July 24, 2025 • 34 mins
During the Feast of the Assumption on August 15, 1988, thousands gathered for an outdoor Mass in Lubbock where many reported seeing miraculous signs when the clouds parted and sunlight broke through. The apparition of the Virgin Mary drew 15,000 people to this West Texas church, yet it's a largely forgotten moment in Texas religious history.
In this episode, we discuss how the Catholic Church responds to claims of apparitions, establishing investigative commissions that examined the Lubbock event, and our conversation expands into why religious history matters for historians, "You can't understand American history if you don't understand Americans' religiosity."
Whether you're fascinated by religious phenomena, Texas cultural history, or the methods historians use to understand seemingly supernatural events, this episode offers a window into how faith and skepticism coexist in both religious institutions and historical inquiry.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
(00:02):
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosby and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
I'm Gene Preuss, I'm ScottSosby, gene.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
As we're recording this, catholics are in the news.
We see a lot of headlines aboutthe Vatican and various other
things about Catholicism in thenews today, but you have
something that's somewhatrelated.
It's a new research project orsomething that you've been
working on.
And what is that?
It is a new research projectthat some of you have been
working on.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
And what is that?
Well, you're right, this was aproject.
I kind of unveiled it publiclywhen we were at the West Texas
this year, in San Angelo, august1988, there was around August
(01:26):
15th, which is the Catholicshave the feast, the celebration,
the commemoration of theAssumption of Mary, and this is
when Catholics believe that Marywas assumed bodily into heaven.
She did not die and buried onthe earth, and there's a reason
(01:48):
they believe this.
And so there was a lot servicebecause there were so many
(02:10):
people there that they couldn'tfit them all into the church.
So outside and there was, itwas a hot day, right, it's
August in Lubbock and it's hot,and people were outside and
there were clouds covering thesun and at the time of the
service the clouds broke open,the sun shone forth and many
(02:34):
people started taking this as asign, as a divine revelation,
and that some people said theysaw the Virgin Mary, an
apparition of the Virgin Marythere, and so that became news
and a lot of people talked aboutit.
(02:56):
It got national, it gotinternational recognition for a
while, and so I wanted to talkabout that and I wanted to talk
about the history of that event.
I wasn't in West Texas, inLubbock in 1988.
I didn't come for another, Iguess 93, so another four or
five years.
I was in graduate school in SanMarcos at the time, working on
(03:21):
my master's degree at TexasState what was in Southwest
Texas.
But I think I heard about thisand the funny thing was is that
I didn't really know much aboutit until I was trying to think
(03:41):
about what they call the LubbockLights Miracle and I was Google
searching this and trying tofigure out when that happened.
And that was the 1950s whenpeople thought they saw a UFO in
Lubbock Sky.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
A lot of drunk people in Lubbock.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So I started doing Miracle.
I couldn't remember what thename was, what they call it
miracle law book, and I cameacross this apparition, um, and
I was watching a videodocumentary on it, and my
mother-in-law who's uh, fromlevel land out in the west area.
(04:23):
She says, oh, we went to that,she remembered it, and so she
and my sister-in-law had gone.
Mary didn't go because Mary was, like, I think, 12 years old at
the time and stayed at home.
But we talked to John Brock,our good friend John Brock, with
Texas Tech University Press.
(04:44):
I was talking to him.
He goes oh, I remember going tothat, we went to see that.
It was a thing that a lot ofpeople I think they had
somewhere several thousandpeople, maybe 10,000, 15,000
people who showed up.
It was a big deal, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I could In 1988, I would have, you know, I was 1988
, I would have been living inMidland, going between different
places, doing other things, butI seem to recall at least some
news coverage of that and suchlike that.
I mean, you know 1988, I wasstill fairly young so I wasn't
really tuned into a lot ofthings going on, but I seem to
(05:26):
remember something like that andI remember something about it.
Tell me, as you research thisand things you go on this and
it's good about it and you gotengaged with that.
Just tell me a little bit aboutthe whole.
You know, the Catholic Churchhas always you know, I'm very
ignorant of this, You're notalways.
You know, I'm very ignorant ofthis, You're not.
The Catholic Church has alwaysthere's been some mysticism, you
(05:47):
know, and apparitions have beena part of, to some extent, the
theology, I guess, of theCatholic Church.
What is it?
Why do people believe?
Why do Catholics believe inthese apparitions?
I mean, what is the doctrinalpart of it behind it?
And the saints, and even, youknow, some people have
supposedly seen jesus right, uh,in some scenes.
(06:09):
So tell me, just tell thereaders a little bit about and,
you know, inform us about howthat comes about well, you know,
it's kind of funny because alot of times that you know
people care about oh gosh, uh.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I remember, around the same time, you know,
somebody said I've opened up mybag of Cheetos and I found Jesus
in the toast that we heard onetime.
Jesus in the toast or thetortilla or on a tree, and
there's something you know.
So so look a lot of this andthis is this is a great question
(06:44):
.
So look a lot of this and thisis a great question.
A lot of this really, theChurch doesn't endorse or
espouse or believe in.
But there's a lot of right, aGod, and that God does
(07:09):
communicate and does intervenein the lives of people right
Otherwise we wouldn't havecelebrated Easter, otherwise,
you know, we wouldn't havecreation.
So the church certainlybelieves that.
But the church is also veryskeptical and the church
actually has a long history ofbeing skeptical about these
(07:31):
so-called miracles and so-calledapparitions or visions.
And they like to go out andinvestigate them, you know,
because they don't want peoplebelieving in superstition or
mythology.
People say well, that's whatthe Catholic Church is all about
.
Well, you know, the CatholicChurch for over a thousand years
(07:53):
were the ones who had theuniversities and had the
scientists and had thephilosophers and had, you know,
they believe there's a strongtradition of reason and faith.
So when somebody says thatthere's an apparition, a divine
being or a ghost or whatever youwant to call, it appears the
(08:19):
church investigates gates andthey actually have.
They sent.
It's in canon law, it's in thechurch law of how they set up
these commissions to go out andand really investigate and
interview people and figure outwhat's going on.
So, uh, that all being said,what what happened was, let me
give you a little background onon what goes on.
(08:40):
What's this?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
st john newman.
This St John Newman alwaysstrikes me.
I mean, I don't know, I haven'tbeen in Lubbock.
It's kind of a unique Catholicchurch in Lubbock.
Is that correct in that sense,I mean, or maybe different than
some of the others?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Certainly.
I mean I've driven by it ahundred times because it's right
on 114 going out to Levelandand the Lubbock Loop, so you
know it's in a very heavilytraveled area.
But in 1988, or in the yearsleading up to that, it was not
(09:17):
much.
I mean, they had low membership.
They were always in arrears andin their bills and in their
donations apparently the pastorof the church at the time, the
priest of the church, josephJames, was always giving sermons
about.
You know, you guys need totithe, you need to, you know,
(09:40):
help support the church becausethey were facing tough times and
there had been, I think, a lotof that.
If we look at American historythis is coming in as a historian
looking at it from a broaderpicture what's going on in
American history is that a lotof people had been in the 80s,
were moving away from churches,and not just the Catholic Church
(10:02):
but a lot of churches inparticular, and so at the same
time there's a movement away,but then there's also the rise
of these megachurches, and thatreally is the 1980s, you know,
and these here in Texas we havea lot of these megachurches, and
so St John Newman was actuallydoing something a little
(10:25):
different and what James was.
They were charismatic.
Now people think well,catholics and charismatic, it's
like oil and water.
They don't mix this idea of thehealing and speaking in tongues
and other Pentecostal-typepractices that were popular.
(10:50):
They had gotten popularity inthe late 60s, especially among
youth groups, and that was kindof exploding in the American
mainstream Christiandenominations.
And in the 1980s I worked at a,and probably one of the reasons
(11:13):
why I remember hearing aboutthis is I worked at a Christian
radio station in Austin andthat's kind of how I paid my way
through my undergraduate yearsin college.
That's kind of how I paid myway through my undergraduate
years in college At a Christianradio station.
What they used to call a dollar, a holler.
As long as you had some moneyand you could buy some time, you
(11:40):
could put your show on.
I heard a lot of differenttypes of people's religious
practices and charismaticmovement was growing in
popularity at that time and soit infiltrated the Catholic
Church and the Catholic Churchstarted adopting it.
And you know not everybody, andI know there were certainly some
(12:02):
Catholics who kind of lookedaskance at that.
So in that way St John Newmandid have—it was a little unusual
and there were apparitionsgoing on at the time the
most—and I'm going to butcherthis name Medjugorje in what's
now Bosnia-Herzegovina.
At the time, you know, therehad been reports and a lot of
(12:28):
people had been flocking thereLike they go to Lourdes or some
of the other traditionalapparition sites that the church
had actually investigated.
And the church says, yes, thisis a real apparition and we
believe that it was a divinemessage.
But they have not done thatwith Medjugorje, although there
(12:50):
had been a lot of people thathad gone there and it was very
popular in the 80s and in factthe priest out at St John
Newman's in 87, I think, hadmade a trip to Medjugorje and he
had said that of what was goingon in Lubbock is that Lubbock
would be the new Medjugorje ofthe US and what had happened was
(13:13):
1987, pope John Paul, verypopular right comes through
Texas and one of the things thathe does he was in San Antonio.
My aunt went out to the audiencethere, to the service there.
He had declared 1988 as a yearconsecrated to the Virgin Mary,
(13:38):
a Marian year, and this was.
He just wanted you know,devotion people to be more
attentive and you do moreprayers and more focused, and so
you had a lot of things goingon.
We're coming upon a newmillennium, communism is
(14:00):
starting to fall apart, sothere's unsettlement in the
world and so people are lookingfor answers.
And so the church believes thata lot of time, when people are
looking for answers, they tendto see things, they tend to read
more into things.
To see things, they tend toread more into things.
And this is why when somebodysays there's an apparition in a
(14:20):
time of crisis, they really goin and look and is this
something that we should putfaith into or not?
And so this is what happens.
In Lubbock.
People said they saw thismiracle of the sun and these
things that are traditionallyassociated with other
apparitions, that the churchsent an investigative team.
The local bishop, sheehan,michael Sheehan, called in for a
(14:45):
team and it was headed by apriest in Dallas who was
teaching at the theologicalseminary there.
His name was Frederick Jelly.
So the Jelly Commission verysweet came in and did an
investigation five members andthey said they were kind of up
in the air about it.
What had happened was in theyear before.
(15:07):
So all this is going on right.
So background so the yearbefore when the Pope in 87 calls
for a Marian year.
They start.
The members at St John Newmanand other parishes were doing
the same thing.
They start having these prayergroups where they're doing the
rosary and what happens is threepeople a woman named Mary,
(15:31):
constancio Mike Slate and TeresaWerner Constancio, mike Slate
and Teresa Werner started sayingthat they were receiving
messages during their prayertimes about renewal.
The church is going to be okay,especially John Newman, which
was always in trouble.
Right, they were going to beokay.
That trust in Jesus.
(15:54):
And so they started writingdown these messages that they
were getting and they startedbeing published and this started
spreading the news that Marywas talking to these people and
this increased.
Their prayer groups began togrow.
(16:15):
More people started coming tothe church and more and more
people got interested.
And so at a time when you startoff the year, where there's
maybe a couple hundred peoplecoming to Mass, and then on the
Feast of the Assumption of theVirgin Mary in mid-August,
(16:35):
you've got 15,000 people comingto this church.
You know things are happeningand people are starting to take
note, and so this is kind of theevents and kind of the
background.
Why does the Catholic Churchlook to Mary?
Well, to many in the Church.
Mary was one of the firstsaints of the church.
(16:57):
Right, she the mother of Jesus,the mother of God.
You know she appears severaltimes in the New Testament that
she's with him.
Now you know there's othertimes that maybe she's concerned
about what Jesus is doing, butshe's supportive.
(17:17):
She's there when he is executed, when he's crucified, and was
among the disciples who metafter he was resurrected and
comes back.
So was there to the end and theapostles took care of her until
she died, to the end, and theapostles took care of her until
(17:39):
she died.
But the Emperor Constantine,whose mother this is 300 years
later whose mother was an avidCatholic, and his son and
grandson, they wanted to collectall the saints' remains and
bury them in Constantinoplewhere he was the emperor.
And so they found a lot of theapostles' remains and bury them
in Constantinople where he wasthe emperor.
(17:59):
And so they found a lot of theapostles' remains and stuff
started bringing them toConstantinople.
But when they started lookingfor Mary's remains, they could
never find any.
And the researchers who weregoing out and looking came back
and they said well, the story isthat she disappeared, that she
was taken up into heaven, and sothat's where the assumption
comes from.
But it's because of the saint.
(18:21):
So the church, when it startsinvestigating, they want to make
sure that there's reason tobelieve, that it's not going to
hurt anybody's faith, or it'snot going to go against the
teachings of the church oragainst the Christianian beliefs
or traditions.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Um, and before they'll put a uh, a stamp of
approval on it so what is theofficial church stance on the
apparition in saint john newman,and how often do they stamp
such apparitions, perhaps aslegitimate that that's the right
word to use?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Surprisingly rarely, you know,you hear about like we were
talking about earlier, jokingabout earlier Jesus and the
Cheeto, jesus on the tortilla,the Virgin Mary, you know, here,
there and yonder Is that thechurch dismisses a lot of that
and they ignore it.
Here's the official churchteaching is that all the saints,
(19:22):
especially Mary, it's not aboutworshiping them.
And the church says we do notworship Mary.
A lot of people say well, youprayed, or something like this.
Well, because the churchbelieves that we are eternal
right, and so when we diephysically, our souls live on,
(19:44):
and so what we're doing, theysay, when we're praying to
saints, is that we're praying topeople who are their souls, are
around, and they're one of thethings that they do is they pray
for us, we pray to them, theypray for us and they're right
there sitting next to God.
So they have, you know, afirst-hand account there.
(20:09):
They have his ear and you knowwhat else are they doing.
But they so, but all thingshave to lead back to Jesus,
right?
Nothing can deviate.
They don't like new revelations.
Well, I know we've beenbelieving this for several
thousand years, but I was toldthis secret by Mary that you
(20:31):
know, whatever the church doesnot like that and the church
does not believe that.
So all things have to point andwhat they're saying is that if
this increases your devotion toJesus, to God, that's fine.
If it takes it away from it,then we get suspicious about it.
So that's how they judge thesethings.
(20:54):
How many people have seen it,what's happened and all this
other stuff?
So they come in and investigate, they look around, they try to
see what, what, how are peoplereacting to this, and if it
appears inconsistent with whatthe church teaches, they will
not approve it.
So here's what they said onthese messages, and I've got a
(21:17):
book in my hand here.
There's a book that has severalhundred of these messages.
And we have a little newspaperdownstairs that my mother-in-law
and my sister-in-law saved from1988.
It's like a little comm.
(21:38):
Commemorative of the apparition.
Yeah, from the Lubbock AJ.
That had a whole bunch of thesein them and this new book is a
little bit more complete.
But I mean, there were hundredsof them and there's just little
statements and most of them arejust saying pray more, do this,
encouraging people to increasetheir Christian devotion.
So the church said we don'tknow that this was a miracle,
(22:04):
but we don't think it's bad,it's right, it's all.
There were some that somepeople had some questions about.
There were a few of them thatpeople.
It seemed a little vengeful ormaybe we don't like, you know,
it didn't seem consistent withthe others.
So they, they, so we, you knowthese.
These are problematic, but forthe most part they were okay
(22:26):
there wasn't anything wrong withthem?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
If there were, like you mentioned, there at mass
afterwards after that, and we'regonna, 15,000 people showed up
at a mass and, you know, had tohold these things outside or
whatever, and has that carriedover at the church?
Do you know what has been theeffect on the church of this
(22:47):
apparition?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, you know, that's a good question.
That's something I really needto do a little bit more research
on.
I've kind of just started onthis and so I'm just looking at
the event and how the churchreacted to it.
But that's a good question.
I mean, the church is stillthere, right, it's still active.
But the official word becausethe Church said we don't think
these are miraculous the bishop,the guy who's in charge of the
(23:11):
Catholic Churches in that area,told the priest in charge of
that church, the pastor JosephJames, bishop Sheehan told him
you need to put a lid on this.
Right, it's not, there'snothing wrong with it, but it's
not official, it's not beenrecognized.
(23:32):
And so I don't know that.
There was another priest fromFrance, a theologian, who came
over and talks about this and hesays, well, he thought there
was some animosity, but I don'tknow.
And there's a somebody wrote alittle biography of the priest
Joseph James, and there'spictures of him and Sheehan
(23:54):
together afterwards.
So you know doing things withMary Consacio, one of the people
who got these messages.
So I don't know that the Idon't know that it was really
any animosity.
You know, in the Catholic Churchit's a hierarchy, right, the
bishop's in charge of the area.
The bishop says need to put alid on it.
A good and faithful priest willfollow the direction of his
(24:18):
superior right.
And so, okay, we're going to.
But in shallow water, there isa group made up of people who,
some of them who had receivedthese visions, and they're still
growing strong.
They have a ministry, they dolive streaming of prayer
services and whatnot, and sothey're still going.
(24:40):
They do retreats.
They're still going strong here.
How many years later?
40 years later?
So it's still ongoing.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Interesting and you'll do research into it,
you'll find out more.
We a friend of mine, a friend ofboth of ours I'm not going to
say his name because we bothknow him but it came up one time
when he and I were in graduateschool and he was Catholic.
It came up one time and he andI were in graduate school and he
was Catholic and he went tochurch at Christ the King there
in Lubbock, which is, I'massuming, one of the bigger
(25:11):
churches there in Lubbock, and Idon't know how this came up.
I just now remembered it cameup one time about hey, you know,
and I was being flippant, infact somebody at St John Newman
saw Mary one time.
I didn't know the details aboutit, and he made a comment to
the extent of, well, yeah, well,st John Newman's kind of a
(25:35):
weird place anyway, and it's adifferent kind of Catholic
church, and so that's why I'vealways kind of like, well, I
guess he's Catholic, he knowswhat he's talking about.
Do you think that's because ofthat event, or has it always
been held out as a differenttype of play?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Well, I think.
I mean I don't know whatthey're doing today, but I mean,
certainly this idea of thecharismatic would have set them
as being different fromtraditional Catholics.
I mean, you see this fightgoing on right now.
You know, I was watching thenews and you know, now that
Francis has passed on, peopleare saying well, when they elect
the new pope, is it going to bethe conservatives or is he
(26:12):
going to be more liberallyminded?
Is he going to be American aswell?
You know, and I'm glad peopleare interested, but you know,
things like the conclave or someof these other things, these
are works of fiction, right?
They're fictive works andpeople take them as well.
This is how it really works.
(26:33):
Well, it's not entirely true,is it?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
political In the Godfather 3,.
That's not how it actuallyworks.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Maybe, maybe there's more truth to that, but you know
, so it's hard to know.
I mean, nobody knows reallywhat goes on because it's a
closed door meeting and you knowwe hear reports and you know
there is, I mean, the cardinalsknow, and we've got, you know, a
(27:00):
Texas.
The former archbishop Cardinalhere in Houston, who just
retired at the end of March, isgoing to be there for the
conclave.
I mean, he, for all I know,could be the next pope.
You just don't know.
And it's how they vote.
(27:22):
They're try to be prayerfulabout it and try to figure out
who is going to be the bestrepresentative to lead the
church.
And yeah, I mean there's someconservatives, yes, there are
more traditionalists.
But let me tell you a littlesecret.
So, out of this charismaticmovement, you think, well,
(27:46):
you've got people like Benedict,who people see as being very
conservative.
You've got John Paul II, whopeople are seeing being more
liberal, more open-minded.
Both of their priests, right,and so the Pope goes to Mass too
, right, and there is a priestthat does the preaching they
selected.
In the preaching, the fellowwho did that was charismatic.
(28:13):
So you know, it's a big churchand there's different rites,
there's different practices,there's different beliefs.
So within that church, thereare factions right, there are
conservatives, there are moremoderates.
There are factions, right,there are conservatives, there
are more moderates, there areliberals.
There are different people wholike this type of practice,
(28:35):
other people who want to do theLatin mass, only want to do, you
know, the charismatic, thespeaking in tongues and the
healings, and so there's a lot.
It's a big church and a lot ofpeople find room.
And is there tension?
Well, there's not supposed tobe, but I'm sure there is.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Well, that brings up.
I think we can end with thiskind of more discussion, because
we're historians and such thisthing happened in Lubbock and
you're researching it andvarious things.
But why should we care?
We're historians, why do wecare about things like this?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
You know this is a great question and I'm going to
tell you I've actually beendoing or running across
religious history for a longtime and actually and I didn't
intend to, but when I startedyou know I'm an educational
historian looking at howeducation develops.
Education develops and the waywe see education kind of emerged
(29:31):
out of the 1830s movements, thereform movements and a lot of
that.
You know, whether you'retalking about how people were
treated in prisons or in mentalinstitutions, education, health
care, a lot of this isinfluenced by the Second Great
Awakening and abolitionism wasinfluenced by the Second Great
(29:57):
Awakening and these religiousmovements and revivals of the
1830s.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
And so yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah, so I started.
You see a lot of this influenceand tappans, and and and others
, and a lot of these people werereligious.
So I started looking atreligious history.
I had a, you know, moderateinterest in that.
I wasn't opposed to it, and soI would see these themes come up
from time to time.
But religion is a big part ofour American culture and our.
(30:32):
American past.
You know, Thomas Jeffersonwrote a version of the Bible.
Benjamin Franklin wrote somereligious tracts.
One of the signers of theDeclaration of Independence was
a Catholic bishop.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Somebody once said you can't understand the South
unless you understand pigs.
I would riff on that and sayyou can't understand American
history if you don't understandnot just religion in America
Americans' religiosity.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Right, right, and you know it's.
I think we tend.
You know, you and I are bothpolitical historians.
We were raised to look atthings from a political
perspective, but there's also areligious.
It's part of it's part of allcultures, it's part of all
history, and wars were far overit.
(31:23):
People were elevated topositions of authority because
of their religious beliefs, andreligion has played a role in
all world history and we tend todiscount it because we tend to
(31:43):
be more materialistic.
Right, we are looking atdocuments and evidence, and if
you can't prove it that way,then we don't like to talk about
it.
But, as you're saying, people'sreligiosity and how they
interact, their faith that'spart of American culture, and
not being trained as a culturalhistorian is something that I'm
(32:05):
looking into, right'm lookinginto right, and it is this the
idea of people's faith, people'sculture.
In fact, I, you know, about 10,15 years ago, I created a
course, uh, on religious history.
Now we got somebody who wasactually a religious historian
to teach that, but I taught itthe first couple of years, um,
and it was just.
I was amazed at how much I couldbring in other parts of
(32:29):
American history, because it'snot just people react to events
and they look at it from areligious perspective.
I picked up a course.
Somebody got sick at UHD and Ipicked up the course she was
teaching.
Got sick at UHD and I picked upthe course she was teaching and
(32:50):
she had this book looking atthe Civil War and how the Civil
War soldiers perceived it.
Right, both sides thought Godwas on their side and what did
they do when it turned out hewasn't and how did that affect
Americans on the Civil War?
And so you know, you see thisfaith, you see this culture.
There's a great book I use whenI'm teaching Mexican-American
(33:11):
history on the first Catholicchurch, spanish-speaking
Catholic church in Houston, inTexas historiography.
You know there's been a lot ofhistory of religion Carlos
Castaneda, castaneda Library.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
What's it?
Our Catholic Heritage.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Our Catholic.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Heritage, seven volumes, you know, and Almaraz,
felix Almaraz, did a lot of workon it.
There's a Texas CatholicHistorical Association and they
meet along with TSHA and othergroups and so there's a lot of
people who are looking and youknow we interviewed Brian
looking at religious, jewishreligious history.
(33:55):
So religion is something and weignore it and don't pay it much
attention, very much, but it'sa part of American life and
Texas life.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah, yeah, well, that's true.
Well, american life and Texaslife yeah, yeah, well, that's
true.
Well, gene, this has beenenlightening.
We don't get to talk aboutapparitions very often on
something like this.
I hope you go forward with this.
It'll be interesting to seewhat your final product, as you
research this, is.
Well, this is the second in arow that we've done that.
It's just us.
(34:25):
We didn't have guests, on whichpeople are probably like God.
These people need to go back toguests, so that means we've
already established that wedon't know anything.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
So I guess we just have to hear it.
Is that right?
That's right.
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you again soon.
Thanks everyone, Bye-bye.
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
(00:02):
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosby and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to another edition ofTalking Texas History.
I'm Gene Preuss, I'm ScottSosby, gene.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
As we're recording this, catholics are in the news.
We see a lot of headlines aboutthe Vatican and various other
things about Catholicism in thenews today, but you have
something that's somewhatrelated.
It's a new research project orsomething that you've been
working on.
And what is that?
It is a new research projectthat some of you have been
working on.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
And what is that?
Well, you're right, this was aproject.
I kind of unveiled it publiclywhen we were at the West Texas
this year, in San Angelo, august1988, there was around August
(01:26):
15th, which is the Catholicshave the feast, the celebration,
the commemoration of theAssumption of Mary, and this is
when Catholics believe that Marywas assumed bodily into heaven.
She did not die and buried onthe earth, and there's a reason
(01:48):
they believe this.
And so there was a lot servicebecause there were so many
(02:10):
people there that they couldn'tfit them all into the church.
So outside and there was, itwas a hot day, right, it's
August in Lubbock and it's hot,and people were outside and
there were clouds covering thesun and at the time of the
service the clouds broke open,the sun shone forth and many
(02:34):
people started taking this as asign, as a divine revelation,
and that some people said theysaw the Virgin Mary, an
apparition of the Virgin Marythere, and so that became news
and a lot of people talked aboutit.
(02:56):
It got national, it gotinternational recognition for a
while, and so I wanted to talkabout that and I wanted to talk
about the history of that event.
I wasn't in West Texas, inLubbock in 1988.
I didn't come for another, Iguess 93, so another four or
five years.
I was in graduate school in SanMarcos at the time, working on
(03:21):
my master's degree at TexasState what was in Southwest
Texas.
But I think I heard about thisand the funny thing was is that
I didn't really know much aboutit until I was trying to think
(03:41):
about what they call the LubbockLights Miracle and I was Google
searching this and trying tofigure out when that happened.
And that was the 1950s whenpeople thought they saw a UFO in
Lubbock Sky.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
A lot of drunk people in Lubbock.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So I started doing Miracle.
I couldn't remember what thename was, what they call it
miracle law book, and I cameacross this apparition, um, and
I was watching a videodocumentary on it, and my
mother-in-law who's uh, fromlevel land out in the west area.
(04:23):
She says, oh, we went to that,she remembered it, and so she
and my sister-in-law had gone.
Mary didn't go because Mary was, like, I think, 12 years old at
the time and stayed at home.
But we talked to John Brock,our good friend John Brock, with
Texas Tech University Press.
(04:44):
I was talking to him.
He goes oh, I remember going tothat, we went to see that.
It was a thing that a lot ofpeople I think they had
somewhere several thousandpeople, maybe 10,000, 15,000
people who showed up.
It was a big deal, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I could In 1988, I would have, you know, I was 1988
, I would have been living inMidland, going between different
places, doing other things, butI seem to recall at least some
news coverage of that and suchlike that.
I mean, you know 1988, I wasstill fairly young so I wasn't
really tuned into a lot ofthings going on, but I seem to
(05:26):
remember something like that andI remember something about it.
Tell me, as you research thisand things you go on this and
it's good about it and you gotengaged with that.
Just tell me a little bit aboutthe whole.
You know, the Catholic Churchhas always you know, I'm very
ignorant of this, You're notalways.
You know, I'm very ignorant ofthis, You're not.
The Catholic Church has alwaysthere's been some mysticism, you
(05:47):
know, and apparitions have beena part of, to some extent, the
theology, I guess, of theCatholic Church.
What is it?
Why do people believe?
Why do Catholics believe inthese apparitions?
I mean, what is the doctrinalpart of it behind it?
And the saints, and even, youknow, some people have
supposedly seen jesus right, uh,in some scenes.
(06:09):
So tell me, just tell thereaders a little bit about and,
you know, inform us about howthat comes about well, you know,
it's kind of funny because alot of times that you know
people care about oh gosh, uh.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I remember, around the same time, you know,
somebody said I've opened up mybag of Cheetos and I found Jesus
in the toast that we heard onetime.
Jesus in the toast or thetortilla or on a tree, and
there's something you know.
So so look a lot of this andthis is this is a great question
(06:44):
.
So look a lot of this and thisis a great question.
A lot of this really, theChurch doesn't endorse or
espouse or believe in.
But there's a lot of right, aGod, and that God does
(07:09):
communicate and does intervenein the lives of people right
Otherwise we wouldn't havecelebrated Easter, otherwise,
you know, we wouldn't havecreation.
So the church certainlybelieves that.
But the church is also veryskeptical and the church
actually has a long history ofbeing skeptical about these
(07:31):
so-called miracles and so-calledapparitions or visions.
And they like to go out andinvestigate them, you know,
because they don't want peoplebelieving in superstition or
mythology.
People say well, that's whatthe Catholic Church is all about
.
Well, you know, the CatholicChurch for over a thousand years
(07:53):
were the ones who had theuniversities and had the
scientists and had thephilosophers and had, you know,
they believe there's a strongtradition of reason and faith.
So when somebody says thatthere's an apparition, a divine
being or a ghost or whatever youwant to call, it appears the
(08:19):
church investigates gates andthey actually have.
They sent.
It's in canon law, it's in thechurch law of how they set up
these commissions to go out andand really investigate and
interview people and figure outwhat's going on.
So, uh, that all being said,what what happened was, let me
give you a little background onon what goes on.
(08:40):
What's this?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
st john newman.
This St John Newman alwaysstrikes me.
I mean, I don't know, I haven'tbeen in Lubbock.
It's kind of a unique Catholicchurch in Lubbock.
Is that correct in that sense,I mean, or maybe different than
some of the others?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Certainly.
I mean I've driven by it ahundred times because it's right
on 114 going out to Levelandand the Lubbock Loop, so you
know it's in a very heavilytraveled area.
But in 1988, or in the yearsleading up to that, it was not
(09:17):
much.
I mean, they had low membership.
They were always in arrears andin their bills and in their
donations apparently the pastorof the church at the time, the
priest of the church, josephJames, was always giving sermons
about.
You know, you guys need totithe, you need to, you know,
(09:40):
help support the church becausethey were facing tough times and
there had been, I think, a lotof that.
If we look at American historythis is coming in as a historian
looking at it from a broaderpicture what's going on in
American history is that a lotof people had been in the 80s,
were moving away from churches,and not just the Catholic Church
(10:02):
but a lot of churches inparticular, and so at the same
time there's a movement away,but then there's also the rise
of these megachurches, and thatreally is the 1980s, you know,
and these here in Texas we havea lot of these megachurches, and
so St John Newman was actuallydoing something a little
(10:25):
different and what James was.
They were charismatic.
Now people think well,catholics and charismatic, it's
like oil and water.
They don't mix this idea of thehealing and speaking in tongues
and other Pentecostal-typepractices that were popular.
(10:50):
They had gotten popularity inthe late 60s, especially among
youth groups, and that was kindof exploding in the American
mainstream Christiandenominations.
And in the 1980s I worked at a,and probably one of the reasons
(11:13):
why I remember hearing aboutthis is I worked at a Christian
radio station in Austin andthat's kind of how I paid my way
through my undergraduate yearsin college.
That's kind of how I paid myway through my undergraduate
years in college At a Christianradio station.
What they used to call a dollar, a holler.
As long as you had some moneyand you could buy some time, you
(11:40):
could put your show on.
I heard a lot of differenttypes of people's religious
practices and charismaticmovement was growing in
popularity at that time and soit infiltrated the Catholic
Church and the Catholic Churchstarted adopting it.
And you know not everybody, andI know there were certainly some
(12:02):
Catholics who kind of lookedaskance at that.
So in that way St John Newmandid have—it was a little unusual
and there were apparitionsgoing on at the time the
most—and I'm going to butcherthis name Medjugorje in what's
now Bosnia-Herzegovina.
At the time, you know, therehad been reports and a lot of
(12:28):
people had been flocking thereLike they go to Lourdes or some
of the other traditionalapparition sites that the church
had actually investigated.
And the church says, yes, thisis a real apparition and we
believe that it was a divinemessage.
But they have not done thatwith Medjugorje, although there
(12:50):
had been a lot of people thathad gone there and it was very
popular in the 80s and in factthe priest out at St John
Newman's in 87, I think, hadmade a trip to Medjugorje and he
had said that of what was goingon in Lubbock is that Lubbock
would be the new Medjugorje ofthe US and what had happened was
(13:13):
1987, pope John Paul, verypopular right comes through
Texas and one of the things thathe does he was in San Antonio.
My aunt went out to the audiencethere, to the service there.
He had declared 1988 as a yearconsecrated to the Virgin Mary,
(13:38):
a Marian year, and this was.
He just wanted you know,devotion people to be more
attentive and you do moreprayers and more focused, and so
you had a lot of things goingon.
We're coming upon a newmillennium, communism is
(14:00):
starting to fall apart, sothere's unsettlement in the
world and so people are lookingfor answers.
And so the church believes thata lot of time, when people are
looking for answers, they tendto see things, they tend to read
more into things.
To see things, they tend toread more into things.
And this is why when somebodysays there's an apparition in a
(14:20):
time of crisis, they really goin and look and is this
something that we should putfaith into or not?
And so this is what happens.
In Lubbock.
People said they saw thismiracle of the sun and these
things that are traditionallyassociated with other
apparitions, that the churchsent an investigative team.
The local bishop, sheehan,michael Sheehan, called in for a
(14:45):
team and it was headed by apriest in Dallas who was
teaching at the theologicalseminary there.
His name was Frederick Jelly.
So the Jelly Commission verysweet came in and did an
investigation five members andthey said they were kind of up
in the air about it.
What had happened was in theyear before.
(15:07):
So all this is going on right.
So background so the yearbefore when the Pope in 87 calls
for a Marian year.
They start.
The members at St John Newmanand other parishes were doing
the same thing.
They start having these prayergroups where they're doing the
rosary and what happens is threepeople a woman named Mary,
(15:31):
constancio Mike Slate and TeresaWerner Constancio, mike Slate
and Teresa Werner started sayingthat they were receiving
messages during their prayertimes about renewal.
The church is going to be okay,especially John Newman, which
was always in trouble.
Right, they were going to beokay.
That trust in Jesus.
(15:54):
And so they started writingdown these messages that they
were getting and they startedbeing published and this started
spreading the news that Marywas talking to these people and
this increased.
Their prayer groups began togrow.
(16:15):
More people started coming tothe church and more and more
people got interested.
And so at a time when you startoff the year, where there's
maybe a couple hundred peoplecoming to Mass, and then on the
Feast of the Assumption of theVirgin Mary in mid-August,
(16:35):
you've got 15,000 people comingto this church.
You know things are happeningand people are starting to take
note, and so this is kind of theevents and kind of the
background.
Why does the Catholic Churchlook to Mary?
Well, to many in the Church.
Mary was one of the firstsaints of the church.
(16:57):
Right, she the mother of Jesus,the mother of God.
You know she appears severaltimes in the New Testament that
she's with him.
Now you know there's othertimes that maybe she's concerned
about what Jesus is doing, butshe's supportive.
(17:17):
She's there when he is executed, when he's crucified, and was
among the disciples who metafter he was resurrected and
comes back.
So was there to the end and theapostles took care of her until
she died, to the end, and theapostles took care of her until
(17:39):
she died.
But the Emperor Constantine,whose mother this is 300 years
later whose mother was an avidCatholic, and his son and
grandson, they wanted to collectall the saints' remains and
bury them in Constantinoplewhere he was the emperor.
And so they found a lot of theapostles' remains and bury them
in Constantinople where he wasthe emperor.
(17:59):
And so they found a lot of theapostles' remains and stuff
started bringing them toConstantinople.
But when they started lookingfor Mary's remains, they could
never find any.
And the researchers who weregoing out and looking came back
and they said well, the story isthat she disappeared, that she
was taken up into heaven, and sothat's where the assumption
comes from.
But it's because of the saint.
(18:21):
So the church, when it startsinvestigating, they want to make
sure that there's reason tobelieve, that it's not going to
hurt anybody's faith, or it'snot going to go against the
teachings of the church oragainst the Christianian beliefs
or traditions.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Um, and before they'll put a uh, a stamp of
approval on it so what is theofficial church stance on the
apparition in saint john newman,and how often do they stamp
such apparitions, perhaps aslegitimate that that's the right
word to use?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Surprisingly rarely, you know,you hear about like we were
talking about earlier, jokingabout earlier Jesus and the
Cheeto, jesus on the tortilla,the Virgin Mary, you know, here,
there and yonder Is that thechurch dismisses a lot of that
and they ignore it.
Here's the official churchteaching is that all the saints,
(19:22):
especially Mary, it's not aboutworshiping them.
And the church says we do notworship Mary.
A lot of people say well, youprayed, or something like this.
Well, because the churchbelieves that we are eternal
right, and so when we diephysically, our souls live on,
(19:44):
and so what we're doing, theysay, when we're praying to
saints, is that we're praying topeople who are their souls, are
around, and they're one of thethings that they do is they pray
for us, we pray to them, theypray for us and they're right
there sitting next to God.
So they have, you know, afirst-hand account there.
(20:09):
They have his ear and you knowwhat else are they doing.
But they so, but all thingshave to lead back to Jesus,
right?
Nothing can deviate.
They don't like new revelations.
Well, I know we've beenbelieving this for several
thousand years, but I was toldthis secret by Mary that you
(20:31):
know, whatever the church doesnot like that and the church
does not believe that.
So all things have to point andwhat they're saying is that if
this increases your devotion toJesus, to God, that's fine.
If it takes it away from it,then we get suspicious about it.
So that's how they judge thesethings.
(20:54):
How many people have seen it,what's happened and all this
other stuff?
So they come in and investigate, they look around, they try to
see what, what, how are peoplereacting to this, and if it
appears inconsistent with whatthe church teaches, they will
not approve it.
So here's what they said onthese messages, and I've got a
(21:17):
book in my hand here.
There's a book that has severalhundred of these messages.
And we have a little newspaperdownstairs that my mother-in-law
and my sister-in-law saved from1988.
It's like a little comm.
(21:38):
Commemorative of the apparition.
Yeah, from the Lubbock AJ.
That had a whole bunch of thesein them and this new book is a
little bit more complete.
But I mean, there were hundredsof them and there's just little
statements and most of them arejust saying pray more, do this,
encouraging people to increasetheir Christian devotion.
So the church said we don'tknow that this was a miracle,
(22:04):
but we don't think it's bad,it's right, it's all.
There were some that somepeople had some questions about.
There were a few of them thatpeople.
It seemed a little vengeful ormaybe we don't like, you know,
it didn't seem consistent withthe others.
So they, they, so we, you knowthese.
These are problematic, but forthe most part they were okay
(22:26):
there wasn't anything wrong withthem?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
If there were, like you mentioned, there at mass
afterwards after that, and we'regonna, 15,000 people showed up
at a mass and, you know, had tohold these things outside or
whatever, and has that carriedover at the church?
Do you know what has been theeffect on the church of this
(22:47):
apparition?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, you know, that's a good question.
That's something I really needto do a little bit more research
on.
I've kind of just started onthis and so I'm just looking at
the event and how the churchreacted to it.
But that's a good question.
I mean, the church is stillthere, right, it's still active.
But the official word becausethe Church said we don't think
these are miraculous the bishop,the guy who's in charge of the
(23:11):
Catholic Churches in that area,told the priest in charge of
that church, the pastor JosephJames, bishop Sheehan told him
you need to put a lid on this.
Right, it's not, there'snothing wrong with it, but it's
not official, it's not beenrecognized.
(23:32):
And so I don't know that.
There was another priest fromFrance, a theologian, who came
over and talks about this and hesays, well, he thought there
was some animosity, but I don'tknow.
And there's a somebody wrote alittle biography of the priest
Joseph James, and there'spictures of him and Sheehan
(23:54):
together afterwards.
So you know doing things withMary Consacio, one of the people
who got these messages.
So I don't know that the Idon't know that it was really
any animosity.
You know, in the Catholic Churchit's a hierarchy, right, the
bishop's in charge of the area.
The bishop says need to put alid on it.
A good and faithful priest willfollow the direction of his
(24:18):
superior right.
And so, okay, we're going to.
But in shallow water, there isa group made up of people who,
some of them who had receivedthese visions, and they're still
growing strong.
They have a ministry, they dolive streaming of prayer
services and whatnot, and sothey're still going.
(24:40):
They do retreats.
They're still going strong here.
How many years later?
40 years later?
So it's still ongoing.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Interesting and you'll do research into it,
you'll find out more.
We a friend of mine, a friend ofboth of ours I'm not going to
say his name because we bothknow him but it came up one time
when he and I were in graduateschool and he was Catholic.
It came up one time and he andI were in graduate school and he
was Catholic and he went tochurch at Christ the King there
in Lubbock, which is, I'massuming, one of the bigger
(25:11):
churches there in Lubbock, and Idon't know how this came up.
I just now remembered it cameup one time about hey, you know,
and I was being flippant, infact somebody at St John Newman
saw Mary one time.
I didn't know the details aboutit, and he made a comment to
the extent of, well, yeah, well,st John Newman's kind of a
(25:35):
weird place anyway, and it's adifferent kind of Catholic
church, and so that's why I'vealways kind of like, well, I
guess he's Catholic, he knowswhat he's talking about.
Do you think that's because ofthat event, or has it always
been held out as a differenttype of play?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Well, I think.
I mean I don't know whatthey're doing today, but I mean,
certainly this idea of thecharismatic would have set them
as being different fromtraditional Catholics.
I mean, you see this fightgoing on right now.
You know, I was watching thenews and you know, now that
Francis has passed on, peopleare saying well, when they elect
the new pope, is it going to bethe conservatives or is he
(26:12):
going to be more liberallyminded?
Is he going to be American aswell?
You know, and I'm glad peopleare interested, but you know,
things like the conclave or someof these other things, these
are works of fiction, right?
They're fictive works andpeople take them as well.
This is how it really works.
(26:33):
Well, it's not entirely true,is it?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
political In the Godfather 3,.
That's not how it actuallyworks.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Maybe, maybe there's more truth to that, but you know
, so it's hard to know.
I mean, nobody knows reallywhat goes on because it's a
closed door meeting and you knowwe hear reports and you know
there is, I mean, the cardinalsknow, and we've got, you know, a
(27:00):
Texas.
The former archbishop Cardinalhere in Houston, who just
retired at the end of March, isgoing to be there for the
conclave.
I mean, he, for all I know,could be the next pope.
You just don't know.
And it's how they vote.
(27:22):
They're try to be prayerfulabout it and try to figure out
who is going to be the bestrepresentative to lead the
church.
And yeah, I mean there's someconservatives, yes, there are
more traditionalists.
But let me tell you a littlesecret.
So, out of this charismaticmovement, you think, well,
(27:46):
you've got people like Benedict,who people see as being very
conservative.
You've got John Paul II, whopeople are seeing being more
liberal, more open-minded.
Both of their priests, right,and so the Pope goes to Mass too
, right, and there is a priestthat does the preaching they
selected.
In the preaching, the fellowwho did that was charismatic.
(28:13):
So you know, it's a big churchand there's different rites,
there's different practices,there's different beliefs.
So within that church, thereare factions right, there are
conservatives, there are moremoderates.
There are factions, right,there are conservatives, there
are more moderates, there areliberals.
There are different people wholike this type of practice,
(28:35):
other people who want to do theLatin mass, only want to do, you
know, the charismatic, thespeaking in tongues and the
healings, and so there's a lot.
It's a big church and a lot ofpeople find room.
And is there tension?
Well, there's not supposed tobe, but I'm sure there is.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Well, that brings up.
I think we can end with thiskind of more discussion, because
we're historians and such thisthing happened in Lubbock and
you're researching it andvarious things.
But why should we care?
We're historians, why do wecare about things like this?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
You know this is a great question and I'm going to
tell you I've actually beendoing or running across
religious history for a longtime and actually and I didn't
intend to, but when I startedyou know I'm an educational
historian looking at howeducation develops.
Education develops and the waywe see education kind of emerged
(29:31):
out of the 1830s movements, thereform movements and a lot of
that.
You know, whether you'retalking about how people were
treated in prisons or in mentalinstitutions, education, health
care, a lot of this isinfluenced by the Second Great
Awakening and abolitionism wasinfluenced by the Second Great
(29:57):
Awakening and these religiousmovements and revivals of the
1830s.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
And so yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah, so I started.
You see a lot of this influenceand tappans, and and and others
, and a lot of these people werereligious.
So I started looking atreligious history.
I had a, you know, moderateinterest in that.
I wasn't opposed to it, and soI would see these themes come up
from time to time.
But religion is a big part ofour American culture and our.
(30:32):
American past.
You know, Thomas Jeffersonwrote a version of the Bible.
Benjamin Franklin wrote somereligious tracts.
One of the signers of theDeclaration of Independence was
a Catholic bishop.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Somebody once said you can't understand the South
unless you understand pigs.
I would riff on that and sayyou can't understand American
history if you don't understandnot just religion in America
Americans' religiosity.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Right, right, and you know it's.
I think we tend.
You know, you and I are bothpolitical historians.
We were raised to look atthings from a political
perspective, but there's also areligious.
It's part of it's part of allcultures, it's part of all
history, and wars were far overit.
(31:23):
People were elevated topositions of authority because
of their religious beliefs, andreligion has played a role in
all world history and we tend todiscount it because we tend to
(31:43):
be more materialistic.
Right, we are looking atdocuments and evidence, and if
you can't prove it that way,then we don't like to talk about
it.
But, as you're saying, people'sreligiosity and how they
interact, their faith that'spart of American culture, and
not being trained as a culturalhistorian is something that I'm
(32:05):
looking into, right'm lookinginto right, and it is this the
idea of people's faith, people'sculture.
In fact, I, you know, about 10,15 years ago, I created a
course, uh, on religious history.
Now we got somebody who wasactually a religious historian
to teach that, but I taught itthe first couple of years, um,
and it was just.
I was amazed at how much I couldbring in other parts of
(32:29):
American history, because it'snot just people react to events
and they look at it from areligious perspective.
I picked up a course.
Somebody got sick at UHD and Ipicked up the course she was
teaching.
Got sick at UHD and I picked upthe course she was teaching and
(32:50):
she had this book looking atthe Civil War and how the Civil
War soldiers perceived it.
Right, both sides thought Godwas on their side and what did
they do when it turned out hewasn't and how did that affect
Americans on the Civil War?
And so you know, you see thisfaith, you see this culture.
There's a great book I use whenI'm teaching Mexican-American
(33:11):
history on the first Catholicchurch, spanish-speaking
Catholic church in Houston, inTexas historiography.
You know there's been a lot ofhistory of religion Carlos
Castaneda, castaneda Library.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
What's it?
Our Catholic Heritage.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Our Catholic.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Heritage, seven volumes, you know, and Almaraz,
felix Almaraz, did a lot of workon it.
There's a Texas CatholicHistorical Association and they
meet along with TSHA and othergroups and so there's a lot of
people who are looking and youknow we interviewed Brian
looking at religious, jewishreligious history.
(33:55):
So religion is something and weignore it and don't pay it much
attention, very much, but it'sa part of American life and
Texas life.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah, yeah, well, that's true.
Well, american life and Texaslife yeah, yeah, well, that's
true.
Well, gene, this has beenenlightening.
We don't get to talk aboutapparitions very often on
something like this.
I hope you go forward with this.
It'll be interesting to seewhat your final product, as you
research this, is.
Well, this is the second in arow that we've done that.
It's just us.
(34:25):
We didn't have guests, on whichpeople are probably like God.
These people need to go back toguests, so that means we've
already established that wedon't know anything.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
So I guess we just have to hear it.
Is that right?
That's right.
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you again soon.
Thanks everyone, Bye-bye.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.