May 8, 2025 • 29 mins
The passing of Pope Francis on April 21, 2023 set in motion ancient protocols refined over two millennia of Catholic Church history. For the 1.4 billion Catholics worldwide—including approximately 40% of Texans—this moment represents a pivotal transition guided by traditions few outside the faith fully understand. Religion is an important part of culture and history for many Texans, yet often overlooked by historians.
We're joined by Benedict Nguyen, a canon lawyer and Associate Vice President at St. Thomas University in Houston, who expertly guides us through the intricate process of papal succession.
Whether you're Catholic, belong to another faith tradition, or simply appreciate the historical significance of religious institutions, this episode offers valuable insights into the governance structures that have profoundly shaped Western civilization and continue to influence our cultural landscape today.
For more information, see Papal Death & Conclave Presented by Benedict Nguyen on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/live/xvKdoO867W0?si=RCvS_kwycUi--LhS
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosby and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
I'm Gene Preuss, I'm ScottSonsby.
Scott, I wanted to let you knowI mean I know you already know
right the news right now.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Let me know that sounds ominous.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It is because the Catholic Church is without a
pope and Francis died April 21st.
Normally we don't record thistimely an interview.
Uh, I think this is the mosttimely interview we've done.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Oh by far, because you know us.
We've commented many times youand I are about the most
untimely people there's everbeen.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
In fact, gene preuss is well known for not even being
on time for anything, so my, mywife just informed me that,
that she used to be on timeuntil she met me and then the
past 26 years she's not been ontime.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I have known you those same number of years and I
agree with you, I'm alwaysthere at the right time.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I wanted to talk about this.
You know, in the world there's1.4 billion Catholics.
In Texas Catholics make upabout 40% of the population.
It's a tremendous figure.
And you know, religion is notsomething we as historians talk
about that frequently.
(02:01):
You and I are politicalhistorians.
We study politics.
Now we get into some social,into some other types of history
.
But you know, religion is kindof like the 600-pound elephant
sitting in the room.
We've been talking about it, itcomes up in American history at
various times, but we don't dovery well in Texas history
(02:23):
talking about it.
And you think Carlos Castanedawrote seven volumes in our
Catholic heritage back in the40s, 30s and 40s.
So let's talk a little bitabout the Catholic Church and
today being without a pope.
We have two Texas bishops,cardinals really, in Rome right
(02:43):
now voting in the conclave,although one wasn't born in
Texas.
Well, neither one were born inTexas.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
No, yeah, I was going to say neither one were born in
Texas.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
And to help us, because you know, to be totally
honest and I'm sure all of ourfriends know this, we don't know
that much about this.
We've invited Ben Nguyen.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
We're ignorant in many many fields, Gene.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, not just this.
We've invited Ben Nguyen.
Ben is Associate Vice Presidentat St Thomas University here in
Houston.
He's also the Dean of Studentsand he is a canon lawyer.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
That means his intellectual plane is much
higher than you, and ours are byfar.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, he's on natural gas and we're running on.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
That's right.
We're still on like kerosene,and I'm looking forward to this
more than I think any podcastwe've had, because I don't
really know that much about it.
I'm learning about it thesedays.
I do know that.
What I know, you know, we'rehistorians on my conclave.
I'm assuming this conclave willnot turn out like the 1605
(03:51):
Second Conclave, where cardinalshad broken bones and fistfights
broke out over the appointmentof Paul V.
Right, that wouldn't happen,ben correct.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
They aren't always nice.
Let's introduce Ben.
Ben welcome to Talking TexasHistory.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Hey Gene, hey Scott, Thank you very much for having
me on.
It's a pleasure to be with you.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Well, we're glad you're here Now.
I'm the one that's moreignorant about this than
anything, so let me just startoff.
Canon Lawyer.
Now, that is an interestingtitle, so why don't you tell our
audience what is a Canon Lawyer?
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that there are
guys like me out there theCatholic Church being not only
just a religious institution buta social institution as well.
We exist in time, we exist as avisible body in existence for
2,000 years and in that societyhow we get along with each other
needs to be regulated.
(04:44):
So the legal system that poppedup from you know, coming from
Jewish law, coming from evenancient Roman law, all these
things came together.
The church, once it became kindof more of a visible society,
had to put down these norms andthese norms started to be called
canons.
And it started really withchurch councils way back,
council of Nicaea you can kindof see it at Acts 15, with the
(05:06):
Council of Jerusalem, where atthe end of a decision they would
put like certain regulatorythings at the end, and these
became known as kanon in Greek,meaning a rule or a measure by
which your actions can bemeasured.
So over the centuries thatdeveloped into what really now
is the longest continuing legalsystem in the Western world,
(05:29):
continuously functioning legalsystem in the Western world.
So that throughout the years,particularly in the Western
world, the church's canonicalsystem, the canon law, the legal
system, the Catholic Church hasbecome highly influential in
all kinds of systems, has becomehighly influential in all kinds
of systems.
Even our own American law washighly influenced by it, via the
(05:49):
law of England, via theNapoleonic codes, things like
that.
And so canon law is still afunctioning system.
We have just like any otherlegal system courts, we have
court tribunals, we have judges,we have lawyers like me who
specialize in it.
We have scholars in it.
It's its own science, it's itsown legal system, and so the
people who practice in it arecalled canon lawyers.
(06:11):
They have to get a pontifical,at least a licensure degree,
which is the church's law degree.
But you can go on and get adoctorate in it too if you want
to do some more scholarly workin it.
So I have a licensure from theCatholic University of America.
I also have my law degree youknow my doctorate's
jurisprudence, so I'm kind ofone of those that exists in both
worlds, both in the Americanlegal system and also in the
(06:33):
church's canonical system.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Found to be like one of the most interesting.
I mean that's got to be, that'san interesting career.
I think that that's got to befascinating.
I mean kind of put anintellectual world and then
getting into the church historyworld.
That just is fantastic on that.
So I think that's great.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, it's really a fun thing.
Of course, it plays out in verypractical ways too.
Most of my career has beenworking in dioceses, helping and
advising bishops.
Most of my career for the last,before I came here to the
University of St Thomas, wasworking in chancery offices and
I served in predominantly in therole of what's called the
chancellor at the diocese, whichis kind of like your chief
(07:15):
canonical legal counsel for thediocese Takes care of a lot of
documents and stuff.
I always tell priests they havethe ministry of presence, while
we canon lawyers have theministry of paper.
So we take care of all thepaperwork and everything so that
they don't have to.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So what kind of issues come up that have to
cross your desk, that you maybehave to sign off on or give
advice on to a head of a dioceseabout something like that would
involve canonical law?
Give us just an example, maybe.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah, the canonical law.
Just like in American civil law, it touches just about every
part of the life of the church.
So, just like in civil law andin civil society, what part does
American law cover?
Everything from crossing thestreet, how you drive, how you
get employed, how you receivebenefits.
Same way in the church.
So canon lawyers deal with justabout everything.
(08:04):
We deal with sacramental law.
We deal with property law.
We deal with personnel law.
We deal with theological issues.
We deal with clergyappointments and removals.
We deal with religious life andreligious institutions.
We deal with procedural law.
How do you bring a case forward?
How do you have a complaint?
How do you do some sort of anappeal?
(08:25):
All those things are in there.
People have rights, people haveduties and we're there to help
them through that.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I did not know until we had our former Archbishop,
daniel Cardinal DiNardo, aretired March I think 25th was
his last day and there was aturnover to a former auxiliary
who's also here from Texas, andthat's Joe.
(08:53):
Vasquez right who had been.
I remember him when he was apriest in San Angelo.
I didn't know this.
All property in the Archdioceseis under the individual
archbishop's name and so whenthat transfer is over, there's a
bunch of paperwork intransferring that property over.
Can you explain some of that?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah, there's different models that different
dioceses do for how property isheld, and it goes back with a
fascinating history, back to the1800s, because of course you
had the United States.
That was predominantly aProtestant country, and so you
had a lot of religiousorganizations that were much
more congregational andlocalized.
But then all of a sudden youhave the Catholic Church and
(09:34):
other organizations such as theOrthodox Church who hold
property qua diocese as muchmore collective.
And so over the years thequestion has arisen well, how do
you do that?
How do you have that sort oflocal ownership of the property
while still having thatoversight from the hierarchical
ecclesiastical authority?
(09:54):
And so different places haddifferent models that came up.
One model that was rejectedpretty quickly was the
fee-simple model in which thebishop just simply owned all the
property himself.
Highly problematic, bishopwould die, you know, some
long-lost nephew would come andtry to claim the parish as his
property.
So bad, bad idea.
So they backed away from that alittle bit.
(10:14):
Two models then became verypredominant.
The first one that became very,very popular was really made
popular by Cardinal Mundelein,who was up in Chicago.
Mundelein came up with thisthing called the corporate soul
model.
The corporate soul model isthat all property is owned by
the bishop, but not the bishopas an individual, the bishop ex
(10:36):
officio in his capacity as thebishop, as a corporate soul.
So you have a corporation madeup of one person, and so via the
corporate soul model, then thatallowed that local flexibility
to get the local parishes canstill administer the property,
but then the bishop still hasthat oversight.
Over the years, though, thatbecame kind of frowned upon a
(10:57):
little bit, because liabilitywhen it attaches would attach to
the entire entity, and so someof the weekend lawyers and
others thought, well, maybethere'd be a better model.
New York, the diocese up in NewYork, came up with this model
that became known as the NewYork model, which is you would
have in a sense a bishop intrust, where the property would
be owned locally, but the localcorporation of St Such-and-Such
(11:21):
Parish would be comprised offive people.
You would have the bishop, youwould have the vicar general,
you would have the pastor andthen two lay trustees, and so
there would be a local corporateboard for each parish, each
local property.
That was a way of kind ofbalancing out local ownership
with oversight and control,hierarchically as well.
(11:41):
So a lot of dioceses,particularly with the abuse
scandals and things like that,started to switch over to this
New York model, this parishcorporation model, as they call
it.
However, about half the diocesesin the United States still are
under the corporate soul model.
I was not sure whether Elks inHouston was under the corporate
soul model.
I was not sure whether YeltsinHouston was under the corporate
(12:02):
soul model.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Still, it sounds like it still is, but that's
something that I'm not aware ofyou know that brings up
something I'm thinking of overon the Protestant side and I
just wondered what you wouldthink about this.
You know the whole ownership ofproperty has come up quite in
the Episcopal Church as well asthe Methodist Church with their
divisions, and they're having tofigure that out.
I wonder, did they borrow fromCatholic canon law maybe to come
(12:27):
to some of the agreements theycame to during that?
Because I mean there wouldn'thave been anything like that
amongst many of those Protestantgroups.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, very much so.
As a matter of fact, a lot ofcourts looked over to the
Catholic models for someguidance on that.
You know, I have studied and Istudied at an Episcopalian
seminary One of my degrees isfrom there and it was
fascinating.
I was studying there during thetime where the Episcopal Church
was going through some majorsplits in North America, about
(12:55):
10 years ago or so ago or so,and it was fascinating to see
because in that mediationprocess that was going on,
because you kind of have, youknow, with Episcopalian church
you have kind of have alocalized community congregation
but you still have thishierarchical structure but it's
not as developed as would be in,say, the Orthodox church or
Catholic church, and so a lot ofmediations and court mediations
(13:16):
to get around the FirstAmendment issues would try to
come up and try to look at othermodels, such as these types of
parish corporation models, justto see how ownership can be done
and be treated fairly.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, that's extremely interesting.
Well, canon lawyers you get towork about like a secular
lawyers do quite a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
There's a lot of overlap, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, Another thing a pope will retire a bishop.
This happened recently, Tylernorth of me here in East Texas.
From time to time.
How does canon law allow thatto happen?
And I guess we could ask thequestion does that ever happen
to the pope?
I guess he's not subject tosuch things like that, Right,
but what is the law on retiringa bishop?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yeah, the pope.
In the Western Church the popehas what's called universal
jurisdiction.
So, aside from the charism ofteaching, of preaching, of
liturgy and things like that,the pope, because he is the
successor of St Peter, thesuccessor of the Bishop of Rome,
he is understood to haveauniversal jurisdiction, which
means in administrative mattershe has the totality of the
(14:27):
decision-making on there.
Through the years, however, howbishops are chosen has become
varied.
You know, you look at Scripture.
There's really not a set way.
It's really funny because inthe Acts of the Apostles, right
at the beginning, there in thefirst chapter, they chose the
(14:48):
first bishop to replace Judas bycasting lots.
So it's basically let's see howwe want to design this.
So through the years you hadcertain things certain places
had like a right of nomination.
That was kind of one of the bigquestions, one of the big
debates with the recent dealwith China, whether or not the
government over there could havesome sort of a bigger say in
(15:08):
the nomination and acceptance ofbishops.
You've had that in certainplaces.
The predominant current waythat it's done is that the Pope
would do his investigation viawhat's called the Dicastery for
Bishops.
Pope would do his investigationvia what's called the Dicastery
for Bishops.
Dicastery for Bishops kind oftake the names through the
nuncio of the Vatican to thecountry.
He would gather the dossiers,the names and things like that,
(15:30):
send it over to the Dicasteryfor Bishops.
Their job is to try to do theirresearch and then present three
names to the pope, and then thepope can decide.
He can choose this guy or thatguy, or he can kick it back and
say, no, let's try again, I'dlike three more slaves, or
something like that.
Then he appoints them.
So that's how bishops arechosen currently.
Can that change?
(15:51):
Sure, a lot of people haveasked whether or not that model
works anymore, whether that's agood model, for right now that's
what we have.
Because he's able to appointbishops, he also has the right
to remove them, and so removalof bishops is something that the
Pope can ultimately do.
Outside of that, though,there's a lot of local hands-off
(16:12):
, if you will.
That's one of the things thatthe Second Vatican Council
really brought to the forefront.
Was that well, to be thesuccessor to the forefront?
Was that well, you know, to bethe successor to the apostle?
Yes, the Pope is the successorto Peter, but the bishops are
the successors to the apostles.
So there's this collegialitythat is at work there, and while
the Pope is the first amongequals, he is the first among
(16:33):
equals, and so the SecondVatican Council said we need to
move away from a model that isseen more as the bishop being
kind of the field agent of thepope.
The bishop really is thepresence of the apostles in that
diocese, and so a lot ofchanges in canon law happened
that allowed that there'scertain permissions that bishops
don't need to get anymore fromthe Vatican in order to function
(16:55):
in their diocese.
At the end of the day, however,the appointment and removal is
still reserved to Romans II andto the papacy.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And it's absolutely.
It's so complex I grew up aBaptist.
We're not that complex.
We just start another church ifwe want to do something.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
We just start another religious order when we don't
get along but Baptists canremove, they can unordain their
local pastor.
Yeah, in congregationalchurches it's more dependent on
the councils, how the councilsare and how it's individually
set up.
It's basically you know wheredo you put the decision-making
power.
(17:35):
Usually in hierarchicalchurches like the Catholic
Church, a little bit higher up,more higher up and usually more
congregational churches.
It's more localized.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I mentioned earlier.
You know, april 21st, popeFrancis passed away kind of, you
know I don't want to saysuddenly, but it was kind of
unexpected.
Everybody thought he wasgetting better, he was
recuperating, and then, you know, he has that aneurysm and dies.
So what happens when a popedies?
(18:04):
What goes on immediately insidethe vatican or and at the at
his residence?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
yeah, there was a jewish historian journalist who
did a work on the vatican, didsome researches back maybe in
the 60s or 70s, uh, and he madethe observation that most men
die in obscurity but the pope,uh, die in ceremonies, uh, and
that was his way of observingthat.
You know, when there's a papaldeath and a transition, there's
(18:35):
a lot of things that kick in allof a sudden.
Now the reason for that is thatyou know, the Church has done
this for a while 2,000 years,266 popes.
Now we're about to elect the267th guy now.
So we've been there a few timesand it's been pretty messy in
some of those times.
And so over the centuries, thechurch started to say, hey,
(18:55):
let's use our ceremonialprotocols and things like that
to try to ensure as much aspossible a seamless and a
transition where you don't havea lot of people who are going to
be pushing and pulling, becausewe all know, in an interregnum,
in a period where we're inbetween leaders, the natives can
get pretty restless and peoplecan push and pull.
(19:17):
There are a lot of questions onwho has authority to do what
and a lot of things could bevery detrimental.
And so the church says, hey,let's try to calm that down as
much as possible.
So everything from you knowwhat do we do ceremonially once
the Pope dies who confirms it,who's able to announce it, who
has the position, who has theresponsibility of telling this
person and that person?
(19:38):
That's all regularized down tothe tea.
So it's really, really strictand it's really precise, because
we don't want people takingadvantage of the situation when
the Pope dies, a guy named theCamerlengo of the church.
A Camerlengo is just anotherword for the Chamberlain.
The Chamberlain is the cardinalthat the Pope has designated
(19:59):
and he's among the college ofcardinals there who has certain
roles that he has to fulfillright when the death happens.
He's the one that has tocertify the death, for example,
because we want to know for surethat the guy has passed.
In ages past we've had differenttypes of tests that we do now
with the medical examination.
Once that's called, it's notofficial until the Camerlengo
(20:20):
says yes, the Pope, you knowPapa Mortuus S, the Pope is dead
.
That then kicks off theofficial procedure.
The apartments are sealed sothat nobody can get in there in
this period because we don'twant people kind of rummaging
through the pope's things andfiles and things like that
that's sealed until the new popecomes, nobody's allowed in or
(20:40):
out.
Then it kicks off theceremonies for the papal death,
which within four days or sofour to six days you have to
have the funeral.
And the reason it has to bevery quick is because it's
forbidden for the Pope to havean autopsy and there's no
embalming either, and so theyput kind of like a cream to slow
(21:00):
down the decaying process asmuch as possible.
But the clock is ticking and sohe's laying in state so people
can come and pay their respects,but within four days or so, and
that's exactly what we saw withPope Francis.
The Saturday following was thefuneral.
That then picks off a nine-dayperiod of mourning called the
Novum Dialis, which comes fromtwo Latin words Novum, nine dies
(21:25):
, days, the nine days.
So it's a required nine dayswhere on every single day there
would be a mass.
There-s days, the nine days soit's a required nine days where
on every single day there wouldbe a mass, there would be a
reflection for the cardinals whoare gathering.
It serves two or threedifferent purposes.
One, to give us some space andtime to kind of make that
transition.
We don't want to start theconflict just yet.
We want to bury the guy.
We want to make sure that wehave that mental and spiritual
(21:46):
transition.
Two, though it allows thecardinals time to get to Rome,
because they're kind ofscattered all over in the world,
you know.
Nine days allows them time tostart traveling to Rome to make
preparations.
The third thing is that itstarts to allow the cardinals to
have that reflection OK, nowthat the pope is dead, you know,
what do we need?
What kind of a leader do weneed?
What's the direction of thechurch?
(22:08):
So, after nine days, then, andat the very least the very
earliest 15 days after the deathof the pope, at the very
longest 20 days after the deathof the pope, the conclave starts
.
And that's when again, verystrict, very ceremonial where
the cardinals then come, andthat's what we saw just the
other day here on Wednesday.
(22:29):
So that's what yesterday wasthe start of that conflict.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Is the role of the Cardinal.
I mean, you know these guyswearing the red, you know which
is you were saying in a video.
I'm going to post the link tothat video in the description
below because I think it's realgood.
So in 1875, we had our firstCardinal in the United States,
john McCluskey, and three yearslater Pius IX, pio Nono, dies.
(23:01):
Mccluskey can't get to Rome intime, so can't participate.
Muskie can't get to Rome intime, so can't participate.
So he goes up and talks to thenew pope.
Well, I don't know about him,but another pope goes and talks
to the new pope, gets itextended to 20 days 15 to 20
(23:22):
days afterwards so that peoplewho were having a hard time
traveling could get there ontime.
We don't realize that intoday's world that it took a
long time to get there.
But is that their mainresponsibility is to choose the
next leader?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Yeah, as a matter of fact, the highest position in
the Catholic Church is thebishop.
The pope is the bishop of Rome.
Cardinals are bishops.
They are bishops who are giventhe designation of cardinal
because their main focus is theelection of the next pope.
Now they're also advisors tothe pope.
They also serve in curio oroffice positions.
(24:03):
You know different types ofcouncils that he would put them
on, different types ofnunciature, those types of
things, but their predominantduty is to provide for the
election of the next cardinals.
They wear red because the notionof being a cardinal is that you
would shed your blood for thefaith, and hence the red.
The red color is not justceremonial, it's not just to be
(24:25):
flashy, but it's to remind themand us that these are people who
are willing to stand up, bewitnesses for the faith and die
for the faith.
It comes correctly too.
I had mentioned before inanother presentation that's why
the popes tended to wear redshoes.
Also, I know there was a bigcontroversy on Benedict wearing
(24:46):
red shoes.
That's too flashy and thingslike that Francis didn't wear.
It's not a requirement that thepopes wear red shoes, but the
red shoes that the popes didwear was what was kind of
reminiscent of that as well,that the pope needs to be
willing to stand in a pool ofhis own blood in witness of the
faith.
You know, otherwise it'd bekind of a silly fashion
statement where you have a whitecassock and red shoes.
(25:07):
You know, otherwise it'd bekind of a silly fashion
statement where you have a whitecassock and red shoes.
It just doesn't quite go.
But that's the idea, that kindof the theological message
behind it is that martyrdom,that witness, that giving
yourself up for the faith.
Cardinals are appointed anddesignated by the pope.
He gets to designate as many ashe wants and whoever he wants.
Who then would have the rightof voting?
They get to vote up untilthey're 80 years old, and it's
(25:38):
very precise they have to beunder 80 by the day before the
Pope dies.
So Pope Francis died on what?
Was it April 20th or 21st orsomething like that?
You take the day before that,count all the cardinals who are
under 80 at that time.
They're the ones who have theright to come.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
And vote Is who's going to be the Carmelingo
decided before the pope passes.
They know who that's going tobe.
Is that already a position oris that appointed when it
happens?
Speaker 3 (26:01):
That's appointed well beforehand as a matter of fact,
and usually the pope gets thedecision on who to appoint that.
But there's a certain positionamong what's called the College
of Cardinals, which is thecardinals as a body, but that's
determined well beforehand sothat you know exactly who it is.
We want the procedure of theset of a conte, the empty seat,
the interregnum, that transitoryperiod, to be as smooth as
(26:23):
possible.
That's not the time where thechurch wants more people being
appointed here and there becauseof the lobbying, because of the
pushing and pulling, thepoliticking, things like that.
So the Carmelingo and all theseother positions are decided
well beforehand.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
And besides, of course, being the presider over
the conclave and such like this,what other duties does the
Carmelingo have after thepassing of the pope?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah, the Carmelingo has a very practical function.
He's the one that has tooversee the administration of
the finances of the Vaticanduring the period.
So in other words, that's justa fancy way of saying he just
makes sure that the bills getpaid and that paychecks are
issued and things are signed offon.
There's a Latin phrase thatguides these periods.
(27:09):
In between, we, canada, saysedificante nihil innovator.
When the seat is empty, nothingnew is to be innovated.
So the idea is that you can'tdo anything that is a new
initiative.
You can't do anything thatprejudices the rights, in other
words, binds the rights andbinds the hands of the person
(27:29):
coming after you.
You just have to hold the line,make sure the lights get turned
off and on, people get paid,things like that.
So the camera lingo is the mainperson who has to oversee those
day-to-day operations during aset of a content.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Hasn't there been some issue with the finances?
I know there's been somethingcome up during this time period
a little bit.
Did I remember that right?
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Vatican finances have always been an issue, and for
decades now it's been an issue,and the last three popes have
done a lot in order to try toreform the system with the
Vatican Bank, the Institute forthe Work of Charity and things
like that.
Francis himself did some majorreforms structure-wise on how
that's done, and so they'reworking through that and the
(28:15):
Vatican again is running adeficit.
That's not surprising.
So, yeah, the finances can be alittle bit of a mess over there
.
De Carmelengo, at this pointthat's really in a sense, not
his problem.
Those are kind of thosestructural reforms that he's not
allowed to look at.
He just needs to make sure thatthe day-to-day continues and
that we get through this period,and so then the new pope can
(28:36):
make those decisions.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I saw something else on the East East team coming up.
Because it's so fascinating andjust so you know we're going to
carry this over.
This is probably going to betwo episodes.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Sure, no problem, don't worry about.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Gene's clock.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Well, okay, Scott, I guess this is as good a time as
any.
We'll go ahead and pause rightnow, and thank you all for
listening so much.
We've been talking withAssociate Vice President and
Dean of Students at St ThomasUniversity, Benedict Wynne, on
the processes of canon law thatkick into effect when a pope
(29:08):
passes away and there's atransition to a new pope and, as
you know, we record these.
And while we were finishing upepisode one here, we got the
word that the white smoke wascoming out of St Peter's
Basilica, which means a new popewas elected.
So we're going to have a newpope and we'll be talking more
(29:29):
about that in the nextdiscussion.
Join us again next time here onTalking Texas History.
Thanks everybody, See you soon.
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosby and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
I'm Gene Preuss, I'm ScottSonsby.
Scott, I wanted to let you knowI mean I know you already know
right the news right now.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Let me know that sounds ominous.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It is because the Catholic Church is without a
pope and Francis died April 21st.
Normally we don't record thistimely an interview.
Uh, I think this is the mosttimely interview we've done.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Oh by far, because you know us.
We've commented many times youand I are about the most
untimely people there's everbeen.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
In fact, gene preuss is well known for not even being
on time for anything, so my, mywife just informed me that,
that she used to be on timeuntil she met me and then the
past 26 years she's not been ontime.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I have known you those same number of years and I
agree with you, I'm alwaysthere at the right time.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I wanted to talk about this.
You know, in the world there's1.4 billion Catholics.
In Texas Catholics make upabout 40% of the population.
It's a tremendous figure.
And you know, religion is notsomething we as historians talk
about that frequently.
(02:01):
You and I are politicalhistorians.
We study politics.
Now we get into some social,into some other types of history
.
But you know, religion is kindof like the 600-pound elephant
sitting in the room.
We've been talking about it, itcomes up in American history at
various times, but we don't dovery well in Texas history
(02:23):
talking about it.
And you think Carlos Castanedawrote seven volumes in our
Catholic heritage back in the40s, 30s and 40s.
So let's talk a little bitabout the Catholic Church and
today being without a pope.
We have two Texas bishops,cardinals really, in Rome right
(02:43):
now voting in the conclave,although one wasn't born in
Texas.
Well, neither one were born inTexas.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
No, yeah, I was going to say neither one were born in
Texas.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
And to help us, because you know, to be totally
honest and I'm sure all of ourfriends know this, we don't know
that much about this.
We've invited Ben Nguyen.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
We're ignorant in many many fields, Gene.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, not just this.
We've invited Ben Nguyen.
Ben is Associate Vice Presidentat St Thomas University here in
Houston.
He's also the Dean of Studentsand he is a canon lawyer.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
That means his intellectual plane is much
higher than you, and ours are byfar.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, he's on natural gas and we're running on.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
That's right.
We're still on like kerosene,and I'm looking forward to this
more than I think any podcastwe've had, because I don't
really know that much about it.
I'm learning about it thesedays.
I do know that.
What I know, you know, we'rehistorians on my conclave.
I'm assuming this conclave willnot turn out like the 1605
(03:51):
Second Conclave, where cardinalshad broken bones and fistfights
broke out over the appointmentof Paul V.
Right, that wouldn't happen,ben correct.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
They aren't always nice.
Let's introduce Ben.
Ben welcome to Talking TexasHistory.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Hey Gene, hey Scott, Thank you very much for having
me on.
It's a pleasure to be with you.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Well, we're glad you're here Now.
I'm the one that's moreignorant about this than
anything, so let me just startoff.
Canon Lawyer.
Now, that is an interestingtitle, so why don't you tell our
audience what is a Canon Lawyer?
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that there are
guys like me out there theCatholic Church being not only
just a religious institution buta social institution as well.
We exist in time, we exist as avisible body in existence for
2,000 years and in that societyhow we get along with each other
needs to be regulated.
(04:44):
So the legal system that poppedup from you know, coming from
Jewish law, coming from evenancient Roman law, all these
things came together.
The church, once it became kindof more of a visible society,
had to put down these norms andthese norms started to be called
canons.
And it started really withchurch councils way back,
council of Nicaea you can kindof see it at Acts 15, with the
(05:06):
Council of Jerusalem, where atthe end of a decision they would
put like certain regulatorythings at the end, and these
became known as kanon in Greek,meaning a rule or a measure by
which your actions can bemeasured.
So over the centuries thatdeveloped into what really now
is the longest continuing legalsystem in the Western world,
(05:29):
continuously functioning legalsystem in the Western world.
So that throughout the years,particularly in the Western
world, the church's canonicalsystem, the canon law, the legal
system, the Catholic Church hasbecome highly influential in
all kinds of systems, has becomehighly influential in all kinds
of systems.
Even our own American law washighly influenced by it, via the
(05:49):
law of England, via theNapoleonic codes, things like
that.
And so canon law is still afunctioning system.
We have just like any otherlegal system courts, we have
court tribunals, we have judges,we have lawyers like me who
specialize in it.
We have scholars in it.
It's its own science, it's itsown legal system, and so the
people who practice in it arecalled canon lawyers.
(06:11):
They have to get a pontifical,at least a licensure degree,
which is the church's law degree.
But you can go on and get adoctorate in it too if you want
to do some more scholarly workin it.
So I have a licensure from theCatholic University of America.
I also have my law degree youknow my doctorate's
jurisprudence, so I'm kind ofone of those that exists in both
worlds, both in the Americanlegal system and also in the
(06:33):
church's canonical system.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Found to be like one of the most interesting.
I mean that's got to be, that'san interesting career.
I think that that's got to befascinating.
I mean kind of put anintellectual world and then
getting into the church historyworld.
That just is fantastic on that.
So I think that's great.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, it's really a fun thing.
Of course, it plays out in verypractical ways too.
Most of my career has beenworking in dioceses, helping and
advising bishops.
Most of my career for the last,before I came here to the
University of St Thomas, wasworking in chancery offices and
I served in predominantly in therole of what's called the
chancellor at the diocese, whichis kind of like your chief
(07:15):
canonical legal counsel for thediocese Takes care of a lot of
documents and stuff.
I always tell priests they havethe ministry of presence, while
we canon lawyers have theministry of paper.
So we take care of all thepaperwork and everything so that
they don't have to.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So what kind of issues come up that have to
cross your desk, that you maybehave to sign off on or give
advice on to a head of a dioceseabout something like that would
involve canonical law?
Give us just an example, maybe.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah, the canonical law.
Just like in American civil law, it touches just about every
part of the life of the church.
So, just like in civil law andin civil society, what part does
American law cover?
Everything from crossing thestreet, how you drive, how you
get employed, how you receivebenefits.
Same way in the church.
So canon lawyers deal with justabout everything.
(08:04):
We deal with sacramental law.
We deal with property law.
We deal with personnel law.
We deal with theological issues.
We deal with clergyappointments and removals.
We deal with religious life andreligious institutions.
We deal with procedural law.
How do you bring a case forward?
How do you have a complaint?
How do you do some sort of anappeal?
(08:25):
All those things are in there.
People have rights, people haveduties and we're there to help
them through that.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I did not know until we had our former Archbishop,
daniel Cardinal DiNardo, aretired March I think 25th was
his last day and there was aturnover to a former auxiliary
who's also here from Texas, andthat's Joe.
(08:53):
Vasquez right who had been.
I remember him when he was apriest in San Angelo.
I didn't know this.
All property in the Archdioceseis under the individual
archbishop's name and so whenthat transfer is over, there's a
bunch of paperwork intransferring that property over.
Can you explain some of that?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah, there's different models that different
dioceses do for how property isheld, and it goes back with a
fascinating history, back to the1800s, because of course you
had the United States.
That was predominantly aProtestant country, and so you
had a lot of religiousorganizations that were much
more congregational andlocalized.
But then all of a sudden youhave the Catholic Church and
(09:34):
other organizations such as theOrthodox Church who hold
property qua diocese as muchmore collective.
And so over the years thequestion has arisen well, how do
you do that?
How do you have that sort oflocal ownership of the property
while still having thatoversight from the hierarchical
ecclesiastical authority?
(09:54):
And so different places haddifferent models that came up.
One model that was rejectedpretty quickly was the
fee-simple model in which thebishop just simply owned all the
property himself.
Highly problematic, bishopwould die, you know, some
long-lost nephew would come andtry to claim the parish as his
property.
So bad, bad idea.
So they backed away from that alittle bit.
(10:14):
Two models then became verypredominant.
The first one that became very,very popular was really made
popular by Cardinal Mundelein,who was up in Chicago.
Mundelein came up with thisthing called the corporate soul
model.
The corporate soul model isthat all property is owned by
the bishop, but not the bishopas an individual, the bishop ex
(10:36):
officio in his capacity as thebishop, as a corporate soul.
So you have a corporation madeup of one person, and so via the
corporate soul model, then thatallowed that local flexibility
to get the local parishes canstill administer the property,
but then the bishop still hasthat oversight.
Over the years, though, thatbecame kind of frowned upon a
(10:57):
little bit, because liabilitywhen it attaches would attach to
the entire entity, and so someof the weekend lawyers and
others thought, well, maybethere'd be a better model.
New York, the diocese up in NewYork, came up with this model
that became known as the NewYork model, which is you would
have in a sense a bishop intrust, where the property would
be owned locally, but the localcorporation of St Such-and-Such
(11:21):
Parish would be comprised offive people.
You would have the bishop, youwould have the vicar general,
you would have the pastor andthen two lay trustees, and so
there would be a local corporateboard for each parish, each
local property.
That was a way of kind ofbalancing out local ownership
with oversight and control,hierarchically as well.
(11:41):
So a lot of dioceses,particularly with the abuse
scandals and things like that,started to switch over to this
New York model, this parishcorporation model, as they call
it.
However, about half the diocesesin the United States still are
under the corporate soul model.
I was not sure whether Elks inHouston was under the corporate
soul model.
I was not sure whether YeltsinHouston was under the corporate
(12:02):
soul model.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Still, it sounds like it still is, but that's
something that I'm not aware ofyou know that brings up
something I'm thinking of overon the Protestant side and I
just wondered what you wouldthink about this.
You know the whole ownership ofproperty has come up quite in
the Episcopal Church as well asthe Methodist Church with their
divisions, and they're having tofigure that out.
I wonder, did they borrow fromCatholic canon law maybe to come
(12:27):
to some of the agreements theycame to during that?
Because I mean there wouldn'thave been anything like that
amongst many of those Protestantgroups.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, very much so.
As a matter of fact, a lot ofcourts looked over to the
Catholic models for someguidance on that.
You know, I have studied and Istudied at an Episcopalian
seminary One of my degrees isfrom there and it was
fascinating.
I was studying there during thetime where the Episcopal Church
was going through some majorsplits in North America, about
(12:55):
10 years ago or so ago or so,and it was fascinating to see
because in that mediationprocess that was going on,
because you kind of have, youknow, with Episcopalian church
you have kind of have alocalized community congregation
but you still have thishierarchical structure but it's
not as developed as would be in,say, the Orthodox church or
Catholic church, and so a lot ofmediations and court mediations
(13:16):
to get around the FirstAmendment issues would try to
come up and try to look at othermodels, such as these types of
parish corporation models, justto see how ownership can be done
and be treated fairly.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, that's extremely interesting.
Well, canon lawyers you get towork about like a secular
lawyers do quite a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
There's a lot of overlap, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, Another thing a pope will retire a bishop.
This happened recently, Tylernorth of me here in East Texas.
From time to time.
How does canon law allow thatto happen?
And I guess we could ask thequestion does that ever happen
to the pope?
I guess he's not subject tosuch things like that, Right,
but what is the law on retiringa bishop?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yeah, the pope.
In the Western Church the popehas what's called universal
jurisdiction.
So, aside from the charism ofteaching, of preaching, of
liturgy and things like that,the pope, because he is the
successor of St Peter, thesuccessor of the Bishop of Rome,
he is understood to haveauniversal jurisdiction, which
means in administrative mattershe has the totality of the
(14:27):
decision-making on there.
Through the years, however, howbishops are chosen has become
varied.
You know, you look at Scripture.
There's really not a set way.
It's really funny because inthe Acts of the Apostles, right
at the beginning, there in thefirst chapter, they chose the
(14:48):
first bishop to replace Judas bycasting lots.
So it's basically let's see howwe want to design this.
So through the years you hadcertain things certain places
had like a right of nomination.
That was kind of one of the bigquestions, one of the big
debates with the recent dealwith China, whether or not the
government over there could havesome sort of a bigger say in
(15:08):
the nomination and acceptance ofbishops.
You've had that in certainplaces.
The predominant current waythat it's done is that the Pope
would do his investigation viawhat's called the Dicastery for
Bishops.
Pope would do his investigationvia what's called the Dicastery
for Bishops.
Dicastery for Bishops kind oftake the names through the
nuncio of the Vatican to thecountry.
He would gather the dossiers,the names and things like that,
(15:30):
send it over to the Dicasteryfor Bishops.
Their job is to try to do theirresearch and then present three
names to the pope, and then thepope can decide.
He can choose this guy or thatguy, or he can kick it back and
say, no, let's try again, I'dlike three more slaves, or
something like that.
Then he appoints them.
So that's how bishops arechosen currently.
Can that change?
(15:51):
Sure, a lot of people haveasked whether or not that model
works anymore, whether that's agood model, for right now that's
what we have.
Because he's able to appointbishops, he also has the right
to remove them, and so removalof bishops is something that the
Pope can ultimately do.
Outside of that, though,there's a lot of local hands-off
(16:12):
, if you will.
That's one of the things thatthe Second Vatican Council
really brought to the forefront.
Was that well, to be thesuccessor to the forefront?
Was that well, you know, to bethe successor to the apostle?
Yes, the Pope is the successorto Peter, but the bishops are
the successors to the apostles.
So there's this collegialitythat is at work there, and while
the Pope is the first amongequals, he is the first among
(16:33):
equals, and so the SecondVatican Council said we need to
move away from a model that isseen more as the bishop being
kind of the field agent of thepope.
The bishop really is thepresence of the apostles in that
diocese, and so a lot ofchanges in canon law happened
that allowed that there'scertain permissions that bishops
don't need to get anymore fromthe Vatican in order to function
(16:55):
in their diocese.
At the end of the day, however,the appointment and removal is
still reserved to Romans II andto the papacy.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And it's absolutely.
It's so complex I grew up aBaptist.
We're not that complex.
We just start another church ifwe want to do something.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
We just start another religious order when we don't
get along but Baptists canremove, they can unordain their
local pastor.
Yeah, in congregationalchurches it's more dependent on
the councils, how the councilsare and how it's individually
set up.
It's basically you know wheredo you put the decision-making
power.
(17:35):
Usually in hierarchicalchurches like the Catholic
Church, a little bit higher up,more higher up and usually more
congregational churches.
It's more localized.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I mentioned earlier.
You know, april 21st, popeFrancis passed away kind of, you
know I don't want to saysuddenly, but it was kind of
unexpected.
Everybody thought he wasgetting better, he was
recuperating, and then, you know, he has that aneurysm and dies.
So what happens when a popedies?
(18:04):
What goes on immediately insidethe vatican or and at the at
his residence?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
yeah, there was a jewish historian journalist who
did a work on the vatican, didsome researches back maybe in
the 60s or 70s, uh, and he madethe observation that most men
die in obscurity but the pope,uh, die in ceremonies, uh, and
that was his way of observingthat.
You know, when there's a papaldeath and a transition, there's
(18:35):
a lot of things that kick in allof a sudden.
Now the reason for that is thatyou know, the Church has done
this for a while 2,000 years,266 popes.
Now we're about to elect the267th guy now.
So we've been there a few timesand it's been pretty messy in
some of those times.
And so over the centuries, thechurch started to say, hey,
(18:55):
let's use our ceremonialprotocols and things like that
to try to ensure as much aspossible a seamless and a
transition where you don't havea lot of people who are going to
be pushing and pulling, becausewe all know, in an interregnum,
in a period where we're inbetween leaders, the natives can
get pretty restless and peoplecan push and pull.
(19:17):
There are a lot of questions onwho has authority to do what
and a lot of things could bevery detrimental.
And so the church says, hey,let's try to calm that down as
much as possible.
So everything from you knowwhat do we do ceremonially once
the Pope dies who confirms it,who's able to announce it, who
has the position, who has theresponsibility of telling this
person and that person?
(19:38):
That's all regularized down tothe tea.
So it's really, really strictand it's really precise, because
we don't want people takingadvantage of the situation when
the Pope dies, a guy named theCamerlengo of the church.
A Camerlengo is just anotherword for the Chamberlain.
The Chamberlain is the cardinalthat the Pope has designated
(19:59):
and he's among the college ofcardinals there who has certain
roles that he has to fulfillright when the death happens.
He's the one that has tocertify the death, for example,
because we want to know for surethat the guy has passed.
In ages past we've had differenttypes of tests that we do now
with the medical examination.
Once that's called, it's notofficial until the Camerlengo
(20:20):
says yes, the Pope, you knowPapa Mortuus S, the Pope is dead
.
That then kicks off theofficial procedure.
The apartments are sealed sothat nobody can get in there in
this period because we don'twant people kind of rummaging
through the pope's things andfiles and things like that
that's sealed until the new popecomes, nobody's allowed in or
(20:40):
out.
Then it kicks off theceremonies for the papal death,
which within four days or sofour to six days you have to
have the funeral.
And the reason it has to bevery quick is because it's
forbidden for the Pope to havean autopsy and there's no
embalming either, and so theyput kind of like a cream to slow
(21:00):
down the decaying process asmuch as possible.
But the clock is ticking and sohe's laying in state so people
can come and pay their respects,but within four days or so, and
that's exactly what we saw withPope Francis.
The Saturday following was thefuneral.
That then picks off a nine-dayperiod of mourning called the
Novum Dialis, which comes fromtwo Latin words Novum, nine dies
(21:25):
, days, the nine days.
So it's a required nine dayswhere on every single day there
would be a mass.
There-s days, the nine days soit's a required nine days where
on every single day there wouldbe a mass, there would be a
reflection for the cardinals whoare gathering.
It serves two or threedifferent purposes.
One, to give us some space andtime to kind of make that
transition.
We don't want to start theconflict just yet.
We want to bury the guy.
We want to make sure that wehave that mental and spiritual
(21:46):
transition.
Two, though it allows thecardinals time to get to Rome,
because they're kind ofscattered all over in the world,
you know.
Nine days allows them time tostart traveling to Rome to make
preparations.
The third thing is that itstarts to allow the cardinals to
have that reflection OK, nowthat the pope is dead, you know,
what do we need?
What kind of a leader do weneed?
What's the direction of thechurch?
(22:08):
So, after nine days, then, andat the very least the very
earliest 15 days after the deathof the pope, at the very
longest 20 days after the deathof the pope, the conclave starts
.
And that's when again, verystrict, very ceremonial where
the cardinals then come, andthat's what we saw just the
other day here on Wednesday.
(22:29):
So that's what yesterday wasthe start of that conflict.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Is the role of the Cardinal.
I mean, you know these guyswearing the red, you know which
is you were saying in a video.
I'm going to post the link tothat video in the description
below because I think it's realgood.
So in 1875, we had our firstCardinal in the United States,
john McCluskey, and three yearslater Pius IX, pio Nono, dies.
(23:01):
Mccluskey can't get to Rome intime, so can't participate.
Muskie can't get to Rome intime, so can't participate.
So he goes up and talks to thenew pope.
Well, I don't know about him,but another pope goes and talks
to the new pope, gets itextended to 20 days 15 to 20
(23:22):
days afterwards so that peoplewho were having a hard time
traveling could get there ontime.
We don't realize that intoday's world that it took a
long time to get there.
But is that their mainresponsibility is to choose the
next leader?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Yeah, as a matter of fact, the highest position in
the Catholic Church is thebishop.
The pope is the bishop of Rome.
Cardinals are bishops.
They are bishops who are giventhe designation of cardinal
because their main focus is theelection of the next pope.
Now they're also advisors tothe pope.
They also serve in curio oroffice positions.
(24:03):
You know different types ofcouncils that he would put them
on, different types ofnunciature, those types of
things, but their predominantduty is to provide for the
election of the next cardinals.
They wear red because the notionof being a cardinal is that you
would shed your blood for thefaith, and hence the red.
The red color is not justceremonial, it's not just to be
(24:25):
flashy, but it's to remind themand us that these are people who
are willing to stand up, bewitnesses for the faith and die
for the faith.
It comes correctly too.
I had mentioned before inanother presentation that's why
the popes tended to wear redshoes.
Also, I know there was a bigcontroversy on Benedict wearing
(24:46):
red shoes.
That's too flashy and thingslike that Francis didn't wear.
It's not a requirement that thepopes wear red shoes, but the
red shoes that the popes didwear was what was kind of
reminiscent of that as well,that the pope needs to be
willing to stand in a pool ofhis own blood in witness of the
faith.
You know, otherwise it'd bekind of a silly fashion
statement where you have a whitecassock and red shoes.
(25:07):
You know, otherwise it'd bekind of a silly fashion
statement where you have a whitecassock and red shoes.
It just doesn't quite go.
But that's the idea, that kindof the theological message
behind it is that martyrdom,that witness, that giving
yourself up for the faith.
Cardinals are appointed anddesignated by the pope.
He gets to designate as many ashe wants and whoever he wants.
Who then would have the rightof voting?
They get to vote up untilthey're 80 years old, and it's
(25:38):
very precise they have to beunder 80 by the day before the
Pope dies.
So Pope Francis died on what?
Was it April 20th or 21st orsomething like that?
You take the day before that,count all the cardinals who are
under 80 at that time.
They're the ones who have theright to come.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
And vote Is who's going to be the Carmelingo
decided before the pope passes.
They know who that's going tobe.
Is that already a position oris that appointed when it
happens?
Speaker 3 (26:01):
That's appointed well beforehand as a matter of fact,
and usually the pope gets thedecision on who to appoint that.
But there's a certain positionamong what's called the College
of Cardinals, which is thecardinals as a body, but that's
determined well beforehand sothat you know exactly who it is.
We want the procedure of theset of a conte, the empty seat,
the interregnum, that transitoryperiod, to be as smooth as
(26:23):
possible.
That's not the time where thechurch wants more people being
appointed here and there becauseof the lobbying, because of the
pushing and pulling, thepoliticking, things like that.
So the Carmelingo and all theseother positions are decided
well beforehand.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
And besides, of course, being the presider over
the conclave and such like this,what other duties does the
Carmelingo have after thepassing of the pope?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah, the Carmelingo has a very practical function.
He's the one that has tooversee the administration of
the finances of the Vaticanduring the period.
So in other words, that's justa fancy way of saying he just
makes sure that the bills getpaid and that paychecks are
issued and things are signed offon.
There's a Latin phrase thatguides these periods.
(27:09):
In between, we, canada, saysedificante nihil innovator.
When the seat is empty, nothingnew is to be innovated.
So the idea is that you can'tdo anything that is a new
initiative.
You can't do anything thatprejudices the rights, in other
words, binds the rights andbinds the hands of the person
(27:29):
coming after you.
You just have to hold the line,make sure the lights get turned
off and on, people get paid,things like that.
So the camera lingo is the mainperson who has to oversee those
day-to-day operations during aset of a content.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Hasn't there been some issue with the finances?
I know there's been somethingcome up during this time period
a little bit.
Did I remember that right?
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Vatican finances have always been an issue, and for
decades now it's been an issue,and the last three popes have
done a lot in order to try toreform the system with the
Vatican Bank, the Institute forthe Work of Charity and things
like that.
Francis himself did some majorreforms structure-wise on how
that's done, and so they'reworking through that and the
(28:15):
Vatican again is running adeficit.
That's not surprising.
So, yeah, the finances can be alittle bit of a mess over there
.
De Carmelengo, at this pointthat's really in a sense, not
his problem.
Those are kind of thosestructural reforms that he's not
allowed to look at.
He just needs to make sure thatthe day-to-day continues and
that we get through this period,and so then the new pope can
(28:36):
make those decisions.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I saw something else on the East East team coming up.
Because it's so fascinating andjust so you know we're going to
carry this over.
This is probably going to betwo episodes.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Sure, no problem, don't worry about.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Gene's clock.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Well, okay, Scott, I guess this is as good a time as
any.
We'll go ahead and pause rightnow, and thank you all for
listening so much.
We've been talking withAssociate Vice President and
Dean of Students at St ThomasUniversity, Benedict Wynne, on
the processes of canon law thatkick into effect when a pope
(29:08):
passes away and there's atransition to a new pope and, as
you know, we record these.
And while we were finishing upepisode one here, we got the
word that the white smoke wascoming out of St Peter's
Basilica, which means a new popewas elected.
So we're going to have a newpope and we'll be talking more
(29:29):
about that in the nextdiscussion.
Join us again next time here onTalking Texas History.
Thanks everybody, See you soon.
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