April 24, 2024 • 42 mins
This is part 2 of a conversation with Elena Armijo, where we dive deep into the often-overlooked impacts of inclusivity and belonging in the workplace and society.
"We're not aware of the impact that not being inclusive has for us as a society. "
Elena Armijo, Master Certified Coach (MCC), Founder and CEO of The C-Suite Collective, and Certified Dare to Lead™ Facilitator has a strong track record of supporting clients and organizations in creating impact, culture shifts and leadership development. Her unique ability to identify common patterns while generating new awareness and re-invention leaves clients with the ability to make stronger choices, clearer decisions and powerful steps toward their desired outcomes. Elena offers in-depth and customized executive programs for high performers who are at the top of their respective fields – from CEOs of leading businesses to professional athletes, policy-focused individuals, entertainers, and artists, and more. Partnering with Elena, these clients have created and achieved the professional and personal impact in the world they once perceived unattainable. As a former leader and trainer with Accomplishment Coaching©, and a CHIEF Core Guide Facilitator, Elena continues to expand her work with teams across the world. Elena also hosts the podcast The Collective Corner.
Elena Armijo was inspired to become an Executive and Leadership Coach through her work as a professional opera singer. Drawn to work with ambitious top performers like herself, she realized she could bring unique insight to the coaching business after spending many years “on the other side of the table.” Elena’s ten-year career in opera spanned across the globe and included work with many prestigious opera companies as well as performances at Lincoln Center and Carnegie Hall. Elena holds a B.M. of Music Education from New Mexico State University and an M.M. in Vocal Performance from the University of Washington.
When not traveling domestically and internationally for speaking engagements and workshops she lives in Los Angeles, CA with her partner Aaron and their sweet pups Nalle and Bailey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jason Frazell (00:12):
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back.
This is part two of myconversation with the executive
coach and Dare to Leadfacilitator, Elena Armijo, who
we did part one last week, andshe said something at the end of
the podcast, and it hit me sohard that I immediately said to
her, Elena, we need to continueto talk about this.
(00:32):
So here we are.
We're going to continue to talkabout this.
So Elena, It's a welcome backbecause we're not recording this
back to back, but for the peoplelistening, if they listen, this
is like, this is like, Oh, it'slike we were to the commercial
break, but no, we're actuallyrecording this, I think three
weeks apart because, because ofschedules, but I'm so glad to
have you back here to talk aboutthe thing and let me share with
the audience what you said andthen we'll do anything that you
(00:55):
want to share before we reallykick off and I have a feeling
this is going to be a pretty indepth and deep conversation with
some things that are not talkedabout as often as they should
be.
And I'm, I'm pointing the fingerat myself here.
So what Elena said at the end ofthat episode, she said, we're
not aware we being, I think,society, society, businesses,
(01:16):
people are not aware of theimpact that not being inclusive
has for us as a society, for usin the workplace, all the
different places that you and Ido our work.
And I was like, And it's likeyou saw me.
I was like, Oh, I don't know theimpact because I'm a straight
white man in my 40s over hereliving in a, quite frankly, I
(01:36):
live in a New York state, whichis for my political leanings is
very nice, right?
So it's like, it's like, Ididn't know that.
So I really felt.
Like convicted to talk moreabout this one selfishly because
I want to learn from you And Ifigured if I'm gonna learn from
you Why not have a bunch ofother people listening learn
from learn from you as well.
So that's the genesis of thisconversation So Elena again,
welcome back for those of youare listening back to back.
(01:59):
It's gonna feel like acommercial break.
Elena Armijo (02:02):
Well, thank you Thank you for having me back and
thanks for wanting to have theconversation
Jason Frazell (02:07):
Yeah, so let, why don't we start by maybe defining
a few things.
Sure.
Define, I think for thoselistening, let's start with the,
the topic of, let's start withthe term inclusivity.
This gets thrown around so much.
Yes.
Elena Armijo (02:24):
Yes.
Jason Frazell (02:24):
And.
Again, I think that we're justgonna have a conversation.
I'm going to share some of myopinions here as well.
It gets thrown around ratherflippantly in the business
world, the American businessworld, I think from certain
companies, you hear them talkabout it.
And then you look at thestatistics and you go, well, how
do you claim to be inclusive?
When you're bored or you're Csuite or you're hiring
(02:46):
practices.
So how, when we talk aboutinclusivity, how do you define
that?
Elena Armijo (02:53):
I define inclusivity as meaning that you
are making space at the tablefor a lot of different things,
diversity of thought.
So the, the way that I wantstart this conversation as well
on my side is that diversity,equity, inclusion, and belonging
D E I B as we know it is highlypoliticized in the U S right
(03:14):
now.
I wouldn't say the whole world,but definitely in the U S.
So one of the things that I'vedone in my personal work is to
get out of the context ofpolitics and D E I B and back
into the root of the words.
And that's really what we're,we're also looking at the, at.
In the C suite collective.
So when I think of inclusion orinclusivity, I'm thinking of
(03:35):
diversity of thought at thetable and that all are welcome.
That's really how we're framingthe conversation up.
Jason Frazell (03:42):
Yeah.
So you mentioned something aboutpolitics.
My, my stance on this is it ispoliticized on both sides of the
aisle.
So it's, it's not, it's a bi,it's a bipartisan thing.
It's not this party hates it.
This party likes it.
It gets used as a weapon on bothsides to be very clear.
Elena Armijo (03:59):
Correct.
Yeah.
Jason Frazell (04:00):
Hmm.
Elena Armijo (04:01):
I agree with that.
And therefore it makes it reallyhard to talk about right now
because of the way the wordshave been you know, used in
different contexts.
And I don't want to sayhijacked, but that's, that's a
bit what it feels like is thatall of those, those words now
have become so politicized andtied towards agendas that we've
(04:22):
lost the root of what we'reactually trying to create in
cultures.
Jason Frazell (04:28):
Business leaders listening.
I would say most people careabout this.
To some degree, they actuallydo.
Most individuals do care aboutthis.
So what do you see that getslost as it gets into more
organizational or the politicsor societal?
What gets lost aroundinclusivity and DEIB takes it
(04:51):
from a, let's agree most peoplecare, not all, but most people
care, and then it gets, iteither gets lost or it's just
for, feels like it's just forshow.
Elena Armijo (05:04):
Well, it's interesting that you said what
gets lost because to me, it'ssomething that we've maybe never
grounded in.
So you know, when we say thatwe've lost something, I don't
know that we've ever had it, youknow, to begin with.
And look, I agree with you.
I think most people, a generousassumption of most people is
that they're doing the best theycan.
And I really do believe thatabout all humans.
(05:26):
And so if they're doing the bestthey can, where have we not
tied?
Inclusion and belonging tobusiness.
And that's really what I'mlooking at, because look, this
is a great heart basedconversation.
And I hope that, you know, we gothere when you ask why it
directly impacts you.
You know, that's where I waslooking from a couple of places
around a spiritual side of theconversation and also a metric
(05:48):
side of the conversation.
But when I'm talking toorganizations about this of
course people want to care abouthumans.
And if we cannot tie an ROI toit.
It doesn't make sense for thehealth of a business.
And those are the things that Ithink have been missing in the
DEIB movement is we haven'tcreated enough data or connected
(06:08):
enough dots for people to seethe results of the business from
a different place.
And.
Because of that, what we've seenorganizations do is they get
worried about it and then theytry to fulfill a quota or check
a box.
We've seen that happen manytimes over the past, you know,
50 years.
What does that look like wherethey say, okay, we're addressing
(06:29):
this issue from this lens, butit's always been from a lens of
should.
Instead of anything that's basedin metrics, which I think is
really powerful when we comefrom data.
What we're seeing in culturesthat have gotten away from
diversity of thought is theybecome very exclusionary and a
lot of things that are toxicstart to enter the culture like
(06:51):
shame.
You know, I love Brené Brown'swork for this reason because
shame is rampant inorganizations.
Yeah.
And if we were approaching thisfrom a Courageous place or a
daring place, which is, whichare her words, but from my
place, a place of belonging,then this would create something
completely different.
(07:11):
And I'm excited about thepossibility of ROI from that
place, because imagine whatcould be created.
And so that's where we typicallystart the conversation with
people.
Jason Frazell (07:22):
Yeah, so if we're looking at, you mentioned the
spiritual and heart based partof this, I want to take it back
to you, to you here, and thenI'll, I'll share my, kind of
like why I care as well, butI'm, why do you care so much?
I'm really interested in whyElena cares.
Elena Armijo (07:38):
Well, I care personally because as a biracial
woman, I've been in the middlemy whole life.
Right.
So my, my parents are ofdifferent race and ethnicity.
My mom is, you know, French,German, Irish, white, and my dad
is Latin, right.
Or from Spain, actually.
So Hispanic and the two of themtogether navigating their
(08:00):
relationship and their cultureshas been something I was born
into and they are even differentpolitically.
You know, one is liberal or moreliberal, I would say, and one is
more conservative.
And even being in a household ofpolitics, having to navigate
those messy middle conversationswas fascinating to me.
And what I've learned in theworld, being a biracial woman,
(08:20):
especially when I don't reallyfeel like I belong in either
place, is that you have to learnto create belonging inside
yourself first so that you canthen be able to hear and be in
any room with any person.
And so a lot of my work hasexcavated the gold that's in the
mess.
And for me, there, there's somuch value in being in the mess
(08:43):
with people as opposed to havingthe right answer, having it
handled or having one right wayto get this all right.
That has never yielded as goodof results as just letting
things be everything all atonce.
Jason Frazell (08:56):
Well, You've had to look internally first, which
is, from out here, is not thegeneral message for comp,
especially for companies.
It's bringing it, teach us stuffso that we can learn things, so
(09:20):
that we can learn how to dothis.
But I have, you're, this is thefirst time that I've heard
somebody say around this topic,I've had to go internally first
to, to work through that.
So a couple things.
First thing is.
Love if you would share with us,you know, and the theme of
impact, what was some of theimpact for you being a bright
biracial women, women in, inyour career.
And we talked a little bit aboutthis on part one of this as an
(09:41):
opera singer, a little bit ofthat impact.
And then when you say I had todo the work, what does that mean
for somebody who doesn't knowwhat that means?
Because that's, that issomething you can own and
control, but you can't controlthat a whole boss or that
company who doesn't care.
So yeah, I'd love to hear those,love to hear both of those
things.
I'm so curious about both ofthese.
Thanks.
Elena Armijo (10:02):
The impact on me, we did share this a little bit
in the previous podcast, butwhat, what the direct impact was
is I had to figure out who I wasgoing to be in any given moment
in any given room.
So, you know, the opera industryway back when, when I first
started it in 2007,professionally was pretty far
(10:26):
behind in terms of diversity ofthought.
and belonging.
And it's a, it's an older artform.
You know, we're singing musicthat was written in the early
1700s or 1800s.
And so there's a lot oftradition that comes along with
that music that we really wantedto revere and honor.
(10:46):
And from a place of grace, Haveit be something that we pay
attention to.
So our roots in the industry orthe, or the roots of musicians
or composers.
And there wasn't a lot of spacefor newness.
And the way that we saw thatdirectly impact that industry at
the time was that we were losingdonors and we were losing
(11:08):
audiences and music that oncewas very relevant because, you
know, opera when it was createdway back then was politics,
politics, people wrote to saysomething in the world where
they typically didn't havevoices to speak up or couldn't
because of a kingdom or rulingsor politics.
(11:28):
And so.
We lost some of that on the waytowards bringing it to America.
And I would say only in the last10 years or so have we really
started to see it revive withnew composers and new writing
that are being welcomed to thescene.
It doesn't mean that wasn'thappening before.
There was always composerswriting new music, but they
weren't necessarily welcomed.
(11:48):
And so my personal experiencehas been one of being, there was
a lot of instances where it wascontrolled, or I can remember
specific instances, like if youdon't sing a phrase this exact
way, then you will be fired.
And it was the exact way basedin tradition that they thought
it should be instead of anyartistry or any room for me to
(12:11):
show up at the table.
Jason Frazell (12:13):
So
Elena Armijo (12:13):
that's just one example.
Of many over, you know, 20 yearswhere I had to really navigate a
line of power dynamics andhierarchy and decide where were
my values and where was my line,which I really think is the
conversation for everyone inthese organizations because we
are working to change systems ifwe're speaking specifically
(12:35):
about.
Race, you know, which is whereyou and I started the
conversation last time systemsof white primacy then in those
conversations It's taking time.
We we know that we've beenaround for that conversation for
a really long time So the in themiddle of that who will you be?
Who will you transform into as aperson in light of the system
(12:58):
that's in front of you now?
And that's really theconversation when I say that we
are going to start with youfirst, you know, looking at
that.
And when I say I've done thework, you know, it's really
great.
Thanks for calling it forward.
Cause I say that offhand and asa coach, we say that probably a
hundred times every day andnobody knows what that means.
And what it means is I hired acoach and I hired a coach to
(13:20):
look at all of my blind spots inthe world and really unpack
where I'd created my careerfrom.
And when we started uncoveringsome of those stones or some of
those places that I had neverlooked, I found out a lot of
things.
I found out that I was provingmy worth in the world
constantly, which is notnecessarily about race or
(13:42):
ethnicity, but what it is isabout belonging.
You know, from a therapeuticstandpoint, right.
All the way back to whateverevent or trauma happened in your
life.
And so there was that piece, butthen I also had to be with all
the ways that I had survived inthe world with it, like masking,
which is, or, or or codeswitching, you know, which is a
(14:03):
very powerful conversation formost people that are POCs or
people that are marginalized.
On one hand, I had to reallyunpack what the cost of masking
was for me and my soul.
And then I also had to look atwhat a superpower it was, right?
There's two sides of the cointhat I could walk in a room and
actually be able to code switchand mask, which it would not
(14:25):
only was a survival skill, butit was.
Now in my profession, a skillthat allows me to talk to
anybody in any room.
So it was all confusing.
And really what I had to do wasget real about what I believe,
what my values are, what mysense of integrity is.
And then from there, choose whoI was going to be in the face of
(14:49):
some of these places that Ieither wanted to create or
choose belonging.
I'm not going to say createbelonging, but choose belonging
for myself or not.
Jason Frazell (14:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's like the mindset of Ibelong here, regardless of the
external, but it's I guess,like, I hear that as a, like a
self esteem, not a self, maybe aself esteem, like a value, like
valuing yourself enough andknowing about your value
independent of the identity partof it.
That has you long, there'ssomething I want to share and I
(15:19):
was just sharing with you.
I was at a retreat recently andthere was it was a men's
retreat.
There was a man of color thereand we were talking about some
of the things that we learnedhow to do.
And he was sharing how helearned to walk into any room
he's ever walked into andimmediately scan for all the
danger real or not because hewas a man of color.
(15:39):
And I was just blown.
That goes back to the, and likepart of the reason we're here is
the impact of like, I'm a whiteguy.
I don't.
That's not, I grew up in thesuburbs of St.
Paul.
I never naturally walk in a roomand scan for danger.
I'm like, wow, that's sointeresting to think about what
immediately came up for me andwhat came up for me.
And when you're talking aboutyour code switching and adapting
(16:00):
is how exhausting that must be,that must be to have to do that
all the time.
When you're like in that mode oflearning to operate that way in
the world, that must be tiring.
Elena Armijo (16:10):
It is.
And what I'll say is, you know,the thing I want to own is, is I
have a lot of privilege, right?
Like I have a lot of privilege.
I come from middle class.
I am white passing.
I can walk into a room andpeople aren't even sure what I
am.
Which is holds privilege too.
So I, I want to say that Icertainly don't have it as
exhausting as, as other peoplemight.
(16:30):
And what I notice is that eventhat has been confusing, right?
Like being in the middle andbeing like, well, what does that
mean?
Does that mean that I shouldactually look at how exhausting
it is for me?
Or does that mean, wait aminute, I need to work on my
privilege side and I need tolook at that.
And that, you know, we're inconversations about.
Where you do the work what, whatI've landed in, because frankly,
(16:54):
there's actually not a lot ofresearch out there for biracial
people right now.
Like they're, the conversationis not nuanced enough yet
because we are still inconversations about reparations.
you know, for, for people ofthis country.
And so I think we're going to,it's going to be a long time
before we even get to aconversation around what, what
(17:16):
is the work that biracial peopleneed to do.
And so in the meantime, I'mdoing all the work, right?
I'm looking at my white side andeverything that I need to look
at own heel there, my privilege.
And I'm also looking at my Latinside.
Of what I need to own or what'sbeen lost or what I want to
reclaim.
Right.
And so that work is many layersdeep, but I think the most
(17:39):
important thing, you know, inthe C suite collective, we talk
about a three phase approachwith organizations and the first
step is getting real and that'sactually like what we're doing
right now.
We're getting really real aboutwhat's on the table or what you
know, versus what I know versuslike, what can we, what's the
soup we're swimming in rightnow?
And then the second stage isbelonging to self.
(18:00):
And that's where we spend a lotof time with organizations.
Again, going back into what arethe places that you've forgotten
about?
What are the places that arecosting you something?
What are the places that couldbe exponentially created in a
different mindset that wouldproduce.
It's not necessarily more, butdifferent because more would be
part of the same system, right?
(18:22):
So those are the conversationswe're in.
And I just, I am so appreciativeof you wanting to have this
conversation at the next levelbecause what I said at the end
of the podcast was even you in asystem of white supremacy Is may
not be aware of what it'scosting you.
Right.
Jason Frazell (18:40):
Yeah.
Elena Armijo (18:40):
And, and oppressors or people at the top
of a paradigm that are winning,winning or having power dynamics
are also losing, but it doesn'tlook like that.
And it doesn't, you don'texperience it like that because
there is so much privilege andso many things that are winning
above others, but when you slowit down, You can really find
(19:02):
what it's costing you.
Jason Frazell (19:03):
I'd like to go into that here in a minute,
getting present to what wascoming up for me around that
too.
Yeah.
I want to get into that, butElena, I'm just feeling called
to see if you have any, anyquestions for me so far.
I don't know.
I just, I want to.
Put that out there.
Elena Armijo (19:21):
Well, I'm curious.
How have you experiencedinclusivity and belonging in
your life?
Jason Frazell (19:27):
Yeah.
I've experienced a lack of itfor sure in how I was, not how I
was raised.
My parents are amazing, but Igrew up in.
About as white bread as you can.
I grew up in a suburb of St.
Paul, Minnesota, and I graduatedat a big high school with 550
(19:50):
kids.
And we had one black kid whocame in our senior year.
So I had no.
I had no real experience.
None of my friends were of, ofcolor.
And then I went to, to a collegethat was, it's big, but I, you
know, you naturally grouped withthe demographics.
And I'm glad you asked me thisbecause then I moved to New York
city in 2005.
(20:12):
And I'm like, wait.
There's a lot of different typesof people and these are great
people and realize the theinclusivity of like it in New
York, I started to work withfolks of BIPOC and Started to
become friends with them and theinclusivity is like I didn't
(20:33):
really even I hate the term Idon't see it because I think
that's just To say you don't seesomebody's color is like, this
is my own opinion, just beingreally real, it's kind of
bullshit, because that wouldmean that you're actually not
paying attention to them.
Right, but not only that, butyou're actually like, yeah, but
also like, you're then notacknowledging their actual
identity.
(20:53):
Like, it'd be like, I don't seecolor.
I may not see what it meansabout you, but I am going to see
color.
But like, just getting to knowfolks that way, and then,
Starting to really, my wife andI, and my wife works at a very
inclusive company historically,very modern tech company, where
she started sharing herexperiences with me when she,
(21:15):
she had some folks that weretransitioning or were non
binary, a lot of different likeracial profiles and just talking
about like, It doesn't reallymatter and I never thought it
mattered, but then I realized Icame in with what like most
people do with my own thingbecause it's only my experience
from my childhood and thenearlier in my 20s and how I've
(21:35):
experienced it now, I thinkcoming to now is, is, you know,
the work that I've done as acoach and the trainings that
I've done is, and I've coached alot of folks that are not like
me.
Sex, race gender, gender, orsexual orientation, and just
coming to realize, I'm justspeaking my truth is, we're all
(21:59):
the same, it doesn't reallymatter.
Like it matters and it doesn't,like it matters, your identity
matters greatly, but we all wantthe same stuff, and when you
like, when I can relate topeople that way, and I would
assert that might be true fororganizations too.
in many ways.
And what gets in the way is allthe, all the normal human crap
that gets in the way of mosteverything.
Elena Armijo (22:19):
Yeah.
Well, I love that you said humancrap.
Cause that's actually those arethe things that I think keep the
systems in play.
Right.
And you're right.
I think everybody does enjoydiversity of thought and
expansion and who they are.
And that's, that's really what Iheard in your share.
So thanks for sharing it is thatyou got to experience other
people in unique ways andtherefore see, well, well, what
(22:42):
did it, what did that do to you?
Jason Frazell (22:46):
It definitely expanded my, my like purview is
what I would call it or my, it'slike, you never know until you
walk a mile in somebody else'sshoes.
I've been fortunate to have somepretty deep conversations with
people not like me, but evenjust observing.
And again, just going back to mychildhood is, you know, When
(23:07):
you're raging in such ahomogenous way, I think I just
assumed everybody was like usand like, which is, I think like
again, that the psychology thatis, I think that's a, that's a
basic human structure thathumans, we like to do, right?
Like who's like me.
So I can feel a sense ofbelonging.
Let me connect with those peopleand let me assume some things.
(23:28):
So I don't do a lot of work.
And just knowing that isn'talways the case.
It's been really powerful forme.
Again, like You know, we weregoing to get a two in it.
We went through the same coachtraining program.
My biggest breakthrough wasopening my heart and being like,
you know what?
People, people are amazing,whether they like you or not.
And I don't know that I fullysaw that before.
So that has been a really greatexperience of inclusivity for
(23:49):
me.
And then I'm a lot happierbecause I'm less judgmental.
And it's not necessarily aboutD.
E.
I.
B., but just people in general,which then, of course, because
they're people, they're like,oh, I don't know.
I'm not really sure.
That person, that person isacting, what I would say is,
quote, I'm doing air quotes,quote, unquote, strange, but
like, is it that maybe that'snot strange for them versus
(24:12):
like, oh, that's strange becauseI label it as strange.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Which is a really much more funway to go through life at the
end of the day.
That's what it comes down to.
It's much more enjoyable.
It's what I'm all about.
Elena Armijo (24:25):
Expansion.
Well, and I think that'sactually a piece of what we're
all talking about here, youknow, from expansion in the
world of happiness andfulfillment for everyone.
And I love what you said aboutthe piece where, oh, one second,
it was great.
Well, I guess what I want topick up is the piece where you
(24:45):
said I get to experience otherpeople and expand my mind and
who I am in the world.
And what I love about that isthat is what's possible for
everyone.
If there's diversity of thoughtin the room, including people
who don't traditionally getopportunities to do that.
Jason Frazell (25:01):
And you want
Elena Armijo (25:02):
to be careful.
Then we get into conversationsabout appropriation, right?
And what does that look like,right?
As we expand into that.
But what I, what I think isreally interesting about what
you said is, you know, when welook at power dynamics in the
workplace and people that havebeen told to normalize to one
norm, that's what I was going tosay.
(25:22):
I heard you say like, it was soeasy to think that this was
normal, one way of living I loveall of the beautiful research
that's come out in the past 15years around even neurodiversity
and how we've been treating itas a diagnosis or disorders and
what if we were treating it asgifts.
And that norm or neurotypicalwasn't the centering, right?
(25:45):
Like that wasn't everybody needsto come to the center and meet
in neurotypical land, but thatwe all have differences of
thoughts and that neurodiversityis actually where the gifts are
of innovation and creation andcreativity.
And if it was treated like thatinstead of, Oh, these people
need to learn how to be normal.
Or to meet us in normal, howmuch would change?
(26:05):
And I think it's the same thingwith race.
You know, the thing I want tosay about white supremacy and
organizations is that typicallythe people who have the power
that are at the top,traditionally we've seen that be
white men or white women at thetop.
They, when I say that they'relosing too, I want to be really
clear about what that means.
They're losing out onexperiences of being in
(26:29):
community with people.
Because think about it.
If you're at the top, chancesare.
You're racing pretty hard tostay at the top.
I don't know anybody who's everbeen at the top who doesn't work
really, really hard to not losethe spot at the top.
And that's a normal, that's anormal human response.
But what that does is it causesthe same thing that we're seeing
(26:50):
other people struggle with whoaren't at the top.
Cause you're still burned out.
You're still overworked.
You're still overproducing,you're, it's still costing you
sleep and all the well beingissues that we see in the
coaching land.
You're just coming from adifferent side of the coin.
So you're doing the same things,but the only difference is yours
(27:11):
is to keep the top and otherpeople's are to get to the top
or to get to a place ofequality.
And so if we were having acompletely different
conversation outside of that,and we really were grounded in.
What if all means all and powerdynamics weren't used for
anything other thanAcknowledging what's there and
then being together and bringingpeople along.
(27:34):
What would we create with ROI?
Jason Frazell (27:36):
I want to get into the ROI piece here.
Is that that's kind of the thehead based Impact, but we but I
think you and I are in agreementbased on what we've been talking
about at the end of the day,that is what moves the needle in
a business at the end of theday.
And so I think it's acknowledgedas important before we go into
that part, maybe to wrap thisup, I want to ask you about
(27:59):
blind spots that you see workingwith leaders around this,
because I know you get, you andthe C suite collective, you get
hired a lot for this sort ofwork.
What are some of the, like, theyknow they have A problem or
maybe they don't think it's aproblem, but somebody's like,
Hey, we need to do some workaround this.
But what are the blind spotsthat of leaders that you've
specifically worked with?
(28:20):
And what is the impact for them?
Not just as the leader, but as aperson, like as the whole
person, when they start toacknowledge us, and it might be
working with a coat might belearning just, but like the
impact of all these things, kindof going back to what we talked
about is what are we missing outby not understanding the impact
of that?
And I'd love to hear sometangible examples from people
(28:42):
that you've worked with.
Elena Armijo (28:44):
Yeah.
Well, there's been a coupleleaders.
I'll start with the ones at thetop that maybe didn't have.
Didn't weren't bought in, buttheir company says that they
need to write.
Those people are the ones that Ido work with in that arena.
All the work we do is to slowdown and look at what the impact
is on them first.
Because
Jason Frazell (29:05):
again, Sorry, Elaine.
I want to ask you and you saythey're not bought in.
Can we clarify?
Are they, they don't believeit's important to the bottom
line or like, what is it?
Elena Armijo (29:15):
Conversation.
Yeah.
They don't believe it's boughtinto the bottom line.
It's like, look, I haven't metany leaders at the top that
overtly like hate humans.
Jason Frazell (29:23):
I have not come into
Elena Armijo (29:24):
contact with that person one time, right?
Like they're weird.
That would be weird.
And also,
Jason Frazell (29:29):
yeah,
Elena Armijo (29:32):
and you know, I think they're, they're holding a
lot and there's a lot going onthere, but what I find is that
when they're like, no, thisdoesn't have any impact for our
company.
They're missing some key pointsnot only for their experience as
a leader, how could it godifferently instead of how heavy
it probably is for them at thatmoment.
And I really mean like withoverwhelmed burnout.
stress, all of these things thatwe talk about at the top, being
(29:55):
lonely at the top, not havinganybody in your circles to
mastermind or co create with.
So there's that impact.
But from a business standpoint,you know, some of the things
we're seeing is that when peopledon't want to be in a company
with a toxic culture, they don'twant to They don't care how much
money they're making.
They don't care what title theyhave.
They don't care if they're inthe job of their dreams.
(30:16):
If they are not valued and seen,they're going to leave and
they're going to find anotherplace to be.
That's an alignment with theirvalues.
So the very first measure of ROIthat we can look for is if
people are in seats that theylove and they feel supported and
seen and are in alignment withtheir values, they're probably
going to stay.
And they're going to be some ofyour legacy people.
(30:38):
So when we're recreating culturefrom, from an environment where
people actually want to stay andbuild and grow, that's the first
piece we talk about is legacy.
So what's the legacy that youwant to create and how does that
directly correlate to yourculture?
When we talk about people thatare.
Scene felt heard.
Their voices are welcomed.
(30:58):
Their innovation is welcomed.
We see increases in sales ofproducts.
That's a very specific examplethat I have where all of a
sudden somebody who wasproducing at one level is now
producing at five times thelevel that they were because
they are in flow with theirideas and they're not being shut
down.
So therefore they have expandedtheir wings and their own
(31:21):
leadership to be able to show upto the table and bring more.
And they're more invested againfrom the previous conversation
of their values aligned withyour company.
So now we see people in theright seats.
We see people staying longer andwe see people producing more,
but I would say more from aplace of culture and buy in.
They're bought into the productor whatever piece you're selling
(31:44):
in the world because theybelieve it from a different
place.
So this isn't just more forcapitalism to create more, more,
more in a white supremacystructure.
It is to slow down and actuallysay, do I agree with this
company?
Do I agree with what they'redoing in the world?
Do I want to support it in theworld?
And then how can I bring my, mygifts to the table to do that?
(32:05):
And these are the companies inthe last five years that we've
seen start to edge forward.
These are the companies that inthe middle of a pandemic or in
the middle of a recession or inthe middle of an election year.
Are still doing okay.
And are not like laying peopleoff.
Jason Frazell (32:19):
Yeah.
Elena Armijo (32:20):
So when I talk about ROI, I talk about what are
the business results you want tosee from a holistic, healthy
place, as opposed to the oldmodel of systems and business
first over people.
Jason Frazell (32:33):
Yeah.
I have a lot of thoughts,collecting my thoughts.
Like that was a lot.
That was a lot of, a lot of, alot of powerful stuff there.
I think why don't, why don't wewrap it up?
I'm trying to think how I wantto wrap this powerfully.
I think what I'd, I'd like totalk to anybody listening right
now who feels, feels this insome way, who feels this.
(33:00):
I, I'm sure you've heard this alot too, but I hear this a lot
regarding age.
Yep.
Age.
Generally younger.
And I'm smart, Ivy Leagueeducated many times, like smart,
but they did, there's thisdeference to experience and age.
I coach a lot of folks inconsulting companies and this is
(33:20):
like a thing.
The partners doing their thingand it's kind of like command
and control structure.
And I'm just really present to aconversation, how they said, I
have so many good ideas, but Idon't say anything.
But, and so, so age is somethingwe haven't talked about here.
I think it applies in some wayswhere people feel discriminated
against against their age, ofcourse, as well.
(33:41):
And no matter what it is thatpeople are not feeling like a
sense of belonging, what wouldyou say to them in terms of how
do you practice it goingdifferently?
Hmm.
Elena Armijo (33:55):
Well, that's so good.
I'm thinking about one of theworkshops we ran last week where
we literally had everybody justsit down at the table and we
created some agreements.
Of what the intention was forthe conversation, what the
parameters were for theconversation, what we could
commit to within theconversation, and then getting
some feelings out on the tableand moderating some of the
(34:16):
breakdowns that were happeningin the space.
Okay.
And that's where I would start,you know, like get a mediator to
support you with some of thosethings first and what emerged.
Was really beautifulconversations around what each
side had to bring and where eachside felt unheard
Jason Frazell (34:35):
And
Elena Armijo (34:36):
from there a plan was co created about who they
were going to be for each othermoving forward so just that
simple conversation whether Youknow, it can grow over time into
business results, but startingthere Is the getting real place
Jason Frazell (34:53):
isn't it as you say it, I'm thinking, I'm like,
this is so simple yet.
So not simple.
Yeah.
You're like, wait, wait, hold ona minute.
So I just want to be clear.
You had people sit down, youagreed what the conversation is,
and then you allowed people tobe themselves.
And the magic was amazing,
Elena Armijo (35:09):
right?
And you helped me and then they,you know, and when it got
gnarly, cause it does, we tookbreath, we did somatic work, we
slowed down, but the agreementwas to stay in the conversation.
Yeah.
And nobody left.
Jason Frazell (35:21):
Yeah.
Wow.
Elena Armijo (35:23):
And if they needed to leave, we took a time out and
we said when we were going tocome back.
And then we honored that.
Right?
So there's a lot of ways you canstart, but it really can be just
very simple from the verybeginning to figure out what's
actually going on.
Jason Frazell (35:37):
Yeah.
Now, I think I want to wrap herewith talking to the leaders
listening, people leaders.
Cause it's great to be, it'sgreat to be the person who wants
to feel more of a belonging.
And a lot of this in myexperience in my career is
dependent on how your leadershows up or your, your
management chain.
(35:57):
So I want to talk to theleaders.
Now you hear this all the time.
I hear this all the time.
I want my team to have a senseof belonging.
I want to have their own.
I have a sense of team identity,individual identity.
I want them to be happy here.
And a lot of companies that is abig, like where my wife works,
that's actually a measurement.
that she is specifically scoredon is do you feel like your
manager supports you trust youdo you have a sense of belonging
(36:20):
and can you show up however youwant so for leaders who are
going you know what I know thatthere's people on my team who
don't feel safe or don't feelheard and want to own their
impact and do somethingdifferently what would you say
to those leaders and yes theyneed to be doing their work too
and To me, if the leader canstart to do this and model this,
(36:40):
that's how you can makeexponential change happen over
time.
Because that's how you make thecultural shift.
So I'll just say, if there's aleader here who says, Hey,
Elaine, I want to, I want toreally work with you, or I want
you to work with my team andwith me, on how we can really
create this, this sense ofbelonging on my team.
And all are welcome, diversityof thought, diversity of
identity and all these things,but I'm just not sure how.
(37:04):
Inside of the confines of acompany.
Yeah.
What, what would you like?
Well, yeah.
What, what would, where wouldyou go with that?
Elena Armijo (37:11):
I would say the first thing is let's have a
conversation about what you'rewilling to do.
So that would be the very firstplace to start is as a leader,
what are you willing to do tochange this?
And it's, it is, what are youwilling to do and who are you
willing to be?
So of course, we're looking atbeing in that conversation, but
really like, let's get reallyreal about how far you're
(37:32):
willing to go with thisconversation to create the
vision that you see.
And then when we know what thatvision looks like and where you
want to be, it is starting thehard conversations about what
can you own?
What have you not seen?
What are you scared of?
What can you share transparentlyto model transparency in real
(37:56):
time?
And what can you own about trustbeing broken that has people not
wanting to show up?
Jason Frazell (38:03):
That's
Elena Armijo (38:03):
some of the deeper work to start with and that's
just the start.
Jason Frazell (38:08):
And is that is that generally something
generally something that's oneon one work because they're
gonna They may, they may needto, that's where you'll help
them do their work there so thatthey can show up with the team
in preparation for that.
Elena Armijo (38:19):
Typically we start with one to one, but if it's a
small executive team that wantsto do this work together, we can
do it in group setting as well.
But I think our line in the sandis if the leaders don't want to
do it first, then thisconversation won't change
anything.
So just like you said earlier,They have to go first.
Right.
So that's really where we juststart.
Jason Frazell (38:39):
Yeah.
You know, like otherwise it'slike, yeah, let's just all call
it out.
We're checking a box here.
We're, we're doing what we'rechecking a box.
One of the things that I like toask when things like this come
up or variety thing, what for?
And they're like, Oh, cause itcan help.
Well, like what for like, Oh,Elena, we really want to blank
blank.
You probably have this in, Icall this like a, it's almost a
(39:00):
sales conversation.
That we really want to blank,blank, blank.
Elena Armijo (39:03):
Mm hmm.
Jason Frazell (39:04):
What for?
Elena Armijo (39:05):
Yeah, exactly.
What will that lead to?
Jason Frazell (39:07):
Yeah.
And then they're like, they'relike, wait, nobody's ever asked
me what for.
It's just the thing we'resupposed to do.
Elena Armijo (39:10):
Yeah, exactly.
Jason Frazell (39:12):
They're like, we want, so we lower our attrition.
Is that really all you care?
Is that, is that the only thingyou want?
And so it's, at the end of theday, I just, I love the work you
and the C Suite Collective aredoing around, like what you just
said is helping leaders owntheir impact and there's always
something.
That leaders can own it doesn'tmean they will and by they I'm
(39:34):
speaking to myself as wellleader in many ways of my life
And so for the leaders that arelistening, what's a way that
they can start the work?
If somebody's just thinkingright now, cause like I know how
my brain works, I don't knowabout you, but like listening to
a podcast, I'm like, Ooh, I feelconvicted.
I feel seen.
Oh, there's things I can own.
(39:55):
Like I can go talk to Elenatomorrow, but today I'm in the
car driving home to see myfamily.
What's like, how do people getpresent to that?
Cause you mentioned a couple ofthings you mentioned, what can
we own, but also like, what do Inot know?
Elena Armijo (40:07):
Yeah.
What do you not know?
Which is a hard question to askon your own, right?
Because we don't know what wedon't know, but you could ask,
what do you, what is, what haveyou been sitting on?
That you're afraid of addressingwhat's been in the space that
you know is there the elephantin the room that you haven't
touched or that you've tried totouch, but you've given up on or
(40:28):
you're resigned about, thatcould be another great coaching
question.
What are you resigned aboutright now?
What do you think is not goingto shift?
And then getting really clear onwhat the choices are around that
to move forward towards yourvision.
Jason Frazell (40:42):
Beautiful.
Elena, thank you so much.
I'm really glad we were able tocome in, get deeper on this
conversation.
Thank you for being with me asI'm just asking the things that
over here, I may, I may notknow.
No, that I may not know.
I really appreciate you sharingyour truth about both your past,
what you're doing now and the,the idea that like one thing I
(41:03):
think we, we do have in commonis we have a commitment to this
and I hope that this isinspiring for everybody
listening and that you all goout.
And do something to make achange in your life or your
organization.
If you're a leader, or if you'relike being willing, like you
said, being willing to do thework yourself so that you can
show up in that room, no matterhow you identify and go, I
(41:23):
belong here because that, and Iwill leave with this, that's the
feeling I've had my whole life.
Elena Armijo (41:32):
Yeah.
Jason Frazell (41:33):
White guy, white guy in sales.
I'm like, you know what?
I'm selling other white peoplein sales.
This is fine.
I belong, I've never walked in aroom and like that person's
dangerous, that person'sdangerous.
And so this is the feeling I'vehad.
And I want that, I wanteverybody to have that feeling
because I didn't choose this,just like nobody else chose how
they were born and this is thereality.
So I think it's important andthe diversity of thought and
(41:55):
action and differentperspectives, perspectives will
make such a difference for this.
world.
Such a difference for thisworld, which is what matters the
most.
So thank you, Elena.
Elena Armijo (42:06):
That's what I believe.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Jason Frazell (42:10):
All right.
Thanks so much.
Take care.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of Talking to Cool
People with Jason Frizzell.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please tell your friends, follow
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If something from today'sepisode piqued your interest and
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(42:34):
com.
We love hearing from ourlisteners because you're cool
people too.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back.
This is part two of myconversation with the executive
coach and Dare to Leadfacilitator, Elena Armijo, who
we did part one last week, andshe said something at the end of
the podcast, and it hit me sohard that I immediately said to
her, Elena, we need to continueto talk about this.
(00:32):
So here we are.
We're going to continue to talkabout this.
So Elena, It's a welcome backbecause we're not recording this
back to back, but for the peoplelistening, if they listen, this
is like, this is like, Oh, it'slike we were to the commercial
break, but no, we're actuallyrecording this, I think three
weeks apart because, because ofschedules, but I'm so glad to
have you back here to talk aboutthe thing and let me share with
the audience what you said andthen we'll do anything that you
(00:55):
want to share before we reallykick off and I have a feeling
this is going to be a pretty indepth and deep conversation with
some things that are not talkedabout as often as they should
be.
And I'm, I'm pointing the fingerat myself here.
So what Elena said at the end ofthat episode, she said, we're
not aware we being, I think,society, society, businesses,
(01:16):
people are not aware of theimpact that not being inclusive
has for us as a society, for usin the workplace, all the
different places that you and Ido our work.
And I was like, And it's likeyou saw me.
I was like, Oh, I don't know theimpact because I'm a straight
white man in my 40s over hereliving in a, quite frankly, I
(01:36):
live in a New York state, whichis for my political leanings is
very nice, right?
So it's like, it's like, Ididn't know that.
So I really felt.
Like convicted to talk moreabout this one selfishly because
I want to learn from you And Ifigured if I'm gonna learn from
you Why not have a bunch ofother people listening learn
from learn from you as well.
So that's the genesis of thisconversation So Elena again,
welcome back for those of youare listening back to back.
(01:59):
It's gonna feel like acommercial break.
Elena Armijo (02:02):
Well, thank you Thank you for having me back and
thanks for wanting to have theconversation
Jason Frazell (02:07):
Yeah, so let, why don't we start by maybe defining
a few things.
Sure.
Define, I think for thoselistening, let's start with the,
the topic of, let's start withthe term inclusivity.
This gets thrown around so much.
Yes.
Elena Armijo (02:24):
Yes.
Jason Frazell (02:24):
And.
Again, I think that we're justgonna have a conversation.
I'm going to share some of myopinions here as well.
It gets thrown around ratherflippantly in the business
world, the American businessworld, I think from certain
companies, you hear them talkabout it.
And then you look at thestatistics and you go, well, how
do you claim to be inclusive?
When you're bored or you're Csuite or you're hiring
(02:46):
practices.
So how, when we talk aboutinclusivity, how do you define
that?
Elena Armijo (02:53):
I define inclusivity as meaning that you
are making space at the tablefor a lot of different things,
diversity of thought.
So the, the way that I wantstart this conversation as well
on my side is that diversity,equity, inclusion, and belonging
D E I B as we know it is highlypoliticized in the U S right
(03:14):
now.
I wouldn't say the whole world,but definitely in the U S.
So one of the things that I'vedone in my personal work is to
get out of the context ofpolitics and D E I B and back
into the root of the words.
And that's really what we're,we're also looking at the, at.
In the C suite collective.
So when I think of inclusion orinclusivity, I'm thinking of
(03:35):
diversity of thought at thetable and that all are welcome.
That's really how we're framingthe conversation up.
Jason Frazell (03:42):
Yeah.
So you mentioned something aboutpolitics.
My, my stance on this is it ispoliticized on both sides of the
aisle.
So it's, it's not, it's a bi,it's a bipartisan thing.
It's not this party hates it.
This party likes it.
It gets used as a weapon on bothsides to be very clear.
Elena Armijo (03:59):
Correct.
Yeah.
Jason Frazell (04:00):
Hmm.
Elena Armijo (04:01):
I agree with that.
And therefore it makes it reallyhard to talk about right now
because of the way the wordshave been you know, used in
different contexts.
And I don't want to sayhijacked, but that's, that's a
bit what it feels like is thatall of those, those words now
have become so politicized andtied towards agendas that we've
(04:22):
lost the root of what we'reactually trying to create in
cultures.
Jason Frazell (04:28):
Business leaders listening.
I would say most people careabout this.
To some degree, they actuallydo.
Most individuals do care aboutthis.
So what do you see that getslost as it gets into more
organizational or the politicsor societal?
What gets lost aroundinclusivity and DEIB takes it
(04:51):
from a, let's agree most peoplecare, not all, but most people
care, and then it gets, iteither gets lost or it's just
for, feels like it's just forshow.
Elena Armijo (05:04):
Well, it's interesting that you said what
gets lost because to me, it'ssomething that we've maybe never
grounded in.
So you know, when we say thatwe've lost something, I don't
know that we've ever had it, youknow, to begin with.
And look, I agree with you.
I think most people, a generousassumption of most people is
that they're doing the best theycan.
And I really do believe thatabout all humans.
(05:26):
And so if they're doing the bestthey can, where have we not
tied?
Inclusion and belonging tobusiness.
And that's really what I'mlooking at, because look, this
is a great heart basedconversation.
And I hope that, you know, we gothere when you ask why it
directly impacts you.
You know, that's where I waslooking from a couple of places
around a spiritual side of theconversation and also a metric
(05:48):
side of the conversation.
But when I'm talking toorganizations about this of
course people want to care abouthumans.
And if we cannot tie an ROI toit.
It doesn't make sense for thehealth of a business.
And those are the things that Ithink have been missing in the
DEIB movement is we haven'tcreated enough data or connected
(06:08):
enough dots for people to seethe results of the business from
a different place.
And.
Because of that, what we've seenorganizations do is they get
worried about it and then theytry to fulfill a quota or check
a box.
We've seen that happen manytimes over the past, you know,
50 years.
What does that look like wherethey say, okay, we're addressing
(06:29):
this issue from this lens, butit's always been from a lens of
should.
Instead of anything that's basedin metrics, which I think is
really powerful when we comefrom data.
What we're seeing in culturesthat have gotten away from
diversity of thought is theybecome very exclusionary and a
lot of things that are toxicstart to enter the culture like
(06:51):
shame.
You know, I love Brené Brown'swork for this reason because
shame is rampant inorganizations.
Yeah.
And if we were approaching thisfrom a Courageous place or a
daring place, which is, whichare her words, but from my
place, a place of belonging,then this would create something
completely different.
(07:11):
And I'm excited about thepossibility of ROI from that
place, because imagine whatcould be created.
And so that's where we typicallystart the conversation with
people.
Jason Frazell (07:22):
Yeah, so if we're looking at, you mentioned the
spiritual and heart based partof this, I want to take it back
to you, to you here, and thenI'll, I'll share my, kind of
like why I care as well, butI'm, why do you care so much?
I'm really interested in whyElena cares.
Elena Armijo (07:38):
Well, I care personally because as a biracial
woman, I've been in the middlemy whole life.
Right.
So my, my parents are ofdifferent race and ethnicity.
My mom is, you know, French,German, Irish, white, and my dad
is Latin, right.
Or from Spain, actually.
So Hispanic and the two of themtogether navigating their
(08:00):
relationship and their cultureshas been something I was born
into and they are even differentpolitically.
You know, one is liberal or moreliberal, I would say, and one is
more conservative.
And even being in a household ofpolitics, having to navigate
those messy middle conversationswas fascinating to me.
And what I've learned in theworld, being a biracial woman,
(08:20):
especially when I don't reallyfeel like I belong in either
place, is that you have to learnto create belonging inside
yourself first so that you canthen be able to hear and be in
any room with any person.
And so a lot of my work hasexcavated the gold that's in the
mess.
And for me, there, there's somuch value in being in the mess
(08:43):
with people as opposed to havingthe right answer, having it
handled or having one right wayto get this all right.
That has never yielded as goodof results as just letting
things be everything all atonce.
Jason Frazell (08:56):
Well, You've had to look internally first, which
is, from out here, is not thegeneral message for comp,
especially for companies.
It's bringing it, teach us stuffso that we can learn things, so
(09:20):
that we can learn how to dothis.
But I have, you're, this is thefirst time that I've heard
somebody say around this topic,I've had to go internally first
to, to work through that.
So a couple things.
First thing is.
Love if you would share with us,you know, and the theme of
impact, what was some of theimpact for you being a bright
biracial women, women in, inyour career.
And we talked a little bit aboutthis on part one of this as an
(09:41):
opera singer, a little bit ofthat impact.
And then when you say I had todo the work, what does that mean
for somebody who doesn't knowwhat that means?
Because that's, that issomething you can own and
control, but you can't controlthat a whole boss or that
company who doesn't care.
So yeah, I'd love to hear those,love to hear both of those
things.
I'm so curious about both ofthese.
Thanks.
Elena Armijo (10:02):
The impact on me, we did share this a little bit
in the previous podcast, butwhat, what the direct impact was
is I had to figure out who I wasgoing to be in any given moment
in any given room.
So, you know, the opera industryway back when, when I first
started it in 2007,professionally was pretty far
(10:26):
behind in terms of diversity ofthought.
and belonging.
And it's a, it's an older artform.
You know, we're singing musicthat was written in the early
1700s or 1800s.
And so there's a lot oftradition that comes along with
that music that we really wantedto revere and honor.
(10:46):
And from a place of grace, Haveit be something that we pay
attention to.
So our roots in the industry orthe, or the roots of musicians
or composers.
And there wasn't a lot of spacefor newness.
And the way that we saw thatdirectly impact that industry at
the time was that we were losingdonors and we were losing
(11:08):
audiences and music that oncewas very relevant because, you
know, opera when it was createdway back then was politics,
politics, people wrote to saysomething in the world where
they typically didn't havevoices to speak up or couldn't
because of a kingdom or rulingsor politics.
(11:28):
And so.
We lost some of that on the waytowards bringing it to America.
And I would say only in the last10 years or so have we really
started to see it revive withnew composers and new writing
that are being welcomed to thescene.
It doesn't mean that wasn'thappening before.
There was always composerswriting new music, but they
weren't necessarily welcomed.
(11:48):
And so my personal experiencehas been one of being, there was
a lot of instances where it wascontrolled, or I can remember
specific instances, like if youdon't sing a phrase this exact
way, then you will be fired.
And it was the exact way basedin tradition that they thought
it should be instead of anyartistry or any room for me to
(12:11):
show up at the table.
Jason Frazell (12:13):
So
Elena Armijo (12:13):
that's just one example.
Of many over, you know, 20 yearswhere I had to really navigate a
line of power dynamics andhierarchy and decide where were
my values and where was my line,which I really think is the
conversation for everyone inthese organizations because we
are working to change systems ifwe're speaking specifically
(12:35):
about.
Race, you know, which is whereyou and I started the
conversation last time systemsof white primacy then in those
conversations It's taking time.
We we know that we've beenaround for that conversation for
a really long time So the in themiddle of that who will you be?
Who will you transform into as aperson in light of the system
(12:58):
that's in front of you now?
And that's really theconversation when I say that we
are going to start with youfirst, you know, looking at
that.
And when I say I've done thework, you know, it's really
great.
Thanks for calling it forward.
Cause I say that offhand and asa coach, we say that probably a
hundred times every day andnobody knows what that means.
And what it means is I hired acoach and I hired a coach to
(13:20):
look at all of my blind spots inthe world and really unpack
where I'd created my careerfrom.
And when we started uncoveringsome of those stones or some of
those places that I had neverlooked, I found out a lot of
things.
I found out that I was provingmy worth in the world
constantly, which is notnecessarily about race or
(13:42):
ethnicity, but what it is isabout belonging.
You know, from a therapeuticstandpoint, right.
All the way back to whateverevent or trauma happened in your
life.
And so there was that piece, butthen I also had to be with all
the ways that I had survived inthe world with it, like masking,
which is, or, or or codeswitching, you know, which is a
(14:03):
very powerful conversation formost people that are POCs or
people that are marginalized.
On one hand, I had to reallyunpack what the cost of masking
was for me and my soul.
And then I also had to look atwhat a superpower it was, right?
There's two sides of the cointhat I could walk in a room and
actually be able to code switchand mask, which it would not
(14:25):
only was a survival skill, butit was.
Now in my profession, a skillthat allows me to talk to
anybody in any room.
So it was all confusing.
And really what I had to do wasget real about what I believe,
what my values are, what mysense of integrity is.
And then from there, choose whoI was going to be in the face of
(14:49):
some of these places that Ieither wanted to create or
choose belonging.
I'm not going to say createbelonging, but choose belonging
for myself or not.
Jason Frazell (14:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's like the mindset of Ibelong here, regardless of the
external, but it's I guess,like, I hear that as a, like a
self esteem, not a self, maybe aself esteem, like a value, like
valuing yourself enough andknowing about your value
independent of the identity partof it.
That has you long, there'ssomething I want to share and I
(15:19):
was just sharing with you.
I was at a retreat recently andthere was it was a men's
retreat.
There was a man of color thereand we were talking about some
of the things that we learnedhow to do.
And he was sharing how helearned to walk into any room
he's ever walked into andimmediately scan for all the
danger real or not because hewas a man of color.
(15:39):
And I was just blown.
That goes back to the, and likepart of the reason we're here is
the impact of like, I'm a whiteguy.
I don't.
That's not, I grew up in thesuburbs of St.
Paul.
I never naturally walk in a roomand scan for danger.
I'm like, wow, that's sointeresting to think about what
immediately came up for me andwhat came up for me.
And when you're talking aboutyour code switching and adapting
(16:00):
is how exhausting that must be,that must be to have to do that
all the time.
When you're like in that mode oflearning to operate that way in
the world, that must be tiring.
Elena Armijo (16:10):
It is.
And what I'll say is, you know,the thing I want to own is, is I
have a lot of privilege, right?
Like I have a lot of privilege.
I come from middle class.
I am white passing.
I can walk into a room andpeople aren't even sure what I
am.
Which is holds privilege too.
So I, I want to say that Icertainly don't have it as
exhausting as, as other peoplemight.
(16:30):
And what I notice is that eventhat has been confusing, right?
Like being in the middle andbeing like, well, what does that
mean?
Does that mean that I shouldactually look at how exhausting
it is for me?
Or does that mean, wait aminute, I need to work on my
privilege side and I need tolook at that.
And that, you know, we're inconversations about.
Where you do the work what, whatI've landed in, because frankly,
(16:54):
there's actually not a lot ofresearch out there for biracial
people right now.
Like they're, the conversationis not nuanced enough yet
because we are still inconversations about reparations.
you know, for, for people ofthis country.
And so I think we're going to,it's going to be a long time
before we even get to aconversation around what, what
(17:16):
is the work that biracial peopleneed to do.
And so in the meantime, I'mdoing all the work, right?
I'm looking at my white side andeverything that I need to look
at own heel there, my privilege.
And I'm also looking at my Latinside.
Of what I need to own or what'sbeen lost or what I want to
reclaim.
Right.
And so that work is many layersdeep, but I think the most
(17:39):
important thing, you know, inthe C suite collective, we talk
about a three phase approachwith organizations and the first
step is getting real and that'sactually like what we're doing
right now.
We're getting really real aboutwhat's on the table or what you
know, versus what I know versuslike, what can we, what's the
soup we're swimming in rightnow?
And then the second stage isbelonging to self.
(18:00):
And that's where we spend a lotof time with organizations.
Again, going back into what arethe places that you've forgotten
about?
What are the places that arecosting you something?
What are the places that couldbe exponentially created in a
different mindset that wouldproduce.
It's not necessarily more, butdifferent because more would be
part of the same system, right?
(18:22):
So those are the conversationswe're in.
And I just, I am so appreciativeof you wanting to have this
conversation at the next levelbecause what I said at the end
of the podcast was even you in asystem of white supremacy Is may
not be aware of what it'scosting you.
Right.
Jason Frazell (18:40):
Yeah.
Elena Armijo (18:40):
And, and oppressors or people at the top
of a paradigm that are winning,winning or having power dynamics
are also losing, but it doesn'tlook like that.
And it doesn't, you don'texperience it like that because
there is so much privilege andso many things that are winning
above others, but when you slowit down, You can really find
(19:02):
what it's costing you.
Jason Frazell (19:03):
I'd like to go into that here in a minute,
getting present to what wascoming up for me around that
too.
Yeah.
I want to get into that, butElena, I'm just feeling called
to see if you have any, anyquestions for me so far.
I don't know.
I just, I want to.
Put that out there.
Elena Armijo (19:21):
Well, I'm curious.
How have you experiencedinclusivity and belonging in
your life?
Jason Frazell (19:27):
Yeah.
I've experienced a lack of itfor sure in how I was, not how I
was raised.
My parents are amazing, but Igrew up in.
About as white bread as you can.
I grew up in a suburb of St.
Paul, Minnesota, and I graduatedat a big high school with 550
(19:50):
kids.
And we had one black kid whocame in our senior year.
So I had no.
I had no real experience.
None of my friends were of, ofcolor.
And then I went to, to a collegethat was, it's big, but I, you
know, you naturally grouped withthe demographics.
And I'm glad you asked me thisbecause then I moved to New York
city in 2005.
(20:12):
And I'm like, wait.
There's a lot of different typesof people and these are great
people and realize the theinclusivity of like it in New
York, I started to work withfolks of BIPOC and Started to
become friends with them and theinclusivity is like I didn't
(20:33):
really even I hate the term Idon't see it because I think
that's just To say you don't seesomebody's color is like, this
is my own opinion, just beingreally real, it's kind of
bullshit, because that wouldmean that you're actually not
paying attention to them.
Right, but not only that, butyou're actually like, yeah, but
also like, you're then notacknowledging their actual
identity.
(20:53):
Like, it'd be like, I don't seecolor.
I may not see what it meansabout you, but I am going to see
color.
But like, just getting to knowfolks that way, and then,
Starting to really, my wife andI, and my wife works at a very
inclusive company historically,very modern tech company, where
she started sharing herexperiences with me when she,
(21:15):
she had some folks that weretransitioning or were non
binary, a lot of different likeracial profiles and just talking
about like, It doesn't reallymatter and I never thought it
mattered, but then I realized Icame in with what like most
people do with my own thingbecause it's only my experience
from my childhood and thenearlier in my 20s and how I've
(21:35):
experienced it now, I thinkcoming to now is, is, you know,
the work that I've done as acoach and the trainings that
I've done is, and I've coached alot of folks that are not like
me.
Sex, race gender, gender, orsexual orientation, and just
coming to realize, I'm justspeaking my truth is, we're all
(21:59):
the same, it doesn't reallymatter.
Like it matters and it doesn't,like it matters, your identity
matters greatly, but we all wantthe same stuff, and when you
like, when I can relate topeople that way, and I would
assert that might be true fororganizations too.
in many ways.
And what gets in the way is allthe, all the normal human crap
that gets in the way of mosteverything.
Elena Armijo (22:19):
Yeah.
Well, I love that you said humancrap.
Cause that's actually those arethe things that I think keep the
systems in play.
Right.
And you're right.
I think everybody does enjoydiversity of thought and
expansion and who they are.
And that's, that's really what Iheard in your share.
So thanks for sharing it is thatyou got to experience other
people in unique ways andtherefore see, well, well, what
(22:42):
did it, what did that do to you?
Jason Frazell (22:46):
It definitely expanded my, my like purview is
what I would call it or my, it'slike, you never know until you
walk a mile in somebody else'sshoes.
I've been fortunate to have somepretty deep conversations with
people not like me, but evenjust observing.
And again, just going back to mychildhood is, you know, When
(23:07):
you're raging in such ahomogenous way, I think I just
assumed everybody was like usand like, which is, I think like
again, that the psychology thatis, I think that's a, that's a
basic human structure thathumans, we like to do, right?
Like who's like me.
So I can feel a sense ofbelonging.
Let me connect with those peopleand let me assume some things.
(23:28):
So I don't do a lot of work.
And just knowing that isn'talways the case.
It's been really powerful forme.
Again, like You know, we weregoing to get a two in it.
We went through the same coachtraining program.
My biggest breakthrough wasopening my heart and being like,
you know what?
People, people are amazing,whether they like you or not.
And I don't know that I fullysaw that before.
So that has been a really greatexperience of inclusivity for
(23:49):
me.
And then I'm a lot happierbecause I'm less judgmental.
And it's not necessarily aboutD.
E.
I.
B., but just people in general,which then, of course, because
they're people, they're like,oh, I don't know.
I'm not really sure.
That person, that person isacting, what I would say is,
quote, I'm doing air quotes,quote, unquote, strange, but
like, is it that maybe that'snot strange for them versus
(24:12):
like, oh, that's strange becauseI label it as strange.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Which is a really much more funway to go through life at the
end of the day.
That's what it comes down to.
It's much more enjoyable.
It's what I'm all about.
Elena Armijo (24:25):
Expansion.
Well, and I think that'sactually a piece of what we're
all talking about here, youknow, from expansion in the
world of happiness andfulfillment for everyone.
And I love what you said aboutthe piece where, oh, one second,
it was great.
Well, I guess what I want topick up is the piece where you
(24:45):
said I get to experience otherpeople and expand my mind and
who I am in the world.
And what I love about that isthat is what's possible for
everyone.
If there's diversity of thoughtin the room, including people
who don't traditionally getopportunities to do that.
Jason Frazell (25:01):
And you want
Elena Armijo (25:02):
to be careful.
Then we get into conversationsabout appropriation, right?
And what does that look like,right?
As we expand into that.
But what I, what I think isreally interesting about what
you said is, you know, when welook at power dynamics in the
workplace and people that havebeen told to normalize to one
norm, that's what I was going tosay.
(25:22):
I heard you say like, it was soeasy to think that this was
normal, one way of living I loveall of the beautiful research
that's come out in the past 15years around even neurodiversity
and how we've been treating itas a diagnosis or disorders and
what if we were treating it asgifts.
And that norm or neurotypicalwasn't the centering, right?
(25:45):
Like that wasn't everybody needsto come to the center and meet
in neurotypical land, but thatwe all have differences of
thoughts and that neurodiversityis actually where the gifts are
of innovation and creation andcreativity.
And if it was treated like thatinstead of, Oh, these people
need to learn how to be normal.
Or to meet us in normal, howmuch would change?
(26:05):
And I think it's the same thingwith race.
You know, the thing I want tosay about white supremacy and
organizations is that typicallythe people who have the power
that are at the top,traditionally we've seen that be
white men or white women at thetop.
They, when I say that they'relosing too, I want to be really
clear about what that means.
They're losing out onexperiences of being in
(26:29):
community with people.
Because think about it.
If you're at the top, chancesare.
You're racing pretty hard tostay at the top.
I don't know anybody who's everbeen at the top who doesn't work
really, really hard to not losethe spot at the top.
And that's a normal, that's anormal human response.
But what that does is it causesthe same thing that we're seeing
(26:50):
other people struggle with whoaren't at the top.
Cause you're still burned out.
You're still overworked.
You're still overproducing,you're, it's still costing you
sleep and all the well beingissues that we see in the
coaching land.
You're just coming from adifferent side of the coin.
So you're doing the same things,but the only difference is yours
(27:11):
is to keep the top and otherpeople's are to get to the top
or to get to a place ofequality.
And so if we were having acompletely different
conversation outside of that,and we really were grounded in.
What if all means all and powerdynamics weren't used for
anything other thanAcknowledging what's there and
then being together and bringingpeople along.
(27:34):
What would we create with ROI?
Jason Frazell (27:36):
I want to get into the ROI piece here.
Is that that's kind of the thehead based Impact, but we but I
think you and I are in agreementbased on what we've been talking
about at the end of the day,that is what moves the needle in
a business at the end of theday.
And so I think it's acknowledgedas important before we go into
that part, maybe to wrap thisup, I want to ask you about
(27:59):
blind spots that you see workingwith leaders around this,
because I know you get, you andthe C suite collective, you get
hired a lot for this sort ofwork.
What are some of the, like, theyknow they have A problem or
maybe they don't think it's aproblem, but somebody's like,
Hey, we need to do some workaround this.
But what are the blind spotsthat of leaders that you've
specifically worked with?
(28:20):
And what is the impact for them?
Not just as the leader, but as aperson, like as the whole
person, when they start toacknowledge us, and it might be
working with a coat might belearning just, but like the
impact of all these things, kindof going back to what we talked
about is what are we missing outby not understanding the impact
of that?
And I'd love to hear sometangible examples from people
(28:42):
that you've worked with.
Elena Armijo (28:44):
Yeah.
Well, there's been a coupleleaders.
I'll start with the ones at thetop that maybe didn't have.
Didn't weren't bought in, buttheir company says that they
need to write.
Those people are the ones that Ido work with in that arena.
All the work we do is to slowdown and look at what the impact
is on them first.
Because
Jason Frazell (29:05):
again, Sorry, Elaine.
I want to ask you and you saythey're not bought in.
Can we clarify?
Are they, they don't believeit's important to the bottom
line or like, what is it?
Elena Armijo (29:15):
Conversation.
Yeah.
They don't believe it's boughtinto the bottom line.
It's like, look, I haven't metany leaders at the top that
overtly like hate humans.
Jason Frazell (29:23):
I have not come into
Elena Armijo (29:24):
contact with that person one time, right?
Like they're weird.
That would be weird.
And also,
Jason Frazell (29:29):
yeah,
Elena Armijo (29:32):
and you know, I think they're, they're holding a
lot and there's a lot going onthere, but what I find is that
when they're like, no, thisdoesn't have any impact for our
company.
They're missing some key pointsnot only for their experience as
a leader, how could it godifferently instead of how heavy
it probably is for them at thatmoment.
And I really mean like withoverwhelmed burnout.
stress, all of these things thatwe talk about at the top, being
(29:55):
lonely at the top, not havinganybody in your circles to
mastermind or co create with.
So there's that impact.
But from a business standpoint,you know, some of the things
we're seeing is that when peopledon't want to be in a company
with a toxic culture, they don'twant to They don't care how much
money they're making.
They don't care what title theyhave.
They don't care if they're inthe job of their dreams.
(30:16):
If they are not valued and seen,they're going to leave and
they're going to find anotherplace to be.
That's an alignment with theirvalues.
So the very first measure of ROIthat we can look for is if
people are in seats that theylove and they feel supported and
seen and are in alignment withtheir values, they're probably
going to stay.
And they're going to be some ofyour legacy people.
(30:38):
So when we're recreating culturefrom, from an environment where
people actually want to stay andbuild and grow, that's the first
piece we talk about is legacy.
So what's the legacy that youwant to create and how does that
directly correlate to yourculture?
When we talk about people thatare.
Scene felt heard.
Their voices are welcomed.
(30:58):
Their innovation is welcomed.
We see increases in sales ofproducts.
That's a very specific examplethat I have where all of a
sudden somebody who wasproducing at one level is now
producing at five times thelevel that they were because
they are in flow with theirideas and they're not being shut
down.
So therefore they have expandedtheir wings and their own
(31:21):
leadership to be able to show upto the table and bring more.
And they're more invested againfrom the previous conversation
of their values aligned withyour company.
So now we see people in theright seats.
We see people staying longer andwe see people producing more,
but I would say more from aplace of culture and buy in.
They're bought into the productor whatever piece you're selling
(31:44):
in the world because theybelieve it from a different
place.
So this isn't just more forcapitalism to create more, more,
more in a white supremacystructure.
It is to slow down and actuallysay, do I agree with this
company?
Do I agree with what they'redoing in the world?
Do I want to support it in theworld?
And then how can I bring my, mygifts to the table to do that?
(32:05):
And these are the companies inthe last five years that we've
seen start to edge forward.
These are the companies that inthe middle of a pandemic or in
the middle of a recession or inthe middle of an election year.
Are still doing okay.
And are not like laying peopleoff.
Jason Frazell (32:19):
Yeah.
Elena Armijo (32:20):
So when I talk about ROI, I talk about what are
the business results you want tosee from a holistic, healthy
place, as opposed to the oldmodel of systems and business
first over people.
Jason Frazell (32:33):
Yeah.
I have a lot of thoughts,collecting my thoughts.
Like that was a lot.
That was a lot of, a lot of, alot of powerful stuff there.
I think why don't, why don't wewrap it up?
I'm trying to think how I wantto wrap this powerfully.
I think what I'd, I'd like totalk to anybody listening right
now who feels, feels this insome way, who feels this.
(33:00):
I, I'm sure you've heard this alot too, but I hear this a lot
regarding age.
Yep.
Age.
Generally younger.
And I'm smart, Ivy Leagueeducated many times, like smart,
but they did, there's thisdeference to experience and age.
I coach a lot of folks inconsulting companies and this is
(33:20):
like a thing.
The partners doing their thingand it's kind of like command
and control structure.
And I'm just really present to aconversation, how they said, I
have so many good ideas, but Idon't say anything.
But, and so, so age is somethingwe haven't talked about here.
I think it applies in some wayswhere people feel discriminated
against against their age, ofcourse, as well.
(33:41):
And no matter what it is thatpeople are not feeling like a
sense of belonging, what wouldyou say to them in terms of how
do you practice it goingdifferently?
Hmm.
Elena Armijo (33:55):
Well, that's so good.
I'm thinking about one of theworkshops we ran last week where
we literally had everybody justsit down at the table and we
created some agreements.
Of what the intention was forthe conversation, what the
parameters were for theconversation, what we could
commit to within theconversation, and then getting
some feelings out on the tableand moderating some of the
(34:16):
breakdowns that were happeningin the space.
Okay.
And that's where I would start,you know, like get a mediator to
support you with some of thosethings first and what emerged.
Was really beautifulconversations around what each
side had to bring and where eachside felt unheard
Jason Frazell (34:35):
And
Elena Armijo (34:36):
from there a plan was co created about who they
were going to be for each othermoving forward so just that
simple conversation whether Youknow, it can grow over time into
business results, but startingthere Is the getting real place
Jason Frazell (34:53):
isn't it as you say it, I'm thinking, I'm like,
this is so simple yet.
So not simple.
Yeah.
You're like, wait, wait, hold ona minute.
So I just want to be clear.
You had people sit down, youagreed what the conversation is,
and then you allowed people tobe themselves.
And the magic was amazing,
Elena Armijo (35:09):
right?
And you helped me and then they,you know, and when it got
gnarly, cause it does, we tookbreath, we did somatic work, we
slowed down, but the agreementwas to stay in the conversation.
Yeah.
And nobody left.
Jason Frazell (35:21):
Yeah.
Wow.
Elena Armijo (35:23):
And if they needed to leave, we took a time out and
we said when we were going tocome back.
And then we honored that.
Right?
So there's a lot of ways you canstart, but it really can be just
very simple from the verybeginning to figure out what's
actually going on.
Jason Frazell (35:37):
Yeah.
Now, I think I want to wrap herewith talking to the leaders
listening, people leaders.
Cause it's great to be, it'sgreat to be the person who wants
to feel more of a belonging.
And a lot of this in myexperience in my career is
dependent on how your leadershows up or your, your
management chain.
(35:57):
So I want to talk to theleaders.
Now you hear this all the time.
I hear this all the time.
I want my team to have a senseof belonging.
I want to have their own.
I have a sense of team identity,individual identity.
I want them to be happy here.
And a lot of companies that is abig, like where my wife works,
that's actually a measurement.
that she is specifically scoredon is do you feel like your
manager supports you trust youdo you have a sense of belonging
(36:20):
and can you show up however youwant so for leaders who are
going you know what I know thatthere's people on my team who
don't feel safe or don't feelheard and want to own their
impact and do somethingdifferently what would you say
to those leaders and yes theyneed to be doing their work too
and To me, if the leader canstart to do this and model this,
(36:40):
that's how you can makeexponential change happen over
time.
Because that's how you make thecultural shift.
So I'll just say, if there's aleader here who says, Hey,
Elaine, I want to, I want toreally work with you, or I want
you to work with my team andwith me, on how we can really
create this, this sense ofbelonging on my team.
And all are welcome, diversityof thought, diversity of
identity and all these things,but I'm just not sure how.
(37:04):
Inside of the confines of acompany.
Yeah.
What, what would you like?
Well, yeah.
What, what would, where wouldyou go with that?
Elena Armijo (37:11):
I would say the first thing is let's have a
conversation about what you'rewilling to do.
So that would be the very firstplace to start is as a leader,
what are you willing to do tochange this?
And it's, it is, what are youwilling to do and who are you
willing to be?
So of course, we're looking atbeing in that conversation, but
really like, let's get reallyreal about how far you're
(37:32):
willing to go with thisconversation to create the
vision that you see.
And then when we know what thatvision looks like and where you
want to be, it is starting thehard conversations about what
can you own?
What have you not seen?
What are you scared of?
What can you share transparentlyto model transparency in real
(37:56):
time?
And what can you own about trustbeing broken that has people not
wanting to show up?
Jason Frazell (38:03):
That's
Elena Armijo (38:03):
some of the deeper work to start with and that's
just the start.
Jason Frazell (38:08):
And is that is that generally something
generally something that's oneon one work because they're
gonna They may, they may needto, that's where you'll help
them do their work there so thatthey can show up with the team
in preparation for that.
Elena Armijo (38:19):
Typically we start with one to one, but if it's a
small executive team that wantsto do this work together, we can
do it in group setting as well.
But I think our line in the sandis if the leaders don't want to
do it first, then thisconversation won't change
anything.
So just like you said earlier,They have to go first.
Right.
So that's really where we juststart.
Jason Frazell (38:39):
Yeah.
You know, like otherwise it'slike, yeah, let's just all call
it out.
We're checking a box here.
We're, we're doing what we'rechecking a box.
One of the things that I like toask when things like this come
up or variety thing, what for?
And they're like, Oh, cause itcan help.
Well, like what for like, Oh,Elena, we really want to blank
blank.
You probably have this in, Icall this like a, it's almost a
(39:00):
sales conversation.
That we really want to blank,blank, blank.
Elena Armijo (39:03):
Mm hmm.
Jason Frazell (39:04):
What for?
Elena Armijo (39:05):
Yeah, exactly.
What will that lead to?
Jason Frazell (39:07):
Yeah.
And then they're like, they'relike, wait, nobody's ever asked
me what for.
It's just the thing we'resupposed to do.
Elena Armijo (39:10):
Yeah, exactly.
Jason Frazell (39:12):
They're like, we want, so we lower our attrition.
Is that really all you care?
Is that, is that the only thingyou want?
And so it's, at the end of theday, I just, I love the work you
and the C Suite Collective aredoing around, like what you just
said is helping leaders owntheir impact and there's always
something.
That leaders can own it doesn'tmean they will and by they I'm
(39:34):
speaking to myself as wellleader in many ways of my life
And so for the leaders that arelistening, what's a way that
they can start the work?
If somebody's just thinkingright now, cause like I know how
my brain works, I don't knowabout you, but like listening to
a podcast, I'm like, Ooh, I feelconvicted.
I feel seen.
Oh, there's things I can own.
(39:55):
Like I can go talk to Elenatomorrow, but today I'm in the
car driving home to see myfamily.
What's like, how do people getpresent to that?
Cause you mentioned a couple ofthings you mentioned, what can
we own, but also like, what do Inot know?
Elena Armijo (40:07):
Yeah.
What do you not know?
Which is a hard question to askon your own, right?
Because we don't know what wedon't know, but you could ask,
what do you, what is, what haveyou been sitting on?
That you're afraid of addressingwhat's been in the space that
you know is there the elephantin the room that you haven't
touched or that you've tried totouch, but you've given up on or
(40:28):
you're resigned about, thatcould be another great coaching
question.
What are you resigned aboutright now?
What do you think is not goingto shift?
And then getting really clear onwhat the choices are around that
to move forward towards yourvision.
Jason Frazell (40:42):
Beautiful.
Elena, thank you so much.
I'm really glad we were able tocome in, get deeper on this
conversation.
Thank you for being with me asI'm just asking the things that
over here, I may, I may notknow.
No, that I may not know.
I really appreciate you sharingyour truth about both your past,
what you're doing now and the,the idea that like one thing I
(41:03):
think we, we do have in commonis we have a commitment to this
and I hope that this isinspiring for everybody
listening and that you all goout.
And do something to make achange in your life or your
organization.
If you're a leader, or if you'relike being willing, like you
said, being willing to do thework yourself so that you can
show up in that room, no matterhow you identify and go, I
(41:23):
belong here because that, and Iwill leave with this, that's the
feeling I've had my whole life.
Elena Armijo (41:32):
Yeah.
Jason Frazell (41:33):
White guy, white guy in sales.
I'm like, you know what?
I'm selling other white peoplein sales.
This is fine.
I belong, I've never walked in aroom and like that person's
dangerous, that person'sdangerous.
And so this is the feeling I'vehad.
And I want that, I wanteverybody to have that feeling
because I didn't choose this,just like nobody else chose how
they were born and this is thereality.
So I think it's important andthe diversity of thought and
(41:55):
action and differentperspectives, perspectives will
make such a difference for this.
world.
Such a difference for thisworld, which is what matters the
most.
So thank you, Elena.
Elena Armijo (42:06):
That's what I believe.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Jason Frazell (42:10):
All right.
Thanks so much.
Take care.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of Talking to Cool
People with Jason Frizzell.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please tell your friends, follow
us on Instagram and Facebook,and give us a shout out, or take
a moment to leave a review oniTunes.
If something from today'sepisode piqued your interest and
you'd like to connect, email usat podcast at jasonfrizzell.
(42:34):
com.
We love hearing from ourlisteners because you're cool
people too.
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