know, each
(07:32):
step kind of, you know, led to something else that ended up usually working out well for
me. So I'm fortunate for that. Awesome. That's a great story from organizing
the folk festivals. Yeah, right. Yeah. To the sustainability manager. Yeah. So this
(07:52):
all that you that you told us, I'm sure. So for our listeners, this makes you a very qualified
person to talk about the topics that we have prepared for today. And we are going to dive
into this like, more specifically later on. But I just wanted for you maybe to share like,
how is how does the overall sustainability picture look like a pen?
(08:15):
So a lot of the work that I do, or we do in the Penn Sustainability Office, right, and
it's a group of four of us, which is housed in FRES, in the Office of the University Architect.
A lot of our work is centered on the execution of Penn's Climate and Sustainability Action
(08:44):
Plan. And right now we're, we're carrying out the third version of that plan. So the
Climate and Sustainability Action Plan 3.0. Yeah. And, you know, if you go in and read
the plan, you can see that it covers a number of different initiative areas, right, from
(09:09):
utilities and energy consumption to the built environment and open space planning to transportation,
strategic waste, procurement, folding in academics into the work that we do, and then, you know,
various outreach and engagement initiatives. So most of the different programs that we
(09:33):
run or initiatives we carry out or events that we're involved with, or people we collaborate
with, all tie back to that plan. And they're based on, you know, a goal or a strategy that's
in that plan. So the plan is the universities, right, it's Penn's, but it serves as a roadmap
(09:56):
for our office's work and all that we do.
Awesome. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. And so we talked about the action plan. Now we have
the 2.0. I just maybe quickly, I just wanted for you to explain maybe like how your, let's
say, day-to-day efforts contribute to that action plan. Or before the podcast, you mentioned
(10:21):
that you were at some meetings for PemBike or some other programs. May I like how your
day-to-day efforts contribute to that?
Yeah, it's with dozens and dozens and dozens of different collaborators all throughout
the campus, right? Staff and faculty and students, because as I mentioned earlier, our office
(10:42):
is just for people. So carrying out the dozens of goals that are in Penn's climate and sustainability
action plan requires working very closely with people who are, you know, making the
decisions and designing the programs around all those areas, right, those topic areas,
(11:06):
those areas that I mentioned. So I spend a lot of my time, you know, engaged with people
elsewhere, other colleagues in FRES, folks in business services, faculty members that,
you know, have some expertise in whatever the topic might be, students as well in many
(11:30):
of these areas. The primary mechanism for carrying out this work is there's another
group called the Environmental Sustainability Advisory Committee, or ESAC. There's a lot
of acronyms here. The plan is CSAP, the advisory committee is ESAC. It's a lot to keep track
(11:54):
of. But that's a group of over 100 individuals all throughout campus that have, you know,
expertise and experience in these areas. And if, you know, let's just say, right, transportation,
right, there's a number of goals. You mentioned that the bike committee, where I just came
(12:16):
from, you know, our office carries out all that we can related to supporting, right,
bike infrastructure here at Penn, but we're just four people. So we need, you know, folks
from the transportation office and other people throughout, you know, FRES that can support
(12:39):
our work and students and faculty that, you know, are commuting by bike and all these
different individuals who are going to contribute and are necessary to carrying out those goals.
So it's a lot of collaboration, a lot of meetings and a lot of, you know, engaging with people
in almost every corner of campus to get our work done.
(13:03):
It's fascinating. That's interesting. So you mentioned a few times that there's only four
people in the sustainability office. So how do you feel about that? Do you feel there
is enough support from the university towards the sustainability initiatives or?
There's a lot of support provided. And though we're four and, you know, once in a while
I'm like, oh, goodness, it'd be great if we were 40. And I feel like you could use that.
(13:27):
But the extent to which, you know, those collaborations I referred to are supported and fostered by,
you know, leadership in different parts of the university is what allows us to get our
work done and do it well. And yeah, so despite us just being four, we've got support in a
(13:53):
number of different critical pockets. There's an office, the Environmental Innovations Initiative,
which is another small team that's housed under the provost. And they're, in a sense,
our sister office carrying out work, you know, directly with schools and faculty and researchers.
(14:19):
And so we work very closely with them and, you know, have a strong relationship with
all that they're doing over here and what we have going on. So yeah, there is a lot
of support, you know, and in just the short time I've been here or in the time that I've
been following Penn's work on this, right, since I was employed at ASHE, you know, I've
(14:42):
seen a lot of encouraging progress that doesn't happen with a lot of key involvement and support.
For example, just late last year, the university issued its new strategic framework in principle
and practice. And it had listed just a handful of, I believe classified as the challenges
(15:07):
of our time that Penn was going to rise to meet. And climate was the first one listed
there. So that's it. Out of anything that could have been mentioned, you know, the authors
of that framework, which the university is going to look to for its decision making going
forward, decided that, yeah, you know, climate is one of, if not the most pressing challenge
(15:32):
that this university should and is equipped to address. Yeah.
Yeah, that's quite an improvement. And from a student's view, it's also seen that there
is so much more support towards the sustainability initiatives. So it's right to say all the
(15:53):
initiatives aren't centered around the sustainability of the office rather than its wide outside
structure around different committees, different offices.
Yeah. Yeah. It's just a broad network of committees and friends and collaborators out there that
(16:14):
we're always grateful for. And sometimes it's in those folks' job descriptions. It's a natural
part of what they have to do. And sometimes it's not, right? They're doing this because
they believe it's important for Penn to be a leader nationally, internationally in any
(16:34):
of these given different areas. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. That's glad to know that the work is
being effective, even though there are many structures, even though there are many people
involved from different committees, different offices. Yeah. So that's glad to know. And
so you mentioned a few programs that there has been an improvement from last year or
(16:58):
since you came here. And would you like to share a couple of programs or initiatives
or projects that were pretty successful and had a ripple effect on campus or beyond campus?
Yeah. And given that we're recording this here in mid late March, I have to mention
(17:25):
that just last week was a big day, not just for Penn Sustainability, but the university
as a whole, as we had our solar ribbon cutting event, which marked the completion and operationalization
of two large solar arrays in central Pennsylvania. So the development of this solar project and
(17:53):
then eventual construction of it has been years in the making. And it's remarkable,
the scale of this project. So it began to come online in December and is still working
its way up to full functionality, right? Operationality. And so these two solar facilities combined
(18:22):
are going to power or are powering now 70% of the electricity demand for both Penn's
main campus and the health system facilities that are in the greater Philadelphia area.
(18:42):
So this is a big deal. So in a very short amount of time since these solar facilities
came online, 70% of all the power that Penn is using is supplied by 100% renewable solar
energy, all generated right here in the state. So we had a nice event in the climate centers
(19:10):
space in the Fisher Fine Arts Library last month. President Jamieson was there along
with so many other individuals that played a part in moving this project forward over
the years. And it's, yeah, just coming from having worked in clean energy for a couple
(19:33):
years before this, when I got here and learned of the project's size and scale, it is a 220
megawatt project. And for the listeners that, yeah, their heads wrapped around solar production,
that's just remarkable. Are those numbers right? We're building a 220 megawatt.
(19:57):
I saw some posters today on the locust.
Yes, yeah, we put a banner up out there. Good, I'm glad that made it up.
Yeah, so it's nice to hear some more details about it.
Yeah, so this has been, you know, I've only been here a little over a year, but the people
that have been here much longer have been waiting for this moment and it's here. And
(20:18):
so, you know, in addition to that, just, well, it's a wonderful story, but the reality of
it is, you know, we, right, pay very close attention to and report on Penn's overall
carbon footprint, right? Eventually, you know, moving Penn towards carbon neutrality, we've
(20:44):
set 2042 as the goal when the university will be 100% carbon neutral. So just, you know,
with this one project here, and these two solar arrays, we're going to see a remarkable
reduction in Penn's carbon footprint. So in just the past few months, there has been this,
(21:10):
you know, tremendous reduction in our carbon emissions. It's a huge step, a huge step in
our journey towards eventual neutrality. So yeah, it's been a very exciting time and putting
that event together and having everyone together just last week was terrific now.
(21:34):
Awesome. Yeah, that's good to hear and to learn some more details and to learn that.
I mean, we are seeing the banners on the locus and we are sometimes we aren't realizing how
much work there has been done before that to make that a reality. So that's glad to
hear.
(21:55):
Yeah. And yeah, and there's all kinds of other exciting, you know, bits and pieces that are
going into now the management of that project. We are, you know, working to position student
researchers to go out there and, you know, understand more about the land, right, the
(22:19):
farmland that the solar arrays are built on and, you know, trying to engage as many people
as we can about what is going on, right, and what this means that 70% of all the electricity
that's powering the microphones, the lights and everything is now clean power, right.
(22:39):
It's a terrific development for us.
Yeah. So you mentioned about student researchers and so I think this is a slight point how
we can move into what Penn Sustainability does to involve students on campus on the
(23:01):
initiatives and if there are a couple that you would like to mention to our listeners
or
Yeah, a number of things. I mentioned, right, all the, right, a small team, we couldn't
do it without all these collaborators and students are critical to the work that we
carry out. We cannot do what we do without, you know, student participation. So I mentioned
(23:26):
ESAC, which is, right, that Environmental Sustainability Advisory Committee, who advises
on the development and the execution of the climate and sustainability plan. So there
is a student arm, a student committee of ESAC known as SAGE, the Student Advisory Group
(23:49):
for the Environment. And this year, that group's been providing recommendations to the other
ESAC committee chairs on what should be in Penn's next sustainability plan. We're actually
authoring the university's next plan right now and hope to publish that in the fall.
(24:16):
So that group SAGE, they've had a unique role this year because we're sort of finishing
up 3.0, right, you mentioned 3.0 and beginning to author what will be the next version of
the plan. So they've been providing recommendations on that. And then starting in the fall, you
know, that group will convene regularly to continue to advise on the plan's execution.
(24:41):
So it's a really important group that it's open to undergrad and grad students and people
can talk to me or find me about joining that. We're just talking right now about how to,
you know, plan for the fall and get that group running fall of this year. So that's one thing.
(25:04):
Our office runs the Green Living Program, where we're encouraging students to think
sustainably in all they're doing in their lives on campus, right, energy conservation,
water conservation, making conscious decisions around transportation and dining and food.
(25:26):
And there's different levels of certification and ways that people can participate there.
So if people are looking for, you know, somewhere to start, right, on, okay, so what is the
Penn Sustainability Office advising for me to help lower Penn's carbon footprint? What
can I do? That Green Living Program has a nice framework set up for that. We employ
(25:51):
a lot of students throughout the year. There's, you know, positions in our office in the summer
and the academic year that, you know, interns just crucial to what we get done. And then
there's lots of fun stuff too. You know, Earth Week is something that we oversee. It's coming
up just about a month from now. And there's always a, you know, a lot of student involvement
(26:18):
there, organizing events and such. And I also manage the Student Eco-Reps Program, where
every year we'll have, it's often between 15 and 20 students working on a collection
of campus sustainability projects for an entire academic year. So I find different project
(26:44):
partners who then, you know, work closely and advise these students on carrying out
some kind of initiative that relates back to the Climate Action Plan. So for example,
you know, this year the Eco-Reps teams are beginning to wrap up their work and prepare
(27:06):
final projects and presentations. And we've got a group working on bird-friendly initiatives,
another group working with our housekeeping team on strategic waste initiatives, another
group working with Penn Dining on some back-of-house energy consumption projects, another group
(27:32):
connected with the Netter Center and their ABCS course program, and so, and then another
group connected with Penn Vet and helping them in some of their programming related
to biodiversity. So that's something I would encourage students to look to. By the time
(27:55):
this podcast goes up, I'm hoping that we'll begin accepting applications for Student Eco-Reps
for next year. And so that's a paid position. We meet once a week the entire group to, you
know, I bring in guest speakers and, you know, talk about really all things climate and sustainability
(28:18):
while at the same time all these groups are carrying out their project work.
Awesome. So the Eco-Reps just like facilitate the events or facilitate the projects that
are going on with during that year?
Yep. Yep. It's, yeah, they, you know, are given typically a work plan that they'll develop
(28:43):
at the start of the year with the project partner. And I'm there to advise on that as
that's being developed. And then, you know, have a set of responsibilities that they're
carrying out throughout an entire year. And oftentimes there's a lot asked of them, right?
You know, this is over a roughly eight, nine month period and there's some, you know, lofty
(29:06):
ideas and goals thrown around there and put in front of the Eco-Reps. And it's, you know,
heartening for me to see them rise to those challenges and perform that work at a very
high level and make meaningful impacts on the campus. And yeah, it's a fun program to
(29:29):
manage and we've got, you know, final presentations and papers coming up soon. So for any of the
Eco-Reps listening, you guys are going to get it done. I know you'll make it.
Awesome. Yeah, that's fun. That's fun.
Yeah. But students interested, students can contact me if they have questions.
Of course. Yeah.
We'll have info on the Penn Sustainability website about applications.
(29:51):
Awesome. Yeah. That's glad to know that there's also some fun doing these projects and trying
to get involved. As much as we all love doing sustainability projects, it's also important.
I would say it's crucial. It's a must to have fun also doing that. Also as students. So
that's glad to know. And also I had a question, like a daily question, I would say. So what
(30:22):
would be some advice to our listeners if they want to do something sustainable every day?
Maybe they decided to change their life and live now sustainably. What is one step or
what can that day look like if they decided to do so?
(30:42):
Yeah. One thing I have to recommend, especially given my prior professional history, and this
might not be relevant, say, for students living on campus, but you've got a broader listener
base, right? And I would... So for anyone listening, and if you can't do this yet, maybe you can
do it soon, but that is to choose a renewable energy supplier and look elsewhere if you're
(31:10):
in southeastern Pennsylvania from PICO, right? Because they are supplying your home or your
workplace with mostly dirty electricity that's coming from natural gas and a bit from coal
fired power plants. So there are alternatives to that. You can choose clean energy suppliers
(31:34):
that offer wind or solar or a mix of that. And so just in terms of a direct, immediate,
quickly and immediately addressing your carbon footprint, that is, I would say, an essential
thing to do. So I'm supplied by another group and they power my house with wind and solar
(31:58):
power. And so this is safe. If I'm not able to put panels on my roof for whatever reason,
this is an alternative to that. So for anybody that pays an electric bill, usually that's
the only requirement. Look elsewhere and find a clean power supplier. There are even bubbling
(32:20):
up in different parts of the country, including in Philly, you can find alternatives to natural
gas suppliers that might supply you with renewable natural gas, which is pretty cool and moves
you away from PGW and being dependent on that. So that's one thing. And we're lucky, we're
(32:41):
lucky to live here in Philly where we have access to an impressive bounty of food that's
grown locally here. I mean, even right in our city, there's things you can find here
(33:02):
in the Penn farm, right? We're growing our own food on campus. But even a bit beyond
that throughout the region, it is available to us, right? Given our climate and the good
soils that we have in this part of the country, there is a delicious and diverse collection
(33:26):
of foods that you can buy. And with some effort, you can actually find that you can get most
of your produce, right? Your veggies or if you're a meat eater, your meat from somewhere
(33:47):
within an hour or two. I do that from I'm connected with a farm in Delaware for a community
support or community supported agriculture program or the CSA. So I'd pick up a box of
veggies at the coffee shop across the house, across the street from my house every week.
(34:08):
And it's like 17 bucks and it's great. And then I'm covered for the week. And so, you
know, think about how remarkable that is. I'm supporting the small farm about an hour away.
And I virtually never have to buy vegetables that were grown as part of one of these mass
(34:29):
agriculture things and shipped from California or anything like that. And there's a host
of those CSAs and farms that have farm shares like that in the area. And I found it's typically
more affordable than... Yeah. And there's farmers markets and other stores that specialize
(34:54):
in that look, but I found that's the simplest and most direct way. So those are two ways
that I really enjoy addressing my personal footprint. I tell people to bike. Philly is
safe for a couple of pockets in the Northwest and elsewhere. Philly is a very flat city
and it's really easy to bike around. And the infrastructure is ever improving in terms
(35:21):
of bike lanes and bike safety and bike parking and all these things that we think about a
lot. But for the most part, it's a really easy city to move around in by bike. And that's
how I got to campus this morning and we'll get home tonight. So if people, maybe students
(35:45):
who have moved here from somewhere else, and I know it can be intimidating or feel a little
strange just embarking on a bike trip in a new place or where they haven't ventured too
far or maybe they're on a rented bike or something like that. But Philly, and especially
West Philly is relatively well equipped for that.
(36:08):
Yeah, definitely. It's interesting to hear about those local programs I've never heard
of. And we have talked about suppliers and how it is for you more affordable to buy from
a local supplier from a local farm. And I've came across a study, I think it was a couple
of weeks ago, it was saying that about 60, 70% of the people living in the Philly, New
(36:37):
York area are ready to pay more for the products that are sustainably manufactured or that
are manufactured from companies that are supporting sustainability initiatives. So what do you
think about that? Do you think people actually would do that or they're saying that to maybe
(37:00):
sound sustainable friendly? Or what do you think about that?
Yeah, I see it. And it's a broad spectrum. On the affordability piece, it's tricky because
some people I know might go to a farmer's market or a specialty market that brings in
local produce and might experience a bit of sticker shock compared to what else they're
(37:22):
seeing. I'm just speaking from my own arrangement that I have at this one. I get a big box of
vegetables for what I think is a very fair price of around $17. And is there an appetite
for it? Absolutely. Just thinking about trends and tastes among my friends over the last
(37:44):
say 10 or 15 years, people might go out of their way or spend the extra dollar or two
on something that they understand more about where it came from or how it got to them or
wasn't wrapped in all the plastic or whatever it might be. And yeah, there's a long way
(38:10):
to go in addressing the parts of our food systems that are in need of some repair. But
like I said, where we live, we have seasons here and there's different crops at different
times of the year. And it can be not just healthy and somewhat affordable, but kind
(38:39):
of fun to experience that. Or if you're fortunate enough to have the space, grow your own. You
can get an impressive yield even in a little plot in the backyard. That's the best thing.
Yeah. This smells the best. Awesome. So we are coming to the end. And towards the end,
(38:59):
I wanted to know if there is anything else you could share or what is next for sustainability
at Penn or any advice that you would want to give to the students, anything that you
would want them to know. Yeah. As I mentioned, hopefully if all goes
well this fall, we'll publish the next climate and sustainability action plan for Penn. And
(39:24):
that'll be the roadmap for the next five years. And so to stay tuned for that as we begin
to roll that out and announce that. And just that there's so much going on. Other things
you mentioned that we have in the works, there's a lot happening. I'm part of a working group
(39:48):
right now who's actively talking about how we're going to eventually transition Penn's
fleet. The university owns over 200 cars from internal combustion engines to electric vehicles.
And so all these different things that play into our overall carbon footprint, we're talking
about them. And it's all these very exciting conversations, very sometimes tough conversations.
(40:14):
Well, in that case, sometimes these vehicles are more expensive. You have to find infrastructure
to charge them, but we're addressing all this stuff. I recently helped put together a green
IT working group and have representatives from a number of different schools, IT directors
(40:36):
and other people who work in their IT offices in the respective schools talking about how
we can reduce the carbon footprint from our computing and talking about circularity with
the products we buy and thinking about all the energy use that data centers and thinking
(40:58):
about AI and how this factors into this. So we just, you know, I've had a few meetings
so far and are just scratching the surface of this, but you know, these are just a couple
of examples of like the early conversations we're having that, you know, down the road
are going to have remarkable impact, right, on Penn's operations and how we can really
(41:19):
continue to be a leader, you know, among higher ed institutions, you know, in climate and
sustainability.
Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. And I think that would be it for
today. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for accepting the invitation.
(41:43):
And I'm sure our listeners get more insight into how sustainability works at Penn and
maybe also some advice what they can do with their career or with their daily life. I mean,
personally, I also got to know some more things that are happening at Penn and not just seeing
the banners and just going. So that's all for today's episode of Talking Environment.
(42:07):
Thank you so much to Noah Swistock for joining us. So it was me, your host, Kevor Gazarian.
And be sure to connect to us next time for more insights and conversations. And thank
you for listening and have a great day.
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