March 25, 2025 • 35 mins
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Healthcare provider burnout has become an epidemic affecting practitioners across all career stages. What was once considered a late-career phenomenon now strikes even new graduates just entering the field. Why is this happening, and what can we do about it?
Trauma therapist Melissa joins us to unpack this critical issue from her unique perspective as both a former ER mental health provider and now a therapist who treats healthcare workers. She reveals how the collective weight of patient trauma, workplace tension, and societal polarization creates an unsustainable environment for those dedicated to helping others.
"We're all trying to keep the balloons in the air and no one really knows how," Melissa explains, capturing the overwhelming nature of modern healthcare practice. The conversation explores how fear manifests throughout healthcare—fear of instability, inadequate resources, and increasingly challenging patient interactions. Rather than building sustainable careers spanning decades, many providers now cycle through positions every few years, perpetuating nationwide shortages while never addressing burnout's root causes.
Perhaps most revealing is the discussion of how healthcare workers internalize trauma. "When somebody puts their trauma on us, we pull that in, we carry that," Melissa observes. Without proper release mechanisms, providers normalize extraordinary stressors as "just another Tuesday," while the emotional burden accumulates beneath the surface.
The episode concludes with practical resources for finding affordable mental health support and challenging misconceptions about therapy. Modern trauma approaches like EMDR don't require reliving difficult experiences to heal from them—a crucial insight for healthcare workers hesitant to seek help. Remember: self-care isn't selfish; it's essential for providing quality care to others.
Take time for yourself and discover how mental health support can transform your healthcare career from unsustainable to fulfilling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelli White (00:16):
All right, welcome back everybody.
This is another episode ofTattoos and Telehealth and today
we are going to chit chat alittle bit about something that
has been kind of near and dearto my heart, especially just
because it affected mepersonally.
But before we get started Ijust want to say because our
lawyers make us do this thatthis is not medical advice by
(00:37):
any means and that this videoand anything we discuss here
does not constitute a patientprovider relationship.
But this morning I want tointroduce a dear friend of mine
who I met professionally andthen became friends with, and
that is Melissa, and she has herown telemedicine slash,
in-person kind of hybridcounseling therapy type.
(01:00):
I'm going to let her get intothat a little bit more, but we
are going to chat about the veryawful, very real situation of
provider burnout, especiallywhen it comes to nurses,
healthcare providers, and whythat looks so aggressive I guess
would be the best way to sayright now Whereas you know that
(01:23):
was something, nicole, I thinkthat in our generation that we
saw nurses, you know, in theirforties, fifties, getting ready
for retirement, but I mean now,and I think Melissa would agree,
she was even seeing brand newnurses and healthcare providers
burning out very quickly.
So, Melissa, what do you feellike is something that you're
seeing as like a common themewith health care providers?
Melissa (01:51):
Well, it's interesting because I, you know, prior to
private practice, I was workingin ERs and psychiatry or our
psych ER and then the regular ERbecause we would kind of
consult on those cases our psychER and then the regular ER
because we would kind of consulton those cases.
And I think that's where youknow it was, during COVID, like
(02:12):
right on the cusp of COVID intowhatever we're in right now, and
I think that so what washappening in that provider
situation was a lot of.
So there were a lot of nursesthat were travel nurses and
stuff happening in the ER.
So a lot of the older nurseswho had been there for a long
time and had that tenure wereleaving because they were
(02:36):
working with a lot of people whowere, you know, just coming in
and out and the homelesspopulation just kind of blew up
at that time and the resourcesaren't there, and so when you
kind of put all of that stufftogether, what I was seeing was
a lot of we need more resources,we need more tools and we don't
(02:57):
have them, and so in that, andthat was just in that role,
right, and then I move intoprivate practice, so now I'm
seeing providers in therapy, soI have all kinds of different
clients from every walk of life,but I do see a lot of providers
a lot of other therapists, alot of nurses, doctors,
professors, and what'sinteresting is, I think we're
(03:21):
just all trying to keep theballoons in the air and no one
really knows how to.
Kelli White (03:28):
Tell us a little about your practice, like what
is, what is your practice?
What do you do?
Melissa (03:33):
So at this point right now.
So I have, like you said, ahybrid, but I'm about to move
into fully virtual at the end ofthe year.
It just makes more sense atthis point and a lot of people
are wanting it.
I do have a lot of clients whoreally appreciate that in person
, but there's just so manypeople who are wanting virtual
as well, so it's tough.
(03:53):
It's a tough decision, but somy practice is I offer trauma
therapy.
So I do a lot of the traumamodalities with people.
That's kind of my niche and hasbeen for a really long time,
and I've always worked with avery acute population.
That's just always what I'vedone as well, and so I really
love that.
(04:13):
I love working with people whoare really kind of rough around
the edges.
I work with psychedelics.
I did I'm probably going tomove out of that a little bit,
as you know, as shifting moreinto just really focusing on
some of these things like EMDR,accelerated resolution therapy,
those types of things.
So we'll see where that roadgoes, but done a lot with that.
(04:36):
And yeah, I think at this pointmost of the people I'm seeing
are just it's a lot of the samestory over and over and over.
Right, we have our trauma from,or adversity or things that
we've experienced in our life.
But now it's like last week.
Right Was hard for everybody.
It doesn't matter where youstand on the political spectrum
(04:58):
everyone's rooted in fear ofsome sort right?
So it's just we're all feelingthe heaviness of the fears of
you know these things based onour values, what we're seeing,
the all of the informationcoming at us.
Do I have the tools to managethat?
I don't know.
Right, I have people working inuniversities who feel like you
(05:20):
know that politics can shiftthat, or who's in office can
shift their job and like whatthat's going to look like long
term.
Or, you know, it's likeeverybody has feels like so much
is riding on everything that'sgoing on.
So it's just fear, I think.
I think, if you just break itall down, everyone's in fear.
Nicole Baldwin (05:41):
I think a lot of reactions, just in general with
the human population is drivenby fear, even if it's even if it
comes out as anger, comes outas anxiety or or or depression.
I think a lot, of, a lot of itjust boils down to fear because
there's so much of the unknown,like you said, not just this
week, but just in general.
You know, especially with COVID, you know with just it's just
the way things are going.
I know it was hard for Kelliand I as well to go virtual Um,
(06:05):
but the need is so much there.
So do you provide care topatients in Texas?
Melissa (06:11):
Yeah, I may.
So we are planning to move outof state in a few years and
we're looking at Arkansas andI'll probably get licensed in
Arkansas.
However, I think we're about tohave a pact you know similar, I
don't know.
Do you guys have like a pactthing where you can operate in
other states?
Kelli White (06:28):
So not as nurse practitioners we have to apply
individually.
As nurse practitioners, our RNlicense is compact to several
other states, but as nursepractitioners we have to apply
individually, so that's kind ofawesome.
Right now they haven't passedany legislation to make that
compact, which I feel likethat's coming.
I don't know that it'll happenduring our working generation.
(06:49):
I think that states need thatmoney still, and so I think that
that's something thatlegislation may not catch up
with while we're stillpracticing, but I think it
probably will.
Melissa (07:00):
Okay, yeah, so my license is as a clinical social
worker, so as therapists.
There are a few differentroutes.
You get that going for us,which it's looking like maybe
within the next couple of years,and so I think right now
there's like 13 states on it andso states can kind of join as
(07:22):
they go.
So I don't know how many willbe on that, but then we should
(07:42):
be able to operate within all ofthose.
It's kind of interestingbecause one of the billing
companies I use they will basedupon, so like, for instance, I
can see people in Massachusettsfor this one insurance because
they lack providers.
So I think little stuff likethat is happening as well.
You know, people are startingto get creative in these like
moments of like okay, we have noresources, how can we like work
within this framework to makethings?
Nicole Baldwin (08:04):
happen.
Same during COVID we could workacross across 99% of the States
as a nurse practitioner duringthis emergency order.
Now our RN license, which youhave to have an RN to have an NP
, so why we have to keep bothlicenses, I don't know.
But our RN license is like thatthere's States that have joined
it and there's some thathaven't, but most States have
(08:27):
joined it and so you only haveto have one.
You have to have like a compact.
So it's very, very similar tothat where States can kind of
join and every year or two morejoin.
So I'm glad to see that becausedefinitely in your expertise
there is such a demand, there issuch a demand for your type of
service counseling, the therapy,the just all of it, the social
(08:49):
work in general.
So I'm really glad to hear thatFor sure.
Yeah.
Melissa (08:53):
Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, we often talk
about, like, the negatives ofCOVID and a lot of negative
things would happen, and we'restill feeling that, but a lot of
really innovative things happento you.
I mean, the fact that we'resitting here right now is an
innovation that who knows wouldhave happened if, like you know,
covid didn't happen, eventhough we were probably moving
(09:13):
in this direction.
It was like no, we got to do ittoday.
And so now it's just the norm,right.
Like when this first started Iwas so uncomfortable being on
video with.
I was like, oh, this is soimpersonal, like it just
especially with therapy.
I was like, oh, I just don'tthink I could ever do that.
But you start to get used to itand it's like wait a second,
you can have as profound ofsessions virtually and, as a
(09:36):
matter of fact, this person cansit in the comfort of their home
, you know, with their dog andtheir blanket, and you have a
good session, you know, asopposed to them driving 30
minutes to the office and stuff.
So you know, it's not as bad asI originally thought.
So it's been really interestingactually.
Kelli White (09:57):
Yeah for sure.
Um, so what do you feel like?
I know we kind of got off tracka little bit, but what do you
feel like has become such adrive for the rate of burnout
that we're seeing now, or do youfeel like that is still a big
deal?
Melissa (10:17):
Burnout.
It's funny because I alwayshave to try and zoom out,
because if you ask me,everybody's burned out, right,
but that's everybody I see,because I spend all of my days
with people who come to me andput all of their stuff that
doesn't feel great down on thetable, right.
(10:38):
So if you ask me, everybody'sdepressed and everybody's burned
out, and everybody has trauma,but that's my whole world.
So it's hard.
I have to like really zoom outand I'm like, okay, not
everybody feels this way, right,um, but you know, when you,
when you kind of live in thatbubble, um, you, you just that's
, you think that that's what'sgoing on everywhere.
(11:00):
But, um, I do, I do see it alot.
I feel like, and I kept sayingthis so we just recently went to
the Midwest and everyone was sokind.
We were in Ohio, it was, Idon't know.
It was so weird.
Everywhere we went, even justlike gas station, everyone was
just so genuinely kind.
And maybe it was a fluke, Idon't know, but I was thinking.
(11:20):
So I live in the DFW area and Iwas like, you know, it just
seems so aggressive here now.
You know it didn't used to belike this and I feel like that's
part of it is like because theheaviness of what's going on
everywhere, you add, like thecost of living goes up, you
(11:46):
can't afford groceries, you haveto work multiple jobs.
I have multiple clients whohave to live with multiple
roommates in order just to liveas in their thirties.
You know, like people aren't,they don't feel like they have
the stability anymore and, Ithink, added on top of that,
there's a lot more aggressivebehavior, even if you're not
(12:06):
seeing it out and about, becauseyou're online all the time.
Everyone's aggressive online,so you start to be in that
bubble of like everyone'saggressive.
I hate my job.
I have to work three of them, Ihave to live with these people
that.
I wish I kind of had my ownspace.
I can't.
I have no one that I can reallytalk to because now my family's
polarized because we havedifferent political views.
(12:27):
You know, it's like there'snowhere to turn.
That feels safe or good anymore, I think, and a lot even so,
there's still a lot of peoplewho aren't getting out into
nature anymore and things likethat.
That was one thing I saw duringCOVID, which was really awesome
too.
Nicole Baldwin (12:41):
Anytime, I went on the trail there were like
hundreds of people and I waslike, yes, bikes were on a
shortage.
Bikes were on a shortage, likeit was great.
Melissa (12:51):
Yeah, it was awesome to see and I I was hoping it would
sustain, but it it hasn't.
But you know, anyway, I justthink that I think it's that
immense pressure.
It's like a pressure cooker andpeople feel like they can't get
out of it.
And you can, you just have towork for it a little bit.
But I think it's just the.
You know, it's that um, I don'tknow if you've ever had a job
(13:13):
where you like go in and you'relike gung-ho, really excited,
but then you feel the vibeeverybody's burned out and it
just sucks you right in and Ithink that's kind of where a lot
of people are.
Kelli White (13:26):
So do you think that that has contributed to the
younger population of providerscoming out of school rapidly
burning out, like faster thanwhat we would expect, because
they're responding to theenvironment that they're in?
Melissa (13:44):
Yes, so it's weird because I so I'm on a lot of
therapist pages, like Facebookpages, because I like to see
what other people are talkingabout.
You're kind of on an island asa therapist, because even if you
work in a group practice andyou probably experience this as
(14:05):
well I mean you probably workcloser with providers when
you're in person, but we don'twork with somebody else.
You know we're in sessions allday and you may have two minutes
where you're going to thebathroom, so you, there's not a
lot of time where you're talkingand getting to.
You know, just do that chitchat, Right?
So I like get on these pagesand it is actually incredible
(14:27):
the amount of burnout thattherapists talk about and I
think sometimes it's working forlike agencies, like community
mental health, where you haveway too many patients at a time
and you're making no money andthat it's just hard because you
so in a therapy session, you'rein it for an hour, right, you
are, 100% of your soul is online, right, Like I am holding that
(14:53):
space and every word that thisperson is saying I am taking in.
Right, I am hearing, I amconceptualizing like which, you
know, what can we do here?
How can we work with this thing.
Like you, you, 100% of yourself, is there, right, and you're
doing that for, you know, six,seven, eight, 12 hours, right.
(15:13):
So in community mental health,you have people coming in who
are homeless, you know, havesevere drug issues, have no
family, you have limitedresources.
You're trying to hold all ofthat space for all of these
people and you're doing it at agrand scale and then they're
just putting more cases, morecases, more cases.
So I see that that's reallyhard.
You can't sustain that.
(15:34):
It's.
That is unsustainable.
You know there's not enough ofme to put into that space, Right
.
So that's, I think that causesburnout.
And then, but in privatepractice, I think it's weird I'm
seeing this so much workingwith insurance companies, people
that burns people out.
There's again, I think that'sbased in fear, fear of these
(15:56):
clawbacks of, like you know,like coming after you and
telling you you're not doingwhat you're supposed to be doing
, things like that.
I think just the heavinessthat's brought to the table is
hard to maintain long term, thetension of everything, the angst
.
Nicole Baldwin (16:15):
just you're constantly on the edge of
everything all the time, likeyou were talking about going
into work in a good mood, butyou're.
You also read the room rightand the tension you can cut.
You know just everybody's angst.
And it may be individually,everybody has their own story
right and everybody has theirown things that they're dealing
(16:36):
with.
So even if you're into asituation where everybody is
just in their in their own head,trying to deal with their own
life, then trying to take careof other people around them as
well, or you could have, youknow, everyone you know working
on that Maybe, maybe it's a it'sa company issue and so
everybody's having the sameissue, and then that also, can
(16:58):
you know, can cause angst justin.
I think just there's tensioneverywhere.
Like you said, you go to someplaces and they're really nice
and I can tell you like I seepatients nationwide, but my
specifically I'm not sayingother States are rude, so I'm
not, I'm not saying that myArkansas, north Carolina, south
Carolina and Tennessee patientsare awesome, like they are
(17:22):
always pleasant.
Kelli White (17:24):
Always, always.
Nicole Baldwin (17:25):
That doesn't mean everybody else is rude, I'm
not saying that.
But if I get somebody andthey're like super nice and
sweet, and just genuine and justa now.
I see people at their worst.
So does Kelli, so do you like?
We all see people at theirworst, but when people can still
not feel well and present toyou in just this best pleasant
(17:51):
that they can, at that momentLike it's, it's a breath of
fresh air.
And I always look and I say, oh, I bet you're from Arkansas,
Like I always look to see whatstate they're from, because I a
lot of times it's Arkansas,North Carolina, South Carolina,
Tennessee.
Melissa (18:04):
Yeah, it's fascinating that there's like a morale, just
like in a job right In a state.
It's pretty fascinating howthat works.
Yeah, I think that what isreally interesting is we also
have our stuff right and we haveto put that on the back burner
(18:27):
too, and I think that's theother thing people struggle with
.
You know, we've been doing thisfor so long I've been in this
field for so long.
It's very easy for me to likecompartmentalize that stuff and
like, okay, like my stuff is mystuff, whatever, not a big deal.
But I do think that that's hardfor people, especially right
now because, like you're talkingabout all that tension, for
some people that is not so easyto do.
(18:51):
And honestly I'm not saying it'sa good thing that we can do
that.
Honestly, I see a lot ofproviders nurses you know
different providers who that'swhy they're coming to therapy is
because they've been puttingtheir own stuff on the back
burner for too long Right.
And pushing that down and allthe trauma they've been through
like nurses, especially in likeICU type situations.
(19:11):
I mean that's very traumaticjob.
So I'm not saying it'snecessarily a good thing.
But you think about thatdynamic difference, like as a
therapist, as working full time.
It is a one sided relationship.
I am showing up, I am providingthat space for all of these
people to unload.
Now, what if I didn't have aplace where I could like be
(19:34):
authentically myself and be ableto say that, cause, that's not
what's happening with my clients, right?
That's a one-sided relationship.
So they get to unload andunpack and I'm holding all of
that.
If I don't do anything with that, well then I'm gonna burn out
right and I don't think thatpeople are doing the self-care
(19:55):
that they need to do.
You know, we're all guilty ofit providers aren't.
Nicole Baldwin (20:00):
I'm not no, I mean, we're just not.
We're, we're just not, they'reso and I think it just comes
with like being healthcareproviders in general, just like
you know, the three of us, likewe didn't come into this field
because we want to.
You know we're selfish and wantto care about you know ourself,
we want to put other peoplefirst, and so that kind of comes
(20:22):
with our territory.
But it comes at such a I don'tknow like, the more you do it,
the more you're aware of it, butyou know, obviously, the more
burnt out you get.
But I think that it is just atsuch a high scale that right now
, health care in the nationthere's such a shortage,
specifically in mental health,but even in just primary care
(20:44):
there's an, in just care ingeneral there's a shortage.
Care there's an inch and justcare in general there's a
shortage.
And so you know, I can see Xamount of patients, but there's
so many more that need help.
And at the same time I feeldefeated because I can't.
Maybe I can only see, I'm justmaking a random number, but
maybe I, maybe I can only see,you know, 15 patients a day and
(21:04):
I can't.
I want to see 20, but I can'tbecause that affects my quality
of care.
But then so I feel like, yes,I've helped 15 people, but I
still carry with me the othersthat I weren't, that I couldn't
help you know like.
Kelli and I both come from ICUtrauma trauma world.
We save a lot of lives andthat's something we should
celebrate.
Kelli White (21:22):
We have saved hundreds, I'm sure, but at the
same time, there's those onesthat we lose that really take a
toll on us.
Nicole Baldwin (21:31):
So, even though we've saved, you know, 100
people, you know that child orthat young person or that I mean
even the elderly as well.
It's a little bit rougher forme to see trauma with children
and young and young adults whodidn't have that life to live.
But you can save as many as asmany.
(21:52):
You can save a million, but ifyou have a couple that you
struggle with, you're stillgoing to struggle.
So it's, I think, that, as peryou, carry that.
Melissa (22:01):
We carry that with us forever, you know, and I don't
think that people really realizebecause, you know, and I'm sure
you know, me and Kelli havetalked about this in the past,
but as I don't know how much,but that energy, right, like the
energy that comes from everysingle person we come into
(22:21):
contact with, it's not just like, oh, this is the situation
that's happening.
There's so much more that'shappening that we carry with us.
This is the situation that'shappening.
There's so much more that'shappening that we carry with us.
And we don't realize that whensomebody puts their trauma on us
, we pull that in, right, wecarry that, and we have to do
different things to release thatfrom ourselves, right?
(22:44):
And I don't think people fullyrealize, you know, and so
instead they're like, okay, I'mgoing to get off work, I'm going
to go party, and then I'm goingto get three hours of sleep,
and you know, rinse and repeatand it's you're never fully
releasing all of everything thatyou took on that day and doing
what's right, cause when we havea traumatic event happen, so
(23:06):
exactly what you were justtalking about you are trained to
deal with those types ofsituations, but you're still a
human being so when you seesomething like that happen, that
is now stored inside of you asan experience that was really
difficult.
You will carry that with you.
You know, and that's one of many, many, many of those right.
(23:27):
So you know, we just can't justbecause it's another Tuesday,
we joke about this, because I'ma clinical supervisor and so I
have supervisees under me and wejoke about, you know, the
provider joking.
You know, when we work in hardsituations we always kind of
have a dark sense of humor.
But the joke is that I meanthey all work in very like.
(23:47):
One of them works in like theworst, worst, worst, like parts
of CPS.
Another one works in like thepsychiatric ICU at another place
, and so we'll always sayanything interesting happened
this week and everybody's likeno no, no, and I'm like that's
hilarious right, because ofcourse, everything that we do is
interesting, but to us it'sjust another Tuesday, so I'm
(24:09):
sure you saw crazy wacky stuffall week, but it's just like
we're so used to it, right.
But that doesn't mean that wedon't carry it just because
we're like, oh of course thatthing just happened.
We're just good at putting itin the backpack and carry it
along, Exactly, but then itcauses its own issues when you
don't deal with that stuff.
(24:30):
So yeah, and we are in acollective trauma, I think like
a collective.
You know, we've had generationsand generations of a lot of
things happening and nobodyreally knows what to do with it.
So I think that's where we'rekind of at as a society.
Kelli White (24:44):
I like to tell patients that you know they
talking about that.
You know, nothing happened thisweek.
It was, you know, just anotherTuesday.
We, as providers, make that ournormal.
You know, nothing happened thisweek.
It was, you know, just anotherTuesday.
We, as providers, make that ournormal.
You know, just like we say that.
You know, like you were sayingearlier, I'm going to get, I'm
going to go party, have a fewdrinks, three hours of sleep,
rinse and repeat.
That's their normal.
Well, that doesn't mean thatit's okay.
(25:06):
You know, like you, this may beyour normal and this may be
what you do, but that doesn'tmean that that's OK.
It doesn't mean that it'ssustainable, it doesn't mean
that it's something that's goingto get you through long term
and it may last two, three, fouryears before you're burnt out,
as opposed to a 20, 30, 40 yearcareer before you're ready to
(25:26):
retire.
And I think that's what is so.
Concerning to me is that wehave this I can't even say
generation, because it'saffecting multiple generations
but we have this group ofpeoples that are in a bubble
that cannot sustain and theyhave not been able to get out of
(25:47):
their bubble to look towardsretirement, like they're just
flipping over, flipping over,flipping over, going from one to
the next, to the next, becausewhat they're doing is not
sustainable.
So they're doing this for twoor three years, flipping over,
doing this, for two or threeyears, flipping over doing this,
and they can't seem to find anynormalcy.
And so we have this country ofillness and fatigue and chronic
(26:14):
symptoms and chronic diseasesbecause of this snowball effect
that began you know who knowshow long ago, but was certainly
exacerbated by COVID.
I think COVID just turned thelight on, you know, I think that
these things were happening,but when COVID showed up on the
scene it was like the lightswent on, and so now we can see
what's happening and it justbecame exacerbated by that.
(26:36):
And so I think that that's thebiggest issue that I see,
especially among some of mypatients, is that they just
can't create a sustainablelifestyle, and you know, I try
to let them know that they needto be able to do things like you
know Melissa was saying earlierwhere they have to be able to
release and they have to be ableto find ways to do this.
(26:56):
And as soon as and I don't knowif Nicole has noticed this or
not, but as soon as you mention,you know, talking to a
therapist or going to therapy orgoing to counseling, or as soon
as you mentioned those words,it's like, oh, I don't need to
talk to anybody.
I'm like, yeah, I go to the gym, I'm good.
I'm like, no, that's not.
You know what I mean.
Like the gym doesn't teach youways to.
You know, do EMDR?
(27:18):
The gym doesn't teach you waysto do.
You know what I mean.
Like those, it's very difficult.
So what would you suggest, as amental health provider, to
providers like us?
How would you suggest weapproach those issues with our
patients to get them tounderstand and be willing to
reach out to someone likeyourself?
Melissa (27:43):
Man, like isn't that the question, and I just want to
say I do not think that therapyis the end all, be all of
anything.
You know, I think people canvery much heal in spaces that
aren't their therapy right.
However, I think where we're at, and the reason why people are
seeking out so much therapy now,is because people do not have a
(28:04):
a truly judgment free spacethat's unbiased, where they can
unload.
It does not matter who you havein your life and you think, oh,
I could just tell them anything.
We have a filter.
We filter with everyone, basedupon who we are, who is in front
of us, and you know the thingswe're like.
(28:25):
Oh, you know, we may not evenrealize we're doing it.
I think the best thing is likeif you have a good therapist.
I mean, you know, just like inany profession, not everybody is
you know, the best, and I hearthose stories too, but there are
a lot of good therapists outthere and it should be a
completely unbiased space foryou to be able to unload, and
(28:48):
that's number one, right, andthat's not really therapy,
because therapy are thesemodalities of helping you work
through things, but it is.
That's the base, right, andthat is a beautiful thing to
have.
Everyone really needs that tobe to really be able to explore
your authenticity, your ownvalues, as opposed to what's
(29:10):
being put on you.
You know it's, it's not.
I don't know.
I think people have a different, different ideas on what
therapy is, but it really can'tjust be a space of exploration,
you know, getting to know whoyou actually are and and what
this means for you.
What does all of this mean foryou?
How are you going to navigateit?
How do you release these things?
You know so, um, I thinksometimes people think it's um,
(29:34):
a lot of stuff that it reallyisn't Um, and so how do you
convince people to do it?
Um, I don't know the answer tothat, because the truth is it's,
it's a value system, just likeanything else.
I mean, some people are justlike we don't do that.
That's in my culture.
(29:54):
That's not what we do.
You know, my parents are, youknow, have never been a fan of
mental health care.
Oh, that's all BS, right.
You're going to have thosepeople and then you're going to
have the people who are like Igo to therapy religiously every
(30:15):
week.
You know, it's like like it's aspectrum and but I do think I
just try and make it very.
You know, if I'm talking topeople about therapy is like
taking it off of that, like oh,it's this very formal place
where you're like have to talkabout everything bad in the
world.
The cool thing about traumatherapy, emdr, art, even parts
work and stuff like that youdon't even really have to get
into the deep, dark story ofwhat happened to heal from it.
(30:35):
And I think that's the otherthing.
I don't want to talk about,that stuff.
Well, you can heal from itwithout even having to speak the
story, right?
So you know, I think it's justhelping people.
See, it's not probably what youthink it is.
Nicole Baldwin (30:50):
It's not probably what you think it is.
Yeah, that's awesome.
So I really like thatexplanation of it's not really
what you think it is and itreally can be anything that you
want.
So, how can?
Are you accepting new patients?
How can they find you?
Melissa (31:11):
If some of our viewers want to catch you how, where
that kind of thing.
So, as I said, I'm moving tofully virtual at the end of this
year, so I do have.
So I currently have a wait list, but things change constantly.
You know, people are moving inand out pretty regularly, but so
(31:32):
I'm kind of on multipleplatforms but there's just
places to find resources anyway.
So this is kind of helpfulanyway.
But so there's Alma.
Alma is actually.
I work with them and they dobilling for insurance, but
they're also a really goodresource to find providers,
whether it is therapists orthere's a lot of like nurse
(31:54):
practitioners and physicianassistants who do like
psychiatric medications on therethat you can find as well.
So that's kind of a goodplatform.
Psychology Today is another onewhere you can find different
providers.
Same kind of gist it's.
I always call it.
It's like the um dating apps fortherapists and you're gonna
(32:14):
swipe right if you don't wantthat therapist, but it really is
a list of all these differenttherapists that they kind of
talk about what they do, so I'mon there, and then I have a
website and my practice iscalled feel the rain
therapeutics, um, and so that mywebsite is.
My info is on there as well.
But um, yeah, um, yeah, there's.
You know, it's interesting,cause I know there's a ton of
(32:36):
therapists out there, but I alsohear that it's hard to find a
therapist.
So I think it, you know.
Oh, another good resource,though, and I just want to share
this because it's like asliding scale therapist um
resource, and this is reallygood because they have a lot of
like people working on theirclinical hours.
So these would be like licensedmaster social workers who are
(32:58):
working with a supervisor, andthere's like LPC associates
which are also working on that.
So their sessions are $30 asession, which is really
accessible, and they havesomeone supervising them all the
time.
And then there's also othertherapists and they will charge
anywhere from 40 to 70 a session, and it's called open path
(33:18):
collective, and I use them as areferral source all the time.
I I have a profile on there butall those spots are full right
now.
But, um, a lot of therapistswill use that to you know, just
kind of as a giving back andtrying to, you know, just have
those spots open for you knowthat lower amount, and so that's
(33:38):
really helpful.
So, if y'all want to say thatagain, it's called Open Path
Collective and I think there'sjust like a.
You pay a one-time like fee, Ithink it's like $50 and that's
that makes you a member as aclient, and then you just find
your therapist and then y'allagree on an amount, um, whether
it's like $40 or whatever, asession and um, that one filled
(34:00):
up for me very quickly.
Um, but it's a great resource,because this stuff you know like
it's expensive, and so you tobe able to find providers for a
less amount is good, so yeah,Well, thank you very much for
joining us.
Nicole Baldwin (34:16):
We definitely appreciate your time and if you,
Kelli and I, you, you guys knowyou've seen us.
You can find me athamiltontelehealth.
com and you can find Kelli.
Kelli White (34:29):
You can find me at Chari Health.
com and then, of course, if youneed absolutely anything at all,
you can reach out to Melissa atFeel the Rain Therapeutics, and
even if she cannot get you in,she has given you some amazing
resources to find some otherproviders.
But we hope everyone is safeand we hope that you at least
(34:49):
take away the fact thatself-care is not selfish.
Please take time for yourself.
Please take time to reach outand find someone who can meet
you where you are and help takecare of those issues for you all
right, guys, see you next timethank you.
All right, welcome back everybody.
This is another episode ofTattoos and Telehealth and today
we are going to chit chat alittle bit about something that
has been kind of near and dearto my heart, especially just
because it affected mepersonally.
But before we get started Ijust want to say because our
lawyers make us do this thatthis is not medical advice by
(00:37):
any means and that this videoand anything we discuss here
does not constitute a patientprovider relationship.
But this morning I want tointroduce a dear friend of mine
who I met professionally andthen became friends with, and
that is Melissa, and she has herown telemedicine slash,
in-person kind of hybridcounseling therapy type.
(01:00):
I'm going to let her get intothat a little bit more, but we
are going to chat about the veryawful, very real situation of
provider burnout, especiallywhen it comes to nurses,
healthcare providers, and whythat looks so aggressive I guess
would be the best way to sayright now Whereas you know that
(01:23):
was something, nicole, I thinkthat in our generation that we
saw nurses, you know, in theirforties, fifties, getting ready
for retirement, but I mean now,and I think Melissa would agree,
she was even seeing brand newnurses and healthcare providers
burning out very quickly.
So, Melissa, what do you feellike is something that you're
seeing as like a common themewith health care providers?
Melissa (01:51):
Well, it's interesting because I, you know, prior to
private practice, I was workingin ERs and psychiatry or our
psych ER and then the regular ERbecause we would kind of
consult on those cases our psychER and then the regular ER
because we would kind of consulton those cases.
And I think that's where youknow it was, during COVID, like
(02:12):
right on the cusp of COVID intowhatever we're in right now, and
I think that so what washappening in that provider
situation was a lot of.
So there were a lot of nursesthat were travel nurses and
stuff happening in the ER.
So a lot of the older nurseswho had been there for a long
time and had that tenure wereleaving because they were
(02:36):
working with a lot of people whowere, you know, just coming in
and out and the homelesspopulation just kind of blew up
at that time and the resourcesaren't there, and so when you
kind of put all of that stufftogether, what I was seeing was
a lot of we need more resources,we need more tools and we don't
(02:57):
have them, and so in that, andthat was just in that role,
right, and then I move intoprivate practice, so now I'm
seeing providers in therapy, soI have all kinds of different
clients from every walk of life,but I do see a lot of providers
a lot of other therapists, alot of nurses, doctors,
professors, and what'sinteresting is, I think we're
(03:21):
just all trying to keep theballoons in the air and no one
really knows how to.
Kelli White (03:28):
Tell us a little about your practice, like what
is, what is your practice?
What do you do?
Melissa (03:33):
So at this point right now.
So I have, like you said, ahybrid, but I'm about to move
into fully virtual at the end ofthe year.
It just makes more sense atthis point and a lot of people
are wanting it.
I do have a lot of clients whoreally appreciate that in person
, but there's just so manypeople who are wanting virtual
as well, so it's tough.
(03:53):
It's a tough decision, but somy practice is I offer trauma
therapy.
So I do a lot of the traumamodalities with people.
That's kind of my niche and hasbeen for a really long time,
and I've always worked with avery acute population.
That's just always what I'vedone as well, and so I really
love that.
(04:13):
I love working with people whoare really kind of rough around
the edges.
I work with psychedelics.
I did I'm probably going tomove out of that a little bit,
as you know, as shifting moreinto just really focusing on
some of these things like EMDR,accelerated resolution therapy,
those types of things.
So we'll see where that roadgoes, but done a lot with that.
(04:36):
And yeah, I think at this pointmost of the people I'm seeing
are just it's a lot of the samestory over and over and over.
Right, we have our trauma from,or adversity or things that
we've experienced in our life.
But now it's like last week.
Right Was hard for everybody.
It doesn't matter where youstand on the political spectrum
(04:58):
everyone's rooted in fear ofsome sort right?
So it's just we're all feelingthe heaviness of the fears of
you know these things based onour values, what we're seeing,
the all of the informationcoming at us.
Do I have the tools to managethat?
I don't know.
Right, I have people working inuniversities who feel like you
(05:20):
know that politics can shiftthat, or who's in office can
shift their job and like whatthat's going to look like long
term.
Or, you know, it's likeeverybody has feels like so much
is riding on everything that'sgoing on.
So it's just fear, I think.
I think, if you just break itall down, everyone's in fear.
Nicole Baldwin (05:41):
I think a lot of reactions, just in general with
the human population is drivenby fear, even if it's even if it
comes out as anger, comes outas anxiety or or or depression.
I think a lot, of, a lot of itjust boils down to fear because
there's so much of the unknown,like you said, not just this
week, but just in general.
You know, especially with COVID, you know with just it's just
the way things are going.
I know it was hard for Kelliand I as well to go virtual Um,
(06:05):
but the need is so much there.
So do you provide care topatients in Texas?
Melissa (06:11):
Yeah, I may.
So we are planning to move outof state in a few years and
we're looking at Arkansas andI'll probably get licensed in
Arkansas.
However, I think we're about tohave a pact you know similar, I
don't know.
Do you guys have like a pactthing where you can operate in
other states?
Kelli White (06:28):
So not as nurse practitioners we have to apply
individually.
As nurse practitioners, our RNlicense is compact to several
other states, but as nursepractitioners we have to apply
individually, so that's kind ofawesome.
Right now they haven't passedany legislation to make that
compact, which I feel likethat's coming.
I don't know that it'll happenduring our working generation.
(06:49):
I think that states need thatmoney still, and so I think that
that's something thatlegislation may not catch up
with while we're stillpracticing, but I think it
probably will.
Melissa (07:00):
Okay, yeah, so my license is as a clinical social
worker, so as therapists.
There are a few differentroutes.
You get that going for us,which it's looking like maybe
within the next couple of years,and so I think right now
there's like 13 states on it andso states can kind of join as
(07:22):
they go.
So I don't know how many willbe on that, but then we should
(07:42):
be able to operate within all ofthose.
It's kind of interestingbecause one of the billing
companies I use they will basedupon, so like, for instance, I
can see people in Massachusettsfor this one insurance because
they lack providers.
So I think little stuff likethat is happening as well.
You know, people are startingto get creative in these like
moments of like okay, we have noresources, how can we like work
within this framework to makethings?
Nicole Baldwin (08:04):
happen.
Same during COVID we could workacross across 99% of the States
as a nurse practitioner duringthis emergency order.
Now our RN license, which youhave to have an RN to have an NP
, so why we have to keep bothlicenses, I don't know.
But our RN license is like thatthere's States that have joined
it and there's some thathaven't, but most States have
(08:27):
joined it and so you only haveto have one.
You have to have like a compact.
So it's very, very similar tothat where States can kind of
join and every year or two morejoin.
So I'm glad to see that becausedefinitely in your expertise
there is such a demand, there issuch a demand for your type of
service counseling, the therapy,the just all of it, the social
(08:49):
work in general.
So I'm really glad to hear thatFor sure.
Yeah.
Melissa (08:53):
Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, we often talk
about, like, the negatives ofCOVID and a lot of negative
things would happen, and we'restill feeling that, but a lot of
really innovative things happento you.
I mean, the fact that we'resitting here right now is an
innovation that who knows wouldhave happened if, like you know,
covid didn't happen, eventhough we were probably moving
(09:13):
in this direction.
It was like no, we got to do ittoday.
And so now it's just the norm,right.
Like when this first started Iwas so uncomfortable being on
video with.
I was like, oh, this is soimpersonal, like it just
especially with therapy.
I was like, oh, I just don'tthink I could ever do that.
But you start to get used to itand it's like wait a second,
you can have as profound ofsessions virtually and, as a
(09:36):
matter of fact, this person cansit in the comfort of their home
, you know, with their dog andtheir blanket, and you have a
good session, you know, asopposed to them driving 30
minutes to the office and stuff.
So you know, it's not as bad asI originally thought.
So it's been really interestingactually.
Kelli White (09:57):
Yeah for sure.
Um, so what do you feel like?
I know we kind of got off tracka little bit, but what do you
feel like has become such adrive for the rate of burnout
that we're seeing now, or do youfeel like that is still a big
deal?
Melissa (10:17):
Burnout.
It's funny because I alwayshave to try and zoom out,
because if you ask me,everybody's burned out, right,
but that's everybody I see,because I spend all of my days
with people who come to me andput all of their stuff that
doesn't feel great down on thetable, right.
(10:38):
So if you ask me, everybody'sdepressed and everybody's burned
out, and everybody has trauma,but that's my whole world.
So it's hard.
I have to like really zoom outand I'm like, okay, not
everybody feels this way, right,um, but you know, when you,
when you kind of live in thatbubble, um, you, you just that's
, you think that that's what'sgoing on everywhere.
(11:00):
But, um, I do, I do see it alot.
I feel like, and I kept sayingthis so we just recently went to
the Midwest and everyone was sokind.
We were in Ohio, it was, Idon't know.
It was so weird.
Everywhere we went, even justlike gas station, everyone was
just so genuinely kind.
And maybe it was a fluke, Idon't know, but I was thinking.
(11:20):
So I live in the DFW area and Iwas like, you know, it just
seems so aggressive here now.
You know it didn't used to belike this and I feel like that's
part of it is like because theheaviness of what's going on
everywhere, you add, like thecost of living goes up, you
(11:46):
can't afford groceries, you haveto work multiple jobs.
I have multiple clients whohave to live with multiple
roommates in order just to liveas in their thirties.
You know, like people aren't,they don't feel like they have
the stability anymore and, Ithink, added on top of that,
there's a lot more aggressivebehavior, even if you're not
(12:06):
seeing it out and about, becauseyou're online all the time.
Everyone's aggressive online,so you start to be in that
bubble of like everyone'saggressive.
I hate my job.
I have to work three of them, Ihave to live with these people
that.
I wish I kind of had my ownspace.
I can't.
I have no one that I can reallytalk to because now my family's
polarized because we havedifferent political views.
(12:27):
You know, it's like there'snowhere to turn.
That feels safe or good anymore, I think, and a lot even so,
there's still a lot of peoplewho aren't getting out into
nature anymore and things likethat.
That was one thing I saw duringCOVID, which was really awesome
too.
Nicole Baldwin (12:41):
Anytime, I went on the trail there were like
hundreds of people and I waslike, yes, bikes were on a
shortage.
Bikes were on a shortage, likeit was great.
Melissa (12:51):
Yeah, it was awesome to see and I I was hoping it would
sustain, but it it hasn't.
But you know, anyway, I justthink that I think it's that
immense pressure.
It's like a pressure cooker andpeople feel like they can't get
out of it.
And you can, you just have towork for it a little bit.
But I think it's just the.
You know, it's that um, I don'tknow if you've ever had a job
(13:13):
where you like go in and you'relike gung-ho, really excited,
but then you feel the vibeeverybody's burned out and it
just sucks you right in and Ithink that's kind of where a lot
of people are.
Kelli White (13:26):
So do you think that that has contributed to the
younger population of providerscoming out of school rapidly
burning out, like faster thanwhat we would expect, because
they're responding to theenvironment that they're in?
Melissa (13:44):
Yes, so it's weird because I so I'm on a lot of
therapist pages, like Facebookpages, because I like to see
what other people are talkingabout.
You're kind of on an island asa therapist, because even if you
work in a group practice andyou probably experience this as
(14:05):
well I mean you probably workcloser with providers when
you're in person, but we don'twork with somebody else.
You know we're in sessions allday and you may have two minutes
where you're going to thebathroom, so you, there's not a
lot of time where you're talkingand getting to.
You know, just do that chitchat, Right?
So I like get on these pagesand it is actually incredible
(14:27):
the amount of burnout thattherapists talk about and I
think sometimes it's working forlike agencies, like community
mental health, where you haveway too many patients at a time
and you're making no money andthat it's just hard because you
so in a therapy session, you'rein it for an hour, right, you
are, 100% of your soul is online, right, Like I am holding that
(14:53):
space and every word that thisperson is saying I am taking in.
Right, I am hearing, I amconceptualizing like which, you
know, what can we do here?
How can we work with this thing.
Like you, you, 100% of yourself, is there, right, and you're
doing that for, you know, six,seven, eight, 12 hours, right.
(15:13):
So in community mental health,you have people coming in who
are homeless, you know, havesevere drug issues, have no
family, you have limitedresources.
You're trying to hold all ofthat space for all of these
people and you're doing it at agrand scale and then they're
just putting more cases, morecases, more cases.
So I see that that's reallyhard.
You can't sustain that.
(15:34):
It's.
That is unsustainable.
You know there's not enough ofme to put into that space, Right
.
So that's, I think that causesburnout.
And then, but in privatepractice, I think it's weird I'm
seeing this so much workingwith insurance companies, people
that burns people out.
There's again, I think that'sbased in fear, fear of these
(15:56):
clawbacks of, like you know,like coming after you and
telling you you're not doingwhat you're supposed to be doing
, things like that.
I think just the heavinessthat's brought to the table is
hard to maintain long term, thetension of everything, the angst
.
Nicole Baldwin (16:15):
just you're constantly on the edge of
everything all the time, likeyou were talking about going
into work in a good mood, butyou're.
You also read the room rightand the tension you can cut.
You know just everybody's angst.
And it may be individually,everybody has their own story
right and everybody has theirown things that they're dealing
(16:36):
with.
So even if you're into asituation where everybody is
just in their in their own head,trying to deal with their own
life, then trying to take careof other people around them as
well, or you could have, youknow, everyone you know working
on that Maybe, maybe it's a it'sa company issue and so
everybody's having the sameissue, and then that also, can
(16:58):
you know, can cause angst justin.
I think just there's tensioneverywhere.
Like you said, you go to someplaces and they're really nice
and I can tell you like I seepatients nationwide, but my
specifically I'm not sayingother States are rude, so I'm
not, I'm not saying that myArkansas, north Carolina, south
Carolina and Tennessee patientsare awesome, like they are
(17:22):
always pleasant.
Kelli White (17:24):
Always, always.
Nicole Baldwin (17:25):
That doesn't mean everybody else is rude, I'm
not saying that.
But if I get somebody andthey're like super nice and
sweet, and just genuine and justa now.
I see people at their worst.
So does Kelli, so do you like?
We all see people at theirworst, but when people can still
not feel well and present toyou in just this best pleasant
(17:51):
that they can, at that momentLike it's, it's a breath of
fresh air.
And I always look and I say, oh, I bet you're from Arkansas,
Like I always look to see whatstate they're from, because I a
lot of times it's Arkansas,North Carolina, South Carolina,
Tennessee.
Melissa (18:04):
Yeah, it's fascinating that there's like a morale, just
like in a job right In a state.
It's pretty fascinating howthat works.
Yeah, I think that what isreally interesting is we also
have our stuff right and we haveto put that on the back burner
(18:27):
too, and I think that's theother thing people struggle with
.
You know, we've been doing thisfor so long I've been in this
field for so long.
It's very easy for me to likecompartmentalize that stuff and
like, okay, like my stuff is mystuff, whatever, not a big deal.
But I do think that that's hardfor people, especially right
now because, like you're talkingabout all that tension, for
some people that is not so easyto do.
(18:51):
And honestly I'm not saying it'sa good thing that we can do
that.
Honestly, I see a lot ofproviders nurses you know
different providers who that'swhy they're coming to therapy is
because they've been puttingtheir own stuff on the back
burner for too long Right.
And pushing that down and allthe trauma they've been through
like nurses, especially in likeICU type situations.
(19:11):
I mean that's very traumaticjob.
So I'm not saying it'snecessarily a good thing.
But you think about thatdynamic difference, like as a
therapist, as working full time.
It is a one sided relationship.
I am showing up, I am providingthat space for all of these
people to unload.
Now, what if I didn't have aplace where I could like be
(19:34):
authentically myself and be ableto say that, cause, that's not
what's happening with my clients, right?
That's a one-sided relationship.
So they get to unload andunpack and I'm holding all of
that.
If I don't do anything with that, well then I'm gonna burn out
right and I don't think thatpeople are doing the self-care
(19:55):
that they need to do.
You know, we're all guilty ofit providers aren't.
Nicole Baldwin (20:00):
I'm not no, I mean, we're just not.
We're, we're just not, they'reso and I think it just comes
with like being healthcareproviders in general, just like
you know, the three of us, likewe didn't come into this field
because we want to.
You know we're selfish and wantto care about you know ourself,
we want to put other peoplefirst, and so that kind of comes
(20:22):
with our territory.
But it comes at such a I don'tknow like, the more you do it,
the more you're aware of it, butyou know, obviously, the more
burnt out you get.
But I think that it is just atsuch a high scale that right now
, health care in the nationthere's such a shortage,
specifically in mental health,but even in just primary care
(20:44):
there's an, in just care ingeneral there's a shortage.
Care there's an inch and justcare in general there's a
shortage.
And so you know, I can see Xamount of patients, but there's
so many more that need help.
And at the same time I feeldefeated because I can't.
Maybe I can only see, I'm justmaking a random number, but
maybe I, maybe I can only see,you know, 15 patients a day and
(21:04):
I can't.
I want to see 20, but I can'tbecause that affects my quality
of care.
But then so I feel like, yes,I've helped 15 people, but I
still carry with me the othersthat I weren't, that I couldn't
help you know like.
Kelli and I both come from ICUtrauma trauma world.
We save a lot of lives andthat's something we should
celebrate.
Kelli White (21:22):
We have saved hundreds, I'm sure, but at the
same time, there's those onesthat we lose that really take a
toll on us.
Nicole Baldwin (21:31):
So, even though we've saved, you know, 100
people, you know that child orthat young person or that I mean
even the elderly as well.
It's a little bit rougher forme to see trauma with children
and young and young adults whodidn't have that life to live.
But you can save as many as asmany.
(21:52):
You can save a million, but ifyou have a couple that you
struggle with, you're stillgoing to struggle.
So it's, I think, that, as peryou, carry that.
Melissa (22:01):
We carry that with us forever, you know, and I don't
think that people really realizebecause, you know, and I'm sure
you know, me and Kelli havetalked about this in the past,
but as I don't know how much,but that energy, right, like the
energy that comes from everysingle person we come into
(22:21):
contact with, it's not just like, oh, this is the situation
that's happening.
There's so much more that'shappening that we carry with us.
This is the situation that'shappening.
There's so much more that'shappening that we carry with us.
And we don't realize that whensomebody puts their trauma on us
, we pull that in, right, wecarry that, and we have to do
different things to release thatfrom ourselves, right?
(22:44):
And I don't think people fullyrealize, you know, and so
instead they're like, okay, I'mgoing to get off work, I'm going
to go party, and then I'm goingto get three hours of sleep,
and you know, rinse and repeatand it's you're never fully
releasing all of everything thatyou took on that day and doing
what's right, cause when we havea traumatic event happen, so
(23:06):
exactly what you were justtalking about you are trained to
deal with those types ofsituations, but you're still a
human being so when you seesomething like that happen, that
is now stored inside of you asan experience that was really
difficult.
You will carry that with you.
You know, and that's one of many, many, many of those right.
(23:27):
So you know, we just can't justbecause it's another Tuesday,
we joke about this, because I'ma clinical supervisor and so I
have supervisees under me and wejoke about, you know, the
provider joking.
You know, when we work in hardsituations we always kind of
have a dark sense of humor.
But the joke is that I meanthey all work in very like.
(23:47):
One of them works in like theworst, worst, worst, like parts
of CPS.
Another one works in like thepsychiatric ICU at another place
, and so we'll always sayanything interesting happened
this week and everybody's likeno no, no, and I'm like that's
hilarious right, because ofcourse, everything that we do is
interesting, but to us it'sjust another Tuesday, so I'm
(24:09):
sure you saw crazy wacky stuffall week, but it's just like
we're so used to it, right.
But that doesn't mean that wedon't carry it just because
we're like, oh of course thatthing just happened.
We're just good at putting itin the backpack and carry it
along, Exactly, but then itcauses its own issues when you
don't deal with that stuff.
(24:30):
So yeah, and we are in acollective trauma, I think like
a collective.
You know, we've had generationsand generations of a lot of
things happening and nobodyreally knows what to do with it.
So I think that's where we'rekind of at as a society.
Kelli White (24:44):
I like to tell patients that you know they
talking about that.
You know, nothing happened thisweek.
It was, you know, just anotherTuesday.
We, as providers, make that ournormal.
You know, nothing happened thisweek.
It was, you know, just anotherTuesday.
We, as providers, make that ournormal.
You know, just like we say that.
You know, like you were sayingearlier, I'm going to get, I'm
going to go party, have a fewdrinks, three hours of sleep,
rinse and repeat.
That's their normal.
Well, that doesn't mean thatit's okay.
(25:06):
You know, like you, this may beyour normal and this may be
what you do, but that doesn'tmean that that's OK.
It doesn't mean that it'ssustainable, it doesn't mean
that it's something that's goingto get you through long term
and it may last two, three, fouryears before you're burnt out,
as opposed to a 20, 30, 40 yearcareer before you're ready to
(25:26):
retire.
And I think that's what is so.
Concerning to me is that wehave this I can't even say
generation, because it'saffecting multiple generations
but we have this group ofpeoples that are in a bubble
that cannot sustain and theyhave not been able to get out of
(25:47):
their bubble to look towardsretirement, like they're just
flipping over, flipping over,flipping over, going from one to
the next, to the next, becausewhat they're doing is not
sustainable.
So they're doing this for twoor three years, flipping over,
doing this, for two or threeyears, flipping over doing this,
and they can't seem to find anynormalcy.
And so we have this country ofillness and fatigue and chronic
(26:14):
symptoms and chronic diseasesbecause of this snowball effect
that began you know who knowshow long ago, but was certainly
exacerbated by COVID.
I think COVID just turned thelight on, you know, I think that
these things were happening,but when COVID showed up on the
scene it was like the lightswent on, and so now we can see
what's happening and it justbecame exacerbated by that.
(26:36):
And so I think that that's thebiggest issue that I see,
especially among some of mypatients, is that they just
can't create a sustainablelifestyle, and you know, I try
to let them know that they needto be able to do things like you
know Melissa was saying earlierwhere they have to be able to
release and they have to be ableto find ways to do this.
(26:56):
And as soon as and I don't knowif Nicole has noticed this or
not, but as soon as you mention,you know, talking to a
therapist or going to therapy orgoing to counseling, or as soon
as you mentioned those words,it's like, oh, I don't need to
talk to anybody.
I'm like, yeah, I go to the gym, I'm good.
I'm like, no, that's not.
You know what I mean.
Like the gym doesn't teach youways to.
You know, do EMDR?
(27:18):
The gym doesn't teach you waysto do.
You know what I mean.
Like those, it's very difficult.
So what would you suggest, as amental health provider, to
providers like us?
How would you suggest weapproach those issues with our
patients to get them tounderstand and be willing to
reach out to someone likeyourself?
Melissa (27:43):
Man, like isn't that the question, and I just want to
say I do not think that therapyis the end all, be all of
anything.
You know, I think people canvery much heal in spaces that
aren't their therapy right.
However, I think where we're at, and the reason why people are
seeking out so much therapy now,is because people do not have a
(28:04):
a truly judgment free spacethat's unbiased, where they can
unload.
It does not matter who you havein your life and you think, oh,
I could just tell them anything.
We have a filter.
We filter with everyone, basedupon who we are, who is in front
of us, and you know the thingswe're like.
(28:25):
Oh, you know, we may not evenrealize we're doing it.
I think the best thing is likeif you have a good therapist.
I mean, you know, just like inany profession, not everybody is
you know, the best, and I hearthose stories too, but there are
a lot of good therapists outthere and it should be a
completely unbiased space foryou to be able to unload, and
(28:48):
that's number one, right, andthat's not really therapy,
because therapy are thesemodalities of helping you work
through things, but it is.
That's the base, right, andthat is a beautiful thing to
have.
Everyone really needs that tobe to really be able to explore
your authenticity, your ownvalues, as opposed to what's
(29:10):
being put on you.
You know it's, it's not.
I don't know.
I think people have a different, different ideas on what
therapy is, but it really can'tjust be a space of exploration,
you know, getting to know whoyou actually are and and what
this means for you.
What does all of this mean foryou?
How are you going to navigateit?
How do you release these things?
You know so, um, I thinksometimes people think it's um,
(29:34):
a lot of stuff that it reallyisn't Um, and so how do you
convince people to do it?
Um, I don't know the answer tothat, because the truth is it's,
it's a value system, just likeanything else.
I mean, some people are justlike we don't do that.
That's in my culture.
(29:54):
That's not what we do.
You know, my parents are, youknow, have never been a fan of
mental health care.
Oh, that's all BS, right.
You're going to have thosepeople and then you're going to
have the people who are like Igo to therapy religiously every
(30:15):
week.
You know, it's like like it's aspectrum and but I do think I
just try and make it very.
You know, if I'm talking topeople about therapy is like
taking it off of that, like oh,it's this very formal place
where you're like have to talkabout everything bad in the
world.
The cool thing about traumatherapy, emdr, art, even parts
work and stuff like that youdon't even really have to get
into the deep, dark story ofwhat happened to heal from it.
(30:35):
And I think that's the otherthing.
I don't want to talk about,that stuff.
Well, you can heal from itwithout even having to speak the
story, right?
So you know, I think it's justhelping people.
See, it's not probably what youthink it is.
Nicole Baldwin (30:50):
It's not probably what you think it is.
Yeah, that's awesome.
So I really like thatexplanation of it's not really
what you think it is and itreally can be anything that you
want.
So, how can?
Are you accepting new patients?
How can they find you?
Melissa (31:11):
If some of our viewers want to catch you how, where
that kind of thing.
So, as I said, I'm moving tofully virtual at the end of this
year, so I do have.
So I currently have a wait list, but things change constantly.
You know, people are moving inand out pretty regularly, but so
(31:32):
I'm kind of on multipleplatforms but there's just
places to find resources anyway.
So this is kind of helpfulanyway.
But so there's Alma.
Alma is actually.
I work with them and they dobilling for insurance, but
they're also a really goodresource to find providers,
whether it is therapists orthere's a lot of like nurse
(31:54):
practitioners and physicianassistants who do like
psychiatric medications on therethat you can find as well.
So that's kind of a goodplatform.
Psychology Today is another onewhere you can find different
providers.
Same kind of gist it's.
I always call it.
It's like the um dating apps fortherapists and you're gonna
(32:14):
swipe right if you don't wantthat therapist, but it really is
a list of all these differenttherapists that they kind of
talk about what they do, so I'mon there, and then I have a
website and my practice iscalled feel the rain
therapeutics, um, and so that mywebsite is.
My info is on there as well.
But um, yeah, um, yeah, there's.
You know, it's interesting,cause I know there's a ton of
(32:36):
therapists out there, but I alsohear that it's hard to find a
therapist.
So I think it, you know.
Oh, another good resource,though, and I just want to share
this because it's like asliding scale therapist um
resource, and this is reallygood because they have a lot of
like people working on theirclinical hours.
So these would be like licensedmaster social workers who are
(32:58):
working with a supervisor, andthere's like LPC associates
which are also working on that.
So their sessions are $30 asession, which is really
accessible, and they havesomeone supervising them all the
time.
And then there's also othertherapists and they will charge
anywhere from 40 to 70 a session, and it's called open path
(33:18):
collective, and I use them as areferral source all the time.
I I have a profile on there butall those spots are full right
now.
But, um, a lot of therapistswill use that to you know, just
kind of as a giving back andtrying to, you know, just have
those spots open for you knowthat lower amount, and so that's
(33:38):
really helpful.
So, if y'all want to say thatagain, it's called Open Path
Collective and I think there'sjust like a.
You pay a one-time like fee, Ithink it's like $50 and that's
that makes you a member as aclient, and then you just find
your therapist and then y'allagree on an amount, um, whether
it's like $40 or whatever, asession and um, that one filled
(34:00):
up for me very quickly.
Um, but it's a great resource,because this stuff you know like
it's expensive, and so you tobe able to find providers for a
less amount is good, so yeah,Well, thank you very much for
joining us.
Nicole Baldwin (34:16):
We definitely appreciate your time and if you,
Kelli and I, you, you guys knowyou've seen us.
You can find me athamiltontelehealth.
com and you can find Kelli.
Kelli White (34:29):
You can find me at Chari Health.
com and then, of course, if youneed absolutely anything at all,
you can reach out to Melissa atFeel the Rain Therapeutics, and
even if she cannot get you in,she has given you some amazing
resources to find some otherproviders.
But we hope everyone is safeand we hope that you at least
(34:49):
take away the fact thatself-care is not selfish.
Please take time for yourself.
Please take time to reach outand find someone who can meet
you where you are and help takecare of those issues for you all
right, guys, see you next timethank you.
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