Episode Transcript
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Jason Frazell (00:11):
Hey everybody, my
guest on the show today is Dr.
Mitch Kusy.
I want to start before Iintroduce Mitch, start by saying
how Mitch, how you ended up herewith me today, which is really
cool.
A few weeks ago, I was on acoaching call with a client and
she was telling me about howthey had this really great
speaker come to the organizationand talk about culture and
(00:34):
change and how to develop moreless toxicity in the workplace.
And I said, oh, that soundsreally interesting.
She said, yeah, you should checkhim out.
And I looked up and said, Oh, Iwant like to see if Dr.
Mitch Kusy would come to mypodcast.
And here we are a few weekslater.
So lovely.
Life works out that way.
So cool.
So Mitch, so good to have youhere today.
Mitch is an organizationalpsychologist.
He's a professor at AntiochUniversity.
He's the author of six books.
(00:54):
He's a leadership and culturalchange consultant.
And Mitch, I'm just so gladyou're here with us today.
Welcome.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (01:01):
Thank you,
Jason.
It's really a pleasure to behere.
It's a sort of serendipity allthese all these stars aligned
for us today Yeah,
Jason Frazell (01:08):
yeah, and also I
will say at a personal level
mitch lives in minneapolis.
He's in minneapolis right now Iwas there over the weekend and
he is almost neighbors with myparents, which is also really
cool like right right down thestreet Serendipity at his finest
so mitch, I think and so we'regoing to talk about mostly today
You About culture change in theworkforce and offsetting some of
(01:30):
the financial and emotionalcosts that companies deal with
based on culture in theworkplace.
And I won't even go into thelist of companies that you work
with, but it's a lot of them andyou help companies do this work.
So before we get into that, whatdo you think we as the audience,
myself in the audience, whatshould, well, should we know
about you before we could reallydig, dive deep into this topic?
Dr. Mitch Kusy (01:51):
Oh, that's
that's a great question.
Just a sort of some soundbites.
As you said, I'm anorganizational psychologist.
That doesn't mean I organizethings.
What it means is.
I go into organizations and helpthem assess the work culture and
what they want to do to improvethe work culture and what they
(02:12):
need to do to accentuate thestrengths of that work culture.
I do this in several vehicles.
One is I'm, as a professor,Yeah.
As you said, Antioch universityin the graduate school of
leadership and change.
And I work with PhD students,PhD students who are all working
(02:33):
leaders in their own right.
I also do this with anorganization called the healthy
workforce Institute, whosemantra is to eradicate
incivility and bullying in theworkplace to accentuate three
things.
And this is my, my mantra aswell increased personal
wellbeing, enhanced teamperformance, and improved
(02:57):
productivity in organizations.
So that's a little bit about me.
Jason Frazell (03:00):
Yeah.
Thanks Mitch.
I have so many questions aboutthis topic overall.
As somebody who has spent Let metell you one
Dr. Mitch Kusy (03:06):
thing.
I'll interrupt you for a secondwith all your questions.
I don't know what your questionsare, Jason, but I can tell you
if I'm at a cocktail party AndI'm standing there and someone
asks what I do.
If I, if I mentioned, I helporganizations deal with toxic
work cultures.
I can't go anywhere else.
I am stuck talking to thatperson.
(03:28):
You are stuck.
It's evasive.
Jason Frazell (03:32):
And then my also
guess is I'm, I would imagine
you've heard more times.
You could count.
Oh, Mitch, we need you in ourcompany.
So bad.
Yes, we need you.
So let's talk about.
Well, I'm going to give you myopinion on this, and I'm curious
your thoughts on this as we kickthis off, is any leader you talk
(03:56):
to will tell you, we want tohave a great culture, we want to
make sure people feel supported,we want people to feel like they
get, in some places, the wellbeing, the balance, all the
things.
Most leaders, they're justpeople like the rest of us, and
they want those in theirorganization and they understand
(04:16):
the value, yet when it comesdown to it and you talk to
people, most folks that I knowwould say that they don't, that
it doesn't land that way forthem in some way, shape or form
in most places.
So I'd love to start by framingout this problem framing out why
(04:37):
people like you do the work youdo, like what's needed.
Because to me, intellectually,we all get it yet.
There's a huge gap.
So what would you say is thebiggest thing in the way of a
great performing company?
and having the no more bullying,having people feel supported,
feeling the well being and alsohave the performance that they
(04:58):
need to perform for theirshareholders, for their
employees, and everything inbetween.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (05:04):
It's a great
question.
Let's take a step back and Iwant to talk about my research
study that I did with mycolleague, Dr.
Elizabeth Holloway.
And then we talk about thisresearch in my second to the
last book called ToxicWorkplace.
And I talk about it in my latestbook, why I don't work here
anymore.
And one of the startling thingsthat we discovered is that 94
(05:29):
percent of the 900 plus leadersin our study said they deal with
toxic work systems.
94 percent is it, it's reallyamazing.
And we'll talk about thedevastation that occurs as a
result of that, in and ofitself.
That's the quantitative data.
(05:49):
I want to share one piece ofqualitative data, and this was a
quote because we did a extensivesurvey along with extensive
interviews and one intervieweesaid the day this person left
our company is an annualholiday.
(06:09):
Yes, we can laugh at that.
And then when we hear the, whenwe go back from the comedy of
that, because it is, it is funnyand we've all felt that way, we
really understand thedevastation that's going on in
organizations.
And to answer your questiondirectly as to why, because
(06:31):
first of all, many people getaway with bad behavior.
All of us at times still knowhow to deal with it.
So that's bad.
One of the startling things thatwe found in our study, Dr.
Elizabeth Holloway and I wasthat the number one unsuccessful
strategy.
(06:52):
That people use is to give theindividual feedback about their
behavior.
Why I'm not saying feedbackisn't effective.
It's one of the most powerfulmeans.
However, feedback without asystem supporting that feedback
is, is going to be largelyineffective.
(07:13):
And when I talk about a systemback to this, what I said
earlier, why do people get awaywith bad behavior?
Because the organizationalconsequences.
If we had the organizationalconsequences positive in terms
of when people are doing reallywell and negative, when there's
(07:35):
toxic behaviors, if thosesystems were in place, feedback
would be far more effective.
Again, the number oneunsuccessful strategy that
people use is give themfeedback.
Jason Frazell (07:46):
So Mitch, I was
mentioning before the
conversation, before we pressrecord about a client I had this
morning.
I hear this all the time from myclients, is they get feedback on
something and then they ask forexamples or they ask for okay.
So I want, because most people,I hope this is your experience,
(08:07):
most people are good people.
They want to improve.
They want to be better.
They want to be betteremployees, better leaders, et
cetera.
And I hear this all the time isI've gotten this feedback, this
tough feedback for one reason oranother.
And then I asked for support tohave it be better and it's not
offered.
So they'll say, so for example,you need to be more relatable to
your employees.
(08:28):
Okay.
I T I received that feedback.
I would like to be morerelatable for my plagues.
How can you support me withthat?
I don't know.
We don't know.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (08:37):
That's a great
dilemma.
I would take a step back forjust a moment.
I'm going to put my psychologisthat on.
Please.
People don't know.
Many people don't know what itmeans to be relatable.
I hear this all the time islike, well, you shame people in
public or you shame peopleprivately.
What does that mean?
I mean, I don't know.
Yeah.
What so that in terms of goodfeedback.
(09:02):
What I believe is you need to beconcrete and behaviorally
specific.
So let's take the example thatyou use and let's take the
example of shaming.
Let's talk about relatable.
I would give that person thisfeedback that's giving the
feedback.
Don't say you're, you're notrelatable to people.
Or if you say that, say here arethe ways that I see that
(09:24):
demonstrated.
First of all you don't, youdon't greet people.
People are coming in and youjust immediately go to your
office without trying toestablish a relationship with
people first.
Relatable.
When you when you have a teamcome together, Do you take two
(09:50):
to three minutes to saysomething like, I'd like to ask
if anyone has a very supportivemessage the way this team has
been working and is there a waythat this team can improve more
effectively?
That's a relatable leader doingthat.
Yeah, love that Mitch.
Let's go to the other example ofshaming.
(10:11):
You shame people publicly or inprivate.
What does that mean?
Here's, here's a better way tosay this.
I noticed the last threemeetings, you've interrupted
people.
several times.
And I know you have so manyimportant things to say.
What's happening is when youinterrupt people, two things are
(10:34):
occurring.
People have less trust in you.
And secondly, you might discoverthat some of the things that
others are saying corroborateyour views.
And when you have thatcorroboration, you are going to
be more effective as aprofessional.
That's a different way ofproviding feedback in
(10:56):
complicated, really specificways.
Jason Frazell (10:58):
Yeah, it reminds
me a lot of the the SBI
framework, which I'm sure youknow the SBI framework is pretty
popular out there Just yes, andyou keep it flat.
This is what I noticed This iswhat I saw happen and it also
but it also gives you as theperson giving feedback It gives
you the autonomy to give somesubjectiveness.
This is a situation as I see itThis is how your behavior landed
(11:20):
for me or what I saw and this iswhat I believe the impact is And
then,
Dr. Mitch Kusy (11:24):
you know, it's
interesting.
I have a four step process forgiving feedback.
I'll share it shortly.
Yes, please.
One thing I think is reallyimportant is the power of the
pause.
So here's the four step process,intro behavior, impact, and
tossback intro.
Hey, I just noticed some thingsthat were going on at this
(11:46):
meeting.
When's a good time to talk withyou about intro behavior?
And they say, you know what, howabout we have coffee in 15
minutes, whatever it is,behavior exactly the way.
And you and I are talking aboutthat.
You described behavior inconcrete and behaviorally
specific terms.
So intro behavior and theimpact, the impact is.
(12:09):
People are listening to youless.
People are are not apt to trustyou as much.
So intro behavior, impact, andtossback.
I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Jason Frazell (12:21):
Yeah, I love
that, Mitch.
Yeah, because it allows them achance to process and they might
disagree, they might agree, theymight go, Oh, thank you, I had
no idea.
I hear that, no idea, and itgives, yeah.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (12:34):
And Jason, if
they disagree, what I talk
about, and I'm a negotiator, Isay, well, let's find one thing
of everything we've heard todaythat both of us can agree on.
And I talk about that as babysteps.
What are the first things thatwe need to do?
Jason Frazell (12:50):
Yeah.
Good coaching.
Yeah.
Put it back.
What do you think we should do?
I want to, I realized somethingMitch that I, I wanted to
address that I forgot to askabout.
I don't want to assume thateverybody listening knows what
we are talking about when yousay toxicity in the workplace.
So let's define that becausethat is a term that gets thrown
around all the time.
And my experience with it is.
(13:12):
is sometimes people will sayit's toxic because they don't
like the, they just don't likethe way they've been treated,
but it would not, I think othersfolks well, that's not toxic.
Or, you know, you work withhundreds of leaders in these
huge companies.
There may be a leader that goes,that's not toxic.
What are you talking about?
That's normal.
And somebody might, but it mightland as toxic.
So what are we talking aboutwhen we say toxicity in the
workplace in the way that yousee it?
Dr. Mitch Kusy (13:33):
Sure.
I want to answer that questiondirectly with something that not
only I, but Dr.
Renee Thompson and others at theHealthy Workforce Institute,
where I do a fair amount of workas a consultant.
We have three benchmarks oftoxic.
And it doesn't matter what youcall it.
Sometimes people call it toxic.
Sometimes people call itbullying.
(13:56):
There are three perspectives.
Is it targeted?
Jason Frazell (14:01):
Is
Dr. Mitch Kusy (14:01):
it harmful?
Is it repeated?
Targeted, harmful, repeated.
Targeted to an individual or toa group.
And when it's targeted to agroup, in the psychological
literature, it's called mobbing.
So it's targeted and it'sharmful.
And it doesn't matter if youdon't intend to do harm.
(14:22):
If someone perceives that asharmful, Then it is so targeted,
harmful, and repeated.
And the reason that repeated isso important is we've all had a
bad day.
Sure.
I might have said something toyou and I was uncivil to you and
we've all had those days, buthopefully it's not repeated.
(14:42):
So targeted, harmful, repeated,essentially they're
counterproductive work behaviorsthat get in the way of three
things, our own personalwellbeing, team performance.
And ultimately organizationalproductivity.
Jason Frazell (14:59):
Yeah.
And the financial and all of thefinancial consequences of that.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (15:04):
Indeed.
If one of the things that ourresearch discovered is that just
financially.
If an organization they'repaying$100 million for
compensation to individuals fordoing their jobs.
Mm-Hmm, So this is all levels inthe organization.
The compensation is a hundredmillion.
(15:27):
You know, someone's making50,000, someone's making
250,000, et cetera.
Use this as an example.
A hundred million, a minimum of6% is spent dealing with toxic
work cultures.
That's a minimum of 6, 000, 000.
Jason Frazell (15:48):
Yeah.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (15:49):
So when you
think about that and what
organizations are spending todeal with this and why does it
cost so much, Jason?
Well, it costs so much whensomeone leaves.
The cost of recruiting and whatwe know from the research is our
own research found that 51percent of individuals are
(16:10):
likely to leave the research byPearson and Porth found that 12
percent actually do.
So first of all, the cost ofrecruiting new people, the cost
of turnover the cost oftraining, new individuals,
opportunity costs, et cetera.
It's a minimum of 6%.
Okay.
So just financially alone, it'sexorbitant.
(16:33):
And if you look in healthcare,healthcare, the amount, not just
financial costs, but the cost ofpatient safety, when people
aren't communicating with eachother, bad things happen.
Jason Frazell (16:52):
Yeah,
Dr. Mitch Kusy (16:53):
in health care.
And we know that for example,there was a study of over 13,
000 patients and surgeons whohad more complaints from their
colleagues had 14.
3 percent higher complicationrates.
Jason Frazell (17:16):
Wow.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (17:17):
I know.
Wow.
It's right.
And when I first started readingthe literature and just
healthcare alone, the research,I always thought, you know,
patient safety and the patientexperience was a result of the
expertise of individuals.
And yes, sometimes it is.
It's also how we relate to eachother, but 14.
(17:38):
3 percent higher complicationrates for those surgeons that
had more colleague complaints.
Jason Frazell (17:47):
That's
Dr. Mitch Kusy (17:48):
Doesn't it make
you go wild?
Jason Frazell (17:50):
Yeah, wow.
And well, as, as a, as aconsumer of healthcare, just as
just the example of using, wewould have no idea.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (18:00):
No, no idea.
And that's why when I'm goingfor myself, To a physician or
provider, I want to make surethat I'm looking around, that,
you know, people are treatingeach other well, et cetera.
And I've actually said things tocompliment physicians and
(18:20):
nurses, et cetera.
I've also said things afterwardsto say, you know, you might want
to look at this because itimpacts the patient experience.
Jason Frazell (18:30):
Yeah.
And I know Mitch, that you spentsome time in healthcare, you
worked in healthcare for quite afew years.
Yes, I did.
So you have, you have real lifeexperience with this.
I want to, I want to ask aboutsomething that just struck me as
you were talking about the toxicand the three ways to know
whether we deem it as toxic andhow that might relate to
(18:54):
managing people out, performancemanagement, and that whole
topic, because.
My guess is this is my guess andyou would know from doing this
research if you've if you'vedone any research around this
Many people who've been managedout of a business for a variety
of reasons would say that itfelt toxic to them And my guess
(19:17):
it would have meet all three ofthose criteria in some ways good
in that case.
It is literally targeted It isgoing to be repeated, and I'm
just curious how you and thefield view that and how you
manage for, to performancewithout it feeling toxic to the
person receiving it.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (19:34):
Well, there's,
there's two responses that I
have to that.
First of all, in terms ofperformance management, Jason,
it's, it's really important thatyou're not just looking at
isolated.
Incidents and you're givingfeedback progressively along the
way.
So that's the first piece.
Secondly, and this gets back tounderstanding the system that
(19:58):
allows people to get away withbad behavior.
And in my book, why don't workhere anymore?
I have a tremendous array ofsystem strategies, but I want
to.
Take one that you talked aboutof managing people out, and that
is the exit interview thing thatI have discovered in my research
(20:19):
about the exit interview ispeople often don't tell the
truth.
Let's pretend the scenario isthat someone's had a bad boss.
And appropriately, the humanresource individual is the
person to conduct the exitinterview.
Sure.
And let's pretend that I've hada bad boss.
(20:42):
And you're interviewing me andyou're the HR person, you asked
about what my experience was andI say something like, well, you
know, it was a good experienceand the re and well, tell me why
you're leaving Mitch.
Well, the reason I'm leaving isI want a different kind of
experience.
I'm ready to move on to X, Y, Z,lie, lie, lie.
(21:05):
The reason I'm moving on is I'vehad this person that I would
call a toxic boss or a toxiccolleague.
I'm afraid to say anything.
The question is, why am I afraidto say this?
Because I'm leaving theorganization.
What I discovered in my researchis, I'm afraid to say it because
(21:29):
I worry that That perhaps thisindividual has tentacles in this
new organization.
I'm going to grab off me.
All right.
That's the bad news.
The good news is what should wedo about it?
I'm saying change the system ofexit interviews.
And this is what I suggest.
So you're the HR person and you,and you know that I'm leaving
(21:53):
and you're not here to talk meout of leaving, but you say
this, you know, Mitch I reallyvalue the kind of.
Professional you have been, andwhat I'd like to do is in three
to four months, may I contactyou and
Jason Frazell (22:10):
talk about
Dr. Mitch Kusy (22:10):
your experience
here?
And you could say somethinglike, you know, when the dust
settles and you, and, andtypically the individual will
say yes, and you'll get moreaccurate feedback.
And totally.
The HR person has a much greaterchance of getting accurate
(22:31):
information.
And secondly, they startcollecting themes and maybe
there's one individual thatpeople have left because of
that.
And you, you understand thatmore and you either try to coach
that person or maybe that personneeds to leave.
The bottom line is why are goodpeople leading organizations?
Jason Frazell (22:52):
Yeah.
And that, that's where I wantedto go.
Then that's your latest book isliterally titled for the
audience is why I don't workhere anymore.
So why is it that good peopleleave organizations and I will
take away, let's take away someof the, just, we know some of
the.
They just get a promotionsomewhere else that isn't
available internally.
So we take away the normal, thenormal flow of, you know,
(23:14):
business in 2024.
These are folks that believethey're paid fairly, the
benefits are good, and they likethe work they're doing, yet they
leave.
What are some reasons?
Why that happens.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (23:26):
Well, what we
discovered in this research is
one is that it's a toxic workculture targeted harmful
repeated.
Some examples are, you know, andpeople often don't realize
micromanaging can mean that it'sa toxic work culture.
You're not able to thrive, andit's targeted, harmful,
repeated.
So it could be that.
(23:46):
It could be that you are notallowed to engage in positive
ways outside of your ownimmediate team.
Clamps are put on you.
There are so many reasons forthis.
And and it often comes to powerand people having power and
wanting to engage that power fortheir own gratification could be
(24:11):
some narcissism.
You know, I don't know, butwhat's really important is.
It's not that important to knowwhy what's important to know is
this is what's happening rightnow.
How do I address this?
You know, it's interesting whenthe title of my book, why I
(24:34):
don't work here anymore.
This is my sixth book, as yousaid, a little comedy here.
And I had the book all written.
I have an agent for all of mybooks, the same agent.
And for some reason, shecouldn't find a publisher.
And all the people that haveread the book, publishers, or
maybe they just saw the title,the original title was No Work
(24:55):
Jerks Allowed.
And we couldn't find apublisher, and she said, I don't
know, they're all saying thisbook has been written.
I said, well, it hasn't, it'schock full of hard data, it's
chock full of actual evidencebased strategies.
I went and worked out one day atfive and I worked out at 5:00 AM
(25:18):
I came back from my workout andmy partner of 37 years, Scott.
I said to him, what was going onlast night?
You got up in the middle of thenight, writing, writing,
writing.
He said, I got the title of yourbook.
Jason Frazell (25:34):
Nice.
Really?
Dr. Mitch Kusy (25:35):
But I was trying
to be a good, good partner.
Good partner.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He said, the title of your bookshould be Why you don't work
here anymore.
I said, that's brilliant.
He goes, yeah.
I know I heard you talk on thephone.
I heard you in a podcast that,you know, 12 percent of
individuals leave toxic systems.
(25:57):
51 percent are likely 30.
7 percent of nurses knew someonewho left because of this.
Wow.
He's really listened to me.
And so I went and talked with myagent.
She says, that's brilliant.
Jason Frazell (26:12):
There it is.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (26:14):
And I said, it
is, and it wasn't my idea.
And by the end of the week, Ihad a publisher.
Morals of the lesson.
One is you can judge a book byits cover.
Totally.
Secondly, sometimes you shouldjust trust your partners.
Yeah, exactly.
Just might know something.
Jason Frazell (26:35):
They, yeah, they
just, I was going to say they
know something and they alsoknow you and they are going to
be able to spot.
They don't have your blindspots.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (26:45):
That's right.
Jason Frazell (26:46):
That's right.
And there, and I, and I'vetalked about this with other
guests on this podcast, becausewe're always going to be our own
worst critic, most of us all thetime.
And our partner is going to go,no, like this book answers that
question.
Why don't people work hereanymore?
You're like, I love that.
That's so cool.
Good on Scott.
Good.
We'll give a Scott, we'll giveScott's come back.
Like nice work, Scott.
(27:07):
Nice work, Scott.
So Mitch, I want to talk abouttwo other things here before we
wrap today.
I want to first.
address the, I'm going toaddress two groups of people
here.
And when I say two groups,they're, they're going to be
intermingled because it's not ahard line.
I want to first talk to all ofthose and get your expertise and
(27:27):
opinions on anybody listeninggoes, you know what?
I feel like I'm in a toxicworkplace or my relationship
with my boss or the person I sitnext to either toxic company.
Toxic boss, toxic peer, itdoesn't matter.
And they're going, man, thisresonates so much for me.
And I feel like I've been a partof this and I don't really know
(27:49):
what to do because I don't wantto leave, but I may have to.
So what would you say to that?
I want to talk with that personand I'll give you the second
type of person.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (27:57):
I'm going to
answer that.
Yeah, I do.
I want you, you hit on somethingthat many listeners and my own
clients ask, and they ask, firstof all, do you think I might be
toxic?
And by asking that question,there's good news here.
And the good news is this in myresearch study, I discovered
(28:20):
that most toxic individuals areclueless about the impact of
their behavior on others.
So if you ask that question, itmeans you've got the insight
about your behavior and you wantto know.
So that's the good news.
That's good.
Now, on a soft track,
Jason Frazell (28:38):
give me your
Dr. Mitch Kusy (28:39):
question one
more time, Jason.
No, Mitch.
Jason Frazell (28:40):
No, that, no,
that, that is good news.
They have the awareness to belike, oh, is this possible?
And I would, I would assert thatmost people at some point in
their career have probablyexhibited some form of toxic
behavior without it.
Relating to it that way.
And in, in your career and in mywork lifetime, this has also
(29:01):
shifted.
What used to be consideredcompletely normal behavior is
now considered completelyunacceptable behavior in some
places too, like, and you know,just the times have changed.
But my question, Mitch is let'suse this scenario.
We've got a listener who goes,Oh man, this resonates.
And they have a strong belief orfeeling either they're in a
toxic company, they have a toxicboss.
(29:24):
There's a peer that they feel istoxic.
They feel potentially bullied.
What would you say to thatperson in terms of, but well,
and, but they don't want toleave, but they don't want to
leave the company.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (29:36):
Yeah, that's the
question.
Here's what I would say.
First of all, never use the termtoxic or bully.
Don't use it when you're giving,this is sort of a, a label that
we use because it attractspeople and they, they get it.
But you never give feedback tosomeone.
And I would say never that youare you're, you're engaging in
(29:58):
toxic behavior, you're, you're,you're engaging in bullying
instead back to what we startedwith Jason described the
behavior in concrete andbehaviorally specific terms, the
past three weeks at meetings.
Every time I was speaking first,you interrupted me.
(30:20):
I also noticed that I'm not evenable to finish my sentences.
And so, and so you're providingvery concrete behavior, specific
feedback, and then back to thatmodel, intro behavior, impact,
and tossback.
So I'd like to talk with youabout this.
These are the, this is the,these are two or three behaviors
I'm noticing.
(30:41):
The impact is I'm shutting down.
I'm less apt to volunteer.
For assignments.
I'd like to hear your view.
So first of all, don't use theterm toxic or bullying and
remember the intro behavior,impact, and tossback.
Jason Frazell (31:00):
So Mitch, you did
something there that is a
powerful thing in likepsychology, therapy, counseling,
coaching, those modalities isthe whole thing you did there is
you owned your own experience.
My exactly, and that is such adifference from how this shows
up in really like, Hey, you'rebeing a bully.
You could argue that subjective.
(31:21):
Oh, this like my experience isthis, this is how it feels to me
and own.
It's a feeling and do that.
And there's such a differencethere between that and how it
goes.
So many times of even go to HR.
Hey, I feel like I'm beingbullied.
What do you mean?
Dr. Mitch Kusy (31:37):
Yeah.
You're, you're absolutely right.
That's, you could be a therapistwith, you could even start with
that.
I love that language that inthat intro piece, you could
start with that saying, youknow, I'm not saying I'm right
on this.
Something is bothering me and Iwant to talk with you about it
and give me two minutes to justshare this.
Then I'm going to, and then gothrough interview and then I'm
(31:58):
going to, I want to hear fromyou and to really let them know
you're hearing from them.
Take some notes.
The other thing that we say inthe healthy workforce Institute,
a strategy is a scriptedscripted time.
So intro behavior, impact andtossback, and you put down some
(32:19):
notes and you don't have tobring those notes with you, but
it's highly threatening thatthe, what you just shared to
talk with someone about it.
And you may need to script itand try it out.
With a colleague that you trust,if you're trying it out with a
colleague, try it, make sureit's a colleague you trust and
(32:44):
we'll give you good advice.
You don't want to try it outwith a colleague to say, ain't
it awful.
And one of the, one of the topbehaviors that we hear from
teams that are highly, if youwill, toxic is gossip.
Jason Frazell (33:04):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (33:06):
And one of the
strategies that we share to deal
with gossip is don't point yourfinger saying you shouldn't be
gossiping, your language wasgreat, take ownership, something
like this.
I know I've been part of talkingbehind this individual's back in
(33:27):
the past.
It doesn't feel good to me.
So in the future, I'm going toextract myself from these
conversations.
I love it so much.
Yeah.
Gossip is way up there.
Yeah.
Do we, and teams and everyonedoes it.
I do understand.
And the reason it's so it, itendures is it's, it's what's
(33:51):
called, um, secondary gain, man.
Look at the way she just talkedwith her boss right now.
We're licking, we're licking ourchops and, and, and, and, and
enjoying that at times.
And so that's the secondary gainwe have to extract her.
Jason Frazell (34:10):
Yeah.
I'm curious from a psychologicalperspective is a lot of the, the
gossip, it feels good in themoment, but doesn't it also
validate our ability to beright?
It's like, Oh, I believe that.
I believe that Mitch is.
I believe that Mitch is kind ofa bully at work.
Let's go talk about Mitch.
And then like, Oh, I think he istoo.
And you're like, yes, I'm likefrom an ego.
(34:31):
Yeah.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (34:32):
You know, it's,
it's in psychological language.
It's called cognitivedissonance.
Every notice when when you'reabout to buy a car and then you
buy the car, whatever the makeis, and then people will seek
people.
Who have a similar car saying,you know what?
This is the best car.
Oh God.
Yes.
You won't see someone that'sgoing to give you different
(34:54):
advice and that's calledcognitive dissonance.
Figure out a way cognitively todeal with our dissonance to make
a right decision.
Jason Frazell (35:03):
Yeah, that's
brilliant.
That, that the second group Iwant to, and there's so many
groups I want to talk to, butthe one that really hit me here
is the leader of people.
So we're talking about a peopleleader now.
Doesn't really matter.
There's their scope or scale,just somebody who has direct
impact on the culture of a teamwho's sitting here going.
(35:25):
I am so committed to not havingthis on my team, but I just know
that this happens at thecompany.
I know I'm in a company wherethis is a normal behavior, we
see our executives doing it, andI'm committed to something
different for my team.
In other words, You have to kindof like stop the buck has to
stop with that leader on theirteam.
And we're also going to talkabout ideal state where these
(35:47):
teams don't interact with otherteams that have this behavior
and they just get to do it.
But what would you, and I'm sureyou do this work all the time.
How can leaders of people ownthis for their folks
specifically?
And what are some tangiblethings that you work with
leaders on to go, Hey, I hearyour commitment.
Like if it was me, I hear yourcommitment.
(36:07):
Here's some tangible strategies.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (36:09):
Yeah, one top
strategy at a team meeting, and
this, the context you justpresented, Jason, as if you're
the team leader is, when youlook at the, the, the agenda at
team meetings, it's content,content, content.
Task, task, task, task, task.
Hardly ever does someone takethe time to say, I want to talk
(36:32):
about how effectively ourmeetings are functioning.
And so this is the, this is thestrategy.
It's an A and a B.
The A strategy doesn't meanbetter.
First strategy is at everysingle meeting.
Take five minutes and dosomething like this.
I want to talk about somethingthat people have witnessed the
(36:56):
past two weeks, the past threeweeks, month, whatever it is
that this team or people on theteam or others outside the team,
what they've witnessed thathelped our values come alive.
Jason Frazell (37:12):
I love that
question.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (37:13):
And in a non
gossiping kind of way, what is
something that you've witnessed?
That is an obstacle to ourachieving our values five
minutes in a one hour meeting Sothat's the a part the b part is
a picture is worth a thousandwords Leader could say something
like I just read this bookcalled why I don't work here
(37:36):
anymore Or I just saw thispodcast And I'd like everyone
before our next meeting to take45 minutes And review this
podcast and come with anyquestions or thoughts you might
have, we're going to take justfive minutes at this next team
meeting.
So what you're doing is you're,you're making these values in
(37:58):
the organization.
You're taking them off theplaque and all organizations,
most organizations have valuesoff, off a sheet of paper and
integrating them into the fabricof what people do every day.
Jason Frazell (38:11):
Yeah,
Dr. Mitch Kusy (38:12):
I think so.
That should be one strategy.
Jason Frazell (38:15):
Yeah, brilliant.
And to kind of wrap with thisbefore we talk about where
people can connect with you andfind you and all the beautiful
things, what gets in the way ofall these things?
Because it sounds, it's likemost things, it sounds simple.
And what gets in the way forleaders of doing these
Dr. Mitch Kusy (38:31):
things?
What gets in the way is leadersperceive appropriately.
So that they have all thesetasks.
They do often do not recognizeone of their tasks is to build a
team.
And they'll say, yeah, Iunderstand.
I got to build the team, butwhat are you doing to take time
(38:54):
during your day?
In a team meeting to build theteam.
Oh, we're going to go in threeweeks off to a team building
session.
That's fine.
But what are you doing tosustain this?
Every day.
And so if you have a weeklymeeting, a meeting every other
week, take 5 to 10 minutes totalk about what, what do we need
(39:15):
to do to live out these valuesbetter?
What do we need to do to makesure we have a respectful work
culture?
Whatever that is, what are theobstacles to our achieving that?
Five to 10 minutes at everymeeting.
Yeah, it is simple.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, it's like mostthings in life.
Yeah.
That doesn't handle everythingbecause one of the things that I
(39:36):
do as an organizationalpsychologist, and I do this
through the healthy workforceInstitute we, and I do this on
my own as well is to look atwhat do we need to do as an
organization, and there's an, attimes it's an elaborate three
month assessment process to say,here are the things that are
(39:57):
getting in the way.
Here's what I've noticed.
Now, let me help you puttogether a plan or strategy for
dealing with this.
Jason Frazell (40:05):
Well, Mitch, one
of the things I love that you
said there is too, you'resourcing ideas from others.
It's not just, just on you as aleader to go, Hey, it's like,
cause the team is, the team isarguably going to have better
ideas than you are becausethey're actually down doing the
things.
Exactly.
And maybe feeling this way.
Exactly.
Really, Mitch.
Brilliant.
Let's wrap here.
Let's talk about, so you've got,I'll just give you a little bit
(40:25):
of a, not even a little bit.
I'll give you a plug here.
So Mitch has, you have sixbooks.
Yes.
And you go on a variety ofspeaking and like I mentioned at
the top of the podcast, we'rehere because one of my clients
saw you speak at a big healthorganization, which is just so
cool.
So Mitch, you're a speaker,you're a, you're an author.
Where can people find out moreabout you and connect with you?
Dr. Mitch Kusy (40:45):
They can find me
a number of ways.
One is through the healthyworkforce Institute.
You can easily Google that theycan find me through LinkedIn.
I'm on LinkedIn and they couldemail me directly.
And it's my email was reallyeasy.
Mitchell koozie at gmail.
(41:05):
com.
It's Mitchell, which is where Ifound you earlier for the
listeners.
I grew up on the East coast andwhen I go back.
home and see friends and family.
I'm still known as Mitchell.
So I kept that really not Mitch.
So it's Mitchell Koozie K U S Yat gmail.
com.
So any one of those ways youcould find me.
Jason Frazell (41:28):
It's amazing,
Mitch.
Well, I really want toappreciate my
Dr. Mitch Kusy (41:30):
website, www.
mitchellkoozie.
com.
You can pull up all of myarticles.
that are available in publicdomain for free.
Jason Frazell (41:40):
Awesome, Mitch.
We'll have all that in the shownotes.
Mitch, I want to thank you somuch.
I'm so, I'm so glad that theturn of events had us end up
here.
I really love the work you'redoing.
I know as somebody who kind ofdoes opposite work and I mostly
speak to individuals, this issuch a common topic that people
feel, and it would make.
And I have worked with so manyfolks that would have stayed if
(42:02):
they hadn't felt this way.
Yeah.
They're more aligned.
It's a great work you're doing.
Dr. Mitch Kusy (42:06):
Thank you,
Jason.
Just remember the quote from myresearch study that when we
started today the day thisperson left our organization is
an annual holiday.
You don't want to be saying thatin your organization.
Jason Frazell (42:19):
No you don't.
Thank you so much, Mitch.
We'll have you back on againsoon to talk about what's next.
You're a great interviewer aswell, Jason.
Thank you.
Oh, thanks,
Dr. Mitch Kusy (42:24):
Mitch.
Jason Frazell (42:25):
Appreciate it.
Take care.
Speaker (42:27):
Thanks for listening to
another episode of Talking to
Cool People with Jason Frizzell.
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(42:49):
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