Fuel Quality featuring Walter Chartrand

Walter Chartrand, chemist and trainer with the Aviation Training Association, joins Shannon to break down one of the most critical topics in fuel handling: fuel quality. 

From what “Clean, Dry, On-Specification” really means to the Shore / Store / Deliver framework, Walter shares decades of experience in aviation fuels and storage. Listeners will learn how contaminants like water, solids, and microbes get into fuel, what tests should be run at each custody transfer, and which standards every operator should know. 

Walter also discusses documentation, training, and real-world lessons to help fuel managers protect product quality, avoid costly mistakes, and keep operations safe. 

This episode is packed with insights for bulk fuel managers, operators, and anyone responsible for keeping fuel quality in check. 

🎧 Tune in to hear practical insights you can apply in your facility today. 

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:09):
Welcome to Tate Talk with Integrity Environmental.
Join us as we sit down withfounder, principal consultant,
and bulk fuel storage expertKennet Ulfert to explore
regulations, safety, andessential tips for navigating
the bulk fuel storage industry.
Join us as we explore the uniquejoys of work and life in Alaska
with industry experts, includingour team, vendors we work with,

(00:31):
and the companies we support.

SPEAKER_03 (00:36):
Welcome to Tink Talk.
This is Shannon Olkers, and I amexcited today to have Walter
Chartrand, a dashing debonairetrainer and chemist from the
Aviation Training Association.
And he's here to explore one ofthe most important and exciting
topics in fuel handling.
Spoiler alert, there arecontrolled explosions.
We're going to talk about fuelquality today.

(00:57):
Walter, welcome to the show.
Could you please introduceyourself and give our listeners
a brief overview of yourbackground?
How did you find yourself infuels?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06):
Shannon, it's it's a pleasure to be here.
I was born a very small child,and at a young age, my father's
very dear friend took me flying,and I was immediately hooked in
love with aviation.
I got my pilot's license and mydriver's license on the same day
when I was 16 and went on tocollege to get an associate's

(01:26):
degree in aeronautical science,and I got all my flying ratings
and was flying professionallyand loved it.
Actually, wanted to work for theairlines, interviewed with some
airlines that are now only foundin museums.
And it was kind of at the end ofthe Vietnam War, and they had
all kinds of pilots, so theywanted a four-year degree, and

(01:48):
my associate's degree didn't cutit.
So I went back to college, andduring that time I was managing
the corporate jet service centerat Houston's Intercontinental
Airport while I went to nightschool to get a mechanical
engineering degree.
And when I finished that degree,Exxon actually hired me as a
marketing technical servicesspecialist and sent me around

(02:10):
the world teaching me aboutfuel.

SPEAKER_03 (02:13):
All right.
So your heart belongs to the airand your wallet belonged to
Exxon.
I don't think too many pilots goback to night school to get
mechanical engineering degrees,Walter.

SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
Well, I was that odd man out, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 (02:30):
Well, I'm so glad you're here today.
And fuel quality is a big, broadterm for a whole series of
tests, operational procedures,and systems that all these
different organizations havedeveloped to ensure fuel quality
stays high.
All of that that I just said cankind of be summed up in this one
phrase called clean, dry, and onspec.

(02:51):
And I was hoping, Walter, youcould just, you know, we have
listeners of all capabilities.
So for some people, that termwill be very familiar.
For some, it'll be new.
Could you just go over thebasics and tell us what clean,
dry, and on spec means?

SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
Sure.
And that's a veryall-encompassing phrase, and it
applies to all fuels.
But when we talk in aviationabout clean, the standard for
filtration on jet fuel is onemicron.
And everybody asks me, well,what's a micron?
Well, it's a millionth of ameter.
Okay, what's that?
So a human hair is approximately70 micron, and we can typically

(03:29):
see to about 40 micron.
A red blood cell is eightmicron.
So think about this.
We filter jet fuel down to onemicron.
So it really helps explain howthese jet engines have no
tolerance for any solidparticulate matter.
So that's really clean.

(03:49):
When we're talking about dry,it's not like martini dry.
Darn it.
More like Arizona Desert Dry.
The term really refers toentrained water.
Because we have a hydrocarbon, aliquid carbon, many times water
can develop in these products.
And what our job is to ensurethat the fuel coming into

(04:13):
storage and the fuel going intothe airplane has less than 15
parts per million of water.
So that's really criticalbecause as we take fuel to
altitude, water comes out ofthis entrained state to a free
water state.
And once we're in flying andfreezing temperatures, now we
have solids in the fuel.
Solids really isn't good becausethe engines get quiet.

SPEAKER_03 (04:37):
Yeah, quiet engines are never good on a boat or in
the air.

SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
Yeah, pilots don't like quiet.
And the last one, the on spec,on specification, really means
that the product has not beenaltered in any way from when it
was manufactured by beingcross-contaminated with
something different, a differentfuel.
So the way we do that is reallyAPI gravity to make sure that

(05:05):
the gravity of the product attime of receipt is within
tolerance from when it wasmanufactured.
That's what we mean by onspecification.

SPEAKER_03 (05:15):
Could you provide a brief overview of API gravity
for some of our listeners thatmaybe are unfamiliar with it?

SPEAKER_00 (05:22):
So American Petroleum Institute sets the
standard for this.
And what we're doing is we'remeasuring the weight of the
product.
So all our different fuelproducts, all different fluids,
have different gravities.
So when we're measuring thegravity, for example, in jet
fuel, it's 39 degrees API to 51degrees API.

(05:45):
So in that range, when we makejet fuel, it has to be in that
range.
But when we make a specificbatch, when that's done, we
actually take a sample and get agravity and hear that gravity
with that fuel so we can followit through the delivery chain to
make sure it hasn't changed.

SPEAKER_03 (06:04):
And API gravity is tested with a device that a lot
of people have in their backrooms.
And could you talk a little bitabout that device in case
they're I want them to tie whatwe're talking about to something
that they they've probably done,but maybe don't even know that
that's what it's called.

SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
So there's a glass thermo hydrometer that in the
bottom has a thermometer in.
I wish I had one I could justshow you.
And the top is the scale in APIdegrees for measuring the fuel.
So, for example, up the NorthPole refining, they make jet
fuel and they load it into railcars and rail it down to

(06:46):
Anchorage.
Well, when it came off thedistillation tower in
production, it was warm.
But during the rail car ride toAnchorage, it cooled.
So the thermometer part of thehydrometer is really to change
that so we're all talking aboutthe same thing.
We convert the observed gravityto 60 degrees API so that the

(07:09):
folks in Anchorage are lookingat the same gravity as the folks
in North Pole refining.

SPEAKER_03 (07:14):
And there's a conversion chart that comes with
that thermometer.
And so you read the temperature,there's a little chart, and you
say if it's 59 degrees, you goover, and then it gives you a
number, and that should matchwhat the sample taken at
creation or quote.

SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
And Shannon, with today's technology, we take
those charts and even put themin a conversion wheel that we
call a WYSI wheel, economically.
And that has the correction.
So we put the observed gravityon there, and it's the old slide
rule I used in college yearsago, long before calculators.

(07:50):
And we take the observedtemperature and then we convert
that to 60 degrees.
Matter of fact, today they evenhave automatic digital handheld
units that do this.
They're very expensive, butmodern technology.

SPEAKER_03 (08:05):
I feel like I have seen an app as well.
I think there's an API gravityapp where you can just put it in
and an autocalx AI map and do itas well.
It's just a conversion chart.
Just a conversion chart.
Thank you for taking that detouron API gravity because we'll go
through all of these in thispodcast.

(08:26):
But I do think for a lot of ourguys, they are checking that
temperature and they'reconverting it.
But I want to tie it back to thefact that we want to make sure
that the fuel hasn'tfundamentally changed its
composition.
So it's not jet fuel with alittle bit of gasoline in it,
for example, or jet fuel with alittle bit of diesel, or enough
water that it's changedsomething.

SPEAKER_00 (08:47):
Yeah, water really, it's interesting.
Water won't change the specificgravity of the fuel, but it
makes the fuel wet.
When you have a differentproduct of enough volume, then
it would change the specificgravity, but it'd be a pretty
high volume.

SPEAKER_03 (09:05):
You'd be noticing.
You could visually see it.
Okay.
So we've got clean dry on spec.
Where is that most critical tomeasure?
Because we're not measuring thefuel every single hour of every
single day.
So are there some junctures inthe fuels journey, perhaps,
where that clean dry on spec ismore important?

SPEAKER_00 (09:26):
In the industry, we call it point of custody
transfer.
In training, I tell people youdon't want to put counterfeit
money in your bank account.
So when the product changeshands from one person to another
at the barge, at the terminal,at the airport, when the product
is being received, that's whenwe need to make sure that it's

(09:47):
not counterfeit money.
So that's where we're going todo that API gravity to ensure,
like you say, that it's notcross-contaminated or commingled
with some other product.
Because when we do the gravity,that will determine if that has
happened.
The other test that we dosometimes is Flashpoint, but
that really measures very highvapor products in lower vapor

(10:11):
products.

SPEAKER_03 (10:12):
So when we're looking at the counterfeit
money, how do we know the fuelis what it's supposed to be?
Like what information do we needto understand that what we
ordered is what we got?

SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
Great question.
So when the fuel is produced, sowe're at the refinery, we pulled
some product off thedistillation tower, we put it in
a big tank.
What's going to happen isthey're going to get a top, a
middle, and a bottom sample, acomposite sample of the fuel in
that tank.
They're going to take it to thelab and they're going to run it
against the specification forthat fuel.

(10:45):
For example, jet fuel is ASTMD1655.
So they'll run that battery oftests to verify that the product
meets that specificationstandard.
And once that happens, once theyknow they have passed all the
criteria tests for that product,for that specification, they

(11:06):
create a certificate ofanalysis.
And that C of A certificate ofanalysis really is the birth
certificate for that fuel.
And it has to follow the fuelwherever it goes.
So when someone is receivingfuel, there should be a few
documents.
One is the bill of lading.
That really is the transferdocument.
That's the transportation of thefuel.

(11:29):
But the other is thiscertificate of analysis that
says when this fuel was made,here's the criteria, here's the
test results showing that itpassed all these tests.
And some of them, like APIgravity, are ways we can use in
the field to determine if thefuel is still on spec and not
cross-contaminated withsomething else.

SPEAKER_03 (11:50):
Okay, so congratulations.
You have a 500,000-pound babyboy load of Jedi.
You did mention contaminants orcross-contaminants at the end,
and I think this is germane tothe rest of this conversation.
Could we talk about what are themost common contaminants that do
show up in fuel when you'rechecking to see if you got what

(12:11):
you ordered?

SPEAKER_00 (12:12):
Interestingly enough, it's all the stuff that
we didn't put in when we madethe product.
So there's a list of things thatcan occur.
The most common is watercontamination.
And the reason this is so highon the scale is because as the
temperature of the fuel changes,condensation will occur.

(12:32):
So water contamination is reallybad because it causes a lot of
other problems, like microbialgrowth, where there's bugs
growing at the fuel waterinterface.
And that's really the reasonbehind the sumping and the
removing of water bottoms.
The second is probably the solidcontamination.
These are particulates ofdebris, rust, dust, chips of

(12:56):
paint, all the stuff we find infuel systems and in low point
drains.
And degradation of the productbecause of long-term or stagnant
storage is a concern.
I know in the part of the worldthat you habitat in, sometimes
things are very seasonal andfuel is delivered to a location,

(13:16):
but then winter happens andnobody goes to that location for
an extended period of time.
That's where we really need tomake sure that we don't have any
degradation of the productbecause of long-term storage.
And when I say stagnant storage,what I mean is nothing going in,
nothing coming out, nobodyrecirculating the fuel.
That's stagnant storage.

(13:36):
And last I'd say is thatcross-contamination that we
addressed with the hydrometerand dissimilar product, but then
again, that's done at time ofreceipt.
And once the fuel is in yourtank, it really doesn't matter
because you know you've checkedit and it's good that good money
is in your bank account.

SPEAKER_03 (13:55):
Well, sometimes people can transfer fuel from
tanks to tanks, like forconsolidating storage.
And you can, I have seen somecross-contamination issues from
moving fresh diesel into olddiesel, for example, or mixing
batches, if you will, for likeyou've got half a tank of Jedi
and you're adding another half atank when the barge shows up.

(14:17):
So there are there are somecross-contamination issues, even
if you're all in the same tank.
But Walter, let's talk aboutthese contaminants because I
want to explore how they getinto the fuel in the first
place.
Because for a whole lot of ourlisteners, this ties back to
their operations and maintenanceand the reasons why we do a lot
of the things we do to keepthese contaminants out.
Let's start with condensationand water.

(14:38):
Like, how do you keep water outof your tank, out of your fuel?

SPEAKER_00 (14:42):
So water can be introduced into fuel several
different ways.
The most common is just due tocondensation and temperature
change.
So a tank half full is going tocondensate more than a tank
that's full.
And it's all about the airspacewhere the moisture is.
So one of the reasons we havemore happening of microbial

(15:06):
growth in the spring and thefall is because we get wider
temperature changes.
So when there's a 20-degreetemperature change from day to
night, we know that the tank'sgoing to be condensating
moisture.
So many times when I do auditsor inspections and they bring me
the sheet, and I know it'sspringtime, and I know it was
cold last night and it's goingto be warm today, and they say

(15:27):
there was no water sumped out ofthe tank.
I sometimes question that.
And I that causes me to go outthere and do it myself because I
don't believe.

SPEAKER_03 (16:06):
And I'm like, are you sure about that?
Now I will say many of ourlocations are as dry as deserts.
Some of our locations,especially in western Alaska,
can be dry, not for the wholeyear, though.
But I did want to talk aboutthat water piece because I do
think there's like a myth or amisconception that some of the
storage in Alaska, it's just sodry that there's no water.

(16:29):
And I'm like, I don't know if Ibelieve that.

SPEAKER_00 (16:31):
What about it's actually a four-syllable word?
You may have heard it before.
It's behul shahit.

SPEAKER_03 (16:40):
We're gonna have to rate this PG, Walter.

SPEAKER_00 (16:44):
There goes there goes our rating, huh?
Well, you've got to rememberthat the temperature is going to
change, and as it does,condensation will occur.
I mean, the sun comes up in theeast, and hydrocarbons
condensate moisture.
Those are just facts of theworld.
So whether you're in Phoenix,Arizona or Anchorage, Alaska,

(17:08):
hydrocarbons condensatemoisture.
And the amount is going to varyby the amount of moisture in the
air.
So there are fluctuations, but Iguarantee you we don't have the
ATA-103 standards and thesestandards for maintaining fuel
requiring daily sumps withoutreason.

SPEAKER_03 (17:30):
And Walter, you're talking about daily sumps, which
is part of the aviationstandards for aircraft fueling.
There are some requirements forsome of our other products, like
diesel and gasoline for likevehicle fueling, marine or
land-based.
Those typically have monthlysumps because if a vehicle or a

(17:50):
vessel runs into fuelcontamination issues, they don't
fall out of the sky.
Although I would argue for manyof our vessels, having bad fuel
is almost as dangerous as beingin an aircraft.
So daily sumps is sort of theaviation gold standard, at least
monthly is the next level ofsomething.
And I would even say if you arein a moist area, maybe you could

(18:13):
opt to do it more frequently.
But we've talked about water,but there's some other
particulates that can get intothings.
And then there's some pieces ofthe system that we need to talk
about because sometimes fuelquality can be impacted by parts
of the system failing.
So do you want to talk aboutlike filters, Walter?
Because filters are tricky,right?

SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
Sure.
And back to your point ondiesels and gasoline, middle
distillates like diesels orheating oil or jet fuel, they
will condensate moisture.
Gasolines, on the other hand,because of their effervescence,
because they're benzene-based,don't really condensate moisture
as readily.
Most commonly, when we havecontamination in a gasoline,

(18:57):
it's by introduction of waterinto the tank.
Leaking manway, increased watertable, rusting tank, something
like that.
Sideways rain through the vent.
Sideways rain through the vent,only in Alaska, not in the lower
48.

SPEAKER_03 (19:14):
So in Alaska, we definitely see micro debris,
like really fine silts.
You can't see them, but they'reblowing into the vents through
the air.
And sometimes we also get ashparticles from like wildfires
and things.
Those can enter a tank and bepart of the contamination of the
fuel.
But all of those like physicalparticulates, they show up in

(19:37):
the filters.
And I just wanted to take aminute to talk about
differential pressure and like,you know, if a filter fails, it
can introduce stuff downstreamof that filter too.
So would you mind talking aboutdifferential pressure and filter
rupture real quick for how fuelcould get contaminated?

SPEAKER_00 (19:52):
Sure.
So I'd mentioned earlier that wefilter fuels typically down to
one micron.
So as the filter or as fuel goesthrough the filter, it removes
solid contaminants.
As it mitigates through thepleated paper, through the
fiberglass onto a cotton sock,it causes the coalescence of

(20:13):
water.
So we're filtering forparticulates by going from
inside to outside on a pleatedpaper filter, and then
coalescing water usingfiberglass and a cotton sock on
the outside of a filtercoalescer element.
That causes the water toincrease in bead size to a point
that when it's heavier than thefuel, it sinks to the low point

(20:36):
and we sump the filter underpressure.
Downstream of that is aseparator, and the separator is
kind of an insurance policy tomake sure we have no fine mist
of water going downstream.
These are all measured with adifferential pressure gauge.
And the gauge is key on tellingus how much contaminant is in

(20:57):
the pleated paper restrictingthe flow.
Because as we have more solidcontaminants being pulled out of
the fuel by the pleated paperfilter, it's going to restrict
the flow going through thatfilter.
So we'll see an increase indifferential pressure.
And the standard is that youcan't have more than a maximum

(21:17):
of 15 psi difference between theinlet and the outlet of the
elements.
Because once you get to thatpoint, then every time you turn
on the pump, you're challengingthat filter with a fluid hammer.
And if there's too muchrestriction, you'll have the
filter actually blow out and theDP go back down to zero.
The key to this is rated flow ofthe vessel.

(21:42):
So we correct the differentialpressure to the rated flow of
the vessel.
And in many times, I see theapplications are way over
engineered.
They've got a big filter becausethey think it's going to do a
great job.
It's a 400 gallon a minutefilter and they're running at
100 gallons a minute.
So the difference is that it'sgoing to be a fourth of what

(22:05):
you're observing on the scale ifyou're only running at 100
gallons a minute when the filteris designed to run at 400
gallons a minute.
So now three psi on that gaugetimes the four is 12.
Now we're getting pretty closeto 15, but we're looking at the
gauge and only seeing three andthinking we're good.

SPEAKER_03 (22:25):
I hope all of our listeners just wrote that down
on their notes because wedefinitely do not see that
retained in the field.
I think a lot of people havethat 15 number in their mind,
and they're not looking at theflow through rate.
They're just looking at thenumber that's displayed on the
scale.
And Walter, could you talk aboutwhen you should read the

(22:47):
differential pressure?
Because I have also seen this inthe field.
When is the best time to readyour differential number?

SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
First, I've got to tell you a fun story.

SPEAKER_03 (22:55):
Yay!

SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
I'm working in a Middle Eastern country.
And I'm looking at theinspection check sheets, and it
says differential pressure, andthe number is zero.
And I'm looking across weeks ofthis, and differential pressure
is recorded at zero.
So I ask Ahmed, I said, Achmed,show me where you get this

(23:19):
number.
And he walks me out to thisabsolutely beautiful stainless
steel fueling cabinet, opens thedoor without the pump running
and fuel going through thesystem, points at the gauge, and
what does the gauge say?
Zero.
Zero.
Zero.
He writes down zero.
Because it's off.
So I said, Well, Ahmed, tell mewho taught you to do this.

(23:40):
He said, Well, they told me tocome out and write down what the
gauge said.
And he listened to the gauge,and the gauge didn't say
anything.
So he looked at the gauge andwrote down zero.

SPEAKER_04 (23:54):
We always try to zeros.

SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
We arranged the valves for recirculation through
the system from the tank throughthe filter or through the pump
through the filter back to thetank and start the unit.
And the gauge moved and hejumped.
Because he'd never seen thegauge move.
So to answer your question, thething that we teach people is if
we do our QCs, our qualitycontrol checks, the same time or

(24:19):
same way every time, we're goingto get a benchmark of what we're
supposed to see.
So typically in aviation, it'severy morning at the start of
the day.
And going back to ourconversation about something in
water, that's the time is thecoolest it's going to get before
it starts to warm, so thatmoisture is readily available to
be extracted from the tank.

(24:41):
So if we set up the system orthe truck, whatever it is, to
recirculate from tank throughthe pump, through the filter,
back to tank with all the valvesopen, that's probably as fast as
that system or truck is going torun.
So that's the optimum time tolook at the differential
pressure at the maximum flow.
But it's also the key time tofigure out what the flow rate

(25:06):
is.
Does it match the filter?
Is it half what the filter'srated for?
Where are we?
And we even help our customerswith a quick little Excel
spreadsheet.
You just type in the numbers,rated flow of the vessel,
observe DP, and it corrects itfor you.
So be glad to share that withyou and your customers as well.

SPEAKER_03 (25:24):
We will take that resource.
Also, if you're listening tothis and you're thinking in your
head, I don't know what myfilter can do, and it should be
printed on the filter,correctly.

SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Correct?
Yeah, there should be a dataplate, but sometimes we paid
over those.
Hopefully we don't.
But we can do some research ifwe have the serial number of the
vessel and the elements that arein it and convert and tell you
exactly what it's rated for.

SPEAKER_03 (25:48):
If you generally are able to buy replacement filters
for your filter, you should beable to figure out what its
rating is at some point.

SPEAKER_00 (25:54):
I'd be glad to help you do that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (25:57):
Well, I know for a lot of our facilities, a lot of
the historical information ismissing.
Or we have filter vessels thatwere installed in the 1950s
post-World War II.
And so the information on thoseis a little dicey, you know?
There's just it's been lost overtime.
So I know quite a few of ourlisteners are like, I don't
know.
Or they or they have 25facilities and they have

(26:20):
different filter vessels inmultiple locations at all of
those facilities.

SPEAKER_04 (26:24):
So there's no consistency.

SPEAKER_00 (26:26):
And and I run into the situation that there's not a
meter that somebody candetermine what the actual flow
is.
So sometimes just transferringfrom one tank to the other tank
and sticking those tanks andgetting a volume before and
after, and you using MickeyMouse's on the watch and the
meter, you can figure out whatthe flow rate is.

SPEAKER_03 (26:47):
There are workarounds, but what I want our
listeners to take away though isit's important to know what your
transfer rate is and know therating of your filter vessel
because you can have a readingof three which looks compliant,
but you could be forcingcontamination through that
filter if you've got a low flowand a high capacity filter, and
you can have contaminationshowing up on the other side.

(27:07):
And we want to make sure we getthose numbers right, especially
for critical things like fuelingup marine vessels and aircraft.
I mean, those are veryimportant.
So that was a very long talkabout contaminants.
Let's bring it back to the fuelsjourney because fuel starts at a
refinery and then it istransported, it's stored, it's

(27:29):
delivered, and it ultimatelyends up at its final
destination, whether that'sfueling an aircraft or
generating electricity or youknow, into the boat for
transportation or whatever theboat is doing.
I wanted to talk about when dowe check fuel quality in that
process and then what tests arewe supposed to be performing

(27:49):
along the way?
Because there are some specificrecommended tests from all, and
we'll talk about these ASTMs atthe end if you want to reference
them more.
But I just want to talk aboutthat process and like where we
do fuel quality checks and likewhat sort of tasks need to be
performed there.

SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
Great question.
Aviation product is probably alittle bit different than most,
but again, I take you back tothe point of custody transfer.
Many times I tell folks that youreally can't change the
specification of the fuel sothat when we receive fuel in the
field from the refinery, whatwe're doing is number one,

(28:28):
ensuring the quality, but numbertwo, we're in charge, once we
accept that fuel, of maintainingthe quality.
So at Points of CustodyTransfer, we we do several
different tests.
First is just a plain old whitebucket evaluation.
And this is really not even atest, it's an evaluation.
We put the product in a whitebucket to see if there's color,

(28:51):
because color tells us thatwe've got some other contaminant
in there.
It also will tell us if we'vegot water particulates.
So the color of fuel is reallycritical at that point.
The second one is what we callthe clear and bright, and there
this is an ASTM test where weactually put the product in a
clear glass jar and lookhorizontally through the

(29:12):
product.
So the white bucket, we'relooking vertically into the
product.
In the clear and bright, we'relooking through the product, and
we can create a vortices withthe sample jar and collect any
solid particular and waterparticulates to the bottom, and
it and it's a visual clear andbright.
And there's a scale rating forboth the white bucket and the

(29:32):
clear and bright.

SPEAKER_03 (29:33):
For our listeners, because they can't see us.
When you held up your clear andbright test and said vortice,
you swirled it.
You're making a little tornadoinside to sort of funnel the
particulates down to the bottomto make it easier to see.
Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 (29:47):
Yeah, it centers if we create a little swirl in
there, a little tornado in thebottom, vortices.
It'll collect any water andparticulates to the center of
the sample jar, condensing themso that we can actually see
them.
Better.
And the last is the API gravity.
So the white bucket and theclear and bright really are

(30:07):
about a visual evaluation.
And should that be bad, we mightnot have to go any further.
But if those are all good, thenwe're going to do a gravity.
And as we talked about, gravityis confirming that we're not
cross-contaminated withdissimilar product.

SPEAKER_03 (30:23):
So if we ordered jet fuel, we're getting jet fuel and
that it is close to or exactlyon what its birth certificate
says.
So I just translating for someof our Alaskan listeners, when
you're receiving fuel from abarge, they should be providing
you a sample before deliverywhere you can perform the clear
and bright and the white buckettest prior to accepting the fuel

(30:46):
and the API gravity test aswell.
Correct, Walter?
They provide a sample from thebarge, you do your clear and
bright, you do your whitebucket, you do your API gravity.
If that all checks out andyou're getting 100% real money,
then you authorize the bargetransfer.
And that's that's one of thepoints of custody.
There are other points ofcustody where we're going to do
those exact same tests, though.

(31:06):
Is that correct?
Or is that the big one?

SPEAKER_00 (31:08):
Well, if the fuel is to be delivered to somewhere
else, a pre-airfield terminal oruh airfield storage, or so
again, anytime we're making anactual custody transfer, once
it's our fuel in our tank, thosetests get changed to maintenance
operations.
So once the fuel is received,your job now is just to maintain

(31:31):
the quality, not ensure that youdon't have any
cross-contamination.

SPEAKER_03 (31:35):
But if you are a company that's in charge of
delivering a product to aclient, you would expect them to
also be performing their ownquality checks to make sure that
what they've received from youis what they ordered.

SPEAKER_00 (31:47):
Absolutely.
Yeah, when I work with pilotseven before they fueled their
aircraft, I teach them to askfor a sample.
I mean, it's you getting in thatairplane.
Certainly you want to make surethe fuel's good.
There's something aboutoff-airport landings that
doesn't sound good.

SPEAKER_03 (32:04):
Quiet engines and off-airport landings.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (32:08):
Do you know why there's a propeller on the front
of the airplane?
Why?
Keeps the pilot cool becausewhen it quits turning, he starts
sweating like hell.

SPEAKER_03 (32:17):
Oh my gosh.
We're gonna have the best dadjoke list at the end of this
episode.
So, Walter, we just talked aboutreceiving fuel and making sure
that we got what we paid for atthat stage.
And then you mentioned storageand we talked about delivery.

(32:39):
Those are the life cycle of thefuel.
We talked about the qualitychecks when we receive it.
Are there other quality checksthat we should do when we store
it and then upon delivery?

SPEAKER_00 (32:49):
Sure.
I mean, upon receipt, when andwhere the fuel is delivered to a
pre-air filled storage, this iswhere we want to do the clean,
dry, on spec test to make surethat we have the product we we
ordered prior to receipt.
And then, of course, storage,where we're storing the fuel.
Once the fuel is received, thequality must be maintained to

(33:11):
ensure that when we get to thenext step, delivery, upon
delivery, and prior to the fuelbeing delivered to a retail
outlet or especially delivery toan aircraft, the fuel quality
must be ensured and documented.
Because should something badhappen, that's where people are
going to ask hard questions.
And if we have documentationthat we've done these quality

(33:33):
control checks, it bodes intoour favor in defending ourselves
against lawsuits.

SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
Let's not talk about lawsuits on this podcast too
deep, Walter.

SPEAKER_03 (33:45):
But I do want to talk about it, seems like
there's three categories.
And I I've heard you use thismemory device before.
It's like shore, store, anddeliver.
It sounds like something you'dsay at a bar right before you
got some alcohol delivered toyour table.
But I do think it's a good wayto sort of keep it straight in
your head that there's testsrequired at the shore, right?

(34:06):
When you get it, there's testsrequired as you are storing it,
and then there are testsrequired upon delivery.
We've gone pretty in-depth onshore already.
Let's talk about storing it.
And for this conversation, let'skeep it to aviation fuels
because that's the goldstandard.
They have a little highercriteria.
But if you're listening to this,know that some of the other

(34:29):
products maybe have uh lowerfrequency, but it's still the
same stuff.
So maybe not daily, monthly.
So let's talk about something.
Can we talk about somethingwhile we store?
Because the aviation has somerequirements.

SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
Absolutely.
So a unique aside, when we'resumping or removing water and
contaminants from a low point ofa tank, the pump doesn't have to
be running.
However, when we sump a filtervessel, the pump has to be
running and there has to bepressure in order to evacuate
the low points of the vessel.

(35:01):
So in sumping tanks, we're we'relooking for the same kind of
criteria, the white bucketevaluation.
We're really confirming thecorrect color in jet fuel, it's
clear to straw by lookingvertically into the sample of a
gallon or more.
The second would be like theclear and bright we'd mentioned,
using that clear jar, wevisually look horizontally

(35:22):
through the product and weensure no contaminants, solid
contaminants, or water.
Once the product has beenreceived, we really don't have
to do a gravity unless thecustomer at point of transfer is
asking for a gravity of thefuel.
Sometimes with airplanes, theythey want to do that for weight
and balance purposes.

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(36:14):
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Walter, I'd also like to bringup that for some of our
listeners, they have reallylarge tanks, millions of
gallons.
And when you're doing a waterdraw on a tank, there is a small

(36:38):
pipeline that goes to the sumpor the low point of the tank.
And when you're performing awater draw on a tank, and if
you're doing it correctly, thatpipeline is full of fuel.
So you have to know how muchfuel is in that little pipeline
that goes, you know, it's likean inch or less.
It goes to that sump.
You actually have to pull thefull volume of that pipe out

(36:59):
before you get to the water.
So for a lot of people, whenthey do a water draw, they open
the nozzle from the water drawand fuel comes out and they say
there's no water.
But you have to pull thethree-gallon, five-gallon, I've
I've seen as much as 15 gallonsfor some really large tanks that
have larger diameter water drawpiping.
You have to pull all that fuelout before you will ever get to

(37:21):
the water.
And so I do want people torecognize that they need to know
their tank and they need tounderstand what water draw
displacement volume they have topull first.
And once you do know it, you canactually stencil it on the side
of the tank.
So everybody who comes after youknows that you have to pull five
gallons out before you get tothe sump or 3.5 or whatever.

(37:42):
I feel like that's a reallycommon misconception for tank
sumping because it's super, itfeels right that you open the
nozzle, only fuel is coming out.
And it might come out for agallon, two gallons, three
gallons, and you're like,there's no water, but you're
still going through that pipethat's going to the sump.
So I did want to take a momentto talk about that in my
never-ending crusade againstwater.

SPEAKER_00 (38:04):
It's interesting that you're right on the money.
I mean, you've got to displacethe volume of the sampling
piping in order to see arepresentative sample of the
bottom of the tank.
And I have the same problem,Shannon, in above-ground
horizontal tanks, because thepump is at man level outside the

(38:25):
tank, but the pipe goes all theway up the tank and all the way
over and all the way down intothe tank.
And the same thing.
They'll thief off a half agallon or gallon and think they
got a representative sample ofthe bottom of the tank, and all
they did was get a core sampleof what's in the pipe.

SPEAKER_03 (38:42):
They turn it off right when it gets good.
They're like, yep, we're done.

SPEAKER_00 (38:44):
I'm like, no, it's but yeah, it's it's really
great.
And I and I know when I go onaudits and inspections, when I
see that placard that says mustsump five gallons prior to
sampling.
In other words, in many casesthey call it a fash flush.
They run five gallons throughthe system without even looking,

(39:06):
just to flush the line.
Then they do the sample to seewhat's in the bottom of the
tank.

SPEAKER_03 (39:12):
I feel like that's a part of the training that just
gets missed or forgotten reallyquickly.
And, you know, we're a differentworkforce now.
We've got really young peoplethat don't have a 30-year bench
in the fuels industry tounderstand the construction of
the tank and why you would needto do that.
So if you're listening to thisand you're responsible for
something, one, figure out yoursump volumes.

(39:34):
And two, create some kind ofmemory guide and training aid so
that if you, you know, theturnover's high, like once
you're gone, maybe someonebehind you will have that sump
at least five gallons reminderso that they, you know, that's
painted on the tank to help themretain that knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 (39:50):
I think it's so important, and and my company
does a lot of training that weteach people not only how to do
the task, but why it'scritically important to do it
that way.
And so as you mentioned, it'skind of helping fill in the
blanks to understand why do Ihave to do that.
And many times when peopleunderstand the why, the how

(40:10):
becomes easy.

SPEAKER_03 (40:11):
Yeah, and they can problem solve when something's
not going right.
I mean, I've had people havetheir water sumps freeze and
break the pipe and they can'tunderstand why they can never
get water out, and it's becausethe pipe is split and they're
just sucking the tank dry.
Also, as a side note, if you aresomebody responsible for getting
API 653 inspections of yourtank, you can ask the inspector

(40:35):
to calculate your sump volumebased on the length and diameter
of the pipe while they're insidethe tank doing their inspection.
So, pro tip if you don't knowwhat your sump volume is on a
larger vertical tank, you canabsolutely ask your uh API 653
inspector to help you with that.
So the last stage in the shorestore deliver is deliver,

(40:57):
Walter.
And we talked about at delivery,we want to do daily tank and
filter sumps on both the storagetank, also the delivery vehicle,
correct?
Yes.
Is there anything else atdelivery that we should be
knowledgeable about or thinkabout before we transition the
fuel to the next step atdelivery?

SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
We talked a little bit about differential pressure.
This is one of those key pointswhere differential pressure has
to be within limits because ifyou were to burst the filter
element at that point, all thedirt had been collecting and all
the filter media would go intothe aircraft.
So really critical ondifferential pressure at point
of delivery.
And many times when when there'sa problem, a nozzle screen

(41:40):
inspection will really help usdetermine what the symptoms are.
But also we want to make surethat the fuel is dry at point of
delivery.
And there's several tests thatwe can use that can confirm to
us that we can document thatthere's less than 15 parts per
million of water.

SPEAKER_03 (41:59):
So when you say nozzle screen, Walter, I'm gonna
go back to that.
Is that like I'm just imaginingsomebody like holding the fuel
nozzle and looking in it likethe classic cartoon setup for
the hose to come undone andspray them in the eye?
How do you do a nozzle screeninspection?
Because I've seen Dave do it andit's not what I thought it was
gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 (42:19):
Well, on any aviation overwing nozzle, as you
unscrew the tip from the nozzleitself where the grip and the
trigger are, there should be aconical screen in there.
In single point nozzles, whereit's uh closed circuit fueling
for an aircraft, you actuallyhave to uh remove the hose from

(42:40):
the nozzle to inspect thescreen.

SPEAKER_03 (42:42):
Most of the ones that I've seen, it's overwing
fueling.
They're unscrewing the end ofthe nozzle, they're popping off.
It looks almost like a drinkingwater screen on your sink,
right?
At home.
It pops off.
And then you want to look at theback side of it, right?
You don't want to unscrew it,see the outside, and say
everything's good.
You actually have to pull it outand look on the inside of the
cone, correct?

SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
Yeah.
Typically I'll ask for a whitepiece of paper sitting on
something flat, take thatconical shape screen and tap it
out to see if there's anythingthat comes out of the nozzle.
And those are all symptoms.
If we've got black rubberchunks, that tells us the hose
is coming apart.
If we've got white fibrousmaterial, it tells us a filter
is coming apart.

(43:24):
So it's sad to find it outthere.
Certainly with these othertests, we should realize those
issues sooner.
But it's the last point beforethe fuel gets in the airplane.
It's a hundred mesh or a hundredmicron.
So we filtered down to onemicron, and now if we find
chunks in a hundred micronnozzle screen, that means

(43:45):
there's probably been a lot ofstuff got into the airplanes.

SPEAKER_03 (43:48):
Gotcha.
And what's the frequency for anozzle screen inspection?

SPEAKER_00 (43:53):
You know, interesting question.
ATA 103 recently changed it froma monthly inspection to a weekly
inspection.

SPEAKER_03 (44:01):
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
So weekly.
So part if if you deliver fuelto aircraft using a fuel truck
and you're doing overwingfueling, or I guess I don't know
about the other one, the directconnect, but you're supposed to
be doing a weekly inspection ofthat screen fitting.

SPEAKER_00 (44:18):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 (44:19):
Okay.
And then can we go back to thefilter membrane test?
Because I just called it theMillipore test, I think.
And I didn't know it was calledbecause that's what everyone
calls it.
And this is where there's like alittle white screen, and you put
it in a baggie and you compareit to this chart.
So could you talk about thefilter membrane test and sort of

(44:40):
just describe what it is?

SPEAKER_00 (44:42):
Interesting.
Millipore is the company thatactually makes the filter media
used in this test.
It's the ASTMD 2276 filtermembrane test.
And you're right.
We have a little capsule with abackup pad and a very fine
membrane that's 0.8 micron.

(45:03):
So even finer than the filterswe're using to filter the fuel.
And we pass fuel through thismembrane in a known amount, and
then we take it out and comparethat to a color chart.
And the color chart is ABG,amber, brown, gray.
And there's differentintensities of these colors in

(45:26):
these little comparison books,and we identify what
contaminant, if any, thereexists.
So amber would typically tell uswe've got a rust contamination.
Brown would typically tell uswe've got a dirt contamination.
And the gray to black scaletypically tell us if we have an
elastomer or rubber or hose orwe have metals in the fuel.

(45:50):
So this little chart is toidentify what type of
contaminant and to whatintensity that contaminant
exists.

SPEAKER_03 (45:59):
Would microbes Walter, would microbes show up
on that scale?
Where would micro, like ifthere's microbial contamination
of the fuel, would that show upas a color?

SPEAKER_00 (46:08):
It could, but you've got to remember we're evaluating
this downstream of the filter.
So many times the microbes mightbe trapped by the filter, but
because they're microscopic,they very well can get by the
filter and onto these pads.
And usually they're a veryunique color, but typically a

(46:28):
brown or an amber kind of color.

SPEAKER_03 (46:32):
Okay.
And I I only ask that because uhwe definitely see systems that
are not functioning well.
And sometimes they're trying toproblem solve, and everybody
loves to blame microbes.
Oh, it's gotta be microbes andthe fuel and I want to point out
that it's rare for it to show upat the milliport test.

SPEAKER_00 (46:52):
Yeah, pretty, pretty rare.
But but I gotta tell you, if youdo your due diligence and keep
your water bottoms to a minimum,because the actual microbes
reside in the water phase andthey feed at the interface and
on the hydrocarbons and sulfuresin the fuel.
So if you keep the water bottomto a minimum by doing your

(47:14):
proper QC, then you really won'thave bug issues.
It's when people allow thatwater to accumulate, and these
are sulfur-reducing,sulfur-producing microorganisms.
So they're feeding off the fuel,they're producing a sulfur waste
byproduct.
Sulfur and water, from yourchemistry 101, you remember

(47:36):
sulfur furic acid, and sulfuricacid in the bottom of these
tanks is not good.

SPEAKER_03 (47:41):
It eats the tanks right up.
It creates crevices and dimplesand pitting, and it is very
expensive and difficult torepair.
It's also very expensive anddifficult to get out of steel
once it's the microbes haveplaces to hide.
It's really hard to clean asteel bottom once you get that
pitting.

(48:03):
We've absolutely been on teamsthat have replaced the bottoms
of tanks because the microbialcorrosion made it too expensive
to repair that bottom.
We had to just put a new bottomin the tank.

SPEAKER_00 (48:14):
Well, and I've seen the same thing in actual
aircraft where they have toscrap the airplane.
It totals the airplane becausethere's cross-contamination in
the wing roots and the uhfuselage, and the whole airplane
gets totaled.

SPEAKER_03 (48:26):
Yeah, it's hard to get out once it's there because
it's very hard to get water outof your system, and then it's
hard to get the microbes out.
Like you could clean that wholesystem down to bare steel, put
new fuel in, and the microbesare just in the crevices in the
steel, ready to come back out assoon as some water shows up.

SPEAKER_00 (48:42):
Yeah, we use a product called biobore, which is
a boron product, which is a fuelphase biocide that that is used
to kill these bugs.
The drawback is that that fuelphase biocide remains in the
fuel anywhere it goesdownstream.
So if you do those treatments,your customers have to be
advised that this fuel productthat you're selling them has

(49:04):
been treated with a biocide.

SPEAKER_03 (49:06):
And it's really important for a sensitive
equipment and especially thingslike uh electrical generation,
you need to take into accountwhat you're doing to the fuel
before it goes into yourgenerator.
And same thing with marinevessels.
I think some of the largermarine vessels have pretty
sophisticated generators andengines.

(49:26):
And same thing.
If you're gonna, you know, ifyou've got a microbial problem,
you need to be pretty upfrontwith people what you've done to
the fuel.
So you did mention duediligence, and we've talked a
lot about doing all of thesetests.
And everybody who listens tothis podcast knows how much I
love record keeping and howcritical record keeping is.

(49:47):
Could you talk about trainingand documentation related to
fuel quality and why it's soimportant, Walter, in your
experience?

SPEAKER_00 (49:55):
Yeah, 40 years of doing this.
If you're gonna ask someone toperform a task, you want to make
sure that they're properlytrained and have the proper
tools, especially safetyequipment, to do the job.
And documentation is really thebest defense.
If you did something, write itdown.
If you didn't do something,don't write it down.

SPEAKER_03 (50:18):
So no, no, we say write it down if you didn't do
it.
You write it down one way or theother because they need to know.

SPEAKER_00 (50:27):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (50:29):
But in addition to documentation to meet regulatory
requirements or standardrequirements, right?
Like ATA 103 has a whole bunchof documentation requirements.
But there's a whole nother sideto documentation.
You did bring up briefly, and Idid say I want to stay away from
lawyers, but I do want to talkabout lawsuits and fuel quality,
because especially withaviation, when a plane goes

(50:51):
down, the black box people showup and they start asking
questions.
Uh could you talk about?
I know Walter, you've beeninvolved in many investigations
over the years.
Do you want to talk a little bitabout how documentation plays
into that side of this?

SPEAKER_00 (51:04):
Yeah, and it ties into training as well, because
in the courtroom, in thatwitness stand, if asked a
question about industrystandards or these tests, and
the answer comes back that theydon't know.
Ignorance is such a terribledefense.
And in documentation, you've gotto be able to prove you did it.

(51:27):
So if I do these checks and Idocument that I did these, I can
take that checklist into thecourtroom that now is considered
evidence.
And I can produce it to showthat I did these tasks and they
were done properly.
And here's my training record toshow that I was trained to do

(51:48):
the task properly.
So it becomes integral to anydefense, God forbid, should
something bad happen.

SPEAKER_03 (51:55):
Walter, you're keeping people out of jail.

SPEAKER_00 (52:00):
That's so great.
I'll tell you the other side,uh, the emotional side of it is
you know, no, nobody wants tosee anybody get hurt.
And if they realize that theiractions cause someone else to
perish or be hurt, it's aterrible feeling.
So it's so much better to do theright thing, document it, and be

(52:21):
able to sleep at night knowingthat that you did everything you
could to prevent something badfrom happening.

SPEAKER_03 (52:26):
And at a corporate level as well, you want to show
that the training and thedocumentation occurred because a
lot of times the reasonsomething bad happened isn't
known, and they're just rulingthings out.
And if you don't have gooddocumentation, you may not have
been responsible for it, butit's very difficult to show for
sure that you're not responsiblebecause you don't have the

(52:47):
records showing, you know, it'sjust someone saying they did it,
they don't have thatlong-standing written
documentation.
And our Western court systemdoesn't do well on verbal.
The records are really importantand the training records, too,
which is another very commongap.
You know, the guy gets hired,he's walked through it by his

(53:09):
supervisor until the supervisorfeels that he's good enough at
it.
But there's no on-the-jobtraining checklist that said we
covered this, we covered this,and we covered this.
There's no reference back to theASTM standard or the ATA
standard.
Like we work pretty hard withour clients to create a training
program that includes some kindof on-the-job training, like
documented checkoff that thisperson can do this thing

(53:31):
independently, this person cando the white bucket test
independently, you know, likeall the pieces.
So that when and if you get tothis show us what you did
situation, you've got all thatstuff ready to go.

SPEAKER_00 (53:45):
And it's clear.
Yeah, show us what you did andprove it.
Yeah.
You know, in any SMS safetymanagement system, we have a
policy that says, this is thewhat we're gonna do.
We're gonna be safe.
And then you have a procedureand says these are the steps
we're gonna take in inperforming these tasks to be
safe.
And then you have an auditfunction where we go out and

(54:06):
look to see if that's whatyou're doing.
You can change the procedure oryou can change what you're
doing, but they got a match.

SPEAKER_03 (54:14):
Yes.
And I definitely can attest tothe fact that we have people
using procedures that werewritten so long ago that they're
like written for top-loadingtrucks, but they're all on
bottom loading trucks now,right?
But nobody went and updated theprocedure.
And they're signing people offon it because that's what you
do.
But you do have to make sure toupdate your procedures as your

(54:35):
equipment changes.
Same thing with like newfueling, like filtration system
skids.
They'll put a whole newfiltration system in, it
arrives, but they don't actuallychange their how-to-check their
filter procedures, even ifthey've put in a whole new
system.

SPEAKER_00 (54:48):
Yeah, it's really terrible.
And I I see it a lot.

SPEAKER_03 (54:51):
Well, we see it a lot because it's hard to do,
Walter.
I I I have a lot of empathy forenvironmental managers who are
supposed to be in health andsafety, HSE, like they're
supposed to be making theseprograms effective and operating
them.
And I have a lot of empathy forthe people who are doing a
million things, and theirprimary job is to fuel aircraft
safely or or run electricalgeneration safely or whatever

(55:13):
they're doing.
And this record keeping istacked onto the back of it.
It's hard to do.
That's why we see so many gaps.
But that's why we have thispodcast to help people fill
those gaps and hopefully makesome part of their process
better.
You don't have to do it all atonce.
I think listeners to thisprogram have heard me say this
before.
Everything is a process.
Start with the most highestpriority step, what makes the

(55:34):
biggest impact, you can get tothe rest later.
It doesn't have to be everythingall at once.

SPEAKER_00 (55:38):
Well, it's eating the elephant.
Yes.
You've got to do it one littlestep at a time.
And over time you'll get it alldone.
And it looks ominous, but if youdon't have documented procedures
and training records thatsupport those, and God forbid
something happens, it reallylooks bad.
And you think, man, I shouldhave taken the time to do that.

SPEAKER_03 (56:01):
So we've covered everything we need to do to make
sure the fuel stays highquality.
But I did want to touch onbefore we go, Walter, what do we
do if the fuel fails thosetests?
Because, you know, I live inreality, as do you.
Sometimes the fuel fails thetest.
So what do we do at that point?

SPEAKER_00 (56:20):
The key word here is stop.
Because many times when badthings start happening, people
start moving faster and more badthings happen.
Yeah.
So if there's a question aboutfuel quality, stop.
Number one, isolate the fuel inquestion.

(56:40):
Let's make sure that thisdoesn't get anywhere else before
we figure this out.

SPEAKER_03 (56:45):
Number two, hold on.
Before we go into number two, Ihave to say this.
Mixing bad fuel with good fuelwill not solve your problem.
Dilution is not the solution.
I just I would like to say that.

SPEAKER_00 (57:00):
Dilution is not the solution to pollution, right?

SPEAKER_03 (57:02):
Dilution is not the solution to fuel quality either.
And I'll just say that for noreason whatsoever.
Okay, go ahead, Walter.
Number two.

SPEAKER_00 (57:10):
In working for a major oil, many times they had
off-spec product that they said,well, we're gonna put some good
product on top and make it allgood.
And it just makes a whole lotmore bad.

SPEAKER_03 (57:21):
Remember, we're talking about one micron.
Like it's very difficult to getyour dilution to the level that
one micron won't show up.

SPEAKER_00 (57:32):
Well, it the solid contamination is usually fixed
readily easily, not by mixingother fuel, but I get your
point.

SPEAKER_03 (57:41):
Well, and microbial contamination is definitely
where we see this.
They're trying to save this fuelthat's been contaminated with
microbes and mixing it, it justprovides an all-expenses paid
buffet for the microbes.
I mean, you're just giving themmore fuel.

SPEAKER_00 (57:58):
Yeah.
In the case of microbial growth,the first thing to do is to get
the water bottom off and removeany solids, typically by
polishing the fuel.
If you've got a treat with abiocide and don't want to notify
customers downstream, we can runclay treaters in to take the
biocide back out before wedeliver to customers.

(58:20):
But so there's other ways to doit.
But to my number two point isnotify the proper authorities.
Call somebody, somebody whoknows.

SPEAKER_03 (58:28):
And that's typically within your own company, and
then that's gonna be like aclient liaison kind of a thing,
right?
Like you got to let yoursupervisor know there's a
problem, and then they're gonnatake care of it on the sales and
service side, which will isolateand treat the problem at your
facility.

SPEAKER_00 (58:43):
You know, I I quite often get a call, and it usually
starts out with, hey Walter,you're not gonna believe this.
And then they tell me about thissituation, you know.
And and you know, we we want tobe a resource for our company
and for our customers, and whenthey call, we help walk them
through what they should do now.

SPEAKER_03 (59:03):
Yeah, but there's no fuel police that you need to
call.
Because I uh when you say notifythe authorities, all of our guys
are thinking about spillresponse too.
But there's not really a fuelpolice.
But as part of being a fuelprovider, you definitely need to
let people know some of ourclients are end users, like I
said, electrical generation.
You probably don't need tonotify anybody except within
your company, but you're gonnaneed resources to fix the

(59:26):
problem, and that's part of thenotification is you're gonna
have to isolate this fuel, butthen you're gonna also have to
get help to fix whatever causedthat problem in the first place.
It's not just gonna go away.

SPEAKER_00 (59:36):
Right.
You want to get somebody in theknow, kind of the next step
after you notify everybody toinvestigate and really determine
what the cause of the anomalyis.
How did we get this problem?
What went wrong?
Did we have a filter burst?
Are their hoses going bad?
Did nobody receive the productproperly?
I mean, where did the problemcome from?
It may be in a case where wejust recirculate the fuel to

(01:00:00):
Remove particulates in water.
And that's called fuelpolishing, where we just turn
the fuel over and filter andfilter and filter to clean it
up.
As we do that, and certainly aswe remove solids, we're going to
see an increased differentialpressure.
And it may cause us to have tochange filters during that
process till we get the fuelcorrect.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:21):
And that can work sometimes, but you need to do it
conscientiously and you need todocument it very well because
you're going to want to showthat I ran this through the
filter 16 times or whatever youneed to do.
And then I still think notifyingthe end user or the delivery
that that, you know, that thisoccurred is probably the right
thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:41):
Well, and yeah, you can get to the point where
you're actually going to have todo some laboratory testing,
sending some samples off.
MCEP, microcep barometer, orwater reaction test, it really
tells us how well waterseparates from the fuel.
So if we have some kind ofsurfactant, some kind of soap,

(01:01:02):
some kind of detergent, thistypically occurs from
cross-contamination with dieselfuel that has water detergents
in it or cleaning detergents,additives in the fuel, where all
of a sudden the water's notseparating out, it's staying in
the fuel.
It may be, you know, that we doan existing gums evaluation to
see if there's any residual gumsin the fuel or copper corrosion.

(01:01:25):
Maybe we have a pH problem.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:28):
Go back to gums.
What is gums?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:32):
So interesting.
In Alaska, when we put up oursnow machines for the summer, we
come back next winter and welook in the fuel tank and we
notice that there's a clearfluid on the top and there's all
this gooey stuff on the bottomof the tank.
What's happened over the summeris you've had a delamination of

(01:01:52):
the fuel to resolve in gums andvarnishes.
So the gums is that gooey stuffin the bottom of the tank.
The varnish is the fluid that'sleft from the fuel after it's
come apart.
We're looking for those gummytype substances in the fuel.
Many times they can come fromdeterioration of elastomers or
hoses, rubber components.

(01:02:14):
Sometimes we see it from liners.
It's something we measure whenwe put a new tank in service to
see if there's any gums from themanufacturing process, greases
and solvents or lubricants thatare in the permeability of the
steel when they built the tank.
So we want to make sure we havea very low gums number, gooey

(01:02:35):
stuff in the fuel.
The next is copper stripcorrosion.
We're looking for kind of thepH.
Is this caustic?
Will this fuel corrode thingsdownstream?
And lastly, more for theairplane than anything, is Jeff
Tot, J F T O T.
It's the Jet Fuel ThermalOxidation T.

(01:02:56):
What does that do?
It just makes sure that we don'thave any products in the fuel
that are going to cause cokingand sooting when the fuel is
burned.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:07):
That was a really good overview of those tests,
but those have to go to you haveto take that sample and send it
to a laboratory, correct?
You can't do those.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:16):
Yeah, these are all laboratory evaluations.
That is correct.
I mean, walking through ourprocess, if we know we've got a
problem, we figure out stop theprocess, notify the proper
folks.
Let's figure out what theanomaly is.
If it's something that's causingthe fuel to be off spec, it may
be something as simple as we gotdirt in the fuel and we've got

(01:03:37):
to run it through filtrationenough to get it cleaned up, but
it may be something that causesus to send a sample off to the
lab to get evaluated.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:46):
Okay.
That makes a lot of sense.
I know in Alaska the laboratoryis located in Balbi's because of
the Trans-Alaska pipeline, Iwould imagine.
There are locations in otherstates.
It's pretty common.
Most laboratories can run thesetests.
But I'm glad you went throughthat because I think a lot of
people panic when something goeswrong.
And I think it's important tokind of just be prepared.

(01:04:09):
Don't worry about itobsessively.
But if something goes wrong, nowyou know what to do.
There's steps, there's varyinglevels of severity going all the
way up to figuring out what'swrong and then doing some
testing to help you furtherunderstand what went wrong.
So all of these tests you justtalked about, Walter, they come
from standards and fuelspecifications and all these
engineering aids that helpdesigners and operators of

(01:04:34):
transportation and storageinfrastructure set up systems
that work.
I was hoping we could talkthrough some of the fuel
specifications and maybe some ofthe facilities and fuel
maintenance standards that youuse on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:46):
In aviation fuels, it's ASTM, American Society of
Standard Testing Materials.
D1655 is the test parameters forjet fuel, and ASTM D910 is the
test parameters for aviationgasoline 100 low lead.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:05):
And I can add the other side if you want.
Diesel's ASTM D975, and thengasoline products.
But in general, gasoline andunlead is under uh ASTM D4814,

(01:05:28):
which is it's got a long name,but it's like gasoline type
fuels for spark ignited enginesor something really goofy like
that.
So for facilities and fuelmaintenance, there's also some
like API recommended practices.
Do you want to talk about thoseas well?

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:45):
Yeah, two we use most commonly are API RP, like
you mentioned, for recommendedpractice, 1595.
And that really addresses thedesign, construction, operation,
maintenance, and inspection ofpre-airfield storage terminals.
So this is where the refuel isreceived before it gets to the

(01:06:07):
airport.
And API RP 1540.
And this really guides us as tothe design, construction, and
even the operation andmaintenance of the specific
airport fueling facilities.
So these are going to be thefuel farms at the airport.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:26):
And those two API apply to tanks and aviation
service.
If you have an Avgas tank atyour bulk fuel facility, 1595
applies.
It's a pre-airfield storageterminal.
But on top of all of that, ifyou have a facility with mixed
fuels, API RP1525, it's bulk oiltesting, handling, and storage

(01:06:50):
guidelines.
That applies to the wholefacility.
And then for your tanks that arein jet or app gas service, you
also have the pre-airfield one,the RP1595.
So I just want to make sure ourlisteners know that there's
layers to this facility onionhere.
And then these API standards,they talk not only about how to
design and construct, butthere's also operations piece.

(01:07:12):
And that's why I'm mentioningthem here is because I want
people to understand that a lotof our operations and
maintenance and inspectionrequirements are coming from
these recommended practices.
It's not just something to referto when you're designing and
building a new storage tankfarm, for example.
It's something that you're goingto have to refer back to for ops
and maintenance as well.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:30):
You know, Sheannon, you make a good point there that
these become almost a frameworkfor writing those manuals that
seem such a challenging jobbecause if you adopt these and
customize them to youroperation, 80% of your work is
already done.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:47):
And a lot of really smart engineers went into the
making of these recommendedpractices.
I mean, these are industryexperts that get together and
beat it to death, having beenpart of some of these committee
meetings.
I'm sure you have been too,Walter.
But these recommended practicesare a good place to start for
your program.
It's like an 80% lift.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:06):
And do you know what an expert is?
Tell me, Walter.
What's an expert?
An ex is a has been, and a spurtis a drip under pressure.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:19):
I don't know if I want to be an expert by
yourself.
Yeah, you don't know who I wantto be an expert.
So the last piece of this puzzlefor engineering standards, I do
want to talk about operationalstandards.
So there, especially theaviation industry, they have a
very specific operationalstandard.
We have a whole other podcast onit, which is ATA 103.

(01:08:40):
But when you and I spoke beforethis podcast, Walter, there was
a couple others that youmentioned that I want our
listeners to know about too.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:47):
You and I visited about API 1529, which actually
talks to the hoses, the fuelinghoses that are used, not only
for fueling the aircraft, buttransferring the fuel.
You know, it's interestingbecause if you look at API 1529,
it talks about soaking,flushing, and operations that

(01:09:09):
have to be done before the hoseis put into service.
And when I tell people, well,you have to buy the new hose,
you have to put it in, you haveto fill it with fuel, and you
have to let it soak eight hours,and then you have to discard
that fuel and then flush and run500 gallons through it prior to
putting the hose in service,they look at me like I have

(01:09:30):
three heads.
And they just aren't aware thatthat ever had to be done.
They put a new hose on and startfueling.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:37):
A lot of people put the new hose on and start
fueling, but for the reasons wetalked about before, the inside
of that hose could have allsorts of stuff on it from
manufacturing, storage,transportation, and you you do
have to flush it out.
And so I'm really glad youbrought that up because I think
as an industry, we need toremember that that's something
that needs to be done and makesure it's part of our operations

(01:09:59):
and our standard practices.
And then there's one more I wantyou to talk about related to
what I like to call themillipore test, but is not
actually called the milliporetest.
But that's what everybody callsit.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:12):
Everybody calls it that.
It's just interesting over timehow that's developed.
But ASTM 2276, the filtermembrane test slash millipore.
It actually is in ATA 103, andtypically we do the downstream
filter prior to delivery.

(01:10:32):
And what I mean by that is youhave two inlets to connect the
millipore test kit to one isupstream and one is downstream.
And what we really areinterested in most is the
downstream.
The affluent going out of thefilter, does it meet this D2276
standard of four in the chart,ABG, four or less wet, three or

(01:10:59):
less dry.
So A3, B3, G3, or less is apass.
If we fail, if we have a fourwet or more, A6, A8, B7,
whatever, then we actually haveto test the upstream or the
inlet side of the filter.

(01:11:20):
So we're going to determine withthis test is the filter the
problem?
Because if we have a passingscore going into the filter and
a failing score coming out, thattells us the filter is burst and
putting contaminants in the fuelrather than taking them out.
That's why we test downstream atthe final filter before we make
a delivery.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:41):
I'm really glad you went through that because I'm
not entirely sure sometimes thatpeople understand what pass
means for a milliport test.
They just do it and they say,it's pretty much white, I'm good
to go, and then it's pass.
But I think it's a process.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:56):
In teaching this, these classes all these years, I
asked the question, how manypeople do the millipore test?
And you know, half the classwill raise their hands.
And then I'll ask, okay, what'sa pass and what's a fail?
And nobody says anything.
And I'll say, okay, let me askagain, who does millipore?

(01:12:17):
Well, and I've said becausewe've shown them how to do the
test, we don't tell them whywe're doing the test, and we
don't tell them what a pass anda fail is.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:25):
No troubleshooting ability.
Yeah.
Yeah, agreed.
Well, Walter, I have reallyenjoyed our conversation today.
You're such an amazing and smartperson.
I'm so thankful that you came onour podcast to share that with
our listeners.
I did want to ask if you had anyresources to share.
And you mentioned there was anExcel sheet for filter

(01:12:46):
differential correction.
And you also provided us aschematic earlier that kind of
shows all of the fuel systemprocess and sort of all the
transfer points and points whereyou would want to do fuel
quality checks.
So we'll include that with ourshow notes.
Is there anything else that youwould recommend our listeners if
they want to learn more aboutfuel quality that would help

(01:13:06):
them learn more?

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:08):
AT8, Aviation Trading Academy, my little
company, is certainly aresource.
We we certainly want to beavailable to you and your
customers.
Of course, AT8 103 itself reallysets the standard for jet fuels.
The Steel Tank Institute, SP001,has free webinars on water
management.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:28):
I do want to clarify for our listeners that Aviation
Training Academy is the name ofyour company that performs
trainings all over the UnitedStates, and they will come to
your facility and do trainingthere, which I think is a great
training approach.
The ATA 103 is Airline TransportAssociation 103, and it's a
recommended practice from theairline industry.

(01:13:50):
So you guys are being veryclever with your naming, but I
also want to make sure peopleunderstand when they look up ATA
103, that's this airlineindustry standard that we all
know and love slash hate forrecord keeping and operations
procedures.
And then Aviation TrainingAcademy is a group that exists
to help you with those things.
So I'll put the links to both inthe show notes.

(01:14:10):
And then do you have any partingwords for our audience, Walter?

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:14):
I work with people at fuel airplanes all the time,
and I'll I'll even include thisas maybe an attachment.
It's called the quality controlcreed.
And it goes like this it'simpossible to accurately measure
the results of the safe andproper handling of aircraft
fuel.
No one can count the fires thatnever started, the engine
failures that never take place,nor can anyone evaluate the

(01:14:37):
lives that have been saved orplumb the depths of human misery
that were spared.
But the man or woman in chargeof fuel quality can find
satisfaction that he or she hasworked wisely and well and that
safety has been their firstconsideration.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:51):
Oh, Walter, way to wrap it up.
That is I don't think anyone'sever gonna top that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:00):
Not a dry eye in the place.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:02):
Oh my goodness.
Oh, thank you so much.
Fuel quality is verycomplicated, and there are a lot
of moving pieces to it, but Ithink this overview of the of
the process will help peopleunderstand where they need to
learn more, maybe find some gapsin their system.
And each individual piece ofthis system is not super
difficult.
It's just that there are a lotof them.

(01:15:22):
So I'm glad and I'm verythankful that you came to talk
to us today about that andhelped us understand it.
Thank you so much, Walter.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:29):
It's been my pleasure.
I wish you and your customerswell.
And please call us if we can beresourced.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:34):
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Hi there.
This is Shannon Olkers.
And as the owner of IntegrityEnvironmental, I wanted to take
a minute here at the end of thepodcast to make sure that you
knew the following.
This podcast is forinformational purposes only and
should not be considered legalor regulatory advice.
We are not responsible for anylosses, damages, or liabilities

(01:15:57):
that may arise from the use ofthis podcast.
This podcast is not intended toreplace professional regulatory
or legal advice.
And the views expressed in thispodcast may not be those of the
host, that would be me, orintegrity environmental.
Thank you very much forlistening.
And if you do need professionalregulatory advice, we'd be happy
to help you as part of ourconsulting services.