May 6, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode of Tank Talk, we dive into the often-misunderstood No Exposure Certification – what it is, what it isn’t, and why it’s not a free pass from stormwater regulations. Shannon and Haley break down the 11 conditions required for this permit exclusion, discuss real-world compliance challenges, and explain why choosing between a SWPPP or a No Exposure Certification requires careful consideration.
Think you qualify for No Exposure? You might want to double-check! Spoiler alert: It’s more complicated than it looks.
👉 Download the No Exposure Certification form (2020-msgp-noexp (1).pdf) to follow along as we go through the conditions one by one.
🔗 Referenced Episodes: Keeping SWPPPs Straight
Need expert guidance? Integrity is here to help - just give us a call!
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Episode Transcript
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Haley Hall (00:10):
Welcome to Tank Talk with Integrity Environmental.
Join us as we sit down withfounder, principal consultant
and bulk fuel storage expert,Shannon Oelkers, to explore
regulations, safety, andessential tips for navigating
the bulk fuel storage industry.
Join us as we explore theunique joys of work and life in
Alaska with industry experts,including our team, vendors we
(00:30):
work with and the companies wesupport.
Shannon Oelkers (00:33):
Welcome to Tank Talk.
Today's episode is a follow-upto keeping SWPPP"Straight
Straight Straight episode.
I highly recommend you listento that podcast before you dig
into this one.
Unless you're a rule breaker,then break on through, but do
not hold me accountable for anyconfusion.
Today I have with me Haley Halland she's going to help me walk
through the no exposurecertification which, as we
(00:54):
hinted to in keeping SWIFTstraight, is not as
straightforward as you wouldthink.
Haley Hall (00:57):
For sure! Shannon, on our last episode we sorted
through SWPPP's and what we needto know to keep them straight
In that podcast.
We briefly talked aboutsomething called a no exposure
certification and you wanted toput that part out for its own
podcast.
Shannon Oelkers (01:12):
I do.
There's a lot of misconceptionsabout the no exposure
certification and it seems supersimple on the front end but in
our experience it's reallydifficult to meet all the
requirements of this permitexclusion over time.
Haley Hall (01:25):
My first question: is a no exposure certification,
a stormwater permit?
Shannon Oelkers (01:36):
Sort of it's permit-like, permit-adjacent, if
you will.
To understand this, you got tounderstand a little bit about
how the Clean Water Act permitswork.
Under the Clean Water Act, allindustrial facilities within an
identified industrial sector,like transportation, they're
subject to the MSGP and mustprepare a SWPPP unless they can
show that they meet certaincriteria that would exclude the
facility from permit coverage.
(01:56):
This can go two ways.
One way is that you don't meetthe sector-specific
requirements, and you must get acustomized individual permit.
The other way is to attest thatcertain conditions exist at
your facility that ensurestormwater does not get exposed
to potential pollutants, andthen your no exposure
certification is an exclusionfrom the permit condition.
Haley Hall (02:16):
That's really confusing.
Shannon Oelkers (02:18):
Yeah, I feel like you have to be a lawyer
almost to understand that.
But the kicker is is that ifyou fail to meet the no exposure
certification requirements,everything that the SWPPP's
requires becomes immediately ineffect.
You're no longer excluded fromthe SWPPP requirements.
So back to the lawyer piece.
There's a reason we have a job.
(02:40):
Because this is confusing, Ithink what I would say with the
plain English takeaway is that ano exposure certificate is not
a hall pass, or a get out ofjail free card.
A lot of people feel like whenthey get a no exposure
certification, they don't haveto do a SWPPP, and that's how
they view it.
Like oh, I don't have to get aSWPPP, I can get this no
(03:00):
exposure certification.
But I want to remind peoplethat it's your company attesting
that the 11 conditions that I'mabout to talk about are met at
the facility at all times duringthe five-year duration of the
no exposure certification, andthat you are not subject to the
conditions or monitoringrequirements as long as those
conditions are met.
Haley Hall (03:19):
Attest..
.
That sounds very.
.
.
legal?
Shannon Oelkers (03:23):
It is.
It is.
It's a legal commitment.
A no exposure certification isa legal commitment by the
facility management that the 11conditions that it talks about
are being met.
What makes this tricky is thatin real life, meeting this
condition is really challenging.
For example, one of theconditions is that any container
that collects stormwater andcould expose stormwater to
pollutants or industrial wastes,not is but could - think of a
(03:51):
dumpster with a flipped open lid.
It's really hard to make surethat all of your employees shut
that lid every time they takethe trash out - for example,
right?
Before any stormwater collectsin there.
Haley Hall (03:59):
Wow, imagine operations being different than
the permit conditions.
Shannon Oelkers (04:03):
Yeah, and this is where we work with companies
to evaluate risk and select whatfits best for their real- life
situation.
Sometimes they may meet the noexposure certification, but a
SWPPP makes more sense becauseit allows for human error and
what they're doing.
It may be important for otherreasons as well, as far as risk
(04:24):
mitigation.
Haley Hall (04:26):
Well, let's see if we can help people understand
this better.
Let's get through these 11conditions.
Shannon Oelkers (04:31):
Okay, but before we do that - because this
is very legal, I feel like Iwould like to remind people that
I am not a state or federalregulator.
I'm also not a lawyer, so theseare just my opinions.
They're really good opinionsand they're based on real world
enforcement actions that I havehad the privilege of working on
at Integrity.
But I would like all of ourlisteners to listen wisely.
(04:52):
Just because I say it heredoesn't mean it will be true for
your specific facility and yourspecific situation, and it may
not even be true at all.
I'm getting old, Haley.
There's room for improvementsometimes.
For our discussion of the noexposure condition, Haley, I
think it would be really helpful.
There's a no exposurecertification form in the show
(05:15):
notes and I would like all ofour listeners to kind of open
that up or print it out, have itavailable so you can review it.
It's only three pages long, butwhat I'd like them to do is
follow along as we go throughthese conditions.
There's 11 conditions that haveto be met.
They're all super weird andlong.
I would hate for somebody to bedriving down the road and
trying to remember all this.
So if you have this and youwant to read along, I would
(05:36):
suggest going to our show notesand grabbing that and then
proceeding from here.
Haley Hall (05:58):
So the first no exposure condition is th"Using,
storing, or cleaning industrialmachinery or equipment, and
areas where residuals fromusing, storing, or cleaning
industrial machinery orequipment remain and are not
exposed to storm water.
"
Shannon Oelkers (06:07):
Thank you, EPA! Seems like it's easy to do on
the surface, but keep in mindthat parking a fuel truck with a
minor engine oil leak or oiland grease residue in the hose
cabinet will disqualify you ifthey impact stormwater.
So the truck's sitting out inyour yard and there's a sheen
underneath the truck where someof those particulates collected?
DQ! Time to get a sweat or timeto fix the problem.
(06:27):
If there's sheen and puddles inyour yard, stained gravel, dead
grass in your parking area, youalso meet this condition.
You can park it under a roof.
That's the safest bet here.
But a lot of facilities do nothave enough covered parking for
all of their rolling stock.
I mean that's a lot of roughacreage there.
Haley Hall (06:44):
Well, can you talk about cleaning the industrial
equipment?
I feel like we get asked abouttruck washing so often by our
clients.
Shannon Oelkers (06:52):
So much! Okay.
Well, the beginning and end tothis very long, very boring,
nonsensical, non-common- sensestory is that truck washing used
to be allowed under the MSGP,prior to 2020, but now it is not
.
It makes no sense.
It does not make sense forAlaska in particular.
(07:12):
The state and feds assume thatindustrially permitted car
washes are available in allcommunities, and this sets up
our remote facilities forsomething of a failure, because
there are no commerciallypermitted car washes in 95% of
Alaska.
I just want to reiterate youcannot use Harbor Master, you
can't use power washing, even ifyou use no soap.
(07:34):
The only option is that allwashwaters must be collected and
treated in accordance withindustrial wastewater
regulations, which is usually aspecific type of filtration
system, and or sending it to asewer treatment facility.
And then the last piece theycannot and I have to repeat,
cannot co-mingle with stormwaterdischarges.
(07:55):
The EPA calls them illicitconnections and it sounds so
sordid, but it just means thatyou have wash water mixing with
your stormwater.
It can't happen, it's illicit.
So if you claim a no exposureexemption but you're washing
your trucks when they get dirty,or power washing the algae and
bird poop off your tank everyyear - which I know a few people
(08:17):
that do that all the time, youdon't meet this requirement.
Honestly, truck washing couldbe another whole podcast episode
, because if you're doing thisunder any slip, it's a violation
there too.
There's a lot of discussionabout the lack of common sense
on this one, and I feel you.
I feel you so hard.
It would not be a regulationthat I would make up.
It's a very tough requirementfor facilities to comply with in
the state of Alaska, but Ican't change it.
(08:38):
It is what it is.
Haley Hall (08:48):
So, the second no exposure condition is that "no
materials or residuals are onthe ground or in the stormwater
inlets from spills or leaks
Shannon Oelkers (08:52):
Yep again keep a clean yard.
This seems easy to meet.
However, there are so manythings in a typical fuel yard
that could release fuel andimpact stormwater or soils.
Think laying out your fuelhoses, weeps and drips from the
end of that.
Setting aside a used drip panand the wind flips it over,
you've got a five-gallon bucketof oily rags that gets left out,
(09:12):
filled up with rain water.
For this one - housekeeping iskey to meeting this requirement,
and documenting that your yardis free of these items is
important too.
And I have a pro tip if youwant to be a pro if you're
frequently documenting thatthere's no materials or
residuals on the ground, ifsomething's found during a
formal inspection by the stateor the EPA, you will have that
(09:34):
documentation as evidence thatit's only been there for a few
days, or since the lastinspection.
It's not as far back as theycan go by legal allowance,
because you've got thesedocuments saying nothing here,
signed and dated.
Haley Hall (09:48):
Right.
So important! The third noexposure condition is that there
are no materials or productsfrom past industrial activity.
What are the materials orproducts from past industrial
activities?
Shannon Oelkers (09:59):
Haley,.
Haley, we get a lot of "Huh?
on this one In my experience Iwould say think old
out-of-service tanks, the fueltruck that had the drivetrain
die in it last year, emptybarrels with residual oils on
your empty barrel rack,abandoned pipelines, stuff that
used to store oil but no longerdoes, for whatever reason.
Now if these items exist butthey were properly
(10:21):
decommissioned and are oil-free,labeled out of service with the
date you took them out ofservice and you have a nice
record of the decommissioningproject, then this is not a
problem.
But the key to meeting thiscondition is that the items are
intentionally removed fromservice and are documented as
oil free and they are notactually causing sheen or soil
contamination in real life.
(10:43):
Every tankyard in Alaska haslike a boneyard somewhere with
equipment that's out of service.
You just need to make sure thatit's documented and that you're
not adding to the problem byputting an empty barrel on your
empty barrel rack and having itleak a little out the bunghole,
like stuff like that.
Again, maintenance doingroutine inspections to make sure
those things are not happening,doing an annual review to make
(11:05):
sure that if anything did getadded to the boneyard, you've
got the documentation you'resupposed to have for it.
That can all make this areality.
But it's not a do nothing forfive years kind of a thing Right
, for five years kind of a thingRight.
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Haley Hall (12:01):
So, number four is there are no material handling
equipment, except adequatelymaintained vehicles exposed to
stormwater.
Shannon Oelkers (12:09):
For this one, you kind of have to know what
the definition of materialhandling equipment is under the
MSGP, and that includes hoses,piping pumps, marine headers,
tank truck loading rack arms,tank trucks and pretty much
anything you use to transferfuel.
You have it all under a roof,so rain cannot hit it.
You are good to go.
But what trips people up onthis is that the tank trucks are
(12:30):
not parked under a roof.
And if the tank truck isadequately maintained, no
problem.
Like I said earlier, if it'sleaking oil in some way or has
residuals in the cabinet, youmay not be meeting this
requirement.
And then, lastly, a lot of ourmarine headers don't necessarily
have a storm resistant shelterover them, which could be a
disqualifier on this one.
You know they can have a blindflange on them and they can be
(12:52):
covered.
But when you're transferringthe fuel from the barge, that's
a live transfer, and if it's notcovered during the transfer,
that's something that I thinkwould probably kick you out of
this one.
Haley Hall (13:02):
Gotcha.
So, five is no materials orproducts are exposed to
stormwater during loading andunloading or transporting
activities.
Shannon Oelkers (13:12):
Yeah, If it gets wet when it rains, then
this is stormwater exposure andI wish the EPA would just say it
.
If it gets wet, you are nowexposed.
If you've got sheen showing upin your containment or on the
ground during a fuel transfer,you don't meet this requirement.
The big kicker for thisrequirement is connection points
.
When you engage or disengagethe barge hoses, when you fill
that tank truck up, when you'reunloading drums from a connex
(13:35):
and fuel spills, there can be nodrip sweeps or residues exposed
to storm water.
So operationally this can be alittle challenging for
facilities to meet over time.
Like stuff happens the bargeshows up, you have to take way
too much stuff way too fast andthings stand outside for a
couple hours while you'rewaiting.
Again, it's doable but it takessome work.
Haley Hall (13:55):
Okay, number six materials or products stored
outdoors, except final productsintended for outside use, for
example, new cars where exposureto stormwater does not result
in the discharge of pollutants.
Shannon Oelkers (14:09):
This one is pretty easy to wrap your mind
around and it's related toongoing maintenance.
Most bulk tanks or piping runsdo not have roofs over them
because hello fire, marshal, Idon't want anybody to die.
But if they are maintained, Ibelieve they are considered
intended for outside use.
So, as long as exposure tostormwater doesn't result in
discharge or pollution, you meetthis criteria.
And what trips people up hereis that they have gasket leaks
(14:31):
or spills during routinemaintenance or cleaning or
damage from snow or ice, andthat so lucky number seven is no
materials contained in open,deteriorated or leaking storage
drums, barrels, tanks and anysimilar containers.
I think this is the easiest oneto understand of the whole list.
(14:53):
If it's open, deteriorated orleaking, you cannot have it full
of potential pollutants fromyour industrial material, which
is typically fuel for most ofour listeners, and it can't be
outside getting wet Again.
Housekeeping.
This is all housekeeping If youour listeners and it can't be
outside getting wet Again,housekeeping.
This is all housekeeping.
If you see it, you pull itinside.
Haley Hall (15:14):
So for number eight, we have no materials or
products handled or stored onroads or railways, owned or
maintained by the discharger,
Shannon Oelkers (15:17):
So, this is a frequent head scratcher for some
of our clients.
It confused me too at thebeginning of my career.
Again, this is a set ofquestions that applies to 29
different industrial sectors,and this includes things like
timber yards and mines, whereyou could create large piles of
ore, wood shavings, waste, rock,whatever, and store that
outside for shipping and thatmight be there for a while.
This doesn't seem to applystrongly to our focus sectors,
(15:40):
such as sectors P or S or R.
I would only worry aboutmeeting this exclusion point if
you have a rail rack or aprivate road on your property
and you are storing potentialpollutants in trucks or rail
cars that could get wet orimpacted by stormwater.
Haley Hall (15:55):
Gotcha! Number nine has me down in the dumps.
No waste material except wastein covered, non-leaking
containers like dumpsters.
Shannon Oelkers (16:05):
I see, I see what you did there.
The biggest disqualifier inthis area is open topped
dumpsters.
If your dumpster doesn't have alid or your staff frequently
leave that lid open, that woulddisqualify you from no exposure
certification here.
If your housekeeping is poorand you have waste materials all
over your yard, like sorbentsand plastic liners caught along
(16:27):
the fence and oily rags, andopen top five gallon buckets,
this is also a DQ for you, andthis includes like post-project
work, like sometimes people aredoing huge projects and fixing
boats and they have a wholebunch of pallets of waste that
they need to like get rid ofafter the project's done.
If you don't take itimmediately to your waste
maintenance area and you'releaving it in the pallet in the
(16:49):
middle of the yard and it'sgetting wet or could get wet,
then that's a violation of yourstormwater exemption here.
Haley Hall (16:56):
Shannon, every time you say DQ, I just hear a loud
buzzer, and I see red lights andI hear eh eh! Bringing us to
number 10, we are in thehomestretch now.
"No application or disposal ofprocessed wastewater unless
otherwise permitted.
Yes, the big PW.
Processed wastewater is anywater that does not come from
(17:17):
the sky and is produced by anindustrial activity.
We can think of de-icing fluid,power washing a ship's hull to
remove marine debris, powerwashing a tank to remove bird
poop.
If you create it, it has to bedisposed of through a permitted
channel, whether that's ahydrostatic test permit or one
of the many wastewater permitsavailable to collect, treat and
discharge processed wastewaters.
(17:38):
If you create a processedwastewater, which most
facilities do in some form,you've got to be able to
containerize it, treat it andhave that permitting in place or
access to a treatmentcontractor like Republic
Services, who can come, suck itup and take it away for
treatment and provide you ainvoice for it.
So last one, number 11, "no particulate matter or
(17:58):
visible deposits of residualsfrom roof stacks and or vents
not otherwise regulated, forexample under an air quality
control permit, and evident inthe stormwater outflow.
Shannon Oelkers (18:10):
This is another one of the exemptions that
applies more strongly todifferent sectors than P, R or S
, which most of our clients fallunder.
So sometimes I've seen blackparticulates from propane
heaters leave visible depositson snow piles, but for most of
our clients this isn't an issue,especially if they've got air
permits in place for their powerplant waste incinerators or
vapor combustion units.
I think something would have tobe malfunctioning really badly
(18:33):
for this one to not be true forour clients.
Haley Hall (18:36):
We made it through that list and you were right.
The list looks so simple, butwhen you sit down and go through
each one, it covers so much.
Shannon Oelkers (18:44):
It sure does, and the important part to walk
away with from this podcast isthat it only takes one of these
many things that we discussed tonot be right, and you have to
immediately obtain SWPPPcoverage or face pretty stiff
penalties.
Haley Hall (18:56):
Yikes.
So is this a one and done kindof deal?
If you fail to meet any ofthese conditions, you can never
have a no exposure certificationagain?
Shannon Oelkers (19:04):
Well, that is some good news, Haley.
The MSGP allows forimprovements to infrastructure
or procedures that will allowyou to go from a SWPPP back to
no exposure.
The kicker here, though, isthat you have to show
documentable changes.
You know I love that worddocumentable.
Just saying you retrained yourstaff on housekeeping doesn't
usually cut it with the state orthe EPA.
(19:24):
They are usually looking foryou to install a roof, pave a
parking area, have it drained toa collection sump.
They want you to replace thedamaged container or install
dumpsters with lids if youdidn't have them before.
They want documentable things.
A big problem with keeping theno exposure certification is
that if you have a history ofreportable spills, like any
(19:45):
amount to water, any amount over10 gallons to land and more
than 55 gallons to yoursecondary containment, that's
considered an impact ofstormwater and you need to
obtain a SWPPP coverage untilyou can resolve whatever caused
that spill.
So under the MSGP, any sheen isan impact of stormwater and
that kicks you out of the noexposure status.
So it's difficult.
Haley Hall (20:05):
And is that why Integrity urges our clients to
carefully consider no exposurecertification?
Shannon Oelkers (20:09):
Yeah, In many ways it's a lot of work, almost
as much work as a SWPPP, and ifanything goes wrong you'll have
to get that SWPPP and in a hurry.
I'm not saying don't get one,but it's not a hall pass that
apparently everybody thinks itis, but we still have to work at
it and keep records and doroutine inspections and employee
training and show you'remaintaining compliance, and for
a lot of our clients, the SWPPPends up being easier for them to
(20:31):
meet the requirements and lessrisky for being assessed for
violations if they misssomething.
One other thing I'd like to add, Haley, is that a lot of people
don't realize that state andfederal regulators can, and
often do, inspect no exposurefacilities as well as the SWPPP
covered facilities, and so Ialso think there's this
misconception that if you get ano exposure, the state's never
going to come look you up.
(20:51):
No, they do.
They inspect no exposurefacilities just as much as they
do SWPPPs, and often, if you'rein the same community as a SWPPP
, they'll inspect you all at thesame time.
Haley Hall (21:00):
So, would you say that this is a key takeaway
Shannon, no exposurecertification is not a hall pass
?
Shannon Oelkers (21:10):
Yep, that's exactly right.
You're going to go the noexposure certification route.
We strongly recommend you do anaudit of your facility
infrastructure and of thestandard operating procedures
and take a hard look at whatyour ideal is and then what's
happening in reality at thatfacility before you commit to a
no exposure.
Haley Hall (21:21):
Is there anything else you want to say about
SWPPPs and no exposure, Shannon?
Shannon Oelkers (21:25):
Just one last thing.
If your industry is coveredunder the MSGP, you have to have
either a SWPPP or a no exposurecertification.
If you don't have either oneand your SIC code is listed in
Appendix D of the MSGP, you'renot compliant.
Call us, we can help with that.
When we do client onboarding weoften hear from clients that
(21:46):
they don't have a SWPPP becausethey feel that there's no
exposure.
But they never went andactually got the no exposure
certification.
You can't just say I don't haveany exposure, I don't need to
meet that.
You actually have to sign theattestation and then show that
you're meeting it.
So if you don't have that,that's full noncompliance right
there and that's going to betricky to navigate.
Haley Hall (22:05):
Well, that is good to note.
Thank you so much, Shannon.
I feel like I've learned somuch between last episode and
this episode.
Shannon Oelkers (22:11):
Yeah, thank you , Haley.
This was a good and timelytopic to cover.
It's also an easier one to fixif you're not right with.
I hope our listeners enjoyedthis run through and I would
point all of our listeners tothe free resources we posted
under the Keeping SWPPP Straightpodcast episode.
If they want to learn more, Ihave linked the no exposure
certification form to thisepisode and, as always, if you
need help sorting this out,Integrity is happy to help.
(22:33):
Just give us a call.
Haley Hall (22:34):
Thanks, Shannon.
Shannon Oelkers (22:36):
Hi there, this is Shannon Oelkers and, as the
owner of Integrity Environmental, I wanted to take a minute here
at the end of the podcast tomake sure that you knew the
following this podcast is forinformational purposes only and
should not be considered legalor regulatory advice.
We are not responsible for anylosses, damages or liabilities
that may arise from the use ofthis podcast.
(22:57):
This podcast is not intended toreplace professional regulatory
or legal advice.
Is not intended to replaceprofessional regulatory or legal
advice, and the views expressedin this podcast may not be
those of the host.
That would be me or IntegrityEnvironmental.
Thank you very much forlistening and if you do need
professional regulatory advice,we'd be happy to help you as
part of our consulting services.
Welcome to Tank Talk with Integrity Environmental.
Join us as we sit down withfounder, principal consultant
and bulk fuel storage expert,Shannon Oelkers, to explore
regulations, safety, andessential tips for navigating
the bulk fuel storage industry.
Join us as we explore theunique joys of work and life in
Alaska with industry experts,including our team, vendors we
(00:30):
work with and the companies wesupport.
Shannon Oelkers (00:33):
Welcome to Tank Talk.
Today's episode is a follow-upto keeping SWPPP"Straight
Straight Straight episode.
I highly recommend you listento that podcast before you dig
into this one.
Unless you're a rule breaker,then break on through, but do
not hold me accountable for anyconfusion.
Today I have with me Haley Halland she's going to help me walk
through the no exposurecertification which, as we
(00:54):
hinted to in keeping SWIFTstraight, is not as
straightforward as you wouldthink.
Haley Hall (00:57):
For sure! Shannon, on our last episode we sorted
through SWPPP's and what we needto know to keep them straight
In that podcast.
We briefly talked aboutsomething called a no exposure
certification and you wanted toput that part out for its own
podcast.
Shannon Oelkers (01:12):
I do.
There's a lot of misconceptionsabout the no exposure
certification and it seems supersimple on the front end but in
our experience it's reallydifficult to meet all the
requirements of this permitexclusion over time.
Haley Hall (01:25):
My first question: is a no exposure certification,
a stormwater permit?
Shannon Oelkers (01:36):
Sort of it's permit-like, permit-adjacent, if
you will.
To understand this, you got tounderstand a little bit about
how the Clean Water Act permitswork.
Under the Clean Water Act, allindustrial facilities within an
identified industrial sector,like transportation, they're
subject to the MSGP and mustprepare a SWPPP unless they can
show that they meet certaincriteria that would exclude the
facility from permit coverage.
(01:56):
This can go two ways.
One way is that you don't meetthe sector-specific
requirements, and you must get acustomized individual permit.
The other way is to attest thatcertain conditions exist at
your facility that ensurestormwater does not get exposed
to potential pollutants, andthen your no exposure
certification is an exclusionfrom the permit condition.
Haley Hall (02:16):
That's really confusing.
Shannon Oelkers (02:18):
Yeah, I feel like you have to be a lawyer
almost to understand that.
But the kicker is is that ifyou fail to meet the no exposure
certification requirements,everything that the SWPPP's
requires becomes immediately ineffect.
You're no longer excluded fromthe SWPPP requirements.
So back to the lawyer piece.
There's a reason we have a job.
(02:40):
Because this is confusing, Ithink what I would say with the
plain English takeaway is that ano exposure certificate is not
a hall pass, or a get out ofjail free card.
A lot of people feel like whenthey get a no exposure
certification, they don't haveto do a SWPPP, and that's how
they view it.
Like oh, I don't have to get aSWPPP, I can get this no
(03:00):
exposure certification.
But I want to remind peoplethat it's your company attesting
that the 11 conditions that I'mabout to talk about are met at
the facility at all times duringthe five-year duration of the
no exposure certification, andthat you are not subject to the
conditions or monitoringrequirements as long as those
conditions are met.
Haley Hall (03:19):
Attest..
.
That sounds very.
.
.
legal?
Shannon Oelkers (03:23):
It is.
It is.
It's a legal commitment.
A no exposure certification isa legal commitment by the
facility management that the 11conditions that it talks about
are being met.
What makes this tricky is thatin real life, meeting this
condition is really challenging.
For example, one of theconditions is that any container
that collects stormwater andcould expose stormwater to
pollutants or industrial wastes,not is but could - think of a
(03:51):
dumpster with a flipped open lid.
It's really hard to make surethat all of your employees shut
that lid every time they takethe trash out - for example,
right?
Before any stormwater collectsin there.
Haley Hall (03:59):
Wow, imagine operations being different than
the permit conditions.
Shannon Oelkers (04:03):
Yeah, and this is where we work with companies
to evaluate risk and select whatfits best for their real- life
situation.
Sometimes they may meet the noexposure certification, but a
SWPPP makes more sense becauseit allows for human error and
what they're doing.
It may be important for otherreasons as well, as far as risk
(04:24):
mitigation.
Haley Hall (04:26):
Well, let's see if we can help people understand
this better.
Let's get through these 11conditions.
Shannon Oelkers (04:31):
Okay, but before we do that - because this
is very legal, I feel like Iwould like to remind people that
I am not a state or federalregulator.
I'm also not a lawyer, so theseare just my opinions.
They're really good opinionsand they're based on real world
enforcement actions that I havehad the privilege of working on
at Integrity.
But I would like all of ourlisteners to listen wisely.
(04:52):
Just because I say it heredoesn't mean it will be true for
your specific facility and yourspecific situation, and it may
not even be true at all.
I'm getting old, Haley.
There's room for improvementsometimes.
For our discussion of the noexposure condition, Haley, I
think it would be really helpful.
There's a no exposurecertification form in the show
(05:15):
notes and I would like all ofour listeners to kind of open
that up or print it out, have itavailable so you can review it.
It's only three pages long, butwhat I'd like them to do is
follow along as we go throughthese conditions.
There's 11 conditions that haveto be met.
They're all super weird andlong.
I would hate for somebody to bedriving down the road and
trying to remember all this.
So if you have this and youwant to read along, I would
(05:36):
suggest going to our show notesand grabbing that and then
proceeding from here.
Haley Hall (05:58):
So the first no exposure condition is th"Using,
storing, or cleaning industrialmachinery or equipment, and
areas where residuals fromusing, storing, or cleaning
industrial machinery orequipment remain and are not
exposed to storm water.
"
Shannon Oelkers (06:07):
Thank you, EPA! Seems like it's easy to do on
the surface, but keep in mindthat parking a fuel truck with a
minor engine oil leak or oiland grease residue in the hose
cabinet will disqualify you ifthey impact stormwater.
So the truck's sitting out inyour yard and there's a sheen
underneath the truck where someof those particulates collected?
DQ! Time to get a sweat or timeto fix the problem.
(06:27):
If there's sheen and puddles inyour yard, stained gravel, dead
grass in your parking area, youalso meet this condition.
You can park it under a roof.
That's the safest bet here.
But a lot of facilities do nothave enough covered parking for
all of their rolling stock.
I mean that's a lot of roughacreage there.
Haley Hall (06:44):
Well, can you talk about cleaning the industrial
equipment?
I feel like we get asked abouttruck washing so often by our
clients.
Shannon Oelkers (06:52):
So much! Okay.
Well, the beginning and end tothis very long, very boring,
nonsensical, non-common- sensestory is that truck washing used
to be allowed under the MSGP,prior to 2020, but now it is not
.
It makes no sense.
It does not make sense forAlaska in particular.
(07:12):
The state and feds assume thatindustrially permitted car
washes are available in allcommunities, and this sets up
our remote facilities forsomething of a failure, because
there are no commerciallypermitted car washes in 95% of
Alaska.
I just want to reiterate youcannot use Harbor Master, you
can't use power washing, even ifyou use no soap.
(07:34):
The only option is that allwashwaters must be collected and
treated in accordance withindustrial wastewater
regulations, which is usually aspecific type of filtration
system, and or sending it to asewer treatment facility.
And then the last piece theycannot and I have to repeat,
cannot co-mingle with stormwaterdischarges.
(07:55):
The EPA calls them illicitconnections and it sounds so
sordid, but it just means thatyou have wash water mixing with
your stormwater.
It can't happen, it's illicit.
So if you claim a no exposureexemption but you're washing
your trucks when they get dirty,or power washing the algae and
bird poop off your tank everyyear - which I know a few people
(08:17):
that do that all the time, youdon't meet this requirement.
Honestly, truck washing couldbe another whole podcast episode
, because if you're doing thisunder any slip, it's a violation
there too.
There's a lot of discussionabout the lack of common sense
on this one, and I feel you.
I feel you so hard.
It would not be a regulationthat I would make up.
It's a very tough requirementfor facilities to comply with in
the state of Alaska, but Ican't change it.
(08:38):
It is what it is.
Haley Hall (08:48):
So, the second no exposure condition is that "no
materials or residuals are onthe ground or in the stormwater
inlets from spills or leaks
Shannon Oelkers (08:52):
Yep again keep a clean yard.
This seems easy to meet.
However, there are so manythings in a typical fuel yard
that could release fuel andimpact stormwater or soils.
Think laying out your fuelhoses, weeps and drips from the
end of that.
Setting aside a used drip panand the wind flips it over,
you've got a five-gallon bucketof oily rags that gets left out,
(09:12):
filled up with rain water.
For this one - housekeeping iskey to meeting this requirement,
and documenting that your yardis free of these items is
important too.
And I have a pro tip if youwant to be a pro if you're
frequently documenting thatthere's no materials or
residuals on the ground, ifsomething's found during a
formal inspection by the stateor the EPA, you will have that
(09:34):
documentation as evidence thatit's only been there for a few
days, or since the lastinspection.
It's not as far back as theycan go by legal allowance,
because you've got thesedocuments saying nothing here,
signed and dated.
Haley Hall (09:48):
Right.
So important! The third noexposure condition is that there
are no materials or productsfrom past industrial activity.
What are the materials orproducts from past industrial
activities?
Shannon Oelkers (09:59):
Haley,.
Haley, we get a lot of "Huh?
on this one In my experience Iwould say think old
out-of-service tanks, the fueltruck that had the drivetrain
die in it last year, emptybarrels with residual oils on
your empty barrel rack,abandoned pipelines, stuff that
used to store oil but no longerdoes, for whatever reason.
Now if these items exist butthey were properly
(10:21):
decommissioned and are oil-free,labeled out of service with the
date you took them out ofservice and you have a nice
record of the decommissioningproject, then this is not a
problem.
But the key to meeting thiscondition is that the items are
intentionally removed fromservice and are documented as
oil free and they are notactually causing sheen or soil
contamination in real life.
(10:43):
Every tankyard in Alaska haslike a boneyard somewhere with
equipment that's out of service.
You just need to make sure thatit's documented and that you're
not adding to the problem byputting an empty barrel on your
empty barrel rack and having itleak a little out the bunghole,
like stuff like that.
Again, maintenance doingroutine inspections to make sure
those things are not happening,doing an annual review to make
(11:05):
sure that if anything did getadded to the boneyard, you've
got the documentation you'resupposed to have for it.
That can all make this areality.
But it's not a do nothing forfive years kind of a thing Right
, for five years kind of a thingRight.
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Haley Hall (12:01):
So, number four is there are no material handling
equipment, except adequatelymaintained vehicles exposed to
stormwater.
Shannon Oelkers (12:09):
For this one, you kind of have to know what
the definition of materialhandling equipment is under the
MSGP, and that includes hoses,piping pumps, marine headers,
tank truck loading rack arms,tank trucks and pretty much
anything you use to transferfuel.
You have it all under a roof,so rain cannot hit it.
You are good to go.
But what trips people up onthis is that the tank trucks are
(12:30):
not parked under a roof.
And if the tank truck isadequately maintained, no
problem.
Like I said earlier, if it'sleaking oil in some way or has
residuals in the cabinet, youmay not be meeting this
requirement.
And then, lastly, a lot of ourmarine headers don't necessarily
have a storm resistant shelterover them, which could be a
disqualifier on this one.
You know they can have a blindflange on them and they can be
(12:52):
covered.
But when you're transferringthe fuel from the barge, that's
a live transfer, and if it's notcovered during the transfer,
that's something that I thinkwould probably kick you out of
this one.
Haley Hall (13:02):
Gotcha.
So, five is no materials orproducts are exposed to
stormwater during loading andunloading or transporting
activities.
Shannon Oelkers (13:12):
Yeah, If it gets wet when it rains, then
this is stormwater exposure andI wish the EPA would just say it
.
If it gets wet, you are nowexposed.
If you've got sheen showing upin your containment or on the
ground during a fuel transfer,you don't meet this requirement.
The big kicker for thisrequirement is connection points
.
When you engage or disengagethe barge hoses, when you fill
that tank truck up, when you'reunloading drums from a connex
(13:35):
and fuel spills, there can be nodrip sweeps or residues exposed
to storm water.
So operationally this can be alittle challenging for
facilities to meet over time.
Like stuff happens the bargeshows up, you have to take way
too much stuff way too fast andthings stand outside for a
couple hours while you'rewaiting.
Again, it's doable but it takessome work.
Haley Hall (13:55):
Okay, number six materials or products stored
outdoors, except final productsintended for outside use, for
example, new cars where exposureto stormwater does not result
in the discharge of pollutants.
Shannon Oelkers (14:09):
This one is pretty easy to wrap your mind
around and it's related toongoing maintenance.
Most bulk tanks or piping runsdo not have roofs over them
because hello fire, marshal, Idon't want anybody to die.
But if they are maintained, Ibelieve they are considered
intended for outside use.
So, as long as exposure tostormwater doesn't result in
discharge or pollution, you meetthis criteria.
And what trips people up hereis that they have gasket leaks
(14:31):
or spills during routinemaintenance or cleaning or
damage from snow or ice, andthat so lucky number seven is no
materials contained in open,deteriorated or leaking storage
drums, barrels, tanks and anysimilar containers.
I think this is the easiest oneto understand of the whole list.
(14:53):
If it's open, deteriorated orleaking, you cannot have it full
of potential pollutants fromyour industrial material, which
is typically fuel for most ofour listeners, and it can't be
outside getting wet Again.
Housekeeping.
This is all housekeeping If youour listeners and it can't be
outside getting wet Again,housekeeping.
This is all housekeeping.
If you see it, you pull itinside.
Haley Hall (15:14):
So for number eight, we have no materials or
products handled or stored onroads or railways, owned or
maintained by the discharger,
Shannon Oelkers (15:17):
So, this is a frequent head scratcher for some
of our clients.
It confused me too at thebeginning of my career.
Again, this is a set ofquestions that applies to 29
different industrial sectors,and this includes things like
timber yards and mines, whereyou could create large piles of
ore, wood shavings, waste, rock,whatever, and store that
outside for shipping and thatmight be there for a while.
This doesn't seem to applystrongly to our focus sectors,
(15:40):
such as sectors P or S or R.
I would only worry aboutmeeting this exclusion point if
you have a rail rack or aprivate road on your property
and you are storing potentialpollutants in trucks or rail
cars that could get wet orimpacted by stormwater.
Haley Hall (15:55):
Gotcha! Number nine has me down in the dumps.
No waste material except wastein covered, non-leaking
containers like dumpsters.
Shannon Oelkers (16:05):
I see, I see what you did there.
The biggest disqualifier inthis area is open topped
dumpsters.
If your dumpster doesn't have alid or your staff frequently
leave that lid open, that woulddisqualify you from no exposure
certification here.
If your housekeeping is poorand you have waste materials all
over your yard, like sorbentsand plastic liners caught along
(16:27):
the fence and oily rags, andopen top five gallon buckets,
this is also a DQ for you, andthis includes like post-project
work, like sometimes people aredoing huge projects and fixing
boats and they have a wholebunch of pallets of waste that
they need to like get rid ofafter the project's done.
If you don't take itimmediately to your waste
maintenance area and you'releaving it in the pallet in the
(16:49):
middle of the yard and it'sgetting wet or could get wet,
then that's a violation of yourstormwater exemption here.
Haley Hall (16:56):
Shannon, every time you say DQ, I just hear a loud
buzzer, and I see red lights andI hear eh eh! Bringing us to
number 10, we are in thehomestretch now.
"No application or disposal ofprocessed wastewater unless
otherwise permitted.
Yes, the big PW.
Processed wastewater is anywater that does not come from
(17:17):
the sky and is produced by anindustrial activity.
We can think of de-icing fluid,power washing a ship's hull to
remove marine debris, powerwashing a tank to remove bird
poop.
If you create it, it has to bedisposed of through a permitted
channel, whether that's ahydrostatic test permit or one
of the many wastewater permitsavailable to collect, treat and
discharge processed wastewaters.
(17:38):
If you create a processedwastewater, which most
facilities do in some form,you've got to be able to
containerize it, treat it andhave that permitting in place or
access to a treatmentcontractor like Republic
Services, who can come, suck itup and take it away for
treatment and provide you ainvoice for it.
So last one, number 11, "no particulate matter or
(17:58):
visible deposits of residualsfrom roof stacks and or vents
not otherwise regulated, forexample under an air quality
control permit, and evident inthe stormwater outflow.
Shannon Oelkers (18:10):
This is another one of the exemptions that
applies more strongly todifferent sectors than P, R or S
, which most of our clients fallunder.
So sometimes I've seen blackparticulates from propane
heaters leave visible depositson snow piles, but for most of
our clients this isn't an issue,especially if they've got air
permits in place for their powerplant waste incinerators or
vapor combustion units.
I think something would have tobe malfunctioning really badly
(18:33):
for this one to not be true forour clients.
Haley Hall (18:36):
We made it through that list and you were right.
The list looks so simple, butwhen you sit down and go through
each one, it covers so much.
Shannon Oelkers (18:44):
It sure does, and the important part to walk
away with from this podcast isthat it only takes one of these
many things that we discussed tonot be right, and you have to
immediately obtain SWPPPcoverage or face pretty stiff
penalties.
Haley Hall (18:56):
Yikes.
So is this a one and done kindof deal?
If you fail to meet any ofthese conditions, you can never
have a no exposure certificationagain?
Shannon Oelkers (19:04):
Well, that is some good news, Haley.
The MSGP allows forimprovements to infrastructure
or procedures that will allowyou to go from a SWPPP back to
no exposure.
The kicker here, though, isthat you have to show
documentable changes.
You know I love that worddocumentable.
Just saying you retrained yourstaff on housekeeping doesn't
usually cut it with the state orthe EPA.
(19:24):
They are usually looking foryou to install a roof, pave a
parking area, have it drained toa collection sump.
They want you to replace thedamaged container or install
dumpsters with lids if youdidn't have them before.
They want documentable things.
A big problem with keeping theno exposure certification is
that if you have a history ofreportable spills, like any
(19:45):
amount to water, any amount over10 gallons to land and more
than 55 gallons to yoursecondary containment, that's
considered an impact ofstormwater and you need to
obtain a SWPPP coverage untilyou can resolve whatever caused
that spill.
So under the MSGP, any sheen isan impact of stormwater and
that kicks you out of the noexposure status.
So it's difficult.
Haley Hall (20:05):
And is that why Integrity urges our clients to
carefully consider no exposurecertification?
Shannon Oelkers (20:09):
Yeah, In many ways it's a lot of work, almost
as much work as a SWPPP, and ifanything goes wrong you'll have
to get that SWPPP and in a hurry.
I'm not saying don't get one,but it's not a hall pass that
apparently everybody thinks itis, but we still have to work at
it and keep records and doroutine inspections and employee
training and show you'remaintaining compliance, and for
a lot of our clients, the SWPPPends up being easier for them to
(20:31):
meet the requirements and lessrisky for being assessed for
violations if they misssomething.
One other thing I'd like to add, Haley, is that a lot of people
don't realize that state andfederal regulators can, and
often do, inspect no exposurefacilities as well as the SWPPP
covered facilities, and so Ialso think there's this
misconception that if you get ano exposure, the state's never
going to come look you up.
(20:51):
No, they do.
They inspect no exposurefacilities just as much as they
do SWPPPs, and often, if you'rein the same community as a SWPPP
, they'll inspect you all at thesame time.
Haley Hall (21:00):
So, would you say that this is a key takeaway
Shannon, no exposurecertification is not a hall pass
?
Shannon Oelkers (21:10):
Yep, that's exactly right.
You're going to go the noexposure certification route.
We strongly recommend you do anaudit of your facility
infrastructure and of thestandard operating procedures
and take a hard look at whatyour ideal is and then what's
happening in reality at thatfacility before you commit to a
no exposure.
Haley Hall (21:21):
Is there anything else you want to say about
SWPPPs and no exposure, Shannon?
Shannon Oelkers (21:25):
Just one last thing.
If your industry is coveredunder the MSGP, you have to have
either a SWPPP or a no exposurecertification.
If you don't have either oneand your SIC code is listed in
Appendix D of the MSGP, you'renot compliant.
Call us, we can help with that.
When we do client onboarding weoften hear from clients that
(21:46):
they don't have a SWPPP becausethey feel that there's no
exposure.
But they never went andactually got the no exposure
certification.
You can't just say I don't haveany exposure, I don't need to
meet that.
You actually have to sign theattestation and then show that
you're meeting it.
So if you don't have that,that's full noncompliance right
there and that's going to betricky to navigate.
Haley Hall (22:05):
Well, that is good to note.
Thank you so much, Shannon.
I feel like I've learned somuch between last episode and
this episode.
Shannon Oelkers (22:11):
Yeah, thank you , Haley.
This was a good and timelytopic to cover.
It's also an easier one to fixif you're not right with.
I hope our listeners enjoyedthis run through and I would
point all of our listeners tothe free resources we posted
under the Keeping SWPPP Straightpodcast episode.
If they want to learn more, Ihave linked the no exposure
certification form to thisepisode and, as always, if you
need help sorting this out,Integrity is happy to help.
(22:33):
Just give us a call.
Haley Hall (22:34):
Thanks, Shannon.
Shannon Oelkers (22:36):
Hi there, this is Shannon Oelkers and, as the
owner of Integrity Environmental, I wanted to take a minute here
at the end of the podcast tomake sure that you knew the
following this podcast is forinformational purposes only and
should not be considered legalor regulatory advice.
We are not responsible for anylosses, damages or liabilities
that may arise from the use ofthis podcast.
(22:57):
This podcast is not intended toreplace professional regulatory
or legal advice.
Is not intended to replaceprofessional regulatory or legal
advice, and the views expressedin this podcast may not be
those of the host.
That would be me or IntegrityEnvironmental.
Thank you very much forlistening and if you do need
professional regulatory advice,we'd be happy to help you as
part of our consulting services.
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