October 16, 2025 • 35 mins
The Global War on Terrorism Memorial will reflect the voices, unique experiences and war stories of those who served in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.
Marine Corps combat veteran Elliot Ackerman, the co-chairman of the Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation’s Design Advisory Council, is helping to collect the voices that will be used to represent all those who served, sacrificed and contributed to the GWOT.
He is the author of a half-dozen books, including “The Fifth Act: America’s End in Afghanistan.” This episode, hosted by Army veteran Jennifer Ballou, is the third in the initial six-part special series produced by The American Legion. It focuses on the GWOT memorial in Washington, D.C., that will serve as a special place of honor and remembrance.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:19):
Hello and welcome to the Global War on Terrorism Memorial
podcast hosted by the American Legion.
I'm your host, Jennifer Ballou, and it's my honor to welcome you
home Today we are joined by Elliott Ackerman.
Elliott is the New York Times bestselling author of the novels
20542034, Red Dress in Black andWhite, Waiting for Eden, Dark at
(00:45):
the Crossing, and Green on Blue,as well as the memoirs The Fifth
Act, America's End in Afghanistan, and Places and
Names on War, Revolution and Returning.
His books have been nominated for the National Book Award, the
Andrew Carnegie Medal in both fiction and Non fiction, and the
(01:07):
Dayton Library Peace Prize, among others.
He is a contributing writer at The Atlantic, a senior fellow at
Yale's Jackson School of Global Affairs, and a veteran of the
Marine Corps and CIA Special Operations, having served 5
tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan where he received
(01:30):
the Silver Star, the Bronze Starfor Valor, and the Purple Heart.
Elliot is also the Co Chair of the Global War on Terrorism
Memorial Foundation's Design Advisory Council, which we will
certainly talk more about. He divides his time between New
York City and Washington, DC Elliot Ackerman, welcome home.
(01:54):
Thanks for having me Chad, and thank you for reading that long
bio for the next time. Sorry about that.
I've been looking forward to this conversation for for quite
some time, so thank you so much for being here.
You know, I was reflecting on when we first met and I
remember, I think it was about two years ago or so, but you
(02:17):
graciously hosted myself, Rod, and a few others at your home
for dinner. Do you remember that evening?
Yeah, of course. That was a fun.
That was a funny event. You were such a gracious host,
and I remember sitting at the table listening to you and Alex
Hernandez, another one of our Design Advisory Council members,
(02:38):
talk about war stories and just thinking like, wow, just wow.
What do you remember about that night?
Well, I remember, you know, Rod convening all of us and I think
he has swapping stories and, youknow, a sense that this was like
a nice little weigh station on what has been a a long and
(03:02):
rewarding journey trying to, youknow, get everybody included and
involved in building this memorial.
So I remember being just sort ofa nice a nice check in and I'd
heard about you from Rod for fora long time as well.
So I was excited to meet you. But you know, it's a real honor
(03:23):
to be to begin to participate inthe building of this world, to
meet all of the people who are coming together to do it.
And that just sort of keeps growing and growing.
So I just sort of when I think about that night, I think about
that as sort of being one of those nice touchstone nights in
this process. Absolutely.
And, and we'll certainly talk about that process in a little
(03:44):
bit, But before we do, I'm wondering if you would be
willing to share with our listeners why you decided to
become a Marine. Oh geez.
I like to joke that that I studied, I studied, I studied
English and history in school. And there's only two things you
(04:05):
can do with that. You can become an English or
history teacher or you can become a Marine Corps infantry
officer. So I did the latter.
But you know, in All in all seriousness, I think, you know,
I grew up abroad a little bit. So I think kind of being an
American outside of America and that being a formative
experience for me gave me kind of a little bit of remove from
the country and really made me want to give back.
(04:27):
Kind of give me some perspectivethat, you know, America is a
pretty special place. So that was a part of it.
I think, you know, I wanted I was a Marine officer and the
idea of having a lot of responsibility at a young age
and, you know, really matter, you know, mattering, you know,
that if I was good at my job or bad at my job would really
matter to the people I was working with.
(04:47):
That that appealed to me. And I couldn't think of anywhere
else where, you know, 22 years old, they put you in charge 45
people and, you know, the MarineCorps, like the Army or like any
of the services, they really they give you a lot of
responsibility young and that appealed to me.
And I think the last thing was sort of I was this like, I
always, you know, I was like thekid who never stopped playing
with his GI Joes. Like I always had this
(05:07):
fascination for all things military.
And so when you combine those three, it led me into the Marine
Corps. But I came in, so I did, I did
ROTC and, and started that in like the late 90s.
And so in the kind of the, the time that I was in my ROTC
training, we went from a, you know, a peacetime America to a
(05:31):
wartime America because 911 happened.
And so that that very much changed just the the tone of of
what my service and, you know, and all of us who are in the,
you know, war on terrorism generation, what our service
would mean going out for the next couple of decades.
Yeah. As you were thinking about that,
when you said that you you did ROTC in college, it just, it
(05:54):
kind of made me think about, youknow, how different or maybe not
it was back then to join the military versus now.
And I'm wondering, Elliot, like,what would you say to a young
person who is considering joining one of the military
(06:15):
branches? Sure.
Well, I'm very fortunate. I have a lot of young people in
my life, so I actually get to have this conversation quite a
bit. I mean, you know, the first one
of the things I often find myself saying is, you know,
really be honest with yourself about, you know, sort of, you
know, your motives for why you want to serve.
And not that there's one set that's a correct set motive and
(06:38):
one that is a incorrect motive. But it's important to understand
that, to understand sort of, youknow, what is driving this
decision? You know, why am I attracted to
this? I think that's really important
to just be self aware about that, you know, and then to have
sort of clear expectations of sort of, you know, what do I,
you know, what do I think this is going to be like?
And then to adjust those expectations along the way, you
(07:01):
know, my expectations, for better or worse were very, very
different. You know, I sort of being candid
here. I was coming into the Marine
Corps sort of 1999 two thousand and nothing really big.
It happened in sort of America sort of for a while.
And so I think, you know, like like probably any, you know,
(07:21):
wannabe infantry officer, I verymuch was sort of hoping to see
some type of action if I serve. But my sense of that was like,
you know, wouldn't it be amazing?
It's like I got to go out and, you know, evacuate an embassy
somewhere or do a, you know, humanitarian aid mission
somewhere, you know, something that was real.
And then sort of, you know, my, at the beginning of my senior
(07:42):
year of college, 911 happened. And and then suddenly everything
became very real. And within a period of about
two, you know, two years, it went from, you know, a peacetime
Marine Corps to really a full onwartime Marine Corps.
And that was a, an expectation shift just in that, you know,
sort of I was like, oh, well, maybe I'll evacuate an embassy
(08:02):
to, you know, you're going to be, you know, leading a rifle
platoon and sort of high intensity urban combat.
And that is going to be your military experience.
So I think for what I said, a young person is, you know, you,
you know, understand who you are, you know, sort of, you
know, have a sense of what your expectations are.
That's healthy, you know, but then also know that that your
expectations, they can, they canchange in a second.
(08:24):
And you always need to be prepared for that.
Right. Yeah.
Speaking of just things changing, like I mentioned at
the beginning when I read a little bit of your bio, you
transitioned from the Marine Corps to the CIA and I'm curious
if you would talk about that transition.
And then I'm going to ask you about the transition and how it
(08:48):
was different from the CIA to being a civilian or a veteran.
Sure. I mean, I was at the, I was at
the CIA for a relatively, you know, short period of time and I
sort of viewed that, you know, Iwas a Marine infantry officer,
then I was a Marine special operations officer and, and, and
the Raiders. And then what I did at CIA was
(09:09):
very similar work, you know, in special operations there and,
you know, and working with indigenous units.
And so the work was actually was, was, was pretty similar, I
mean, different in a lot of ways, but there was quite a bit
of overlap. So that wasn't, didn't feel like
a huge transition. And, and a number of the guys I
sort of worked with at the agency were guys I'd known to
(09:30):
the Marines who transitioned over there as well.
The one thing I will say that was a real, and it started kind
of my, my having to change my mindset on a few things was I
remember very early working on the agency.
I, I went into the office of ourdeputy Chief of operations who
sort of would keep the schedule of where everyone was deploying
and when. And he sort of told me, well,
(09:51):
Elliot, this is where you're going to go.
This is where we have you slatedon the schedule.
And they looked at me and he said, are you all right with
that? Does that work for you?
And I sort of said, excuse me, He was like, does that work for
you? Like, you know, you got family
or this is does that work for you?
And I was like, yeah, I guess itdoes.
I mean, you know, and, and it was only, I mean, you know, the
units I worked with, see, I mean, they were very, you know,
they're paramilitary units and everyone there was a military
(10:13):
guy. But it was it was this one
little wake up call where I was like, suddenly I went from being
a, you know, the conversation as, you know, you always have in
the military, you're a minority shareholder in your own destiny,
right? You know, you have 49% of the
say. But the big, you know, the
Marine Corps always had 51% to say for me.
And I was just this little tweakwhere I was like, no, you
actually have 51% of the say. Now, if you say this doesn't
(10:36):
work for you, I mean, you know, it doesn't help.
And you know, you know, you wantto, you know, always do what you
can, but they'll say, OK, well, you're, you're a civilian now.
And so it doesn't have to work for you.
And that was a little bit, I think of a transition for me.
Understand ending that, that that, you know, that that shift
had occurred, that I had a sort of a sense of agency over my own
life as a civilian now that whenI was in the military, I didn't
(11:00):
have. And, and, and candidly,
sometimes that can be daunting because it forces you to ask the
question like, wait, am I OK with this?
Like, is this what I is actuallywhat I want?
And that I mean, and not only heightened, you know, when I
left government service altogether.
Right. And so how was your transition
(11:21):
different when you left government service altogether?
The analogy generally people often and actually young people
often ask me about this because I was, you know, I was very
fortunate. I got to work with some like
fantastic people when I was in the military and I got to do
some what I think are pretty, pretty cool things.
And sometimes, sometimes young people ask me like, why did you
wow, why did you leave? Like it's something what you're
(11:41):
doing was really cool. And I was like, it was really
cool and I was working with great people.
But the analogy I kind of come to is like that when I was, you
know, that literally being sort of an infantry officer, being in
the military, it was kind of almost like being a professional
athlete. And I think some of us might
feel that way in our careers. Like there's there are some
parallels of being a professional athlete.
So like when I was in the Marineinfantry, you know, let's say
(12:03):
it's football, right? That was like playing a high
school football, right? Like you're all out there.
It's like love of the game, particularly if you're a Marine,
like your equipment's often not that great.
You know, your team's a little scrappy.
Some guys are super talented, some of that maybe not as
talented, they ride the bench, but more.
But you know, you make it work and you know, and you're and
there's a real purity to it. Then when I went to the Raiders,
(12:24):
it was like playing college ball.
You know, you had like everyone on that team was pretty good and
was really there for a reason. You know, you had much nicer
gear. Maybe you had like a little Nike
swish on your jersey and you know, and every now and again,
like, you know, your games mighteven wind up on TV.
And then I was at the agency, you know, sort of very high end
unit. I mean, I was like being in the
NFL, like I would look down my office.
(12:46):
The other guys I worked with them, you know, they all had
every, I knew who all they all were.
They all had reputations. There was a real All Star team.
You had the best equipment, all of the top resources and you
were going up against the toughest teams out there.
You know, the targets who went out after were quite frequently,
you know, very high end. But at the end of that, you're
you're still playing football, you know, like it is still kind
(13:07):
of the same game, more or less. And so, you know, you then ask
yourself a question like, well, you know, like, do I want to
play football for my whole life or coach football?
Like, do I want to be inside football?
And a lot of people who I, you know, love dearly, great mentors
of mine, you know, who are stillmentors of mine.
Like their question, their answer to that question has been
an unequivocal yes. And they have made huge
(13:28):
contributions to the realm of national security over the
years. For me, when I was sort of in my
early 30s, I kind of land, I waslike, you know, I, I think that
I don't think my answer is yes. Like they're just really a lot
of other things I want to do. As much as I have loved this
doing this, like I know that I need to leave now because if I
don't, the longer I stay, the more difficult it's going to be
(13:49):
for me to kind of go out and do some of these other things.
And that was a big jump for me. And was and candidly, you know,
a very disorienting, a little bit scary.
You know, you are certainly given a very clear sense of
yourself, a very clear identity when you're in the Marine Corps
or in in the service, you know, and you know, and you have a
very strong, at least I did. That's a very strong sense of
(14:11):
community. And so I sort of left to go work
on a project that's sort of an entrepreneurial political
project. I didn't totally know what was
on the other side of that. All I knew was I didn't want to,
you know, I didn't want to do this.
Maybe that's the only thing thatI did with my entire life.
And I had, and I had other interests.
So I went out and I, you know, started this other job and, and
(14:34):
it was great, but I knew it was sort of annoying to last for a
couple of years. And then on the side, I kind of
quietly was, you know, trying towrite a book.
And I thought I would only writeone book.
And that sort of took over my life.
That's amazing. And gosh, I feel like we need a
whole other episode to talk about that particular like,
(14:55):
chapter of your life. But if I may, I kind of want to
shift to your role as the DesignAdvisory Council Co chair for
the memorial, the Global War on Terrorism memorial.
I'm wondering just again, for the listeners who might not know
(15:15):
what that means, like what does it mean to you?
Like what is the role of the DACCo chair?
This memorial is, you know, a collection of viewpoints and
voices and perspectives. And it's only going to be, you
know, as I think as as good, as inclusive as it is, you know, I
(15:37):
mean, we don't want to miss anyone.
We don't want to miss any type of perspective that can add to
the value of, of, of what this place is going to be.
So I view sort of my role in thework I've done with you is to,
you know, it's to corral those voices, to look at those
perspectives, to have our perspectives sort of, you know,
(15:57):
challenged. And, you know, and then once
that's been aired to sort of help kind of help hone all of
those viewpoints into a coherentdesign that is saying something
and can be a place that, you know, that people go to and, and
a place that, you know, a place where people can find meaning
(16:17):
for what their experience is. Because every person's
experience, you know, I just gave you sort of a version of my
experience, just one person's experience.
Everybody has been so, so different.
So how do you make a space that's going to resonate with
all of those, all that diversityof experience?
Yeah, that's very well said. So what does it mean to you?
(16:38):
Like, if you take a step back and you think about this role
that you're playing in creating a piece of American history,
what does it mean to you? Well, memorials, you know, they,
they, they tell a story. And again, they're places where
we go to find meaning, but everyone's, you know, meeting is
going to be a little bit different.
(16:58):
So I think often they're, you know, they memorial will have
to, it will say something, you know, in the, the way it's
constructed, the way it looks, and it will say, you know, it
will say one thing and it will say sort of a whole myriad of
things. But we, you know, it's, it's
trying to take in the design andin the process of listening and
including people trying to take all of those voices and put them
(17:21):
into one coherent statement, youknow, and that's obviously a
physical statement. It's an artistic statement that
makes everyone feel as though they're, you know, that that
memorial is a place where they go and they see themselves and
they see their experience reflected in, you know, and
that's in the space on the ground.
(17:42):
I mean, that's a, you know, and that's a challenge, but it's
also, it's a process. It's not just sitting around and
going in a corner and, you know,looking at a bunch of sketches
and saying, oh, we think this one is good.
It's getting out there and listening to people and having
people talk about when they imagine in a memorial what that
means to them. And once you've gone through
(18:02):
that process, then then you know, then that'll gives you the
ability to sort of look at the options out there and find one
that that will resonate, you know, to as many people as
possible. Absolutely.
So you've shared a little bit with us about you and your
background and I'm sure you havemany different experiences that
(18:24):
have shaped not only who you aretoday, but that have influenced
your voice as the Co chair of the design Advisory Council.
And I'm wondering if like there's one story or example
that maybe you didn't recognize would impact this role today.
(18:50):
But as you look back, you're like, wow, that that probably
happened because I was eventually going to be here.
Well, you know, the way I got involved with this, you know,
with the the War on Terrorism War Foundation initially, I
actually feel is less as a veteran and was more as a
(19:13):
writer, you know, I knew. So, you know, I write books
special as a journalist. I knew that the legislation was
going through Congress to make this memorial.
And I thought I thought it was afascinating prospect because you
are, you know, we now are creating a memorial.
And one of the challenges was, you know, the war on terrorism
(19:34):
hasn't hasn't ended. So how do you create a memorial
to a war that hasn't ended? And then I thought it was the
idea. It was very interesting that,
you know, war, the act of war isone that we as human beings are
perpetually engaged in. So in some ways making a
memorial to a never ending war is almost like making a memorial
to war itself. There's a really interesting
(19:56):
challenge just philosophically. So if I wanted to write about it
and, and the idea I came up with, I said, well, you know,
one of the things that had fascinated me was that in small
communities all over America, people had just gone ahead and
made their own memorials to the war on terrorism within their
communities. And there's a long and rich
tradition of that. And then you go through small
town America, you'll see everywhere there's memorials,
(20:18):
war memorials. It's not just in Washington, DC.
So I. I put a story, you know, pitch
for a story together to Smithsonian magazine and said,
you know, I'm going to go. And a friend of mine who's a
photographer, he's actually, he's a great finance
photographer. He's Eugene Foote.
He's the son of the Civil War historian Shelby Foote.
And I said Eugene and I, so he'svery much steeped in the war
(20:40):
memorials. I said, why don't we go?
And we're going to drive around the US and we're going to go to
all these small town memorials and just see what they look
like. You know, maybe this is a first
draft of what a true National Memorial would be.
And so we went from, I mean, we went from the Northeast to one
of the first War Memorial to thewar on terrorism is actually
(21:00):
outside the North Church in Boston, which is where Paul
Revere did, as you know, one if I see two or by land, actually,
I might be reversing that shows my bad American history.
But anyways, all the way down toall the way down to Mobile, AL
where there is a memorial and everywhere in between.
And in doing that again, it's like it's it's the sort of the
role of the design advisory committee.
You could see some of these memorials are very conceptual
(21:24):
and beautiful. One was sort of dog tags
arranged as wind chimes that were very haunting, you know,
Another was sort of, you know, marble stone obelisk to look
like the twin tie. And these are all small and
communities, you know, and some were just, you know, slabs and
granite with the names of the service members who died from
that town. And everyone had a story.
(21:44):
And we talked to the people in the towns who'd built those
memorials and why they've been built.
And we talked to veterans in thetown who are from there.
So, you know, what is this memorial in your town square
mean to you? And along the way, you know, I
obviously started, you know, I talked to Rod Rodriguez about,
you know, what was going on withthe Global War on Terrorism
memorial. And how was this shaping up And
realized? As much as each one of these
small town memorials had a storyof how they were being made,
(22:07):
there was, you know, an even larger mosaic of stories as to
how the war on terrorism world was was being undertaken in
Washington, DC And that's sort of how I got involved.
Wow, that's amazing. And so that's a great segue to,
you know, for this memorial for the National Global War on
(22:28):
Terrorism Memorial, it's really important to us that we tell the
entire story and that we honor all of the men and women who
have served and sacrificed in this ongoing war.
And as you mentioned it, it is ongoing.
Why do you think it's so important that we tell the whole
(22:50):
story of the G Watt? Which I think like you, you
know, I, I'm sure you've imagined, I imagine the day when
this memorial is unveiled and people are going to walk down
Constitution Ave. or across the mall or however they decide
they're going to get there and they're going to want to come
see it. And my hope is that every person
(23:12):
who comes and sees it, they see themselves in some part of the
memorial. There's some moment where they
look and they say, Oh my God, I see myself.
This is, you know, this, this little this corner of it is me
or my friend or, you know, however it hits them like that,
you know, and I think to use it,you know, obviously, you know,
(23:32):
we're doing something that's been done before.
But to use an example of that is, you know, the Vietnam
Veterans Memorial. You know, one of the things
that's so powerful about that memorial is when you step up to
the Black Wall, that's, you know, pause so polished.
What you see when you look at the names is your own reflection
looking back at you. Now, you know, I don't think
we're going to wind up with the replica of the Vietnam Veterans
(23:53):
Memorial. But metaphorically speaking,
somewhere in this process, you know, there should be the place
where everyone looks and they see themselves or they see a
friend reflected back to them. You know, then I think the
memorial will have been successful.
And so since it's ongoing, as we've mentioned a few times, why
now? Like why is it so important that
(24:13):
we build this memorial now? Well, first and foremost, to
state the obvious so that the sothat there can be that moment
where the people who experiencedthe war can come and be at the
memorial because the memorial ultimately is a, you know, it's
a place of healing. It's a place to come and commune
with, you know, the memories of friends.
It's a place to come and for people to learn, you know,
(24:36):
family members, children, you know, to connect us to, you
know, to this past and the, you know, I know you're still only,
you know, 27 years old, Jim, guys like me who are getting
old, you know, we're getting old.
So you know, when you say, you know, we, we, we have to
recognize too, that from the perspective of our children, I
have children and this is all history.
This is history to them. So this is the right time.
(24:58):
You know, it's not the right time.
It's the absolute the time it has to happen.
It has to happen right now. So that's why we're doing it.
Yeah, yeah. And like you said, it's a place
that people can go and can gather for many different
reasons. And as we've continued to talk
about that internally and and have heard that from others,
(25:22):
we've started to refer to as nowthe future site, but ultimately
the memorial as home. This will be our home.
We know that this memorial will save lives.
And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that.
I think, you know, home is a place where you know, where you
(25:43):
can feel safe or you can feel like, you know, you're seeing in
your experiences are seeing good, bad or ugly.
And I think for anyone who has been through these wars, it's
been tough coming home. And one of the things that's
been tough is the wars have goneon so long that there has never
been a moment where it's just over.
(26:05):
So it's time to come home. So for so many of us, you know,
the time the war ended was when we decided it ended for us.
And so that means each one of ushad to sort of make a separate
peace. We had to declare the war's
over. I'm declaring a separate peace
for myself. And you know, some peace, you
know, some, some pieces that we make with ourselves are more
enduring than others. So it's a place where you can
(26:27):
come and have peace, you know, have and hopefully have some,
some of the closure that that people need.
Because I'm a guy who likes books, I'll make a literary
reference here. You know, it's often been said
like there are there are only two war stories All and all war
stories are derivative of these two original war stories.
(26:49):
And they are Homer's Iliad and his Odyssey.
And the Iliad is the story of Achilles and the Greeks going to
war. And the Odyssey is the story of
returning from war. So there's only two stories, the
going to war and the returning. And so, you know, where do you
return to? You return to home.
(27:09):
So I think, I hope there's closure and I hope it's the sort
of final, the final chapter of this story.
Yeah, yeah. Gosh.
So for those who I mean, you andI both know that when you come
home, you you just don't come home the same at at varying
levels or degrees. For those people who haven't
(27:34):
found their home, but they haven't found that end, or
perhaps they're struggling with if their service in the global
war on terrorism mattered, what,what would you say to those
people? I think if you come home in
stages, you know, and you never know when those moments are
(27:57):
going to be when you actually finally feel like you're home.
And sometimes it can be a word that you have with someone.
I mean, sometimes it can be, I have children.
Sometimes it can be your children telling you something
about how they view that experience.
But it's just to, you know, keeptrying, like keep trying to come
home. And, you know, and, and
ultimately, too, we bring each other home like this is a
community of, of veterans. So yes, our families bring us
(28:20):
home and welcome us back. But we're bringing us, we're
bringing each other home. And this effort is an effort, I
think by all of us, by everyone who's been involved in this
memorial, whether they're, you know, a member of the Divide
Design Advisory Council. Are there anyone who, you know,
you know, picked up the surveys we sent down nationwide, you
know, you know, and not just those who wore the uniforms, but
(28:42):
the families of those who wore the uniforms or, or, you know,
civilians, you know, who want tosay what it meant for the
country. Like, you know, we bring each
other home. So.
So reach out, you know, get involved.
Or when this is done, just come to Washington and take a quiet
walk. I mean, you know, that can that
(29:02):
can be if you have to be open tothose moments so you can come
home. Yeah, absolutely.
You do have to be open to them. As you know, the foundation has
four tenants, which are Honor, Heal, Empower and Unite.
And I feel like indirectly, we've spoken about how the
(29:22):
memorial will honor all those who have served and sacrificed
in the Jiwat. We've talked about how it could
potentially provide healing. We've talked about uniting.
You know, this is home. I'm wondering what you might say
about the tenant of empower. Like, how do you see this
(29:45):
memorial empowering not only those who have played a part in
the G Wat, but two Americans at large?
I think 1, I mean, in many ways is empowering.
I think the most obvious one is if you want, you know, if a
person wants to go talk about, you know, their experience, you
(30:06):
know, in the War on Terror in Iraq, Afghanistan, I mean this,
this gives you a place that you can, that you can go, I mean,
take your kids, you know, walk through the memorial.
So I think it empowers in that way.
I think it opens up a conversation that people who
serve can have, you know, with with civilians who who didn't
(30:27):
serve. And I think that is empowering
often too, it's very difficult to know the entry point to go
back and kind of think about those experiences and allow
yourself to kind of come home. Then it can be tough for people
to find the entry point. And I've seen that the end.
You know, I write books, like often books can start a
conversation that is really helpful and empowers people.
(30:54):
And, you know, I myself have theexperience where, you know, I've
said to folks, you know, or any piece of art, you know, like,
like I fought in Fallujah, people sometimes ask me, what
was that like? And I've actually been like, you
know, what if you, if you watch Full Metal Jacket, the
second-half of Full Metal Jacket, that's what that was
like. And it actually empowers me to
be able to say that because I can point to something, you
(31:14):
know, and maybe, you know, maybewith the war on terrorism or
else someone can see, you know, someone can say like, I don't
have the words to say what this all was to me, but I can bring
you here. And, you know, we can look at
the memorial together. And that is empowering.
So it's a, you know, it gives people a tool.
And I think when you have a toolat your disposal, you know it
gives you. Power that is empowering.
(31:35):
You referenced dedication day earlier in our conversation,
which leads me to believe you'veyou've thought about it before.
I'm wondering what you if you have hope or what you hope to
feel or experience the first time that you visit our
(31:57):
memorial. Well, I think because I, like
you, have been so involved in the process.
What I, what I hope is to, is tosee it resonating with people
that, you know, that people are moved by it, that they, that
they see it and it unlocks something for them.
And that to me would be the mostimportant thing.
(32:19):
So I guess I'm not particularly fixed on what my own reaction
would be to it. I think I have a fix on, you
know, what I hope others will take away from it.
I hope people feel something. I hope it allows them to, to
feel something, to have a conversation, you know, and
then, you know, and maybe if there's something difficult
they're holding on to, to let itgo, you know, to let it go a
little bit. So, you know, that's my, that's
(32:42):
my hope and my hope, you know, on that day as to maybe see the
glimmers of that. But again, this isn't about it.
This one, obviously this one more, it's not about a day.
It's about, you know, it's aboutall the things that it's going
to do for, for years afterwards.And that's, you know, that's,
that's the promise. And that's why, you know, we're
working so hard on this. Absolutely, Elliot.
(33:05):
It's always such a pleasure spending time with you and
talking with you as I listen to you each and every time.
I'm like, man, he's saying exactly what I wanted to say,
but I just couldn't find the lyrics of you.
I guess it's yeah, it's pretty amazing each and every time.
(33:25):
My final question is just if there's anything else that you
want to add about your experience as the Design
Advisory Co Chair or just anything that we talked about
today, final words? I would just encourage, you
know, anyone listening or who, who is interested is, you know,
(33:47):
this is this is your memorial. So you know, get involved and
understand that this journey isn't over.
It might never be over. But the memorial I think too
will be an important way stationand, and it's not just something
for vets, it's something for ourkids, it's for our families.
(34:09):
This isn't something some small group of veterans is doing for
themselves. This is something we're trying
to do for everyone because the war affected everyone and still
effects everyone. So.
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Elliot,
for spending your time with us today.
I look forward to speaking with you again soon.
(34:30):
Always Thanks, Jen. Thanks, Elliot.
Welcome Home is produced by Jennifer Blum, Holly Soria and
me. Jennifer Blue, our operations
manager, is Henry Howard. Art for Welcome Home is by
Minerva Consulting. Our theme, A Place Like Home is
(34:50):
by Bergenson Lunberg via Epidemic.
Sound mixing and editing is by Jennifer Blum.
Thank you to Tal Podcast and theAmerican Legion for their
collaboration on this inaugural series.
You can find their episodes, guests, and more at legion.org
slash Tal. You can find out more about the
(35:13):
Global War on Terrorism MemorialFoundation, get updates on the
National War Memorial, and learnhow you can get involved by
following us on your favorite social media platforms or by
visiting GWOT Memorial foundation.org.
Hello and welcome to the Global War on Terrorism Memorial
podcast hosted by the American Legion.
I'm your host, Jennifer Ballou, and it's my honor to welcome you
home Today we are joined by Elliott Ackerman.
Elliott is the New York Times bestselling author of the novels
20542034, Red Dress in Black andWhite, Waiting for Eden, Dark at
(00:45):
the Crossing, and Green on Blue,as well as the memoirs The Fifth
Act, America's End in Afghanistan, and Places and
Names on War, Revolution and Returning.
His books have been nominated for the National Book Award, the
Andrew Carnegie Medal in both fiction and Non fiction, and the
(01:07):
Dayton Library Peace Prize, among others.
He is a contributing writer at The Atlantic, a senior fellow at
Yale's Jackson School of Global Affairs, and a veteran of the
Marine Corps and CIA Special Operations, having served 5
tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan where he received
(01:30):
the Silver Star, the Bronze Starfor Valor, and the Purple Heart.
Elliot is also the Co Chair of the Global War on Terrorism
Memorial Foundation's Design Advisory Council, which we will
certainly talk more about. He divides his time between New
York City and Washington, DC Elliot Ackerman, welcome home.
(01:54):
Thanks for having me Chad, and thank you for reading that long
bio for the next time. Sorry about that.
I've been looking forward to this conversation for for quite
some time, so thank you so much for being here.
You know, I was reflecting on when we first met and I
remember, I think it was about two years ago or so, but you
(02:17):
graciously hosted myself, Rod, and a few others at your home
for dinner. Do you remember that evening?
Yeah, of course. That was a fun.
That was a funny event. You were such a gracious host,
and I remember sitting at the table listening to you and Alex
Hernandez, another one of our Design Advisory Council members,
(02:38):
talk about war stories and just thinking like, wow, just wow.
What do you remember about that night?
Well, I remember, you know, Rod convening all of us and I think
he has swapping stories and, youknow, a sense that this was like
a nice little weigh station on what has been a a long and
(03:02):
rewarding journey trying to, youknow, get everybody included and
involved in building this memorial.
So I remember being just sort ofa nice a nice check in and I'd
heard about you from Rod for fora long time as well.
So I was excited to meet you. But you know, it's a real honor
(03:23):
to be to begin to participate inthe building of this world, to
meet all of the people who are coming together to do it.
And that just sort of keeps growing and growing.
So I just sort of when I think about that night, I think about
that as sort of being one of those nice touchstone nights in
this process. Absolutely.
And, and we'll certainly talk about that process in a little
(03:44):
bit, But before we do, I'm wondering if you would be
willing to share with our listeners why you decided to
become a Marine. Oh geez.
I like to joke that that I studied, I studied, I studied
English and history in school. And there's only two things you
(04:05):
can do with that. You can become an English or
history teacher or you can become a Marine Corps infantry
officer. So I did the latter.
But you know, in All in all seriousness, I think, you know,
I grew up abroad a little bit. So I think kind of being an
American outside of America and that being a formative
experience for me gave me kind of a little bit of remove from
the country and really made me want to give back.
(04:27):
Kind of give me some perspectivethat, you know, America is a
pretty special place. So that was a part of it.
I think, you know, I wanted I was a Marine officer and the
idea of having a lot of responsibility at a young age
and, you know, really matter, you know, mattering, you know,
that if I was good at my job or bad at my job would really
matter to the people I was working with.
(04:47):
That that appealed to me. And I couldn't think of anywhere
else where, you know, 22 years old, they put you in charge 45
people and, you know, the MarineCorps, like the Army or like any
of the services, they really they give you a lot of
responsibility young and that appealed to me.
And I think the last thing was sort of I was this like, I
always, you know, I was like thekid who never stopped playing
with his GI Joes. Like I always had this
(05:07):
fascination for all things military.
And so when you combine those three, it led me into the Marine
Corps. But I came in, so I did, I did
ROTC and, and started that in like the late 90s.
And so in the kind of the, the time that I was in my ROTC
training, we went from a, you know, a peacetime America to a
(05:31):
wartime America because 911 happened.
And so that that very much changed just the the tone of of
what my service and, you know, and all of us who are in the,
you know, war on terrorism generation, what our service
would mean going out for the next couple of decades.
Yeah. As you were thinking about that,
when you said that you you did ROTC in college, it just, it
(05:54):
kind of made me think about, youknow, how different or maybe not
it was back then to join the military versus now.
And I'm wondering, Elliot, like,what would you say to a young
person who is considering joining one of the military
(06:15):
branches? Sure.
Well, I'm very fortunate. I have a lot of young people in
my life, so I actually get to have this conversation quite a
bit. I mean, you know, the first one
of the things I often find myself saying is, you know,
really be honest with yourself about, you know, sort of, you
know, your motives for why you want to serve.
And not that there's one set that's a correct set motive and
(06:38):
one that is a incorrect motive. But it's important to understand
that, to understand sort of, youknow, what is driving this
decision? You know, why am I attracted to
this? I think that's really important
to just be self aware about that, you know, and then to have
sort of clear expectations of sort of, you know, what do I,
you know, what do I think this is going to be like?
And then to adjust those expectations along the way, you
(07:01):
know, my expectations, for better or worse were very, very
different. You know, I sort of being candid
here. I was coming into the Marine
Corps sort of 1999 two thousand and nothing really big.
It happened in sort of America sort of for a while.
And so I think, you know, like like probably any, you know,
(07:21):
wannabe infantry officer, I verymuch was sort of hoping to see
some type of action if I serve. But my sense of that was like,
you know, wouldn't it be amazing?
It's like I got to go out and, you know, evacuate an embassy
somewhere or do a, you know, humanitarian aid mission
somewhere, you know, something that was real.
And then sort of, you know, my, at the beginning of my senior
(07:42):
year of college, 911 happened. And and then suddenly everything
became very real. And within a period of about
two, you know, two years, it went from, you know, a peacetime
Marine Corps to really a full onwartime Marine Corps.
And that was a, an expectation shift just in that, you know,
sort of I was like, oh, well, maybe I'll evacuate an embassy
(08:02):
to, you know, you're going to be, you know, leading a rifle
platoon and sort of high intensity urban combat.
And that is going to be your military experience.
So I think for what I said, a young person is, you know, you,
you know, understand who you are, you know, sort of, you
know, have a sense of what your expectations are.
That's healthy, you know, but then also know that that your
expectations, they can, they canchange in a second.
(08:24):
And you always need to be prepared for that.
Right. Yeah.
Speaking of just things changing, like I mentioned at
the beginning when I read a little bit of your bio, you
transitioned from the Marine Corps to the CIA and I'm curious
if you would talk about that transition.
And then I'm going to ask you about the transition and how it
(08:48):
was different from the CIA to being a civilian or a veteran.
Sure. I mean, I was at the, I was at
the CIA for a relatively, you know, short period of time and I
sort of viewed that, you know, Iwas a Marine infantry officer,
then I was a Marine special operations officer and, and, and
the Raiders. And then what I did at CIA was
(09:09):
very similar work, you know, in special operations there and,
you know, and working with indigenous units.
And so the work was actually was, was, was pretty similar, I
mean, different in a lot of ways, but there was quite a bit
of overlap. So that wasn't, didn't feel like
a huge transition. And, and a number of the guys I
sort of worked with at the agency were guys I'd known to
(09:30):
the Marines who transitioned over there as well.
The one thing I will say that was a real, and it started kind
of my, my having to change my mindset on a few things was I
remember very early working on the agency.
I, I went into the office of ourdeputy Chief of operations who
sort of would keep the schedule of where everyone was deploying
and when. And he sort of told me, well,
(09:51):
Elliot, this is where you're going to go.
This is where we have you slatedon the schedule.
And they looked at me and he said, are you all right with
that? Does that work for you?
And I sort of said, excuse me, He was like, does that work for
you? Like, you know, you got family
or this is does that work for you?
And I was like, yeah, I guess itdoes.
I mean, you know, and, and it was only, I mean, you know, the
units I worked with, see, I mean, they were very, you know,
they're paramilitary units and everyone there was a military
(10:13):
guy. But it was it was this one
little wake up call where I was like, suddenly I went from being
a, you know, the conversation as, you know, you always have in
the military, you're a minority shareholder in your own destiny,
right? You know, you have 49% of the
say. But the big, you know, the
Marine Corps always had 51% to say for me.
And I was just this little tweakwhere I was like, no, you
actually have 51% of the say. Now, if you say this doesn't
(10:36):
work for you, I mean, you know, it doesn't help.
And you know, you know, you wantto, you know, always do what you
can, but they'll say, OK, well, you're, you're a civilian now.
And so it doesn't have to work for you.
And that was a little bit, I think of a transition for me.
Understand ending that, that that, you know, that that shift
had occurred, that I had a sort of a sense of agency over my own
life as a civilian now that whenI was in the military, I didn't
(11:00):
have. And, and, and candidly,
sometimes that can be daunting because it forces you to ask the
question like, wait, am I OK with this?
Like, is this what I is actuallywhat I want?
And that I mean, and not only heightened, you know, when I
left government service altogether.
Right. And so how was your transition
(11:21):
different when you left government service altogether?
The analogy generally people often and actually young people
often ask me about this because I was, you know, I was very
fortunate. I got to work with some like
fantastic people when I was in the military and I got to do
some what I think are pretty, pretty cool things.
And sometimes, sometimes young people ask me like, why did you
wow, why did you leave? Like it's something what you're
(11:41):
doing was really cool. And I was like, it was really
cool and I was working with great people.
But the analogy I kind of come to is like that when I was, you
know, that literally being sort of an infantry officer, being in
the military, it was kind of almost like being a professional
athlete. And I think some of us might
feel that way in our careers. Like there's there are some
parallels of being a professional athlete.
So like when I was in the Marineinfantry, you know, let's say
(12:03):
it's football, right? That was like playing a high
school football, right? Like you're all out there.
It's like love of the game, particularly if you're a Marine,
like your equipment's often not that great.
You know, your team's a little scrappy.
Some guys are super talented, some of that maybe not as
talented, they ride the bench, but more.
But you know, you make it work and you know, and you're and
there's a real purity to it. Then when I went to the Raiders,
(12:24):
it was like playing college ball.
You know, you had like everyone on that team was pretty good and
was really there for a reason. You know, you had much nicer
gear. Maybe you had like a little Nike
swish on your jersey and you know, and every now and again,
like, you know, your games mighteven wind up on TV.
And then I was at the agency, you know, sort of very high end
unit. I mean, I was like being in the
NFL, like I would look down my office.
(12:46):
The other guys I worked with them, you know, they all had
every, I knew who all they all were.
They all had reputations. There was a real All Star team.
You had the best equipment, all of the top resources and you
were going up against the toughest teams out there.
You know, the targets who went out after were quite frequently,
you know, very high end. But at the end of that, you're
you're still playing football, you know, like it is still kind
(13:07):
of the same game, more or less. And so, you know, you then ask
yourself a question like, well, you know, like, do I want to
play football for my whole life or coach football?
Like, do I want to be inside football?
And a lot of people who I, you know, love dearly, great mentors
of mine, you know, who are stillmentors of mine.
Like their question, their answer to that question has been
an unequivocal yes. And they have made huge
(13:28):
contributions to the realm of national security over the
years. For me, when I was sort of in my
early 30s, I kind of land, I waslike, you know, I, I think that
I don't think my answer is yes. Like they're just really a lot
of other things I want to do. As much as I have loved this
doing this, like I know that I need to leave now because if I
don't, the longer I stay, the more difficult it's going to be
(13:49):
for me to kind of go out and do some of these other things.
And that was a big jump for me. And was and candidly, you know,
a very disorienting, a little bit scary.
You know, you are certainly given a very clear sense of
yourself, a very clear identity when you're in the Marine Corps
or in in the service, you know, and you know, and you have a
very strong, at least I did. That's a very strong sense of
(14:11):
community. And so I sort of left to go work
on a project that's sort of an entrepreneurial political
project. I didn't totally know what was
on the other side of that. All I knew was I didn't want to,
you know, I didn't want to do this.
Maybe that's the only thing thatI did with my entire life.
And I had, and I had other interests.
So I went out and I, you know, started this other job and, and
(14:34):
it was great, but I knew it was sort of annoying to last for a
couple of years. And then on the side, I kind of
quietly was, you know, trying towrite a book.
And I thought I would only writeone book.
And that sort of took over my life.
That's amazing. And gosh, I feel like we need a
whole other episode to talk about that particular like,
(14:55):
chapter of your life. But if I may, I kind of want to
shift to your role as the DesignAdvisory Council Co chair for
the memorial, the Global War on Terrorism memorial.
I'm wondering just again, for the listeners who might not know
(15:15):
what that means, like what does it mean to you?
Like what is the role of the DACCo chair?
This memorial is, you know, a collection of viewpoints and
voices and perspectives. And it's only going to be, you
know, as I think as as good, as inclusive as it is, you know, I
(15:37):
mean, we don't want to miss anyone.
We don't want to miss any type of perspective that can add to
the value of, of, of what this place is going to be.
So I view sort of my role in thework I've done with you is to,
you know, it's to corral those voices, to look at those
perspectives, to have our perspectives sort of, you know,
(15:57):
challenged. And, you know, and then once
that's been aired to sort of help kind of help hone all of
those viewpoints into a coherentdesign that is saying something
and can be a place that, you know, that people go to and, and
a place that, you know, a place where people can find meaning
(16:17):
for what their experience is. Because every person's
experience, you know, I just gave you sort of a version of my
experience, just one person's experience.
Everybody has been so, so different.
So how do you make a space that's going to resonate with
all of those, all that diversityof experience?
Yeah, that's very well said. So what does it mean to you?
(16:38):
Like, if you take a step back and you think about this role
that you're playing in creating a piece of American history,
what does it mean to you? Well, memorials, you know, they,
they, they tell a story. And again, they're places where
we go to find meaning, but everyone's, you know, meeting is
going to be a little bit different.
(16:58):
So I think often they're, you know, they memorial will have
to, it will say something, you know, in the, the way it's
constructed, the way it looks, and it will say, you know, it
will say one thing and it will say sort of a whole myriad of
things. But we, you know, it's, it's
trying to take in the design andin the process of listening and
including people trying to take all of those voices and put them
(17:21):
into one coherent statement, youknow, and that's obviously a
physical statement. It's an artistic statement that
makes everyone feel as though they're, you know, that that
memorial is a place where they go and they see themselves and
they see their experience reflected in, you know, and
that's in the space on the ground.
(17:42):
I mean, that's a, you know, and that's a challenge, but it's
also, it's a process. It's not just sitting around and
going in a corner and, you know,looking at a bunch of sketches
and saying, oh, we think this one is good.
It's getting out there and listening to people and having
people talk about when they imagine in a memorial what that
means to them. And once you've gone through
(18:02):
that process, then then you know, then that'll gives you the
ability to sort of look at the options out there and find one
that that will resonate, you know, to as many people as
possible. Absolutely.
So you've shared a little bit with us about you and your
background and I'm sure you havemany different experiences that
(18:24):
have shaped not only who you aretoday, but that have influenced
your voice as the Co chair of the design Advisory Council.
And I'm wondering if like there's one story or example
that maybe you didn't recognize would impact this role today.
(18:50):
But as you look back, you're like, wow, that that probably
happened because I was eventually going to be here.
Well, you know, the way I got involved with this, you know,
with the the War on Terrorism War Foundation initially, I
actually feel is less as a veteran and was more as a
(19:13):
writer, you know, I knew. So, you know, I write books
special as a journalist. I knew that the legislation was
going through Congress to make this memorial.
And I thought I thought it was afascinating prospect because you
are, you know, we now are creating a memorial.
And one of the challenges was, you know, the war on terrorism
(19:34):
hasn't hasn't ended. So how do you create a memorial
to a war that hasn't ended? And then I thought it was the
idea. It was very interesting that,
you know, war, the act of war isone that we as human beings are
perpetually engaged in. So in some ways making a
memorial to a never ending war is almost like making a memorial
to war itself. There's a really interesting
(19:56):
challenge just philosophically. So if I wanted to write about it
and, and the idea I came up with, I said, well, you know,
one of the things that had fascinated me was that in small
communities all over America, people had just gone ahead and
made their own memorials to the war on terrorism within their
communities. And there's a long and rich
tradition of that. And then you go through small
town America, you'll see everywhere there's memorials,
(20:18):
war memorials. It's not just in Washington, DC.
So I. I put a story, you know, pitch
for a story together to Smithsonian magazine and said,
you know, I'm going to go. And a friend of mine who's a
photographer, he's actually, he's a great finance
photographer. He's Eugene Foote.
He's the son of the Civil War historian Shelby Foote.
And I said Eugene and I, so he'svery much steeped in the war
(20:40):
memorials. I said, why don't we go?
And we're going to drive around the US and we're going to go to
all these small town memorials and just see what they look
like. You know, maybe this is a first
draft of what a true National Memorial would be.
And so we went from, I mean, we went from the Northeast to one
of the first War Memorial to thewar on terrorism is actually
(21:00):
outside the North Church in Boston, which is where Paul
Revere did, as you know, one if I see two or by land, actually,
I might be reversing that shows my bad American history.
But anyways, all the way down toall the way down to Mobile, AL
where there is a memorial and everywhere in between.
And in doing that again, it's like it's it's the sort of the
role of the design advisory committee.
You could see some of these memorials are very conceptual
(21:24):
and beautiful. One was sort of dog tags
arranged as wind chimes that were very haunting, you know,
Another was sort of, you know, marble stone obelisk to look
like the twin tie. And these are all small and
communities, you know, and some were just, you know, slabs and
granite with the names of the service members who died from
that town. And everyone had a story.
(21:44):
And we talked to the people in the towns who'd built those
memorials and why they've been built.
And we talked to veterans in thetown who are from there.
So, you know, what is this memorial in your town square
mean to you? And along the way, you know, I
obviously started, you know, I talked to Rod Rodriguez about,
you know, what was going on withthe Global War on Terrorism
memorial. And how was this shaping up And
realized? As much as each one of these
small town memorials had a storyof how they were being made,
(22:07):
there was, you know, an even larger mosaic of stories as to
how the war on terrorism world was was being undertaken in
Washington, DC And that's sort of how I got involved.
Wow, that's amazing. And so that's a great segue to,
you know, for this memorial for the National Global War on
(22:28):
Terrorism Memorial, it's really important to us that we tell the
entire story and that we honor all of the men and women who
have served and sacrificed in this ongoing war.
And as you mentioned it, it is ongoing.
Why do you think it's so important that we tell the whole
(22:50):
story of the G Watt? Which I think like you, you
know, I, I'm sure you've imagined, I imagine the day when
this memorial is unveiled and people are going to walk down
Constitution Ave. or across the mall or however they decide
they're going to get there and they're going to want to come
see it. And my hope is that every person
(23:12):
who comes and sees it, they see themselves in some part of the
memorial. There's some moment where they
look and they say, Oh my God, I see myself.
This is, you know, this, this little this corner of it is me
or my friend or, you know, however it hits them like that,
you know, and I think to use it,you know, obviously, you know,
(23:32):
we're doing something that's been done before.
But to use an example of that is, you know, the Vietnam
Veterans Memorial. You know, one of the things
that's so powerful about that memorial is when you step up to
the Black Wall, that's, you know, pause so polished.
What you see when you look at the names is your own reflection
looking back at you. Now, you know, I don't think
we're going to wind up with the replica of the Vietnam Veterans
(23:53):
Memorial. But metaphorically speaking,
somewhere in this process, you know, there should be the place
where everyone looks and they see themselves or they see a
friend reflected back to them. You know, then I think the
memorial will have been successful.
And so since it's ongoing, as we've mentioned a few times, why
now? Like why is it so important that
(24:13):
we build this memorial now? Well, first and foremost, to
state the obvious so that the sothat there can be that moment
where the people who experiencedthe war can come and be at the
memorial because the memorial ultimately is a, you know, it's
a place of healing. It's a place to come and commune
with, you know, the memories of friends.
It's a place to come and for people to learn, you know,
(24:36):
family members, children, you know, to connect us to, you
know, to this past and the, you know, I know you're still only,
you know, 27 years old, Jim, guys like me who are getting
old, you know, we're getting old.
So you know, when you say, you know, we, we, we have to
recognize too, that from the perspective of our children, I
have children and this is all history.
This is history to them. So this is the right time.
(24:58):
You know, it's not the right time.
It's the absolute the time it has to happen.
It has to happen right now. So that's why we're doing it.
Yeah, yeah. And like you said, it's a place
that people can go and can gather for many different
reasons. And as we've continued to talk
about that internally and and have heard that from others,
(25:22):
we've started to refer to as nowthe future site, but ultimately
the memorial as home. This will be our home.
We know that this memorial will save lives.
And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that.
I think, you know, home is a place where you know, where you
(25:43):
can feel safe or you can feel like, you know, you're seeing in
your experiences are seeing good, bad or ugly.
And I think for anyone who has been through these wars, it's
been tough coming home. And one of the things that's
been tough is the wars have goneon so long that there has never
been a moment where it's just over.
(26:05):
So it's time to come home. So for so many of us, you know,
the time the war ended was when we decided it ended for us.
And so that means each one of ushad to sort of make a separate
peace. We had to declare the war's
over. I'm declaring a separate peace
for myself. And you know, some peace, you
know, some, some pieces that we make with ourselves are more
enduring than others. So it's a place where you can
(26:27):
come and have peace, you know, have and hopefully have some,
some of the closure that that people need.
Because I'm a guy who likes books, I'll make a literary
reference here. You know, it's often been said
like there are there are only two war stories All and all war
stories are derivative of these two original war stories.
(26:49):
And they are Homer's Iliad and his Odyssey.
And the Iliad is the story of Achilles and the Greeks going to
war. And the Odyssey is the story of
returning from war. So there's only two stories, the
going to war and the returning. And so, you know, where do you
return to? You return to home.
(27:09):
So I think, I hope there's closure and I hope it's the sort
of final, the final chapter of this story.
Yeah, yeah. Gosh.
So for those who I mean, you andI both know that when you come
home, you you just don't come home the same at at varying
levels or degrees. For those people who haven't
(27:34):
found their home, but they haven't found that end, or
perhaps they're struggling with if their service in the global
war on terrorism mattered, what,what would you say to those
people? I think if you come home in
stages, you know, and you never know when those moments are
(27:57):
going to be when you actually finally feel like you're home.
And sometimes it can be a word that you have with someone.
I mean, sometimes it can be, I have children.
Sometimes it can be your children telling you something
about how they view that experience.
But it's just to, you know, keeptrying, like keep trying to come
home. And, you know, and, and
ultimately, too, we bring each other home like this is a
community of, of veterans. So yes, our families bring us
(28:20):
home and welcome us back. But we're bringing us, we're
bringing each other home. And this effort is an effort, I
think by all of us, by everyone who's been involved in this
memorial, whether they're, you know, a member of the Divide
Design Advisory Council. Are there anyone who, you know,
you know, picked up the surveys we sent down nationwide, you
know, you know, and not just those who wore the uniforms, but
(28:42):
the families of those who wore the uniforms or, or, you know,
civilians, you know, who want tosay what it meant for the
country. Like, you know, we bring each
other home. So.
So reach out, you know, get involved.
Or when this is done, just come to Washington and take a quiet
walk. I mean, you know, that can that
(29:02):
can be if you have to be open tothose moments so you can come
home. Yeah, absolutely.
You do have to be open to them. As you know, the foundation has
four tenants, which are Honor, Heal, Empower and Unite.
And I feel like indirectly, we've spoken about how the
(29:22):
memorial will honor all those who have served and sacrificed
in the Jiwat. We've talked about how it could
potentially provide healing. We've talked about uniting.
You know, this is home. I'm wondering what you might say
about the tenant of empower. Like, how do you see this
(29:45):
memorial empowering not only those who have played a part in
the G Wat, but two Americans at large?
I think 1, I mean, in many ways is empowering.
I think the most obvious one is if you want, you know, if a
person wants to go talk about, you know, their experience, you
(30:06):
know, in the War on Terror in Iraq, Afghanistan, I mean this,
this gives you a place that you can, that you can go, I mean,
take your kids, you know, walk through the memorial.
So I think it empowers in that way.
I think it opens up a conversation that people who
serve can have, you know, with with civilians who who didn't
(30:27):
serve. And I think that is empowering
often too, it's very difficult to know the entry point to go
back and kind of think about those experiences and allow
yourself to kind of come home. Then it can be tough for people
to find the entry point. And I've seen that the end.
You know, I write books, like often books can start a
conversation that is really helpful and empowers people.
(30:54):
And, you know, I myself have theexperience where, you know, I've
said to folks, you know, or any piece of art, you know, like,
like I fought in Fallujah, people sometimes ask me, what
was that like? And I've actually been like, you
know, what if you, if you watch Full Metal Jacket, the
second-half of Full Metal Jacket, that's what that was
like. And it actually empowers me to
be able to say that because I can point to something, you
(31:14):
know, and maybe, you know, maybewith the war on terrorism or
else someone can see, you know, someone can say like, I don't
have the words to say what this all was to me, but I can bring
you here. And, you know, we can look at
the memorial together. And that is empowering.
So it's a, you know, it gives people a tool.
And I think when you have a toolat your disposal, you know it
gives you. Power that is empowering.
(31:35):
You referenced dedication day earlier in our conversation,
which leads me to believe you'veyou've thought about it before.
I'm wondering what you if you have hope or what you hope to
feel or experience the first time that you visit our
(31:57):
memorial. Well, I think because I, like
you, have been so involved in the process.
What I, what I hope is to, is tosee it resonating with people
that, you know, that people are moved by it, that they, that
they see it and it unlocks something for them.
And that to me would be the mostimportant thing.
(32:19):
So I guess I'm not particularly fixed on what my own reaction
would be to it. I think I have a fix on, you
know, what I hope others will take away from it.
I hope people feel something. I hope it allows them to, to
feel something, to have a conversation, you know, and
then, you know, and maybe if there's something difficult
they're holding on to, to let itgo, you know, to let it go a
little bit. So, you know, that's my, that's
(32:42):
my hope and my hope, you know, on that day as to maybe see the
glimmers of that. But again, this isn't about it.
This one, obviously this one more, it's not about a day.
It's about, you know, it's aboutall the things that it's going
to do for, for years afterwards.And that's, you know, that's,
that's the promise. And that's why, you know, we're
working so hard on this. Absolutely, Elliot.
(33:05):
It's always such a pleasure spending time with you and
talking with you as I listen to you each and every time.
I'm like, man, he's saying exactly what I wanted to say,
but I just couldn't find the lyrics of you.
I guess it's yeah, it's pretty amazing each and every time.
(33:25):
My final question is just if there's anything else that you
want to add about your experience as the Design
Advisory Co Chair or just anything that we talked about
today, final words? I would just encourage, you
know, anyone listening or who, who is interested is, you know,
(33:47):
this is this is your memorial. So you know, get involved and
understand that this journey isn't over.
It might never be over. But the memorial I think too
will be an important way stationand, and it's not just something
for vets, it's something for ourkids, it's for our families.
(34:09):
This isn't something some small group of veterans is doing for
themselves. This is something we're trying
to do for everyone because the war affected everyone and still
effects everyone. So.
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Elliot,
for spending your time with us today.
I look forward to speaking with you again soon.
(34:30):
Always Thanks, Jen. Thanks, Elliot.
Welcome Home is produced by Jennifer Blum, Holly Soria and
me. Jennifer Blue, our operations
manager, is Henry Howard. Art for Welcome Home is by
Minerva Consulting. Our theme, A Place Like Home is
(34:50):
by Bergenson Lunberg via Epidemic.
Sound mixing and editing is by Jennifer Blum.
Thank you to Tal Podcast and theAmerican Legion for their
collaboration on this inaugural series.
You can find their episodes, guests, and more at legion.org
slash Tal. You can find out more about the
(35:13):
Global War on Terrorism MemorialFoundation, get updates on the
National War Memorial, and learnhow you can get involved by
following us on your favorite social media platforms or by
visiting GWOT Memorial foundation.org.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.