December 18, 2025 • 44 mins
Our list of Top 6 most impactful guests of Season 6 would not be complete without American Folk singer-songwriter and author Mary Gauthier, who talks about her addiction recovery, mental health journey and how she uses songwriting to help veterans with PTSD. She works with veterans on their healing through songwriting with SongwritingWith:Soldiers.
“What I try to emphasize is that this can be of service to other people — a lifeline actually, which it often is.”
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(00:00):
We're back. Alphas.
We're coming in hot with inspiring guests, witty banter
and colorful commentary for today's veterans and military
community. This is the Tal.
Podcast. Hi there, Alphas.
During the holiday season, the Tal podcast team is taking a
break. Need a break?
(00:21):
But while we're gone, we do havea little bonus content for you.
So we've looked back at all the things we've done during Season
6 and we've come up with a list of our our top six most
impactful guests from 2025. And that was not easy.
It really was difficult. There are so many great guests,
but we'll be re releasing those interviews this week.
So if you haven't already subscribed to Tango Halima on
(00:43):
Spotify, Apple Podcast, YouTube,or you know, wherever you get
your podcast, don't miss our countdown.
We've got we've got you covered all the way back in January, we
talked to the talented Grammy nominated American folk
singer-songwriter, author, and my dear friend Mary Gaucher.
We talked to her about her musiccareer, her addiction, her
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recovery, mental health journey,and how she uses songwriting to
help veterans with PTSD. We had such a great conversation
with Mary about the healing power of music.
And you know, I had my own experiences with organization,
an organization she volunteers for songwriting, songwriting
with soldiers and Mary is an absolute treasure.
(01:24):
What did you guys have as a takeaway when when we talked to
Mary? For me personally, I, I hate
having this reinforced, but it seems like some of the best
music comes from pain. And, and as much as I hate that
people have to go through, you know, through things, it's so
beautiful to see someone take those things and make something
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incredible and creative out of it.
You know, I feel like in a lot of ways, a lot of what we do
comes from a place of making purpose out of the things that
we've gone through. It sounds dramatic, you know,
purpose through pain, but in a lot of ways, when you hurt,
you're like, I just want to makepeople better.
I want to make people happy. You know, Stacey, what you do I
think is incredible. And I think it's it's very
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similar of being able to take that creative element.
And you know, Adam, you work tirelessly.
So I know that we're talking about, you know, you know, Miss
Mary Gachet here. But like, that's what brought
this up to me is it was a reminder that that you can take
the every, these, everything, all the bad things that we go
through and make something really incredible out of it.
(02:28):
I think for me, it's always sucha joy when you can get to be
with somebody who's just a generationally at the top of
their craft. And yeah, when you're able to
meet with somebody like that who's also so raw and authentic
and and vulnerable, and then youlayer that on with like, you
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know, her friends and the peoplethat she stared stages with,
which are the the top music names in, in, you know, the
industry. And then of her herself, like
her own story career. It like the whole thing together
was just it. It was, it was a, it was a
Symphony of an episode and it was very powerful and
meaningful. Hey, was that in a meaningful
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play on words? Adam, did you see Symphony?
That's right. I did.
I made a pun. I love it.
I am really thankful that we're going to be listening to this
episode one more time. So, Alpha, stick around after
the break and we'll go all the way back to episode 247 for our
interview with the Mary Goucher.American Values and Patriotism
(03:36):
The American Legion advocates for upholding and defending the
United States Constitution, equal justice and opportunity
for everyone, and discriminationagainst no one.
Youth education, responsible citizenship, and honoring
military service by observing and participating in patriotic
(03:56):
and memorial events. We are veterans strengthening
America. We are the American Legion.
Hey, alphas, today we are joinedby the amazing folk
singer-songwriter Mary Gaucher, and we're going to spell that
out for you in case you want to look her up because you're not
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going to be able to find her by looking up the word Gaucher.
So it's GAUTHIER. Mary, thank you so much and
welcome to the Tal Podcast. So nice to be with you all
today. Yeah, all those French Creole
people out there, like we knew exactly how that was spelled.
You didn't need to spell it out for us.
Hey, Mary, so good. So good to have you on the show.
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And I'm happy that all the alphas are going to be able to
be able to meet you and, and know you and love you as much as
I do because you're just an incredible person.
I want to dive right in because,you know, I've, I've had years
to get to know you since we met with our volunteers and through
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songwriting with Soldiers. And I know in our early
conversations, I was one of the things that really intrigued me
about your story was that you actually got your start as a
chef. Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
So you, you were creative on more than just music levels.
Can you talk to me a little bit about why?
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Why food and what brought you tomusic?
Yeah, well, it's a twisty, windyRd. isn't it?
The, the journey is not linear for anyone, I don't think.
And mine has certainly been anything but.
I was in the restaurant businessas a kid because it was the one
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thing I could do where they wouldn't make me wear a dress.
And I'm just a woman that's opposed to dresses on myself.
I just, I just didn't like him as a kid.
I didn't like him as a teenager,and I just wasn't going to wear
a dress. And if I worked in the kitchen,
I could wear what I wanted to wear.
And so that's how I got into therestaurant business.
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It was really a matter of clothing.
Also, I was very good at going fast, which during the rush you
got to roll, and I'm good at that.
Multitasking is also something Iseem to excel at.
So I ended up there and then I realized to to really get good
at it, I should go to school andlearn how to cook and, and
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really learn how to cook. So I went to chef school and
ended up finding investors and opening a couple of restaurants.
As a incredibly young person before I was 27, I was part
owner of three different restaurants in the Boston area.
I got arrested for drunk drivingopening night of restaurant #3
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which was July 1990. And that was a come to Jesus for
me. And I realized I got a problem
and I got to deal with it. And it was humiliating and and a
powerful experience for me to spend the night in a drunk tank.
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And that was the last time I consumed drugs or alcohol.
I'm 34 years sober now. I was was going so fast in my
life and doing so many things and, and, and to burn off steam.
I would just go to the bar and drink and that had to stop.
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And it was probably the worst day of my life and the best day
of my life because it changed everything.
It was the fork in the road for me.
And about two years after that, I was sober.
From that point on, I was brought to an open mic by a
waitress that worked for me at one of my restaurants.
And an open mic, for listeners who aren't familiar with that,
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is a place where a songwriter ora musician or a poet can, you
know, pay a few bucks and be given the opportunity to get in
front of an audience. Now you have to wait a while.
There's usually 30 or 40 people who sign up, and they call names
or draw numbers. And when your name is called,
you get on stage and do your thing.
And I saw my waitress perform anoriginal song.
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My restaurant at the time was inBoston next to Berkeley College
of Music. So I worked around a lot of
musicians and music teachers. And being at the open mic just
blew my mind. And I I saw her on stage sing a
song and it was like a light bulb screwed in.
I just, I want to do that. I want to do that.
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And I hadn't written any songs. I always had a guitar and I
played, you know, the songs thatI liked, cover songs, but I
never played professionally or in bars.
I just kind of played with friends and stuff.
But when I saw her sing and play, I, I wanted to do that.
And that was another fork in theroad for me.
I just started writing, trying to get a song so I could get on
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that stage and play it and, and it became all consuming for me.
I obviously have an addictive personality and this took off
for me. I, I wanted to become better at
songwriting and, and learn how to how to communicate that way.
And about 10 years after that, Imoved to Nashville and became a
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professional songwriter, left the restaurant behind.
So I think music and song have this in common with food.
They both are ways of expressinglove.
They're 22 lifestyles for somebody who you know, without,
with alcohol, you're, you're in a very close proximity with two
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lifestyles that could bring you in close proximity with that.
How do you walk that line, Mary?How do you deal with that?
Well, the beauty of recovery is you don't have to deal with it.
You just surrender. You know the.
Recovery is I can't handle it. I, I have proven time and time
again that I cannot handle it and I have a white flag and I
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just wave it and that in a very powerful and real lifeway
removes the, the compulsion. So I can be around alcohol.
I, I don't spend time around time around drugs, but but I can
be around alcohol and I just, I don't want it, but, but I do the
work to, to stay in that place of surrender.
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As soon as I think I can handle it, I'm in trouble.
I just know I can't. People don't get arrested for
drunk driving because they're, they're, they're handling
alcohol very well. And so it's not like I go to the
bar and hang out. But if I play at a club or
there's alcohol at a party or, or you know what, wherever
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drinks are served, if I have a good reason to be there, I'm not
at all worried about getting drunk because I have a
protection around me, which is which is my recovery.
I. Really love the the parallels
that you drew, Mary, about food and music are both expressions
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of love, and there's these creative expressions of love.
And so for your music, your songs are known for finding
beauty and sorrow and healing and loss.
What advice would you give to someone who feels stuck in their
pain and doesn't know how to start expressing it creatively
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and not yet maybe knowing that it's an expression of love that
they're actually looking for? Yeah.
You know, one of the profound things that I learned leaving
the restaurant and becoming a songwriter is that there is a
universal thread that connects us all as people and it
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transcends all the things that we think divide us, race, age,
nationality, gender, sexuality. There's a just a humanity that
we we share and that that human experience, that humanity is,
is, is deeply attached to vulnerability, really emotional
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vulnerability. And I think that the expression
through story of our, of our humanity is a service and, and
that service is needed by those who aren't able to express such
things. And they can see themselves in
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that expression and know they'renot alone.
So, you know, when I'm, when I'mworking through songwriting with
soldiers, with veterans trying to help come up with a story, a
song that that they're comfortable contributing two,
what I, I try to emphasize is that is that this could be of
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service and useful to other people, that this could be a
lifeline actually, and often is throwing a lifeline is not what
we think it is. It is almost counterintuitive.
The same way that surrender can help an addict win, you know,
expression of vulnerability and emotional fragility in some way
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is a lifeline to those who are experiencing it and unable to
show it because they feel shame around it.
Well, and I really love the aspect that you call out about
service as well, because it's this thing about being able to
put our focus and awareness on something other than ourselves.
And I think even for me personally in my own journey,
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you know, and I realized not to say that I was like, you know,
self-centered or, or just like focus on myself, but you get
caught up with, you know, the, the program of, of the world
over time. And when I look back and I say
the times that I was maybe most,you know, broken or out of
alignment was when I was fighting just for myself.
But when I turned it around and made it about service towards
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others, towards the community, towards maybe the veteran
community that's, you know, hurting in a lot of respects
with the ability to, to heal andaddress, you know, some of these
things. Then I noticed that my cup began
to to overflow and I got more than I needed because the act of
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service was so powerful on the healing process.
And I love that you highlight that.
So thank you. Thanks, Adam.
It's interesting, isn't it? The mathematics of love it it
it's it's again the counter intuitive, but the more you
give, the more you have. And often times for me, just
singing my, my, my, my deep concerns and my, my deepest self
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past navel gazing, past reading my diary.
But the deepest stuff that I protect as sacred, putting that
into verse and song, it is indeed an act of service because
somebody out there is going to go wow, me too.
I didn't know anybody else felt that way.
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You know, one of the things thatwe've got to go ahead.
Yeah. I was just going to say I'm
sorry, is the sense that we're the only one who's ever felt
this way. And that's just not possible.
That that however we're feeling,there's probably millions of
other people who have felt that way.
You know, it's, it's funny, you know, you're, you're, you're
saying this and it's exactly what my where my mind is at.
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I think a lot of times people don't realize that there's a
skill in recognizing love because when, for instance, when
you're writing and when you're doing the things you, it takes a
bit of an aged mind to finally grow up enough and mature enough
to realize what love looks like.And it does not look like the
same thing. Words are not what love is.
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And I don't mean lyrically. I mean when somebody says I love
you, that's not what love feels like.
What love feels like is when somebody gives of themselves
when they when they share something of themselves that
they don't have to share with noask of return because they just
want you to be a part of it. And I've always wrote poetry.
I've always written, I love to write.
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And I did not realize that the skill difference between writing
poetry versus music. We, I, I'm in a, a band as well.
And, and one of the things that I learned is that I did not know
how to write music, but I did know how to tell a story.
And I did have a friend that knew how to write music and how
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to write lyrics and to make the words make sense and flow in a
way that they needed to. And, and I think in a lot of
ways for some people, it's easy to reach out and, and who people
who know love to be able to put that in their lyrics.
So the people who hear those things can, can, can share in
what you're feeling in a way that that some people aren't
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able. I mean, you've got writers out
there like Kris Kristofferson and people like that who write
words that make people really stop what they're doing and
think. I've always been fascinated by
that. And so as somebody who's turned
personal pain and life experiences into art, that
really resonates with me. You know you, but how do you
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approach writing songs that resonate not just to the
specific group of people that that may have shared some
aspects of your life and your pain?
But as I got through on the other side of my injury, I was a
corpsman with two one Marines. I lost my left leg and but on
the backside of all that, I realized that the things that
I've been through, the trauma that I've been through ends up
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exactly the same as what someonewho's been through something
else went through. We live in the same
neighborhood. We just drove different cars to
get there. And some of us drove real fast
and some of us drove real slow over their whole lives dealing
with things. And, but we all end up in a
neighborhood where we kind of know each other and we kind of
see each other and wave and, andcan look in each other's eyes
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and see where we're hurting. How do you find a way to make
your lyrics resonate the way that they do?
We listen. We listen to Mercy now, and I
know that that's got to be something that hurts to talk
about. How do you still show love in a
way that doesn't seem bitter andcondesce?
How do you do that? How do you write lyrics in the
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way that you do that does something that beautiful?
I wish I could answer that. It's Yeah, I believe there's
divine assistance involved. For one, I think there's a
there's a metaphor that I use when I work with songwriters.
I teach songwriting quite a bit these days.
And I tell them, look, you're trying to just hang out the
window of a fast moving vehicle with a lightning rod.
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You're just conducting electricity.
And the electricity I think is the thread that connects us all.
There is something bigger than us that we're made of and trying
to taproot into that. There's a universal to being
human and it it, it, it, it has nothing to do with with the
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things of the world even really it's it, it, it doesn't exist
even in time. And and so I could sing a song I
Co wrote with a veteran who served in Iraq or Afghanistan.
And I have it resonate with a family that is dealing with the
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wounds of World War 2 or a Italian family who's still
grappling with the impact of Mussolini and the divisions in
Italy. It just goes through time and
and and I think that there's a deepness.
So what I would say, Joe, is go all the way down.
Like I think a mistake that somewriters make is they go down two
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or three flights and they think that's cool when when they've
got 20 flights, they could go down, but I can get past four or
five. It's scary.
Because it becomes genuinely vulnerable to say such things.
But that's where the goldmine is.
That's where I think the electricity is.
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You know, it's a terrible thing to have to say, but you need to
scare yourself. You have to go, should I say
that? Who am I to say this?
Or should I say this? Why would I say this?
This is going to make me feel very exposed.
And I think if artists are unwilling to do that, we've run
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out of people in our culture whowill.
We're the last people standing willing to do that.
And why do that? Because there's people out there
who are hanging by a thread who,when they hear it, that
resonance, it resonates. There's a vibration that happens
for music, but there's also a spiritual vibration.
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That resonance is indication that they feel alone, but
they're not alone that someone else understands what.
I had the great thrill of doing a couple of tours with Willie
Nelson. And one night at the end of a
tour, we were standing around atthe bar where where with the
hotel we were staying at, at thegrand ending of the tour.
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And I got to ask him the question, Willie, why do people
like the sad song so much? He said.
Mary, I think it's because they figure if it could happen to old
Willie, it could happen to anybody.
I think there's truth in that. You know, I'm crazy for crying,
crazy for trying, I'm crazy for loving you.
If Willie can feel that way and he's legend, icon, multi
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millionaire, then it could happen to anybody.
There's almost a relief in knowing that other people suffer
the same way I do. Yeah.
That's fair. Yeah.
Relatability to, I suppose. Yeah.
You got, you got involved in songwriting with soldiers quite
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early on and that was several years ago now.
I want to say that was probably 2009 maybe that started up.
That's. Pretty close to the beginning of
the program. I don't know how long, I'm not
good at time. I know, I know, but but you, you
have touched so many lives and then during that time you
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actually went above and beyond and got involved with veterans
on your own time to write an album of your own called Rifles
and Rosary Beads which you Co wrote with military veterans and
their families. That album actually got you a
lot of recognition for your hardwork, including a Grammy
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nomination. Can you talk to me a little bit
about your experiences early on with songwriting with soldiers
your and how how that work impacted you personally?
Was it good? Bad.
The pitfalls for their mental health, Your mental health
journey, What kind of impacts ithas had on your creative
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creativity, your music, your career, etcetera.
Great. Great question, Stacey.
I love talking about this because I went in pretty nervous
not knowing, first of all, if I could write a song in in an hour
and a half, two hours Max is allthe time.
You get like, you know, it takesme a long time to sort things
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out in a song. What I didn't realize it takes a
long time to start my things outin a song if I'm bearing witness
and not entering the conversation as Mary Gaucher,
but more as a witness, I could ask questions of someone and
help that story to come alive much quicker than they own
confusion of my own experience. But but my my concern was that I
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couldn't do it fast enough. And my other concern was that I
didn't know anything about the military.
The experience of my, my father served in Korea, but the one
thing he, he just never did was talk about it.
And so I have no reference for, for, for the experience.
And I felt that my ignorance wasnot an asset in, in any way.
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And it was scary that I wasn't going to be able to do the job
well. And I wanted to do the job well.
And, and, and what I learned almost within an hour is that
that doesn't matter. What matters is the willingness
and ability to listen in the spirit of non judgement and just
bear witness and then help to transcribe what I'm told into a
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melody and a lyric. And I found so many common, as
you, you and I did, so many common bonds between the, the,
the, the women and men who served in their families and
myself that, that I didn't know,I didn't expect.
I just thought you all were of adifferent ilk than, you know, a
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drug addict, alcoholic artist, you know, gay person like me,
like we've got nothing in common.
And boy was I wrong. I was absolutely stereotyping.
And an interesting thing is thatI was afraid of being
stereotyped and I was stereotyping.
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That was a revelation that my, my labeling and, and, and, and
sort of categorizing who I thought I was going to go work
with was, was, was was a form ofstereotyping.
And I didn't, I didn't even knowI was doing that.
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And that was a revelation that Ineed to put down the
preconceived ideas and just listen and experience each
person as an individual. Nobody's a category.
We're all individuals with strengths, weaknesses and
stories. And one of the other answers I
love to give for this question that's really important, I
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think, is that the work that I've done with the veterans and
with songwriting, with soldiers has been deeply connected to
purpose for me. Like I may maybe I was given
this talent to to be of service and this is a way I can be of
service that has real life implications.
It's not to be maybe, maybe not to be, you know, a, A star or a
(26:56):
hit songwriter or my name on themarquee.
Maybe that's not the, the, the, the, that's not what the gift
was about. Maybe the gift was really about
taking this ability to transcribe and and translate and
and make song out of human experience.
Maybe that gift was an opportunity to be of deeper
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service in this lifetime to people around me who who could,
who could really use some help finding the words to what the
hell they're feeling. And that connection collided
with purpose almost instantaneously with me.
And, and the experience of beingin purpose, as we, you know, as,
as we all know, is, is one of meaning.
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Without purpose, life is life isjust, it just drags, you know,
meaning comes from purpose. And and to apply our skills in
in a way that's useful, that youcan see things impacted by that
in a positive way is one of life's great joys.
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Thanks, Mary. Mary, what is what is special
energy? I, I feel on this this episode,
and I think it's in in large part from you.
It's definitely not from Joe's jokes.
But I do, I want to be, yeah, I want to hone in on something
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that you said and it had to do with like, you know, layer three
or four of your vulnerability when you can, when you can
really have like, you know, level 20 or really going down to
the core, you know, essence of, of your soul and being able to,
to translate that. And and then there's something
else that you said, which kind of the consultant in me, which
is it's easier to help other people sort through it than to
(28:49):
sort through our own, you know, mess of a journey and
experience. And then there's this other
theme in my life of, you know, I'm not a songwriter, but I did
support helping my brother and and Co authoring a a book with
him that came out in in 2017, kind of telling his story of
exiting the military in the broken medical system.
(29:10):
And then kind of like a a way forward, which to your point
was, you know, vulnerability of him to share that experience.
And then it's like growing in this, you know, space.
And it's it's kind of like maybethe parallels are when you can
just be vulnerable and you're right, and you don't know what's
going to happen. And then your record comes out
and it's this like incredible hit.
(29:31):
But then it's like, what about the sophomore album?
How do you follow that up? How do you go back to the
vulnerability to the authenticity to be able, you
know, to find that? And so I would just be
interested to hear a little bit more about maybe how you've, you
know, navigated that to be able to because what is it really?
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It's something about the the mindset and giving yourself
permission to just do the work and maybe be like detached from
the outcome and then letting that that sort itself out.
And that's a hard thing for me to do.
I feel like in in my life at this stage right now is to just
get into stop thinking about it and just do the next phase of
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the work. It's the next step.
That, you know, I say this everyday.
The point of the work is the work.
I'm not on the results committee.
I don't know what, what, what the impact, if any, will be from
my work. But I do know when a song is not
(30:36):
complete and I have to do more work on it, like I have to keep
like, you know, using the metaphor, taking the elevator
like this, this line is here andthe truth is here.
And I got to find my way down and I don't know how to get
there. It's like being in a dark cave
with a box of matches. You light one, it goes out and
it's dark again. And it's trying to find that,
(30:58):
that that deeper thing that I know is there, but I don't have
access. And I'm digging and I'm digging.
It's like an archaeologist. I'm digging up bones, looking
for answers. I don't know what I'm looking
for until I find it. I know I'm not there, but I, I
don't know how to get there. And so I have to do the work.
And that is the whole point. And, and being in the work to me
(31:23):
is, is, is both very hard and joyful because like, again, I
know that's what I'm supposed tobe doing.
I don't know what impact my, my,my work is going to have ever,
but, but I, I do know my integrity and I do know that,
(31:43):
that when a song it, it is stillnot there.
I have a lot of work to do. And, and, and I know when a song
is there, it's time to write another one.
And I, I, I don't really try to think of it in terms of
sophomore effort or what's next for the record business.
It's more like what's troubling me today?
(32:04):
What's, what's confusing me today?
What, what am I passionate abouttoday?
What, what is making me, what ismaking me feel alive today?
What, what matters today? And, and that's in front of me.
And I need to articulate that. And, and I never know where
these songs are. I don't even have any idea where
(32:26):
they come from. 'Cause I have such an
appreciation for the the boldness of artists to, to be
able to go through the process that you just talked about.
But then to be able to to put that out, that's going to live
there in a way that people consume it for.
Yeah, it's made. It's a catch and release, right?
You know you don't eat the fish catch.
(32:47):
I got a little. Bit of a quick fun one before I
push it over to to Joe. If you could Co write a song
with anyone, who would it be andwhy?
Oh man. Maybe that's a really hard.
Maybe that's a hard one. It could be anyone.
It doesn't have to be the personyou would write with.
(33:08):
Just what? Dead or alive?
Yeah, you could do dead or alive.
Do you like to Co? Do you like to Co write?
Yeah, I do Co write a lot but I'm very intimidated by my
heroes. Yeah, it's hard.
Oh, I got a great question. Go ahead, go ahead, do your
thing. You know, I, I had a writing
(33:31):
date on the books with John Prine, who's one of my
songwriting heroes, and I cancelled it because I thought I
was catching a cold or something.
I knew he had, he had been up against a lot of health issues
and I cancelled it and we were going to reschedule it.
And two weeks later his wife gotCOVID.
And, you know, a few weeks afterthat, John passed away.
(33:52):
I, I missed my chance to write. I I, I was catching the code,
but I was also, in all honesty, intimidated by like, how do I
sit in the room right with, you know, Oh my God, am I so you'd.
Have blamed yourself though, youknow, if you had went through
with it, you would have been like, what if I got him sick,
you know? And I do, or what if you got me,
(34:13):
Jamie, my partner, you know, what if you got COVID going
right over there back then, there was no, I mean, it was, it
was a pretty terrifying thing toget it.
I don't know. I, it's a hard question to
answer. I would, of course, if I was, if
I, if I had the confidence, I'd love to write with Bob Dylan or
Bruce Springsteen or Leonard Cohen or Johnny Cash or Kris
(34:37):
Kristofferson or, you know, the,the, I love the storytellers.
I love the, the people whose language in their song is as
important, if not more importantthan the melody.
And those are the my heroes, andthose are the.
Ones that last though, you know,Sunday morning coming down, you
(34:57):
know, you got Johnny Cash's version of Hurt where it's just
sung, even though it wasn't his songwriting.
Trent Reznor was like, that's his, like that that song was
made. That song his own and yeah, and
millions of people heard that song that wouldn't have heard
that song if Johnny hadn't have made that video, which I think
(35:18):
is one of the greatest music videos of all time.
Absolutely. I got chills all over my whole
body right now that it was such a beautiful, haunting, just
haunting. Because it was real.
And yet the universal who hadn'tbeen hurt.
And if you're lucky, you get to get old and understand what he
even means by that. I mean, his wife was dead two
(35:38):
months after that video was made.
There, there, there. There is a humanity to it.
That's just universal, Yeah. And I don't know if I'd have the
courage to write with my heroes,but if I did, those some of my
heroes right there. Beautiful.
So I'm so excited to say all this.
OK so first of all, when I started looking you up and and
(36:00):
and I am not far enough into Yellowstone to have heard yet
your song pop up. But when I looked it up, I
realized a bunch of things aboutyou that are really great.
And I wanted you to hear one of the things that popped up as
soon as I typed in Mercy Now, which is what song is that?
(36:23):
Who's you know, who's singing that?
Who's the writer? Who there's 1000 people who
heard that song and and immediately jumped on Google and
was like, OK, what was that? Who was that?
Tell me more. They needed to know more.
I would love to hear what it felt like when they reached out
(36:43):
to you. I want to hear that success
story of being like you've, you've done these amazing
things. And then you get Boy George that
covers it on a Rolling Stones live session, which is just
bananas. I mean that that that Boy George
was like, I'm going to do a a Rolling Stones live session and
I'm going to sing one of Mary's songs.
(37:06):
Like do you know him or was he just a fan of yours?
He and sorry, that's sort of twoquestions, but I this was like.
Where George is a sober guy, Yeah, he, he had a horrible
bottom and ended up, I think he went to, to jail.
I think he, he had a very bad bottom and he got sober.
(37:30):
And so we share that and I thinkanother sober friend of his
played that song for him and that's how he found me.
And so we have a sort of a social media relationship.
We converse on the socials, but I have not met him.
As far as Yellowstone goes, I didn't even that.
(37:53):
That was presented to the woman who handles my publishing before
Yellowstone was a hit. Yellowstone hung around a long
time before it was a hit. It caught fire after season 2 or
three, I think, or episode 2, I don't really remember.
After episode 2 or three, it didn't come out of the out of
the out of the gate I hit. And so she just negotiated the
(38:16):
fee and I didn't know that it was going to be the, the the
song that played for almost 3 minutes at the end of I think
episode 2 or 3. I think it's a season finale.
It's a big one and it it introduced me to a lot of new
people and I didn't. Oh, Mary, you're so humble.
(38:37):
Yeah. I just.
Kind of like a a three second this.
Show that everyone is talking about you.
You put a pin in it, like, come on, that's pretty baller I.
Didn't they? Did they found This is the thing
with songs. They were looking for that song
that that universal human momentthat that needed.
(39:02):
And, and the words in the song really mattered, which in film
and television they rarely do. They want a vibe, not the words.
They got the words the, the, the, the screenwriters, the,
the, the, the, the people who write the dialogue.
They got the words. They just want the music to
create a vibe. But in that moment it was silent
and, and, and so the words came in and, and, and they were
(39:23):
necessary. I didn't know when I wrote that
in 2001 there would be a show called Yellowstone and 20
something years later. Your debut album, right?
I didn't know, you know, I had no idea.
And and that's it. You can't know.
Back to the thing we were talking about earlier, you just
do the work. The point of the work is the
work. And at some point the work will
(39:43):
go out and do what it's supposedto do or not.
But you can't control it, and you certainly can't control
timing, so you just do the work.And I was super happy about that
placement. It introduced me to a whole new
group of people that would have never found me.
And it made my nephew think I'm cool, which.
Is and that's really good. I do a lot of public speaking.
(40:07):
The only time I'm ever nervous, I don't care who I'm in front
of. The only time I'm ever really, I
get a little nervous, but the only time I'm ever like nervous
is when I'm speaking to my kids schools or something because I'm
like if I mess this up, long term ramifications for them.
Yeah, this one matters. Yeah, yeah, this one matters.
Yeah. Oh wow.
Wow, you're amazing. So Alpha's Mary's got his book.
(40:29):
It's called Saved by a song thatyou can pick up on her website,
Mary Goucher. And as Joe pointed out, for
those of you who are not in the thank you Mary.
There you go. That's a nice cover.
It's Mary TAUTHIE r.com. It's part memoir, part art, part
songwriting, nuts and bolts, butall solid gold.
(40:50):
So be sure to get on her site. You can there.
You can also find her her tour schedule.
So she may be coming through your neck of the woods.
You don't want to miss the opportunity to hear Mary live.
I mean it. It'll etch your soul.
She's incredible. She brings me to tears every
time I hear her sing. She's just got one of those life
(41:10):
altering voices, but you can also see her discology there and
get her songs and social media channels.
You can follow that Lady online.Stalk her like everybody else
does. She's popular, and if you want
to be popular too, you'll you'llyou'll stalk.
Her too, all the cool kids like.Mary, all the cool kids like her
(41:31):
Mary I have. Just ask her nephew.
I have one more fun question I want to leave you with.
What's one lyric that struck you, that has stuck with you,
that has really stood the test of time?
It could be yours, it could be somebody else's.
(41:51):
Well, recently I've been quotingBruce Springsteen, the promised
Land. Poor man want to be rich, Rich
man want to be king. King ain't satisfied till he
rules everything. It's that insatiability that
explains so much that I also have to battle.
(42:13):
And it's just so concise. The Boss has so many lyrics that
are credible, but that one there, it seems right for the
times we live in that like, why do billionaires need to do
whatever that is? It's like more, please, more.
And oh man, pride always comes before the fall.
(42:34):
I think there's a warning in what Bruce is singing and I
just, I need, need to heed that for myself.
Yeah. Well, before we sign off, was
there anything that that we didn't necessarily touched on
that you thought would be important we should?
Yeah, you know, I didn't get to the word alchemy, and I always
love to put that word out there.Why write in such a way that
(42:55):
you're down there digging aroundin the dirt of, of, of your
humanity? Because it's healing.
Because it takes this thing and turns it into something else.
It's alchemy. It's alchemizing.
It's transformative. You do it to move things
forward. You do it to heal.
(43:16):
You do it to let go of of of of of one understanding and have a
larger understanding that has less anger and less shame and
less hurt. It's alchemy.
That's the point of this is to is to transform.
(43:37):
I love that. Let's see your book one more
time. Mary saved by a song?
What kind? Of guitar is that.
That's a 1950s SJ Gibson. And that strap was given to me
by B Spears, who for many, many years played bass with Willie
Nelson. Oh, he said.
You're a, you're a star kid. I'm going to get you a strap.
You're a star. And so that's the strap I'm
(43:58):
going to use forever. I love you, Mary.
Love y'all, thank you for doing this with me, thanks for having.
Me on. Thanks for being here.
Thanks. It's Grace.
Thank you so much for visiting us today.
And Alphas, please stick around for for some scuttlebutt after
the break. Welcome back, Alphas.
We're keeping things short and sweet on the countdown, so
there's no scuttlebutt today, but thanks for taking the trip
(44:20):
down memory lane with us. We really hope you guys enjoyed
the episode. On behalf of the entire Tal
Podcast team, we hope you're enjoying time with your loved
ones during the holiday season. If you miss us during the
holidays, which I know you are, you can always subscribe to our
podcast, our newsletter, or sendus guests and mail
recommendations at legion.org. Back slash Tal Salon.
(44:43):
Salon.
We're back. Alphas.
We're coming in hot with inspiring guests, witty banter
and colorful commentary for today's veterans and military
community. This is the Tal.
Podcast. Hi there, Alphas.
During the holiday season, the Tal podcast team is taking a
break. Need a break?
(00:21):
But while we're gone, we do havea little bonus content for you.
So we've looked back at all the things we've done during Season
6 and we've come up with a list of our our top six most
impactful guests from 2025. And that was not easy.
It really was difficult. There are so many great guests,
but we'll be re releasing those interviews this week.
So if you haven't already subscribed to Tango Halima on
(00:43):
Spotify, Apple Podcast, YouTube,or you know, wherever you get
your podcast, don't miss our countdown.
We've got we've got you covered all the way back in January, we
talked to the talented Grammy nominated American folk
singer-songwriter, author, and my dear friend Mary Gaucher.
We talked to her about her musiccareer, her addiction, her
(01:03):
recovery, mental health journey,and how she uses songwriting to
help veterans with PTSD. We had such a great conversation
with Mary about the healing power of music.
And you know, I had my own experiences with organization,
an organization she volunteers for songwriting, songwriting
with soldiers and Mary is an absolute treasure.
(01:24):
What did you guys have as a takeaway when when we talked to
Mary? For me personally, I, I hate
having this reinforced, but it seems like some of the best
music comes from pain. And, and as much as I hate that
people have to go through, you know, through things, it's so
beautiful to see someone take those things and make something
(01:45):
incredible and creative out of it.
You know, I feel like in a lot of ways, a lot of what we do
comes from a place of making purpose out of the things that
we've gone through. It sounds dramatic, you know,
purpose through pain, but in a lot of ways, when you hurt,
you're like, I just want to makepeople better.
I want to make people happy. You know, Stacey, what you do I
think is incredible. And I think it's it's very
(02:07):
similar of being able to take that creative element.
And you know, Adam, you work tirelessly.
So I know that we're talking about, you know, you know, Miss
Mary Gachet here. But like, that's what brought
this up to me is it was a reminder that that you can take
the every, these, everything, all the bad things that we go
through and make something really incredible out of it.
(02:28):
I think for me, it's always sucha joy when you can get to be
with somebody who's just a generationally at the top of
their craft. And yeah, when you're able to
meet with somebody like that who's also so raw and authentic
and and vulnerable, and then youlayer that on with like, you
(02:49):
know, her friends and the peoplethat she stared stages with,
which are the the top music names in, in, you know, the
industry. And then of her herself, like
her own story career. It like the whole thing together
was just it. It was, it was a, it was a
Symphony of an episode and it was very powerful and
meaningful. Hey, was that in a meaningful
(03:11):
play on words? Adam, did you see Symphony?
That's right. I did.
I made a pun. I love it.
I am really thankful that we're going to be listening to this
episode one more time. So, Alpha, stick around after
the break and we'll go all the way back to episode 247 for our
interview with the Mary Goucher.American Values and Patriotism
(03:36):
The American Legion advocates for upholding and defending the
United States Constitution, equal justice and opportunity
for everyone, and discriminationagainst no one.
Youth education, responsible citizenship, and honoring
military service by observing and participating in patriotic
(03:56):
and memorial events. We are veterans strengthening
America. We are the American Legion.
Hey, alphas, today we are joinedby the amazing folk
singer-songwriter Mary Gaucher, and we're going to spell that
out for you in case you want to look her up because you're not
(04:17):
going to be able to find her by looking up the word Gaucher.
So it's GAUTHIER. Mary, thank you so much and
welcome to the Tal Podcast. So nice to be with you all
today. Yeah, all those French Creole
people out there, like we knew exactly how that was spelled.
You didn't need to spell it out for us.
Hey, Mary, so good. So good to have you on the show.
(04:42):
And I'm happy that all the alphas are going to be able to
be able to meet you and, and know you and love you as much as
I do because you're just an incredible person.
I want to dive right in because,you know, I've, I've had years
to get to know you since we met with our volunteers and through
(05:03):
songwriting with Soldiers. And I know in our early
conversations, I was one of the things that really intrigued me
about your story was that you actually got your start as a
chef. Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
So you, you were creative on more than just music levels.
Can you talk to me a little bit about why?
(05:25):
Why food and what brought you tomusic?
Yeah, well, it's a twisty, windyRd. isn't it?
The, the journey is not linear for anyone, I don't think.
And mine has certainly been anything but.
I was in the restaurant businessas a kid because it was the one
(05:46):
thing I could do where they wouldn't make me wear a dress.
And I'm just a woman that's opposed to dresses on myself.
I just, I just didn't like him as a kid.
I didn't like him as a teenager,and I just wasn't going to wear
a dress. And if I worked in the kitchen,
I could wear what I wanted to wear.
And so that's how I got into therestaurant business.
(06:08):
It was really a matter of clothing.
Also, I was very good at going fast, which during the rush you
got to roll, and I'm good at that.
Multitasking is also something Iseem to excel at.
So I ended up there and then I realized to to really get good
at it, I should go to school andlearn how to cook and, and
(06:30):
really learn how to cook. So I went to chef school and
ended up finding investors and opening a couple of restaurants.
As a incredibly young person before I was 27, I was part
owner of three different restaurants in the Boston area.
I got arrested for drunk drivingopening night of restaurant #3
(06:52):
which was July 1990. And that was a come to Jesus for
me. And I realized I got a problem
and I got to deal with it. And it was humiliating and and a
powerful experience for me to spend the night in a drunk tank.
(07:13):
And that was the last time I consumed drugs or alcohol.
I'm 34 years sober now. I was was going so fast in my
life and doing so many things and, and, and to burn off steam.
I would just go to the bar and drink and that had to stop.
(07:35):
And it was probably the worst day of my life and the best day
of my life because it changed everything.
It was the fork in the road for me.
And about two years after that, I was sober.
From that point on, I was brought to an open mic by a
waitress that worked for me at one of my restaurants.
And an open mic, for listeners who aren't familiar with that,
(07:56):
is a place where a songwriter ora musician or a poet can, you
know, pay a few bucks and be given the opportunity to get in
front of an audience. Now you have to wait a while.
There's usually 30 or 40 people who sign up, and they call names
or draw numbers. And when your name is called,
you get on stage and do your thing.
And I saw my waitress perform anoriginal song.
(08:17):
My restaurant at the time was inBoston next to Berkeley College
of Music. So I worked around a lot of
musicians and music teachers. And being at the open mic just
blew my mind. And I I saw her on stage sing a
song and it was like a light bulb screwed in.
I just, I want to do that. I want to do that.
(08:39):
And I hadn't written any songs. I always had a guitar and I
played, you know, the songs thatI liked, cover songs, but I
never played professionally or in bars.
I just kind of played with friends and stuff.
But when I saw her sing and play, I, I wanted to do that.
And that was another fork in theroad for me.
I just started writing, trying to get a song so I could get on
(09:01):
that stage and play it and, and it became all consuming for me.
I obviously have an addictive personality and this took off
for me. I, I wanted to become better at
songwriting and, and learn how to how to communicate that way.
And about 10 years after that, Imoved to Nashville and became a
(09:22):
professional songwriter, left the restaurant behind.
So I think music and song have this in common with food.
They both are ways of expressinglove.
They're 22 lifestyles for somebody who you know, without,
with alcohol, you're, you're in a very close proximity with two
(09:43):
lifestyles that could bring you in close proximity with that.
How do you walk that line, Mary?How do you deal with that?
Well, the beauty of recovery is you don't have to deal with it.
You just surrender. You know the.
Recovery is I can't handle it. I, I have proven time and time
again that I cannot handle it and I have a white flag and I
(10:05):
just wave it and that in a very powerful and real lifeway
removes the, the compulsion. So I can be around alcohol.
I, I don't spend time around time around drugs, but but I can
be around alcohol and I just, I don't want it, but, but I do the
work to, to stay in that place of surrender.
(10:29):
As soon as I think I can handle it, I'm in trouble.
I just know I can't. People don't get arrested for
drunk driving because they're, they're, they're handling
alcohol very well. And so it's not like I go to the
bar and hang out. But if I play at a club or
there's alcohol at a party or, or you know what, wherever
(10:53):
drinks are served, if I have a good reason to be there, I'm not
at all worried about getting drunk because I have a
protection around me, which is which is my recovery.
I. Really love the the parallels
that you drew, Mary, about food and music are both expressions
(11:14):
of love, and there's these creative expressions of love.
And so for your music, your songs are known for finding
beauty and sorrow and healing and loss.
What advice would you give to someone who feels stuck in their
pain and doesn't know how to start expressing it creatively
(11:37):
and not yet maybe knowing that it's an expression of love that
they're actually looking for? Yeah.
You know, one of the profound things that I learned leaving
the restaurant and becoming a songwriter is that there is a
universal thread that connects us all as people and it
(11:57):
transcends all the things that we think divide us, race, age,
nationality, gender, sexuality. There's a just a humanity that
we we share and that that human experience, that humanity is,
is, is deeply attached to vulnerability, really emotional
(12:22):
vulnerability. And I think that the expression
through story of our, of our humanity is a service and, and
that service is needed by those who aren't able to express such
things. And they can see themselves in
(12:44):
that expression and know they'renot alone.
So, you know, when I'm, when I'mworking through songwriting with
soldiers, with veterans trying to help come up with a story, a
song that that they're comfortable contributing two,
what I, I try to emphasize is that is that this could be of
(13:04):
service and useful to other people, that this could be a
lifeline actually, and often is throwing a lifeline is not what
we think it is. It is almost counterintuitive.
The same way that surrender can help an addict win, you know,
expression of vulnerability and emotional fragility in some way
(13:31):
is a lifeline to those who are experiencing it and unable to
show it because they feel shame around it.
Well, and I really love the aspect that you call out about
service as well, because it's this thing about being able to
put our focus and awareness on something other than ourselves.
And I think even for me personally in my own journey,
(13:53):
you know, and I realized not to say that I was like, you know,
self-centered or, or just like focus on myself, but you get
caught up with, you know, the, the program of, of the world
over time. And when I look back and I say
the times that I was maybe most,you know, broken or out of
alignment was when I was fighting just for myself.
But when I turned it around and made it about service towards
(14:17):
others, towards the community, towards maybe the veteran
community that's, you know, hurting in a lot of respects
with the ability to, to heal andaddress, you know, some of these
things. Then I noticed that my cup began
to to overflow and I got more than I needed because the act of
(14:37):
service was so powerful on the healing process.
And I love that you highlight that.
So thank you. Thanks, Adam.
It's interesting, isn't it? The mathematics of love it it
it's it's again the counter intuitive, but the more you
give, the more you have. And often times for me, just
singing my, my, my, my deep concerns and my, my deepest self
(15:05):
past navel gazing, past reading my diary.
But the deepest stuff that I protect as sacred, putting that
into verse and song, it is indeed an act of service because
somebody out there is going to go wow, me too.
I didn't know anybody else felt that way.
(15:26):
You know, one of the things thatwe've got to go ahead.
Yeah. I was just going to say I'm
sorry, is the sense that we're the only one who's ever felt
this way. And that's just not possible.
That that however we're feeling,there's probably millions of
other people who have felt that way.
You know, it's, it's funny, you know, you're, you're, you're
saying this and it's exactly what my where my mind is at.
(15:48):
I think a lot of times people don't realize that there's a
skill in recognizing love because when, for instance, when
you're writing and when you're doing the things you, it takes a
bit of an aged mind to finally grow up enough and mature enough
to realize what love looks like.And it does not look like the
same thing. Words are not what love is.
(16:10):
And I don't mean lyrically. I mean when somebody says I love
you, that's not what love feels like.
What love feels like is when somebody gives of themselves
when they when they share something of themselves that
they don't have to share with noask of return because they just
want you to be a part of it. And I've always wrote poetry.
I've always written, I love to write.
(16:31):
And I did not realize that the skill difference between writing
poetry versus music. We, I, I'm in a, a band as well.
And, and one of the things that I learned is that I did not know
how to write music, but I did know how to tell a story.
And I did have a friend that knew how to write music and how
(16:51):
to write lyrics and to make the words make sense and flow in a
way that they needed to. And, and I think in a lot of
ways for some people, it's easy to reach out and, and who people
who know love to be able to put that in their lyrics.
So the people who hear those things can, can, can share in
what you're feeling in a way that that some people aren't
(17:13):
able. I mean, you've got writers out
there like Kris Kristofferson and people like that who write
words that make people really stop what they're doing and
think. I've always been fascinated by
that. And so as somebody who's turned
personal pain and life experiences into art, that
really resonates with me. You know you, but how do you
(17:35):
approach writing songs that resonate not just to the
specific group of people that that may have shared some
aspects of your life and your pain?
But as I got through on the other side of my injury, I was a
corpsman with two one Marines. I lost my left leg and but on
the backside of all that, I realized that the things that
I've been through, the trauma that I've been through ends up
(17:57):
exactly the same as what someonewho's been through something
else went through. We live in the same
neighborhood. We just drove different cars to
get there. And some of us drove real fast
and some of us drove real slow over their whole lives dealing
with things. And, but we all end up in a
neighborhood where we kind of know each other and we kind of
see each other and wave and, andcan look in each other's eyes
(18:17):
and see where we're hurting. How do you find a way to make
your lyrics resonate the way that they do?
We listen. We listen to Mercy now, and I
know that that's got to be something that hurts to talk
about. How do you still show love in a
way that doesn't seem bitter andcondesce?
How do you do that? How do you write lyrics in the
(18:38):
way that you do that does something that beautiful?
I wish I could answer that. It's Yeah, I believe there's
divine assistance involved. For one, I think there's a
there's a metaphor that I use when I work with songwriters.
I teach songwriting quite a bit these days.
And I tell them, look, you're trying to just hang out the
window of a fast moving vehicle with a lightning rod.
(19:01):
You're just conducting electricity.
And the electricity I think is the thread that connects us all.
There is something bigger than us that we're made of and trying
to taproot into that. There's a universal to being
human and it it, it, it, it has nothing to do with with the
(19:24):
things of the world even really it's it, it, it doesn't exist
even in time. And and so I could sing a song I
Co wrote with a veteran who served in Iraq or Afghanistan.
And I have it resonate with a family that is dealing with the
(19:44):
wounds of World War 2 or a Italian family who's still
grappling with the impact of Mussolini and the divisions in
Italy. It just goes through time and
and and I think that there's a deepness.
So what I would say, Joe, is go all the way down.
Like I think a mistake that somewriters make is they go down two
(20:06):
or three flights and they think that's cool when when they've
got 20 flights, they could go down, but I can get past four or
five. It's scary.
Because it becomes genuinely vulnerable to say such things.
But that's where the goldmine is.
That's where I think the electricity is.
(20:26):
You know, it's a terrible thing to have to say, but you need to
scare yourself. You have to go, should I say
that? Who am I to say this?
Or should I say this? Why would I say this?
This is going to make me feel very exposed.
And I think if artists are unwilling to do that, we've run
(20:47):
out of people in our culture whowill.
We're the last people standing willing to do that.
And why do that? Because there's people out there
who are hanging by a thread who,when they hear it, that
resonance, it resonates. There's a vibration that happens
for music, but there's also a spiritual vibration.
(21:09):
That resonance is indication that they feel alone, but
they're not alone that someone else understands what.
I had the great thrill of doing a couple of tours with Willie
Nelson. And one night at the end of a
tour, we were standing around atthe bar where where with the
hotel we were staying at, at thegrand ending of the tour.
(21:32):
And I got to ask him the question, Willie, why do people
like the sad song so much? He said.
Mary, I think it's because they figure if it could happen to old
Willie, it could happen to anybody.
I think there's truth in that. You know, I'm crazy for crying,
crazy for trying, I'm crazy for loving you.
If Willie can feel that way and he's legend, icon, multi
(21:55):
millionaire, then it could happen to anybody.
There's almost a relief in knowing that other people suffer
the same way I do. Yeah.
That's fair. Yeah.
Relatability to, I suppose. Yeah.
You got, you got involved in songwriting with soldiers quite
(22:18):
early on and that was several years ago now.
I want to say that was probably 2009 maybe that started up.
That's. Pretty close to the beginning of
the program. I don't know how long, I'm not
good at time. I know, I know, but but you, you
have touched so many lives and then during that time you
(22:41):
actually went above and beyond and got involved with veterans
on your own time to write an album of your own called Rifles
and Rosary Beads which you Co wrote with military veterans and
their families. That album actually got you a
lot of recognition for your hardwork, including a Grammy
(23:03):
nomination. Can you talk to me a little bit
about your experiences early on with songwriting with soldiers
your and how how that work impacted you personally?
Was it good? Bad.
The pitfalls for their mental health, Your mental health
journey, What kind of impacts ithas had on your creative
(23:27):
creativity, your music, your career, etcetera.
Great. Great question, Stacey.
I love talking about this because I went in pretty nervous
not knowing, first of all, if I could write a song in in an hour
and a half, two hours Max is allthe time.
You get like, you know, it takesme a long time to sort things
(23:48):
out in a song. What I didn't realize it takes a
long time to start my things outin a song if I'm bearing witness
and not entering the conversation as Mary Gaucher,
but more as a witness, I could ask questions of someone and
help that story to come alive much quicker than they own
confusion of my own experience. But but my my concern was that I
(24:10):
couldn't do it fast enough. And my other concern was that I
didn't know anything about the military.
The experience of my, my father served in Korea, but the one
thing he, he just never did was talk about it.
And so I have no reference for, for, for the experience.
And I felt that my ignorance wasnot an asset in, in any way.
(24:33):
And it was scary that I wasn't going to be able to do the job
well. And I wanted to do the job well.
And, and, and what I learned almost within an hour is that
that doesn't matter. What matters is the willingness
and ability to listen in the spirit of non judgement and just
bear witness and then help to transcribe what I'm told into a
(24:56):
melody and a lyric. And I found so many common, as
you, you and I did, so many common bonds between the, the,
the, the women and men who served in their families and
myself that, that I didn't know,I didn't expect.
I just thought you all were of adifferent ilk than, you know, a
(25:22):
drug addict, alcoholic artist, you know, gay person like me,
like we've got nothing in common.
And boy was I wrong. I was absolutely stereotyping.
And an interesting thing is thatI was afraid of being
stereotyped and I was stereotyping.
(25:44):
That was a revelation that my, my labeling and, and, and, and
sort of categorizing who I thought I was going to go work
with was, was, was was a form ofstereotyping.
And I didn't, I didn't even knowI was doing that.
(26:05):
And that was a revelation that Ineed to put down the
preconceived ideas and just listen and experience each
person as an individual. Nobody's a category.
We're all individuals with strengths, weaknesses and
stories. And one of the other answers I
love to give for this question that's really important, I
(26:27):
think, is that the work that I've done with the veterans and
with songwriting, with soldiers has been deeply connected to
purpose for me. Like I may maybe I was given
this talent to to be of service and this is a way I can be of
service that has real life implications.
It's not to be maybe, maybe not to be, you know, a, A star or a
(26:56):
hit songwriter or my name on themarquee.
Maybe that's not the, the, the, the, that's not what the gift
was about. Maybe the gift was really about
taking this ability to transcribe and and translate and
and make song out of human experience.
Maybe that gift was an opportunity to be of deeper
(27:17):
service in this lifetime to people around me who who could,
who could really use some help finding the words to what the
hell they're feeling. And that connection collided
with purpose almost instantaneously with me.
And, and the experience of beingin purpose, as we, you know, as,
as we all know, is, is one of meaning.
(27:39):
Without purpose, life is life isjust, it just drags, you know,
meaning comes from purpose. And and to apply our skills in
in a way that's useful, that youcan see things impacted by that
in a positive way is one of life's great joys.
(28:03):
Thanks, Mary. Mary, what is what is special
energy? I, I feel on this this episode,
and I think it's in in large part from you.
It's definitely not from Joe's jokes.
But I do, I want to be, yeah, I want to hone in on something
(28:26):
that you said and it had to do with like, you know, layer three
or four of your vulnerability when you can, when you can
really have like, you know, level 20 or really going down to
the core, you know, essence of, of your soul and being able to,
to translate that. And and then there's something
else that you said, which kind of the consultant in me, which
is it's easier to help other people sort through it than to
(28:49):
sort through our own, you know, mess of a journey and
experience. And then there's this other
theme in my life of, you know, I'm not a songwriter, but I did
support helping my brother and and Co authoring a a book with
him that came out in in 2017, kind of telling his story of
exiting the military in the broken medical system.
(29:10):
And then kind of like a a way forward, which to your point
was, you know, vulnerability of him to share that experience.
And then it's like growing in this, you know, space.
And it's it's kind of like maybethe parallels are when you can
just be vulnerable and you're right, and you don't know what's
going to happen. And then your record comes out
and it's this like incredible hit.
(29:31):
But then it's like, what about the sophomore album?
How do you follow that up? How do you go back to the
vulnerability to the authenticity to be able, you
know, to find that? And so I would just be
interested to hear a little bit more about maybe how you've, you
know, navigated that to be able to because what is it really?
(29:53):
It's something about the the mindset and giving yourself
permission to just do the work and maybe be like detached from
the outcome and then letting that that sort itself out.
And that's a hard thing for me to do.
I feel like in in my life at this stage right now is to just
get into stop thinking about it and just do the next phase of
(30:15):
the work. It's the next step.
That, you know, I say this everyday.
The point of the work is the work.
I'm not on the results committee.
I don't know what, what, what the impact, if any, will be from
my work. But I do know when a song is not
(30:36):
complete and I have to do more work on it, like I have to keep
like, you know, using the metaphor, taking the elevator
like this, this line is here andthe truth is here.
And I got to find my way down and I don't know how to get
there. It's like being in a dark cave
with a box of matches. You light one, it goes out and
it's dark again. And it's trying to find that,
(30:58):
that that deeper thing that I know is there, but I don't have
access. And I'm digging and I'm digging.
It's like an archaeologist. I'm digging up bones, looking
for answers. I don't know what I'm looking
for until I find it. I know I'm not there, but I, I
don't know how to get there. And so I have to do the work.
And that is the whole point. And, and being in the work to me
(31:23):
is, is, is both very hard and joyful because like, again, I
know that's what I'm supposed tobe doing.
I don't know what impact my, my,my work is going to have ever,
but, but I, I do know my integrity and I do know that,
(31:43):
that when a song it, it is stillnot there.
I have a lot of work to do. And, and, and I know when a song
is there, it's time to write another one.
And I, I, I don't really try to think of it in terms of
sophomore effort or what's next for the record business.
It's more like what's troubling me today?
(32:04):
What's, what's confusing me today?
What, what am I passionate abouttoday?
What, what is making me, what ismaking me feel alive today?
What, what matters today? And, and that's in front of me.
And I need to articulate that. And, and I never know where
these songs are. I don't even have any idea where
(32:26):
they come from. 'Cause I have such an
appreciation for the the boldness of artists to, to be
able to go through the process that you just talked about.
But then to be able to to put that out, that's going to live
there in a way that people consume it for.
Yeah, it's made. It's a catch and release, right?
You know you don't eat the fish catch.
(32:47):
I got a little. Bit of a quick fun one before I
push it over to to Joe. If you could Co write a song
with anyone, who would it be andwhy?
Oh man. Maybe that's a really hard.
Maybe that's a hard one. It could be anyone.
It doesn't have to be the personyou would write with.
(33:08):
Just what? Dead or alive?
Yeah, you could do dead or alive.
Do you like to Co? Do you like to Co write?
Yeah, I do Co write a lot but I'm very intimidated by my
heroes. Yeah, it's hard.
Oh, I got a great question. Go ahead, go ahead, do your
thing. You know, I, I had a writing
(33:31):
date on the books with John Prine, who's one of my
songwriting heroes, and I cancelled it because I thought I
was catching a cold or something.
I knew he had, he had been up against a lot of health issues
and I cancelled it and we were going to reschedule it.
And two weeks later his wife gotCOVID.
And, you know, a few weeks afterthat, John passed away.
(33:52):
I, I missed my chance to write. I I, I was catching the code,
but I was also, in all honesty, intimidated by like, how do I
sit in the room right with, you know, Oh my God, am I so you'd.
Have blamed yourself though, youknow, if you had went through
with it, you would have been like, what if I got him sick,
you know? And I do, or what if you got me,
(34:13):
Jamie, my partner, you know, what if you got COVID going
right over there back then, there was no, I mean, it was, it
was a pretty terrifying thing toget it.
I don't know. I, it's a hard question to
answer. I would, of course, if I was, if
I, if I had the confidence, I'd love to write with Bob Dylan or
Bruce Springsteen or Leonard Cohen or Johnny Cash or Kris
(34:37):
Kristofferson or, you know, the,the, I love the storytellers.
I love the, the people whose language in their song is as
important, if not more importantthan the melody.
And those are the my heroes, andthose are the.
Ones that last though, you know,Sunday morning coming down, you
(34:57):
know, you got Johnny Cash's version of Hurt where it's just
sung, even though it wasn't his songwriting.
Trent Reznor was like, that's his, like that that song was
made. That song his own and yeah, and
millions of people heard that song that wouldn't have heard
that song if Johnny hadn't have made that video, which I think
(35:18):
is one of the greatest music videos of all time.
Absolutely. I got chills all over my whole
body right now that it was such a beautiful, haunting, just
haunting. Because it was real.
And yet the universal who hadn'tbeen hurt.
And if you're lucky, you get to get old and understand what he
even means by that. I mean, his wife was dead two
(35:38):
months after that video was made.
There, there, there. There is a humanity to it.
That's just universal, Yeah. And I don't know if I'd have the
courage to write with my heroes,but if I did, those some of my
heroes right there. Beautiful.
So I'm so excited to say all this.
OK so first of all, when I started looking you up and and
(36:00):
and I am not far enough into Yellowstone to have heard yet
your song pop up. But when I looked it up, I
realized a bunch of things aboutyou that are really great.
And I wanted you to hear one of the things that popped up as
soon as I typed in Mercy Now, which is what song is that?
(36:23):
Who's you know, who's singing that?
Who's the writer? Who there's 1000 people who
heard that song and and immediately jumped on Google and
was like, OK, what was that? Who was that?
Tell me more. They needed to know more.
I would love to hear what it felt like when they reached out
(36:43):
to you. I want to hear that success
story of being like you've, you've done these amazing
things. And then you get Boy George that
covers it on a Rolling Stones live session, which is just
bananas. I mean that that that Boy George
was like, I'm going to do a a Rolling Stones live session and
I'm going to sing one of Mary's songs.
(37:06):
Like do you know him or was he just a fan of yours?
He and sorry, that's sort of twoquestions, but I this was like.
Where George is a sober guy, Yeah, he, he had a horrible
bottom and ended up, I think he went to, to jail.
I think he, he had a very bad bottom and he got sober.
(37:30):
And so we share that and I thinkanother sober friend of his
played that song for him and that's how he found me.
And so we have a sort of a social media relationship.
We converse on the socials, but I have not met him.
As far as Yellowstone goes, I didn't even that.
(37:53):
That was presented to the woman who handles my publishing before
Yellowstone was a hit. Yellowstone hung around a long
time before it was a hit. It caught fire after season 2 or
three, I think, or episode 2, I don't really remember.
After episode 2 or three, it didn't come out of the out of
the out of the gate I hit. And so she just negotiated the
(38:16):
fee and I didn't know that it was going to be the, the the
song that played for almost 3 minutes at the end of I think
episode 2 or 3. I think it's a season finale.
It's a big one and it it introduced me to a lot of new
people and I didn't. Oh, Mary, you're so humble.
(38:37):
Yeah. I just.
Kind of like a a three second this.
Show that everyone is talking about you.
You put a pin in it, like, come on, that's pretty baller I.
Didn't they? Did they found This is the thing
with songs. They were looking for that song
that that universal human momentthat that needed.
(39:02):
And, and the words in the song really mattered, which in film
and television they rarely do. They want a vibe, not the words.
They got the words the, the, the, the screenwriters, the,
the, the, the, the people who write the dialogue.
They got the words. They just want the music to
create a vibe. But in that moment it was silent
and, and, and so the words came in and, and, and they were
(39:23):
necessary. I didn't know when I wrote that
in 2001 there would be a show called Yellowstone and 20
something years later. Your debut album, right?
I didn't know, you know, I had no idea.
And and that's it. You can't know.
Back to the thing we were talking about earlier, you just
do the work. The point of the work is the
work. And at some point the work will
(39:43):
go out and do what it's supposedto do or not.
But you can't control it, and you certainly can't control
timing, so you just do the work.And I was super happy about that
placement. It introduced me to a whole new
group of people that would have never found me.
And it made my nephew think I'm cool, which.
Is and that's really good. I do a lot of public speaking.
(40:07):
The only time I'm ever nervous, I don't care who I'm in front
of. The only time I'm ever really, I
get a little nervous, but the only time I'm ever like nervous
is when I'm speaking to my kids schools or something because I'm
like if I mess this up, long term ramifications for them.
Yeah, this one matters. Yeah, yeah, this one matters.
Yeah. Oh wow.
Wow, you're amazing. So Alpha's Mary's got his book.
(40:29):
It's called Saved by a song thatyou can pick up on her website,
Mary Goucher. And as Joe pointed out, for
those of you who are not in the thank you Mary.
There you go. That's a nice cover.
It's Mary TAUTHIE r.com. It's part memoir, part art, part
songwriting, nuts and bolts, butall solid gold.
(40:50):
So be sure to get on her site. You can there.
You can also find her her tour schedule.
So she may be coming through your neck of the woods.
You don't want to miss the opportunity to hear Mary live.
I mean it. It'll etch your soul.
She's incredible. She brings me to tears every
time I hear her sing. She's just got one of those life
(41:10):
altering voices, but you can also see her discology there and
get her songs and social media channels.
You can follow that Lady online.Stalk her like everybody else
does. She's popular, and if you want
to be popular too, you'll you'llyou'll stalk.
Her too, all the cool kids like.Mary, all the cool kids like her
(41:31):
Mary I have. Just ask her nephew.
I have one more fun question I want to leave you with.
What's one lyric that struck you, that has stuck with you,
that has really stood the test of time?
It could be yours, it could be somebody else's.
(41:51):
Well, recently I've been quotingBruce Springsteen, the promised
Land. Poor man want to be rich, Rich
man want to be king. King ain't satisfied till he
rules everything. It's that insatiability that
explains so much that I also have to battle.
(42:13):
And it's just so concise. The Boss has so many lyrics that
are credible, but that one there, it seems right for the
times we live in that like, why do billionaires need to do
whatever that is? It's like more, please, more.
And oh man, pride always comes before the fall.
(42:34):
I think there's a warning in what Bruce is singing and I
just, I need, need to heed that for myself.
Yeah. Well, before we sign off, was
there anything that that we didn't necessarily touched on
that you thought would be important we should?
Yeah, you know, I didn't get to the word alchemy, and I always
love to put that word out there.Why write in such a way that
(42:55):
you're down there digging aroundin the dirt of, of, of your
humanity? Because it's healing.
Because it takes this thing and turns it into something else.
It's alchemy. It's alchemizing.
It's transformative. You do it to move things
forward. You do it to heal.
(43:16):
You do it to let go of of of of of one understanding and have a
larger understanding that has less anger and less shame and
less hurt. It's alchemy.
That's the point of this is to is to transform.
(43:37):
I love that. Let's see your book one more
time. Mary saved by a song?
What kind? Of guitar is that.
That's a 1950s SJ Gibson. And that strap was given to me
by B Spears, who for many, many years played bass with Willie
Nelson. Oh, he said.
You're a, you're a star kid. I'm going to get you a strap.
You're a star. And so that's the strap I'm
(43:58):
going to use forever. I love you, Mary.
Love y'all, thank you for doing this with me, thanks for having.
Me on. Thanks for being here.
Thanks. It's Grace.
Thank you so much for visiting us today.
And Alphas, please stick around for for some scuttlebutt after
the break. Welcome back, Alphas.
We're keeping things short and sweet on the countdown, so
there's no scuttlebutt today, but thanks for taking the trip
(44:20):
down memory lane with us. We really hope you guys enjoyed
the episode. On behalf of the entire Tal
Podcast team, we hope you're enjoying time with your loved
ones during the holiday season. If you miss us during the
holidays, which I know you are, you can always subscribe to our
podcast, our newsletter, or sendus guests and mail
recommendations at legion.org. Back slash Tal Salon.
(44:43):
Salon.
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