Steven Matthew Clark - Coach, Facilitator, Founder-Awakening Exchange, Incarcerated Experiencer - Talking to Cool People w/ Jason Frazell

Episode Transcript
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Jason Frazell (00:11):
My guest on the show today is Steven Matthew
Clark.
Steven Matthew Clark is somebodythat I got to meet and see speak
about, I guess it was June now,Steven, and I, he came and spoke
at a community that we're both apart of, and I'm going to call
it out.
It's exchange.
It is a place where facilitatorsand coaches, people that want to

(00:32):
make a difference in the world.
And as John Berghoff, thefounder says,

Steven Matthew Clark (00:36):
be the.

Guide on the side, not necessarily always the
sage on the stage, which is alittle bit ironic as a podcast
host, but I saw Steven speak onwhat he speaks on, what we're
going to talk about today.
And I just thought, man, that'ssomebody I'd love to have in my
podcast and get to know betteron a personal basis and also
have all you get to know him.
So Steven, welcome.

(00:57):
Good morning.
It is your East coast.
I'm East coast.
We're recording this.
Monday, August 14th.
It's almost 11 a.
m.
So good morning to you.

Yeah, good morning to you.
Thank you.
First off, thank you forinviting me to be on the show.
Thank you for having an interestin the work that I am doing.
And as you named, it was reallyjust an honor and a privilege to
meet you on the ExchangeApproach.
And really just an honor and aprivilege to have the past few
conversations that we've had.
So thank you.

(01:25):
Appreciate it.

Flatterly, flattery will get you everywhere
in the podcast.
Do I say that?
I'm kidding.
Sort of kidding.
So Steven, let's start.
Well, I want to say this foreverybody that we're going to
talk about, we're going to talkabout something that I've never
really addressed on the showbefore.
And quite the same level we've,we've talked about it in the
past with a few guests, butyeah, like, I guess just kickoff

(01:48):
scene, what would you like theaudience to know about you?

Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
My name is Steven Matthew Clarkas Jason shared with you.
And I think one of the thingsthat I'd like everybody to know
about me is I am on a per I'm aperson that's actually doing the
very best I can to own in a tonefor the past choices that I made

(02:13):
that landed me in a maximumsecurity prison.
And I've been in prison now,Jason, for the past 18 years in
2007, after serving almost twoyears in the county jail, I
received a 43 year prisonsentence for murder.
And I think it's important to betransparent and put all my cards

(02:37):
on the table and be completelyhonest and vulnerable with you
and with everybody in the worldabout the reasons, the causes
and the conditions and the whysof my incarceration.
Yeah, I

wanted to address something that the first time we
talked, I said, this is blowingmy mind.
You're in prison right now on agood internet connection and
we're on zoom together.
And is, that is something thatyou and I talked about is a
little bit unique to thesituation you're in and the
system that you're in.
I'd love to spend a minutetalking about some of the things

(03:15):
that you have access to and someof the things you do.
And this is going to lead usinto the work you're doing.
That is not the norm is what youtold me.
So like, let's, let's go there.
Let's talk about

that.
So I, if it's all right, I'dlike to just drop a little bit
of an anchor.
Yeah.
Circle back to just fulltransparency of why I'm here and
then why I'm able to do whatwe're doing here today.
So in 2006, I owned a mortgagecompany.

(03:46):
I owned a call center and a tshirt company on the outside,
and I had experienced a littlebit of success.
And, unfortunately, my life atthe same time was also spiraling
out of control because ofalcohol and drug use, and I hung
out with some pretty roughpeople.

(04:07):
And on Valentine's Day night of2006, I went out to a strip club
to meet a couple of gentlementhat had been calling me, and we
stayed and drank.
I think we stayed till about 2in the morning, and we went back
to my home, and...
A fight occurred between myselfand another gentleman that was

(04:30):
at my house that happened to bea friend of mine.
The third gentleman left my homebecause he assumed that this
gentleman would want him to joinin beating me up, or I would
want him to pull this gentlemanoff from me.
And when things became trulyviolent, and what I perceived as

(04:52):
a threat to my life, I made achoice to grab a gun that I had,
and my friend ended up losinghis life.
And unfortunately, at the stateof mind I was in, I sat on my
couch, I remember Jason, forprobably 15 minutes and
contemplated what do I do?

(05:12):
I was scared to death.
All I could think about was if Icalled the police, they're
probably going to shoot me andkill me.
I was so, I think, I was, I wassilvered up by the moment, but
at the same time, I had so muchadrenaline and stress pumping
through my system, I couldn'tthink in a linear fashion.
And I made a choice thatreally...

(05:35):
contributed to where I am today.
It turned a self defense caseinto a murder case.
I left my home.
I made a decision to try tocover it up.
And here I am getting arrestedand going in and telling the
police what happened.
It didn't matter that.
point in time because I hadalready made the choice to do

(05:56):
what I did throughout my So whyam I at where I'm at today?
I want to share that witheverybody not and I ask
everybody if you're gonna judgeme, that's okay People judge
people all the time.
I completely understand at thesame time I just wanted to say
to everybody that's listening inI never thought i'd be in a

(06:18):
situation where I hurt somebody.
I never thought i'd be in asituation where Somebody lost
their life Because of me, Inever, ever, ever had any
conditioning or any know how howto handle a situation like that.
I was so freaked out and sosideways because of the alcohol

(06:39):
and the drugs that I had in mysystem.
The choice that I made wascompletely out of fear and
honestly it was out of selfpreservation.
I thought I was going to go toprison and...
I confided in my uncle.
He said I should never have leftmy home and I'd probably be
going away.
And that's what really promptedthe choice to try to cover
things up because I rememberseeing like Shawshank

(07:01):
Redemption.
You seen that flick?
Oh, absolutely.
Remember, remember the scenewhere Andy Dufresne, he gets
like surrounded by the sistersand like brutally, brutally
raped, he ends up in theinfirmary.
And that's not the only we seethese most shocking videos and
we see these other movies and TVshows that portray, portray

(07:22):
prison as a pretty violent placewhere people get raped and
killed, which it is and it canbe.
Yeah.
So those things were in myconsciousness.
So I get sentenced, I go tocourt.
I do my best to tell the truthof everything that happened.
It's only me.
I had the best attorney youcould ever imagine.
Court appointed attorney by thetime my case came up, after

(07:46):
paying for my house for monthsand my bills and all the stuff
that I had, I had very littleleft and court appointed
attorney did such a wonderfuljob.
I provided him 35 witnesses andhe called one, me so that was my
defense, me.
And the one person that wouldhave really been substantial

(08:08):
that was writing me inCumberland when I was in the
jail is the victim's mom.
And she's been an ally for meever since I was arrested, which
is really remarkable.
Wow.
Yeah, so getting up here, youknow, getting sentenced, one of
my first visitors was Felicity.

(08:31):
Yeah.
Rob's mom.
And you knew

her prior to this all happening because she was
your

friend's mother?
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
This guy, you know, this is aguy that I went to Mexico with,
that I went out to snow bird,snowboarding with, that I had
been to a bunch of differentplaces with, you know, it wasn't
somebody that I had hatredtowards.
We had a little bit of a fallingout where I had fired him from
my mortgage office, probably sixmonths to seven months before,

(08:58):
which I think he carried someresentment and anger.
Yeah.
But his mom, I mean, along theway, her notion, her support was
she was just really discouragedand disgusted with the way that
I was prosecuted and the waythat the state presented the
case, if that makes sense.
Mm hmm.
So they presented him as apeaceful, kind hearted soul when

(09:20):
he had maliciously attacked hismother and his family right
before this, who, he had aviolent record.
Of many different assaults andthem presenting that case like
that, they presented me as somekind of gang leader and is a
just out of control person.

(09:41):
And some of that's true.
I mean, absolutely.
There's some truth to a littlebit of that.
I was out of control with myalcohol and drug use.
So when I got up here, shevisited me, you know, we held
hands at the visiting table andshe looked me in the eye and she
said, I forgive you.
Wow.
Yeah, and...

Right away, once you were where, and then this is
where you

are now.
Right away, you know, it took alittle bit for her to get
approved, Jay.
Jason, it took a little bit forher to get approved to come
visit me, and in that time, Iremember, like, I got here, I
knew immediately I needed totake significant responsibility
for the choices, I, you know,my, my friend, his life ended.

(10:24):
I couldn't even pick up thephone like a normal human being
and call the police because ofmy lifestyle.
And in addition, I affected myfamily.
I affected so many people, man.
And the guilt and the shame ofthat shit was heavy.
It was heavy.

(10:46):
So, her coming up and holding myhands, it really instilled hope
in me.
And it, I think what happened inmy consciousness, I knew, like,
I owed my friend that wasdeceased, I owed her, I owed my
family, 125% of my all totransform my life and to become

(11:14):
the man that God intended me tobe.
Yeah.
Wow, Stephen, that is,

that is powerful.
I have so many questions, but Iwant to start

with, where do I want to start?
I want to,

Go back to the trial.
Just did you plead guilty or notguilty?

I pleaded not guilty.
I pleaded not guilty.
My case was a self defense case.
He was, he was the initialaggressor in my home.
The third person that left toldthe police that this guy was
getting ready to attack me.
He told the police that myfriend that's deceased was the
aggressor in the case.

(11:52):
Aggressor.
But what screwed me up wasleaving my home.
Exactly what my uncle said whenI went to his house that
morning.
You know, we were on the way,way in.
He lived in South.
Portland and in Maine, there'sPortland and South Portland.
So I went to my mom's, I drovean H2 back then.
And like, I thought the policeare going to pull me over.

(12:14):
They're going to kill me.
They know what's going on.
Ian was, which was a guy's name.
I anticipated he had called thepolice.
So I go to my uncle's, myuncle's my best friend and share
with my uncle, you know, whathad happened.
My uncle said, Stevie.
We need to go to the policestation.
So we got in the car.
We're heading to the policestation.

(12:34):
I remember we're not even, we'reprobably like three blocks from
the police station.
And he said, I just want to letyou know, you're not going home
this morning.
He said, well, what do you mean?
He said, you're not going home.
He said, buddy, you should neverhave left your house.
And when he said that, I'm like,what does that mean?
He said, you're probably goingto be charged with something
like manslaughter.

(12:55):
They're going to charge you andthey're going to hold you for a
while.
And I go, How long could thatbe?
He's like, probably 10 years.
You could probably go away for10 years.
And I said, you know, lookingback, it's like 10 years felt
like forever, you know?
Yeah.
There was no, it's so weird howlike the brain works in Fight,

(13:16):
Flight, or Freeze.
There was no rational thought itwas almost like an immediate
reaction of like, turn aroundand drop him off, you know, and
then start making poor choices.
Yeah.
Wow.
So,

but you, you did end up going to the station, you
turned yourself

in.
No, they ended up, they ended uparresting me, Jason.
They ended up arresting me sixdays later.
Oh, so you're, when you were

with your uncle, you didn't end up going, you
didn't turn yourself in.
They started to investigate andthen they...

That's right on you.
Okay, I turned the I turned thetruck around, dropped him off,
made him make a promise to methat he never saw me and try to
make it all try to make it allgo away.
And all I did was make ahorrible situation worse, not
only for myself, but foreverybody involved.
Yeah, because then your uncle

would be an accessory after the fact, right?
Like if you know something that

Oh man, everybody.
Yeah, I just, yeah.
I think

that that brings so much damage.
Yeah.
Well that brings up a,

just a,

a general statement is how our brain, like
in those types of, like,arguably about as high as stress
as you're ever gonna have insome way.
Like other than actual life ordeath, which your brain thinks
that is a life or death thing,right?
Like your life is over as youknow it, as like the decisions
that we make in the moment.

(14:44):
That you, you know, like sittinghere today, you're like, that
was such a, that was the justnot the right decision to make
for the outcome, but how, again,like how we can, most of us can
point at those things, not ashigh as stakes, but there's many
times that we make thosedecisions.
We're like, why do we say thatthing to that person?
Why do we operate that way?
Why do we show up in thatspecific way?

(15:04):
That's just, it's crazy.
Well, Steven, I want to first ofall, thank you for your
vulnerability and sharing that.
And that what I, what I reallyliked about, well, and I want to
see if there's anything else youthink you'd like, or anything
else you'd like to share with usaround the background before we
talk about what you're up tonow, because I'm just going to
say it when I, when I saw youspeak, I said, story is

(15:24):
fascinating, but like reallywhat.
What I want to spend themajority of our time is what are
you doing now?
Because this is their, theirstory of redemption and how
you're making differences.
Incredible.
And what else, is there anythingelse you think we should know
about you to really set thestage for what's what you're
doing now and what you've beendoing over the last, I guess, I
guess it would be what's 2000.

(15:45):
So you've been now incarceratedfor 17 16

years.
This is my, I'm starting my 18thyear.
Your 18th year.

Yeah.
And you've been in, and you'rein Maine at a maximum security
prison, and this is where you'vebeen the entire time.

That's where I've been the entire time,
my friend.
How far are

you, how far are you from

Portland?
Goodness gracious, about an hourand 40 minutes.
So if you got

family there, that's actually not a terrible,
the visiting is not terrible tocome and see you.
And.
They know sometimes people endup in

far, far away.
The drive isn't terrible.
The visits are terrible.
The the way that visits are setup, it's, it's inhumane.
But that's, that's a wholenother issue and a whole nother
topic.
We could do a whole podcast onprison visitation.
I think we, I

think we will.
I think we're definitely goingto do that.
But yeah.
So Steven, is there anythingelse kind of, kind of the
background here before we talkabout what's, what you've been
up to?

Yeah, I think so I came into the prison
in 2007 and you said onreception for a couple weeks you
come out and it's kind of scarylike what am I going to have to
longest yard somebody off adinner seat, you know, to prove
myself because you don't knowwhat to expect walking into a
prison and it's like kind offreaky because it's like, you

(16:58):
know, what's going to happen?
Is this going to happen?
So you put on the big front, abig facade, which yeah.
Everybody does when they come inbecause they're scared.
It's based on fear.
Yeah.
Well, they

actually, they show that in the Shawshank,
right?
When he comes in and they, andthey, I forget the name they
call people that like the, thenew person and they try and
scare the crap out of you.
I would imagine that's fairlyaccurate.

Yeah, you see that in Longish Yard too
with Adam Sandler, the oldfootball movie where he T bows
the guy right out of the seat,the old Indian fella, trying to
gain the quote unquote respect,right?
Yeah, yeah.
So I think what's important toknow, I got here and I knew
immediately, like I had set insegregation for two weeks, so

(17:43):
it's like a 24 hour lockdown.
When you first come in, you getout for 15 minutes to shower.
I think you get like one phonecall a week.
You might get outside for likean hour a week.
I just say to myself, like,really just contemplating and.
Looking in the mirror and I madea choice and that choice was I

(18:04):
need to own this I need to turnmy life around and I need to do
everything I can To understandthe whys of my behavior and why
am I setting here with a 43?
Year prison sentence when mylife was pretty good at one
point in time and that's been mymission since you know I got I

(18:27):
immediately got involved.
I had a friend here that I'dactually known from middle
school and had played baseballwith, had played football with,
and he ended up here, he gotmixed up with drugs and did a
robbery, and he ended up here,but he was a part of the NAACP
here at the prison, soimmediately upon coming off

(18:48):
reception, I got involved withthe NAACP NAACP as the prison
branch secretary.
And started immediately doingservice work.
I started working on issues ofsegregation, abolition we had a
pretty serious segregation unitback in the day.
People would be down there for afew years and it was just
screwing up their mental health.

(19:10):
Yeah.
So.
You know, really getting intoservice from the beginning.
And then I went I remember Iwent out back and I said, I need
some help here.
I need to really get some helpwith substance abuse.
I just want to share this sopeople understand the context of
what prison looks like in a lotof prisons.

Well, can I ask a question about the substance
abuse,

Stephen?
You got it, my friend.
So you

would say you had, you had drugs and alcohol
issues.
Obviously, once you'reincarcerated, even in the
county, like that all went away,you had to, you had, you were
obviously not using anythinganymore because you didn't have
access to it.
Were you, did you have to gothrough like withdrawal and

did you have like, yeah, like,

yeah.
So you were,

so you were in a rough place.
Well, just put it this way.
I was drinking up to a bottle ofJameson's a day.
I was sniffing about an eightball of cocaine a day and
chasing it all down with abouteight oxy 80s a day.
Oh my God.
Yeah.

Yeah.
So you had a very tough go of itwhen your access to that all

went away.
Well, there's, there's somethingcalled acute withdrawal.
As we know, acute withdrawal islike getting sick, can't sleep.
You're puking.
You're, yeah.
You know, things are coming outof both ends of you and you
just, you're in pain.
Yeah.
Then you have something calledpost acute withdrawal syndrome.
Post acute withdrawal.
So withdrawal syndrome is whenyour nervous system is rewiring

(20:39):
itself.
So the crazy part of post acutewithdrawal syndrome, the
symptoms of that are inabilityto think clearly, emotional
overreactions, problems,managing stress, physical
coordination, problems, sleepdisturbances.
memory problems.
So think about this, this lastsix months to 24 months, people

(21:00):
don't tell you about that.
So your brain is completely likeyour neurons and your neural
pathways.
They're all rewiring and they'recoming back to a place of
baseline.
So people don't talk about that.
So that's why so many peoplefeel in recovery because they
start.
feeling like a little bit of aphysical coordination problem

(21:22):
where they can't sleep orthey're having these emotional
overreactions and they say thisis not worth it.
I'm going back to drinking andusing because they don't educate
the majority of people aboutthat.
They just say you have aspiritual malady.
You can fix it with this, thisand this.
And they don't talk about thescience.
So people understand themselves.

(21:42):
So I reach out to substanceabuse, finally find enough
humility within myself to say Ineed help.
Reach out, get back in the maila little piece of paper, Jason,
about half the size, half of anenvelope, and it says on there,
Mr.
Clark, thank you for reachingout to the Substance Abuse

(22:05):
Department.
When you have two years or lessleft on your sentence, please
reach back out.
There's nothing we can do foryou right now.
Our services are only extendedto those with two years or less
on their sentence.
So, you know, as somebody that'sstill a logical guy, you know,
who's struggling, you know, Isaid, what the F?

(22:26):
Are you kidding me right now?
I'm, I'm...
I get this long prison sentence,I need help, and you're sending
me back this piece of paper thatsays I can't get that help until
I have two years left on mysentence.
Is this what prison is?
Is it, am I supposed to suffer,am I supposed to be in this

(22:49):
constant state of justhopelessness for the next 41
years?
And, I'll tell you Jay, Ibelieve in divine intervention,
I believe in synchronicities, Ibelieve in source energy always
working for us.
I went back to my cell and Ireflected on that piece of
paper, like, what am I gonna do?

(23:10):
Yeah.
And, that same day I walked overto a friend here, he was, He had
his stuff together and, and veryrespectable guy here at the
prison he had been in for a longtime.
I walked over to his cell.
I'm talking to him and I lookdown and I see a book that says
substance abuse counseling.
And I said, what the heck?

(23:30):
I reached down another book,substance abuse counseling.
And then there was something onmental health.
I said, I got two questions.
I said, first question is, can Iread these?
And second question is why theheck do you have these?
And he said, Stephen, I'm partof the college program here.
And I'm studying to be asubstance abuse counselor.

(23:51):
I said, holy cow, well, this issomething I'm really interested
in.
How do I do this?
Cause I, cause I just tried toget some help.
They're not going to give it tome.
So I think I have to probably doit myself.
So divine intervention, Jay,that's how it all began.
That's what that, that's astart.
Well,

Stephen, thank you for all that.
Let's take a brief break.
And when we come back, we'regoing to talk about.
Your mission, what you do also,your, what you've educated, what
you've done through educatingyourself is quite amazing too,
but we'll be back right afterthis.

Thank you.

(25:09):
All right, Steven.

We're back.
We've set the stage.
And I told everybody this isgoing to be a little bit
different than what we're usedto here.
Thank you for yourvulnerability.
As you can tell, I just want tosay this, Stephen, I'm sure you
hear this all the time.
The first time I heard youspeak, the old, the, the way I
could describe you as like oneof the most gentle souls, you
must be described as a gentlesoul often by people, like the

(25:34):
way you speak, your.
Your presence on camera, youjust come across as very gentle.
And I'm curious, as we set thisup for the second part of our
conversation, is that who you'vealways been at your core?
You, you always consideryourself a gentle soul, and then
you just kind of.
Like I said, the drugs, thealcohol, the success, whatever

(25:55):
kind of got on top of that, oris this a new, are we looking,
are we talking to a new Steven?

Yeah, I think there's, there's probably
two, two parts to that.
I think deep within myself, I'vealways been a gentle soul, a
child of God, a child of source,you know, another brother and
sister.
Of everyone on this planet.
Unfortunately, my own experienceis that the trauma that I went
through, like I grew up in anIrish household and he didn't

(26:23):
talk about anything in thehousehold, outside of the
household.
It was a no, no.
So I think.
The compression of all thosethings that contributed to my
shadow complex all those thingsthat were there.
I Numb them all those pains allthose dysfunctions all those

(26:44):
things that I've been feeling II numb them through alcohol and
drugs and I think what came withthat is like ego and roughneck,
you know, I was just sharingthis with somebody My dad wasn't
really there, right?
My dad was a serious alcoholicand you know, I know that I know

(27:04):
now like what I know, I thinkthe lineage and how people grow
up his dad, he learned from him,he learned from him, you know,
the, it goes down the familyline and we need to catch that
and realize it to break thatchain.
My brother's done a really goodjob of that.
So my dad not having that adultmale role model in my life that

(27:26):
I really, really respected.
I ended up bonding with a lot ofother guys around that had
similar situations.
They grew up with their mom, youknow, they grew up with a single
mom.
And our idea of like, gettingtogether was like, getting
together, you know, drinkingbeers, doing beer funnels, doing
the crazy stuff, going swimmingand all that stuff, but also a

(27:48):
lot of fist fighting.
And it's so weird, it's like,who the heck fist fights for
fun?
I don't know.
So, we did.
It's just so so whacked out.
It's like I look back on it now.
I'm like, this is insane.
You know, it was it reallyinsane, but I hung out with a
guy, a group of guys, it wastoxic masculinity, we didn't

(28:09):
know how to express ourselves,we expressed ourselves when we
were angry with our fists, youknow, we'd fight our, we'd fight
each other, and it was like fun,it was like, alright, we're
fighting right now.
And then we'd shake hands afterand give each other a hug, but
that's kind of the culture thatI grew up in, you know, and then
it, then it turned into we'd goto parties, like rave parties.

(28:31):
And we'd go to clubs andconcerts together.
And then we kind of just builtlike this culture and this
heartbeat within ourselves.
So that took shape and that taketook form, you know, in
essentially, I think whathappened is.
That gentle, kind, loving,caring soul, that true, true

(28:53):
spirit was wearing a mask.
Yeah.
Is wearing a mask for a longtime and I just want to say
this, I still, I mean, I try tobe as gentle and kind and I try
to operate from my heart.
It drives some of the girlscrazy because I'll say, I love
you.
You know, I really do.
I can feel it in my heart andthey're like, Oh my gosh, you
know, this is inappropriate.

(29:14):
And I say, well, I get it, butI'm living in a place of honesty
and vulnerability.
And I would be a coward if Ididn't tell you how I was
feeling today, I need to behonest with you because that's
where I need to be in my life.
And I do it with gentleness.
But the reality, the reality nowis I just try to be the very

(29:38):
best person that I can be thevery And the person that you see
showing up is the person that Iam, and at the same time I still
have struggles, man.
I live in a place that it's sucha toxic environment, it's crabs
in the bucket, you know, theysee you doing well, they want to
pull you down, staff getsresentful, but who you see is

(29:58):
who I am.
Of course, there's other parts.
You don't see like the, the, Istill react.
Sometimes I still get fired upsometimes.
I mean, I'm not fighting peopleand screaming at people.
I still say things that areinappropriate sometimes.
I'm like, Hey baby, I love you.
And I think you're beautiful andI can feel it in my heart.
Just go with it.

Just go with it.
Oh, that's good.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Thanks, Steven.
Let's let's talk about, let'sstart with your educational
journey, your educationaljourney, some of the things that
you've done to, to, I

don't like the word better

yourself, to like learn some things that you're
interested in so that you can doeven better work out in the
world.
Then we'll, we'll wrap with kindof like your mission and what
you're up to.
So.
And I say this as a fellowcoach.
I know you're a certified coach.
I know that's something thatyou've taken the time to do.
That's no small feat.
And you've done all sorts ofother educational things.
So let's talk about what you'vekind of, how I, let's say how

(31:04):
you've invested into yourself.

I'd love to, I'd love to.
I'd like to ask you a questionif that's okay.
Oh gosh.
You've kind of inspired me alittle bit with getting to know
you, you know, it always takestime to get to know somebody a
little bit before you startbuilding that psychological
safety as we've learned about anexchange approach.
What inspired you to get intothe work that you're doing with

(31:29):
coaching and helping people andseeing people as who they really
are?
Yeah, thank you.

I'll be totally upfront and honest about it as
well.
Part of, I do love making adifference for people.
I would be, and anybody whoknows me well would know this, I
would be lying if I told youthat it wasn't a really good way
for me to get my needs met aswell, because I am a complete
extrovert, I am quite positive,I really like people, most

(32:02):
people.
You know, there's like peoplethat are like, I don't like most
people, but I do things withpeople.
I'm like the person who, I dothings with people and actually
like people.
Which is, yeah, yeah, yeah,Steven's raising his hand, same
way, which is, my friend Marie,she has a great saying, she's
like, she's like, I think peopleare punks and I just don't like
them, I'm like, I think peopleare punks but I love them

(32:24):
anyway, that's kind of like mystyle, so it's really a good fit
for me, from like a careercoaching facilitation, speaking,
training, I, what inspired me,Is I hired a coach about five
years ago and you know, a lot ofcoaches, I'm sure this is a very
common story, very common storyas I was in my corporate career

(32:48):
and I had a great life and Istill have a great life, but
there was nothing wrong.
Like if you looked at it, likethere was nothing wrong.
What was wrong was I felt like Iwasn't doing what I was put here
to do.
And I think I've gotten a lotcloser to that.
And that's always a work inprogress.
Depends on the day.
Whether today is the day that'sthe day I'm doing the work I'm
meant to do.
And I think today is one ofthose days, but the, it was that

(33:11):
I hired a coach and because Ididn't know, so I came from a
background in selling and workedat some big companies, some
smaller companies.
I never had a coach, so I didn'treally know what that meant.
Like I was an athlete growingup.
So I obviously understand thatcontext, but I don't even know
what it meant, Steven.
And then I met somebody.
And she's like, oh, and I docoaching work.
I'm like, what's that?

(33:32):
I'm like, oh, this is good.
This person is going to tell mewhat to do with my life.
Now she's going to keep me frombeing bored and like be a better
person.
And she's going to tell me howto do it.
We know that the coaching is notsomebody telling you how to do
it.
And that's what happened.
So I worked, I worked with thatamazing coach for quite a while.
And then I remember I said, whatdo you think about, I want your
opinion, not your coaching, I'mspeaking to this because it

(33:54):
felt, I want your opinion,Steven, not as a coach, but as
like a fellow coach.
Would this be something youthink I'd be good at?
She's like, I think it'd beamazing at it.
Here's the program I wentthrough.
I went to an observation.
It was an in person program inNew York.
Did that program side hustled mycoaching practice, got some
very, very low paying clientswho I'd loved.

(34:15):
But as most coaches do, like itwas, this is not a I was not
going to be able to go home andreport to my wife that I found
my next lucrative career.
Let's put it that way.
I love that you're laughing.
You're like, yeah, that, thatresonates.
And then halfway through mycoach program about six months
into, I went full time.
And started this podcast sixmonths later, which is more like
a fun hobby, but it's kind oflike part of my brand and coach.

(34:38):
I do facilitation.
I do training.
I love watching people makechanges quickly.
That's my favorite coaching.
Isn't always that training isusually that like communication
style training, but I justreally like helping people get
what they, I'll tell you what Ilove about coaching the most.

(34:59):
And I don't know if thisresonates for you.
You get to, I think you get tosee a lot more of the real
people.
And you get to work on stuffthey actually care about.
Yeah.
As opposed to being a manager orsomething where I was having
this conversation with a client,he runs a, he runs like a
recruiting office.
He's like 45 employees.

(35:20):
He's like, I'm well aware thatthese people don't really care.
They care about the paycheck.
They care about creating alifestyle for their families.
But do they really care aboutwhat we're And like knowing
that, but my clients andprobably the clients you work
with as well.
They generally bring the thingsthey actually care about, which
is really fun.
And you get to know people and Ilike building relationships.
I think you and I are similar inthat.

(35:41):
So that's why I do it.
I love it.
Not every single day, everysingle minute of every day.
And there's times when like canbe a little tiring, but then
there's other days when it'sabsolutely magical.
Like when you, I don't know ifyou had this experience when you
have a client who hired you fora thing and then they get that
thing and you're like, you'relike, I could have done without
you.
I'm always like, I'm like, Idid.

(36:02):
I disagree with that.
I think you could probably do itbecause it's naturally you.
But maybe I accelerated thatalong, or maybe you had more fun
doing it that way.
That's just super rewarding.
That's why.
Yeah, I love it.

Yeah, thank you.
That's beautiful.
I really appreciate, appreciateyou sharing that.
And I, a lot of it, a lot of itresonates with me and my friend.
So, yeah.
But, but for

you, every minute of every day of coaching is
perfect for you, right?
Like every, never, no, I'm

kidding.
Every, no, I think what I'mrealizing in every experience
that's showing up in my life,there's, there's a silver lining
in it that I have to look for.
And sometimes, you know, some ofthese guys around here that are
just angry and still in theirheads, they're, they're some of
my biggest coaches in the world.
Same time.
I work with some of the greatestcoaches in the world, many from

(36:47):
an exchange approach, many fromHartmouth, many from different
backgrounds that.
are into quantum healing andenergy healing and just really
becoming more and morefascinated with the human
connection, the inspiration andthe support that comes through
the human connection and how,when we align with each other

(37:10):
and when we have a good coach orwhen we're coaching someone, how
we can actually prosper so muchmore and how we can succeed
because of that, it's a fourletter word, my man.
Love you have somebody besideyou, even if you're paying them
500 bucks an hour and they'reloving you, they, they, they
want to make the money, but theystill love you.

(37:31):
They want to see you succeed.
I think that's what makes agreat coach is that coach really
loves their client and loves tosee them succeed.
Yeah, that's the stuff dreamsare made of right there, my man.

No, it is.
But last thing I'll say in thisis what's interesting about that
is.
You get trained through my coachtraining program.
Like you don't want to becomeattached because, and I wouldn't
say I'm attached, like in anunhealthy way, but God, I do

(38:04):
love some

of my

clients.
And I've had a few clients thatlike, we don't work together for
whatever reason, like, like theygot what they wanted there, they
run to something else.
That stings a little bit.
Not, not because I need themoney, but because like, I'm a
senior face every other week or,you know, like that's.
That's a thing.
That's a thing for me for sure.
And I, and I'm very aware of it.
So I need to watch that becausethat getting too attached to

(38:25):
your clients is also nothealthy.
Or

friends or, or girls or, or anybody or
anything.
Right.
And somebody just said it to me,like I would just went through a
situation with somebody that Ireally considered a dear friend
and something happened, amiscommunication and versus a
conversation.
She had made a decision in mystandpoint was like, Hey, I'm
your friend.

(38:48):
I care about you.
Let's have a conversation and acoach, my dear friend, coach
Donna.
She said, Stephen, God put somepeople in our lives for seasons.
Some puts, he puts some peoplein our lives for the longterm or
she, whatever you want toidentify God is.
And.
I truly believe that.
I mean, we can extend an olivebranch to everybody.

(39:09):
We can be here and just be love,and not everybody's gonna want
that, and everybody's going, we,like, my friend Loren says from
Sutra, he says that we all showup in these spaces, like, I have
certain things going on youdon't know about, you have
certain things going on I don'tknow about, And what allows us
to know about those things is apsychological safety that we
build our relationship where Ican open up and say, Hey, I'm

(39:32):
really suffering with this rightnow.
I'm really going through thisright now.
And that's what screwed up aboutthe world a little bit.
My man is We have gotten to aplace where like people aren't
even present enough for peopleto really get into that stuff to
have psychological safety.
So that's one thing that Ialways strive to do a better

(39:55):
job.
I feel miserably a lot of times,but I always keep that in my
mind and in my consciousness.
I'm like, I need to be presentfor people because there's a lot
of people that aren't presentfor them.

Yeah.
Presence.
Yeah.
Somebody, another person on thispodcast, I remember who it was.
They'd asked.
I think the question they askedme is something around what's
missing.
I said, presence is so missingmost of the time.
Me too.
I like,

I'm not,

me too.
It is so hard.
It's no matter what you'redoing, no matter whether you
have your, where you are, nomatter where I am, like, it's so
hard because there's so many

things.
So many all the time we, I'llgive you

a funny little anecdote about this before we
talk about what you're up tonow, the, one of the trainings
that I, I do for this company onthe room, which is amazing.
We say, let's all be honest.
We're talking about presence.
So let's all be honest rightnow.
How many screens do you have upright now?
And we'll do a poll.
And people will be honestbecause like I'll laugh, I'll be

(40:54):
like, Hey, I'm going to tell youall I have four screens of right
now and I'll tell them I said, Ihave our training script, I have
the zoom and I have likemessaging and this that how many
you I had somebody the other daywho had 14 screens open and
they're like browser tabs.
I'm like, no, the actual screensthat you could look at.
He's like 14.
I'm like, that's

amazing.
Yeah.
That's what, yeah.
That's why I love, I love Johnand his training.
I love it when he goes, allright, everybody put your hands
up.
And you can see like people thatdo that stutter step because
they're in the middle of anemail and they have to throw
their hands up or grab a pen andthrow the pen and Yeah.
I love that.
Bringing people, I mean, that'sour job as a coach or a
facilitator.

(41:32):
Yeah.
It's always bringing people backYeah.
To the present moment.
Right.
Bringing them back.
Yeah.
Without making them wrong,without making it, it's that's
right.
With love, you know,

yeah, with love.
And also, Hey, I get that.
You have, I get that you're insales and you have your boss
asking for a report and you mayneed to do it.
And I can also see amultitasking over there.
Just let's just call it on abit.
That's so good.
Like, Eric,

put your hands up.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
He got me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love that.
Well, Steven, let's talk nowabout, you know.
So you're a, you're a coach.
You've gone through some coachtraining.
You're doing some othereducational work as well.
Let's talk for a minute aboutthat.
And let's talk about theawakening and the mission and
what you are, what you arecurrently doing with your life.

(42:22):
Let's talk about that.

Oh, what a great question.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
First, I want to define love.
Love is the extension of oneselffor the spiritual development of
oneself and another.

(42:43):
So love is the extension ofoneself for the spiritual
development of oneself.
I'm talking about like love,like the universal language of
love.
I'm not talking about when youfind that woman that like, Oh my
God, like your heart like startsjumping all over the place every
time you see her.
And like, you don't even knowwhat to say.

(43:03):
And you're like, I just loveyou, baby.
I'm talking about the universallove that I feel for you right
now, that I feel for everybodythat I work with.
By you being here with me today,you're developing spiritually
and you're also allowing me,providing me that space to
develop spiritually.
I get that love from John Berga.
That dude, like, he's a lovebug.

(43:26):
I get that from a lot of coachesand consultants from The
Exchange Approach.
I get that from my man Lorenzfrom Sutra.
He's amazing and his wife.
I get that from Dr.
Bruce Lipton, who's a dearfriend of mine now.
So love, and that's why I'm inmy educational journey, is
because of love, man.

(43:47):
I went back to education afterfinding those books and said,
hey, I heard there's a collegesecret, like, there's a secret
college.
This was like a quest for Zelda.
Remember Zelda when you had togo look for the princess?
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, that's what education waslike when I first got here.
You know, it was like drugs,gangs, violence, knives.

(44:09):
Where's the education?
That's the princess.
You gotta go find the princess.
So, you know, I went on thisexploration to find education.
So you had to go through thesedoors and through these
different departments and you goout and the cop has to let you
in.
He's like, questioning you, whyare you here?
And I'm like, I'm trying to getan education, man.

(44:29):
I tried to get substance abuse acouple of weeks ago.
That didn't work.
Hopefully this does.

They're like, you can get it when you're six
months from being done.
You can have your education.
You're like, what is going on

here?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2007.
Nobody was talking aboutrecovery.
So they look like he probablysaid, you probably need mental
health, boy.
You don't need a education.
You're talking about substanceabuse.
Nobody talks about that in here.
And nobody did at the time.
Yeah.
So get into education.
I go see this great guy namedGary and Diane this lady that

(45:01):
worked back there and shared mystory.
I said, Hey, this is whathappened.
I'm really inspired.
They said, well, you have to getinto college readiness.
How long have you been out ofschool?
I said, a long time.
They said, you got to starttaking some classes.
So immediately signed up.
I said, when do I start?
Can you be here this afternoon?
I said,

kind of like community

college, kind of like this is like, this
is a, they had hired an exengineer.
He, he was here on a murder beefand they had, he's like an Andy
to frame actually kind of smart.
Yeah.

Smart

dude.
Remember he tutored?
So there was a couple dudes thattutored back there and I just
went to the classes every dayand then I spent my time, my one
rec period there, a half a recperiod in the gym, and then I
would spend the rest of the timein the law library, and so I
went through those classes, itwas a college readiness math,

(45:55):
college readiness writing, andshowed that I could, I kept
showing up, and they admiredthat, so they said we'll give
you an opportunity, you payhalf, the prison will pay half
for your classes.
So, paid for my first twoclasses, I'll never forget it,
my first class was Introductionto literature, and my second

(46:15):
class was history, or excuse me,it was it was not history, oh my
goodness gracious, it was human,human services, and that's
where, like, I learned aboutMaslow's Hierarchy of Needs,
right?
Immediate mic drop.
Immediate, like, game changerfor me learning about self

(46:36):
actualization.
They weren't talking about selftranscendence back then, the new
level, but.
And then you know, immediatelygot into school and then paid
for those two classes.
Did really well and found outthere was a lady named Doris
Buffett, the sister of WarrenBuffett, that was coming to the
prison.
And she had been coming here foryears and she ran a program
called the Sunshine LadyFoundation.

(46:59):
I said, you got to get out ofhere.
I went and saw that guy that Itold you about in the beginning
that had the books in the cornerof his cell.
I said, Hey, do you knowsomething about this Sunshine
Lady Foundation?
He said, I sure do.
That's how I've got my collegepaid.
I said, I've been paying for myclasses.
And there's a what's going onhere, man.
And he said, no, you should haveasked.
I said, I should have asked.
You're right.
I just paid for two classes.

(47:20):
But I needed to take those twoclasses anyway, to show Doris
and the Sunshine Lady Foundationthat I was committed.
And fortunately, my man this guynamed Sean Pica, he had got
released from Sing Sing prison.
He had done, I think, 15 years.
He was 16 years old when he wentin.
He got released.
He became a friend of Doris's.

(47:40):
He went through the educationprogram.
And he came up and interviewedme.
And...
I'll never forget what he saidto me.
He said it's something I shareall the time.
He said, Stephen, you have anopportunity.
He said, we have a 77%recidivism rate in our prisons
across the United States.
He said, if any one of our majorhighways had a 77% fatality

(48:04):
rate, don't you think they'dshut the highway down to see
what was going on wrong?
And I've used that ever since.
And I said, you're absolutelyright.
He said, you have anopportunity.
To not only change your lifearound with this, but you have
an opportunity with your time tohelp so many people.
I said, I want that.

(48:26):
So, went through a bunch ofcomprehension, went through a
bunch of different meetings withhim.
Doris came up.
I got to meet Doris.
God bless and rest in peace,Doris lady who changed my life.
Got to meet her and I was in, Iwas invited into her scholarship
program that she had beenrunning in prisons across the
United States.
So she supported me with myassociate's degree.

(48:48):
She supported me with my firstbachelor's degree, which was in
liberal, liberal arts.
So.
And then myself and a goodfriend of mine, Brandon Brown,
we had looked at master's degreeprograms.
He was interested in restorativejustice.
I was interested in social workat the time.
And I didn't have my bachelor'sin science.

(49:11):
So the introductory classes forthe master's was like 15 G's,
you know, and I didn't have thatkind of money and I knew I
needed to ask for help.
So.
Like I'm sitting there prayingand meditating and I said, what
is my best bet?
And I said, you know what?
I'm going to ask Doris to goback and get a second bachelor's
degree in mental health andhuman services.
I get a lot of the foundationalclasses done.

(49:33):
I can go in, it will take melike another year and a half.
I sent her a letter.
She gave, she came up, it wasour graduation.
I told her my plan.
She gave me a big hug and shesaid, whatever you need help
with, I'll help you and Isupport you.
And Went back in, I ended upgetting my bachelor's degree in
mental health, human services.
I got certified in substanceabuse counseling.

(49:56):
I got certified in mental healthand rehabilitation as a
technician.
I started putting that to usedown in the mental health unit
here in the prison and thesegregation unit where.
Guys were cutting up all thetime and at that time too,
Jason, I got involved thisbeautiful, beautiful soul.
Oh my gosh, you talk aboutbeautiful souls, right?

(50:18):
It reminds me kind of of a dearKate's and some of these women
on exchange that just show up.
They're always like smiling andthey're like energy Jana, like
their energy is always good.
And they're like always liftingpeople up.
You don't see that a whole lotin this world.
Marnie Task.
Marnie Task reminds me of that.
Yeah.
The yoga instructor.
So, I see this lady alwayscoming to the prison, always

(50:40):
smiling.
She had that glow.
The only other time I've seenthat glow, Bo Lozov, he wrote
this book called, We're AllDoing Time.
He came to the prison, gave atalk on meditation and the power
of meditation.
Played guitar.
Johnny Cash.
Never forget it.
As he was setting in Lotus styleup on a table, this orb of light

(51:04):
came around him and I've never,that was like, it gave me
chills.
I've never seen that before.
Candace walked into the prison.
I saw that same orb of light, soI knew she was a light being
traveling and always smiling,always smiling.
Took her time.
I worked in substance abuse atthis time.

(51:24):
She'd always come over.
How are you?
It's good to see you.
She said, there's somethingspecial about you.
Always saying it and come tofind out.
She's the lady that ran thehospice program hospice hospice.
Yeah.
So I knew, I already knew whatwas going to happen.
I felt it in my heart.
My guy I worked with insubstance abuse had been serving
with hospice for a while.

(51:44):
I was freaked out about it.
Like, you know, cleaningsomebody up and just, there was
some things that were unsettlingto me, but.
I heard the story like, in theold prison, these guys would be
in the infirmary, nobody wasthere to love them, nobody was
there to care about them, they'dhave open sores because nobody
was reporting, they'd be intheir feces and in their own

(52:07):
waste for days, and they weretaking care of each other, men
dying were actively caring forthe next Man, because they
weren't seen human enough to getcare.
So, hearing that story, I said,I'm in.

(52:29):
I, I, there was no like, therewas no like even question.
I the, the cleaning people up,all that stuff, I just set it
right aside and got involved.
I got involved with the hospiceprogram as I was finishing up my
second bachelor's, Jason, andended up getting pers my, my
training in personal as apersonal support specialist,

(52:49):
which is similar to A C N A.
Mm-hmm.
It's underneath a C n A or r n aor whatever the heck it is.
C n a, I think.
Yeah.
And started caring for men whileI'm teaching, so I started
teaching substance abuse classeshere.
And then I'll circle back tothat in a second, but started
caring, caring for these men inthe infirmary.
And like, we're talking abouteducation here.

(53:10):
That's where I gained like.
This really big, profoundeducation.
Like my heart, you talked aboutthat gentle soul that I am,
something happened in hospicethat the only way I can describe
it, it like took this leathersheath off my heart and opened
me up and I remember I cared forthis man.
His name is Michael and Michaelwas 46 years old.

(53:34):
He had AIDS and he was up in theinfirmary and I'll never forget
it.
He was like always just apassionate, nice, sweet guy.
Really just sweet, sweet, sweetguy.
And remember they told him youhad, he had like five months or
six months to live or something.
And immediately like BruceLipton talks about in biology

(53:54):
and belief, them planting thatseed, he immediately started
deteriorating.
But that's where I caring forthat guy.
That's where I had some of, outof all the school books, out of
everything I've been through inmy life, out of everything I've
learned, I've learned more fromhim and those guys up in
hospice.
I think I've learned from anyanybody about really, really

(54:15):
living and what it means tolive.
So I'd go up in care for him andcure for the other men in the
infirmary.
And I'll never forget it.
I just learned from him, likewhile he was actively dying, it
was still his mission to makepeople smile.
We'd throw on Maroon five dancelike Jagger, he'd be actively

(54:39):
dying, like dancing in his bed.
I never felt so much love.
I started really feeling it andit like, mm-hmm.
I, it's almost indescribable,but what I, what I will say it
was like, I had been hardenedfor years.

(55:01):
Hardened by the adversechildhood experiences I've gone
through.
Hardened by, you know, myexperiences growing up with a
bunch of bruisers.
Hardened by my experiences of,like, really distrusting and not
liking the police at all becauseof the...
Way that they flex authority.

(55:21):
I was really hardened by thecourt system and going through a
system where I thought Court wassupposed to be ethical and like
honest It's not I was reallyhardened by getting up here to
the prison system to see howpeople were treated and I end up
in The infirmary and there'sjust so much love and I'll never

(55:46):
forget it.
It was it was a, it was a nightwe were up doing a shift and
Michael was, he had his brothercome up and he was actively
dying.
We all knew and just smiling andjust looking at you, you know,
when somebody really looks atyou in the eyes and really gives

(56:08):
you that love.
And his brother went to thebathroom.
I'll never forget this.
This is a game changer for me.
And I'm sitting in the corner.
Candace is there.
My friend Paco, God rest hissoul.
He passed away in an accidentwhen he left prison.
I'm in there with that man.
And I'm in with my friend, Danaand Michael pass, and I'll never

(56:30):
forget this.
Is this is the gentle and softmoment for me.
So he passed, I'm standing justa little bit away from him.
I felt it.
And what do you mean?
I felt electricity.
It's craziest thing in theworld.
I felt electricity go up myfingertips.

(56:53):
It went through my whole bodyand it bang hit my heart.
Immediately, tears just startedflowing.
Not tears, but just like awhale.
I just started wailing.
I'm in a prison, a maximumsecurity prison.
It's supposed to be the toughestof the tough.

(57:14):
And here I am, I am wailing,bawling my eyes out, bawling,
and I can't stop.
And it's not just about Michaelpassing.
It's about everything.
It's about my life.
It's about what I've done.
It's about the guilt.
It's about the shame.
It just all, it all came out.
And I felt him leave my body.

(57:35):
He was in, he, he, he entered,sounds, he, his spirit, his
soul, his energy entered my bodyand it clicked something on, and
I remember my friend Bobby, hisname is Bobby Paison, he he
said, Stevie, let's go outside,and he just went outside and
gave me the biggest hug in theworld.

(57:56):
Yeah, and I just remember, like,I just remember, like, that was
the game changer for me, I justsaid.
You know, my whole life, I'vebeen doing, I've been doing all
this stuff, I've not been payingattention, I've been only
concerned with myself.
This isn't about me, this isabout us.

(58:18):
This is about giving andspreading love to everybody and
providing everybody withopportunities and seeing
everybody as my brother.
You know, and with that, I wasable to care for, I met this
other guy up in the infirmarywho became my teacher.
His name was Chucky.
And...
This guy had bone marrow cancerand came here devastated,

(58:40):
shattered bones.
I mean, shattered bones.
He couldn't walk.
They had a Hoyer lift.
One of those lifts that lift theperson up and puts them in bed.
And so, man, I went up with thiswhole, like, Mindset of like I
just want to love you brother,and he never experienced love
either, so I went up we startedmeditating Dude, what happened

(59:04):
was nothing less than a miraclethis guy with bone marrow cancer
who had shattered bones startedhealing He started walking his
whole life changed like hestarted getting better and
beating the cancer.
And I like, I'm like, this isprofound.
This is like amazing.
And he attributed all to lovethose guys with my greatest

(59:29):
teachers.
I ended up graduating.
I end up graduating with mysecond bachelor's degree in
health and human services.
I read this book, mentioned italready, Biology of Belief.
Dr.
Bruce Lipton.
I read Gabra Mate in the Realmof Hungry Ghosts that talks

(59:50):
about substance abuse.
It talks about the Portlandhouse up in Canada where Gabra
did his work and his research.
Read in the The Body Keeps theScore, Dr.
Bessel Van de Kerk.
Amazing book.
In the realm of Hungry Ghosts,so two things.
I listen when I read something.

(01:00:12):
Body Keeps the Score says yougotta do yoga.
Issues are in the tissues, yougotta get rid of those suckers.
So what happens, I sign up formy yoga.
Ha! I signed up for my yogainstructor training, right?
Second thing happens, I readBiology of Belief thanks to
Gaber Maté quoting Bruce Liptonin that book and pick up Biology

(01:00:32):
of Belief.
I read through it, I think in aday, I'm like, this is amazing.
I said, I gotta reread thatbook.
Reread the book, I said, Icannot believe this.
Like everything, you talk abouta shift.
So now my heart just changed,right?
Through this hospice experience.

(01:00:53):
I read this biology of beliefbook, my mind completely shifts.
So now I have a heart thatshifted, my mind shifted.
I said, what source, what areyou doing?
What is your direction for me?
What am I supposed to be doing?
Social work.
I remember I had goals, socialwork.
I took the goal.

(01:01:13):
I ripped it up, flushed it downthe toilet.
I said, this isn't my plan.
And then what I realized in thatmoment, Jason was.
I have an opportunity to empowerpeople.
I read this book by Dr.
Ellen Langer called Mindfulness,and then I picked up her next
book called Becoming an Artist,and I realized, thanks to Bruce

(01:01:38):
Lipton, and then picking upEvolve Your Brain by Dr.
Joe Dispenza, I started sayingto myself, holy shucks, people
are sick, and there's a 77%recidivism rate, A, because
people in prison are not loved,But B, we're perpetuating a

(01:01:58):
narrative that they are theworst choice that they ever
made, or they are the sickness,or they are...
We're labeling people, we'restuffing them and putting them
in a cell, we're warehousingthem, and then we're releasing
them?
And we think that's gonna work?
There's a problem! With that, Iwent into prayer, went into
meditation.
I ended up with this book byMartin Sleegman called Flourish.

(01:02:23):
And I said, that's it.
I know what I'm supposed to bedoing.
Positive psychology.
I love psychology.
It's on.
But I've been peer coaching inthe prison for the past umpteen
years.
I wrote to the governor and gota peer recovery coaching program
in here.
So I, I, I said, Oh my God, thisuniversity, I read Evolve Your

(01:02:47):
Brain in the back, I see JoeDispenza went to Life
University, I reached out toHarvard and UPenn, I couldn't go
because it required on campusresidency, that's the only
reason I didn't go, and thankGod I didn't because I ended up
in the best school in the world,so much, Life University, where
Dr.
Joe went, learned so much,Gifted was so much got into

(01:03:11):
their coaching program anddeveloped a prisoner coaching
program called the awakening.
And that's how the exchangestarted.
Wow.
I don't even know where tobegin.
I'm like,

Jason Frazell (01:03:27):
wow, let's talk about.
Let's wrap today.
And yes, we'll have you, we'llhave you come back on to talk
about whatever the heck you wantto talk about is everybody's
probably like, wow, never endingnever ending vault and amazing
things over here.
What's up?
So let's talk about coachinginmates.

(01:03:49):
Let's talk about

Steven Matthew Clark (01:03:50):
that.
We're going to, we're going to,we're going to help everybody in
the world right now in thiscall, because it's going to be.
I'd say at least a hundredthousand people that listened to
this call because when we startthis process of talking now
They're gonna go back and listento this one.
So we're just gonna sayincarcerated experiencers
incarcerated Experiencers,that's right Experiencers,

thank you for the education.
I've never heard that termbefore.

Well, we're gonna coin that There it
is.
Here it is.
I attribute that to my dearfriend Mikael Pitts that said
that to me as a, I love

it.
Incarcerated Experiencers.
It makes sense.
So, Incarcerated Experiencers.
Let's, as somebody who knowscoaching, knows the ICF
frameworks, and knows all thesethings, what kind of things do
you coach people around?
That are in prison.

(01:04:46):
Like, what are some of thethings that people want to work

on?
Such a good question, my friend.
Well,

let me, sorry.
Let me, I'll give you a littlecontext.
I do executive coaching.
So my people are like.
How do I grow my business?
How do I raise capital?
All the kind of the, or how do Ibe a better, better leader?
And so I'm just reallyfascinated.
And yes, this is kind of a selfcause I'm just really curious
and fascinated.

(01:05:14):
I'm in, I'm in prison for 30years and I have no chance of
getting out or I'm not up forparole for 15 years.
And I want to go coach and Iwant to work with a coach.
What am I working on?
Like what, and like, I know theanswer, I think, because I'm a
coach myself, but from like theoutside looking in, what kind of
things do people want to work onor what do they work on?

(01:05:34):
What kind of difference doescoaching make for people that
you work with?
And people that the awakening

works with beautiful questions.
Thank you.
And I probably, I'll probablyanswer this and kind of spin
onto the awakening a little bit.
I think it's a beautiful way toprobably wrap today's coaching
in prison.
I started off with recovery,right?
Like substance abuse recovery.
That's right.
That's right.
So recovery was really a taboo,taboo issue that nobody talked

(01:06:02):
about.
It was you talked aboutrecovery.
So I, I spearhead this recoverymovement in the prison and I
went through a lot of crap andlike I had a good reputation in
the prison.
So everybody knew it waslegitimate.
So I started getting involvedwith recovery.
I get this whole huge likegrassroots movement going.

(01:06:23):
And coaching there look likejust the eight areas of
wellness.
And it looked like gettingpeople in helping people develop
smart goals.
I studied the heck out ofmotivational interviewing in my
bachelor's degree through mymental health.
So I went through a couple ofreally beautiful courses that

(01:06:43):
taught me darn, see the, or isthe readiness ruler really how
to lay out.
And create discrepancy insomebody that I'm working with
so that you're going to becareful with that in person.
You go up to a guy with tattoosall over his face and say, your
actions aren't lining up.
Your words aren't lining up withyour actions, dude.
You better make sure you go.
You're out of integrity

right now.
They're like,

What?
Well, that's a cool shit.
That's the coolest thing in theworld, though, is like when you
develop relationships withpeople, you can have those
conversations.
Totally.
I say that with people, youknow, and it's great.
Jason, it's just anything youcan imagine on the outside is
probably similar stuff on theinside.
I'm coaching people.
Typically on reentry.

(01:07:25):
It's like what you need to dotoday.
They're like, but Stevie, I have25 years left on my sentence.
I said, it doesn't matter.
Reentry started the day you gotarrested.
My friend.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Everything you do from thismoment forward counts.
Everything counts.
Every letter you write, everythought you put into your mind,

(01:07:45):
every book you read, every Timeyou move your feet, it counts
and that's the message I try toshare with people.
It's like, get involved, getmoving and get going, you know?
And when I graduated with mybachelor's degree, all these
guys are watching.
I said, Hey, I'm going to thisis what I say in my speech.
I said, I'm going to earn mymaster's degree and a PhD.

(01:08:05):
And they laughed.
There's no master's degreeprogram here, Steve.
You're crazy.
That stuff's online.
You'll never be able to do that.
And I said, no, I'm going to beable to do that.
And that's what I try to coachpeople with.
It's like changing your mindset.
Embracing what Dr.
Bruce Lipton teaches us.
95% of our thoughts aresubconscious programming.
Yep.

(01:08:26):
5% of those thoughts are actualtrue consciousness and those
belong to us.
95% of what's going on in ourmind is that Tape saying you
can't do this.
You're a piece of shit forcoming into prison.
You're no good You are thatworst choice you've ever made
you are this you are that thosethings keep coming up in a

(01:08:49):
person's Mindset so my hope inmy goal is to spend time with
somebody It's amazing when yougive somebody presents Jason
when somebody spent their wholelife not feeling seen heard and
felt And you give somebody ahalf hour.
I can just ask a simplequestion.

(01:09:09):
That simple question is how youdoing today?
Yeah,

people are like wait, what what what you're not
you don't need something for meYou just want to genuinely know
how I'm doing you're like Igenuinely want to know how

you're doing.
That's right.
That's right.
No, man.
It's amazing.
Right?
So we help, we help guys, youknow, some of the coaching,
recent coaching I've done, Ijust helped a guy get out of
here.
We put together a release plan.
I helped him put together aresume.
I supported him with locatingsome jobs in the area that he
was getting released to, Isupported him with a federal

(01:09:46):
bonding program and with the.
200, you know, the, the seven,7, 500 tax rebate that somebody
gets for hiring somebody leavingthe prison system.
Yeah.
So that's one scenario.
I'm working with another guyright now.
He's got a 35 year sentence.

(01:10:07):
He's an African American dude.
Sweet guy.
He's going through the stressesof prison, how negative it is
here.
So we just kick it and I spendtime with him.
Like.
uplifting him, asking himquestions about how he's going
to spend his next 35 years.
And if the negativity is goingto draw him in.

(01:10:29):
So I teach a class on Fridaynights, it's called positive
mindset.
And the hope and the goal ofthat class is we do things like
VIA character strengths.
We do values.
We look a lot at we look awhole, whole lot at goodness
gracious.
I can't even think of the term,but we look a whole lot at
different.
areas of psychology.
And we also look at not fusingtwo things that are happening in

(01:10:53):
our life rather than fusing,sticking to our values,
acceptance, commitment therapy.
So the coaching is all over theplace.
If it's somebody that needs helpbecause they're feeling
depressed and sad or down, I, Isometimes will refer them to a
mental health clinician becauseit's not my job.
Yeah.
But for the most part, it's thesame if we were on the outside,

(01:11:16):
like some guys won't help withjobs.
Some guys won't help withcommunication with their
families.
Some guys want to help with likegetting to a minimum facility.
Some guys, I used to be in thegym a lot.
So I look more like a milkbagger and how, but some guys,
that's not true.
I'm still getting like a steelplate underneath, but.

(01:11:38):
Some guys won't help withfitness and putting together a
fitness plan.
So again, it goes to that fourletter word of just spreading
love.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Steven.
Wow.
There, I want to say,

I'm sure you, I'm going to say something.
I'm sure, you know, howfortunate your fellow people are
there with you to have you.
They're with them.

Thank you, my friend.
That's sweet, but I

don't know if you know this or not.
I know you're well connected andI would assume that you are, I'm
going to assume, which is bad todo, but that you are connected
with other, other Stevens aroundthe country that are inside the
the prison system in some way,shape, or form.
Like you must know of otherpeople doing this sort of work.
This seems Like something thatshould be more official,

(01:12:34):
something that should be moreinstitutionalized in a way of,
Hey, we need more people that,yeah, that want to do this work
that we've either identified orwe, Hey, you're interested in,
everybody's going to have theirown flavor of it, but this is
what you're doing is all of yourown volition, all of your own
proactivity, not, I'm nottalking about the education.
I'm talking about the workyou're doing with people, with

(01:12:56):
the population.
This is, there are some placeswhere this is, does not happen,
period.

Right.
That's right.
You're absolutely right.
a huge miss.
We so you and I right now onthis podcast, we're making
history.
We are making history becausethere's not a lot of people from
there.
I'm in my prison cell right now,right?
Yeah.
In a maximum security prison.
Yeah.
On this call about to talk toyou about the awakening exchange

(01:13:23):
now, right?
Yeah.
Maine is a pioneer in the fieldof corrections.
Maine is the first place in theUnited States to open up, open
up technology the way that it'sopened up, giving the residents
this level of trust to be on.

(01:13:44):
So Maine has made history.
My hope, my goal, and my job isto share this with everybody.
And it was a great question thatyou were asking, and it really
is a good segue into what theawakening is and what we're
doing.
So for my master's degree, Ideveloped that coaching program
and I was asked, there's a longstory we could go into this.

(01:14:07):
This would be a really good oneat some point, but this would be
a good followup for sure.
Yeah.
I just say this quickly.
I ended up presenting theawakening and I trained with
John Berg off.
That dude changed my life, man.
I went through that training.
I present Utilizing ExchangeApproach.
And there's like 60 people thatshow up to this call.

(01:14:29):
And I think I'm just presentingmy capstone.
What I didn't realize is Iexchanged the heck out of it.
All these people showed up.
I get these letters ofencouragement after they said,
Stephen Matthew Clark, you havea gift to facilitate.
Lo and behold, I tip my hat toMr.
Berghoff, Adir, Stephen,Bouchard, everybody else that

(01:14:49):
gave that two hour freetraining.
Sure.
And I just took that forwardinto this presentation that I
did and then started doing theseonline exchanges for criminal
justice and prison reform.
And what's happened, Jason,is...
In a period of 12 months, we'vegrown to over a thousand people.

(01:15:11):
We have people in, I think, 18different countries that join us
in different times which isfreaking amazing.
We have changed champions.
The commissioner of the maindepartment of corrections
allowed me to interview him frommy prison cell with over.

(01:15:32):
160 people on the zoom call,which was amazing.
Yeah.
The warden let me interview himfrom my prison cell.
I've interviewed him.
Right, right, right, right,right.
Wow! The warden! The warden! Thewarden! So the warden, haha.
He and he's a radical, reallykind hearted dude, just like the

(01:15:55):
commissioner.
These men are some of thegreatest leaders that I've ever
met.
I wish that we could turn themon to the exchange.
Dr.
Danny Friedland and some of theother work that's going on.
But these men, I'll tell you,they are powerhouses.
And thank God for them.
I see it's 1210 jail.

(01:16:16):
I'll come finish up thesethoughts.
Good.
I'm running an exchange rightnow.
I just want to say this from myprison.
So that has gotten worldattention.
We are bringing people togetherat no cost on zoom once a month.
And we're actually doingleadership meetings now every
Saturday night.
We're bringing people togetherfrom around the world that are

(01:16:39):
interested in seeing the UnitedStates prison system heal.
Just like our tagline here, fromthe inside out.
Just like yoga and meditation,healing has to start from
within.
And I believe the same is truein our prison systems.
The healing has to take placewithin the system and then bring

(01:17:01):
itself out.
within each and every person.
So now I'm in a position to runthese exchanges.
It's been one of the mostamazing experiences in
educational experiences of mylife.
That is what I've taken into.

(01:17:23):
We haven't even talked aboutthis.
I graduated with my master'sdegree.
And I became the first person,this is what I'm being told, in
the United States to start a Ph.
D.
program from a maximum securityprison at an accredited college,
right?
Amazing.
So first person in history tostart a Ph.

(01:17:46):
D.
program from an accreditedcollege in a maximum security
prison in my...
My work, my man, is to doexactly what we're doing right
here.
It's to look at ways we canutilize re we can utilize
technology.
So I'm researching ways we canutilize technology to help heal

(01:18:12):
the prison system one person ata time.
So, perfect example of it.
I get on this call with you,you're smiling, you're not
feeling good today, you stilltake time out of your day to
meet with me.
Stephen Matthew Clark feelslike, holy, holy Moses, somebody
cares about him.
So now I feel seen, heard, andfelt.
I feel supported and loved byyou.

(01:18:35):
I feel that coherence and thatco Contagion jump in that
emotional contagion of love andkindness.
Now, what do you think happenswhen I get off this call?
I get off this call forward.
That's what I'm saying.
Yeah.
I get off this call with thatenergy in me.
Working with a guy like you thattook his time to work with me

(01:19:00):
and I go take that out in theprison.
Now imagine if we did that toprisons across the United States
and abroad.
Amazing.
Wow.
That's what you know, I knowthese are closing thoughts right
here, but I just, for now.
For now, yeah, I just want tosay to everybody on this call

(01:19:20):
that's, that's listening, Thankyou for the opportunity to share
with you.
Thank you for listening to youknow, my experience.
I hope I've presented myself ina, in a way that allowed you to
connect with my message.
And really my message boils downto this.

(01:19:41):
We're all children of thecreator.
We've all made mistakes in ourlives.
We've all made poor choices inour lives.
Nobody wants to be judged by theworst choice you've ever made.
And there's always a whyusually, right?
People, I don't think, wake upone morning and say, I'm going
to go hurt somebody, or I'mgoing to go rob a store.
I'm going to do this.
There's always a why behind thatbehavior.

(01:20:02):
And what I would say, like,Jesus didn't hang out with the
Romans.
Jesus hung out with prisoners.
Prisoners, yeah.
In fact, somewhere in the Bible,I think it talks about, like,
letting and having all beings befree.
And what I would encourageeverybody on this call to do is,

(01:20:23):
like, my friend, I call him myfriend now, Jason, has done Take
some time to talk to a prisoner,take a time, take the time to
maybe even go to a local prisonor look somebody up.
Put in a visiting application,send them a letter, surprise the
heck out of them.
And get to know somebody inprison because first off, we all

(01:20:46):
need love.
Think about going into an animalshelter with a little puppy.
They're all looking and, youknow, they put on that little
face and they put on a little, alittle, little cry.
We're we're pretty similar tothat.
I hate to say that like take itbut it's the truth It's like
man.
I just want to I want to feelthat love.

(01:21:07):
I want to be loved I want to beseen heard and felt and
recognized and that's whatyou've done for me today Jason
and that's what I wouldencourage anybody on this call.
If you know somebody in prison,send them a letter and just say,
Hey, I'm thinking of you.
I love you.
I'd love to have a conversation.
Send them 10 to their phoneaccount so they can call you.

(01:21:29):
Have a, have a quickconversation with these people.
See how they're doing.
And that's what's going to helpheal the prison system is love.
Yeah.

Amazing, Stephen.
Well, I guess I've said this afew times, the first of multiple
conversations.
We're going to have you back onagain here when we can make it
work.
I know you have some big thingsyou're working on right now that
we'll cover next time as well.
I just want to thank you foryour vulnerability, for your
love.
Really been a pleasure to get toknow you in this way and record
it for everybody.

(01:22:01):
We've gotten to know each othera little bit, but this has just
been, Mind blowing.
Thank you for the work you'redoing for those fellow people
there with you.
And I'm sure there's a lot oflove headed your way from people
listening when this comes outand we'll have you back on

again soon.
I look forward to it.
Thank you very much.
Much love to you.

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Steven Matthew Clark - Coach, Facilitator, Founder-Awakening Exchange, Incarcerated Experiencer

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Steven Matthew Clark - Coach, Facilitator, Founder-Awakening Exchange, Incarcerated Experiencer