June 4, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode, we talk with George Cooper, who founded the Texas New Deal Symposium. George explains how a small historical gathering has evolved into a vital 12-year tradition examining one of America's most transformative periods bringing together diverse scholars exploring everything from banking reforms to infrastructure projects that still shape Texas communities today. The engine of modern American government was built during the 1930s, and Texans were holding the wrenches.
This year's Texas New Deal Symposium will be held at Tarleton State University in Stephenville on Saturday, June 14, 2025. The Symposium will take place at the Joe W. Autry Agriculture Building in Room 113.
This year's event at Tarleton State University features presentations on contemporary preservation efforts for New Deal infrastructure, healthcare for freedmen as documented in WPA slave narratives, and Nazi hunting during the later New Deal years—demonstrating the era's remarkable breadth of influence.
The event is free of charge and lunch will be provided; however, registration is required.
For registration information, click on the East Texas Historical Association events page: https://etha.wildapricot.org/event-6164675
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
(00:02):
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosby and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to Talking TexasHistory.
I'm Gene Preuss.
I'm Scott Sonsby.
Scott, good afternoon, it'sgreat to see you again.
It is morning, but we'rerecording this so it could be
any time of the day.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
We just make up times , don't we?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We make up a lot of things, so time is the least of
them.
We've got a great friend ofours on here, somebody that I
can't even begin to think howlong we've known, george Cooper,
and it's great to have him onthe podcast.
George, welcome to Talking.
Texas History.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Thank you Good to be here, george.
You know you've done.
I mean we could say a lot ofthings about George folks and we
have and we have, and some ofthem we won't repeat on air, but
you know that's how it goes.
But I mean he's a historian, anauthor, an instructor,
(01:35):
curmudgeon, all kinds of thingsall rolled up into one.
But particularly today, what wewant George to talk to us about
more than then we'll get into alot of topics but most
particularly George'sinvolvement.
In fact, he is the grand poobahof the Texas New Deal Symposium.
He's the originator of it andit's about to hold its 12th
(02:01):
event in Stephenville atTarleton State University on
Saturday.
June the 14th is when it willtake place.
We will get this up and postedbefore that and everybody is
welcome.
But we want Gene.
I mean Gene, we don't want Geneto tell us anything we want
George to tell our audienceabout.
(02:24):
He is the originator.
So just give us a rundown onhow you conceived of the Texas
New Deal symposium and how thisevent has happened and what kind
of the process.
Take us way back to when itstarted.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Rather convoluted story convoluted story.
Back in 2011, I had done asymposium, chaired a symposium,
put it together down in VictoriaGene, you spoke there on the
Civil War.
I was kicking around the topicwith Charles Furlan, who was
(03:05):
really the brainpower behind allof this, about what to do the
next year and I had been talkingto a lot of people who wanted
to do something on the New Deal.
Charles was somewhat opposed toit so we never really got it
done down there.
But at the time I was also veryactive in the Historical
Association of New Mexico andone of the people I'd met there
(03:30):
and she later would come to anEast Texas meeting was Kathy
Plym, who at the time was thedirector of the National New
Deal Preservation Association,which is now based out of
Washington DC, but at the timeit was based out of Santa Fe and
(03:52):
Kathy was doing all the work.
Now Kathy's still going strong,but she's got to be well over
90.
So she's kind of passed thatoff.
But she and I got to talkingabout the New Deal when she was
down in Nacogdoches for ourmeeting in 2012.
And she said she would kind oflike to do some kind of regional
(04:14):
symposium and I said, I can getseveral people in Texas to show
up and I think I had about 15major historians lined up to go
to Santa Fe in August of 2013and get it done.
(04:37):
Kathy just couldn't get her acttogether.
Love her dearly, but shecouldn't get her act together.
We could never come up with anykind of venue for us to hold it
at.
So I fell through.
But, talking to people thatwanted to attend that and wanted
to present people like Lightand Victoria Cumming Scott, you
(05:00):
were interested, jean, I thinkyou were too were interested,
gene, I think you were too.
Finally, talking to people,someone came up and volunteered
Carol Taylor, I believe,volunteered the Audie Murphy
Cotton Museum in Greenville forus to hold a one-day event at.
(05:21):
To hold a one-day event at.
I very quickly put everythingtogether.
Carol and Scott and the peoplein Greenville made arrangements
so that there was noregistration fee and the museum,
(05:44):
I believe, fed us that day.
We had two sessions in themorning, three speakers each.
Then we had a featured speakerin the afternoon.
That particular day it wasLight Cummins.
Can't start off any better thanthat when you have light as your
(06:06):
featured speaker, who, asalways, spoke without notes off
the top of his head and went for30 minutes and was absolutely
fabulous.
The topic that he spoke on thatday has, in fact, now been
published in the Texas New DealReview, which is an online
journal published by Texas A&M,and it just kind of grew from
(06:31):
there.
We had not planned to haveanother one, but after the
session a bunch of us gatheredat Starbucks there in Greenville
and people got to saying they'dlike to do it again.
So we started scrambling, puttogether a program.
(06:52):
I was able to put together aprogram.
We were luckily able to haveHeron County Northwest Community
College yeah that's where JohnLumberg was at the time.
I think Lumberg's been at Southhe's at Tarrant County South but
(07:16):
George Diaz was the departmentchair up there then and he
arranged for us to meet therethe next year and it just kind
of snowballed like that.
Every year there's always beensomeone come up and ask to do
another one and I kind ofstarted pushing for an annual
(07:38):
event rather early on, actually,because I enjoyed putting the
thing together and I havelearned from experiences.
It's a whole lot easier tointroduce people than it is to
have to write something andpresent it.
So we just kind of keptsnowballing from there.
Brenda Matthews at TexasWesleyan volunteered a place for
(08:07):
the next year and hosted it thethird year and I think the
fourth year, I think was atTexas A&M Commerce.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, we probably went to Commerce then and we
went back to Greenville, I think, after that and we've been,
we're in Stephenville this yearand we're at Stephenville again.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Been to Wichita Falls .
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Been to Wichita Falls and had it in Wichita Falls.
I mean we start thinking aboutevery place.
We've had it and we'll misssome things, but it's been all.
We've been lucky, we've had itall over the place.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
You know, the thing about the New Deal is it's I'm
surprised we've had it all overthe place.
You know, the the thing aboutthe new deal is it's I I I'm
surprised.
We never had a new dealsymposium before, but it's
something that was sotremendously and I hate to use
this word impactful.
Uh changed texas so much duringthe 1930s.
It went from basically being anagricultural state to being an
(09:07):
industrial one during thatperiod and we're really
transitioning.
And yet and there's so muchgoing on so many of the leaders,
not just at the state level butat the national level, come out
of this period kind of aretrained and tested in their
(09:28):
leadership skills during thisperiod, that it really is
something we don't place, Ithink, enough emphasis on.
I mean, we look at thesuffering but we don't look at
all the other things that theNew Deal did and were done
through the New Deal in Texas.
So how did you get interestedin this topic?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
It all ties in with the symposium.
Really, in grad school I was animmigration historian.
I originally wrote a paper forthe South Texas Historical
Association on South Texaspoliticians in Washington DC
(10:23):
during the New Deal WashingtonDC during the New Deal.
Out of that developed a realinterest on my part in John Nass
Garner and his role in hisrelationship with Roosevelt,
(10:44):
which I think is fascinating.
But also I became very muchaware not just of the transition
(11:06):
economically in Texas duringthis period, but also the fact
that during this period from,say, 1930, with the election of
that year that put the Democratsback in control and Wurtzbach
leaving and being replaced byCongressman from Kingsville
Switching over to the DemocraticParty, john S Garner becoming
the Speaker of the House,democratic Party, john S Garner
(11:30):
becoming the Speaker of theHouse Between there and really
1940, texas goes from being justa bunch of backbenchers in
Congress to quite possibly themost powerful state in the
entire Congress.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
That's something that I don't think has been
emphasized amongst nationalhistorians as much as you say
how much, and we don't eventhink about how many Texans
played such big roles in the NewJersey, and these were young
congressmen that were makingthese big roles right.
Patman was what?
Barely 30, or something likethat when he became the powerful
(12:02):
banking chair.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Well, lyndon Johnson too, right.
I mean, and you're right,patman Kleberg King, that all
you know talking about SouthTexas people, all of those
people.
It really is amazing.
It was kind of this, you know,a geminating room where so many
(12:24):
people developed that wouldlater go on to be important in
not only Texas but the UShistory.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
A lot of, in addition to that, names we haven't
mentioned.
People came to seniority, cameto take over committees in both
the House and the Senate, cameto take over committees in both
the House and the Senate.
We had the role played byGarner leaving and going home
(12:52):
during the court packing planand the breach with Roosevelt
there.
But you also had Tom Connollyin the Senate saying that he was
going to make sure that thebill never got out of the Senate
sure that the bill never gotout of the Senate.
And, of course, the reaction inthe House Judiciary Committee
when it was killed by the chair,who just happened to be a Texan
(13:14):
in committee.
The importance of Texas, theoversized weight of Texas at
that point is really remarkableand the transition that most
people just, you're right,national politicians don't pay
enough attention to it.
That's what got me into the NewDeal and subsequent because of
(13:38):
Garner.
But to go back to your originalquestion, gene Garner, as I
started doing my research on him, I found out that he at one
point or another owned 13different banks in South Texas
and I got to looking intobanking because of that, the
state banking system.
And that's where my main focusis now and I've written a lot of
(13:59):
papers over the last couple ofyears on banking during the New
Deal tying the two in togetheryou know, as long as we're
talking about Garner, I've toldthis story many times.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
I guess I'll go on record.
I've heard it, gene's heard it,because I believe he may have
even been in the class that Iheard it.
One time One of our mentors andone of my primary mentors, don
Walker, loved to tell this storyabout John Nance Garner that he
had heard from one of hismentors at UT.
I believe it was Lewis Gouldoul, but I'm not sure as who was
(14:34):
the young person that went to gointerview garner in the
garnered already left.
You know he was either the like1960, 1961, something along
that.
He was living in uvalde andthis young researcher, when he
was young, went to, I believe agraduate student went to go
interview garner in uvalde andhe found him in the backyard in
(14:55):
his bermuda shorts and a t-shirtuh, you know the former vice
president of the united statesand speaker of the house of
representatives and they satoutside doing their, uh, his
interview, going back and forth,but finally, after it's in the
morning it's about 10 o'clock inthe morning garner slapped the
table real hard and he thought,boy, howdy, I've done something
wrong.
And uh, garner said son, areyou a drinking man and said,
(15:20):
well, I guess so.
So he went up to the to the uh,his porch area, got in a
refrigerator but it wasn't arefrigerator when he plugged in
and got a big bottle of Jim Beamand brought two water glasses
out and set them on the tableand he told him say when.
And you know, he poured himjust a little bit and he said,
okay, garner basically filledthat thing up and proceeded to
(15:41):
drink it in about three drinksafter that and they went on with
the interview and they hadlunch and then about one o'clock
they were still doing it andGarner said I think it's time
for another drink.
And so they did the same thing.
He got his little you know twofingers in his water glass and
garner basically filled thatthing up and started drinking it
.
And he was looking at him.
He said he must have beenwondering about what I was
(16:02):
thinking and said, uh, garnersaid son, you know why I've
lived so long?
No, sir, wait, I have three ofthese every day.
So there you go.
And so he was probably pickled,is what he was.
George.
Yes, that's right.
So we've been doing thatsymposia.
We always, always get it mixedup.
(16:24):
We've had some easy and Ishould keep track, but I'm
pretty sure this year is goingto be our 12th event, because we
had to miss uh one during thecovid year that we didn't hold
once.
We're about to hold our 12thnew deal event this year, so
we've had quite a few of thesethings we put in the can and I I
have been, I missed, I'vemissed one.
I missed when we were inabilene, I think three years ago
(16:45):
.
Uh so, but you must have hadfavorite things that have
happened during this, thesevarious symposia that we've had.
So tell us about some of them.
Either paper highlights thatyou had funny stories of people
you know.
Whatever, just some favoritething people might want to know
about the New Deal symposia.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
One that stands out in my mind and it doesn't
pertain to the papers, whichhave always been excellent was
the second one.
We had all gotten together atthe hotel bar, restaurant and
bar.
You were out playing golf andby the time you got in, most of
(17:29):
us were three sheets to the windalready.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Well lubricated.
We'll put it how about that?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
That's a good way to phrase it.
Yes, and we get to the campusthe next morning and apparently
no one had told maintenance thatwe were going to be there.
The building was locked up.
No one was around to unlock it.
I'm basically sliding down thewall because my head was
(17:55):
splitting.
I think it took us an hour toget in.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
We were at least an hour late getting started.
That's right.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
The weather at the year we were in Wichita Falls.
That storm blew in and abouthalf of the presenters couldn't
make it.
You had to read somebody'spaper.
I read somebody's paper, butoverall I will say this the
(18:33):
quality of the papers that havebeen presented, for the most
part, have been as good, if notbetter, than any I have heard
anywhere.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
I agree, that's one of the biggest things I mean and
that's the thing we say, butthere's why more work hasn't
been done.
And remember we are justdealing generally with Texas
topics in the New Deal.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
I mean, what I'm doing in this year is not just a
holy Texas topic, which may beone of the first times that
we've really gone outside thestate to do something.
It's kind of amazing thatthere's so much to do with the
New Deal in Texas and all ofthese things we hear every once
in a while.
We're like, oh, I never knewthat, I haven't heard that
before.
That's what's amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
But you know, it occurs to me that one of the
things that and this is look,you know, we've been Texas
historians for a long time.
Everybody always says Texas isvery provincial.
We just look inside ourselves.
In the New Deal we're reallylooking at national, even global
events right, the Depressionwas a global issue and how it
(19:42):
affects Texas, how it affectseven local areas and communities
.
And so we're taking a bignational, global topic, bringing
it home but also going back upright, going from the local back
to the nation, back to theglobal.
(20:03):
So it really is one of thoseareas, one of those times in
history where we can connect,one of those times in history
where we can connect Texas andlocal history and politics and
socioeconomic events to thebigger picture.
Right, and everybody always hassaid, you know, oh, texans
(20:29):
don't do that, but but we do.
In the New Deal time period,and maybe it's a model for other
periods as well, we can look atdoing the same thing.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
I think we have to take a look at it this way.
The New Deal also is soimportant in the transition
between the individual and thefederal government.
Prior to the New Deal,government was Austin, houston
(20:59):
City Council, harris Countygovernment.
It's only with the New Dealthat the individual starts
looking to the federalgovernment for aid relief, if
you will, guidance Governmentplaying a role in the life of
(21:24):
the individual that hadn't beenpart of the American concept
prior to the New Deal.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
No, and that may be the most important thing about
it, this whole idea of how itremade the orientation of how
people relate to the federalgovernment.
I've always said that I meanbefore Roosevelt and the New
Deal came on, it didn't matterwho was president.
You did not appeal to thepresident, to the federal
(21:52):
government, really, for, hey, weneed somebody to remake things
To some extent.
Of course Wilson, in theprogressive era, begins this
process.
You can trace it back to thatbecause he sort of had this
concept.
But then the 20s come along andit goes back to the.
You know, to borrow the phrase,I'm back to normalcy.
(22:14):
But the Great Depression itself, and then followed by World War
II, completely reorients thatdynamic.
But also because the New Deal,to some extent what Roosevelt,
particularly as a preview towhat I'm going to do this year
in his 1936 address to acceptthe nomination, essentially lays
(22:35):
out what I'll call an Americanrevolution.
We're now going to begin thisindividual strive for economic
liberty, if you will.
Before it was political libertythat was the basis of American
concept, if you will, of libertyand democracy.
Roosevelt basically says themost important thing is economic
(22:57):
liberty, that you are freeeconomically to make your own
choice and American policies aregoing to start reflecting that,
at least from this federallevel.
And that's one of these thingsthat I don't think, and that's
one of these things that I don'tthink I can't accurately say
has been missed, because thereare scholars who have done this
Tom Hartman's done it, dracauifrom Princeton's done it but
(23:21):
it's not broke out into themainstream American side to
actually understand what the NewDeal did, and that's one of the
geniuses of it.
I think this, our symposium,does that quite a bit.
I think one of the geniuses ofit.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I think this, our symposium, does that quite a bit
.
I think it's one of the bestthings it does.
Well, guys, let me ask you thisWe've got this new deal
symposium coming up on the 14th.
What are we looking forward tothere?
What are going to be some ofthe highlights?
Who's participating this year?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
we have.
Something I'm proud of is thatwe have not restricted ourselves
to purely academic historians.
We have a lot of independentscholars for lack of a better
term that have presented thisyear and we nor have we
(24:18):
restricted ourselves to purelythe timeframe of the New Deal.
There's factors that come intomaking the New Deal and impact
afterwards.
Our featured speaker this year,juliet George, is primarily a
newspaper person, independentwriter, but she's going to be
(24:42):
presenting on the fight tomaintain a built environment
that was created during the NewDeal.
The New Deal and what has goneon in Fort Worth with the
retaining wall that was builtduring the New Deal at one of
(25:05):
the schools there in Fort Worthand how that's going forward and
the fight that's had.
That's the kind of thing to mewhich is important is that, okay
, this New Deal isn't justsomething in amber that we take
out and look at as historians,but it's something that still
(25:27):
impacts us today and how itimpacts us, the interaction
between government, in this case, school districts in this
particular instance, and theindividual and those
preservationists, some of whomare not historians.
(25:47):
I think that's going to be, Ithink, important.
A fellow by the name of WilliamScott, who you all know because
he's finished his PhD at TexasTech, will be speaking on health
care for freedmen as reflectedin the slave narratives which,
(26:12):
of course, recorded for thosenon-historians, recorded by
historians through the WPAduring the New Deal.
Scott, of course, will bespeaking on one of his areas of
specialization, along withMichael Phillips, who will be
(26:35):
speaking about the chasing downof Nazis during the last part of
the New Deal in the early 1940s.
So there's a lot of varioustopics.
We don't really restrictourselves.
We're not restricting ourselvesthis year, but it does bring
home the general importance ofthe New Deal era in its entirety
(26:58):
, at least in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, it's a good lineup.
I mean, we've heard of allthese people that are coming,
and the thing about it is, ofcourse, one thing that we're
always.
Just, we're talking about thisyear's event.
One thing that I think we'realways proud of is that we don't
charge.
There's no charge for coming tothe event and you get fed.
We're going to have lunch foreverybody when you're there,
something we've always kept upas well to do that.
(27:22):
Well, so we've established that, even though I think we can
safely say you didn't intend forit to be I never would have
envisioned it but it's become anannual event.
In fact, it's become theprimary spring event for the
East Texas HistoricalAssociation by our board action.
So what's the future?
What are we going to do later?
Are we going to continue thisup?
What's some of the future?
(27:43):
How does it work?
How do you envision George'scontinuing in the future?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
You know, for a couple of years I really thought
we might be able to expand thisinto a two-day event.
I don't see that now.
I see, basically because of theway it's structured, because of
when we hold it in the summer,so more people are available,
can make it without disruptingtheir class schedules, I would
(28:09):
like to see it maintained as aone-day event, somewhat like
we're doing right now Somerefining maybe.
How much longer am I going tobe doing?
I don't know.
I turned 80 this year.
It may not be realistic for meto keep going.
However, we do have theindividual that I feel is a
(28:29):
grandfather of, godfather, ifyou will, of New Deal Studies in
Texas, keith Polano, who hasagreed to take over when I step
down.
So I don't see it ending.
I see it going as long as theassociation wants to sponsor it
and we can find facilities tohold it.
If we can find an institutionto fund it, as we do now, I
(28:55):
think we can keep going as longas we can.
Unfortunately, we do not have alot of New Deal historians
across the state or across thenation.
Really, it's kind of fallingout of favor.
Economic history in general,social history yes, but not
really focusing on the New Deal.
(29:16):
I think that's something weneed to do.
We have been lucky in that wehave been very broad in our
people that are participating,not just economic and social
historians, but people, colonialhistorians like the Cummings
(29:38):
people such as yourself, scottGene.
You've been there too.
So in the future I think Iwould like to see that continue,
incorporating as many differentviews of the New Deal and what
went on as possible.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
I think that's right.
If somebody was to ask me how Iwould like to see this, I think
I would echo George in that Ibelieve we've grown enough in
doing this If you look back onso many of them like as scholars
and we kind of do this.
Much of our work has been onthe first New Deal, those
emergency level things andthings that specifically tied to
(30:15):
the Depression.
But I've always maintained themost important aspects of
Roosevelt's reform program camewith the second New Deal, when
he began to essentiallyestablish what has become the
American welfare state.
I would like to see us beginfocusing more on that, and that
would take us in a more nationaldirection this whole concept of
(30:36):
how the New Deal essentiallyembedded itself and then
reshaped American ideas of howour economic system would work,
and then the blossoming of thatinto how essentially applying
New Deal principles to tacklingsocial and cultural issues in
the country, which is where thewicket got very sticky, to say
(30:57):
the least.
I'd like to see that begin tohappen more and more.
George and I have of coursediscussed and I think we can
tentatively say this, george, wedon't know that it's for sure,
but tentatively we very well maybe holding the symposium in
College Station next year.
That might be our goal to dothat.
Maybe we can go down there andsee if we can stir some Aggies
(31:18):
up.
Correct, it's always nice tostir Aggies up.
It's also like low-hangingfruit, because it's easy to do.
To use a common term, they'reheavily triggered or easily
triggered.
I suppose you can say theyalways are.
But yeah, I think it has agreat future.
I'm I'm always amazed at how, asGeorge has said, this concept
(31:43):
that when it began in 2013, wereally thought this was a one
shot thing.
We were going to do that thisone year, you know, and now
we're about to hold our 12th andthere's really no ending inside
.
You know, and now we're aboutto hold our 12th and there's
really no ending inside.
It's kind of really amazing andit's a tribute to you, george,
that you continue to work on it.
I think this can be your, touse that, not that we're trying
(32:04):
to make you go away yourgreatest legacy correct on how
this works.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I've enjoyed doing it .
It's turned into a labor oflove and it will continue to be
so as long as I'm capable.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
So what's the?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
most important thing?
Do you think that people oughtto know about that time period?
Things I think and I'vementioned both of them already
First is the transition in therelationship between the
individual and our government,and the second thing is the
increased role and theimportance of Texas that grew
(32:53):
out of the New Deal on thenational level.
Those are the two mostimportant things to me about all
of this.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yep, and I think those are, and that's what they
were doing.
We're getting that across sowell, George.
It's been a delightfulconversation, as always every
time we do one of these things,but particularly with people who
are so intellectuallystimulating.
We've come to the end of ourtime, but we end.
Every one of our segments hasbecome our tradition, If we can
have a tradition for this almostrandomly off the wall podcast
(33:26):
that we do on things, but thatwe end every show by asking our
guests for their pearl of wisdomor whatever they want to offer
us about anything in the worldthey want to, and particularly
from you.
I don't know that you're theoldest person.
I always have to jab Georgeabout this show that we've ever
had, but if not, you're prettydamn close.
So this might be the best oneof these questions we've ever
(33:50):
asked.
So, George Cooper, what do youknow?
Speaker 3 (33:54):
There's always more to learn.
That simple, it's that simple.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
It's a lifelong process.
That's correct.
Absolutely, it never ends.
Unfortunately, there's a wholelot of people that have stopped
learning and need to get thatback in again.
George, thank you so much forcoming with us, thank you,
George.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
It's been a great conversation.
Thanks for having me, guys.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
All right, well, thanks a lot and we'll catch
everybody else.
Thank you for listening.
We'll catch you next time.
Bye-bye, bye-bye.
This podcast is not sponsored by and does not
(00:02):
reflect the views of theinstitutions that employ us.
It is solely our thoughts andideas, based upon our
professional training and studyof the past.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Talking Texas History, the podcast that
explores Texas history beforeand beyond the Alamo.
Not only will we talk Texashistory, we'll visit with folks
who teach it, write it, supportit, and with some who've made it
and, of course, all of us wholive it and love it.
I'm Scott Sosby and I'm GenePreuss, and this is Talking
(00:36):
Texas History.
Welcome to Talking TexasHistory.
I'm Gene Preuss.
I'm Scott Sonsby.
Scott, good afternoon, it'sgreat to see you again.
It is morning, but we'rerecording this so it could be
any time of the day.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
We just make up times , don't we?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We make up a lot of things, so time is the least of
them.
We've got a great friend ofours on here, somebody that I
can't even begin to think howlong we've known, george Cooper,
and it's great to have him onthe podcast.
George, welcome to Talking.
Texas History.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Thank you Good to be here, george.
You know you've done.
I mean we could say a lot ofthings about George folks and we
have and we have, and some ofthem we won't repeat on air, but
you know that's how it goes.
But I mean he's a historian, anauthor, an instructor,
(01:35):
curmudgeon, all kinds of thingsall rolled up into one.
But particularly today, what wewant George to talk to us about
more than then we'll get into alot of topics but most
particularly George'sinvolvement.
In fact, he is the grand poobahof the Texas New Deal Symposium.
He's the originator of it andit's about to hold its 12th
(02:01):
event in Stephenville atTarleton State University on
Saturday.
June the 14th is when it willtake place.
We will get this up and postedbefore that and everybody is
welcome.
But we want Gene.
I mean Gene, we don't want Geneto tell us anything we want
George to tell our audienceabout.
(02:24):
He is the originator.
So just give us a rundown onhow you conceived of the Texas
New Deal symposium and how thisevent has happened and what kind
of the process.
Take us way back to when itstarted.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Rather convoluted story convoluted story.
Back in 2011, I had done asymposium, chaired a symposium,
put it together down in VictoriaGene, you spoke there on the
Civil War.
I was kicking around the topicwith Charles Furlan, who was
(03:05):
really the brainpower behind allof this, about what to do the
next year and I had been talkingto a lot of people who wanted
to do something on the New Deal.
Charles was somewhat opposed toit so we never really got it
done down there.
But at the time I was also veryactive in the Historical
Association of New Mexico andone of the people I'd met there
(03:30):
and she later would come to anEast Texas meeting was Kathy
Plym, who at the time was thedirector of the National New
Deal Preservation Association,which is now based out of
Washington DC, but at the timeit was based out of Santa Fe and
(03:52):
Kathy was doing all the work.
Now Kathy's still going strong,but she's got to be well over
90.
So she's kind of passed thatoff.
But she and I got to talkingabout the New Deal when she was
down in Nacogdoches for ourmeeting in 2012.
And she said she would kind oflike to do some kind of regional
(04:14):
symposium and I said, I can getseveral people in Texas to show
up and I think I had about 15major historians lined up to go
to Santa Fe in August of 2013and get it done.
(04:37):
Kathy just couldn't get her acttogether.
Love her dearly, but shecouldn't get her act together.
We could never come up with anykind of venue for us to hold it
at.
So I fell through.
But, talking to people thatwanted to attend that and wanted
to present people like Lightand Victoria Cumming Scott, you
(05:00):
were interested, jean, I thinkyou were too were interested,
gene, I think you were too.
Finally, talking to people,someone came up and volunteered
Carol Taylor, I believe,volunteered the Audie Murphy
Cotton Museum in Greenville forus to hold a one-day event at.
(05:21):
To hold a one-day event at.
I very quickly put everythingtogether.
Carol and Scott and the peoplein Greenville made arrangements
so that there was noregistration fee and the museum,
(05:44):
I believe, fed us that day.
We had two sessions in themorning, three speakers each.
Then we had a featured speakerin the afternoon.
That particular day it wasLight Cummins.
Can't start off any better thanthat when you have light as your
(06:06):
featured speaker, who, asalways, spoke without notes off
the top of his head and went for30 minutes and was absolutely
fabulous.
The topic that he spoke on thatday has, in fact, now been
published in the Texas New DealReview, which is an online
journal published by Texas A&M,and it just kind of grew from
(06:31):
there.
We had not planned to haveanother one, but after the
session a bunch of us gatheredat Starbucks there in Greenville
and people got to saying they'dlike to do it again.
So we started scrambling, puttogether a program.
(06:52):
I was able to put together aprogram.
We were luckily able to haveHeron County Northwest Community
College yeah that's where JohnLumberg was at the time.
I think Lumberg's been at Southhe's at Tarrant County South but
(07:16):
George Diaz was the departmentchair up there then and he
arranged for us to meet therethe next year and it just kind
of snowballed like that.
Every year there's always beensomeone come up and ask to do
another one and I kind ofstarted pushing for an annual
(07:38):
event rather early on, actually,because I enjoyed putting the
thing together and I havelearned from experiences.
It's a whole lot easier tointroduce people than it is to
have to write something andpresent it.
So we just kind of keptsnowballing from there.
Brenda Matthews at TexasWesleyan volunteered a place for
(08:07):
the next year and hosted it thethird year and I think the
fourth year, I think was atTexas A&M Commerce.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, we probably went to Commerce then and we
went back to Greenville, I think, after that and we've been,
we're in Stephenville this yearand we're at Stephenville again.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Been to Wichita Falls .
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Been to Wichita Falls and had it in Wichita Falls.
I mean we start thinking aboutevery place.
We've had it and we'll misssome things, but it's been all.
We've been lucky, we've had itall over the place.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
You know, the thing about the New Deal is it's I'm
surprised we've had it all overthe place.
You know, the the thing aboutthe new deal is it's I I I'm
surprised.
We never had a new dealsymposium before, but it's
something that was sotremendously and I hate to use
this word impactful.
Uh changed texas so much duringthe 1930s.
It went from basically being anagricultural state to being an
(09:07):
industrial one during thatperiod and we're really
transitioning.
And yet and there's so muchgoing on so many of the leaders,
not just at the state level butat the national level, come out
of this period kind of aretrained and tested in their
(09:28):
leadership skills during thisperiod, that it really is
something we don't place, Ithink, enough emphasis on.
I mean, we look at thesuffering but we don't look at
all the other things that theNew Deal did and were done
through the New Deal in Texas.
So how did you get interestedin this topic?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
It all ties in with the symposium.
Really, in grad school I was animmigration historian.
I originally wrote a paper forthe South Texas Historical
Association on South Texaspoliticians in Washington DC
(10:23):
during the New Deal WashingtonDC during the New Deal.
Out of that developed a realinterest on my part in John Nass
Garner and his role in hisrelationship with Roosevelt,
(10:44):
which I think is fascinating.
But also I became very muchaware not just of the transition
(11:06):
economically in Texas duringthis period, but also the fact
that during this period from,say, 1930, with the election of
that year that put the Democratsback in control and Wurtzbach
leaving and being replaced byCongressman from Kingsville
Switching over to the DemocraticParty, john S Garner becoming
the Speaker of the House,democratic Party, john S Garner
(11:30):
becoming the Speaker of theHouse Between there and really
1940, texas goes from being justa bunch of backbenchers in
Congress to quite possibly themost powerful state in the
entire Congress.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
That's something that I don't think has been
emphasized amongst nationalhistorians as much as you say
how much, and we don't eventhink about how many Texans
played such big roles in the NewJersey, and these were young
congressmen that were makingthese big roles right.
Patman was what?
Barely 30, or something likethat when he became the powerful
(12:02):
banking chair.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Well, lyndon Johnson too, right.
I mean, and you're right,patman Kleberg King, that all
you know talking about SouthTexas people, all of those
people.
It really is amazing.
It was kind of this, you know,a geminating room where so many
(12:24):
people developed that wouldlater go on to be important in
not only Texas but the UShistory.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
A lot of, in addition to that, names we haven't
mentioned.
People came to seniority, cameto take over committees in both
the House and the Senate, cameto take over committees in both
the House and the Senate.
We had the role played byGarner leaving and going home
(12:52):
during the court packing planand the breach with Roosevelt
there.
But you also had Tom Connollyin the Senate saying that he was
going to make sure that thebill never got out of the Senate
sure that the bill never gotout of the Senate.
And, of course, the reaction inthe House Judiciary Committee
when it was killed by the chair,who just happened to be a Texan
(13:14):
in committee.
The importance of Texas, theoversized weight of Texas at
that point is really remarkableand the transition that most
people just, you're right,national politicians don't pay
enough attention to it.
That's what got me into the NewDeal and subsequent because of
(13:38):
Garner.
But to go back to your originalquestion, gene Garner, as I
started doing my research on him, I found out that he at one
point or another owned 13different banks in South Texas
and I got to looking intobanking because of that, the
state banking system.
And that's where my main focusis now and I've written a lot of
(13:59):
papers over the last couple ofyears on banking during the New
Deal tying the two in togetheryou know, as long as we're
talking about Garner, I've toldthis story many times.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
I guess I'll go on record.
I've heard it, gene's heard it,because I believe he may have
even been in the class that Iheard it.
One time One of our mentors andone of my primary mentors, don
Walker, loved to tell this storyabout John Nance Garner that he
had heard from one of hismentors at UT.
I believe it was Lewis Gouldoul, but I'm not sure as who was
(14:34):
the young person that went to gointerview garner in the
garnered already left.
You know he was either the like1960, 1961, something along
that.
He was living in uvalde andthis young researcher, when he
was young, went to, I believe agraduate student went to go
interview garner in uvalde andhe found him in the backyard in
(14:55):
his bermuda shorts and a t-shirtuh, you know the former vice
president of the united statesand speaker of the house of
representatives and they satoutside doing their, uh, his
interview, going back and forth,but finally, after it's in the
morning it's about 10 o'clock inthe morning garner slapped the
table real hard and he thought,boy, howdy, I've done something
wrong.
And uh, garner said son, areyou a drinking man and said,
(15:20):
well, I guess so.
So he went up to the to the uh,his porch area, got in a
refrigerator but it wasn't arefrigerator when he plugged in
and got a big bottle of Jim Beamand brought two water glasses
out and set them on the tableand he told him say when.
And you know, he poured himjust a little bit and he said,
okay, garner basically filledthat thing up and proceeded to
(15:41):
drink it in about three drinksafter that and they went on with
the interview and they hadlunch and then about one o'clock
they were still doing it andGarner said I think it's time
for another drink.
And so they did the same thing.
He got his little you know twofingers in his water glass and
garner basically filled thatthing up and started drinking it
.
And he was looking at him.
He said he must have beenwondering about what I was
(16:02):
thinking and said, uh, garnersaid son, you know why I've
lived so long?
No, sir, wait, I have three ofthese every day.
So there you go.
And so he was probably pickled,is what he was.
George.
Yes, that's right.
So we've been doing thatsymposia.
We always, always get it mixedup.
(16:24):
We've had some easy and Ishould keep track, but I'm
pretty sure this year is goingto be our 12th event, because we
had to miss uh one during thecovid year that we didn't hold
once.
We're about to hold our 12thnew deal event this year, so
we've had quite a few of thesethings we put in the can and I I
have been, I missed, I'vemissed one.
I missed when we were inabilene, I think three years ago
(16:45):
.
Uh so, but you must have hadfavorite things that have
happened during this, thesevarious symposia that we've had.
So tell us about some of them.
Either paper highlights thatyou had funny stories of people
you know.
Whatever, just some favoritething people might want to know
about the New Deal symposia.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
One that stands out in my mind and it doesn't
pertain to the papers, whichhave always been excellent was
the second one.
We had all gotten together atthe hotel bar, restaurant and
bar.
You were out playing golf andby the time you got in, most of
(17:29):
us were three sheets to the windalready.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Well lubricated.
We'll put it how about that?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
That's a good way to phrase it.
Yes, and we get to the campusthe next morning and apparently
no one had told maintenance thatwe were going to be there.
The building was locked up.
No one was around to unlock it.
I'm basically sliding down thewall because my head was
(17:55):
splitting.
I think it took us an hour toget in.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
We were at least an hour late getting started.
That's right.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
The weather at the year we were in Wichita Falls.
That storm blew in and abouthalf of the presenters couldn't
make it.
You had to read somebody'spaper.
I read somebody's paper, butoverall I will say this the
(18:33):
quality of the papers that havebeen presented, for the most
part, have been as good, if notbetter, than any I have heard
anywhere.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
I agree, that's one of the biggest things I mean and
that's the thing we say, butthere's why more work hasn't
been done.
And remember we are justdealing generally with Texas
topics in the New Deal.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
I mean, what I'm doing in this year is not just a
holy Texas topic, which may beone of the first times that
we've really gone outside thestate to do something.
It's kind of amazing thatthere's so much to do with the
New Deal in Texas and all ofthese things we hear every once
in a while.
We're like, oh, I never knewthat, I haven't heard that
before.
That's what's amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
But you know, it occurs to me that one of the
things that and this is look,you know, we've been Texas
historians for a long time.
Everybody always says Texas isvery provincial.
We just look inside ourselves.
In the New Deal we're reallylooking at national, even global
events right, the Depressionwas a global issue and how it
(19:42):
affects Texas, how it affectseven local areas and communities
.
And so we're taking a bignational, global topic, bringing
it home but also going back upright, going from the local back
to the nation, back to theglobal.
(20:03):
So it really is one of thoseareas, one of those times in
history where we can connect,one of those times in history
where we can connect Texas andlocal history and politics and
socioeconomic events to thebigger picture.
Right, and everybody always hassaid, you know, oh, texans
(20:29):
don't do that, but but we do.
In the New Deal time period,and maybe it's a model for other
periods as well, we can look atdoing the same thing.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
I think we have to take a look at it this way.
The New Deal also is soimportant in the transition
between the individual and thefederal government.
Prior to the New Deal,government was Austin, houston
(20:59):
City Council, harris Countygovernment.
It's only with the New Dealthat the individual starts
looking to the federalgovernment for aid relief, if
you will, guidance Governmentplaying a role in the life of
(21:24):
the individual that hadn't beenpart of the American concept
prior to the New Deal.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
No, and that may be the most important thing about
it, this whole idea of how itremade the orientation of how
people relate to the federalgovernment.
I've always said that I meanbefore Roosevelt and the New
Deal came on, it didn't matterwho was president.
You did not appeal to thepresident, to the federal
(21:52):
government, really, for, hey, weneed somebody to remake things
To some extent.
Of course Wilson, in theprogressive era, begins this
process.
You can trace it back to thatbecause he sort of had this
concept.
But then the 20s come along andit goes back to the.
You know, to borrow the phrase,I'm back to normalcy.
(22:14):
But the Great Depression itself, and then followed by World War
II, completely reorients thatdynamic.
But also because the New Deal,to some extent what Roosevelt,
particularly as a preview towhat I'm going to do this year
in his 1936 address to acceptthe nomination, essentially lays
(22:35):
out what I'll call an Americanrevolution.
We're now going to begin thisindividual strive for economic
liberty, if you will.
Before it was political libertythat was the basis of American
concept, if you will, of libertyand democracy.
Roosevelt basically says themost important thing is economic
(22:57):
liberty, that you are freeeconomically to make your own
choice and American policies aregoing to start reflecting that,
at least from this federallevel.
And that's one of these thingsthat I don't think, and that's
one of these things that I don'tthink I can't accurately say
has been missed, because thereare scholars who have done this
Tom Hartman's done it, dracauifrom Princeton's done it but
(23:21):
it's not broke out into themainstream American side to
actually understand what the NewDeal did, and that's one of the
geniuses of it.
I think this, our symposium,does that quite a bit.
I think one of the geniuses ofit.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I think this, our symposium, does that quite a bit
.
I think it's one of the bestthings it does.
Well, guys, let me ask you thisWe've got this new deal
symposium coming up on the 14th.
What are we looking forward tothere?
What are going to be some ofthe highlights?
Who's participating this year?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
we have.
Something I'm proud of is thatwe have not restricted ourselves
to purely academic historians.
We have a lot of independentscholars for lack of a better
term that have presented thisyear and we nor have we
(24:18):
restricted ourselves to purelythe timeframe of the New Deal.
There's factors that come intomaking the New Deal and impact
afterwards.
Our featured speaker this year,juliet George, is primarily a
newspaper person, independentwriter, but she's going to be
(24:42):
presenting on the fight tomaintain a built environment
that was created during the NewDeal.
The New Deal and what has goneon in Fort Worth with the
retaining wall that was builtduring the New Deal at one of
(25:05):
the schools there in Fort Worthand how that's going forward and
the fight that's had.
That's the kind of thing to mewhich is important is that, okay
, this New Deal isn't justsomething in amber that we take
out and look at as historians,but it's something that still
(25:27):
impacts us today and how itimpacts us, the interaction
between government, in this case, school districts in this
particular instance, and theindividual and those
preservationists, some of whomare not historians.
(25:47):
I think that's going to be, Ithink, important.
A fellow by the name of WilliamScott, who you all know because
he's finished his PhD at TexasTech, will be speaking on health
care for freedmen as reflectedin the slave narratives which,
(26:12):
of course, recorded for thosenon-historians, recorded by
historians through the WPAduring the New Deal.
Scott, of course, will bespeaking on one of his areas of
specialization, along withMichael Phillips, who will be
(26:35):
speaking about the chasing downof Nazis during the last part of
the New Deal in the early 1940s.
So there's a lot of varioustopics.
We don't really restrictourselves.
We're not restricting ourselvesthis year, but it does bring
home the general importance ofthe New Deal era in its entirety
(26:58):
, at least in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, it's a good lineup.
I mean, we've heard of allthese people that are coming,
and the thing about it is, ofcourse, one thing that we're
always.
Just, we're talking about thisyear's event.
One thing that I think we'realways proud of is that we don't
charge.
There's no charge for coming tothe event and you get fed.
We're going to have lunch foreverybody when you're there,
something we've always kept upas well to do that.
(27:22):
Well, so we've established that, even though I think we can
safely say you didn't intend forit to be I never would have
envisioned it but it's become anannual event.
In fact, it's become theprimary spring event for the
East Texas HistoricalAssociation by our board action.
So what's the future?
What are we going to do later?
Are we going to continue thisup?
What's some of the future?
(27:43):
How does it work?
How do you envision George'scontinuing in the future?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
You know, for a couple of years I really thought
we might be able to expand thisinto a two-day event.
I don't see that now.
I see, basically because of theway it's structured, because of
when we hold it in the summer,so more people are available,
can make it without disruptingtheir class schedules, I would
(28:09):
like to see it maintained as aone-day event, somewhat like
we're doing right now Somerefining maybe.
How much longer am I going tobe doing?
I don't know.
I turned 80 this year.
It may not be realistic for meto keep going.
However, we do have theindividual that I feel is a
(28:29):
grandfather of, godfather, ifyou will, of New Deal Studies in
Texas, keith Polano, who hasagreed to take over when I step
down.
So I don't see it ending.
I see it going as long as theassociation wants to sponsor it
and we can find facilities tohold it.
If we can find an institutionto fund it, as we do now, I
(28:55):
think we can keep going as longas we can.
Unfortunately, we do not have alot of New Deal historians
across the state or across thenation.
Really, it's kind of fallingout of favor.
Economic history in general,social history yes, but not
really focusing on the New Deal.
(29:16):
I think that's something weneed to do.
We have been lucky in that wehave been very broad in our
people that are participating,not just economic and social
historians, but people, colonialhistorians like the Cummings
(29:38):
people such as yourself, scottGene.
You've been there too.
So in the future I think Iwould like to see that continue,
incorporating as many differentviews of the New Deal and what
went on as possible.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
I think that's right.
If somebody was to ask me how Iwould like to see this, I think
I would echo George in that Ibelieve we've grown enough in
doing this If you look back onso many of them like as scholars
and we kind of do this.
Much of our work has been onthe first New Deal, those
emergency level things andthings that specifically tied to
(30:15):
the Depression.
But I've always maintained themost important aspects of
Roosevelt's reform program camewith the second New Deal, when
he began to essentiallyestablish what has become the
American welfare state.
I would like to see us beginfocusing more on that, and that
would take us in a more nationaldirection this whole concept of
(30:36):
how the New Deal essentiallyembedded itself and then
reshaped American ideas of howour economic system would work,
and then the blossoming of thatinto how essentially applying
New Deal principles to tacklingsocial and cultural issues in
the country, which is where thewicket got very sticky, to say
(30:57):
the least.
I'd like to see that begin tohappen more and more.
George and I have of coursediscussed and I think we can
tentatively say this, george, wedon't know that it's for sure,
but tentatively we very well maybe holding the symposium in
College Station next year.
That might be our goal to dothat.
Maybe we can go down there andsee if we can stir some Aggies
(31:18):
up.
Correct, it's always nice tostir Aggies up.
It's also like low-hangingfruit, because it's easy to do.
To use a common term, they'reheavily triggered or easily
triggered.
I suppose you can say theyalways are.
But yeah, I think it has agreat future.
I'm I'm always amazed at how, asGeorge has said, this concept
(31:43):
that when it began in 2013, wereally thought this was a one
shot thing.
We were going to do that thisone year, you know, and now
we're about to hold our 12th andthere's really no ending inside
.
You know, and now we're aboutto hold our 12th and there's
really no ending inside.
It's kind of really amazing andit's a tribute to you, george,
that you continue to work on it.
I think this can be your, touse that, not that we're trying
(32:04):
to make you go away yourgreatest legacy correct on how
this works.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I've enjoyed doing it .
It's turned into a labor oflove and it will continue to be
so as long as I'm capable.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
So what's the?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
most important thing?
Do you think that people oughtto know about that time period?
Things I think and I'vementioned both of them already
First is the transition in therelationship between the
individual and our government,and the second thing is the
increased role and theimportance of Texas that grew
(32:53):
out of the New Deal on thenational level.
Those are the two mostimportant things to me about all
of this.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yep, and I think those are, and that's what they
were doing.
We're getting that across sowell, George.
It's been a delightfulconversation, as always every
time we do one of these things,but particularly with people who
are so intellectuallystimulating.
We've come to the end of ourtime, but we end.
Every one of our segments hasbecome our tradition, If we can
have a tradition for this almostrandomly off the wall podcast
(33:26):
that we do on things, but thatwe end every show by asking our
guests for their pearl of wisdomor whatever they want to offer
us about anything in the worldthey want to, and particularly
from you.
I don't know that you're theoldest person.
I always have to jab Georgeabout this show that we've ever
had, but if not, you're prettydamn close.
So this might be the best oneof these questions we've ever
(33:50):
asked.
So, George Cooper, what do youknow?
Speaker 3 (33:54):
There's always more to learn.
That simple, it's that simple.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
It's a lifelong process.
That's correct.
Absolutely, it never ends.
Unfortunately, there's a wholelot of people that have stopped
learning and need to get thatback in again.
George, thank you so much forcoming with us, thank you,
George.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
It's been a great conversation.
Thanks for having me, guys.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
All right, well, thanks a lot and we'll catch
everybody else.
Thank you for listening.
We'll catch you next time.
Bye-bye, bye-bye.
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