November 4, 2024 • 63 mins
Join us on Tank Talk with Integrity Environmental as we dive into the inspiring journey of Michael O'Brien, a labor and employment lawyer from Davis Wright Tremaine in Fairbanks, Alaska. From Alaskan adventurer to employment law expert, Michael shares insights on the evolving labor landscape, including challenges in equitable overtime and the impact of generational shifts.
We discuss how the COVID-19 pandemic has transformed employment practices in Alaska, uncovering untapped opportunities in trade jobs within the emerging green economy. Michael highlights the vital role of unions like the Boilermakers Union in advancing careers in carbon capture and renewable energy.
Our conversation also covers the growing presence of women in traditionally male-dominated fields, the need for genuine diversity and inclusion efforts, and the importance of fostering a culture where employees feel safe voicing concerns. With a focus on enhancing science education and inspiring young people towards unconventional careers, this episode offers valuable insights into the current trends and challenges in Alaska's labor market for both employers and employees.
Resources:
Alaska Department Labor & Workforce Development - https://labor.alaska.gov/
United States Department of Labor - https://www.dol.gov/
Michael O'Brien's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-o-brien-704276102?
Photo Credits: Frank H. Nowell, 1904-1908, Nome, Alaska. Taken for the John J. Sessnon Electric Company. Displayed at the 1909 Alaska-Yukon Exposition held in Seattle, Washington to promote the progress of industry in Alaska.
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Episode Transcript
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Haley Hall (00:10):
Thank you for joining us.
You're listening to Tank Talkwith Integrity Environmental,
where we speak with founder,principal consultant and bulk
fuel storage expert ShannonOelkers, about regulations,
safety and useful tips forsmooth sailing through the bulk
fuel storage industry.
Come learn the unique joys ofworking life in Alaska with
industry experts, including ourteam, vendors we work with and
companies we support.
Shannon Oelkers (00:33):
Hello, welcome to Tank Talk.
This is Shannon, and today Ihave a guest, Michael O'Brien.
He is partner at Davis WrightTremaine and he's based out of
Fairbanks and I'm excited tohave him on the podcast today
because he is a labor andemployment lawyer and we're
excited to maybe ask a fewquestions related to that.
(00:55):
In our industries, a lot of theindustries we serve obviously
employ people and, Michael,thank you for coming on the show
to talk to us about this.
I really appreciate you beinghere.
Michael O'Brien (01:06):
Thanks so much for having me Looking forward to
talking.
Shannon Oelkers (01:09):
Yeah, I was hoping that you could introduce
yourself and maybe describe yourcurrent position and maybe
cover how you got to thatposition.
Michael O'Brien (01:17):
Sure, I've been in Alaska for about 27 years.
I came up here like a lot ofpeople just for adventure.
After college, no job, no lawdegree or law career in my
future Worked for park service,wrote for newspapers, worked in
restaurants sort of did it allas you do in Alaska at first.
(01:39):
And then I started my career inlaw and have, over the last 15
years, focused on labor andemployment law.
So employment law is compliancewith your employees hiring,
firing and all the acronyms ofthe ADA and the EEOC that an
employer runs into but alsolabor work.
(02:00):
So negotiating with unions,dealing with union grievances
and working with employers asthey interact with unions,
sometimes for the first time.
Shannon Oelkers (02:10):
What made you choose the law?
Michael O'Brien (02:12):
I was sort of backed into it.
I wasn't backed into it but Ididn't grow up wanting to be a
lawyer, but I was interested inenvironmental law at first.
Like I said, living in Alaska,you can't help but be sort of
knocked down by the naturalenvironment and that's what got
me interested in it.
But what really sort of kept mein it and what took me down
(02:36):
this path was the people ofAlaska like I got interested in.
I am interested in theirstories, I'm interested in
workplace challenges and all thethings that go on to help a
company thrive.
And it's easy to sort of nerdout helping companies through
that and that's really what anemployment lawyer does.
Shannon Oelkers (02:56):
That's the best how I became a lawyer story
I've ever heard.
You and I both share love forAlaska's people and a lot of the
industrial work.
I think that goes on in thestate.
There's really good stories andhistories that go along with
all of the industries we workwith.
Michael O'Brien (03:13):
Yeah, I'm fascinated by it.
And you look at something likeCOVID, which is now.
I just got over COVID, so it'snot so much in my rearview
mirror but it's societally inour rearview mirror.
Not so much in my rearviewmirror but it's societally in
our rearview mirror.
And that was one of thesemoments that forced every
industry to sort of do it tolook at.
They had to comply with thesenew laws and for employment
(03:34):
lawyers, it was how to figureout how to keep you know, we
couldn't shut down the NorthSlope, we couldn't shut down
fish processing plants, wecouldn't shut these places down
in those moments.
So we had to learn how theywork and learn how to make the
laws work for those industries.
So, yeah, I love parachutinginto some new world, new
(03:54):
industry and learning about howit works.
Shannon Oelkers (03:57):
So labor is an issue that looms large for
almost every industry that ourfirm works with.
I was wondering if you couldtalk about some trends that
you're seeing right now thatcould impact those industries.
Michael O'Brien (04:10):
Definitely, and my practice is both hyper-local
working with a single villageor a single municipality but
also national, so working withthe biggest companies in the
world on a national level.
So, and I think the interestingthing is that, whether you zoom
in or zoom out, the same issuesare plaguing or driving
(04:33):
employers nuts.
A great example in theorganized labor context is that,
just like five or six years agopre-COVID, five or six years
ago, pre-covid union contractswere about how do we equitably
distribute over time?
That was always a big issue.
Everybody wants overtime.
(04:53):
How do we make sure those extravaluable hours are distributed
in a way that is fair?
And that's what you spent a lotof time negotiating about.
Just five or six years later,we're 180 degrees from there and
a lot of union negotiation atthe bargaining table is who are
(05:15):
we going to force to take thoseovertime hours?
Who's going to have to do theextra work?
And I don't think people havegotten lazy.
That's not the takeaway there.
It's just that somethinghappened societally that instead
of everyone trying to work asmuch as possible, including all
that overtime, it's now agreater priority being put on
(05:38):
off work hours and the employerbeing in a position where okay,
if we have to have people workextra, how are we going to make
them do it or entice them to doit, which is not a place most
employers have ever been, atleast in a generation and, from
what I hear, many generations.
Shannon Oelkers (05:57):
I'm not surprised to hear that.
We have seen it on our side aswell, even in the non-union side
.
One of the things I had wantedto talk to you about was the
fact that the graying of thefleet is now turning into the
retiring of the fleet.
Do you think it's agenerational difference as well?
Michael O'Brien (06:13):
I do.
I do for sure, and there'sdefinitely a different
perception.
I definitely view myself asfirmly Gen X and I think as part
of that Gen X and older, wewere brought into the workforce
with a you need to earn yourstripes, like that sort of
euphemism was common.
(06:34):
You know, like suck it up, yourtime will come.
That sort of notion is not asprevalent in the new generation
that we see in the workplaceright now the millennial, gen Y,
millennial workforce.
It's much more like if I'mgiving you my time, I'm
deserving of sort of all thethings right now, and that's a
(06:54):
big difference.
And employers used to sort ofthere was a gradation of how
people were treated or benefitsthat were received that was tied
to time in service, time inoffice.
Those sorts of notions that youcan delay the delivery of those
benefits are gone.
It's probably too strong to saymillennials want it all now,
(07:16):
but I think that's sort of howthat generation and younger is
viewed and they also want to betrained really well.
Younger is viewed and they alsowant to be trained really well.
The sort of the rookie gettinginitiated or the rookie sort of
we didn't do it back in the oldday.
Those sort of notions are notvalued the way they once were,
and that may be a good thing,because it's more the
(07:40):
expectation that I have like afully paying, well-trained, safe
environment.
Now, and you're not sort ofexhausted and quote unquote,
earning it for some delayedbenefit, you're going to get
down the road.
Shannon Oelkers (07:55):
I think that follows frequent job changes too
.
I definitely have seen peoplenot staying in jobs for 30 or 40
years.
Right, they're going betweenjobs maybe every four to five
years, and I think there's nopoint in having delayed benefits
if you aren't going to be therein five years, right?
Michael O'Brien (08:13):
Yeah, and I think employers are going a
little bit nuts because theywant to give people the
opportunity to quote unquote,move up the ladder.
But when there's an expectationthat you start at the top to
quote unquote, move up theladder.
But when there's an expectationthat you start at the top of
the ladder, you have to rethinkthe ladder a little bit.
Shannon Oelkers (08:31):
Well and rethink the benefits, because a
lot of the standard benefitoptions do not result in better
recruitment.
Our firm learned that early on.
Michael O'Brien (08:40):
Yeah, and I'm depicting this in a way that's
negative towards these newemployees, but we didn't get
here by accident.
The move away from a pensionplan, for example, which very
few employers offer that wasthis really monolithic,
monumental way of building timeinto how the workplace operates.
(09:02):
People stayed for the 30th yearbecause that's when you got the
most benefits, and employers,for many, many reasons, shifted
to a defined contribution plan,which is, in essence, like a
take the money and run plan.
It doesn't value time, doesn'tput a priority on that.
So employees are basicallysaying two can play that game.
(09:26):
If you're not going to have asystem in place that rewards
longevity, like I'm not going tostick around.
Shannon Oelkers (09:41):
There's not a whole lot of us, and so I'm
seeing younger and youngerpeople filling jobs, just
because there's not as manypeople our age to fill it, and I
think that ties into the changein how these jobs are perceived
and how all of our employerseveryone who's listening to this
podcast needs to learn how torecruit for millennials and Gen
(10:02):
Y.
Michael O'Brien (10:03):
Right, because that's who you're going to hire
at this point, and definitely alabor shortage, especially in
Alaska.
You look, going back to mypension statement before, it's
not a driver directly forprivate employers, but getting
rid of the PERS system where youhad people staying in the state
(10:25):
for a long period of time underthe state system.
There's been like a trickledown of that.
People leave the state moreoften, the families.
If one family member is leaving, then everyone leaves.
So you look at in my field, theAlaska Bar Association, they
have an employment page.
Field, the Alaska BarAssociation, they have an
(10:48):
employment page On any given day.
Right now.
There are as many open positionsas there are people who pass
the bar, because we had thismassive pulse of people,
employees during the pipelineera.
They were boomer employees.
The last of those folks areretiring right now and they were
half the workforce and so webuilt infrastructures around
(11:09):
that, we built systems aroundthat number of people in the
workforce and they've just gonepoof.
They've gone poof for a coupleof reasons.
They retired, they're notworking anymore.
Not working anymore those thatwere working during COVID.
A lot of them just were like,yeah, it's not worth.
(11:31):
This is incredibly inconvenient.
Shannon Oelkers (11:32):
I'd rather just not work than do this.
We went from graying of thefleet to retiring of the fleet
in 2020.
Michael O'Brien (11:36):
Exactly.
And so as a state we've justhad this, and I use an example
from my field law.
But look at social workers,look at teachers, look at really
any field engineers and youjust see this demographic cliff,
with the last of those boomersretiring leaving the state,
(11:57):
stopping working, and there justhas not been the replacement
necessary.
You know, one person has cometo the state for every two or
three of those folks that haveretired.
So I think we have an openquestion If we needed those
people, which it seemed likethey all were working all those
years.
That's a big problem.
So I think for an Alaskan I'man Alaskan attorney, I'm
(12:19):
defensive of Alaska work.
You're an Alaska company, youwant Alaska companies doing it,
but it becomes tougher tocompete because more and more
outside firms will move in, justbecause there's not the
critical mass for Alaska firms,which is a real threat to our
economy.
Shannon Oelkers (12:38):
We're seeing migration out to.
You know, we have people thatwe've had as interns that go to
college in somewhere else andthen they don't come back to
Alaska.
So a lot of the futureemployees are also not
necessarily staying.
Michael O'Brien (12:53):
Yeah, for 20 years I've tried to hire and I
have hired for Alaska, andAlaska can be very sticky,
meaning people come here likemyself I'm not going anywhere.
You know I'll be buried inAlaska someday.
That's how sticky it is for me,but for a lot of people, if
(13:14):
you're weighing this, you knowit's not for everyone.
You have to really have apassion that Alaska allows for
it.
And then if you're someonewho's married, your partner has
to like it just as much as youdo, and there's a lot of factors
that are working against us.
Like, alaska is, in my mind,you know, the most amazing place
to live in the world, so that'sgood.
(13:35):
But more and more I get thesense that I'm in the minority.
You know it's not for everyone.
Like I acknowledge that.
Shannon Oelkers (13:43):
I just feel like the opportunity here,
Michael, is so big and I thinkthat people in the lower 48
don't necessarily see thatopportunity.
I mean, just the fact that Icould start a business from
nothing and become competitivewithin a few years is crazy.
Like everywhere else in thelower 48, there's dozens of
(14:04):
companies that are all doingsimilar things and lots of
competition.
Michael O'Brien (14:08):
I agree a thousand percent.
And I'll say I can't rememberwhich friend of mine said this,
but it's not my original idea.
But in reference to AlaskaNative corporations, people
really don't understand howsophisticated People really
don't understand howsophisticated, how big and how
meaningful their work is.
And this friend of mine saidsomeday there's going to be a
(14:32):
base built on Mars and an Alaskanative corporation is going to
build it.
And people who aresophisticated about government
contracting and that sort ofthing know how big a deal Alaska
native corps are.
What they're doing is soimpressive and so if you are in
that orbit, if you can do thatwork, help them, be a partner to
(14:53):
theirs.
The sky is literally the limitin Alaska.
Shannon Oelkers (14:58):
So we've talked about some of the impacts to
labor that we're seeing.
What does that mean for, like,our industry partners, like what
are you seeing utilities andbulk fuel companies?
And I mean like how are theychanging or adapting to this
changing workforce?
Michael O'Brien (15:15):
So often in that equation, like the union is
a partner for the utility world.
Those are all unionizedworkforces.
And one thing I think you'veseen more and more of across the
state is the way that you'dhave a national signing day
event for kids who are going toplay a sport in college.
(15:38):
Or you'd make a big deal abouta student who's going off to X,
y or Z college student who'sgoing off to X, y or Z college.
More and more you're seeinglike union signing days and
you're seeing kids moving fromhigh school to the trades and
I'm a liberal arts guy myselfbut you can do very, very well
(15:58):
especially compared to a liberalarts degree, which is what I
have going into the trades andsome unions have done a really
good job of that and they'vedone a great job of highlighting
what their union has to offer.
I still think there's atremendous opportunity there,
because a high school studentmay intuitively know I know what
(16:20):
an IBEW lineman is because Isee them on the side of the road
.
But, for example, theBoilermakers Union is doing some
really interesting work.
They're interested in carbonand carbon capture and there's a
huge future in that and it'sactually sort of the green
economy.
(16:40):
Are we doing enough topublicize that?
It's not just like hammeringnails or like building things.
It's actually being part oflike probably world historical
change in our economy and a lotof these trades whether it's
solar installation or carboninjection into an old well hole,
(17:02):
the trades are going to be partof that, and so we really have
to figure out how to capture theimagination of those 17 and 18
year olds.
Shannon Oelkers (17:12):
So I work primarily in bulk fuels,
although we do utilities as well, because they store a lot of
bulk fuel.
And we also do aviation andforgive the term, but the
sexiness of the job really doesplay a factor, like every little
kid who's six can imagine beingan aviation pilot, and making
the jump between that andfueling the airplane is pretty
easy.
But a whole lot of them don'tthink about a Boilermaker or a
(17:36):
Boilerman.
In the same ideology, and I dothink there's an opportunity
both on the union side and theprivate side to just make these
jobs more visible.
And I know in our podcast I'mtrying to show people how we get
to these places Because when Iwas growing up I wanted to be a
biologist.
I mean Exxon Valdez happenedwhen I was in fifth grade, right
(17:56):
.
So the entire industry ofenvironmental remediation and
response was being invented as Iwas growing up.
I mean it did exist prior toExxon, but as a national EPA
project.
Those are big changes in 89 and90 that impacted all the way
through.
So back to the visibility.
(18:17):
I think a lot of the peoplethat we work with when they're
recruiting for jobs right nowwhat I see is the people that
are most successful are alsorecruiting for future employees
by showing up to job fairs,talking at high schools,
supporting programs, so thatpeople can see that you can make
$100,000 driving a truck ormanaging a gas station.
(18:39):
You can make $100,000 in Alaskamanaging a gas station.
Yeah, that's good money.
Michael O'Brien (18:44):
There's so many things that I'm sure most
adults have this experiencewhere you're like if I'd only
known what that was, I mighthave studied that or I might
have done that.
And I'm absolutely fascinatedby, like, large industrial,
whether it's a power plant or adistribution center or anything
that's just really complex.
(19:05):
Where you have it's a bunch ofhard problems that you need to
solve.
And I was wandering around thisa client's large distribution
center, you know, and it hadtruck schedules and trains
involved and you know mechanicsto make sure all the conveyor
belts worked.
And I was asking the manager,like how do you find people who
(19:27):
want to run this place 24 hoursa day?
You know it's so complex andlike no one majors in that in
college.
He said, you know our best luckis zoology students because,
like they want to be zookeepersand in essence, a zoo is just a
supply chain.
Like poop has to go out, foodhas to go in, you know the
(19:50):
monkeys have to have bananas,the rhinoceroses have to have
hay 24 hours a day.
Like it can, you can't liketake three days off.
You know the poop will pile upand the monkeys will starve, you
know.
And like you have to sort ofhave someone who is like that's
a challenge I want to solve,yeah.
And the reality is, running adistribution center is the same
(20:13):
problem.
It pays a lot more, but workingat them and running at them
appeals to like the same mind,like you need the same mind to
do each of them.
And I just thought that wassuch a fascinating like someone
was really intentional andcreative.
When they're like, these arethe people we need to go after.
They think this is fun, youknow, and the question is like,
(20:36):
what is that for us?
And I feel like in Alaska thereare so many opportunities for
kids to be hands-on and dothings and something happens
because and I'm not blamingschool for this, but something
happens once they're like middleschool and older, when we start
teaching them the science ofthe things, that it sort of
(20:56):
drains the joy out of it forthem.
Shannon Oelkers (20:59):
Well, you and I could have a whole other
podcast on science education inAlaska.
It's a personal project of mineto improve scientific literacy
in Alaska.
But you're right, the joy getssucked out or the sense of
achievement.
And you know I work with peoplewho would, I think, be
considered blue collar workers.
But they're performing prettyhigh level science every day
(21:21):
hydraulics, fluid dynamics,pressure.
A lot of engineering goes intothose systems and they have to
have a good literal grasp ofwhat's going to happen, because
things really bad things happenif they don't.
And I do think that the hands onpiece is something that needs
to be part of jobs.
People learn by doing andcreating positions, with
(21:44):
mentoring or job shadowing orbeing able to let them try it
out as an intern before you goin.
And I do know for some of theindustries we work with the idea
of hiring an intern for thesummer.
It's there, they might run themarina and fuel up boats and
then that might be a way forthem to get into the fuel
industry.
But you can't do a summerinternship for truck driving,
(22:04):
for example, or fuel truckdriving, but there's other
avenues for that.
But I think what you and I aregetting at is, if you're
listening to this podcast andyou're younger, you should try
some of these interesting thingsthat you see while you're out
and about living your life andmaybe give them a thought,
because it's very difficult andcompetitive to get a job working
at a zoo and the pay is low,but you might be finding just as
(22:28):
much satisfaction at adistribution center and getting
paid triple and much lesscompetition and in fact, you can
go up the chain really fast,and I definitely.
I don't know if you've seenthis, michael, but when I
entered the workforce I waslooking at a 20 year slog to be
management and I think that hasbeen halved maybe eight to 10
years at this point.
Michael O'Brien (22:49):
Yeah, and people would much rather develop
, especially in Alaska, managersfrom within.
It's very hard to bring inleadership from the lower 48.
Is that?
Not only is the time requiredhalved to become a manager and
get to a certain, with all thepay and responsibility that
(23:09):
comes with that, but you comparenotes with people in the lower
48, if you are interested in afield, you've had four times the
experience they had, becausepeople are much more willing to
throw people into stuff.
In Alaska, you know to figureit out because we don't have the
luxury of layer upon layer ofexperienced employees.
Shannon Oel (23:34):
Microspecialization .
I only pull this lever.
Nobody does that in Alaska.
You got to do it from start tofinish and be there when the one
other person that does what youdo is taking a vacation.
You've got to do their stufftoo.
Michael O'Brien (23:45):
Yeah Well, and I think just I'm not sure which
there's a lot of like industrysupport alliances and things
like that.
One of the things I saw thisyear was there was a program
just to bring people up to theslope for a couple of weeks and
there's a thousand jobs up there.
Does any of this lookinteresting to you?
Whether it's sweeping the flooror running the rig or doing the
(24:09):
engineering, because that'ssort of the problem.
Alaska is amazing but we don'thave.
You may not see people in yourdaily life doing all these jobs,
so it's tough to visualizeyourself doing it.
So we need to.
I think internships are a greatway to do it.
The medical field in Alaska isjust plagued by this issue and I
(24:32):
know in Fairbanks, fmh has beenspending a lot of time bringing
in high school students forinterns and interns.
There's a reason not everyonehas interns.
They get underfoot, and that'sthe point.
They should be gettingunderfoot because they don't
(24:53):
know anything yet.
But getting folks turned on to,whether it's radiation
technology or nursing orpediatrics, you have to be that
aggressive in Alaska or elseyou're just going to run out of.
You're not going to have peopleto do the jobs.
So certain industries aregetting it, others I'm fearful
(25:13):
for because you look at the cost, you know, using that metaphor
of like a traveling nurse, yeah,or bring someone up for a year
or two from the lower 48, andthey don't work out the cost
involved in that turnover.
Shannon Oelkers (25:27):
Not just the cost to the company, but the
cost and trust to the community,the cost to the company for
having to train somebody toreplace that person.
Michael O'Brien (25:36):
There's so much that happens when you have the
wrong fit for that job to bringto the table just by having
lived up here, because in thatyear or two of bringing someone
up from the lower 48, there's alot of getting up to speed just
for Alaska that they have to do.
(25:57):
That is expensive as well.
Shannon Oelkers (26:00):
Just remote travel.
There's so many people on thisearth that are afraid to get
into a small plane, michael,which is something we do every
week at our firm.
Let's go, time to go.
It's an adventure, but to a lotof people that feels like an
extremely risky thing to do.
Michael O'Brien (26:17):
Yeah Well, and that's like the literal, the
nuts and bolts of travel.
The other thing that I've seen,the Alaskan workforce we sort
of all get along with each other, we know how to talk to each
other.
But if you take someone fromSeattle and fly them to a
village or somewhere off theroad system or even a smaller
(26:40):
community on the road system,there's a bit of culture shock
for them.
No matter how welcoming or notwelcoming the community is, just
they don't feel comfortable.
Welcoming or not welcoming thecommunity is just they don't
feel comfortable.
Like it's so different, it's sodifferent from anything else in
the lower 48 that a lot ofpeople are afraid to do that.
I've seen that in my careerover and over.
Like they're not comfortablegoing to village Alaska, to
(27:13):
rural Alaska and I'm suresomeone's done a study rural
Alaska is probably greatlyunderserved just because of that
one function.
Like people from the lower 48don't want to come here and so
they don't get that service.
Shannon Oelkers (27:20):
True, I mean we're seeing it with a lot of
the renewable energy.
It's very difficult to getpeople to come out and fix it.
I mean like to get the rightkind of engineer to come out and
do the work.
There's definite restrictionson who's available, although
that's getting a little betterin the last couple of years, but
10 years ago when the windmillwent out on St Paul Island.
(27:42):
It was out for a long timebecause there was just nobody to
come and fix it.
Michael O'Brien (27:47):
Yeah, I'm smiling because I had a client
who was dealing with a remotefacility and there were bears
there.
So we're talking about bearguards and who offers that
service?
And, like you, know what shouldyou?
How do you protect youremployees who have to work in
that remote environment?
And we got pretty far into theconversation about hiring these
(28:11):
bear guards.
And we got pretty far into theconversation about hiring these
bear guards and the client saidI just think it's amazing that
the bears are that well trainedthat they can guard the
employees.
They were thinking like aliteral guard, like a guard dog,
but not a guard bear Exactly,and I was thinking wow, like
we've been having two totallydifferent conversations.
(28:34):
In fact, they thought the bearwas good, that would be amazing
to have trained bears guard youremployees.
Shannon Oelkers (28:42):
I now want a trained bear with Integrity logo
, tactical gear on.
That would be amazing.
Michael O'Brien (28:47):
Absolutely To guard your employees in a remote
location.
But just wow like there was alot of disconnect at that moment
.
Shannon Oelkers (28:56):
Yes, our firm has done quite a bit too.
We also struggle with Alaskanswho are urban.
You know, maybe from theAnchorage or Mat-Su area.
They definitely have exposureto rural Alaska, but not intense
exposure.
I mean, I myself am probablyone of the most well-traveled
(29:19):
Alaskans that I know within thestate and then our firm travels
pretty frequently to ruralAlaska and we definitely have
added trainings and companyculture moments and a lot of
things that sort of buildpeople's ability to do better in
rural Alaska.
And I know some companies do andsome companies don't.
But I personally feel like youhave a better chance of success
if you're giving people heads upon things like something simple
(29:42):
, like shaking hands and takingyour glove off and shaking skin
to skin, like that's a bigmanners piece that many people
miss if they just didn't grow updoing it that way.
Or taking your sunglasses offwhen you talk to somebody
important so you can look atthem eye to eye and that's all
in our handbook.
You know we have like.
You know like we have thingsabout like how you interact and
(30:04):
if you are working with a gasstation, you buy your gas there,
like we call it old fashionedmanners, but it's also ways of
doing things in rural Alaskawhere people are more
interdependent, and those thingsare really important.
Michael O'Brien (30:16):
Yeah, and I don't think you realize I mean a
lot of it is this accrual oflearned habits over many years
and Alaska employers.
If you're working in ruralAlaska, finding people who have
all of that is very, very hard,and I would say the key then is
to start employing more peoplefrom rural Alaska because they
(30:38):
have all those skills.
But I was reminded of that acouple of weeks ago.
I had family in town and afriend of mine with a plane
decided to take myself and arelative out flying and we
landed in a village off the roadsystem and my father was
walking around and sort of likea tourist, like taking pictures
(30:59):
of like everything, and I said,look, don't do that.
You know that's.
You know he was like justreally fascinated but it's not a
tourist attraction, it's theirfront porch.
Right, exactly, and it sort ofvery quickly makes people feel
other or less than when you dothat and it's really easy for
(31:22):
all.
Of you know, no one's perfectin this world.
Shannon Oelkers (31:26):
Oh, I struggle with that.
You know how many photos I take.
I definitely have to be like isthis an okay one?
I don't know, maybe, maybe.
Fortunately, I work in a lot ofindustrial areas, so it's not
somebody's house.
But yes, you're right, there'sjust that piece of it One of the
things I wanted to talk about,because I do think this is
changing a little bit.
You and I both work in sometraditionally male-dominated
(31:49):
industries and I personally amseeing more women enter these
areas.
My firm is actually part ofthat.
A lot of our employees rightnow we're all women, but we have
had men work with us before.
We're not exclusive.
I get asked that a lot.
Michael O'Brien (32:07):
As an employment lawyer, I tell you
that's probably a bad idea to beexclusive one gender.
Shannon Oelkers (32:13):
No, it's illegal to hire only women, but
our firm has benefits that doappeal to women, especially in
the professions that we are in,and so I would argue that it's
no different than an engineeringfirm having mostly men, because
how they're structured and thebenefits they offer and the
career that they offer appeal toa dude engineer.
(32:35):
But yes, we do.
We do get asked that all thetime, and I do think my firm's
doing our best to be the littlelight right, but we do see more
women enter, but I don't knowthat they're staying, and so I
was curious if you had trends ordata that you've come across
that shows more women entering,or some of these.
I mean literally, in some ofthese industries it's like 99%
(32:57):
men and 1% women.
I don't know.
Have you seen things changingin the last couple of years or
recently?
Michael O'Brien (33:03):
Yeah, I don't have data on that, but I do see
more and more women intraditionally male-dominated
spaces, you know whether that'sthe slope or just industrial
settings in general.
You know, and I will say goodon millennials and Gen Y here,
because I think with Gen X wemight have been the first.
(33:26):
I think boomers sort of brokethrough the barriers on this
issue.
But a lot of what I saw in mycareer early on was like talk
about diversity and equity.
There were posters, there wastraining, and I give those
trainings and training isimportant to set the tone and to
(33:48):
establish what the culture is,to set the tone and to establish
what the culture is.
But really good on millennialsand Gen Y, because like they are
not satisfied with the postersand like the platitudes and like
talking it up, like they demandaction.
You know it's fair to saythey're more of an activist
generation than Gen X.
(34:08):
You know, like not in theparade sense of activism but in
the like we demand real results.
And so I think that more thananything like no, I'm not going
to be satisfied with justtalking about it, I want to see
the company change its behavioron this thing.
Shannon Oelkers (34:28):
Or choosing to work at a company that has those
things in place and has adiverse workforce already.
Michael O'Brien (34:33):
Yeah, and what I always tell employers and I do
a lot of training on this isit's not a good place for an
employer to be to think, well,we haven't gotten sued this year
.
No EEOC complaints Like we mustbe great because you can be in
that status and still have lowmorale.
You're good employees.
(34:54):
You know the ones you're tryingto attract.
They're not going to sue younecessarily.
Like they leave sooner than youwish they would.
The quiet quitting, yes, yeah,there's all those sort of
attrition factors.
You know why does this companyjust stay male?
Why is it stagnating?
It's probably because you'renot doing enough A lot of these
(35:16):
things we're talking about.
It's about real action andpeople.
Again, it's not the poster.
It's like do I have a mentorwho actually gets my situation
and understands what I need inthe workforce and not just sort
of begrudgingly, lets me take my12 weeks of FMLA when I have a
(35:38):
child.
And I'll say this my own bosswhen I had a child was like take
as much time as you need.
We are super excited for you.
I felt like a thousand percentsupport in that setting and
that's what employees arelooking for now.
It's not just like okay, here'sthe HR form, because 12 weeks
(35:58):
later, after your FMLA is done,you still have a child.
That's how that works and theyhave all sorts of needs and it's
taxing.
And one thing I see is astaxing as that is when you're a
young parent.
We're now on the other end ofthat equation and now it's our
(36:19):
own parents we have to starttaking care of, and especially
when workforces are smaller tobegin with, and Gen X is sort of
the leader in the workforce nowif we need to take time off,
sort of the leader in theworkforce now If we need to take
time off, do we work in aworkplace that's going to be
like, yeah, like we get it.
Like all humans have, they haveparents.
You know, most humans have kids, and like it's part of that
(36:43):
being human and that's the shiftin the workplace.
Like the workplace isn'teverything.
Life is everything and theworkplace is sort of what people
do.
Part of the day Is that sort ofthe new view and the workplace
who, yes, we're going to supportyou through all these life
events.
They're going to have free andso I'm past the age of using
(37:15):
daycare benefits or anythinglike that, and I'm sure, however
much it costs my firm they'vegotten their money's worth in
(37:35):
marketing of me telling everyoneI run into, because if you're
in your 40s or 50s as a parentyou're sort of like deep in this
college hunt- and it's aloyalty right, like you're not
looking for another job rightnow.
Shannon Oelkers (37:49):
You feel happy, right.
That's a huge piece ofretaining employees is having
benefits that matter to them,not what you think they want,
and that was something I had tolearn early on because I was Gen
X and things that I thoughtwould matter.
There's differences, andchanging how we offered those
benefits was really beneficialto my firm.
But I do feel for some of ouremployers, though, because
(38:12):
they've got a labor shortage andthen they've got a labor force
that wants lots of flexibilityand lots of time to do their own
thing and take care of family,and I know especially some of
our skilled trades where there'snot really remote work
flexibility, like you have to bethere operating the machine or
the warehouse or the whatever.
How do you see some of thoseemployers adapting and
(38:36):
attracting employees?
Michael O'Brien (38:38):
Yeah, great question.
You hit the nail on the headand it sort of goes back to what
I said earlier about theovertime issue is that time is
seen as wealth.
Now, it's not.
Can I work as much as I can toaccumulate wealth?
It's how do I have time tomyself?
That's what makes me feel valueand obviously, if the work has
(39:02):
to be done in real time in areal space, someone's got to be
there.
But being really creative abouthow can I schedule people so
that they have chunks of timeoff, I think it's a fool's
errand.
I see a lot of employers doingit, getting in an arms race over
pay.
You know, oh, we'll match thispay, we'll match that pay.
(39:25):
The reality is that that timeis more valuable.
That time is more valuable andwhether it's working eight
months on, four off, havingthose options for employees like
a very flexible schedule whenyou do have to be there is very
attractive.
Shannon Oelkers (39:42):
We've seen a couple of different remote work
industries start adopting atwo-on-two-off schedule, like
the slope, so that people canlive where they want to live,
which is like Wasilla withbetter schools, right, or
sometimes even Fairbanks withbetter schools, but they can
work, do this skilled labor, inmore remote locations and so
(40:04):
they can fill those jobs.
There's definitely some chatterabout you know, are you taking
a local job?
But I can tell you right nowtwo years of a job opening in a
remote location and no one'sapplied and no one's qualified
and no one's going to do it.
That two on two off schedulehas been very appealing and I've
seen that work really well forsome of our clients.
(40:25):
They just had to shift fromyou've got to move to this
location and operate this tankfarm to why don't you go out and
do it two weeks and thensomeone else will come in and
relieve you and give you thattime that you want to go fishing
and hunting and hanging outwith your family.
Michael O'Brien (40:40):
And I think that speaks to this broader
trend, which is not that we'reworking in the gig economy, but
sort of the premise of the gigeconomy is you could do it on
your time, where you want, whenyou want, and that isn't how
these jobs work, but it's sortof it's on that spectrum of I
want more flexibility, I'll bethere and I'll be there 100
(41:03):
percent when I'm on site, butthe rest of the time, in essence
, why should the employerdetermine where my kids go to
school?
Is what you're saying.
Shannon Oelkers (41:13):
So, Michael, you previously mentioned
training and that's kind ofwoven throughout.
What we've talked about is thatthere's this expectation of
training.
Many of our regulations andpermits that we write to meet
those require multipleoverlapping layers of training.
This includes things liketechnical certifications, like
(41:33):
sort of specific training likeHaswopper, and then there's like
on-the-job experientialtraining.
Could you talk to us about whatrole employer-provided training
plays in successful employment,Because these jobs do have a
lot of responsibilities.
Michael O'Brien (41:51):
Yeah, really interesting question, and I
think COVID for a little whileforced everything to go online.
There's been online or virtualtrainings for quite a while and
we had a moment to think of well, what if all of this was going
to be training, you know, couldit be online training?
And I think the takeaways aremixed.
(42:11):
For some things, online hasbeen just as good, in fact.
Whether it's a recordedtraining or it's sort of just a
training through a Teams channel, it can be very good.
But the question is likeengagement, like that's the key
with any training.
If I'm desperate to learnsomething, if it's an online
(42:33):
training that's pre-recorded,I'm going to learn it because I
really want to know it.
But if it's something I'm lessengaged in, I don't think it
matters if it's an onlinetraining, recorded, or even if
it's in person.
If I'm not engaged, it's justgoing to sort of go over my head
.
So I think the levels oftraining have gone up, meaning
(42:56):
you can get much better onlinetraining now than you could a
few years ago and there's almostan overtraining.
Because so much of it is online, people don't mind requiring
even more training.
Shannon Oelkers (43:05):
Well, what we see is that there's trainings
that check a box, and thenthere's trainings that teach you
how to do the thing you'resupposed to be doing, and those
two are not necessarily the same.
Michael O'Brien (43:15):
They're not the same at all and I feel like if
you really want to change mindsor change behavior or like
introduce a new skill, there'sno substitute for hands on.
You have to really sort of workthrough the problem yourself,
sort of work through the problemyourself.
Have the thing in your hands,whether it's a regulation, a
(43:39):
tool, an experience or a problem, you have to really work
through it.
In the end.
That's like where all educationreally lies.
It's like giving someone that,and sometimes you give them the
basics through training and thenthey really learn it on the job
.
But if we're expecting them toreally learn it through training
, it's just got to be excellent.
Shannon Oelkers (43:55):
We talk to employers a lot about having a
training program that goesbeyond check boxes, because you
know, I do a lot of adultdevelopment in my job and
there's a lot of research thatshows that somebody needs to
interact with a new idea orsomething that you need to learn
that's important at least seventimes and in multiple different
(44:18):
learning pathways.
And so I think a lot ofemployers, when they want to
retain employees, they providetraining programs, but then the
employees are like I didn't getany training and it's because
they had one video the firstweek they were hired and then
that particular skill orresponsibility was never touched
upon again and just like ourrecord keeping recommendations,
(44:39):
you've got to like train themonce, train them again, do a
refresher, have an easyreference guide, have a
highlight day where you bring itback up again.
And I do see this corporatepush to have checkbox trainings.
But I think that's the start,that's where you bring it back
up again.
And I do see this corporatepush to have checkbox trainings.
But I think that's the start,that's where you start.
But then there needs to beother things on the job and
woven into the work environmentto create an atmosphere where
(45:01):
they're going to pick it up allthose times and retain it.
Michael O'Brien (45:05):
Yeah, I advise clients, so there's compliance,
there's like keeping the companyout of jail, you know, and
there's probably some amount oftraining that checks that box
you know that says okay, weprovided everyone this training.
Like, you have to check that boxagain.
That's like to keep us out ofthe jail category.
That's not the aspirational.
(45:27):
Like, okay, how do we changeour culture?
How do we achieve great newthings?
A checkbox training is notgoing to do that.
It's the seven different waysthat you're talking about.
So companies are allowed tohave both goals.
You got to stay out of jail.
Shannon Oelkers (45:43):
Yes, that's the beginning, that's where you
start.
You have to have the stay outof jail training.
Michael O'Brien (45:47):
Yes, but no company ever got great with that
as their goal Agreed.
To really change people and toachieve those new things, you've
got to be really work investingin people.
And I think Gen Y, millennialsthey're sort of calling us out
on that.
You know, like we expect, likewe're not going to play along,
(46:10):
that we're trained after thatone video like we want the real,
like in essence investment youknow.
And again, shame on us, gen x,for not, we just sort of like oh
yeah, I guess that wassufficient.
I have no idea what I'm doingwell, it comes down to cost too.
Shannon Oelkers (46:26):
It costs more.
It does cost more to keephitting, but I would argue that
a lot of people in themanagement role terminal manager
, plant manager, operations lead.
There are ways for them thatare pretty low cost to keep.
Coming back to stuff that'scritical, and I do think you
have to put in a little bit ofwork to understand what's
(46:47):
critical, like what training isreally important to not mess up,
and what I see with, like inthe bulk fuels industry.
For example, they get a lot oftraining on how to load and
unload a tank truck because it'shigh risk and they do it every
single day.
So they get a lot ofreinforcement.
They don't get nearly thatlevel of training on I don't
know emergency response andspill response.
(47:08):
They might do that once ortwice a year.
Right and granted, hopefullyyou're not going to be doing
spill response every single day,but we see when they actually
have a spill that there's thattraining gap because they've got
all this reinforcement on thisone area that's considered
really critical but not another,even though they've had minimum
trainings, they've had reviews.
(47:29):
It just doesn't stick yeah, itis rare.
Michael O'Brien (47:32):
You know we're talking about how hard it is to
fill jobs and fill positions,but sort of shout out to the
good managers of alaska, becausethose are very hard to find
being a leader it's a hugeretention tool, because who you
work for is important as well,right?
Right.
Being a leader is very, veryhard.
(47:55):
Being a manager not quite ashard, still hard.
But being a leader and reallysetting the tone and juggling
all of these things, includinginvesting in your employees
personally and making them feellike they're important in the
workplace there's not enoughhours in the day for all that,
so it's quite hard.
(48:15):
So it's not just like employersare asleep at the wheel, but
it's all.
These positions are hard tofind and sort of the managers
who drive it are.
It takes time to develop them.
Shannon Oelkers (48:26):
It does.
It does take time to developthem and develop their own
understanding of what they'rerequired to do, because if they
didn't get good training whenthey started, they're going to
have gaps in knowledge too whenthey get to that management tier
.
Michael O'Brien (48:38):
Yeah, well, unfortunately, like you said,
the thing that you didn't trainon it doesn't happen all that
often, so it's almost like it'sa self-fulfilling prophecy, like
, well, I guess it's not thatimportant because it didn't
happen again.
It's wrong, because when it isimportant, it just doesn't
happen all that often.
You talked about the ExxonValdez is probably maybe the
(49:02):
world historical best example ofthat.
It doesn't happen very oftenbut, boy, when it does, you want
everyone to be trained, andAlaska's, since then, done a
good job of taking thatseriously.
Shannon Oelkers (49:15):
You know an example from that catastrophe I
use the most.
They had spill responseequipment but it was buried
under eight feet snow eight footsnow drifts and they had to get
equipment to dig out thoseconnexes to be able to get into
them, and that did delay.
And so something as simple askeeping the snow blowed away
from the front of your spillconnex is important.
(49:37):
It's part of your regulargroundskeeping and maintenance
and it's easy to skip becauseyou don't want to stay that
extra 15 minutes because youalready plowed the whole road
right, but in the event of anemergency you do need it, and so
that's the one I use the mostfrom the Exxon Valdez.
Yeah, yeah, that one thingfogged it up right at the
(49:58):
beginning.
Michael O'Brien (49:59):
And you need to have a culture where, if the
snow gets piled up, where peoplefeel safe, saying hey, that's
not right or you know, that'snot supposed to be that way.
Shannon Oelkers (50:10):
Or heard Right Like they say it and somebody's
like you're right, not.
Michael O'Brien (50:15):
Right or they're retaliated against for
being some sort of sticklergoody two shoes.
You know, if you have that sortof culture, you could have the
most elaborate complianceprogram in the world and it
won't do you any good.
So that's a lot of what I workon is sort of what is the
culture in a company and does itembrace people bringing those
(50:38):
things up?
It's sort of the biggestchallenge.
There is a lot of times whenyou have that culture, people
will get it wrong.
They'll think something isblocked or they'll think, oh,
this isn't safe In fact it isand the company will sort of
come down on them in that moment.
And that's not good either,because it suggests you have to
(50:58):
be 100% right to bring up aquestion.
And most of us don't go throughlife feeling like we know
everything and we have it 100%right.
And so even when a personraises something that actually
isn't a problem, sort ofcelebrating that like wow,
that's great.
Shannon Oelkers (51:16):
It's a training opportunity too, right.
Michael O'Brien (51:19):
Yeah, like we so value your employee of the
week, even though you like sortof made us do this literal or
figurative fire drill.
Yeah, have made us do thisliteral or figurative fire drill
yeah, because you could have asort of not optimal compliance
program.
But if everyone has acompliance mindset, that's going
to fill in a lot of the gaps.
Shannon Oelkers (51:40):
Yeah, I really like the point you made that you
can have the most optimalcompliance program in the world,
but if the culture doesn'tallow its employees to operate
within it and safely call thingsout, you're right, that
definitely is a huge factor inactually achieving compliance.
Yeah, michael, thank you foryour time today.
Is there anything else youwould like to bring up related
(52:03):
to labor or the industries wework with, and do you have any
resources that you wouldrecommend for someone who's
listened to us?
Michael O'Brien (52:10):
I'm a big LinkedIn person and, for me,
getting involved online indifferent industry groups and
seeing what's sort of cuttingedge, whether it's in the travel
industry the travel industrymay seem very different from the
bulk fuel industry, buteverything that we talked about
today would apply to thatindustry, would apply to
(52:31):
hospitality, would apply tofishing.
You know everyone's facing sortof this change in the workplace
and these new expectations inthe workplace.
You know I use that story ofthe zookeeper and changing
mentality.
Like who do we need to go after?
Mentality like who do we needto go after?
(52:53):
Like what mindset solves theseproblems?
And seeing how other industriesare doing.
It is really fascinating.
Like I have learned a lot justby reading wonky sort of
industry newsletters talkingabout how they're solving these
problems and how they're goingto pivot, and maybe they've
already figured something outthat you're trying to work on.
So that's what I'm on, becauseI'm always trying to sort of
look over the horizon and seelike, okay, I'm a huge advocate
(53:16):
for Alaska, I know you are too.
How do we turn the corner anddo something new, because a lot
of the old things aren't goingto be there anymore?
Shannon Oelkers (53:27):
They sure aren't Okay.
So look to groups in yourindustry.
Sign up for free newsletters,sign up to actually be members
of those groups on things likeLinkedIn, Facebook.
Some of them are even onInstagram now, although less so.
Depends on the industry, Okay.
And then what about things likelegalities and labor law?
(53:48):
I'm guessing the state ofAlaska and the federal
government have good resourcesfor things like that as well.
Michael O'Brien (53:53):
As far as like checking that compliance box,
yeah, it's like a lot of thingsin life.
The biggest mistake people cometo me with is ignoring some
problem and they're like youknow, we've been doing this
wrong for 10 years or 15 years.
They're like you know, we'vebeen doing this wrong for 10
(54:14):
years or 15 years and it gotcaught in an audit or it got
caught Like in my experience.
That's probably true of many,many things in life.
But in the legal world, youknow, things compound, there's
trouble, damages Alaska.
We are really lucky on laborstuff, you know.
So wage an hour, just a bit ofa shout out to the Alaska
Department of Labor.
You can just call them up andsay hey, like a lot of times I
(54:37):
do it anonymously at first andsay I'm not going to tell you
this client, but how can wesolve this problem?
Like everyone you know, theproblems we've been talking
about plague the government aswell.
They're not looking to comedown on companies and, like you
know, you see things in the newsthat they're going to do some
massive fine.
Generally speaking, thoseagencies want people just to get
(55:00):
in compliance.
So I'm really comfortablecalling up a variety of state
agencies and say let's solvethis problem together.
Like this person just realizedit.
They just called me.
They want to get in complianceso, as opposed to other states
like that is not the case, don'ttry that in California.
Shannon Oelkers (55:20):
No, don't try anything in California.
Michael O'Brien (55:23):
But in Alaska you really can solve the problem
through some phone calls andlike people have a very sincere
interest in having companieswork and employ people and
succeed.
They don't want people to beabused no one does.
But a very easy example ispeople don't realize that you
(55:45):
have to pay overtime over eighthours.
If you work over eight hours inAlaska, they just think it's
over 40 hours in a week but it'sactually eight hours in a day.
A lot of companies get thatwrong for a long time because
they just don't know it.
Similarly, they treat employeesas independent contractors when
they should really be employeesand there's a real dollar value
(56:09):
for that mistake for employees.
So it's not that it may notcost you anything.
It probably will cost yousomething, but it's a problem
that can be fixed and that's alot of my day is just working
with other people here in thestate.
Okay, how do we solve thisproblem To keep everyone's
interested in keeping businesses?
Shannon Oelkers (56:30):
keep it on solve this problem to keep
everyone's interested in keepingbusinesses keep it on.
What are your thoughts abouthaving a proactive relationship
with?
A labor and employment lawyerand finding those mistakes
before they crop up in an audit.
Michael O'Brien (56:39):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's.
You know, most people don'tneed like an in-house counsel,
but even in our conversation,like I could give you 10
questions Do you pay all youremployees as independent
contractors?
That's probably a problem.
You know, like there's sort ofa greatest hits list that if
(56:59):
you're doing all these thingsit's not because people are evil
, it's because companies startsmall and informal and a lot of
this seems intuitive, it seemsreasonable.
You know, for example, insteadof giving overtime after eight
hours, giving people flex timePeople love that.
It's illegal.
Shannon Oelkers (57:21):
Yes, yes.
Michael O'Brien (57:22):
But there's a way to do it legally.
There is a way to flexible workplan in the state of Alaska
will allow for it.
So there's sort of a greatesthits of mistakes people make as
they grow from, like, workingout of the basement to owning an
office and having a lot ofemployees.
You know withholding it, youknow it can be complex, but most
(57:43):
of them are, like, very easilysolved.
Shannon Oelkers (57:46):
So maybe checking in a different growth
stages of your business ishelpful as well, In addition to
like finding out where you arenow being aware that if you're a
company and you're growing,you're probably going to have
additional things you got to hitas you grow.
Michael O'Brien (57:59):
Right, exactly, and there are different.
You know certain laws, like theAmerican Disabilities Act,
family Medical Leave Act theykick in at, like, say, 50
employees or 15 employees.
So there's a lot of this stuff.
You just don't need to worryabout when you're very small,
but then you need to startworrying about it in a major way
(58:19):
once you get to a certaincritical mass.
Shannon Oelkers (58:23):
That is super helpful.
I actually took some noteswhile you were chatting for my
own self.
Before you go, though, Michael,I wanted to say thank you for
coming on here and speaking sobroadly and sharing your
enthusiasm and love for Alaska,and I wanted to just end our
conversation today.
You and I both share a love ofold machinery.
(58:44):
That's how we became friends onLinkedIn, because I was posting
strange machines which I wishyou would do more of.
I'm trying.
I'm trying.
The first time we actuallytalked about this, I posted a
photo from 1909, and I will postthis in our show notes.
It's a photo of a wooden oiltank and it's being pulled by
this massive horse team acrossthe snow and it's for the John J
(59:07):
Sessnan Electric Company lightplant in Nome, Alaska.
And, just as a sidebar, Ireally love the thought of
horse-powered oil tanks Likethat.
Just the irony delights me.
But you and I were talkingabout that photo because I was
interested in the tank, but youhad a story and a tie-in to the
sledge that the tank was sittingon, that the horses were
(59:29):
pulling.
Yes, Tell me about the sledgethat the tank was sitting on
that the horses were pulling.
Yes, Tell me about the sledge.
Michael O'Brien (59:33):
Yeah.
So I also love old stuff inAlaska, which, if you love old
stuff, alaska is the place to be, because, a there's a lot of it
and B no one can afford to getrid of it, so it tends to just
sit wherever it was last used.
And I had the great fortune ofa friend who lives in Fort Yukon
(59:54):
and does logging and he foundin their dump not one but two of
those giant sleds and I wasjust mesmerized by this thing.
You know, you can imagine atelephone pole size log.
It could hold about 25 of those.
He pulled it with a bulldozer,not with horses, and I was
watching him use this thing andI was like where did this come
(01:00:16):
from?
It has links and chains.
The chains have five poundlinks.
I mean, these are huge, hugechains.
And the only sort of marking onthe sled was Fond du Lac,
wisconsin.
And so I was like well, that'sall I need.
And I wrote an email to the Fonddu Lac Historical Society and
(01:00:38):
they knew all about these giantsleds and they'd been produced
there for the California SilverRush, these giant sleds.
So I forget what year that was,but maybe it's like the 49ers.
That's why it's like the SanFrancisco 49ers.
Anyway, they were built to getover the Sierras to bring mining
(01:00:58):
equipment to these mines andthey're indestructible.
They're massive oak timbers andthey just sort of followed one
boom after another so they keptusing them to haul anywhere
there was snow.
And this one in particular hadbeen used on the Cannell Road in
Canada to the oil fields thereand they were used to make the
(01:01:22):
dew lines like the direct earlywarning military sites to pull
stuff around there, and I thinkthat's probably how it got to
Fort Yukon, to the Air ForceBase there.
Shannon Oelkers (01:01:34):
Oh, through the dew lines.
Huh, that's fascinating.
Michael O'Brien (01:01:37):
And the interesting.
So you have this 100-year-oldor older sled.
It's still better than anythingyou could buy.
People figured things out atsome point sometimes and that's
like best in class, and sosometimes you just we still have
the benefit of those things inAlaska sometimes that are still
in use here because we can'tafford to get rid of them.
Shannon Oelkers (01:02:00):
All right.
Well, thank you, Michael.
I appreciate your time today.
Thank you so much for sharingso much of your knowledge and
your experience with ourlisteners.
I really appreciate it.
Haley Hall (01:02:11):
Thank you for tuning into Tank Talk with Integrity
Environmental.
For additional information,please visit our website www.
integrity-env.
com.
Interested in becoming a gueston Tank Talk or have a topic
you'd like to learn more about?
Send an email to marketing@integrity-env.
com.
(01:02:33):
Until next time,
Shannon Oelkers (01:02:36):
Hi there, this is Shannon Oelkers and, as the
owner of Integrity Environmental, I wanted to take a minute here
at the end of the podcast tomake sure that you knew the
following this podcast is forinformational purposes only and
should not be considered legalor regulatory advice.
We are not responsible for anylosses, damages or liabilities
that may arise from the use ofthis podcast.
(01:02:57):
This podcast is not intended toreplace professional regulatory
or legal advice, and the viewsexpressed in this podcast may
not be those of the host thatwould be me or Integrity
Environmental.
Thank you very much forlistening and if you do need
professional regulatory advice,we'd be happy to help you as
part of our consulting services.
Thank you for joining us.
You're listening to Tank Talkwith Integrity Environmental,
where we speak with founder,principal consultant and bulk
fuel storage expert ShannonOelkers, about regulations,
safety and useful tips forsmooth sailing through the bulk
fuel storage industry.
Come learn the unique joys ofworking life in Alaska with
industry experts, including ourteam, vendors we work with and
companies we support.
Shannon Oelkers (00:33):
Hello, welcome to Tank Talk.
This is Shannon, and today Ihave a guest, Michael O'Brien.
He is partner at Davis WrightTremaine and he's based out of
Fairbanks and I'm excited tohave him on the podcast today
because he is a labor andemployment lawyer and we're
excited to maybe ask a fewquestions related to that.
(00:55):
In our industries, a lot of theindustries we serve obviously
employ people and, Michael,thank you for coming on the show
to talk to us about this.
I really appreciate you beinghere.
Michael O'Brien (01:06):
Thanks so much for having me Looking forward to
talking.
Shannon Oelkers (01:09):
Yeah, I was hoping that you could introduce
yourself and maybe describe yourcurrent position and maybe
cover how you got to thatposition.
Michael O'Brien (01:17):
Sure, I've been in Alaska for about 27 years.
I came up here like a lot ofpeople just for adventure.
After college, no job, no lawdegree or law career in my
future Worked for park service,wrote for newspapers, worked in
restaurants sort of did it allas you do in Alaska at first.
(01:39):
And then I started my career inlaw and have, over the last 15
years, focused on labor andemployment law.
So employment law is compliancewith your employees hiring,
firing and all the acronyms ofthe ADA and the EEOC that an
employer runs into but alsolabor work.
(02:00):
So negotiating with unions,dealing with union grievances
and working with employers asthey interact with unions,
sometimes for the first time.
Shannon Oelkers (02:10):
What made you choose the law?
Michael O'Brien (02:12):
I was sort of backed into it.
I wasn't backed into it but Ididn't grow up wanting to be a
lawyer, but I was interested inenvironmental law at first.
Like I said, living in Alaska,you can't help but be sort of
knocked down by the naturalenvironment and that's what got
me interested in it.
But what really sort of kept mein it and what took me down
(02:36):
this path was the people ofAlaska like I got interested in.
I am interested in theirstories, I'm interested in
workplace challenges and all thethings that go on to help a
company thrive.
And it's easy to sort of nerdout helping companies through
that and that's really what anemployment lawyer does.
Shannon Oelkers (02:56):
That's the best how I became a lawyer story
I've ever heard.
You and I both share love forAlaska's people and a lot of the
industrial work.
I think that goes on in thestate.
There's really good stories andhistories that go along with
all of the industries we workwith.
Michael O'Brien (03:13):
Yeah, I'm fascinated by it.
And you look at something likeCOVID, which is now.
I just got over COVID, so it'snot so much in my rearview
mirror but it's societally inour rearview mirror.
Not so much in my rearviewmirror but it's societally in
our rearview mirror.
And that was one of thesemoments that forced every
industry to sort of do it tolook at.
They had to comply with thesenew laws and for employment
(03:34):
lawyers, it was how to figureout how to keep you know, we
couldn't shut down the NorthSlope, we couldn't shut down
fish processing plants, wecouldn't shut these places down
in those moments.
So we had to learn how theywork and learn how to make the
laws work for those industries.
So, yeah, I love parachutinginto some new world, new
(03:54):
industry and learning about howit works.
Shannon Oelkers (03:57):
So labor is an issue that looms large for
almost every industry that ourfirm works with.
I was wondering if you couldtalk about some trends that
you're seeing right now thatcould impact those industries.
Michael O'Brien (04:10):
Definitely, and my practice is both hyper-local
working with a single villageor a single municipality but
also national, so working withthe biggest companies in the
world on a national level.
So, and I think the interestingthing is that, whether you zoom
in or zoom out, the same issuesare plaguing or driving
(04:33):
employers nuts.
A great example in theorganized labor context is that,
just like five or six years agopre-COVID, five or six years
ago, pre-covid union contractswere about how do we equitably
distribute over time?
That was always a big issue.
Everybody wants overtime.
(04:53):
How do we make sure those extravaluable hours are distributed
in a way that is fair?
And that's what you spent a lotof time negotiating about.
Just five or six years later,we're 180 degrees from there and
a lot of union negotiation atthe bargaining table is who are
(05:15):
we going to force to take thoseovertime hours?
Who's going to have to do theextra work?
And I don't think people havegotten lazy.
That's not the takeaway there.
It's just that somethinghappened societally that instead
of everyone trying to work asmuch as possible, including all
that overtime, it's now agreater priority being put on
(05:38):
off work hours and the employerbeing in a position where okay,
if we have to have people workextra, how are we going to make
them do it or entice them to doit, which is not a place most
employers have ever been, atleast in a generation and, from
what I hear, many generations.
Shannon Oelkers (05:57):
I'm not surprised to hear that.
We have seen it on our side aswell, even in the non-union side
.
One of the things I had wantedto talk to you about was the
fact that the graying of thefleet is now turning into the
retiring of the fleet.
Do you think it's agenerational difference as well?
Michael O'Brien (06:13):
I do.
I do for sure, and there'sdefinitely a different
perception.
I definitely view myself asfirmly Gen X and I think as part
of that Gen X and older, wewere brought into the workforce
with a you need to earn yourstripes, like that sort of
euphemism was common.
(06:34):
You know, like suck it up, yourtime will come.
That sort of notion is not asprevalent in the new generation
that we see in the workplaceright now the millennial, gen Y,
millennial workforce.
It's much more like if I'mgiving you my time, I'm
deserving of sort of all thethings right now, and that's a
(06:54):
big difference.
And employers used to sort ofthere was a gradation of how
people were treated or benefitsthat were received that was tied
to time in service, time inoffice.
Those sorts of notions that youcan delay the delivery of those
benefits are gone.
It's probably too strong to saymillennials want it all now,
(07:16):
but I think that's sort of howthat generation and younger is
viewed and they also want to betrained really well.
Younger is viewed and they alsowant to be trained really well.
The sort of the rookie gettinginitiated or the rookie sort of
we didn't do it back in the oldday.
Those sort of notions are notvalued the way they once were,
and that may be a good thing,because it's more the
(07:40):
expectation that I have like afully paying, well-trained, safe
environment.
Now, and you're not sort ofexhausted and quote unquote,
earning it for some delayedbenefit, you're going to get
down the road.
Shannon Oelkers (07:55):
I think that follows frequent job changes too
.
I definitely have seen peoplenot staying in jobs for 30 or 40
years.
Right, they're going betweenjobs maybe every four to five
years, and I think there's nopoint in having delayed benefits
if you aren't going to be therein five years, right?
Michael O'Brien (08:13):
Yeah, and I think employers are going a
little bit nuts because theywant to give people the
opportunity to quote unquote,move up the ladder.
But when there's an expectationthat you start at the top to
quote unquote, move up theladder.
But when there's an expectationthat you start at the top of
the ladder, you have to rethinkthe ladder a little bit.
Shannon Oelkers (08:31):
Well and rethink the benefits, because a
lot of the standard benefitoptions do not result in better
recruitment.
Our firm learned that early on.
Michael O'Brien (08:40):
Yeah, and I'm depicting this in a way that's
negative towards these newemployees, but we didn't get
here by accident.
The move away from a pensionplan, for example, which very
few employers offer that wasthis really monolithic,
monumental way of building timeinto how the workplace operates.
(09:02):
People stayed for the 30th yearbecause that's when you got the
most benefits, and employers,for many, many reasons, shifted
to a defined contribution plan,which is, in essence, like a
take the money and run plan.
It doesn't value time, doesn'tput a priority on that.
So employees are basicallysaying two can play that game.
(09:26):
If you're not going to have asystem in place that rewards
longevity, like I'm not going tostick around.
Shannon Oelkers (09:41):
There's not a whole lot of us, and so I'm
seeing younger and youngerpeople filling jobs, just
because there's not as manypeople our age to fill it, and I
think that ties into the changein how these jobs are perceived
and how all of our employerseveryone who's listening to this
podcast needs to learn how torecruit for millennials and Gen
(10:02):
Y.
Michael O'Brien (10:03):
Right, because that's who you're going to hire
at this point, and definitely alabor shortage, especially in
Alaska.
You look, going back to mypension statement before, it's
not a driver directly forprivate employers, but getting
rid of the PERS system where youhad people staying in the state
(10:25):
for a long period of time underthe state system.
There's been like a trickledown of that.
People leave the state moreoften, the families.
If one family member is leaving, then everyone leaves.
So you look at in my field, theAlaska Bar Association, they
have an employment page.
Field, the Alaska BarAssociation, they have an
(10:48):
employment page On any given day.
Right now.
There are as many open positionsas there are people who pass
the bar, because we had thismassive pulse of people,
employees during the pipelineera.
They were boomer employees.
The last of those folks areretiring right now and they were
half the workforce and so webuilt infrastructures around
(11:09):
that, we built systems aroundthat number of people in the
workforce and they've just gonepoof.
They've gone poof for a coupleof reasons.
They retired, they're notworking anymore.
Not working anymore those thatwere working during COVID.
A lot of them just were like,yeah, it's not worth.
(11:31):
This is incredibly inconvenient.
Shannon Oelkers (11:32):
I'd rather just not work than do this.
We went from graying of thefleet to retiring of the fleet
in 2020.
Michael O'Brien (11:36):
Exactly.
And so as a state we've justhad this, and I use an example
from my field law.
But look at social workers,look at teachers, look at really
any field engineers and youjust see this demographic cliff,
with the last of those boomersretiring leaving the state,
(11:57):
stopping working, and there justhas not been the replacement
necessary.
You know, one person has cometo the state for every two or
three of those folks that haveretired.
So I think we have an openquestion If we needed those
people, which it seemed likethey all were working all those
years.
That's a big problem.
So I think for an Alaskan I'man Alaskan attorney, I'm
(12:19):
defensive of Alaska work.
You're an Alaska company, youwant Alaska companies doing it,
but it becomes tougher tocompete because more and more
outside firms will move in, justbecause there's not the
critical mass for Alaska firms,which is a real threat to our
economy.
Shannon Oelkers (12:38):
We're seeing migration out to.
You know, we have people thatwe've had as interns that go to
college in somewhere else andthen they don't come back to
Alaska.
So a lot of the futureemployees are also not
necessarily staying.
Michael O'Brien (12:53):
Yeah, for 20 years I've tried to hire and I
have hired for Alaska, andAlaska can be very sticky,
meaning people come here likemyself I'm not going anywhere.
You know I'll be buried inAlaska someday.
That's how sticky it is for me,but for a lot of people, if
(13:14):
you're weighing this, you knowit's not for everyone.
You have to really have apassion that Alaska allows for
it.
And then if you're someonewho's married, your partner has
to like it just as much as youdo, and there's a lot of factors
that are working against us.
Like, alaska is, in my mind,you know, the most amazing place
to live in the world, so that'sgood.
(13:35):
But more and more I get thesense that I'm in the minority.
You know it's not for everyone.
Like I acknowledge that.
Shannon Oelkers (13:43):
I just feel like the opportunity here,
Michael, is so big and I thinkthat people in the lower 48
don't necessarily see thatopportunity.
I mean, just the fact that Icould start a business from
nothing and become competitivewithin a few years is crazy.
Like everywhere else in thelower 48, there's dozens of
(14:04):
companies that are all doingsimilar things and lots of
competition.
Michael O'Brien (14:08):
I agree a thousand percent.
And I'll say I can't rememberwhich friend of mine said this,
but it's not my original idea.
But in reference to AlaskaNative corporations, people
really don't understand howsophisticated People really
don't understand howsophisticated, how big and how
meaningful their work is.
And this friend of mine saidsomeday there's going to be a
(14:32):
base built on Mars and an Alaskanative corporation is going to
build it.
And people who aresophisticated about government
contracting and that sort ofthing know how big a deal Alaska
native corps are.
What they're doing is soimpressive and so if you are in
that orbit, if you can do thatwork, help them, be a partner to
(14:53):
theirs.
The sky is literally the limitin Alaska.
Shannon Oelkers (14:58):
So we've talked about some of the impacts to
labor that we're seeing.
What does that mean for, like,our industry partners, like what
are you seeing utilities andbulk fuel companies?
And I mean like how are theychanging or adapting to this
changing workforce?
Michael O'Brien (15:15):
So often in that equation, like the union is
a partner for the utility world.
Those are all unionizedworkforces.
And one thing I think you'veseen more and more of across the
state is the way that you'dhave a national signing day
event for kids who are going toplay a sport in college.
(15:38):
Or you'd make a big deal abouta student who's going off to X,
y or Z college student who'sgoing off to X, y or Z college.
More and more you're seeinglike union signing days and
you're seeing kids moving fromhigh school to the trades and
I'm a liberal arts guy myselfbut you can do very, very well
(15:58):
especially compared to a liberalarts degree, which is what I
have going into the trades andsome unions have done a really
good job of that and they'vedone a great job of highlighting
what their union has to offer.
I still think there's atremendous opportunity there,
because a high school studentmay intuitively know I know what
(16:20):
an IBEW lineman is because Isee them on the side of the road
.
But, for example, theBoilermakers Union is doing some
really interesting work.
They're interested in carbonand carbon capture and there's a
huge future in that and it'sactually sort of the green
economy.
(16:40):
Are we doing enough topublicize that?
It's not just like hammeringnails or like building things.
It's actually being part oflike probably world historical
change in our economy and a lotof these trades whether it's
solar installation or carboninjection into an old well hole,
(17:02):
the trades are going to be partof that, and so we really have
to figure out how to capture theimagination of those 17 and 18
year olds.
Shannon Oelkers (17:12):
So I work primarily in bulk fuels,
although we do utilities as well, because they store a lot of
bulk fuel.
And we also do aviation andforgive the term, but the
sexiness of the job really doesplay a factor, like every little
kid who's six can imagine beingan aviation pilot, and making
the jump between that andfueling the airplane is pretty
easy.
But a whole lot of them don'tthink about a Boilermaker or a
(17:36):
Boilerman.
In the same ideology, and I dothink there's an opportunity
both on the union side and theprivate side to just make these
jobs more visible.
And I know in our podcast I'mtrying to show people how we get
to these places Because when Iwas growing up I wanted to be a
biologist.
I mean Exxon Valdez happenedwhen I was in fifth grade, right
(17:56):
.
So the entire industry ofenvironmental remediation and
response was being invented as Iwas growing up.
I mean it did exist prior toExxon, but as a national EPA
project.
Those are big changes in 89 and90 that impacted all the way
through.
So back to the visibility.
(18:17):
I think a lot of the peoplethat we work with when they're
recruiting for jobs right nowwhat I see is the people that
are most successful are alsorecruiting for future employees
by showing up to job fairs,talking at high schools,
supporting programs, so thatpeople can see that you can make
$100,000 driving a truck ormanaging a gas station.
(18:39):
You can make $100,000 in Alaskamanaging a gas station.
Yeah, that's good money.
Michael O'Brien (18:44):
There's so many things that I'm sure most
adults have this experiencewhere you're like if I'd only
known what that was, I mighthave studied that or I might
have done that.
And I'm absolutely fascinatedby, like, large industrial,
whether it's a power plant or adistribution center or anything
that's just really complex.
(19:05):
Where you have it's a bunch ofhard problems that you need to
solve.
And I was wandering around thisa client's large distribution
center, you know, and it hadtruck schedules and trains
involved and you know mechanicsto make sure all the conveyor
belts worked.
And I was asking the manager,like how do you find people who
(19:27):
want to run this place 24 hoursa day?
You know it's so complex andlike no one majors in that in
college.
He said, you know our best luckis zoology students because,
like they want to be zookeepersand in essence, a zoo is just a
supply chain.
Like poop has to go out, foodhas to go in, you know the
(19:50):
monkeys have to have bananas,the rhinoceroses have to have
hay 24 hours a day.
Like it can, you can't liketake three days off.
You know the poop will pile upand the monkeys will starve, you
know.
And like you have to sort ofhave someone who is like that's
a challenge I want to solve,yeah.
And the reality is, running adistribution center is the same
(20:13):
problem.
It pays a lot more, but workingat them and running at them
appeals to like the same mind,like you need the same mind to
do each of them.
And I just thought that wassuch a fascinating like someone
was really intentional andcreative.
When they're like, these arethe people we need to go after.
They think this is fun, youknow, and the question is like,
(20:36):
what is that for us?
And I feel like in Alaska thereare so many opportunities for
kids to be hands-on and dothings and something happens
because and I'm not blamingschool for this, but something
happens once they're like middleschool and older, when we start
teaching them the science ofthe things, that it sort of
(20:56):
drains the joy out of it forthem.
Shannon Oelkers (20:59):
Well, you and I could have a whole other
podcast on science education inAlaska.
It's a personal project of mineto improve scientific literacy
in Alaska.
But you're right, the joy getssucked out or the sense of
achievement.
And you know I work with peoplewho would, I think, be
considered blue collar workers.
But they're performing prettyhigh level science every day
(21:21):
hydraulics, fluid dynamics,pressure.
A lot of engineering goes intothose systems and they have to
have a good literal grasp ofwhat's going to happen, because
things really bad things happenif they don't.
And I do think that the hands onpiece is something that needs
to be part of jobs.
People learn by doing andcreating positions, with
(21:44):
mentoring or job shadowing orbeing able to let them try it
out as an intern before you goin.
And I do know for some of theindustries we work with the idea
of hiring an intern for thesummer.
It's there, they might run themarina and fuel up boats and
then that might be a way forthem to get into the fuel
industry.
But you can't do a summerinternship for truck driving,
(22:04):
for example, or fuel truckdriving, but there's other
avenues for that.
But I think what you and I aregetting at is, if you're
listening to this podcast andyou're younger, you should try
some of these interesting thingsthat you see while you're out
and about living your life andmaybe give them a thought,
because it's very difficult andcompetitive to get a job working
at a zoo and the pay is low,but you might be finding just as
(22:28):
much satisfaction at adistribution center and getting
paid triple and much lesscompetition and in fact, you can
go up the chain really fast,and I definitely.
I don't know if you've seenthis, michael, but when I
entered the workforce I waslooking at a 20 year slog to be
management and I think that hasbeen halved maybe eight to 10
years at this point.
Michael O'Brien (22:49):
Yeah, and people would much rather develop
, especially in Alaska, managersfrom within.
It's very hard to bring inleadership from the lower 48.
Is that?
Not only is the time requiredhalved to become a manager and
get to a certain, with all thepay and responsibility that
(23:09):
comes with that, but you comparenotes with people in the lower
48, if you are interested in afield, you've had four times the
experience they had, becausepeople are much more willing to
throw people into stuff.
In Alaska, you know to figureit out because we don't have the
luxury of layer upon layer ofexperienced employees.
Shannon Oel (23:34):
Microspecialization .
I only pull this lever.
Nobody does that in Alaska.
You got to do it from start tofinish and be there when the one
other person that does what youdo is taking a vacation.
You've got to do their stufftoo.
Michael O'Brien (23:45):
Yeah Well, and I think just I'm not sure which
there's a lot of like industrysupport alliances and things
like that.
One of the things I saw thisyear was there was a program
just to bring people up to theslope for a couple of weeks and
there's a thousand jobs up there.
Does any of this lookinteresting to you?
Whether it's sweeping the flooror running the rig or doing the
(24:09):
engineering, because that'ssort of the problem.
Alaska is amazing but we don'thave.
You may not see people in yourdaily life doing all these jobs,
so it's tough to visualizeyourself doing it.
So we need to.
I think internships are a greatway to do it.
The medical field in Alaska isjust plagued by this issue and I
(24:32):
know in Fairbanks, fmh has beenspending a lot of time bringing
in high school students forinterns and interns.
There's a reason not everyonehas interns.
They get underfoot, and that'sthe point.
They should be gettingunderfoot because they don't
(24:53):
know anything yet.
But getting folks turned on to,whether it's radiation
technology or nursing orpediatrics, you have to be that
aggressive in Alaska or elseyou're just going to run out of.
You're not going to have peopleto do the jobs.
So certain industries aregetting it, others I'm fearful
(25:13):
for because you look at the cost, you know, using that metaphor
of like a traveling nurse, yeah,or bring someone up for a year
or two from the lower 48, andthey don't work out the cost
involved in that turnover.
Shannon Oelkers (25:27):
Not just the cost to the company, but the
cost and trust to the community,the cost to the company for
having to train somebody toreplace that person.
Michael O'Brien (25:36):
There's so much that happens when you have the
wrong fit for that job to bringto the table just by having
lived up here, because in thatyear or two of bringing someone
up from the lower 48, there's alot of getting up to speed just
for Alaska that they have to do.
(25:57):
That is expensive as well.
Shannon Oelkers (26:00):
Just remote travel.
There's so many people on thisearth that are afraid to get
into a small plane, michael,which is something we do every
week at our firm.
Let's go, time to go.
It's an adventure, but to a lotof people that feels like an
extremely risky thing to do.
Michael O'Brien (26:17):
Yeah Well, and that's like the literal, the
nuts and bolts of travel.
The other thing that I've seen,the Alaskan workforce we sort
of all get along with each other, we know how to talk to each
other.
But if you take someone fromSeattle and fly them to a
village or somewhere off theroad system or even a smaller
(26:40):
community on the road system,there's a bit of culture shock
for them.
No matter how welcoming or notwelcoming the community is, just
they don't feel comfortable.
Welcoming or not welcoming thecommunity is just they don't
feel comfortable.
Like it's so different, it's sodifferent from anything else in
the lower 48 that a lot ofpeople are afraid to do that.
I've seen that in my careerover and over.
Like they're not comfortablegoing to village Alaska, to
(27:13):
rural Alaska and I'm suresomeone's done a study rural
Alaska is probably greatlyunderserved just because of that
one function.
Like people from the lower 48don't want to come here and so
they don't get that service.
Shannon Oelkers (27:20):
True, I mean we're seeing it with a lot of
the renewable energy.
It's very difficult to getpeople to come out and fix it.
I mean like to get the rightkind of engineer to come out and
do the work.
There's definite restrictionson who's available, although
that's getting a little betterin the last couple of years, but
10 years ago when the windmillwent out on St Paul Island.
(27:42):
It was out for a long timebecause there was just nobody to
come and fix it.
Michael O'Brien (27:47):
Yeah, I'm smiling because I had a client
who was dealing with a remotefacility and there were bears
there.
So we're talking about bearguards and who offers that
service?
And, like you, know what shouldyou?
How do you protect youremployees who have to work in
that remote environment?
And we got pretty far into theconversation about hiring these
(28:11):
bear guards.
And we got pretty far into theconversation about hiring these
bear guards and the client saidI just think it's amazing that
the bears are that well trainedthat they can guard the
employees.
They were thinking like aliteral guard, like a guard dog,
but not a guard bear Exactly,and I was thinking wow, like
we've been having two totallydifferent conversations.
(28:34):
In fact, they thought the bearwas good, that would be amazing
to have trained bears guard youremployees.
Shannon Oelkers (28:42):
I now want a trained bear with Integrity logo
, tactical gear on.
That would be amazing.
Michael O'Brien (28:47):
Absolutely To guard your employees in a remote
location.
But just wow like there was alot of disconnect at that moment
.
Shannon Oelkers (28:56):
Yes, our firm has done quite a bit too.
We also struggle with Alaskanswho are urban.
You know, maybe from theAnchorage or Mat-Su area.
They definitely have exposureto rural Alaska, but not intense
exposure.
I mean, I myself am probablyone of the most well-traveled
(29:19):
Alaskans that I know within thestate and then our firm travels
pretty frequently to ruralAlaska and we definitely have
added trainings and companyculture moments and a lot of
things that sort of buildpeople's ability to do better in
rural Alaska.
And I know some companies do andsome companies don't.
But I personally feel like youhave a better chance of success
if you're giving people heads upon things like something simple
(29:42):
, like shaking hands and takingyour glove off and shaking skin
to skin, like that's a bigmanners piece that many people
miss if they just didn't grow updoing it that way.
Or taking your sunglasses offwhen you talk to somebody
important so you can look atthem eye to eye and that's all
in our handbook.
You know we have like.
You know like we have thingsabout like how you interact and
(30:04):
if you are working with a gasstation, you buy your gas there,
like we call it old fashionedmanners, but it's also ways of
doing things in rural Alaskawhere people are more
interdependent, and those thingsare really important.
Michael O'Brien (30:16):
Yeah, and I don't think you realize I mean a
lot of it is this accrual oflearned habits over many years
and Alaska employers.
If you're working in ruralAlaska, finding people who have
all of that is very, very hard,and I would say the key then is
to start employing more peoplefrom rural Alaska because they
(30:38):
have all those skills.
But I was reminded of that acouple of weeks ago.
I had family in town and afriend of mine with a plane
decided to take myself and arelative out flying and we
landed in a village off the roadsystem and my father was
walking around and sort of likea tourist, like taking pictures
(30:59):
of like everything, and I said,look, don't do that.
You know that's.
You know he was like justreally fascinated but it's not a
tourist attraction, it's theirfront porch.
Right, exactly, and it sort ofvery quickly makes people feel
other or less than when you dothat and it's really easy for
(31:22):
all.
Of you know, no one's perfectin this world.
Shannon Oelkers (31:26):
Oh, I struggle with that.
You know how many photos I take.
I definitely have to be like isthis an okay one?
I don't know, maybe, maybe.
Fortunately, I work in a lot ofindustrial areas, so it's not
somebody's house.
But yes, you're right, there'sjust that piece of it One of the
things I wanted to talk about,because I do think this is
changing a little bit.
You and I both work in sometraditionally male-dominated
(31:49):
industries and I personally amseeing more women enter these
areas.
My firm is actually part ofthat.
A lot of our employees rightnow we're all women, but we have
had men work with us before.
We're not exclusive.
I get asked that a lot.
Michael O'Brien (32:07):
As an employment lawyer, I tell you
that's probably a bad idea to beexclusive one gender.
Shannon Oelkers (32:13):
No, it's illegal to hire only women, but
our firm has benefits that doappeal to women, especially in
the professions that we are in,and so I would argue that it's
no different than an engineeringfirm having mostly men, because
how they're structured and thebenefits they offer and the
career that they offer appeal toa dude engineer.
(32:35):
But yes, we do.
We do get asked that all thetime, and I do think my firm's
doing our best to be the littlelight right, but we do see more
women enter, but I don't knowthat they're staying, and so I
was curious if you had trends ordata that you've come across
that shows more women entering,or some of these.
I mean literally, in some ofthese industries it's like 99%
(32:57):
men and 1% women.
I don't know.
Have you seen things changingin the last couple of years or
recently?
Michael O'Brien (33:03):
Yeah, I don't have data on that, but I do see
more and more women intraditionally male-dominated
spaces, you know whether that'sthe slope or just industrial
settings in general.
You know, and I will say goodon millennials and Gen Y here,
because I think with Gen X wemight have been the first.
(33:26):
I think boomers sort of brokethrough the barriers on this
issue.
But a lot of what I saw in mycareer early on was like talk
about diversity and equity.
There were posters, there wastraining, and I give those
trainings and training isimportant to set the tone and to
(33:48):
establish what the culture is,to set the tone and to establish
what the culture is.
But really good on millennialsand Gen Y, because like they are
not satisfied with the postersand like the platitudes and like
talking it up, like they demandaction.
You know it's fair to saythey're more of an activist
generation than Gen X.
(34:08):
You know, like not in theparade sense of activism but in
the like we demand real results.
And so I think that more thananything like no, I'm not going
to be satisfied with justtalking about it, I want to see
the company change its behavioron this thing.
Shannon Oelkers (34:28):
Or choosing to work at a company that has those
things in place and has adiverse workforce already.
Michael O'Brien (34:33):
Yeah, and what I always tell employers and I do
a lot of training on this isit's not a good place for an
employer to be to think, well,we haven't gotten sued this year
.
No EEOC complaints Like we mustbe great because you can be in
that status and still have lowmorale.
You're good employees.
(34:54):
You know the ones you're tryingto attract.
They're not going to sue younecessarily.
Like they leave sooner than youwish they would.
The quiet quitting, yes, yeah,there's all those sort of
attrition factors.
You know why does this companyjust stay male?
Why is it stagnating?
It's probably because you'renot doing enough A lot of these
(35:16):
things we're talking about.
It's about real action andpeople.
Again, it's not the poster.
It's like do I have a mentorwho actually gets my situation
and understands what I need inthe workforce and not just sort
of begrudgingly, lets me take my12 weeks of FMLA when I have a
(35:38):
child.
And I'll say this my own bosswhen I had a child was like take
as much time as you need.
We are super excited for you.
I felt like a thousand percentsupport in that setting and
that's what employees arelooking for now.
It's not just like okay, here'sthe HR form, because 12 weeks
(35:58):
later, after your FMLA is done,you still have a child.
That's how that works and theyhave all sorts of needs and it's
taxing.
And one thing I see is astaxing as that is when you're a
young parent.
We're now on the other end ofthat equation and now it's our
(36:19):
own parents we have to starttaking care of, and especially
when workforces are smaller tobegin with, and Gen X is sort of
the leader in the workforce nowif we need to take time off,
sort of the leader in theworkforce now If we need to take
time off, do we work in aworkplace that's going to be
like, yeah, like we get it.
Like all humans have, they haveparents.
You know, most humans have kids, and like it's part of that
(36:43):
being human and that's the shiftin the workplace.
Like the workplace isn'teverything.
Life is everything and theworkplace is sort of what people
do.
Part of the day Is that sort ofthe new view and the workplace
who, yes, we're going to supportyou through all these life
events.
They're going to have free andso I'm past the age of using
(37:15):
daycare benefits or anythinglike that, and I'm sure, however
much it costs my firm they'vegotten their money's worth in
(37:35):
marketing of me telling everyoneI run into, because if you're
in your 40s or 50s as a parentyou're sort of like deep in this
college hunt- and it's aloyalty right, like you're not
looking for another job rightnow.
Shannon Oelkers (37:49):
You feel happy, right.
That's a huge piece ofretaining employees is having
benefits that matter to them,not what you think they want,
and that was something I had tolearn early on because I was Gen
X and things that I thoughtwould matter.
There's differences, andchanging how we offered those
benefits was really beneficialto my firm.
But I do feel for some of ouremployers, though, because
(38:12):
they've got a labor shortage andthen they've got a labor force
that wants lots of flexibilityand lots of time to do their own
thing and take care of family,and I know especially some of
our skilled trades where there'snot really remote work
flexibility, like you have to bethere operating the machine or
the warehouse or the whatever.
How do you see some of thoseemployers adapting and
(38:36):
attracting employees?
Michael O'Brien (38:38):
Yeah, great question.
You hit the nail on the headand it sort of goes back to what
I said earlier about theovertime issue is that time is
seen as wealth.
Now, it's not.
Can I work as much as I can toaccumulate wealth?
It's how do I have time tomyself?
That's what makes me feel valueand obviously, if the work has
(39:02):
to be done in real time in areal space, someone's got to be
there.
But being really creative abouthow can I schedule people so
that they have chunks of timeoff, I think it's a fool's
errand.
I see a lot of employers doingit, getting in an arms race over
pay.
You know, oh, we'll match thispay, we'll match that pay.
(39:25):
The reality is that that timeis more valuable.
That time is more valuable andwhether it's working eight
months on, four off, havingthose options for employees like
a very flexible schedule whenyou do have to be there is very
attractive.
Shannon Oelkers (39:42):
We've seen a couple of different remote work
industries start adopting atwo-on-two-off schedule, like
the slope, so that people canlive where they want to live,
which is like Wasilla withbetter schools, right, or
sometimes even Fairbanks withbetter schools, but they can
work, do this skilled labor, inmore remote locations and so
(40:04):
they can fill those jobs.
There's definitely some chatterabout you know, are you taking
a local job?
But I can tell you right nowtwo years of a job opening in a
remote location and no one'sapplied and no one's qualified
and no one's going to do it.
That two on two off schedulehas been very appealing and I've
seen that work really well forsome of our clients.
(40:25):
They just had to shift fromyou've got to move to this
location and operate this tankfarm to why don't you go out and
do it two weeks and thensomeone else will come in and
relieve you and give you thattime that you want to go fishing
and hunting and hanging outwith your family.
Michael O'Brien (40:40):
And I think that speaks to this broader
trend, which is not that we'reworking in the gig economy, but
sort of the premise of the gigeconomy is you could do it on
your time, where you want, whenyou want, and that isn't how
these jobs work, but it's sortof it's on that spectrum of I
want more flexibility, I'll bethere and I'll be there 100
(41:03):
percent when I'm on site, butthe rest of the time, in essence
, why should the employerdetermine where my kids go to
school?
Is what you're saying.
Shannon Oelkers (41:13):
So, Michael, you previously mentioned
training and that's kind ofwoven throughout.
What we've talked about is thatthere's this expectation of
training.
Many of our regulations andpermits that we write to meet
those require multipleoverlapping layers of training.
This includes things liketechnical certifications, like
(41:33):
sort of specific training likeHaswopper, and then there's like
on-the-job experientialtraining.
Could you talk to us about whatrole employer-provided training
plays in successful employment,Because these jobs do have a
lot of responsibilities.
Michael O'Brien (41:51):
Yeah, really interesting question, and I
think COVID for a little whileforced everything to go online.
There's been online or virtualtrainings for quite a while and
we had a moment to think of well, what if all of this was going
to be training, you know, couldit be online training?
And I think the takeaways aremixed.
(42:11):
For some things, online hasbeen just as good, in fact.
Whether it's a recordedtraining or it's sort of just a
training through a Teams channel, it can be very good.
But the question is likeengagement, like that's the key
with any training.
If I'm desperate to learnsomething, if it's an online
(42:33):
training that's pre-recorded,I'm going to learn it because I
really want to know it.
But if it's something I'm lessengaged in, I don't think it
matters if it's an onlinetraining, recorded, or even if
it's in person.
If I'm not engaged, it's justgoing to sort of go over my head
.
So I think the levels oftraining have gone up, meaning
(42:56):
you can get much better onlinetraining now than you could a
few years ago and there's almostan overtraining.
Because so much of it is online, people don't mind requiring
even more training.
Shannon Oelkers (43:05):
Well, what we see is that there's trainings
that check a box, and thenthere's trainings that teach you
how to do the thing you'resupposed to be doing, and those
two are not necessarily the same.
Michael O'Brien (43:15):
They're not the same at all and I feel like if
you really want to change mindsor change behavior or like
introduce a new skill, there'sno substitute for hands on.
You have to really sort of workthrough the problem yourself,
sort of work through the problemyourself.
Have the thing in your hands,whether it's a regulation, a
(43:39):
tool, an experience or a problem, you have to really work
through it.
In the end.
That's like where all educationreally lies.
It's like giving someone that,and sometimes you give them the
basics through training and thenthey really learn it on the job
.
But if we're expecting them toreally learn it through training
, it's just got to be excellent.
Shannon Oelkers (43:55):
We talk to employers a lot about having a
training program that goesbeyond check boxes, because you
know, I do a lot of adultdevelopment in my job and
there's a lot of research thatshows that somebody needs to
interact with a new idea orsomething that you need to learn
that's important at least seventimes and in multiple different
(44:18):
learning pathways.
And so I think a lot ofemployers, when they want to
retain employees, they providetraining programs, but then the
employees are like I didn't getany training and it's because
they had one video the firstweek they were hired and then
that particular skill orresponsibility was never touched
upon again and just like ourrecord keeping recommendations,
(44:39):
you've got to like train themonce, train them again, do a
refresher, have an easyreference guide, have a
highlight day where you bring itback up again.
And I do see this corporatepush to have checkbox trainings.
But I think that's the start,that's where you bring it back
up again.
And I do see this corporatepush to have checkbox trainings.
But I think that's the start,that's where you start.
But then there needs to beother things on the job and
woven into the work environmentto create an atmosphere where
(45:01):
they're going to pick it up allthose times and retain it.
Michael O'Brien (45:05):
Yeah, I advise clients, so there's compliance,
there's like keeping the companyout of jail, you know, and
there's probably some amount oftraining that checks that box
you know that says okay, weprovided everyone this training.
Like, you have to check that boxagain.
That's like to keep us out ofthe jail category.
That's not the aspirational.
(45:27):
Like, okay, how do we changeour culture?
How do we achieve great newthings?
A checkbox training is notgoing to do that.
It's the seven different waysthat you're talking about.
So companies are allowed tohave both goals.
You got to stay out of jail.
Shannon Oelkers (45:43):
Yes, that's the beginning, that's where you
start.
You have to have the stay outof jail training.
Michael O'Brien (45:47):
Yes, but no company ever got great with that
as their goal Agreed.
To really change people and toachieve those new things, you've
got to be really work investingin people.
And I think Gen Y, millennialsthey're sort of calling us out
on that.
You know, like we expect, likewe're not going to play along,
(46:10):
that we're trained after thatone video like we want the real,
like in essence investment youknow.
And again, shame on us, gen x,for not, we just sort of like oh
yeah, I guess that wassufficient.
I have no idea what I'm doingwell, it comes down to cost too.
Shannon Oelkers (46:26):
It costs more.
It does cost more to keephitting, but I would argue that
a lot of people in themanagement role terminal manager
, plant manager, operations lead.
There are ways for them thatare pretty low cost to keep.
Coming back to stuff that'scritical, and I do think you
have to put in a little bit ofwork to understand what's
(46:47):
critical, like what training isreally important to not mess up,
and what I see with, like inthe bulk fuels industry.
For example, they get a lot oftraining on how to load and
unload a tank truck because it'shigh risk and they do it every
single day.
So they get a lot ofreinforcement.
They don't get nearly thatlevel of training on I don't
know emergency response andspill response.
(47:08):
They might do that once ortwice a year.
Right and granted, hopefullyyou're not going to be doing
spill response every single day,but we see when they actually
have a spill that there's thattraining gap because they've got
all this reinforcement on thisone area that's considered
really critical but not another,even though they've had minimum
trainings, they've had reviews.
(47:29):
It just doesn't stick yeah, itis rare.
Michael O'Brien (47:32):
You know we're talking about how hard it is to
fill jobs and fill positions,but sort of shout out to the
good managers of alaska, becausethose are very hard to find
being a leader it's a hugeretention tool, because who you
work for is important as well,right?
Right.
Being a leader is very, veryhard.
(47:55):
Being a manager not quite ashard, still hard.
But being a leader and reallysetting the tone and juggling
all of these things, includinginvesting in your employees
personally and making them feellike they're important in the
workplace there's not enoughhours in the day for all that,
so it's quite hard.
(48:15):
So it's not just like employersare asleep at the wheel, but
it's all.
These positions are hard tofind and sort of the managers
who drive it are.
It takes time to develop them.
Shannon Oelkers (48:26):
It does.
It does take time to developthem and develop their own
understanding of what they'rerequired to do, because if they
didn't get good training whenthey started, they're going to
have gaps in knowledge too whenthey get to that management tier
.
Michael O'Brien (48:38):
Yeah, well, unfortunately, like you said,
the thing that you didn't trainon it doesn't happen all that
often, so it's almost like it'sa self-fulfilling prophecy, like
, well, I guess it's not thatimportant because it didn't
happen again.
It's wrong, because when it isimportant, it just doesn't
happen all that often.
You talked about the ExxonValdez is probably maybe the
(49:02):
world historical best example ofthat.
It doesn't happen very oftenbut, boy, when it does, you want
everyone to be trained, andAlaska's, since then, done a
good job of taking thatseriously.
Shannon Oelkers (49:15):
You know an example from that catastrophe I
use the most.
They had spill responseequipment but it was buried
under eight feet snow eight footsnow drifts and they had to get
equipment to dig out thoseconnexes to be able to get into
them, and that did delay.
And so something as simple askeeping the snow blowed away
from the front of your spillconnex is important.
(49:37):
It's part of your regulargroundskeeping and maintenance
and it's easy to skip becauseyou don't want to stay that
extra 15 minutes because youalready plowed the whole road
right, but in the event of anemergency you do need it, and so
that's the one I use the mostfrom the Exxon Valdez.
Yeah, yeah, that one thingfogged it up right at the
(49:58):
beginning.
Michael O'Brien (49:59):
And you need to have a culture where, if the
snow gets piled up, where peoplefeel safe, saying hey, that's
not right or you know, that'snot supposed to be that way.
Shannon Oelkers (50:10):
Or heard Right Like they say it and somebody's
like you're right, not.
Michael O'Brien (50:15):
Right or they're retaliated against for
being some sort of sticklergoody two shoes.
You know, if you have that sortof culture, you could have the
most elaborate complianceprogram in the world and it
won't do you any good.
So that's a lot of what I workon is sort of what is the
culture in a company and does itembrace people bringing those
(50:38):
things up?
It's sort of the biggestchallenge.
There is a lot of times whenyou have that culture, people
will get it wrong.
They'll think something isblocked or they'll think, oh,
this isn't safe In fact it isand the company will sort of
come down on them in that moment.
And that's not good either,because it suggests you have to
(50:58):
be 100% right to bring up aquestion.
And most of us don't go throughlife feeling like we know
everything and we have it 100%right.
And so even when a personraises something that actually
isn't a problem, sort ofcelebrating that like wow,
that's great.
Shannon Oelkers (51:16):
It's a training opportunity too, right.
Michael O'Brien (51:19):
Yeah, like we so value your employee of the
week, even though you like sortof made us do this literal or
figurative fire drill.
Yeah, have made us do thisliteral or figurative fire drill
yeah, because you could have asort of not optimal compliance
program.
But if everyone has acompliance mindset, that's going
to fill in a lot of the gaps.
Shannon Oelkers (51:40):
Yeah, I really like the point you made that you
can have the most optimalcompliance program in the world,
but if the culture doesn'tallow its employees to operate
within it and safely call thingsout, you're right, that
definitely is a huge factor inactually achieving compliance.
Yeah, michael, thank you foryour time today.
Is there anything else youwould like to bring up related
(52:03):
to labor or the industries wework with, and do you have any
resources that you wouldrecommend for someone who's
listened to us?
Michael O'Brien (52:10):
I'm a big LinkedIn person and, for me,
getting involved online indifferent industry groups and
seeing what's sort of cuttingedge, whether it's in the travel
industry the travel industrymay seem very different from the
bulk fuel industry, buteverything that we talked about
today would apply to thatindustry, would apply to
(52:31):
hospitality, would apply tofishing.
You know everyone's facing sortof this change in the workplace
and these new expectations inthe workplace.
You know I use that story ofthe zookeeper and changing
mentality.
Like who do we need to go after?
Mentality like who do we needto go after?
(52:53):
Like what mindset solves theseproblems?
And seeing how other industriesare doing.
It is really fascinating.
Like I have learned a lot justby reading wonky sort of
industry newsletters talkingabout how they're solving these
problems and how they're goingto pivot, and maybe they've
already figured something outthat you're trying to work on.
So that's what I'm on, becauseI'm always trying to sort of
look over the horizon and seelike, okay, I'm a huge advocate
(53:16):
for Alaska, I know you are too.
How do we turn the corner anddo something new, because a lot
of the old things aren't goingto be there anymore?
Shannon Oelkers (53:27):
They sure aren't Okay.
So look to groups in yourindustry.
Sign up for free newsletters,sign up to actually be members
of those groups on things likeLinkedIn, Facebook.
Some of them are even onInstagram now, although less so.
Depends on the industry, Okay.
And then what about things likelegalities and labor law?
(53:48):
I'm guessing the state ofAlaska and the federal
government have good resourcesfor things like that as well.
Michael O'Brien (53:53):
As far as like checking that compliance box,
yeah, it's like a lot of thingsin life.
The biggest mistake people cometo me with is ignoring some
problem and they're like youknow, we've been doing this
wrong for 10 years or 15 years.
They're like you know, we'vebeen doing this wrong for 10
(54:14):
years or 15 years and it gotcaught in an audit or it got
caught Like in my experience.
That's probably true of many,many things in life.
But in the legal world, youknow, things compound, there's
trouble, damages Alaska.
We are really lucky on laborstuff, you know.
So wage an hour, just a bit ofa shout out to the Alaska
Department of Labor.
You can just call them up andsay hey, like a lot of times I
(54:37):
do it anonymously at first andsay I'm not going to tell you
this client, but how can wesolve this problem?
Like everyone you know, theproblems we've been talking
about plague the government aswell.
They're not looking to comedown on companies and, like you
know, you see things in the newsthat they're going to do some
massive fine.
Generally speaking, thoseagencies want people just to get
(55:00):
in compliance.
So I'm really comfortablecalling up a variety of state
agencies and say let's solvethis problem together.
Like this person just realizedit.
They just called me.
They want to get in complianceso, as opposed to other states
like that is not the case, don'ttry that in California.
Shannon Oelkers (55:20):
No, don't try anything in California.
Michael O'Brien (55:23):
But in Alaska you really can solve the problem
through some phone calls andlike people have a very sincere
interest in having companieswork and employ people and
succeed.
They don't want people to beabused no one does.
But a very easy example ispeople don't realize that you
(55:45):
have to pay overtime over eighthours.
If you work over eight hours inAlaska, they just think it's
over 40 hours in a week but it'sactually eight hours in a day.
A lot of companies get thatwrong for a long time because
they just don't know it.
Similarly, they treat employeesas independent contractors when
they should really be employeesand there's a real dollar value
(56:09):
for that mistake for employees.
So it's not that it may notcost you anything.
It probably will cost yousomething, but it's a problem
that can be fixed and that's alot of my day is just working
with other people here in thestate.
Okay, how do we solve thisproblem To keep everyone's
interested in keeping businesses?
Shannon Oelkers (56:30):
keep it on solve this problem to keep
everyone's interested in keepingbusinesses keep it on.
What are your thoughts abouthaving a proactive relationship
with?
A labor and employment lawyerand finding those mistakes
before they crop up in an audit.
Michael O'Brien (56:39):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's.
You know, most people don'tneed like an in-house counsel,
but even in our conversation,like I could give you 10
questions Do you pay all youremployees as independent
contractors?
That's probably a problem.
You know, like there's sort ofa greatest hits list that if
(56:59):
you're doing all these thingsit's not because people are evil
, it's because companies startsmall and informal and a lot of
this seems intuitive, it seemsreasonable.
You know, for example, insteadof giving overtime after eight
hours, giving people flex timePeople love that.
It's illegal.
Shannon Oelkers (57:21):
Yes, yes.
Michael O'Brien (57:22):
But there's a way to do it legally.
There is a way to flexible workplan in the state of Alaska
will allow for it.
So there's sort of a greatesthits of mistakes people make as
they grow from, like, workingout of the basement to owning an
office and having a lot ofemployees.
You know withholding it, youknow it can be complex, but most
(57:43):
of them are, like, very easilysolved.
Shannon Oelkers (57:46):
So maybe checking in a different growth
stages of your business ishelpful as well, In addition to
like finding out where you arenow being aware that if you're a
company and you're growing,you're probably going to have
additional things you got to hitas you grow.
Michael O'Brien (57:59):
Right, exactly, and there are different.
You know certain laws, like theAmerican Disabilities Act,
family Medical Leave Act theykick in at, like, say, 50
employees or 15 employees.
So there's a lot of this stuff.
You just don't need to worryabout when you're very small,
but then you need to startworrying about it in a major way
(58:19):
once you get to a certaincritical mass.
Shannon Oelkers (58:23):
That is super helpful.
I actually took some noteswhile you were chatting for my
own self.
Before you go, though, Michael,I wanted to say thank you for
coming on here and speaking sobroadly and sharing your
enthusiasm and love for Alaska,and I wanted to just end our
conversation today.
You and I both share a love ofold machinery.
(58:44):
That's how we became friends onLinkedIn, because I was posting
strange machines which I wishyou would do more of.
I'm trying.
I'm trying.
The first time we actuallytalked about this, I posted a
photo from 1909, and I will postthis in our show notes.
It's a photo of a wooden oiltank and it's being pulled by
this massive horse team acrossthe snow and it's for the John J
(59:07):
Sessnan Electric Company lightplant in Nome, Alaska.
And, just as a sidebar, Ireally love the thought of
horse-powered oil tanks Likethat.
Just the irony delights me.
But you and I were talkingabout that photo because I was
interested in the tank, but youhad a story and a tie-in to the
sledge that the tank was sittingon, that the horses were
(59:29):
pulling.
Yes, Tell me about the sledgethat the tank was sitting on
that the horses were pulling.
Yes, Tell me about the sledge.
Michael O'Brien (59:33):
Yeah.
So I also love old stuff inAlaska, which, if you love old
stuff, alaska is the place to be, because, a there's a lot of it
and B no one can afford to getrid of it, so it tends to just
sit wherever it was last used.
And I had the great fortune ofa friend who lives in Fort Yukon
(59:54):
and does logging and he foundin their dump not one but two of
those giant sleds and I wasjust mesmerized by this thing.
You know, you can imagine atelephone pole size log.
It could hold about 25 of those.
He pulled it with a bulldozer,not with horses, and I was
watching him use this thing andI was like where did this come
(01:00:16):
from?
It has links and chains.
The chains have five poundlinks.
I mean, these are huge, hugechains.
And the only sort of marking onthe sled was Fond du Lac,
wisconsin.
And so I was like well, that'sall I need.
And I wrote an email to the Fonddu Lac Historical Society and
(01:00:38):
they knew all about these giantsleds and they'd been produced
there for the California SilverRush, these giant sleds.
So I forget what year that was,but maybe it's like the 49ers.
That's why it's like the SanFrancisco 49ers.
Anyway, they were built to getover the Sierras to bring mining
(01:00:58):
equipment to these mines andthey're indestructible.
They're massive oak timbers andthey just sort of followed one
boom after another so they keptusing them to haul anywhere
there was snow.
And this one in particular hadbeen used on the Cannell Road in
Canada to the oil fields thereand they were used to make the
(01:01:22):
dew lines like the direct earlywarning military sites to pull
stuff around there, and I thinkthat's probably how it got to
Fort Yukon, to the Air ForceBase there.
Shannon Oelkers (01:01:34):
Oh, through the dew lines.
Huh, that's fascinating.
Michael O'Brien (01:01:37):
And the interesting.
So you have this 100-year-oldor older sled.
It's still better than anythingyou could buy.
People figured things out atsome point sometimes and that's
like best in class, and sosometimes you just we still have
the benefit of those things inAlaska sometimes that are still
in use here because we can'tafford to get rid of them.
Shannon Oelkers (01:02:00):
All right.
Well, thank you, Michael.
I appreciate your time today.
Thank you so much for sharingso much of your knowledge and
your experience with ourlisteners.
I really appreciate it.
Haley Hall (01:02:11):
Thank you for tuning into Tank Talk with Integrity
Environmental.
For additional information,please visit our website www.
integrity-env.
com.
Interested in becoming a gueston Tank Talk or have a topic
you'd like to learn more about?
Send an email to marketing@integrity-env.
com.
(01:02:33):
Until next time,
Shannon Oelkers (01:02:36):
Hi there, this is Shannon Oelkers and, as the
owner of Integrity Environmental, I wanted to take a minute here
at the end of the podcast tomake sure that you knew the
following this podcast is forinformational purposes only and
should not be considered legalor regulatory advice.
We are not responsible for anylosses, damages or liabilities
that may arise from the use ofthis podcast.
(01:02:57):
This podcast is not intended toreplace professional regulatory
or legal advice, and the viewsexpressed in this podcast may
not be those of the host thatwould be me or Integrity
Environmental.
Thank you very much forlistening and if you do need
professional regulatory advice,we'd be happy to help you as
part of our consulting services.
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