November 4, 2025 • 39 mins
Permafrost is stable - until it isn’t. As Arctic industries continue to expand, the ground below our fuel tanks and pipelines is literally thawing, causing dangerous settlement and structural failure.
In this episode, we’re joined by Ed Yarmak, President of Arctic Foundations Inc., a pioneer in the development and installation of thermosyphon technology - the passive heat transfer systems used across Alaska, Canada, and beyond to keep permafrost frozen and critical infrastructure standing.
We explore:
- What permafrost really is - and why thawing causes tanks to tilt, settle, or even fail
- How thermosyphons work (10,000-ft overview - no engineering degree required)
- How project managers can know before construction whether permafrost will be a problem
- What happens when older tanks - built before thermosyphons - start to settle decades later
- How modern systems are retrofitted with directional drilling and insulation technologies
- Pipeline applications (Alyeska and beyond)
- Ed’s top resources for professionals navigating Arctic conditions
If you work in fuel storage, remote operations, or Arctic infrastructure — this episode will change the way you think about what’s under your tanks.
UAF SNAP Climate tools
https://uaf-snap.org/climate-tools/https://snap.uaf.edu/tools/community-chartshttps://arcticeds.org/
Permafrost Conference Proceedings, Etc.
https://www.uspermafrost.org/publicationshttps://www.permafrost.org/publications/https://canadianpermafrostassociation.ca/glossary-of-permafrost-science-and-engineering.htm https://canadianpermafrostassociation.ca/permafrost-dictionary.htm
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Haley Hall (00:09):
Welcome to Tank Talk with Integrity Environmental.
Join us as we sit down withfounder, principal consultant,
and bulk fuel storage expertShannon Oelkers to explore
regulations, safety, andessential tips for navigating
the full fuel storage industry.
Join us as we explore theunique joys of work and life in
Alaska with industry experts,including our team, vendors we
(00:30):
work with, and the companies wesupport.
Shannon Oelkers (00:36):
Welcome to Tank Talk Podcast.
Hello listeners.
As you know, we work in Alaskain addition to the Pacific
Northwest and Hawaii.
Many regions in Alaska aresubject to permafrost conditions
in the soils.
I wanted to briefly go overwhat permafrost was in case
you're unfamiliar.
Permafrost is permanentlyfrozen soil layers that are
stable when frozen, but as theymelt, the soils are trapped
(00:58):
within the frozen lands subsideand cause a whole lot of
settlement for anything built ontop of them.
Maintaining that frost layerbecomes really important for
long-term infrastructure,especially things like fuel
storage tanks and pipelines, forexample.
For much of Alaska, the way tocontrol permafrost subsidence is
to maintain that permafrostlayer with a technology called
(01:19):
thermosiphons.
Today, I am very fortunate tohave Ed Yarmak from Arctic
Foundations Inc.
to explore one of the criticaltools to maintaining permafrost
that are utilized in industrialfacilities across Alaska,
Canada, Russia, China, and more.
Arctic Foundations is aninternational leader in heat
transfer and ground freezingsystems.
Welcome to the show, Ed.
(01:40):
Could you please tell ourlisteners a little bit about
your background and how you gotinvolved in this unique
industry?
Ed Yarmak (01:45):
Good morning, Shannon, and thank you for uh
inviting me to the show.
It was a long time ago, saymaybe 44, 45 years ago, I was
just happening to be having anevening talk with my an
engineering mentor, Earth Long,who owned Earth Arctic
Foundations at the time, and hesaid, How much do you want to
(02:08):
come to work for in dollars?
I was a demolition and did notask for a raise from where I was
working at the time.
But I sort of jumped at thechance.
And so really, I just kind offell into this, and it's been
kind of an exciting ride eversince.
What kind of engineeringbackground do you have at I have
(02:29):
a civil engineering degree fromthe University of Alaska and a
master of engineering degree ingeotechnical engineering from
the University of California?
So I know dirt pretty well.
Almost all of permafrost Ilearned on the job.
Shannon Oelkers (02:49):
When did you first see permafrost?
Did you grow up in Alaska ordid you come up here for school?
Ed Yarmak (02:54):
Oh, I was born here in Alaska a long time ago.
You know, and I think the firsttime I saw permafrost was out
hunting with my dad stuff,caribou hunting and probably in
the area stuff.
Later on, as I was going toschool, we even found some
permafrost in Anchorage.
I was doing land surveying topay my way through college, and
(03:19):
we'd find frozen material inlate August and probably.
So it was interesting.
Of course, you know, most ofAnchorage has been developed in
many of the areas that had thefrozen soil have h been thawed
out now.
But there still is permafrostin Anchorage.
Shannon Oelkers (03:39):
I actually have heard that.
Ed Yarmak (03:46):
Yeah.
You might recall there weresome buildings built along uh
the lower end of Firelakeseveral years ago, and then they
they settled and stuff.
And that was there waspermafrost underneath there.
There was also the on-ramp tothe Glen Highway right there.
The state had stripped all theground and put tar on the ground
(04:10):
to make it black to get thesummer's heat in and thaw off
the permafrost there.
Shannon Oelkers (04:15):
Speed up the process.
Yeah.
Forgive me, but the underlyingissue for Arctic facilities is
that there are continuous andfractured lenses of permafrost
or just permanently frozenground.
But I think nowadays it'sprobably more these fractured
lenses, and they lie underneathmany of these industrial
buildings and infrastructurethat you and I work with.
(04:35):
And the heat generated by thosestructures causes that layer to
thaw over time, like you justsaid.
Could you give us just a briefoverview of this Arctic
condition and how yourthermosiphon technology
addresses that issue?
Ed Yarmak (04:48):
Okay.
Well, we kind of have to goback to the beginning there.
And to understand the issue, weneed to know how this material
was formed.
Because a lot of people saypermafrost.
And permafrost is by thescientists, it's just soil or
rock that's been frozen for overtwo years.
(05:11):
And so then you say, okay,well, how is this soil formed?
And how is the or the rock orwhatever?
And sometimes you get reallylucky and you've got a big plane
of gravel, and it could befrozen, and you can build on top
of it, and it can thaw out, andnothing's gonna move.
(05:31):
And you always get reallylucky.
But other times you're gonnahave fine-grain materials that
when it gets cold on top, thewater segregates into ice
lenses.
Sometimes you've been farenough north where you've seen
patterned ground, and that'swhere the gets so cold that the
(05:52):
ground shrinks and it cracks,and then water goes into those
cracks.
And then you make thesevertical ice lenses or ice
wedges that go down into thesoil, and they grow as the years
go on.
And then when you go to try tobuild something on top, it
generally will have problemsunless you're you know thermally
(06:12):
treating that.
I mean, there's our system andthere's other systems to treat
the permafrost, the thermaline,but generally our system tends
to work because it doesn'trequire any.
The thermosiphon devices thatwe build are all based on
(06:33):
two-phase technology.
So if you can imagine that youhave a tube in the ground that
comes up out of the ground, andin that tube is a refrigerant.
We use carbon dioxide generallyfor our refrigerant, and so
there's some liquid refrigerantin the bottom of that tube, and
(06:54):
the rest of it is filled withvapor, kind of like a half-empty
tank or something like that, oreven lower.
So it's just, and there'snothing else in there.
And so whenever it gets cold ontop, that vapor condenses, and
that's releasing heat to the airthrough the pipe wall, and the
(07:15):
condensate wants to roll down,wants to go down to the bottom
by gravity.
Of course, when it condenses,it slightly lowers the pressure
on the inside of the vessel, andthe liquid on the bottom boils,
and that absorbs heat from theground, and the condensate rolls
(07:36):
down the wall, and anytime ithits something that's warmer
than it is, it re-evaporates.
And this cycle just goes on aslong as the air is cold or
colder than the ground.
The uh air is not colder thanthe ground, nothing happens.
It doesn't work in reverse.
So they're a very simplemachine with no moving parts,
(07:58):
basically.
They require minimalmaintenance other than just to
make sure things are working.
Shannon Oelkers (08:04):
You know, Ed, I have seen hundreds of those
thermosiphones.
I've helped install them onprojects, and I always thought
they were full of fluid.
I had no idea that they hadvapor in them, and that was the
driving heat sink.
Ed Yarmak (08:18):
There are fluid systems that are out there,
Shannon.
And the issue with a fluidsystem is it has it's all fluid,
and so it has a lot of internalresistance to have to overcome
to get that fluid to turn overand move.
I mean, you could a big fluidsystem, you could just say it
(08:38):
might be a fuel tank that's outthere that's sitting on the
ground, you fill it full offuel, and then it gets cold
outside, the fuel around theoutside of that tank will fall
to the bottom, and the otherstuff will rise in the middle.
That's sort of how the liquidthermosiphons work.
There's a whole lot of them inRussia, and they're usually over
(09:02):
there, they're usually uh theyuse kerosene as the inside.
Oh so it doesn't freeze andit'll work and stuff like that.
But they don't work that good.
Say, let's let's just say thatyou know the amount of heat
transfer that you can get out ofa two-phase unit is easily ten
(09:23):
times, which you can get out ofa single phase unit.
Shannon Oelkers (09:27):
And it's two-phase being your the gas to
liquid model versus a solelyliquid.
Exactly.
When and if your uhthermosyphins get damaged, all
they do is leak CO2 as well.
I would imagine that's abenefit also.
Yeah.
Ed Yarmak (09:41):
When somebody runs into one with a truck or a
loader or something like that,it's pretty benign, unless it's
inside where you know then it'salso fixing agent hazardous.
But you know, outside, it's allpretty benign.
If they can patch the hole orat least get it covered up and
stuff, everything can berepaired.
Shannon Oelkers (10:04):
Well, thank you.
That is a good 10,000-footoverview of how we're keeping
things cold below the ground.
For all our project managersout there, how do we know that
permafrost is going to be anissue at a project site?
Ed Yarmak (10:17):
Your best friend probably is your geotechnical
engineer that's on the project.
And the civil engineer and thegeotechnical engineer should
have gone through and doneinvestigation and stuff like
that to, you know, for if you'relooking at a new tank and
stuff, if you've got old tanksand stuff that were put out
(10:39):
there, sometimes you just don'tknow exactly what was there.
When we were working with anold tank in Greenland at
Saundestrom Fjord Airbase, youknow, it was built in the middle
50s, and the ground wasprobably 25 degrees Fahrenheit
at that time.
(10:59):
It was a fuel tank.
When we got to it, it was beingused for uh for jet fuel.
But so if you go from themiddle 50s, they didn't really
have problems with this thing onpermafrost with no other
abatement measures for heatuntil into the 2010s.
(11:22):
But in 2015, they determinedthere was an issue and that they
had to take the tank out ofservice.
And instead of putting somesort of device underneath of it
or changing the design to keepthings cool, they just rebuilt
the tank.
They put in, they leveledeverything out, they put in a
(11:43):
brand new beautiful bottom and awhole ring of the bottom row of
plates on the tank and put itback in service.
And so by the time 2019 rolledaround, there were more issues
with it.
And, you know, things weremoving, and the tank inspectors
were saying, hey, we we can keepthis for now, but we need to
(12:07):
really be watching it becausethere's some serious issues with
the tank.
The owner of the tank, whichstarted with the U.S.
Air Force and then it went offto be an aviation fuel supplier.
They just couldn't find it intheir budget to fix this tank.
And so the good thing thathappened is they now have a
(12:29):
runway that can get really bigjet planes into Greenland at
Nook instead of at the old AirForce base there.
And so they don't need the tankanymore.
So it's just gonna sit thereand rock.
Shannon Oelkers (12:44):
Rest in peace, little tank in Greenland.
You could have been saved.
Ed Yarmak (12:49):
Actually, a pretty big tank, but you know.
Shannon Oelkers (12:52):
RIP big tank.
So permafrost is something youcan't necessarily see with your
eyeballs.
You're gonna have to havegeotechnical reports to know.
And for our listeners that havefacilities with older tanks,
especially in the Arctic zone,it may be there underneath your
tank right now and it may becomea problem in the future.
For most of our listeners,though, if you own a tank,
(13:14):
you're gonna know about aproblem with permafrost when you
get an API 653 report thatshows tank settlement.
That's typically where it comesin.
That's where you know get thediagnosis.
Now, I do want to do publicservice announcement.
Not all tank settlement is dueto permafrost.
Tanks can settle for otherreasons, including foundation
degradation and all sorts ofstuff like that.
(13:35):
But generally, if you've gotsignificant tank subsidence or
settlement, there's a problemwith the foundation, and that
may be related to permafrost.
So let's talk about permafrostand tank settlement
specifically, because you and Ihave worked together on at least
one project with permafrostsettlement.
What happens to a tank when theground underneath it starts to
(13:57):
settle, Ed?
Ed Yarmak (13:59):
Well, a tank deforms.
And tanks are, you know, theylook like really stout
structures, but with the amountof fuel and weight and
everything else in them, they'reactually a little delicate.
If you see, I mean, look, Ithink the worst tank disaster
that I've heard of or and seenphotos of was the Narils diesel
(14:23):
tank in Russia that went down afew years ago.
And some people blamed it onclimate change and permafrost
thaw.
Turns out that actually thetank wasn't built the way it was
supposed to be built.
The ring wall of the tank wassupposed to have been supported
on piling that went all the wayto bedrock, and they didn't
(14:45):
quite get there.
And so they were supported inthe permafrost, and then as the
permafrost warmed up, then theysettled enough.
And if you look at the photosof that tank after it failed, I
mean it ruptured, and then asthe fuel went out, it just
sucked the rest of the steeldown toward it.
(15:07):
It turned it into a big twistedmass.
That's about the worst thing Ithink that can happen to your
tank.
So I think it's a really goodidea that people keep checking
about their tanks all the time.
Shannon Oelkers (15:20):
Agreed, agreed.
And we'll try to include photosof that tank for in our show
notes so people can see the itwas the Norelskope in Russia.
Ed Yarmak (15:31):
Norelsk.
I'm gonna look at this idea.
I can see the perfect.
Shannon Oelkers (15:37):
All right, so I'm imagining that tank is
pretty large.
So for larger tanks, we'regonna see settlement that
includes things like draping orlower on one side, higher on the
other.
And like you said, that's veryhard for a tank to handle
because a lot of the physics ofa tank for holding the weight of
the fuel relies on the shell tobe round in shape.
(15:58):
And when that roundness, whenthe tank becomes out of round,
it's weaker.
Just like it's easier to crusha soda pop can from the side
than it is from the top and thebottom.
Once the foundation startssinking on a tank, it's uh much
more susceptible to damage.
And then one thing I want tomake clear for permafrost, it's
not just sinking, right?
You can get jacking as well.
Ed Yarmak (16:20):
Well, you know, maybe around the edge of a tank if
you've got frost susceptiblesoils.
And so you've got you haveyou'd basically it'd be the same
frost heave that you'd get ifthe tank wasn't there, but it
would be close to the edge, soyou'd have something that would
be pushing up around the edge.
Kind of like people may have agarage that's that they have
(16:45):
that's unheated.
They they find that their floormoves around in the garage with
the seasons and stuff.
So that's a seasonal thing.
I see.
And you can kind of fix that,at least some of it, by using
some insulation on the outsideof the tank and just protecting
(17:05):
the ground from the frost there.
Now, if you've got goodgranular material that's
non-frost susceptible, in otherwords, it's not going to
segregate and make ice lensesand stuff like that, then you're
probably fine.
But if you've got siltymaterials and stuff, you are
going to get frost segregationin there and you're going to get
(17:27):
ice and stuff as the groundfreezes.
And then, of course, iceexpands 9%, not just a couple.
Nine is a lot of percent whenyou think about it.
So things move around quite abit.
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Shannon Oelkers (18:43):
Well, and now that you've said that, I'm
thinking about pipelines thatI've seen and how much they move
in a season as well.
And so cross-jacking probablyimpacts your pipelines more than
your tank.
I also just want to brieflymention for those of us with
tanks that are smaller, asmaller diameter tank may not
drape or settle, but it maystart tilting just because the
(19:06):
physics are tighter.
So excessive tilt can also bean indication of permafrost
impacts if you're reading thatAPI 653 report.
I also want to I just want tomake a shout out for those of
you that receive API 653reports.
There's almost always asettlement report included with
an internal API 653 for an API653 external, it's not always
(19:30):
included.
And if you are in a permafrostsusceptible zone, you should
probably ask for it to be done.
I know it's not always easy todo because you may have a liner
that covers the chine of yourtank, and you've got to remove
that liner to be able to do thatsettlement survey.
But sometimes internal surveysare 20 years apart.
And I don't know that if youlive, if you your tank lives in
a place that is susceptible topermafrost, you want to wait 20
(19:53):
years to find out how much it'stilting.
You might want that every fiveyears from the external.
So just a public serviceannouncement for those of you
that are subject to API 653.
So, Ed, everything we justtalked about is a pretty serious
impact and very expensive tocorrect.
And sometimes that's an if itcan be corrected at all.
What can companies do whendesigning constructing new tanks
(20:17):
to prevent or avoid foundationsettlement if they know or
suspect that permafrost is goingto be an issue there?
Ed Yarmak (20:23):
I've got some new tank stuff here on my desk.
Call Ed.
Call Ed, that's the first step.
I mean, you're basically, youknow, if you're putting that the
kind of money that you have toput into a POL project now,
you're gonna have a chieftechnical engineer, they're
going to look at it, they'regoing to say, hey, there's
(20:45):
potentially a problem.
And a lot of times the way tosolve that problem is to use
thermosipons underneath thetank.
Big tanks, we use these thingscalled flat lip thermosipons,
and you can lay them on theground, that's just cat tracked.
We like them to be flat, wetell the uh contractors that
(21:07):
they have to be within an inchvertical as they're put in.
They'll actually work with moreundulation than that, but
that's where we want to get ituh thing started.
And then the idea is just topull enough heat out from
underneath the tank, and thenthere's gonna have to be
probably be some insul aninsulation layer in there too.
(21:28):
But we we're just trying tomake the permafrost that's below
us think that it's just normalwinter up on top.
And sometimes we supercool itto be a little bit colder
because sometimes in a placewhere we're at, those soils
aren't all that scout just darkwithin there a little bit better
(21:50):
when they're frozen, frozenharder.
So do that.
Smaller tanks can be if you'reusing thermosiphons, they can be
put in with slopingthermosyphons that go in from
the side.
Some of those we canmanufacture them here in
Anchorage or ship them out asstraight units, they're all
(22:10):
charged, they can be bent in thefield and installed.
But when you do that, thenyou've got these condensers
sticking up that the tankcorrector has to work around and
stuff.
So there's trade-offs there.
That is usually the lowest costif it's a small tank and stuff
like that.
(22:31):
Otherwise, the flat loops tendto be uh lower cost.
If you have a old tank, suspectthat it's settling and you
can't move it or anything likethat, then the drilling people
come out and make money to putthermosipons or something else
(22:52):
underneath the tank.
Shannon Oelkers (22:53):
Usually, yes.
So so usually tanks that areolder and larger diameter, you
can't just lift the tank up,move it somewhere, lay your flat
siphons underneath it, and thenput the tank back.
I mean, you can, but there's alot of logistics in the way.
So could you talk a little bitabout so you and I did a project
recently where they didhorizontal drilling essentially
(23:16):
to lay the flat loops inunderneath tanks that had
already been constructed.
How did that work?
Ed Yarmak (23:22):
Well, it seemed to work pretty well.
Although they weren't flatloops, they were long sloping it
back for their but they werethey were long, they're very
long.
The horizontal drillingcontractor used a technique
that's pretty common for a lotof utility work and stuff, where
(23:43):
they use a drilling mud to holdthe hole open.
They drill the hole and thenthey push the thermosiph into
the hole, and that would thedrilling mud would come back out
back to the hole opening there.
Then they could clean thatstuff up.
And then the thermosipon wasinstalled.
(24:03):
You just have to make sure itwas turned in the right
direction and stuff.
Those almost always go out inpieces, and we have to put stuff
together to field.
I believe those units were 80or 90 feet long that went
underneath the tanks.
They were made in a long L.
And the L was a component thatcan be used for active
(24:25):
refrigeration should things getwarm or yet, and we can't just
rely on natural refrigerationthat they can be plugged into
the active system.
Shannon Oelkers (24:37):
Can you talk more about that active system,
Ed?
Because the passive system iswhat we talked about earlier,
but these thermosyphons inparticular, they kind of have
like a backup feature in casethe ambient air temperature is
not enough, right?
How does the secondarycomponent work there?
Ed Yarmak (24:53):
You know, it's just again, it's it's really simple
because you know, simple is thething that always works.
It's just a coil on the insideof the unit you can expand
refrigerant into, and so you'rejust making winter on the inside
of the refrigerator, or on theinside of the thermosyphon
instead of otherwise.
(25:13):
And you don't have to dischargethe thermosphone or do anything
else with it, you just have toturn the turn the system on when
you when you do it.
And so you can get all of yourpassive refrigeration in the
winter time, and at thatparticular project you're
talking about, they usually turnthat stuff on in maybe June or
(25:36):
something like that, and they'llbe turning it off about the end
of October, you know, so in acouple of weeks.
So and that's and I don't knowthat they on those particular
units that they really need torun them that long, but they're
their the refrigeration systemis pretty small because they do
(25:58):
have a good insulation blanket,and so they're just willing to
pay just a little bit extra forpower for security in their
case.
Shannon Oelkers (26:07):
Well, and security into the next 50 years,
because from my understandingof the economics, is permafrost
is going to warm and that lensis going to once once the lens
begins to melt, it's going tocontinue to melt.
And so the slowing of thatmelting is critical.
And correct me if I'm wrong,but I remember from a lot of our
(26:29):
discussions, at some pointthere's an inversion, right,
where it melts and then you canslow it down, but at some point
it becomes faster at melting.
Am I remembering thatcorrectly?
Ed Yarmak (26:40):
No, really, what we have is when the permafrost
thaws, there's an annual thawthat we get.
And the only reason permafrostis there is because we have
winters that are very cold.
And we freeze everything upthat thaws and make it colder.
(27:00):
And that's why the farthernorth you go, the deeper the
permafrost is and stuff.
So when you come back to theseareas that we're looking at,
things are gonna thaw.
If they have a passive systemworking on them, at some time,
if the world keeps warming up,as some people say it is, we're
(27:20):
not gonna have enough cold tokeep it cold on there.
And so they are gonna have toturn those active refrigeration
on, you know, just to keep thepermafrost there.
And when you look at things wayout in the future there, you
know, 50, 60 years, it's reallyhard to say exactly what's going
(27:46):
to happen.
We try to do our best, we tryto be very conservative about
it, but it at some time, thesepassive units, they're just not
gonna have enough capacity onthem.
We've already gone in someareas and made the passive units
larger.
And that's you know, that'llcarry them on for another 20 or
(28:07):
30 years or so.
But at some time, it's just notgonna work, and there's gonna
be a decision from the owner onwhat are they gonna do with this
facility?
Are they going to try to keepan ice cube in the desert or are
they just gonna build a newfacility or move their facility
(28:29):
or something like that?
You know, it's it's kind ofit's hard to look that far out
and be accurate.
Shannon Oelkers (28:38):
You don't have a crystal ball, Ed.
Ed Yarmak (28:42):
I use I use the UAF SNAP community charts or climate
change stuff to try to look atthat sort of thing.
But again, it's just a bestguess type thing.
And so we don't know what'swhat and when things are gonna
(29:05):
happen out there.
Recently there was some workdone in Diopic, not for tanks,
but for permaf basically forpermafrost thaw.
The scientists went to thecommunity folks, at least the
commute some of the communityleaders, and they say, well,
you're gonna have some problemsout here at the turn of the next
(29:28):
century.
And the community leaders aresaying, our people are very
adaptable.
We don't really want to belooking at what's happening in
the next 80 years.
We need to know what's going onin 20 years.
We can plant for 20 years andstuff.
So that's what a lot of peopleare doing.
Shannon Oelkers (29:48):
Okay.
Yep.
Although I live in tank landwhere an asset's supposed to
last 100 years, theoretically.
We do have some assets thathave lasted a hundred years.
We've got a few tanks that arefrom the 19 teens and 20s.
They typically are not innorthern climates though.
Ed Yarmak (30:11):
There's tanks at Thule Air Base in Greenland that
when I visited in the late 80shad been they were empty because
they weren't doing B-52 flightsout of Thule all the time and
they had a bunch of empty tanks.
But all of their tanks had hugewinds on the upwind side.
(30:32):
And so they had to had torepair all those things if they
were going to use them.
And I, you know, looking atGoogle Earth, that you know, I'd
seen that a lot of those havebeen removed and stuff.
And maybe they repaired otherones, but there's you know other
things that happen in theArctic and again like the wind
(30:53):
or if the tanks would have beenfull, they probably would have
been fine.
Shannon Oelkers (30:57):
Hundred percent, yep.
No, there's stiffener ringsthat can help with that wind
damage, but you have tocalculate it and it's got to be
engineered and you have to knowthe climate and the location.
And they were older tanks, theyjust didn't calculate that
stuff in the 1950s, andhonestly, they may not have
known.
They probably showed up inGreenland and built a tank that
day.
Ed Yarmak (31:18):
That's probably what they did.
And the year before that we hadbeen there was when the the
dents came.
We were told that they thoughtthey were going to eclipse the
Mount Washington speed recordfor airspeed uh on land, but the
anemometer uh shack uh blewout.
Shannon Oelkers (31:40):
We work in ADAC a lot, and that happens almost
every time they have a bigstorm.
It like reaches the new recordand then the wind thing blows
off the building, and then theythink they don't know how high
it goes.
I do want to talk brieflyabout, you know, we're talking
about permafrost, and I feellike we should also talk about
pipelines.
I briefly mentioned it with thejacking, but permafrost affects
(32:00):
pipelines as well.
And if you've got tanks, you'vegot pipelines.
Have thermosiphons been used toaddress that for above and
below grade piping?
Ed Yarmak (32:08):
Well, the largest example for above-grade piping
is the Trans-Alaska pipeline.
They've got 120,000thermosiphons that they bought
from Grand X McDonnell Douglason that line.
They did a real good job of youknow doing their design and
redundancy factor.
And look, that pipeline'salmost 50 years old and stuff
(32:30):
there.
Shannon Oelkers (32:31):
And it's running warm crude through it,
right?
Yeah.
Ed Yarmak (32:36):
And some people they used to say that, oh, they
needed that stuff because of thewarm crude.
Well, the warm crude took careof itself because it was, you
know, 10 feet off the ground.
But in the ground, it was whenit was put in the ground, it was
put in in falstable material.
(32:56):
Or there's some areas where thewhere that pipeline was dug
down to foster materials beneatheasily uh you know 25 feet iC
silk.
Shannon Oelkers (33:10):
Oh so they leveraged geotechnical reports
to put it in where it made themost sense.
Yeah, it's the geotechs andstuff.
Ed Yarmak (33:18):
Yeah.
You know, in these small areas,the small tank areas and stuff,
you know, a lot of times if theinstead of just making a
thermosiphon system for a tank,they'll make the thermosiphon
system for the whole tank andimpoundment area.
And so all of your piping willsit on top of that in the
(33:41):
impoundment area.
And so that's gonna berelatively stable in there.
You still have to get out ofthere somewhere, so there's
gonna be things moving around,and you want to make sure that
whatever you're you're buildingis gonna be able to move or flex
or whatever in there.
You know, we don't want it tolook like the tank farm in
(34:04):
Selwick did in like 1982 withall of these little vertical
tanks tilted all over with woodblocks underneath of them trying
to get them to be stable androot hoses in various conditions
and stuff.
It was a pretty ugly, uh, ugly,ugly tank barn at that time.
Shannon Oelkers (34:27):
I would like to say that that image that you
just painted is something thatexisted in the 1980s and is no
longer, but I cannot say that.
I have definitely seen sometanks that are in similar
straits right now.
And I think the takeaway isthat anytime you have pipeline
points that need to be stable,like for example, where it
(34:48):
connects to the tank or it goesup and over a containment wall
of some kind, you need tostabilize that whole section
because if the pipe is movingand the wall is moving and the
tank is moving, it's not goingto end well for any of those
three parts.
And there's gonna be a lot ofstress and tension on your
system.
The rest of a pipeline ispretty mobile, and that's why
(35:09):
pipeline supports exist.
And pipelines are made ofductile steel because they're
very flexible.
And you can adjust the pipelineas it runs over ground, but
once it gets to where it'sconnecting to the tank or within
the tankyard, your flexibilitygoes down and it becomes more
important to stabilize things.
Thank you for giving us thatthorough overview of this very
(35:29):
Arctic-specific issue.
I was wondering if you had anyresources for our listeners that
they want to learn more aboutthis, especially if they're
responsible for tanks in apermafrost area.
Ed Yarmak (35:40):
Oh, resources.
Shannon Oelkers (35:42):
You mentioned a SNAP website earlier.
Ed Yarmak (35:46):
Yeah, that's the UAF SNAP uh website.
It's a scenario, it's somethingthat they do for climate
scenarios and stuff.
It's a great place to see wherethey think your climate is
going.
And it's good for Alaska,Yukon, and Northwest
Territories.
So unfortunately, it's youcan't get there's no information
(36:09):
for other places, and it's hardto get other Arctic information
from other places too.
Looking at if you wereinterested in permafrost and
what your papers on and lookingfor papers and stuff, a couple
of very good places to look atare at the United States
(36:29):
Permafrost Association'swebsite, and that's
USpermafrost.org.
They have resources,publications and stuff, some old
uh permafrost conferences andthings.
And you can also go to plainpermafrost.org, which is the
International PermafrostAssociation's site.
(36:52):
Oh all the old conferences, theuh proceedings are there and
stuff, and you can you can seehow people built stuff a long
time ago and now stuff.
It's pretty interesting.
Shannon Oelkers (37:06):
Yeah, I was really fascinated when you and I
worked together, and which iswhy you're here.
I wanted to learn more about itand dig deeper into it.
But yeah, I think there'splenty of case studies about
tanks out there on some of thosewebsites, so I'll see if I can
dig one up and attach it as areference.
Ed Yarmak (37:24):
Yeah, the absolute the Narilsk site in Russia, it
was one of the worst disastersthat came from from a tank.
Shannon Oelkers (37:33):
How big was that tank?
Ed Yarmak (37:34):
Several million gallons.
It was not anything like wehave out in the normal villages.
Maybe it would be the size ofone of the tanks in red dogs.
Oh, okay.
Those are big tanks up there.
Shannon Oelkers (37:50):
All right.
Well, Ed, thank you so much foryour time today.
If people want to reach out toyou, how best could they get a
hold of you?
Ed Yarmak (37:58):
Well, the best thing to do is just to go to our
company website,ArcticFoundations.com, and hit
the info button.
That's the easiest way.
And then it'll come in andsomebody will look at it and
they'll say, oh, Ed needs to seethis.
Or if they have needs thatsomebody else can handle here,
we'll be able to take care of.
Shannon Oelkers (38:19):
Awesome.
Ed, thank you so much for yourtime today.
I appreciate you sharing yourknowledge.
Ed Yarmak (38:24):
Thank you, Shannon.
Have a great day.
Shannon Oelkers (38:27):
Yep, you too.
Hi there.
This is Shannon Olker.
And as the owner of IntegrityEnvironmental, I wanted to take
a minute here at the end of thepodcast to make sure that you
knew the following.
This podcast is forinformational purposes only and
should not be considered legalor regulatory advice.
We are not responsible for anylosses, damages, or liabilities
(38:48):
that may arise from the use ofthis podcast.
This podcast is not intended toreplace professional regulatory
or legal advice.
And the views expressed in thispodcast may not be those of the
host, that would be me, orintegrity environmental.
Thank you very much forlistening.
And if you do need professionalregulatory advice, we'd be
happy to help you as part of ourconsulting services.
Welcome to Tank Talk with Integrity Environmental.
Join us as we sit down withfounder, principal consultant,
and bulk fuel storage expertShannon Oelkers to explore
regulations, safety, andessential tips for navigating
the full fuel storage industry.
Join us as we explore theunique joys of work and life in
Alaska with industry experts,including our team, vendors we
(00:30):
work with, and the companies wesupport.
Shannon Oelkers (00:36):
Welcome to Tank Talk Podcast.
Hello listeners.
As you know, we work in Alaskain addition to the Pacific
Northwest and Hawaii.
Many regions in Alaska aresubject to permafrost conditions
in the soils.
I wanted to briefly go overwhat permafrost was in case
you're unfamiliar.
Permafrost is permanentlyfrozen soil layers that are
stable when frozen, but as theymelt, the soils are trapped
(00:58):
within the frozen lands subsideand cause a whole lot of
settlement for anything built ontop of them.
Maintaining that frost layerbecomes really important for
long-term infrastructure,especially things like fuel
storage tanks and pipelines, forexample.
For much of Alaska, the way tocontrol permafrost subsidence is
to maintain that permafrostlayer with a technology called
(01:19):
thermosiphons.
Today, I am very fortunate tohave Ed Yarmak from Arctic
Foundations Inc.
to explore one of the criticaltools to maintaining permafrost
that are utilized in industrialfacilities across Alaska,
Canada, Russia, China, and more.
Arctic Foundations is aninternational leader in heat
transfer and ground freezingsystems.
Welcome to the show, Ed.
(01:40):
Could you please tell ourlisteners a little bit about
your background and how you gotinvolved in this unique
industry?
Ed Yarmak (01:45):
Good morning, Shannon, and thank you for uh
inviting me to the show.
It was a long time ago, saymaybe 44, 45 years ago, I was
just happening to be having anevening talk with my an
engineering mentor, Earth Long,who owned Earth Arctic
Foundations at the time, and hesaid, How much do you want to
(02:08):
come to work for in dollars?
I was a demolition and did notask for a raise from where I was
working at the time.
But I sort of jumped at thechance.
And so really, I just kind offell into this, and it's been
kind of an exciting ride eversince.
What kind of engineeringbackground do you have at I have
(02:29):
a civil engineering degree fromthe University of Alaska and a
master of engineering degree ingeotechnical engineering from
the University of California?
So I know dirt pretty well.
Almost all of permafrost Ilearned on the job.
Shannon Oelkers (02:49):
When did you first see permafrost?
Did you grow up in Alaska ordid you come up here for school?
Ed Yarmak (02:54):
Oh, I was born here in Alaska a long time ago.
You know, and I think the firsttime I saw permafrost was out
hunting with my dad stuff,caribou hunting and probably in
the area stuff.
Later on, as I was going toschool, we even found some
permafrost in Anchorage.
I was doing land surveying topay my way through college, and
(03:19):
we'd find frozen material inlate August and probably.
So it was interesting.
Of course, you know, most ofAnchorage has been developed in
many of the areas that had thefrozen soil have h been thawed
out now.
But there still is permafrostin Anchorage.
Shannon Oelkers (03:39):
I actually have heard that.
Ed Yarmak (03:46):
Yeah.
You might recall there weresome buildings built along uh
the lower end of Firelakeseveral years ago, and then they
they settled and stuff.
And that was there waspermafrost underneath there.
There was also the on-ramp tothe Glen Highway right there.
The state had stripped all theground and put tar on the ground
(04:10):
to make it black to get thesummer's heat in and thaw off
the permafrost there.
Shannon Oelkers (04:15):
Speed up the process.
Yeah.
Forgive me, but the underlyingissue for Arctic facilities is
that there are continuous andfractured lenses of permafrost
or just permanently frozenground.
But I think nowadays it'sprobably more these fractured
lenses, and they lie underneathmany of these industrial
buildings and infrastructurethat you and I work with.
(04:35):
And the heat generated by thosestructures causes that layer to
thaw over time, like you justsaid.
Could you give us just a briefoverview of this Arctic
condition and how yourthermosiphon technology
addresses that issue?
Ed Yarmak (04:48):
Okay.
Well, we kind of have to goback to the beginning there.
And to understand the issue, weneed to know how this material
was formed.
Because a lot of people saypermafrost.
And permafrost is by thescientists, it's just soil or
rock that's been frozen for overtwo years.
(05:11):
And so then you say, okay,well, how is this soil formed?
And how is the or the rock orwhatever?
And sometimes you get reallylucky and you've got a big plane
of gravel, and it could befrozen, and you can build on top
of it, and it can thaw out, andnothing's gonna move.
(05:31):
And you always get reallylucky.
But other times you're gonnahave fine-grain materials that
when it gets cold on top, thewater segregates into ice
lenses.
Sometimes you've been farenough north where you've seen
patterned ground, and that'swhere the gets so cold that the
(05:52):
ground shrinks and it cracks,and then water goes into those
cracks.
And then you make thesevertical ice lenses or ice
wedges that go down into thesoil, and they grow as the years
go on.
And then when you go to try tobuild something on top, it
generally will have problemsunless you're you know thermally
(06:12):
treating that.
I mean, there's our system andthere's other systems to treat
the permafrost, the thermaline,but generally our system tends
to work because it doesn'trequire any.
The thermosiphon devices thatwe build are all based on
(06:33):
two-phase technology.
So if you can imagine that youhave a tube in the ground that
comes up out of the ground, andin that tube is a refrigerant.
We use carbon dioxide generallyfor our refrigerant, and so
there's some liquid refrigerantin the bottom of that tube, and
(06:54):
the rest of it is filled withvapor, kind of like a half-empty
tank or something like that, oreven lower.
So it's just, and there'snothing else in there.
And so whenever it gets cold ontop, that vapor condenses, and
that's releasing heat to the airthrough the pipe wall, and the
(07:15):
condensate wants to roll down,wants to go down to the bottom
by gravity.
Of course, when it condenses,it slightly lowers the pressure
on the inside of the vessel, andthe liquid on the bottom boils,
and that absorbs heat from theground, and the condensate rolls
(07:36):
down the wall, and anytime ithits something that's warmer
than it is, it re-evaporates.
And this cycle just goes on aslong as the air is cold or
colder than the ground.
The uh air is not colder thanthe ground, nothing happens.
It doesn't work in reverse.
So they're a very simplemachine with no moving parts,
(07:58):
basically.
They require minimalmaintenance other than just to
make sure things are working.
Shannon Oelkers (08:04):
You know, Ed, I have seen hundreds of those
thermosiphones.
I've helped install them onprojects, and I always thought
they were full of fluid.
I had no idea that they hadvapor in them, and that was the
driving heat sink.
Ed Yarmak (08:18):
There are fluid systems that are out there,
Shannon.
And the issue with a fluidsystem is it has it's all fluid,
and so it has a lot of internalresistance to have to overcome
to get that fluid to turn overand move.
I mean, you could a big fluidsystem, you could just say it
(08:38):
might be a fuel tank that's outthere that's sitting on the
ground, you fill it full offuel, and then it gets cold
outside, the fuel around theoutside of that tank will fall
to the bottom, and the otherstuff will rise in the middle.
That's sort of how the liquidthermosiphons work.
There's a whole lot of them inRussia, and they're usually over
(09:02):
there, they're usually uh theyuse kerosene as the inside.
Oh so it doesn't freeze andit'll work and stuff like that.
But they don't work that good.
Say, let's let's just say thatyou know the amount of heat
transfer that you can get out ofa two-phase unit is easily ten
(09:23):
times, which you can get out ofa single phase unit.
Shannon Oelkers (09:27):
And it's two-phase being your the gas to
liquid model versus a solelyliquid.
Exactly.
When and if your uhthermosyphins get damaged, all
they do is leak CO2 as well.
I would imagine that's abenefit also.
Yeah.
Ed Yarmak (09:41):
When somebody runs into one with a truck or a
loader or something like that,it's pretty benign, unless it's
inside where you know then it'salso fixing agent hazardous.
But you know, outside, it's allpretty benign.
If they can patch the hole orat least get it covered up and
stuff, everything can berepaired.
Shannon Oelkers (10:04):
Well, thank you.
That is a good 10,000-footoverview of how we're keeping
things cold below the ground.
For all our project managersout there, how do we know that
permafrost is going to be anissue at a project site?
Ed Yarmak (10:17):
Your best friend probably is your geotechnical
engineer that's on the project.
And the civil engineer and thegeotechnical engineer should
have gone through and doneinvestigation and stuff like
that to, you know, for if you'relooking at a new tank and
stuff, if you've got old tanksand stuff that were put out
(10:39):
there, sometimes you just don'tknow exactly what was there.
When we were working with anold tank in Greenland at
Saundestrom Fjord Airbase, youknow, it was built in the middle
50s, and the ground wasprobably 25 degrees Fahrenheit
at that time.
(10:59):
It was a fuel tank.
When we got to it, it was beingused for uh for jet fuel.
But so if you go from themiddle 50s, they didn't really
have problems with this thing onpermafrost with no other
abatement measures for heatuntil into the 2010s.
(11:22):
But in 2015, they determinedthere was an issue and that they
had to take the tank out ofservice.
And instead of putting somesort of device underneath of it
or changing the design to keepthings cool, they just rebuilt
the tank.
They put in, they leveledeverything out, they put in a
(11:43):
brand new beautiful bottom and awhole ring of the bottom row of
plates on the tank and put itback in service.
And so by the time 2019 rolledaround, there were more issues
with it.
And, you know, things weremoving, and the tank inspectors
were saying, hey, we we can keepthis for now, but we need to
(12:07):
really be watching it becausethere's some serious issues with
the tank.
The owner of the tank, whichstarted with the U.S.
Air Force and then it went offto be an aviation fuel supplier.
They just couldn't find it intheir budget to fix this tank.
And so the good thing thathappened is they now have a
(12:29):
runway that can get really bigjet planes into Greenland at
Nook instead of at the old AirForce base there.
And so they don't need the tankanymore.
So it's just gonna sit thereand rock.
Shannon Oelkers (12:44):
Rest in peace, little tank in Greenland.
You could have been saved.
Ed Yarmak (12:49):
Actually, a pretty big tank, but you know.
Shannon Oelkers (12:52):
RIP big tank.
So permafrost is something youcan't necessarily see with your
eyeballs.
You're gonna have to havegeotechnical reports to know.
And for our listeners that havefacilities with older tanks,
especially in the Arctic zone,it may be there underneath your
tank right now and it may becomea problem in the future.
For most of our listeners,though, if you own a tank,
(13:14):
you're gonna know about aproblem with permafrost when you
get an API 653 report thatshows tank settlement.
That's typically where it comesin.
That's where you know get thediagnosis.
Now, I do want to do publicservice announcement.
Not all tank settlement is dueto permafrost.
Tanks can settle for otherreasons, including foundation
degradation and all sorts ofstuff like that.
(13:35):
But generally, if you've gotsignificant tank subsidence or
settlement, there's a problemwith the foundation, and that
may be related to permafrost.
So let's talk about permafrostand tank settlement
specifically, because you and Ihave worked together on at least
one project with permafrostsettlement.
What happens to a tank when theground underneath it starts to
(13:57):
settle, Ed?
Ed Yarmak (13:59):
Well, a tank deforms.
And tanks are, you know, theylook like really stout
structures, but with the amountof fuel and weight and
everything else in them, they'reactually a little delicate.
If you see, I mean, look, Ithink the worst tank disaster
that I've heard of or and seenphotos of was the Narils diesel
(14:23):
tank in Russia that went down afew years ago.
And some people blamed it onclimate change and permafrost
thaw.
Turns out that actually thetank wasn't built the way it was
supposed to be built.
The ring wall of the tank wassupposed to have been supported
on piling that went all the wayto bedrock, and they didn't
(14:45):
quite get there.
And so they were supported inthe permafrost, and then as the
permafrost warmed up, then theysettled enough.
And if you look at the photosof that tank after it failed, I
mean it ruptured, and then asthe fuel went out, it just
sucked the rest of the steeldown toward it.
(15:07):
It turned it into a big twistedmass.
That's about the worst thing Ithink that can happen to your
tank.
So I think it's a really goodidea that people keep checking
about their tanks all the time.
Shannon Oelkers (15:20):
Agreed, agreed.
And we'll try to include photosof that tank for in our show
notes so people can see the itwas the Norelskope in Russia.
Ed Yarmak (15:31):
Norelsk.
I'm gonna look at this idea.
I can see the perfect.
Shannon Oelkers (15:37):
All right, so I'm imagining that tank is
pretty large.
So for larger tanks, we'regonna see settlement that
includes things like draping orlower on one side, higher on the
other.
And like you said, that's veryhard for a tank to handle
because a lot of the physics ofa tank for holding the weight of
the fuel relies on the shell tobe round in shape.
(15:58):
And when that roundness, whenthe tank becomes out of round,
it's weaker.
Just like it's easier to crusha soda pop can from the side
than it is from the top and thebottom.
Once the foundation startssinking on a tank, it's uh much
more susceptible to damage.
And then one thing I want tomake clear for permafrost, it's
not just sinking, right?
You can get jacking as well.
Ed Yarmak (16:20):
Well, you know, maybe around the edge of a tank if
you've got frost susceptiblesoils.
And so you've got you haveyou'd basically it'd be the same
frost heave that you'd get ifthe tank wasn't there, but it
would be close to the edge, soyou'd have something that would
be pushing up around the edge.
Kind of like people may have agarage that's that they have
(16:45):
that's unheated.
They they find that their floormoves around in the garage with
the seasons and stuff.
So that's a seasonal thing.
I see.
And you can kind of fix that,at least some of it, by using
some insulation on the outsideof the tank and just protecting
(17:05):
the ground from the frost there.
Now, if you've got goodgranular material that's
non-frost susceptible, in otherwords, it's not going to
segregate and make ice lensesand stuff like that, then you're
probably fine.
But if you've got siltymaterials and stuff, you are
going to get frost segregationin there and you're going to get
(17:27):
ice and stuff as the groundfreezes.
And then, of course, iceexpands 9%, not just a couple.
Nine is a lot of percent whenyou think about it.
So things move around quite abit.
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Shannon Oelkers (18:43):
Well, and now that you've said that, I'm
thinking about pipelines thatI've seen and how much they move
in a season as well.
And so cross-jacking probablyimpacts your pipelines more than
your tank.
I also just want to brieflymention for those of us with
tanks that are smaller, asmaller diameter tank may not
drape or settle, but it maystart tilting just because the
(19:06):
physics are tighter.
So excessive tilt can also bean indication of permafrost
impacts if you're reading thatAPI 653 report.
I also want to I just want tomake a shout out for those of
you that receive API 653reports.
There's almost always asettlement report included with
an internal API 653 for an API653 external, it's not always
(19:30):
included.
And if you are in a permafrostsusceptible zone, you should
probably ask for it to be done.
I know it's not always easy todo because you may have a liner
that covers the chine of yourtank, and you've got to remove
that liner to be able to do thatsettlement survey.
But sometimes internal surveysare 20 years apart.
And I don't know that if youlive, if you your tank lives in
a place that is susceptible topermafrost, you want to wait 20
(19:53):
years to find out how much it'stilting.
You might want that every fiveyears from the external.
So just a public serviceannouncement for those of you
that are subject to API 653.
So, Ed, everything we justtalked about is a pretty serious
impact and very expensive tocorrect.
And sometimes that's an if itcan be corrected at all.
What can companies do whendesigning constructing new tanks
(20:17):
to prevent or avoid foundationsettlement if they know or
suspect that permafrost is goingto be an issue there?
Ed Yarmak (20:23):
I've got some new tank stuff here on my desk.
Call Ed.
Call Ed, that's the first step.
I mean, you're basically, youknow, if you're putting that the
kind of money that you have toput into a POL project now,
you're gonna have a chieftechnical engineer, they're
going to look at it, they'regoing to say, hey, there's
(20:45):
potentially a problem.
And a lot of times the way tosolve that problem is to use
thermosipons underneath thetank.
Big tanks, we use these thingscalled flat lip thermosipons,
and you can lay them on theground, that's just cat tracked.
We like them to be flat, wetell the uh contractors that
(21:07):
they have to be within an inchvertical as they're put in.
They'll actually work with moreundulation than that, but
that's where we want to get ituh thing started.
And then the idea is just topull enough heat out from
underneath the tank, and thenthere's gonna have to be
probably be some insul aninsulation layer in there too.
(21:28):
But we we're just trying tomake the permafrost that's below
us think that it's just normalwinter up on top.
And sometimes we supercool itto be a little bit colder
because sometimes in a placewhere we're at, those soils
aren't all that scout just darkwithin there a little bit better
(21:50):
when they're frozen, frozenharder.
So do that.
Smaller tanks can be if you'reusing thermosiphons, they can be
put in with slopingthermosyphons that go in from
the side.
Some of those we canmanufacture them here in
Anchorage or ship them out asstraight units, they're all
(22:10):
charged, they can be bent in thefield and installed.
But when you do that, thenyou've got these condensers
sticking up that the tankcorrector has to work around and
stuff.
So there's trade-offs there.
That is usually the lowest costif it's a small tank and stuff
like that.
(22:31):
Otherwise, the flat loops tendto be uh lower cost.
If you have a old tank, suspectthat it's settling and you
can't move it or anything likethat, then the drilling people
come out and make money to putthermosipons or something else
(22:52):
underneath the tank.
Shannon Oelkers (22:53):
Usually, yes.
So so usually tanks that areolder and larger diameter, you
can't just lift the tank up,move it somewhere, lay your flat
siphons underneath it, and thenput the tank back.
I mean, you can, but there's alot of logistics in the way.
So could you talk a little bitabout so you and I did a project
recently where they didhorizontal drilling essentially
(23:16):
to lay the flat loops inunderneath tanks that had
already been constructed.
How did that work?
Ed Yarmak (23:22):
Well, it seemed to work pretty well.
Although they weren't flatloops, they were long sloping it
back for their but they werethey were long, they're very
long.
The horizontal drillingcontractor used a technique
that's pretty common for a lotof utility work and stuff, where
(23:43):
they use a drilling mud to holdthe hole open.
They drill the hole and thenthey push the thermosiph into
the hole, and that would thedrilling mud would come back out
back to the hole opening there.
Then they could clean thatstuff up.
And then the thermosipon wasinstalled.
(24:03):
You just have to make sure itwas turned in the right
direction and stuff.
Those almost always go out inpieces, and we have to put stuff
together to field.
I believe those units were 80or 90 feet long that went
underneath the tanks.
They were made in a long L.
And the L was a component thatcan be used for active
(24:25):
refrigeration should things getwarm or yet, and we can't just
rely on natural refrigerationthat they can be plugged into
the active system.
Shannon Oelkers (24:37):
Can you talk more about that active system,
Ed?
Because the passive system iswhat we talked about earlier,
but these thermosyphons inparticular, they kind of have
like a backup feature in casethe ambient air temperature is
not enough, right?
How does the secondarycomponent work there?
Ed Yarmak (24:53):
You know, it's just again, it's it's really simple
because you know, simple is thething that always works.
It's just a coil on the insideof the unit you can expand
refrigerant into, and so you'rejust making winter on the inside
of the refrigerator, or on theinside of the thermosyphon
instead of otherwise.
(25:13):
And you don't have to dischargethe thermosphone or do anything
else with it, you just have toturn the turn the system on when
you when you do it.
And so you can get all of yourpassive refrigeration in the
winter time, and at thatparticular project you're
talking about, they usually turnthat stuff on in maybe June or
(25:36):
something like that, and they'llbe turning it off about the end
of October, you know, so in acouple of weeks.
So and that's and I don't knowthat they on those particular
units that they really need torun them that long, but they're
their the refrigeration systemis pretty small because they do
(25:58):
have a good insulation blanket,and so they're just willing to
pay just a little bit extra forpower for security in their
case.
Shannon Oelkers (26:07):
Well, and security into the next 50 years,
because from my understandingof the economics, is permafrost
is going to warm and that lensis going to once once the lens
begins to melt, it's going tocontinue to melt.
And so the slowing of thatmelting is critical.
And correct me if I'm wrong,but I remember from a lot of our
(26:29):
discussions, at some pointthere's an inversion, right,
where it melts and then you canslow it down, but at some point
it becomes faster at melting.
Am I remembering thatcorrectly?
Ed Yarmak (26:40):
No, really, what we have is when the permafrost
thaws, there's an annual thawthat we get.
And the only reason permafrostis there is because we have
winters that are very cold.
And we freeze everything upthat thaws and make it colder.
(27:00):
And that's why the farthernorth you go, the deeper the
permafrost is and stuff.
So when you come back to theseareas that we're looking at,
things are gonna thaw.
If they have a passive systemworking on them, at some time,
if the world keeps warming up,as some people say it is, we're
(27:20):
not gonna have enough cold tokeep it cold on there.
And so they are gonna have toturn those active refrigeration
on, you know, just to keep thepermafrost there.
And when you look at things wayout in the future there, you
know, 50, 60 years, it's reallyhard to say exactly what's going
(27:46):
to happen.
We try to do our best, we tryto be very conservative about
it, but it at some time, thesepassive units, they're just not
gonna have enough capacity onthem.
We've already gone in someareas and made the passive units
larger.
And that's you know, that'llcarry them on for another 20 or
(28:07):
30 years or so.
But at some time, it's just notgonna work, and there's gonna
be a decision from the owner onwhat are they gonna do with this
facility?
Are they going to try to keepan ice cube in the desert or are
they just gonna build a newfacility or move their facility
(28:29):
or something like that?
You know, it's it's kind ofit's hard to look that far out
and be accurate.
Shannon Oelkers (28:38):
You don't have a crystal ball, Ed.
Ed Yarmak (28:42):
I use I use the UAF SNAP community charts or climate
change stuff to try to look atthat sort of thing.
But again, it's just a bestguess type thing.
And so we don't know what'swhat and when things are gonna
(29:05):
happen out there.
Recently there was some workdone in Diopic, not for tanks,
but for permaf basically forpermafrost thaw.
The scientists went to thecommunity folks, at least the
commute some of the communityleaders, and they say, well,
you're gonna have some problemsout here at the turn of the next
(29:28):
century.
And the community leaders aresaying, our people are very
adaptable.
We don't really want to belooking at what's happening in
the next 80 years.
We need to know what's going onin 20 years.
We can plant for 20 years andstuff.
So that's what a lot of peopleare doing.
Shannon Oelkers (29:48):
Okay.
Yep.
Although I live in tank landwhere an asset's supposed to
last 100 years, theoretically.
We do have some assets thathave lasted a hundred years.
We've got a few tanks that arefrom the 19 teens and 20s.
They typically are not innorthern climates though.
Ed Yarmak (30:11):
There's tanks at Thule Air Base in Greenland that
when I visited in the late 80shad been they were empty because
they weren't doing B-52 flightsout of Thule all the time and
they had a bunch of empty tanks.
But all of their tanks had hugewinds on the upwind side.
(30:32):
And so they had to had torepair all those things if they
were going to use them.
And I, you know, looking atGoogle Earth, that you know, I'd
seen that a lot of those havebeen removed and stuff.
And maybe they repaired otherones, but there's you know other
things that happen in theArctic and again like the wind
(30:53):
or if the tanks would have beenfull, they probably would have
been fine.
Shannon Oelkers (30:57):
Hundred percent, yep.
No, there's stiffener ringsthat can help with that wind
damage, but you have tocalculate it and it's got to be
engineered and you have to knowthe climate and the location.
And they were older tanks, theyjust didn't calculate that
stuff in the 1950s, andhonestly, they may not have
known.
They probably showed up inGreenland and built a tank that
day.
Ed Yarmak (31:18):
That's probably what they did.
And the year before that we hadbeen there was when the the
dents came.
We were told that they thoughtthey were going to eclipse the
Mount Washington speed recordfor airspeed uh on land, but the
anemometer uh shack uh blewout.
Shannon Oelkers (31:40):
We work in ADAC a lot, and that happens almost
every time they have a bigstorm.
It like reaches the new recordand then the wind thing blows
off the building, and then theythink they don't know how high
it goes.
I do want to talk brieflyabout, you know, we're talking
about permafrost, and I feellike we should also talk about
pipelines.
I briefly mentioned it with thejacking, but permafrost affects
(32:00):
pipelines as well.
And if you've got tanks, you'vegot pipelines.
Have thermosiphons been used toaddress that for above and
below grade piping?
Ed Yarmak (32:08):
Well, the largest example for above-grade piping
is the Trans-Alaska pipeline.
They've got 120,000thermosiphons that they bought
from Grand X McDonnell Douglason that line.
They did a real good job of youknow doing their design and
redundancy factor.
And look, that pipeline'salmost 50 years old and stuff
(32:30):
there.
Shannon Oelkers (32:31):
And it's running warm crude through it,
right?
Yeah.
Ed Yarmak (32:36):
And some people they used to say that, oh, they
needed that stuff because of thewarm crude.
Well, the warm crude took careof itself because it was, you
know, 10 feet off the ground.
But in the ground, it was whenit was put in the ground, it was
put in in falstable material.
(32:56):
Or there's some areas where thewhere that pipeline was dug
down to foster materials beneatheasily uh you know 25 feet iC
silk.
Shannon Oelkers (33:10):
Oh so they leveraged geotechnical reports
to put it in where it made themost sense.
Yeah, it's the geotechs andstuff.
Ed Yarmak (33:18):
Yeah.
You know, in these small areas,the small tank areas and stuff,
you know, a lot of times if theinstead of just making a
thermosiphon system for a tank,they'll make the thermosiphon
system for the whole tank andimpoundment area.
And so all of your piping willsit on top of that in the
(33:41):
impoundment area.
And so that's gonna berelatively stable in there.
You still have to get out ofthere somewhere, so there's
gonna be things moving around,and you want to make sure that
whatever you're you're buildingis gonna be able to move or flex
or whatever in there.
You know, we don't want it tolook like the tank farm in
(34:04):
Selwick did in like 1982 withall of these little vertical
tanks tilted all over with woodblocks underneath of them trying
to get them to be stable androot hoses in various conditions
and stuff.
It was a pretty ugly, uh, ugly,ugly tank barn at that time.
Shannon Oelkers (34:27):
I would like to say that that image that you
just painted is something thatexisted in the 1980s and is no
longer, but I cannot say that.
I have definitely seen sometanks that are in similar
straits right now.
And I think the takeaway isthat anytime you have pipeline
points that need to be stable,like for example, where it
(34:48):
connects to the tank or it goesup and over a containment wall
of some kind, you need tostabilize that whole section
because if the pipe is movingand the wall is moving and the
tank is moving, it's not goingto end well for any of those
three parts.
And there's gonna be a lot ofstress and tension on your
system.
The rest of a pipeline ispretty mobile, and that's why
(35:09):
pipeline supports exist.
And pipelines are made ofductile steel because they're
very flexible.
And you can adjust the pipelineas it runs over ground, but
once it gets to where it'sconnecting to the tank or within
the tankyard, your flexibilitygoes down and it becomes more
important to stabilize things.
Thank you for giving us thatthorough overview of this very
(35:29):
Arctic-specific issue.
I was wondering if you had anyresources for our listeners that
they want to learn more aboutthis, especially if they're
responsible for tanks in apermafrost area.
Ed Yarmak (35:40):
Oh, resources.
Shannon Oelkers (35:42):
You mentioned a SNAP website earlier.
Ed Yarmak (35:46):
Yeah, that's the UAF SNAP uh website.
It's a scenario, it's somethingthat they do for climate
scenarios and stuff.
It's a great place to see wherethey think your climate is
going.
And it's good for Alaska,Yukon, and Northwest
Territories.
So unfortunately, it's youcan't get there's no information
(36:09):
for other places, and it's hardto get other Arctic information
from other places too.
Looking at if you wereinterested in permafrost and
what your papers on and lookingfor papers and stuff, a couple
of very good places to look atare at the United States
(36:29):
Permafrost Association'swebsite, and that's
USpermafrost.org.
They have resources,publications and stuff, some old
uh permafrost conferences andthings.
And you can also go to plainpermafrost.org, which is the
International PermafrostAssociation's site.
(36:52):
Oh all the old conferences, theuh proceedings are there and
stuff, and you can you can seehow people built stuff a long
time ago and now stuff.
It's pretty interesting.
Shannon Oelkers (37:06):
Yeah, I was really fascinated when you and I
worked together, and which iswhy you're here.
I wanted to learn more about itand dig deeper into it.
But yeah, I think there'splenty of case studies about
tanks out there on some of thosewebsites, so I'll see if I can
dig one up and attach it as areference.
Ed Yarmak (37:24):
Yeah, the absolute the Narilsk site in Russia, it
was one of the worst disastersthat came from from a tank.
Shannon Oelkers (37:33):
How big was that tank?
Ed Yarmak (37:34):
Several million gallons.
It was not anything like wehave out in the normal villages.
Maybe it would be the size ofone of the tanks in red dogs.
Oh, okay.
Those are big tanks up there.
Shannon Oelkers (37:50):
All right.
Well, Ed, thank you so much foryour time today.
If people want to reach out toyou, how best could they get a
hold of you?
Ed Yarmak (37:58):
Well, the best thing to do is just to go to our
company website,ArcticFoundations.com, and hit
the info button.
That's the easiest way.
And then it'll come in andsomebody will look at it and
they'll say, oh, Ed needs to seethis.
Or if they have needs thatsomebody else can handle here,
we'll be able to take care of.
Shannon Oelkers (38:19):
Awesome.
Ed, thank you so much for yourtime today.
I appreciate you sharing yourknowledge.
Ed Yarmak (38:24):
Thank you, Shannon.
Have a great day.
Shannon Oelkers (38:27):
Yep, you too.
Hi there.
This is Shannon Olker.
And as the owner of IntegrityEnvironmental, I wanted to take
a minute here at the end of thepodcast to make sure that you
knew the following.
This podcast is forinformational purposes only and
should not be considered legalor regulatory advice.
We are not responsible for anylosses, damages, or liabilities
(38:48):
that may arise from the use ofthis podcast.
This podcast is not intended toreplace professional regulatory
or legal advice.
And the views expressed in thispodcast may not be those of the
host, that would be me, orintegrity environmental.
Thank you very much forlistening.
And if you do need professionalregulatory advice, we'd be
happy to help you as part of ourconsulting services.
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