May 21, 2025 • 31 mins
Ever wondered what really happens when Catholic cardinals gather to elect a new pope? In this episode, we continue our conversation with canon lawyer Benedict Nguyen of the University of St. Thomas in Houston.
The timing couldn't be more perfect—recorded during the recent papal conclave, our conversation explores the fascinating tension between Hollywood portrayals (like the trending film "Conclave") and the authentic spiritual process. Nguyen distinguishes between procedural accuracy and the deeper theological substance that drives papal succession, offering insights into what happens behind those famous locked doors.
Of course, we tackle the burning question many Americans wonder: Could a cardinal with Texas ties like Kevin Farrell or Daniel DiNardo ever become pope? The answer proves more complex than you might expect, as we discuss the geopolitical considerations, historical precedents, and surprising unpredictability of conclaves throughout history.
Whether you're fascinated by religious history, political processes, or simply curious about one of the world's oldest continuing institutions, this episode offers intellectual stimulation and surprising insights. Subscribe now and join our exploration of where Texas connects to pivotal moments in world history.
For more information, see Papal Death & Conclave Presented by Benedict Nguyen on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/live/xvKdoO867W0?si=RCvS_kwycUi--LhS
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosbeck and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Well, welcome back to anotheredition of Talking Texas History
.
Well, welcome back to anotheredition of Talking Texas History
.
Last time we had the first partof a conversation with Benedict
Wynne, who is the Associate VicePresident at the University of
St Thomas in Houston.
He's a canon lawyer and he wastalking with us in our last
(01:02):
episode about what happens whenyou elect a new pope the old
pope passes away and during thattransition period Now, while we
were recording that interview,we were, of course, during the
conclave period they were tryingto decide.
As we wrapped up, I wentdownstairs and on the news was
(01:27):
the broadcast that white smokewas seen coming out of the
chimney, which means that a newpope was elected.
So it was a timely interviewand we're going to continue with
part two of that interview andtalk about some other things
relating to popes and theirelections and history in the
(01:50):
Catholic Church.
So Scott's got a great questionabout the movie Conclave.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I read something the other day that streaming and
downloading of the movie theConclave has increased by 300%
since the passing of PopeFrancis on this, and I watched
it and I was fascinated by it.
Of course, tell us, because youwould have insight onto that
First maybe, how accurate.
You know movies take libertieswe, being historians, know how
(02:18):
much they do but of the process,to some extent, how accurate
was that movie in portraying aconclave?
And if not, or even if it is,just give us a little insight,
idea.
What's going on inside thatroom to some extent, how are
they doing this?
What's happening procedurally,not decision-making or so.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, I've always enjoyed Robert Harris's writings
.
His Sister Old Trilogy was justone.
That was absolutely fantasticthat he wrote.
I really enjoyed it, and sowhen Conclave came out, you know
I rushed to get the book wellbefore all of this was popular,
and so I read the book and itwas one of those where it left a
bad taste in my mouth.
There were some things that wereso good in it and other things
(02:59):
that were just, you know, veryoff base with it.
And then when the movie cameout, the cinematography, the
colors, the pageantry fantastichow it's done A lot of it was
accurate in the procedural sense.
Now, of course, again,hollywood drama being what it is
, you have to kind of movethings around a little bit.
It's not going to portray everysingle little thing.
So I get that.
(03:20):
The notion of having to voteand fold and bring it up and
things like that.
That's very accurate.
We have a document that, uh,actually pope john paul ii uh
gathered and put together.
It's called university.
Uh, dominici grates on on theuniversal care of the universal
flock of the lord.
In it, what he did was hegathered together centuries and
(03:41):
centuries of protocols on howthis works, on how the conclave
works, how the interregnumperiod works, how the set of
content works.
Benedict tweaked it just alittle bit and we can talk about
that because it was kind of asignificant tweak.
Francis tweaked some of theceremonial aspect as well, but
usually that document, which wecall UDG, University of
Dominican Republic is really theguiding principle, and what
(04:06):
people have been surprised tosee is just how detailed that
document is.
I mean, the document,particularly when it comes to
the canonical election of a pope, is very, very precise because,
again, we don't want anybodyplaying fast and low, we don't
want anybody cheating on this.
So to the point where you knowwho's selected as the
scrutineers, who's the counters,who's selected and who can say
(04:28):
what, in what order you vote,how you have to vote, how public
it has to be, that's portrayedfairly, you know, fairly
accurately in the book and inthe movie.
What was not, I don't think, asaccurate was some of the
characters I think were, again,you know, being drama.
Some of the characters weremuch more flat, in the sense
they were more one-dimensional.
(04:48):
Yeah, there's politics andintrigues and things like that,
but a lot of cardinals are muchmore in tune with their duties
and things like that.
So I think it gave a little bitof a feel that this is more of
a political process than aliturgical and spiritual one.
It also gave the kind of thetemptation of looking at this
(05:10):
process purely through politicaleyes and while, yes, the papacy
is something that exists intime, the papacy is something
that is on the geopoliticalstage.
The papacy is predominantly,you know, a spiritual leader who
the big question is can thisperson, can this Pope, preach
the gospel in history, in thehere and now?
(05:31):
And I think the movie kind ofit kind of did bring that out as
much.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Well, that brings up a good point, I guess, when we
talk about this, you said thepolitics and you said it plays a
role.
How much of a role does it playin electing a new pope?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, I think I mean, again, my undergraduate was in
musicology, so history hasalways been kind of a love of
mine, just like both of you.
The Christian faith,catholicism in particular, is
what we call a historicalreligion, which means that, you
know, it's not just a set ofmoral codes, it's not just a
(06:06):
philosophy of life, it'ssomething that we believe exists
in history.
The crux of it is whether Godexists and whether his son, god
himself, entered into history asa human person.
Because of that, then, and thenin the Catholic perspective,
that he starts this church to bean instrument of salvation and
things like that.
Which means that, you know, thechurch, the body of Christ,
(06:29):
exists in time and exists inspace and exists in history, and
because of that there's a veryyou know, if you will, pretty
realism to that.
And of course, the papacy has,has existed on that geopolitical
stage for centuries now as aforce.
Then the reason for it is topreach the gospel, is to make
(06:49):
the gospel known.
Now, different times in historywe've done that better than
others.
Other, in some times that humanside took over a little bit
more and we've forgotten aboutthat more divine mission.
So there's that constant pushand pull there divine mission.
So there's that constant pushand pull there.
In contemporary times,particularly with the loss of
the papal states under Pope PiusIX, the papacy kind of shifted
(07:12):
a little bit on the geopoliticalstage.
No more is it, you know, thekingdom of the papal states with
armies and things like that.
Now it's more of the moralconscience, if you will, so that
you know, for example, the HolySee is a permanent observer at
the UN and serves as mediatorsin lots of international
conflicts and things like that.
So there is, while it is notthe main focus of the Church,
(07:37):
because the Church exists inhistory, in time, the papacy is,
you know, is a presence in timeat the service of humanity.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
We have two cardinals with Texas ties Kevin Cardinal
Farrell, who's also theCamerlingo that we just talked
about, of course, and DanielCardinal DiNardo, who we
mentioned earlier.
There's never been an Americanpope, and these two guys are
Texas with Texas ties.
So I want to ask you I mean youwant to get into prediction or
(08:08):
whatever.
I don't think I've heard itwould happen this time, but
maybe will we see an AmericanPope in the near future and
could they be from Texas?
Speaker 3 (08:19):
A great and interesting question, which many
have speculated on.
As always, the conclavesusually are I would even use the
word wild, unpredictably wild.
And the conclave who would havepredicted in 1978 that we would
(08:40):
have a pope elected who was notonly a non-Italian in 1978, the
first non-Italian pope in 450,some odd years, that not only
was he a non-Italian, that hewould be a Polish pope from
behind the Iron Curtain Totalsurprise.
Who would have thought thatafter him, you know, a very old
German theologian would becomepope?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
and then who would have thought after him?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
an Argentinian would become pope.
Nobody could have predicted anyone of the last three popes.
I think it was a completesurprise.
That's my way of saying.
It's anybody's call when itcomes to who could become pope.
Could Cardinal Di Nardo comeout on the balcony as the next
pope?
Could Cardinal Farrow?
Anything is possible With theAmericas.
(09:26):
You know now Pope Francis istechnically the first American
pope.
You know South American.
There hasn't been a NorthAmerican pope.
We've had African popes before,because a lot of people are
speculating, saying, you know,should we have an African pope?
Well, we've had African popesbefore, but the last one was in
like the 400s, 500s or somethinglike that.
So it's been a while.
(09:46):
Could we have an Asian pope?
Well, sure, I don't think we'vehad a Far East Asian pope ever
in history.
It depends on how you countAsia, because certainly we have
Middle Eastern popes and thingslike that.
Could we have a North Americanpope?
Yeah, absolutely, the odds arethe same.
Is it unlikely?
In my opinion, probablyunlikely, and the reason for
(10:07):
that is that the reality of itis that it's still.
There is a geopolitical aspectto it, there is an ethnic, kind
of regional aspect to it, but Ithink it would be too simplistic
to think, for example, that allthe American cardinals would
vote alike, all the Italiancardinals would vote alike.
All the cardinals are wildlyindependent on the way that they
(10:29):
think and the way they vote.
Would North American candidatesbe considered?
I think, given the geopoliticalmoment in history, I think a
lot of the world still has alittle bit of a nervousness with
some of the things from NorthAmerica.
So, given that, I think itwould be highly unlikely, but
(10:51):
the Holy Spirit has surprised usbefore.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
You never know, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Well, let me read a little statement here, and this
is from Pope Francis's book thatjust came out, Hope, the
autobiography, and it was.
You know he wanted this to beprinted after he passed away,
but he had it published a littlebit early and when I got the
(11:15):
news that he died I was actuallyI had gotten up from bed and I
was walking in the house and Isaw on my phone this is about
three o'clock in the morning thefirst notice that he had died,
which I guess was about oneo'clock Rome time, which was
about the time he died.
(11:36):
So it was very, very quicklythereafter, but this is from his
book.
I have lived a long life, longerthan my parents, longer than my
brothers and sisters, and it'sa life I would not have even
remotely imagined as a child.
Gratitude and unworthiness arethe feelings that accompany this
reflection, these thoughts, andthese are not just words, not
(12:00):
at all.
I feel unworthy.
I feel ungrateful because, inthe face of so much good that I
have received, I have made somany errors, so many mistakes.
I also feel fortunate,disproportionately fortunate,
because not all of my brothersand sisters have had the same
human fulfillment.
Certainly, none of them died ofhunger.
(12:21):
None of them were held indisregard, but they had their
difficulties, some of them morethan others, with moments of
suffering, separation,remarriage.
I am a man who has beenforgiven.
I always am.
During my life, I have hadmoments of crisis, of emptiness,
of sin, periods of worldliness,and then the Lord was able to
(12:43):
take me away from them.
When I cast my mind back tothese moments of existential or
moral darkness, I wonder how Imanaged to survive.
And yet I did.
I survived, I continued myjourney.
Now he writes this at thebeginning of the chapter on,
where he talks about theconclave where he was elected.
(13:03):
And what a surprise it was.
And you know he didn't reallybelieve that it was happening
and people were telling him, youknow, oh, you know, what do you
think about this?
Well, what does it feel like tobe the next pope?
And they hadn't even voted yet.
I guess he was elected on thesecond ballot.
But I think that that humilityand that idea that popes are not
(13:24):
perfect resonated throughouthis papacy.
That popes are not perfect.
They make mistakes.
They're human beings.
You know they.
They put on their pants one ata time, just like the rest of us
.
They put on their red shoes, oneat a time, just like Scott puts
on his red shoes shoes one at atime, just like Scott puts on
(13:47):
his red shoes, and I think thatthat was really a nice, a moving
thing.
That he said is to admit thatyou know, I'm just a human being
and I think a lot of timespeople forget that and people
forget that about the church andpeople forget that about the
Church.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, that's a beautiful reflection.
What strikes me about it isjust the human honesty that's
there.
Sometimes people misunderstandthe papacy quite a bit and we
Catholics don't help with that alot of times.
You know, the papacy iscertainly the sign of unity.
The papacy we believe hascertain charisms that, for
(14:24):
example, you know thejurisdiction aspect of it.
Under certain circumstancesthere is a bit of fallibility,
teaching.
You know those types of things,but never does the Church say
and has ever taught that popesare kind of these.
You know demigods and perfectcharacters and things like that.
St Peter, our first pope, failedmiserably, denying our Lord
(14:47):
three times, right there.
Does it mean that God doesn'tcall him?
You know, when I do reflectionsfor my seminarians I teach at
St Mary's Seminary here inHouston as well I always point
out that you know it'sinteresting after Peter denies
our Lord three times.
I always point out that youknow it's interesting.
After Peter denies our Lordthree times you would expect
just a word of forgiveness fromthe Lord on the shore of the Sea
(15:08):
of Galilee there, but what youget instead was that Peter go
feed my sheep.
So it's interesting, you know,when we admit our failings and
things like that, god not onlyforgives us, but he gives us a
mission to go forward.
And I see the papacy assomething like that where, yeah,
(15:29):
it's made up of very falliblemen, just like we are all
fallible.
In that sense we fail miserablyand popes can't fail miserably.
They can make bad decisions,they can, you know, interact
improperly with people andthings like that, and that's all
.
There there is a level ofrespect that we have for the
office, but there also is alevel of being able to call out
a pope and to say, hey, veryrespectfully.
(15:50):
This is not something that wethink is wise or something like
that.
That's certainly there.
You see that in saints likeCatherine of Siena, for example,
where she called out the popewho had been living over in
Avignon, france, for severaldecades, and say, hey, it's time
to come back to Rome.
You can't just shirk yourduties, you need to bring the
court back over here, and shewas influential in getting the
(16:11):
entire papal court back to Rome,where they were supposed to be.
So she certainly had atremendous respect for the
office of the papacy and for theperson of the Pope, but
certainly did not mince wordsand was very direct in urging
and criticizing certaindecisions that were there.
I think the papacy in moderntimes is the same way.
We can really err on the sideof thinking that the papacy is
(16:34):
something that's not special, orwe can err on the side of
saying, you know, folks can dono wrong either.
I think any one of the popeswould be the first to admit,
like Francis did beautifullythere hey, I am a human person.
I, you know, did some bad calls.
There are things that I can dobetter.
Please pray for me, pleaseassist me, but I am given this
duty of leadership and I'm goingto try to do the best I can.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, it was a fantastic statement that he read
how, when Francis was elected,how surprised were you that he
was elected, because you know,we had Benedict and then Francis
and those were two verydifferent in perspective and
philosophy and things like that.
So were you very surprised thatFrancis was elected.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
I was super surprised in the sense that I had no idea
who he was.
It's the.
You know the formula of theannouncement.
You know I announced to you agreat joy, we have a hope, you
know.
And then the, the, the, the theperson's first name is called.
What they call their Christianname is called out first.
And so when he said, you know,you know, I had no idea.
(17:43):
And so I'm trying to go throughmy list of cardinals, it's like
, okay, jorge, but but then, ofcourse, he's doing it in latin,
uh, and so in the latin, you'relike you're trying to translate
it out okay, is this jorge inthe latin, in the, in the
spanish?
So, is that george?
You know, am I looking for ageorge, am I looking for a jacob
, whatever?
So I'm going through my list.
I just couldn't find who thisguy was.
And then finally they saidBergoglio.
(18:03):
Okay, so now we're looking atthe last name and oh, the
Cardinal, archbishop of BuenosAires, in Argentina, honestly
had no idea who he was.
So this is where the Holy Spiritcan surprise us.
That could very well be thecase again.
We have people who are kind offavorites among certain news
outlets and things like that,certain factions.
Sure, you'll get that, but itcould be somebody who's totally
(18:27):
a surprise and totally thatpeople just simply hasn't heard.
Even John Paul II, although hewas a little bit more popular
during his time, was not knownto most of the world.
So when they said Harold, it'slike okay, how many cardinals do
we have?
Pharaoh or charles?
Again, you have the languagething that that you're dealing
with, uh.
And then when they said what hewas like, who's what?
He was, no idea whatnationality he was.
(18:47):
So complete surprise.
I was very surprised with withbergoglio, was very surprised
with.
Quite frankly, I was surprisedwith benedict as well.
Uh, because ratzinger tried toretire three times, uh, and he
was done.
He was technically his lastduty at the Vatican was to
preside over, because he was thesenior cardinal, was to preside
over the burial of John Paul IIand then the conclave, and then
(19:12):
he was like yeah, then I'm backto Germany to write my books
and retire and hang out withsome coffee and things like that
.
But all of a sudden God hadother plans.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
That brings up something interesting that I
want to ask you, because it isreally, I find this fascinating.
You know, we don't think aboutand we're talking about the Pope
, and we're talking about JeanRed Francis's statement that,
yes, he's the bishop of Rome,he's the head of the Catholic
Church, but he's also a worldleader and in the sense that
(19:44):
he's a world leader, he has alot of influence on what goes on
in the world.
And quite often in history we'rehistorians in history a new
pope has been the harbinger of acertain ideology of direction,
not just in the church but inthe world as well.
I mean, I look back and I think, when you think of John Paul II
to some extent I think hepredicted the end of the Soviet
(20:06):
bloc in the Cold War because hewas such an anti-Soviet living
in behind the Iron Curtain Ithink of John XXIII, who's the
Vatican II, who's the resultantVatican II somewhat predicted
the reform of the 1960s that wascoming on and stuff.
So my question, I think, is doyou think a new pope could be
(20:28):
another one of these that'sgoing to be a new direction?
Or maybe Francis was the onethat was the new direction and
we're already doing that right?
Speaker 3 (20:37):
now.
Yeah, so it's a great question.
It brings up what you knowagain, I tend to see it in
theological terms what weCatholics would see it as this
interplay between nature andgrace, that there is certainly a
grace part of it.
You know, the Holy Spiritguides the church, guides the
Pope, and things like that.
(20:57):
But each and every single oneof the Popes, each and every one
, a single one of us in ourlives, brings sort of a natural
nature aspect to it.
So all of our achievements, allof our scholarship, all of our
failings, all of our tendenciesare brought to that office and
to the duties that we do.
Throughout history we had someincredible Popes who have
(21:18):
brought that sort of naturalperspective and their natural
abilities at a time where thechurch really needed it.
So, yes, while relying on grace, we want to look at popes, and
I'm sure the cardinals arethinking this as they're
considering who to elect.
They're thinking, you know, whoelse brings a natural ability
for this moment in time.
So again, some of the popesthat you brought up, you know,
(21:40):
certainly we have Pius IX, backin the late 1800s or so, where
you had the issue of Italianunification that was going on,
all that geopolitical things.
The loss of the papal states,that was going on.
First, vatican Council, thatwas going on.
You had kind of lateEnlightenment thinking that was
going on, kind of a rationalismthat was going on.
He was the right guy for thetime.
(22:02):
He was beloved by some, hatedby the others on that
geopolitical field.
Followed by Leo XIII, who dealtwith communism, dealt with the
specter of communism, and a lotof the social teachings of the
church came from Leo XIIIbecause he was right smack dab
in the issues of the IndustrialRevolution that was going on.
(22:24):
And then, of course, pius X,and we can go on and on Pius X,
pius XI, benedict XV, pius XI,pius XII, through World War II.
And then, also going into ourown time, john XXIII, paul VI,
john Paul I, john Paul II,benedict, and so you have this
line and each one brings theirvery unique strengths and
(22:45):
weaknesses to it as well.
Certainly, john Paul II was amoment because, yeah, his
interaction and his dealing withcommunism and many people said
that it was actually no lessthan Mikhail Gorbachev.
When asked what was it thatbrought down communism, he said
John Paul II and his you know,support of the solidarity
(23:08):
movement in Poland, things likethat kind of his interaction
with Reagan and Thatcher, andyou know that trifecta that was
going on really put enoughpressure on the Soviet Union
until it collapsed and the wallcame down.
What moment are we in right now?
That's the main thing that theCardinals are turning over in
their minds right now.
Is this a moment where, ofcourse, relying on God's grace
(23:30):
and the grace of the Holy Spirit, who is the one and what are
the natural abilities that wewould want our leader, in a very
natural way as well, to bringto this current moment in time?
It's a fascinating question anda fascinating thing to discern.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, I think you know, as historians, I really do
think when we get down towriting and we're still coming
to grips with the end ofcommunism and that I mean we're
historians we're always behind.
I really think when we get downto writing the end of communism
and how did that happen I thinkthe election of John Paul II is
going to go to the very top ofthat.
(24:07):
I think when it comes, he isgoing to be.
We're going to look back and goyes, this is when we could say
it's about to happen.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
when he came and I've always believed- yeah, there's
always that quip that peoplepoint to, that there wasn't
Lenin who said you know hequipped.
You know well, how manydivisions does the pope have,
how many troops does the popehave?
And people said, well, it waskind of interesting because you
know, about 100 years later, inthe late 1980s, john Paul II had
no troops.
He had a rosary and someinfluence and it brought down
(24:37):
the Soviet.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Union.
So what is the role ofpoliticking inside the conclave?
I mean, I get that they're, youknow, they do prayer, they do
mass and they met, I guess, asthey were arriving before the
conclave began.
But is there the type ofpoliticking that we see in like
(24:59):
American politics?
Is there the type ofpoliticking that we see in like
American politics?
Is there that type of, you know, jockeying for position,
building of coalitions?
Do you have any idea of howthat works?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Yeah, the first the official answer and then the
analytic question.
The official answer is that inthe document the University of
Dominican on how conclaves aresupposed to be done, it is
forbidden to have you know kindof entering into agreements with
favors and things like that Ifyou vote for me, I'm going to
make you the secretary of state,or something like that.
(25:31):
That's forbidden under pains ofexcommunication.
That's forbidden.
What's not forbidden, however,and actually encouraged, is the
conversation and discernmentwith each other that's going on,
because the reality is that inorder to get two-thirds votes,
you have to have someconversation and should have
conversations with your fellowcardinals, because otherwise
(25:51):
there's no way you're going toget to a two-thirds vote.
The complexity of this conclaveright now that adds to it is
that this is probably the firstconclave in history that's,
first of all, this big.
I don't think we've ever hadthis big of a conclave before in
history.
Before conclaves were muchsmaller because of travel,
(26:12):
because of things like that.
Now, almost all of thecardinals who are but two who
are eligible to vote are thereand voting.
Who are or but two who areeligible to vote are there and
voting, and that's phenomenal.
We've never had 133 electorsbefore.
That's phenomenal.
The other complexity that'sthrown on top of that is that
the College of Cardinals, nowmore than any time in history,
is more diverse, not onlygeographically, but ethnically,
(26:38):
and from different regions andthings like that.
With that there's a complexityof communication.
Some of these cardinals havenever met each other.
Some of these cardinals havehad very limited interaction
with each other.
So within a period of about aweek, week and a half, you're
doing a task of electing theleader of 1.4 billion Catholics.
How do you get up to speed?
(26:59):
How do you make that connectionthat quickly?
I mean, we've all gone toprofessional conferences and we
all know, gosh, you know, in aweek, how can you connect even
with that?
You know my fellow attorneyswho are here.
Imagine people from across theworld who don't necessarily
speak the same language.
You know usually Italian, someof them who can function in
Latin, although that's less andless.
(27:19):
So you know you're trying tosearch for a common language
even to be able to do it.
So that's complexity that'sgoing to be very interesting to
play out.
Is there politicking?
Is there human nature beingwhat it is?
The idea is that, yeah, thereare, you know.
Hopefully not that politickingin the sense of what's forbidden
(27:40):
in university divinitycreatures, but I hope that there
would be in a sense, coalitions, in a sense agreements, not as
an I'll scratch your back, youscratch mine, but agreement with
hey, this guy we think is thestrong candidate, this guy is
what we need at this time.
Those are conversations thatreally can and should be going
on.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
This brings up the language thing.
Just very quickly.
I keep coming to thesequestions.
If I'm remembering correctly,you said you were Italian.
Most of the cardinals probablyspeak Italian.
I remember that John Paul IIspoke Italian, francis, even
though he was from aSpanish-speaking country.
I believe he spoke Italiancorrect and I know Benedict, to
(28:23):
most of the cardinals more thanlikely is that Italian probably
the language that theycommunicate in.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Yeah, now that Latin has kind of lost its favor just
a little bit, although Latin isstill the official language of
the Vatican.
But so many cardinals, so manybishops now, even though they
understand and can read Latin,it can't function
conversationally in it as well.
So there are a lot oftranslators and things like that
.
So the Vatican is very goodwith providing instant
(28:50):
translation and things like that, but once you get to closed
doors you don't have atranslator there anymore.
That could become quite complex.
Italian has become kind of thelingua franca for those who
operate and have associationswith the Vatican.
So if you're in a Vatican office, it's almost expected that you
can function in Italian just tobe able to get through the
day-to-day stuff, becausethere's so many things in
(29:12):
Italian.
In my own field of canon law,you have to be able to function
in Latin, because the officialdocuments are all in Latin.
But there's a certain level ofexpectations that you can
function somewhat, at least at areading level, with the Italian
as well, because you'll getcorrespondences from the Vatican
in Italian or in Latin, thingslike that.
So, yeah, italian has becomethe lingua franca, if you will,
(29:35):
the default.
That being said, this isanother Francis thing he's
appointed so many cardinals thatare not associated as closely
with the Vatican.
So a lot of these bishops whocould probably stumble through,
or these cardinals who canprobably stumble through their
Italian don't have a fluency init, and so you're searching for
okay, would English be more of afluency, would French be a
(29:56):
little bit more of a fluency, orSpanish, or something like that
.
That becomes a very complexmatter, and we'll see how that
plays out during this conclave.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Well, that's a wrap for another edition of Talking
Texas History.
We've been talking withBenedict Wynne, the Dean of
Students and Associate VicePresident, university of St
Thomas here in Houston.
He's a canon lawyer.
He also holds a degree inmusicology From the University
of Kansas, master of theologicalstudies From the University of
(30:26):
Dallas, also a degree in canonlaw From Catholic University of
America, juris Doctorate FromHamline University School of Law
and a doctor of ministry Inbiblical exposition From Neshota
House Theological Seminary.
So very good, very interestingdiscussion on popes, how they're
(30:46):
chosen, especially in light ofthe election of Robert Prevost.
Cardinal Prevost is now PopeLeo XIV and first United
States-born pope, second popefrom the Americas.
(31:07):
So it's going to be interesting, as we move on, looking at the
history, what this means.
We know that the Pope has rootsand family from the New Orleans
area as well as in Chicago, ofcourse.
So it's going to be interestingmoving forward.
So thanks a lot for listeningFor Scott Sosby, I'm Gene Preuss
.
This has been Talking TexasHistory.
We'll see you again soon.
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosbeck and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Well, welcome back to anotheredition of Talking Texas History
.
Well, welcome back to anotheredition of Talking Texas History
.
Last time we had the first partof a conversation with Benedict
Wynne, who is the Associate VicePresident at the University of
St Thomas in Houston.
He's a canon lawyer and he wastalking with us in our last
(01:02):
episode about what happens whenyou elect a new pope the old
pope passes away and during thattransition period Now, while we
were recording that interview,we were, of course, during the
conclave period they were tryingto decide.
As we wrapped up, I wentdownstairs and on the news was
(01:27):
the broadcast that white smokewas seen coming out of the
chimney, which means that a newpope was elected.
So it was a timely interviewand we're going to continue with
part two of that interview andtalk about some other things
relating to popes and theirelections and history in the
(01:50):
Catholic Church.
So Scott's got a great questionabout the movie Conclave.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I read something the other day that streaming and
downloading of the movie theConclave has increased by 300%
since the passing of PopeFrancis on this, and I watched
it and I was fascinated by it.
Of course, tell us, because youwould have insight onto that
First maybe, how accurate.
You know movies take libertieswe, being historians, know how
(02:18):
much they do but of the process,to some extent, how accurate
was that movie in portraying aconclave?
And if not, or even if it is,just give us a little insight,
idea.
What's going on inside thatroom to some extent, how are
they doing this?
What's happening procedurally,not decision-making or so.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, I've always enjoyed Robert Harris's writings
.
His Sister Old Trilogy was justone.
That was absolutely fantasticthat he wrote.
I really enjoyed it, and sowhen Conclave came out, you know
I rushed to get the book wellbefore all of this was popular,
and so I read the book and itwas one of those where it left a
bad taste in my mouth.
There were some things that wereso good in it and other things
(02:59):
that were just, you know, veryoff base with it.
And then when the movie cameout, the cinematography, the
colors, the pageantry fantastichow it's done A lot of it was
accurate in the procedural sense.
Now, of course, again,hollywood drama being what it is
, you have to kind of movethings around a little bit.
It's not going to portray everysingle little thing.
So I get that.
(03:20):
The notion of having to voteand fold and bring it up and
things like that.
That's very accurate.
We have a document that, uh,actually pope john paul ii uh
gathered and put together.
It's called university.
Uh, dominici grates on on theuniversal care of the universal
flock of the lord.
In it, what he did was hegathered together centuries and
(03:41):
centuries of protocols on howthis works, on how the conclave
works, how the interregnumperiod works, how the set of
content works.
Benedict tweaked it just alittle bit and we can talk about
that because it was kind of asignificant tweak.
Francis tweaked some of theceremonial aspect as well, but
usually that document, which wecall UDG, University of
Dominican Republic is really theguiding principle, and what
(04:06):
people have been surprised tosee is just how detailed that
document is.
I mean, the document,particularly when it comes to
the canonical election of a pope, is very, very precise because,
again, we don't want anybodyplaying fast and low, we don't
want anybody cheating on this.
So to the point where you knowwho's selected as the
scrutineers, who's the counters,who's selected and who can say
(04:28):
what, in what order you vote,how you have to vote, how public
it has to be, that's portrayedfairly, you know, fairly
accurately in the book and inthe movie.
What was not, I don't think, asaccurate was some of the
characters I think were, again,you know, being drama.
Some of the characters weremuch more flat, in the sense
they were more one-dimensional.
(04:48):
Yeah, there's politics andintrigues and things like that,
but a lot of cardinals are muchmore in tune with their duties
and things like that.
So I think it gave a little bitof a feel that this is more of
a political process than aliturgical and spiritual one.
It also gave the kind of thetemptation of looking at this
(05:10):
process purely through politicaleyes and while, yes, the papacy
is something that exists intime, the papacy is something
that is on the geopoliticalstage.
The papacy is predominantly,you know, a spiritual leader who
the big question is can thisperson, can this Pope, preach
the gospel in history, in thehere and now?
(05:31):
And I think the movie kind ofit kind of did bring that out as
much.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Well, that brings up a good point, I guess, when we
talk about this, you said thepolitics and you said it plays a
role.
How much of a role does it playin electing a new pope?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, I think I mean, again, my undergraduate was in
musicology, so history hasalways been kind of a love of
mine, just like both of you.
The Christian faith,catholicism in particular, is
what we call a historicalreligion, which means that, you
know, it's not just a set ofmoral codes, it's not just a
(06:06):
philosophy of life, it'ssomething that we believe exists
in history.
The crux of it is whether Godexists and whether his son, god
himself, entered into history asa human person.
Because of that, then, and thenin the Catholic perspective,
that he starts this church to bean instrument of salvation and
things like that.
Which means that, you know, thechurch, the body of Christ,
(06:29):
exists in time and exists inspace and exists in history, and
because of that there's a veryyou know, if you will, pretty
realism to that.
And of course, the papacy has,has existed on that geopolitical
stage for centuries now as aforce.
Then the reason for it is topreach the gospel, is to make
(06:49):
the gospel known.
Now, different times in historywe've done that better than
others.
Other, in some times that humanside took over a little bit
more and we've forgotten aboutthat more divine mission.
So there's that constant pushand pull there divine mission.
So there's that constant pushand pull there.
In contemporary times,particularly with the loss of
the papal states under Pope PiusIX, the papacy kind of shifted
(07:12):
a little bit on the geopoliticalstage.
No more is it, you know, thekingdom of the papal states with
armies and things like that.
Now it's more of the moralconscience, if you will, so that
you know, for example, the HolySee is a permanent observer at
the UN and serves as mediatorsin lots of international
conflicts and things like that.
So there is, while it is notthe main focus of the Church,
(07:37):
because the Church exists inhistory, in time, the papacy is,
you know, is a presence in timeat the service of humanity.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
We have two cardinals with Texas ties Kevin Cardinal
Farrell, who's also theCamerlingo that we just talked
about, of course, and DanielCardinal DiNardo, who we
mentioned earlier.
There's never been an Americanpope, and these two guys are
Texas with Texas ties.
So I want to ask you I mean youwant to get into prediction or
(08:08):
whatever.
I don't think I've heard itwould happen this time, but
maybe will we see an AmericanPope in the near future and
could they be from Texas?
Speaker 3 (08:19):
A great and interesting question, which many
have speculated on.
As always, the conclavesusually are I would even use the
word wild, unpredictably wild.
And the conclave who would havepredicted in 1978 that we would
(08:40):
have a pope elected who was notonly a non-Italian in 1978, the
first non-Italian pope in 450,some odd years, that not only
was he a non-Italian, that hewould be a Polish pope from
behind the Iron Curtain Totalsurprise.
Who would have thought thatafter him, you know, a very old
German theologian would becomepope?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
and then who would have thought after him?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
an Argentinian would become pope.
Nobody could have predicted anyone of the last three popes.
I think it was a completesurprise.
That's my way of saying.
It's anybody's call when itcomes to who could become pope.
Could Cardinal Di Nardo comeout on the balcony as the next
pope?
Could Cardinal Farrow?
Anything is possible With theAmericas.
(09:26):
You know now Pope Francis istechnically the first American
pope.
You know South American.
There hasn't been a NorthAmerican pope.
We've had African popes before,because a lot of people are
speculating, saying, you know,should we have an African pope?
Well, we've had African popesbefore, but the last one was in
like the 400s, 500s or somethinglike that.
So it's been a while.
(09:46):
Could we have an Asian pope?
Well, sure, I don't think we'vehad a Far East Asian pope ever
in history.
It depends on how you countAsia, because certainly we have
Middle Eastern popes and thingslike that.
Could we have a North Americanpope?
Yeah, absolutely, the odds arethe same.
Is it unlikely?
In my opinion, probablyunlikely, and the reason for
(10:07):
that is that the reality of itis that it's still.
There is a geopolitical aspectto it, there is an ethnic, kind
of regional aspect to it, but Ithink it would be too simplistic
to think, for example, that allthe American cardinals would
vote alike, all the Italiancardinals would vote alike.
All the cardinals are wildlyindependent on the way that they
(10:29):
think and the way they vote.
Would North American candidatesbe considered?
I think, given the geopoliticalmoment in history, I think a
lot of the world still has alittle bit of a nervousness with
some of the things from NorthAmerica.
So, given that, I think itwould be highly unlikely, but
(10:51):
the Holy Spirit has surprised usbefore.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
You never know, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Well, let me read a little statement here, and this
is from Pope Francis's book thatjust came out, Hope, the
autobiography, and it was.
You know he wanted this to beprinted after he passed away,
but he had it published a littlebit early and when I got the
(11:15):
news that he died I was actuallyI had gotten up from bed and I
was walking in the house and Isaw on my phone this is about
three o'clock in the morning thefirst notice that he had died,
which I guess was about oneo'clock Rome time, which was
about the time he died.
(11:36):
So it was very, very quicklythereafter, but this is from his
book.
I have lived a long life, longerthan my parents, longer than my
brothers and sisters, and it'sa life I would not have even
remotely imagined as a child.
Gratitude and unworthiness arethe feelings that accompany this
reflection, these thoughts, andthese are not just words, not
(12:00):
at all.
I feel unworthy.
I feel ungrateful because, inthe face of so much good that I
have received, I have made somany errors, so many mistakes.
I also feel fortunate,disproportionately fortunate,
because not all of my brothersand sisters have had the same
human fulfillment.
Certainly, none of them died ofhunger.
(12:21):
None of them were held indisregard, but they had their
difficulties, some of them morethan others, with moments of
suffering, separation,remarriage.
I am a man who has beenforgiven.
I always am.
During my life, I have hadmoments of crisis, of emptiness,
of sin, periods of worldliness,and then the Lord was able to
(12:43):
take me away from them.
When I cast my mind back tothese moments of existential or
moral darkness, I wonder how Imanaged to survive.
And yet I did.
I survived, I continued myjourney.
Now he writes this at thebeginning of the chapter on,
where he talks about theconclave where he was elected.
(13:03):
And what a surprise it was.
And you know he didn't reallybelieve that it was happening
and people were telling him, youknow, oh, you know, what do you
think about this?
Well, what does it feel like tobe the next pope?
And they hadn't even voted yet.
I guess he was elected on thesecond ballot.
But I think that that humilityand that idea that popes are not
(13:24):
perfect resonated throughouthis papacy.
That popes are not perfect.
They make mistakes.
They're human beings.
You know they.
They put on their pants one ata time, just like the rest of us
.
They put on their red shoes, oneat a time, just like Scott puts
on his red shoes shoes one at atime, just like Scott puts on
(13:47):
his red shoes, and I think thatthat was really a nice, a moving
thing.
That he said is to admit thatyou know, I'm just a human being
and I think a lot of timespeople forget that and people
forget that about the church andpeople forget that about the
Church.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, that's a beautiful reflection.
What strikes me about it isjust the human honesty that's
there.
Sometimes people misunderstandthe papacy quite a bit and we
Catholics don't help with that alot of times.
You know, the papacy iscertainly the sign of unity.
The papacy we believe hascertain charisms that, for
(14:24):
example, you know thejurisdiction aspect of it.
Under certain circumstancesthere is a bit of fallibility,
teaching.
You know those types of things,but never does the Church say
and has ever taught that popesare kind of these.
You know demigods and perfectcharacters and things like that.
St Peter, our first pope, failedmiserably, denying our Lord
(14:47):
three times, right there.
Does it mean that God doesn'tcall him?
You know, when I do reflectionsfor my seminarians I teach at
St Mary's Seminary here inHouston as well I always point
out that you know it'sinteresting after Peter denies
our Lord three times.
I always point out that youknow it's interesting.
After Peter denies our Lordthree times you would expect
just a word of forgiveness fromthe Lord on the shore of the Sea
(15:08):
of Galilee there, but what youget instead was that Peter go
feed my sheep.
So it's interesting, you know,when we admit our failings and
things like that, god not onlyforgives us, but he gives us a
mission to go forward.
And I see the papacy assomething like that where, yeah,
(15:29):
it's made up of very falliblemen, just like we are all
fallible.
In that sense we fail miserablyand popes can't fail miserably.
They can make bad decisions,they can, you know, interact
improperly with people andthings like that, and that's all
.
There there is a level ofrespect that we have for the
office, but there also is alevel of being able to call out
a pope and to say, hey, veryrespectfully.
(15:50):
This is not something that wethink is wise or something like
that.
That's certainly there.
You see that in saints likeCatherine of Siena, for example,
where she called out the popewho had been living over in
Avignon, france, for severaldecades, and say, hey, it's time
to come back to Rome.
You can't just shirk yourduties, you need to bring the
court back over here, and shewas influential in getting the
(16:11):
entire papal court back to Rome,where they were supposed to be.
So she certainly had atremendous respect for the
office of the papacy and for theperson of the Pope, but
certainly did not mince wordsand was very direct in urging
and criticizing certaindecisions that were there.
I think the papacy in moderntimes is the same way.
We can really err on the sideof thinking that the papacy is
(16:34):
something that's not special, orwe can err on the side of
saying, you know, folks can dono wrong either.
I think any one of the popeswould be the first to admit,
like Francis did beautifullythere hey, I am a human person.
I, you know, did some bad calls.
There are things that I can dobetter.
Please pray for me, pleaseassist me, but I am given this
duty of leadership and I'm goingto try to do the best I can.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, it was a fantastic statement that he read
how, when Francis was elected,how surprised were you that he
was elected, because you know,we had Benedict and then Francis
and those were two verydifferent in perspective and
philosophy and things like that.
So were you very surprised thatFrancis was elected.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
I was super surprised in the sense that I had no idea
who he was.
It's the.
You know the formula of theannouncement.
You know I announced to you agreat joy, we have a hope, you
know.
And then the, the, the, the theperson's first name is called.
What they call their Christianname is called out first.
And so when he said, you know,you know, I had no idea.
(17:43):
And so I'm trying to go throughmy list of cardinals, it's like
, okay, jorge, but but then, ofcourse, he's doing it in latin,
uh, and so in the latin, you'relike you're trying to translate
it out okay, is this jorge inthe latin, in the, in the
spanish?
So, is that george?
You know, am I looking for ageorge, am I looking for a jacob
, whatever?
So I'm going through my list.
I just couldn't find who thisguy was.
And then finally they saidBergoglio.
(18:03):
Okay, so now we're looking atthe last name and oh, the
Cardinal, archbishop of BuenosAires, in Argentina, honestly
had no idea who he was.
So this is where the Holy Spiritcan surprise us.
That could very well be thecase again.
We have people who are kind offavorites among certain news
outlets and things like that,certain factions.
Sure, you'll get that, but itcould be somebody who's totally
(18:27):
a surprise and totally thatpeople just simply hasn't heard.
Even John Paul II, although hewas a little bit more popular
during his time, was not knownto most of the world.
So when they said Harold, it'slike okay, how many cardinals do
we have?
Pharaoh or charles?
Again, you have the languagething that that you're dealing
with, uh.
And then when they said what hewas like, who's what?
He was, no idea whatnationality he was.
(18:47):
So complete surprise.
I was very surprised with withbergoglio, was very surprised
with.
Quite frankly, I was surprisedwith benedict as well.
Uh, because ratzinger tried toretire three times, uh, and he
was done.
He was technically his lastduty at the Vatican was to
preside over, because he was thesenior cardinal, was to preside
over the burial of John Paul IIand then the conclave, and then
(19:12):
he was like yeah, then I'm backto Germany to write my books
and retire and hang out withsome coffee and things like that
.
But all of a sudden God hadother plans.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
That brings up something interesting that I
want to ask you, because it isreally, I find this fascinating.
You know, we don't think aboutand we're talking about the Pope
, and we're talking about JeanRed Francis's statement that,
yes, he's the bishop of Rome,he's the head of the Catholic
Church, but he's also a worldleader and in the sense that
(19:44):
he's a world leader, he has alot of influence on what goes on
in the world.
And quite often in history we'rehistorians in history a new
pope has been the harbinger of acertain ideology of direction,
not just in the church but inthe world as well.
I mean, I look back and I think, when you think of John Paul II
to some extent I think hepredicted the end of the Soviet
(20:06):
bloc in the Cold War because hewas such an anti-Soviet living
in behind the Iron Curtain Ithink of John XXIII, who's the
Vatican II, who's the resultantVatican II somewhat predicted
the reform of the 1960s that wascoming on and stuff.
So my question, I think, is doyou think a new pope could be
(20:28):
another one of these that'sgoing to be a new direction?
Or maybe Francis was the onethat was the new direction and
we're already doing that right?
Speaker 3 (20:37):
now.
Yeah, so it's a great question.
It brings up what you knowagain, I tend to see it in
theological terms what weCatholics would see it as this
interplay between nature andgrace, that there is certainly a
grace part of it.
You know, the Holy Spiritguides the church, guides the
Pope, and things like that.
(20:57):
But each and every single oneof the Popes, each and every one
, a single one of us in ourlives, brings sort of a natural
nature aspect to it.
So all of our achievements, allof our scholarship, all of our
failings, all of our tendenciesare brought to that office and
to the duties that we do.
Throughout history we had someincredible Popes who have
(21:18):
brought that sort of naturalperspective and their natural
abilities at a time where thechurch really needed it.
So, yes, while relying on grace, we want to look at popes, and
I'm sure the cardinals arethinking this as they're
considering who to elect.
They're thinking, you know, whoelse brings a natural ability
for this moment in time.
So again, some of the popesthat you brought up, you know,
(21:40):
certainly we have Pius IX, backin the late 1800s or so, where
you had the issue of Italianunification that was going on,
all that geopolitical things.
The loss of the papal states,that was going on.
First, vatican Council, thatwas going on.
You had kind of lateEnlightenment thinking that was
going on, kind of a rationalismthat was going on.
He was the right guy for thetime.
(22:02):
He was beloved by some, hatedby the others on that
geopolitical field.
Followed by Leo XIII, who dealtwith communism, dealt with the
specter of communism, and a lotof the social teachings of the
church came from Leo XIIIbecause he was right smack dab
in the issues of the IndustrialRevolution that was going on.
(22:24):
And then, of course, pius X,and we can go on and on Pius X,
pius XI, benedict XV, pius XI,pius XII, through World War II.
And then, also going into ourown time, john XXIII, paul VI,
john Paul I, john Paul II,benedict, and so you have this
line and each one brings theirvery unique strengths and
(22:45):
weaknesses to it as well.
Certainly, john Paul II was amoment because, yeah, his
interaction and his dealing withcommunism and many people said
that it was actually no lessthan Mikhail Gorbachev.
When asked what was it thatbrought down communism, he said
John Paul II and his you know,support of the solidarity
(23:08):
movement in Poland, things likethat kind of his interaction
with Reagan and Thatcher, andyou know that trifecta that was
going on really put enoughpressure on the Soviet Union
until it collapsed and the wallcame down.
What moment are we in right now?
That's the main thing that theCardinals are turning over in
their minds right now.
Is this a moment where, ofcourse, relying on God's grace
(23:30):
and the grace of the Holy Spirit, who is the one and what are
the natural abilities that wewould want our leader, in a very
natural way as well, to bringto this current moment in time?
It's a fascinating question anda fascinating thing to discern.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, I think you know, as historians, I really do
think when we get down towriting and we're still coming
to grips with the end ofcommunism and that I mean we're
historians we're always behind.
I really think when we get downto writing the end of communism
and how did that happen I thinkthe election of John Paul II is
going to go to the very top ofthat.
(24:07):
I think when it comes, he isgoing to be.
We're going to look back and goyes, this is when we could say
it's about to happen.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
when he came and I've always believed- yeah, there's
always that quip that peoplepoint to, that there wasn't
Lenin who said you know hequipped.
You know well, how manydivisions does the pope have,
how many troops does the popehave?
And people said, well, it waskind of interesting because you
know, about 100 years later, inthe late 1980s, john Paul II had
no troops.
He had a rosary and someinfluence and it brought down
(24:37):
the Soviet.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Union.
So what is the role ofpoliticking inside the conclave?
I mean, I get that they're, youknow, they do prayer, they do
mass and they met, I guess, asthey were arriving before the
conclave began.
But is there the type ofpoliticking that we see in like
(24:59):
American politics?
Is there the type ofpoliticking that we see in like
American politics?
Is there that type of, you know, jockeying for position,
building of coalitions?
Do you have any idea of howthat works?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Yeah, the first the official answer and then the
analytic question.
The official answer is that inthe document the University of
Dominican on how conclaves aresupposed to be done, it is
forbidden to have you know kindof entering into agreements with
favors and things like that Ifyou vote for me, I'm going to
make you the secretary of state,or something like that.
(25:31):
That's forbidden under pains ofexcommunication.
That's forbidden.
What's not forbidden, however,and actually encouraged, is the
conversation and discernmentwith each other that's going on,
because the reality is that inorder to get two-thirds votes,
you have to have someconversation and should have
conversations with your fellowcardinals, because otherwise
(25:51):
there's no way you're going toget to a two-thirds vote.
The complexity of this conclaveright now that adds to it is
that this is probably the firstconclave in history that's,
first of all, this big.
I don't think we've ever hadthis big of a conclave before in
history.
Before conclaves were muchsmaller because of travel,
(26:12):
because of things like that.
Now, almost all of thecardinals who are but two who
are eligible to vote are thereand voting.
Who are or but two who areeligible to vote are there and
voting, and that's phenomenal.
We've never had 133 electorsbefore.
That's phenomenal.
The other complexity that'sthrown on top of that is that
the College of Cardinals, nowmore than any time in history,
is more diverse, not onlygeographically, but ethnically,
(26:38):
and from different regions andthings like that.
With that there's a complexityof communication.
Some of these cardinals havenever met each other.
Some of these cardinals havehad very limited interaction
with each other.
So within a period of about aweek, week and a half, you're
doing a task of electing theleader of 1.4 billion Catholics.
How do you get up to speed?
(26:59):
How do you make that connectionthat quickly?
I mean, we've all gone toprofessional conferences and we
all know, gosh, you know, in aweek, how can you connect even
with that?
You know my fellow attorneyswho are here.
Imagine people from across theworld who don't necessarily
speak the same language.
You know usually Italian, someof them who can function in
Latin, although that's less andless.
(27:19):
So you know you're trying tosearch for a common language
even to be able to do it.
So that's complexity that'sgoing to be very interesting to
play out.
Is there politicking?
Is there human nature beingwhat it is?
The idea is that, yeah, thereare, you know.
Hopefully not that politickingin the sense of what's forbidden
(27:40):
in university divinitycreatures, but I hope that there
would be in a sense, coalitions, in a sense agreements, not as
an I'll scratch your back, youscratch mine, but agreement with
hey, this guy we think is thestrong candidate, this guy is
what we need at this time.
Those are conversations thatreally can and should be going
on.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
This brings up the language thing.
Just very quickly.
I keep coming to thesequestions.
If I'm remembering correctly,you said you were Italian.
Most of the cardinals probablyspeak Italian.
I remember that John Paul IIspoke Italian, francis, even
though he was from aSpanish-speaking country.
I believe he spoke Italiancorrect and I know Benedict, to
(28:23):
most of the cardinals more thanlikely is that Italian probably
the language that theycommunicate in.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Yeah, now that Latin has kind of lost its favor just
a little bit, although Latin isstill the official language of
the Vatican.
But so many cardinals, so manybishops now, even though they
understand and can read Latin,it can't function
conversationally in it as well.
So there are a lot oftranslators and things like that
.
So the Vatican is very goodwith providing instant
(28:50):
translation and things like that, but once you get to closed
doors you don't have atranslator there anymore.
That could become quite complex.
Italian has become kind of thelingua franca for those who
operate and have associationswith the Vatican.
So if you're in a Vatican office, it's almost expected that you
can function in Italian just tobe able to get through the
day-to-day stuff, becausethere's so many things in
(29:12):
Italian.
In my own field of canon law,you have to be able to function
in Latin, because the officialdocuments are all in Latin.
But there's a certain level ofexpectations that you can
function somewhat, at least at areading level, with the Italian
as well, because you'll getcorrespondences from the Vatican
in Italian or in Latin, thingslike that.
So, yeah, italian has becomethe lingua franca, if you will,
(29:35):
the default.
That being said, this isanother Francis thing he's
appointed so many cardinals thatare not associated as closely
with the Vatican.
So a lot of these bishops whocould probably stumble through,
or these cardinals who canprobably stumble through their
Italian don't have a fluency init, and so you're searching for
okay, would English be more of afluency, would French be a
(29:56):
little bit more of a fluency, orSpanish, or something like that
.
That becomes a very complexmatter, and we'll see how that
plays out during this conclave.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Well, that's a wrap for another edition of Talking
Texas History.
We've been talking withBenedict Wynne, the Dean of
Students and Associate VicePresident, university of St
Thomas here in Houston.
He's a canon lawyer.
He also holds a degree inmusicology From the University
of Kansas, master of theologicalstudies From the University of
(30:26):
Dallas, also a degree in canonlaw From Catholic University of
America, juris Doctorate FromHamline University School of Law
and a doctor of ministry Inbiblical exposition From Neshota
House Theological Seminary.
So very good, very interestingdiscussion on popes, how they're
(30:46):
chosen, especially in light ofthe election of Robert Prevost.
Cardinal Prevost is now PopeLeo XIV and first United
States-born pope, second popefrom the Americas.
(31:07):
So it's going to be interesting, as we move on, looking at the
history, what this means.
We know that the Pope has rootsand family from the New Orleans
area as well as in Chicago, ofcourse.
So it's going to be interestingmoving forward.
So thanks a lot for listeningFor Scott Sosby, I'm Gene Preuss
.
This has been Talking TexasHistory.
We'll see you again soon.
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