September 14, 2025 • 61 mins
Rosemary Campbell-Stevens, veteran educator and decolonisation advocate, shares her journey from the Investing in Diversity programme to her current work reimagining education systems worldwide through a decolonial lens.
• How the "Investing in Diversity" programme transformed leadership for global majority educators from 2003-2011
• The powerful shift from identifying as "ethnic minority" to embracing "global majority" identity
• Growing up in a "nationalistic Jamaican household" that fostered pride and global consciousness
• Why DEI initiatives often fail to create meaningful change in international schools
• The colonial roots of education systems designed to produce compliant workers rather than develop full humanity
• How parallel systems of self-determination can complement efforts to reform existing institutions
• The importance of creating education systems where no child leaves without a strong sense of self
• Current projects including decolonising corporate business models and establishing a CARICOM education commission
Contact Rosemary at rosemary@second-principle.com to learn more about her work in decolonising education systems.
Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.
Visit our website https://linktr.ee/teachmiddleeast.
Tweet us: https://twitter.com/teachmiddleeast
Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/teachmiddleeast/.
Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson
Connect with Leisa Grace:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/leisagrace
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leisagrace/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hello everyone.
This is Lisa Grace coming toyou again with another episode
of the Teach Middle East podcast, season six.
Today's episode is a little bitself-indulgent.
I have to be very upfront withmy listeners because I'm going
to be talking a lot of personalstuff, maybe from my history and
my journey in England, teachingin England as a young teacher,
(00:40):
and then I'm also going to begleaming from the knowledge of
the one, the only, rosemaryCampbell-Stevens, a veteran,
someone I look up to, someone Iadmired for years and years.
I am so happy to have you onthe podcast.
Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Thank you so much, lisa.
Listen, it's a great, greatopportunity to be able to reach
your audience, but also it islovely to reconnect with you, so
I consider this an honor, thankyou so much you know.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
All right.
So I'm going to tell the story.
Guys, I met Rosemary I'm sureshe doesn't remember poor little
old me, but here's the deal.
I was 20, I want to say 23, 24years old.
I was teaching in Enfield at alittle school called, not little
biggish school, called LeeValley High School in Enfield on
Bullsmore Lane that's howspecific it is.
(01:35):
And I once my principal rang meand she said come and see me,
you might have something youmight be interested in.
At the time I was one of twoblack teachers in the school.
I would travel up from EdmontonI you know my base is Tottenham
, so obviously I'm traveling upfrom my ends to Enfield in a
(01:56):
working class white neighborhood, bullsmore Lane, right in the
heart of it, to teach at LeeValley.
And she said to me I think youmight be interested in this
program called Investing inDiversity.
And so she said I will put youon if you say yes.
So I was like, yes, any littlething, like I'm keen, went on
(02:17):
this program.
I think I went on a retreat.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I want to say sorry, arquette, I can't remember where
we went retreat I want to saysorry or Kent I can't remember
where we went, okay, okay, sothat would be in London.
We, we used to start investingin diversity in a residential,
and that would run from Fridayevening through till Sunday
afternoon, and it was inGreenwich.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Greenwich.
It was somewhere south.
Listen, south of the rivermeans I'm out of my depth, yeah.
So I went to this thing and atthat time, like I said, I was in
my early 20s and the Lisa yousee today who is so talkative
and outgoing is a bit of afacade.
I am very, very quiet, and Iwas even quieter then.
(03:07):
So I remember I was on thisresidential and you gave us some
scenarios to do, yes, and thenwe had to do these scenarios and
then we had to do some feedbackand you were in the group
hearing the feedback and I satthere quiet as a mouse because,
one, I was out of my depth andtwo, I was just well intimidated
(03:27):
by everybody there.
And I remember you saying to mewhat do you have to say?
I guess you probably felt sorryfor me sitting in the corner
looking like I've lost.
I've lost the will, and yousaid you, what do you have to
say?
And I spoke, spoke.
And then you said to me youmake a lot of sense.
Next time don't sit with yourknowledge so quietly and not say
(03:53):
anything.
Speak up, learn to find yourvoice.
That was, like you know, aseminal moment.
It was so pivotal for mebecause it clicked in my head.
I I'm like no one will everknow what I'm capable of if I
sit in the corner.
But I think growing up I kindof had my voice beaten out of me
(04:14):
a bit, so I was always reallyquiet and so that was my turning
point.
So this is why I always say topeople when they say oh, I said
there was this lady who Iadmired forever.
Because she said that to me, Istarted to speak for myself a
little bit more each time, andthat's how it began.
(04:35):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Oh, bless, bless your heart, bless your heart.
That's such a lovely story aswell because investing in
diversity started in 2003.
And at that time I had alreadybeen working in education for 20
plus years, so you know, whenwe started, investing in
(05:03):
diversity was definitely aboutwas for us, as global majority
educators, to find our voice.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
That was where I learned the whole term global
majority.
And you saw that into usbecause I used to use the other
phrase ethnic minority, becausethat's what we grew up learning
in schools and stuff like thatethnic minority, because that's
what we grew up learning inschools and stuff like that.
So we we took that on and kindof embraced that.
But you turned that for me whenyou thought no, when you look
(05:32):
at the world, we are themajority.
How did that come about?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
okay.
So, lisa, I was invited,alongside a number of other
Black educators, to attend aconversation that was being held
at the Institute of Educationat University College London
about the state of Londonschools, and at that time, the
(05:59):
Labour administration wassetting up a huge multi-million
pound program called the LondonChallenge, and the London
Challenge was focused on raisingthe attainment of London school
children, and so part of thatbig program I think you know it
(06:22):
was probably about 80 millionback then in the day, and you
know it ran from 2003 to 2011.
A significant part of theprogram was focused on
leadership, and so I was invited, alongside a group of about 10
other black educators, todiscuss principally why it was
(06:45):
that there weren't more blackand Asian and minority ethnic
was the term then people inleadership positions in London
schools and why they were notgetting through NPQH.
But the conversation was verymuch in the deficit mode, as it
usually is around not enough ofus having the confidence, not
(07:10):
having the experience to putourselves forward, minoritizing
us, as opposed to looking at theracist, eugenicist system that
was ensuring that black andother global majority people
(07:34):
were not getting through mpqh.
There are lots of people whowanted to come on the investing
in diversity program and didn'thave the kind of head teacher
that you had and to get ontolots of programs we had to.
You know, people would contactus and say my head wouldn't bat
me on this, and there are lotsof deputies who contacted us
(07:55):
that said they were not gettingthe support that they needed to
get through NPQA and so thesystemic racism wasn't part of
the conversation and so thesystemic racism wasn't part of
the conversation.
Sadly to say, the majority ofBlack leaders sitting around
that table, locked into the kindof colonial mindset of you know
, we don't need a specialtreatment, et cetera, et cetera,
(08:17):
refused to say that we neededsomething alongside NPQH, not to
replace, but alongside NPQH.
That was not about bringing ourpeople up to speed.
Our people were up to speed,but it was about us addressing
(08:39):
the systemic racism in thesystem that was needed in order
for more of us to break through.
And how could we, as globalmajority leaders, begin to do
that?
And the first thing we neededto do was to not call ourselves
ethnic minorities, because wewere ethnic minorities in London
or on the planet.
(08:59):
And the minute you have thatshift in mindset, you have
different conversations aboutwhat you're doing.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, because it takes away that victim mentality
and it empowers you to think ofyourself as worthy.
And that's what I walked awaywith when I did that program
that sense of worthiness, that Ibelong and I should take up
space.
And when I tell you, I'm notsaying it was the only thing
that propelled me, but it wasone of the fuels in my tanker
(09:30):
that actually pushed me forward.
I saw things from a differentlens, because you have to
understand.
When you grow up aroundTottenham or you grow up around
Edmonton, what do you see of ourpeople?
And it's not that they're notcapable, it's not that they're
not smart they are but thesystem holds them in that
position and locks them in.
(09:51):
And until you see yourselfoutside of that, you can't move
forward.
And that's what happened.
Is that you know you think thesystem would try to help.
You did not, did not.
That was the only piece of Iwould call it professional
development that has ever stuckout in my mind and I've done
(10:14):
many years of professionallearning and I think one of the
reasons is that I always say topeople you cannot be what you
cannot see for me.
I saw you and I was like she'sa Jamaican woman, tall, very
sure of herself.
It was not something I had seenbefore, especially within the
(10:35):
space.
So when we used to come for thetwilight sessions at institute
of ed and I used to look aroundbecause I'm very like, I was
quieter but I was very observantand I would look around at all
the other lecturers and stuffand I was like there was
everyone and then there was youand I was like, see, this is
(10:55):
what I'm talking about.
It was such a novel not anovelty, but it was such a good
thing to see somebody who youcould look at and emulate.
And I wondered, from yourperspective, how effective do
you think that program was, thatinvesting in diversity, like?
What feedback have you gottenover the years?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Okay.
I think it was hugelyinfluential.
So for your.
3.5 million pounds was put intoinvesting in diversity.
It ran for eight years, from2003 through to 2011,.
So the full length of theLondon Challenge programme,
(11:41):
which is unusual for Black-ledinitiatives, because usually
there's a sort of a kickstart interms of funding and then they
cut it after 18 months and thenthey don't talk about the impact
.
A thousand teachers in Londonalone went through that program
(12:02):
in over the course of thoseeight years and they were all
aspiring leaders, so middleleaders upwards, a significant
number of the leaders that youwill see now in the space.
If you look in linkedin, youknow your diana asagi's, your
ann pal you're.
(12:23):
If we talk about the leader ofthe equity and social justice,
they've just set up a universitymodel Paul Miller.
There are a lot of people and alot of schools in London that
are now top in terms of studentattainment, where either people
(12:49):
were tutors on that program,like Paul Miller and Diana
Osagie they went through thatprogram, like yourself or entire
senior leadership levels incertain schools went through
that program and we are nowseeing the results in terms of
(13:10):
their academic output.
So investing in diversity was sosuccessful after just four
years.
It was a franchise, if you likewas bought by the University of
Toronto, oise, and they ran theprogram for several years and
that's where the collaborationcame in, with Professor John
(13:32):
Portelli and Dr Hervine Singh,who is now in your part of the
world.
And then we ran programs.
We developed programs Investingin Diversityors, developed
programs right across EnglandOutside of London.
We had investing in diversityleads, but when you go to
(13:52):
Yorkshire and Humber, we haddiverse leaders.
We had a program in Bristol, wehad a program in Liverpool.
Now, none of these things havebeen documented outside of what
we are doing and so investing indiversity, people are already
beginning to document some ofthat, what is now a 20-odd year
(14:14):
legacy.
So I think we've been hugelyinfluential.
And then there's the numbers ofus who have moved out onto the
global stage, and so I still dowork with people across the
continent of Africa who wereinvesting in diversity graduates
, if you like, people who areleading change across their
(14:37):
systems and, of course, out herein the Caribbean.
Some of us came back, but a lotof us went over to Africa or are
in the Middle East and acrossthe world, and really it's a
massive program that I hope thatsomebody will do the research
on in terms of its impact, toquantify it, because one of the
(15:00):
reasons that I wrote my littlebook, educational Leadership and
the Global MajorityDecolonizing Narratives, wasage
and African heritage, part ofthe global majority and land in
(15:29):
Gatwick and somehow morph intobeing a minority ethnic.
It's very, very limited thinking.
So even when people try to lookat it numerically and say, oh
well, you're not a globalmajority in Kent, well, what
does global mean?
I'm a global citizen wherever Igo.
(15:49):
So if I walk into one roomanywhere on planet, any postal
code, I'm still part of theglobal majority and what we need
to do is to tap in to thatlineage.
We are not starting fromscratch.
We have things that we have tosay and right about now, as the
systems are colliding and, youknow, just collapsing, we need
(16:12):
to widen that intellectual spaceand more of us need to find our
voice in that space.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Very much so.
What's led to this passion?
What's your background, what'syour history?
Because we see you well, I seeyou as a starring figure.
But where did it start, like?
Where did you grow up?
Where did you go to school?
What led you to education?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I'm hearing you loud and clear and I have these
conversations all the timebecause my mother will be 99 in
a couple of weeks.
Where is she?
In England?
In Newtown, in Birmingham.
She will be 99 years.
Let's start with my parents.
I was born in Handsworth inBirmingham.
(16:54):
That's where I was born, not inJamaica, handsworth, birmingham
, but in 1968, when I was bornin 1961, in 1968, my father died
.
Yes, that's why you, as alittle 23-year-old yeah, I'm 64.
Whoa.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, you've got to tell me what you eat, what you
drink, all right, what you doafter Coconut water.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Woo, also black, don't crack and live good, oh,
wow, oh, anyway.
Anyway, I grew up in a verynationalistic Jamaican household
.
My parents were of the Windrushgeneration but they never gave
me any of that claptrap aboutcoming over to England and
(17:45):
thinking that the streets werepaved with gold or that I would
have to work twice or threetimes as hard to be as good as
white people.
I never got any of that in myhousehold, none of it.
In 1968, my father died when Iwas seven years old and the last
thing that I remember himsaying to us in like you know,
(18:08):
kind of like a serious way as afamily and that was me, my
younger sister, joe, my olderbrother and sister had already
left home he wanted us to watchsomething on the TV and our TV
was a really big deal.
My parents had bought a fivebedroom, three reception room
(18:29):
house, victorian house inBirmingham that I couldn't
afford to buy.
Now that's where I grew upWorking class people but with a
different kind of mindset and myfather said to me and joe we
needed to come into the frontroom, which we were allowed to
go to the front room every nowand again to play.
(18:50):
But when it was to watch telly,it was to be watch serious
things and we needed to watch.
What was on the tv and what wewere watching was dr martin
luther king's funeral.
I didn't realize it at the time.
I thought that it was dr martinluther king I could see the
grainy black and the time Ithought that it was Dr Martin
Luther King I could see thegrainy black and white pictures
and knew that he was a black man, that he was an American and
(19:13):
that we were connected.
So the whole thing about globalmajority.
I always saw myself as a globalperson and connected to other
black people, and so I grew upin Handsworth through 1970s,
passed my 11 plus, went to thegrammar school at the time when
(19:33):
there was a color bar beingoperated in Birmingham, and so
knowing our history is really,really, really important.
Now, that could have meant mesaying, well, oh so I'm special
that I've managed to pass my 11plus and go to King Edward's
grammar school.
But no, the intervention of afabulous whitehead teacher
(19:57):
ensured, because he told mymother don't put down any of
those other schools for Rosemary, she's going to pass her 11th
class, she's going to go to kingedward.
Mom had never heard of kingedward's because by that time
her father had died, and so heguided us.
But a few years later, when myyounger sister took the same
11th class, grew up in the samehome, just as bright as me in
(20:17):
fact, joe was brighter than medidn't pass.
My mother challenged that.
And then there was some kind ofinteraction between her and the
school no, not her and theschool with the local authority
which said that year the passrate, you know that they'd
change, et cetera, et cetera.
(20:38):
It just so happened that noneof the black girls who got into
King Edward's ever had a sisteror a brother who went through to
those foundation schools.
So clearly you know 14, you'regrowing up, you're watching
Roots on the telly and this isall before your time.
But that was part of ourtransitioning and so on.
(21:02):
1980s was when I first qualifiedto teach.
Early 1980s, that's when ourcities were burning.
While I was training to be ateacher at Birmingham University
, I was also part ofPan-Africanist organizations,
and so the one Pan-Africanistorganizations and so the one
(21:23):
pan-Africanist organization thatwas a part of run sat day
schools as well as ran abuilding company and also looked
at ways that we could beself-sufficient in food.
So that's my grounding.
I couldn't be anything otherthan that, not what the family
that I grew up in, not in thespace that I grew up in, but
(21:47):
also Lisa, it's about the timebecause one of the things that I
say to myself in terms of youknow, younger generation people
like yourself and those whofollow you, the time that you
grew up in as well as the space,is very, very important.
So to be a child of the 60s,when that whole kind of world
(22:11):
revolutionary movement 68 inparticular when the father died
is a critical historical yearacross all diasporan communities
, around race and the reckoningwith race.
And then because my parents,you know, would have been born,
as I said, my mother is 99.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So you know pan-Africanist movements that
had started, marcus Garvey, allof those that they would have
been steeped in that, and sothat's what's grounded and
guided me yeah, and it's sofunny because you're talking
about how very poignant thosedays were and now I'm looking at
(22:55):
today's days and how a lot ofthe structures that were built
up to facilitate a level ofinclusivity and diversity is now
being dismantled and it makesme wonder what do you think we
should be doing in these days,because now it's like a reversal
(23:15):
.
We're going back to the 60ssomehow.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Well, you see, one of the missteps I think, perhaps
in our generation generation mygeneration and the generation
that came before is thatpan-Africanist movements were
actually about self-development,you know, being
self-determining.
(23:38):
It wasn't all about fittinginto existing systems and trying
to shift them.
It was about building our ownparallel movements and ways of
being, as well as shifting thesystem so that everybody really
could have more equity.
(23:59):
So to give you a very, veryclear example that five bedrooms
, three reception halls myfather couldn't initially get a
mortgage for it.
So what did they then pull on?
Did they start lobbying thebanks and the building society
and this that that no, no, no,no, no, no, no, then set up
(24:22):
their own way of operatingcalled partner yeah, I know what
that is exactly, and everyafrican person knows what that
is and every asian person knowswhat that is, because they have
it in their cultural frameworks.
And so part of what it is to beself-determining and part of the
(24:44):
reason that we haven't movedforward is that we haven't built
our parallel systems, theequivalent of partner in terms
of education, in terms of oureconomics, in terms of how we
manage our food, in terms of howwe manage our health, as well
as trying to decolonize thisdeeply colonial system that we
(25:09):
are now find ourselves in andhas spread its tentacles across
the world.
So it has to be parallel traps.
Lisa, yeah, I had thatconversation with one of our
colleagues on linkedin thismorning where he say, well,
these systems don't exist.
Yes, bruv, they do.
They do.
The reason that you know,partner and all of those things,
(25:32):
the reason my mother's 99 yearsold, is that she has a Jamaican
diet.
That's an African diet thatsuits her disposition.
She eats banana, she eats ackee, she eats breadfruit, she eats
all of those things.
And she also has, you know, apart-time school, chinese food
(25:52):
and Indian food.
You know, my mom is that's oneof the things that is really
been grounded in me.
My mum is that's one of thethings that is really been
grounded in me that how youground yourself physically,
spiritually, intellectually,will take you through and enable
you to actually be who you'resupposed to be and therefore do
(26:14):
what you're supposed to do atany given time.
And the only way that I canstand I'm glad you called me
tall, because I'm not well.
Yeah, to me it's like yeah, yousee who I do stand tall.
I do stand tall.
And and I think the other thingis that we don't look at legacy
enough I always go back tolegacy.
(26:37):
I always go back to theshoulders that I stood on.
So, if you remember, investingin diversity, friday night we
always start with professorgosjan.
Yes, we always start withprofessor gosjan, because he was
my mentor before mentoring wasa thing.
Yeah, so to teach the nextgeneration that I'm not the
(27:00):
poorest one talking about thesethings, here are the elders.
Let them tell you how thatpeople used to organize, how, at
that same institute where weused to sit in those sessions in
those evenings during the week.
That's where Bernard Cowardwrote how the British
educational system made the westindian child subnormal bad
(27:24):
rephrase of the book.
He wrote them in those spacesthat we're sitting in decades
before.
So none of us are coming withnothing new and we must build on
legacy.
We must understand legacy,understand what it is that we
need to do now in our time.
And now in our time is notabout us wasting time
(27:47):
continually reacting to asystemically racist system.
What we can do, lisa, is tolimit the harm of that system.
How, what kind of ways?
I've got friends now who arestill head teachers, and one of
them in particular was talkingthe other day about the numbers
(28:08):
of children in her school thatcome from refugee communities.
So one of her and her staffpriorities, irrespective of
Ofsted, is to ensure that thosekids have something to eat every
(28:29):
day and, because they areliving in accommodation where
they cannot wash their clothes,that they can come to school and
bring them clothes and get thatwash.
That's how we lead from, youknow.
And, by the way, literacy andnumeracy rates are off the
charts.
So that's the easy bit.
But the real bit of being aschool leader in times like
(28:51):
these, with kids like these andwith the communities that we
serve, is that we focus on ourpriorities as leaders and not be
afraid and ashamed to do that.
That's one tiny thing, but canyou imagine what it's like for
those kids in that beautiful,beautiful school?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
it's like a refuge for them.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
It's a safe space of course, and so we lift the level
of what it is the purpose ofeducation.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I know we do talk a lot about Maslow's hierarchy of
needs and we talk about it inyou know, very abstract ways.
But you're right, if my clothesare dirty and if I'm hungry,
your theories and your contentmeans absolutely nothing to me,
because I've got unmet basicneeds In 1993, I was a young
(29:43):
Ofsted inspector.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Ofsted had only just been created, I think in 92 or
93.
At that time I was, beforebecoming an Ofsted inspector, I
was an advisor in the LondonBorough of Waltham Forest for
institutional review anddevelopment and what that meant
is that I was advisingheadteachers.
I was only you know, I wasyoung, I was in my 30s, early,
(30:08):
early 30s Became an afterinspector.
I remember inspecting a school.
I'm secondary trained as well,my subject is English, but I
often did the leadership andmanagement element of the report
.
They needed somebody to do aprimary school inspection and so
I've fitted in because, youknow, I was able to just do that
(30:29):
.
I remember going into thatprimary school and standing in
the dinner queue in 1993 andwatching a kid go up to get his
dinner and then watching him sitdown and then his brother, who
(30:49):
was in a different year group,came in and he said it wasn't
his turn to eat Because somehowI don't know how it was, whether
they were both not getting freeschool meals or whatever it was
, but it was like he needed toshare his dinner with his
brother.
1993, london, in the late 1980s,after I'd spent five joyous
(31:27):
years as a deputy head inCoventry and I moved to headship
.
I remember in a secondaryschool white working class
secondary school you could countthe black children on one hand
and it was me and the cleanersthere as black people in that
school.
So there the fight was on classand I remember seeing a kid
walking, you know, through thecorridor thinking to himself
(31:48):
he's a really disabled white kid.
And so I approached one of hisfriends and I said look, what's
happened to Simon, why is Simon?
And he said oh, miss, don't sayanything, don't say anything,
don't say anything.
I said look, what's happened toSimon, why is Simon living?
And he said oh, miss, don't sayanything, don't say anything,
don't say anything.
I said what?
He was living in a car.
He'd been living in a car fortwo weeks.
His parents kicked him out thehouse.
(32:09):
When he was able to, he managedto squeeze and go and get him
shirt, his wash in his friend'shouse, which often meant that
they were both late for school,etc.
Etc.
You have to live in the realworld of the people that you
serve.
(32:29):
So, of course, one of the firstthings that I started in my
school then was breakfast club,because you can't teach kids who
are hungry, yeah, and they'llbe falling asleep or badly
behaved by 10 o'clock.
So basic is ofsted.
Looking at that, I don't care.
(32:50):
It's what is required in orderfor us to fully fulfill our
function as leaders.
That's why I love people likeKoso okay, because I met him
many, many years later verydisciplined young man and a very
(33:10):
thoughtful and deep young man,and he was always interested in
other things other than puttingkids through processes that
prepare them for the world ofwork, and that's where our
leadership needs to be.
Now.
What kind of human beings arewe developing?
Do they have the skills forlife?
Speaker 2 (33:33):
because if they do, the skills for work will be yeah
, I wonder as well, because thecontext that we serve here with
international private schools,there is always a talk about DEI
and about inclusion, but it'svery theoretical.
There is no practicalapplication that I have seen of
(33:56):
true DEI being implemented inany effective way.
What people tend to do is theytend to do the easier things,
like they might put a few booksfrom authors who are from the
global majority, or if they'reshowcasing things on their
websites or brochures etc.
(34:18):
They try their best to find oneor two students from the global
majority, or maybe the onemember of staff from the global
majority who are on their teamto put forward for those
brochures.
But when you look at theirsenior leadership teams, middle
(34:39):
leadership teams, teams, etc.
The people they hire in forconsultancy, the people they
bring in for training, itscreams homogeny.
There you go and I'm reallycurious as to what can be done
(34:59):
in such a environment where onethese are international private
schools, so they're run byprivate organizations.
Majority of them are profit-led.
There are one or two littledrops of not-for-profits in
there, but the vast majority arefor corporations that are
shareholder first and they sella, especially the british
(35:25):
international schools.
They sell a ideology of britainequals white, and they actually
say things like we offer anauthentic British school
experience, which always makesme think have you been to
(35:46):
England any time recently?
What exactly does that mean anauthentic British experience in
your school here in Bahrain orsomewhere?
And so I'm really, you know,I'm curious.
How can we start to addresssome of those issues?
(36:06):
Because it's so nuanced, withthe profit part of it, because
if it were government, you couldlegislate and you could come at
it from a legislativeperspective, but having it being
so led by shareholders, I'mlike I'm at a loss.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Listen, that was a beautiful exposition of how
white supremacist systems workglobally.
Yeah, and I'm sorry to usethose terms in the DEI space,
but we need to start using thoseterms in the DEI space.
You see, dei makes it soundnice and you know, diversity,
(36:48):
inclusion, equity, as if it'sseparate to white supremacist
systems.
White supremacist system, whitesupremacist systems, is what
you have across colonialeducation systems across the
world, whether they're in AbuDhabi, london, kingston, jamaica
(37:11):
or Nairobi or Delhi, whereverthose tentacles have spread,
they actually are rooted inwhite supremacism.
So diversity, inclusion, is aside issue.
As you say, what is the purposeof their education system?
(37:32):
The purpose of their educationsystems is to maintain the
system.
Yeah, it isn't about bringingin people or diversifying the
system or, dare I say,decolonizing the system.
No, it's not about that.
It's about maintaining thesystem.
(37:53):
So, yes, all of their little,you know, approaches a little
black book on the shelf and alovely black face on them poster
.
This is why I say you know, wecan't reduce our conversation
around equity, inclusion anddiversity to who is sitting at
(38:15):
the table Number one.
It's not our table.
They always catch him at theedge.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
I'm going to translate for my listeners like
catching, I'm going to have tohave some texts.
I've not heard that expressionin a long time Catch A catch.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
So you're catching at somebody else's table number
one.
You're playing by their rulesnumber two.
At somebody else's table numberone, you're playing by their
rules number two, because onlythose of us who play by those
rules are really afforded thespace to enact and have any kind
of efficacy, because we're notchanging anything, we're just
(38:53):
maintaining.
So it really is about it.
So it really is about.
That's why I talk aboutlimiting the harm.
Yeah, but also now we do haveto be serious about where we sit
in terms of decolonizingeducation system, because we
will get to a space, even ininternational school, where the
(39:16):
systems that are running arejust not producing what is
needed for our society tosurvive.
And so the decolonizing ofsystems, looking at things
through different lenses if wewere just to think about
economics, food, and look atagricultural policy, health,
(39:41):
climate change, never mindeducation system, if we
decolonize the systems aroundthose areas and included
perspectives like yours and mine, then we'd be having different
conversations about what isgoing on in the world and it
would be beneficial foreverybody.
Lisa, but the current systemsare not meant for everybody.
(40:04):
They have eugenicist roots thatare based on who is deserving
and who is not.
And remember, in terms ofeugenicist thinking.
We black african people are atthe bottom of the pile in terms
of what we are considered toactually be able to contribute.
(40:27):
Yes, so even our assessments,our standardized assessment
tests, have eugenicist rulesthat will place black children
at the bottom, brown children inthe middle and white children
at the top, but they don't workfor even all of those classes of
children if you're cut acrossit in that way.
(40:48):
So people talk about, you know,the diversity, equity and
inclusion, and I know it'simportant for us to have people
pushing boundaries in thosespaces.
But I think that, to prevent usburning ourselves out, just
being honest with ourselves,this system is doing what it was
(41:08):
set up to do.
It's not broken.
It's only us that have aproblem with it.
Everybody else is cool.
So it's like what you're tryingto change.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
I mean, if it's serving who it's meant to serve,
why would they dismantle it?
I got a question for you.
Talk a lot about decolonization.
So for my listeners, who don'treally understand what that
concept means, what does it meanto you?
How do we define decolonization?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
okay, part of the thing that links the global
majority African, asian, black,brown, mixed heritage, arab,
indigenous peoples of the globalsouth and those who have been
racialized and minoritized asminorities is colonization.
(41:59):
Okay, that's one of the thingsthat link us, that when you look
across all of those peoples andsocieties, there has been
colonization, largely from theWest and European.
So there's systems, education,particularly if we look across
(42:20):
Africa and the Caribbean.
But you know, look beyond that,look to the Singapore's, look
to your Vietnam's, look to yourAustralia, look to your Canada,
look right across.
These places have all had thetentacles of British educational
system.
(42:40):
So that's the first light bulbmoment.
What other systems are in place?
Well, there's language and theuse of English.
That's another colonialleftover.
There's also and now I'm goinginto tricky territory religion
(43:01):
and Christianity.
If we're looking atdecolonization, what we are
saying is 85 of the world is notwhite, but the systems, the
primary systems that run theworld and are now actually
imploding, not working on all ofthe levels that I've talked
(43:25):
about economics, agriculture,global climate change, et cetera
, et cetera.
The people who are mostlysuffering from those systems are
global majority people.
So we need to decolonizeourselves from those systems.
(43:45):
So part of me is yeah, I playedmy part in the uk.
I got my you know mb for 35years service to education.
All right, I played my part,but now I have to be looking at,
well, what is the role in termsof us globally decolonizing our
(44:09):
system?
We have a colonized educationsystem out here in Jamaica and
across the Caribbean.
It does not serve us, so whyare we holding on to it?
We have to create educationsystems that have a different
purpose.
Number one and all the rubricsthat go with that how we assess
(44:32):
students, how we place students,what the roles of schools are,
public sector as opposed toprivately owned, and privately
owned without any ethical, youknow, underpinnings or any real
commitment to nation building.
(44:52):
So the kind of privatization ofeducation that's happened where
you are in the UK, etc.
Etc.
The academization, you know wecould see that going in the
wrong direction for a long time.
So the work that I'm doing,primarily from the Caribbean,
but right across the globe, isabout developing decolonized
(45:15):
education system, starting themfrom scratch.
What do we now need from oureducation system?
Speaker 2 (45:22):
What do we now need?
Tell me, I do we now need?
Tell me, I want to know what,because you're doing work in the
space and we talk a lot aboutit's no longer fit for purpose,
so I want to know what's theneed.
Where are we going?
Speaker 1 (45:35):
so the colonial education system had a very
simple direction of travel andpurpose.
The time when, when Britain setup public as in for the
majority of children in the UKpublic education system towards
the end of the 1800s, was asthey were moving into the
(45:57):
Industrial Revolution and whatthey needed from their education
system was to have compliantworkers, who were largely living
in rural parts of Britain, moveinto the cities that were going
(46:17):
to drive industrial revolution.
That's how you ended up withschools for the masses in the uk
, and they're clear about it.
There's books written about it.
So that was the purpose.
Is that the purpose ofeducation?
No, yeah, for every societyneeds to have a new conversation
because they got this all it'slike.
(46:39):
It's like us trying to watchvhs you know, video in
cyberspace.
It made no sense.
We've got this all.
Rooted technology, this wholething.
That was set up over 100 yearsago for a different purpose and
a different time, and now weneed to have a new conversation
(47:01):
about what do we need fromeducation?
What we need from education, ifwe look at how the world is
going, is for us to centerhumanity okay, for us to learn
what it is to be human.
So, what it is to be human isnot just to go to school, learn
(47:21):
to read and write so that youcan get a job.
What it is to be human is to beconnected to other human beings
.
That would be a good start.
Imagine if we all thought thatwe are connected to other human
beings, how we would operatedifferently.
From an African perspective, tobe a human being if you look at
(47:44):
Naim Atfa, for example is thatwe have a physical body, we have
an intellect, we are spiritual,ancestral and tribal souls.
Now this education system thatwe operate in on barely looks at
the intellectual we'reoperating on barely looks at the
(48:09):
intellectual, barely right, andmerely touches on the physical
and left everything else out.
So if you had a different frameof saying this is the purpose of
education, part of it is aboutdeveloping fully functioning,
happy, happy, efficacious,connected human beings.
One of the things that we wouldnot have that we will be having
(48:29):
next week is black boys havingto pull out their plaits, cut
their hair, etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Because there are some schoolsthat still focus on hairstyles
and want to exclude black kidsfor who they are.
Right.
So going back to a child thatis hungry can't learn If the
(48:55):
subliminal nuance message thatyou're getting from your school
is that if you come to schoolwith your afro, it is not
acceptable.
Then how are you going to learnalgebra if the hair on your
head, when the hair on your headisn't acceptable in the school?
You know what's going on insideyour head.
(49:16):
What kind of schooling processis going on there?
I mean, I'm reducing it tosimple things because you know
these simple things are thingsthat we need to be taking care
of.
So I want an education systemthat has all kinds of subjects.
I want an education system thatdoesn't have an artificial
divide between so-calledacademic and so-called practical
(49:40):
.
I want an education system thatallows young people in high
school to have project-basedlearning.
I want an education system andstandardized assessment tests
that were set up to read thebell curves.
They'll tell you where yourstandardized assessment tests
(50:01):
come from.
Yeah, you know.
And these tests in schools weredone in the united states on
black children who'd never goneto school, white children and
hispanic children for whomenglish was not their first
language, but they had to takethe test in english.
How are you going to get a fairtest?
And that's what our sats arestill based on.
(50:22):
So let's get our brainstogether and come up with
different forms of assessment.
For a start, never mind thecurriculum and what should be in
there, you and I shouldn't begoing in or sending our children
or our picnic or nieces ornephews or grandnieces into
schools where they learn todespise themselves, learn to see
(50:43):
whiteness as the the only youknow.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
That's the level, that's what we aim for, the way
we speak, the way we present,and that the form of blackness
that we're allowed to have isonly what the white media
creates for us, because wehaven't created something
through a set yeah,unfortunately, I know, because I
grapple with that with my sons,I do a lot of talking to them
(51:10):
about who they are and, you know, their dad is really, really
good at that and I think he'sbetter at that because he's not
from our kinds of background.
Because he's not from our kindsof background, you know, he
grew up obviously knowing,because he's from Southern
Africa and they didn't have thehistory of, you know, being
(51:33):
taken and West Africa isdifferent.
So they grew up, they havetheir tribes, they have their
traditions and they're very goodat preserving that, and so it
makes it easier for him to passthings on to the boys.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
And no running out of time, but they also had
apartheid.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
But he's not South African, he's Zambian,
zimbabwean, that side.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Okay, all right, okay , so part of what he's passing
on to his sons is that sense, asyou say, of self.
Yes, and every education system.
If we're asking what's thebaseline for every education
system, is that no child shouldleave that education system
(52:19):
without a sense of self.
At the moment, for blackchildren to leave those
education systems, they have tohave fathers, like your husband,
yeah, yeah, otherwise theschool system will undo
everything.
Yes, and so what we want areschool systems that operate like
(52:40):
it takes a village to raise afamily, because they're not
always going to be fathers orhusbands in those households,
and so what you want is for theschool to do that, the school to
give them a sense of pride, andyou're not going to do that
from a half-baked British andcolonial education system that
the British themselves arerunning from.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Yeah, it's hard.
It's a hard one, I think, alsowhen you think about our
students I'm talking aboutstudents from the global
majority when they go into theseschools and these spaces.
It is so hard for them, I canremember it's so hard for them
to find a path because they'resometimes being intentionally
(53:24):
led down a path of lowexpectations.
Let me tell you what I noticedof Black Caribbean and Black
African children and saying donot allow them to take your sons
(53:50):
out of their lessons to go andrun track or play football.
These things are important, butthey must not be a substitute,
and the parents will be like, oh, but then say him good.
I'm like, yes, then say himgood, I'm like, yes, he's good,
but if he cannot hold his ownacademically and he breaks his
(54:11):
shin I don't know where yourshin is he's going to struggle.
I said don't allow them.
If they want those trophies andthose cups, let them stay
behind after school for a setamount of time and do the
practice.
And when he gets home, ensurethat he has a good meal and he
(54:33):
sits down for a set time and hedoes his work at home as well.
Because what used to happen?
They used to be told.
Well, because what used tohappen?
They used to be told oh no,it's fine, you'll be um good at
sports and you will do all ofthat just to get them to get the
trophies, and you know it.
It really it pained me.
I was like no, no, no, no.
(54:55):
So behind the school's back Iused to be like ring the no, no,
no, no, no, don't, don't allowthat absolutely.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
and you see, lisa, you see, if we were proper
intellectual educationalists, wewould understand that the
research that needs to be doingone of the things that I'm
talking about out here in termsof depoloniality how do you
teach bodily kinestheticyoungsters or people with a
bodily kinesthetic learningpreference that doesn't mean
(55:25):
that they can't access learningby any other means yes, how do
you teach them academic concepts?
Because same kids who are goodat football and sports have the
same propensity to bemathematicians and surgeons, etc
(55:47):
.
Etc.
Etc.
So you see, if we were reallyinterested in schooling, we
would go down that path,wouldn't we?
Because you and I are the firstpeople to be having that kind
of conversation and tounderstand how things work.
But no, we use schooling, noteducation, to separate and
define and to place people inhierarchies, and never the twain
(56:13):
shall meet.
Find me a surgeon whose way ofplaying is not sport or music or
something.
In fact, you find me.
You find me that person, thatbodily kinesthetic way of
operating.
So those kids could have beenin the football team, but they
needed also to be in top setmaths and it was a very easy
(56:36):
step for them to get there.
But hell no.
And here's the irony of what Iused to hear as an Oxford
inspector the reason they're notin top set is not really
because of their ability, it'sbecause of their behavior yeah,
I used to hear that as wellthat's a whole other part
thought, you see why we need ourown systems, so we don't have
(56:58):
to be dealing with thisfoolishness yeah, I get what
you're saying.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
So we've come, we've, we've.
I knew this is what happened,but I'm loving it and I'm
enjoying the, the banter, somuch.
Listen, you're still.
You're still vibrant and fullof energy.
What are you doing nowadays?
I mean, you're on the beautifulisland of jamaica, but what are
you doing?
Where's your work?
What are you centering on now?
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I'm centering on decoloniality, but what that
looks like is a contract with abig company that makes ice cream
globally, where what theywanted to discuss was how that
company's roots in europe, howtheir colonial roots, could
(57:47):
deliver decolonial fruits.
So what that means is I've beenworking with them for two years
and it's been fabulous, joyous,happy work where we're looking
at a business model thatdecolonizes itself.
That's what you asked me whatmy work looks like.
(58:07):
That's what it looks like there.
What it looks like in London isthat for councils like
Westminster, I do all of theanti-racist training Okay, and I
do leadership work outside ofthat with their top tier.
What that means is that we haveto create a space where that
(58:34):
kind of anti-racist training canthen be be facilitated into
changes in policies within thatlocal authority, and that has to
be facilitated by theleadership.
So work in a political contextwhere the government has said
(58:58):
there's no such thing assystemic build-up and you can't
even use certain words now.
So it's helping that kind ofleadership to ensure that that
kind of training lands well inthe political context that we're
operating in.
And that means coaching outsideof the headlines about how you
(59:21):
navigate this, how you writethat paper who you connect with
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
That's what that looks like.
Okay, then over here on theCaribbean side, mia Amor Motley,
the Prime Minister of Badeda,who should be Queen of the
Caribbean and probably will beat some point.
(59:42):
I do some work with her, andthe most important work is at
the moment setting up adecolonizing education CARICOM
commission, which will belooking at how we all across the
Caribbean, begin to decolonizeour education system and, of
(01:00:03):
course, in the very, very earlystages, we need to be talking to
our African brethren, some ofwhom are further down the road
in terms of making sure thatthose British colonial systems
that still operate across thecontinent of Africa are
decolonized too.
Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Brilliant.
How can people reach you ifthey want to get in touch with
you?
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Don't contact me on the Saturdays that I'm DJing on
the beach, because you have toprotect your joy and that's why
I may look like this.
Yeah, I'm dragged, butseriously, you can share my
email.
It's really simple.
Rosemary, r-o-s-e-m-a-r-y atsecond S-E-D-O-N-D dash
(01:00:56):
principal, e-r-i-n-c-i-p-l-e dotcom.
Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Brilliant.
Thank you so much.
It's been absolutely fabulous,just fabulous, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
Thank you so much.
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hello everyone.
This is Lisa Grace coming toyou again with another episode
of the Teach Middle East podcast, season six.
Today's episode is a little bitself-indulgent.
I have to be very upfront withmy listeners because I'm going
to be talking a lot of personalstuff, maybe from my history and
my journey in England, teachingin England as a young teacher,
(00:40):
and then I'm also going to begleaming from the knowledge of
the one, the only, rosemaryCampbell-Stevens, a veteran,
someone I look up to, someone Iadmired for years and years.
I am so happy to have you onthe podcast.
Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Thank you so much, lisa.
Listen, it's a great, greatopportunity to be able to reach
your audience, but also it islovely to reconnect with you, so
I consider this an honor, thankyou so much you know.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
All right.
So I'm going to tell the story.
Guys, I met Rosemary I'm sureshe doesn't remember poor little
old me, but here's the deal.
I was 20, I want to say 23, 24years old.
I was teaching in Enfield at alittle school called, not little
biggish school, called LeeValley High School in Enfield on
Bullsmore Lane that's howspecific it is.
(01:35):
And I once my principal rang meand she said come and see me,
you might have something youmight be interested in.
At the time I was one of twoblack teachers in the school.
I would travel up from EdmontonI you know my base is Tottenham
, so obviously I'm traveling upfrom my ends to Enfield in a
(01:56):
working class white neighborhood, bullsmore Lane, right in the
heart of it, to teach at LeeValley.
And she said to me I think youmight be interested in this
program called Investing inDiversity.
And so she said I will put youon if you say yes.
So I was like, yes, any littlething, like I'm keen, went on
(02:17):
this program.
I think I went on a retreat.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I want to say sorry, arquette, I can't remember where
we went retreat I want to saysorry or Kent I can't remember
where we went, okay, okay, sothat would be in London.
We, we used to start investingin diversity in a residential,
and that would run from Fridayevening through till Sunday
afternoon, and it was inGreenwich.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Greenwich.
It was somewhere south.
Listen, south of the rivermeans I'm out of my depth, yeah.
So I went to this thing and atthat time, like I said, I was in
my early 20s and the Lisa yousee today who is so talkative
and outgoing is a bit of afacade.
I am very, very quiet, and Iwas even quieter then.
(03:07):
So I remember I was on thisresidential and you gave us some
scenarios to do, yes, and thenwe had to do these scenarios and
then we had to do some feedbackand you were in the group
hearing the feedback and I satthere quiet as a mouse because,
one, I was out of my depth andtwo, I was just well intimidated
(03:27):
by everybody there.
And I remember you saying to mewhat do you have to say?
I guess you probably felt sorryfor me sitting in the corner
looking like I've lost.
I've lost the will, and yousaid you, what do you have to
say?
And I spoke, spoke.
And then you said to me youmake a lot of sense.
Next time don't sit with yourknowledge so quietly and not say
(03:53):
anything.
Speak up, learn to find yourvoice.
That was, like you know, aseminal moment.
It was so pivotal for mebecause it clicked in my head.
I I'm like no one will everknow what I'm capable of if I
sit in the corner.
But I think growing up I kindof had my voice beaten out of me
(04:14):
a bit, so I was always reallyquiet and so that was my turning
point.
So this is why I always say topeople when they say oh, I said
there was this lady who Iadmired forever.
Because she said that to me, Istarted to speak for myself a
little bit more each time, andthat's how it began.
(04:35):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Oh, bless, bless your heart, bless your heart.
That's such a lovely story aswell because investing in
diversity started in 2003.
And at that time I had alreadybeen working in education for 20
plus years, so you know, whenwe started, investing in
(05:03):
diversity was definitely aboutwas for us, as global majority
educators, to find our voice.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
That was where I learned the whole term global
majority.
And you saw that into usbecause I used to use the other
phrase ethnic minority, becausethat's what we grew up learning
in schools and stuff like thatethnic minority, because that's
what we grew up learning inschools and stuff like that.
So we we took that on and kindof embraced that.
But you turned that for me whenyou thought no, when you look
(05:32):
at the world, we are themajority.
How did that come about?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
okay.
So, lisa, I was invited,alongside a number of other
Black educators, to attend aconversation that was being held
at the Institute of Educationat University College London
about the state of Londonschools, and at that time, the
(05:59):
Labour administration wassetting up a huge multi-million
pound program called the LondonChallenge, and the London
Challenge was focused on raisingthe attainment of London school
children, and so part of thatbig program I think you know it
(06:22):
was probably about 80 millionback then in the day, and you
know it ran from 2003 to 2011.
A significant part of theprogram was focused on
leadership, and so I was invited, alongside a group of about 10
other black educators, todiscuss principally why it was
(06:45):
that there weren't more blackand Asian and minority ethnic
was the term then people inleadership positions in London
schools and why they were notgetting through NPQH.
But the conversation was verymuch in the deficit mode, as it
usually is around not enough ofus having the confidence, not
(07:10):
having the experience to putourselves forward, minoritizing
us, as opposed to looking at theracist, eugenicist system that
was ensuring that black andother global majority people
(07:34):
were not getting through mpqh.
There are lots of people whowanted to come on the investing
in diversity program and didn'thave the kind of head teacher
that you had and to get ontolots of programs we had to.
You know, people would contactus and say my head wouldn't bat
me on this, and there are lotsof deputies who contacted us
(07:55):
that said they were not gettingthe support that they needed to
get through NPQA and so thesystemic racism wasn't part of
the conversation and so thesystemic racism wasn't part of
the conversation.
Sadly to say, the majority ofBlack leaders sitting around
that table, locked into the kindof colonial mindset of you know
, we don't need a specialtreatment, et cetera, et cetera,
(08:17):
refused to say that we neededsomething alongside NPQH, not to
replace, but alongside NPQH.
That was not about bringing ourpeople up to speed.
Our people were up to speed,but it was about us addressing
(08:39):
the systemic racism in thesystem that was needed in order
for more of us to break through.
And how could we, as globalmajority leaders, begin to do
that?
And the first thing we neededto do was to not call ourselves
ethnic minorities, because wewere ethnic minorities in London
or on the planet.
(08:59):
And the minute you have thatshift in mindset, you have
different conversations aboutwhat you're doing.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, because it takes away that victim mentality
and it empowers you to think ofyourself as worthy.
And that's what I walked awaywith when I did that program
that sense of worthiness, that Ibelong and I should take up
space.
And when I tell you, I'm notsaying it was the only thing
that propelled me, but it wasone of the fuels in my tanker
(09:30):
that actually pushed me forward.
I saw things from a differentlens, because you have to
understand.
When you grow up aroundTottenham or you grow up around
Edmonton, what do you see of ourpeople?
And it's not that they're notcapable, it's not that they're
not smart they are but thesystem holds them in that
position and locks them in.
(09:51):
And until you see yourselfoutside of that, you can't move
forward.
And that's what happened.
Is that you know you think thesystem would try to help.
You did not, did not.
That was the only piece of Iwould call it professional
development that has ever stuckout in my mind and I've done
(10:14):
many years of professionallearning and I think one of the
reasons is that I always say topeople you cannot be what you
cannot see for me.
I saw you and I was like she'sa Jamaican woman, tall, very
sure of herself.
It was not something I had seenbefore, especially within the
(10:35):
space.
So when we used to come for thetwilight sessions at institute
of ed and I used to look aroundbecause I'm very like, I was
quieter but I was very observantand I would look around at all
the other lecturers and stuffand I was like there was
everyone and then there was youand I was like, see, this is
(10:55):
what I'm talking about.
It was such a novel not anovelty, but it was such a good
thing to see somebody who youcould look at and emulate.
And I wondered, from yourperspective, how effective do
you think that program was, thatinvesting in diversity, like?
What feedback have you gottenover the years?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Okay.
I think it was hugelyinfluential.
So for your.
3.5 million pounds was put intoinvesting in diversity.
It ran for eight years, from2003 through to 2011,.
So the full length of theLondon Challenge programme,
(11:41):
which is unusual for Black-ledinitiatives, because usually
there's a sort of a kickstart interms of funding and then they
cut it after 18 months and thenthey don't talk about the impact
.
A thousand teachers in Londonalone went through that program
(12:02):
in over the course of thoseeight years and they were all
aspiring leaders, so middleleaders upwards, a significant
number of the leaders that youwill see now in the space.
If you look in linkedin, youknow your diana asagi's, your
ann pal you're.
(12:23):
If we talk about the leader ofthe equity and social justice,
they've just set up a universitymodel Paul Miller.
There are a lot of people and alot of schools in London that
are now top in terms of studentattainment, where either people
(12:49):
were tutors on that program,like Paul Miller and Diana
Osagie they went through thatprogram, like yourself or entire
senior leadership levels incertain schools went through
that program and we are nowseeing the results in terms of
(13:10):
their academic output.
So investing in diversity was sosuccessful after just four
years.
It was a franchise, if you likewas bought by the University of
Toronto, oise, and they ran theprogram for several years and
that's where the collaborationcame in, with Professor John
(13:32):
Portelli and Dr Hervine Singh,who is now in your part of the
world.
And then we ran programs.
We developed programs Investingin Diversityors, developed
programs right across EnglandOutside of London.
We had investing in diversityleads, but when you go to
(13:52):
Yorkshire and Humber, we haddiverse leaders.
We had a program in Bristol, wehad a program in Liverpool.
Now, none of these things havebeen documented outside of what
we are doing and so investing indiversity, people are already
beginning to document some ofthat, what is now a 20-odd year
(14:14):
legacy.
So I think we've been hugelyinfluential.
And then there's the numbers ofus who have moved out onto the
global stage, and so I still dowork with people across the
continent of Africa who wereinvesting in diversity graduates
, if you like, people who areleading change across their
(14:37):
systems and, of course, out herein the Caribbean.
Some of us came back, but a lotof us went over to Africa or are
in the Middle East and acrossthe world, and really it's a
massive program that I hope thatsomebody will do the research
on in terms of its impact, toquantify it, because one of the
(15:00):
reasons that I wrote my littlebook, educational Leadership and
the Global MajorityDecolonizing Narratives, wasage
and African heritage, part ofthe global majority and land in
(15:29):
Gatwick and somehow morph intobeing a minority ethnic.
It's very, very limited thinking.
So even when people try to lookat it numerically and say, oh
well, you're not a globalmajority in Kent, well, what
does global mean?
I'm a global citizen wherever Igo.
(15:49):
So if I walk into one roomanywhere on planet, any postal
code, I'm still part of theglobal majority and what we need
to do is to tap in to thatlineage.
We are not starting fromscratch.
We have things that we have tosay and right about now, as the
systems are colliding and, youknow, just collapsing, we need
(16:12):
to widen that intellectual spaceand more of us need to find our
voice in that space.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Very much so.
What's led to this passion?
What's your background, what'syour history?
Because we see you well, I seeyou as a starring figure.
But where did it start, like?
Where did you grow up?
Where did you go to school?
What led you to education?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I'm hearing you loud and clear and I have these
conversations all the timebecause my mother will be 99 in
a couple of weeks.
Where is she?
In England?
In Newtown, in Birmingham.
She will be 99 years.
Let's start with my parents.
I was born in Handsworth inBirmingham.
(16:54):
That's where I was born, not inJamaica, handsworth, birmingham
, but in 1968, when I was bornin 1961, in 1968, my father died
.
Yes, that's why you, as alittle 23-year-old yeah, I'm 64.
Whoa.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, you've got to tell me what you eat, what you
drink, all right, what you doafter Coconut water.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Woo, also black, don't crack and live good, oh,
wow, oh, anyway.
Anyway, I grew up in a verynationalistic Jamaican household
.
My parents were of the Windrushgeneration but they never gave
me any of that claptrap aboutcoming over to England and
(17:45):
thinking that the streets werepaved with gold or that I would
have to work twice or threetimes as hard to be as good as
white people.
I never got any of that in myhousehold, none of it.
In 1968, my father died when Iwas seven years old and the last
thing that I remember himsaying to us in like you know,
(18:08):
kind of like a serious way as afamily and that was me, my
younger sister, joe, my olderbrother and sister had already
left home he wanted us to watchsomething on the TV and our TV
was a really big deal.
My parents had bought a fivebedroom, three reception room
(18:29):
house, victorian house inBirmingham that I couldn't
afford to buy.
Now that's where I grew upWorking class people but with a
different kind of mindset and myfather said to me and joe we
needed to come into the frontroom, which we were allowed to
go to the front room every nowand again to play.
(18:50):
But when it was to watch telly,it was to be watch serious
things and we needed to watch.
What was on the tv and what wewere watching was dr martin
luther king's funeral.
I didn't realize it at the time.
I thought that it was dr martinluther king I could see the
grainy black and the time Ithought that it was Dr Martin
Luther King I could see thegrainy black and white pictures
and knew that he was a black man, that he was an American and
(19:13):
that we were connected.
So the whole thing about globalmajority.
I always saw myself as a globalperson and connected to other
black people, and so I grew upin Handsworth through 1970s,
passed my 11 plus, went to thegrammar school at the time when
(19:33):
there was a color bar beingoperated in Birmingham, and so
knowing our history is really,really, really important.
Now, that could have meant mesaying, well, oh so I'm special
that I've managed to pass my 11plus and go to King Edward's
grammar school.
But no, the intervention of afabulous whitehead teacher
(19:57):
ensured, because he told mymother don't put down any of
those other schools for Rosemary, she's going to pass her 11th
class, she's going to go to kingedward.
Mom had never heard of kingedward's because by that time
her father had died, and so heguided us.
But a few years later, when myyounger sister took the same
11th class, grew up in the samehome, just as bright as me in
(20:17):
fact, joe was brighter than medidn't pass.
My mother challenged that.
And then there was some kind ofinteraction between her and the
school no, not her and theschool with the local authority
which said that year the passrate, you know that they'd
change, et cetera, et cetera.
(20:38):
It just so happened that noneof the black girls who got into
King Edward's ever had a sisteror a brother who went through to
those foundation schools.
So clearly you know 14, you'regrowing up, you're watching
Roots on the telly and this isall before your time.
But that was part of ourtransitioning and so on.
(21:02):
1980s was when I first qualifiedto teach.
Early 1980s, that's when ourcities were burning.
While I was training to be ateacher at Birmingham University
, I was also part ofPan-Africanist organizations,
and so the one Pan-Africanistorganizations and so the one
(21:23):
pan-Africanist organization thatwas a part of run sat day
schools as well as ran abuilding company and also looked
at ways that we could beself-sufficient in food.
So that's my grounding.
I couldn't be anything otherthan that, not what the family
that I grew up in, not in thespace that I grew up in, but
(21:47):
also Lisa, it's about the timebecause one of the things that I
say to myself in terms of youknow, younger generation people
like yourself and those whofollow you, the time that you
grew up in as well as the space,is very, very important.
So to be a child of the 60s,when that whole kind of world
(22:11):
revolutionary movement 68 inparticular when the father died
is a critical historical yearacross all diasporan communities
, around race and the reckoningwith race.
And then because my parents,you know, would have been born,
as I said, my mother is 99.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So you know pan-Africanist movements that
had started, marcus Garvey, allof those that they would have
been steeped in that, and sothat's what's grounded and
guided me yeah, and it's sofunny because you're talking
about how very poignant thosedays were and now I'm looking at
(22:55):
today's days and how a lot ofthe structures that were built
up to facilitate a level ofinclusivity and diversity is now
being dismantled and it makesme wonder what do you think we
should be doing in these days,because now it's like a reversal
(23:15):
.
We're going back to the 60ssomehow.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Well, you see, one of the missteps I think, perhaps
in our generation generation mygeneration and the generation
that came before is thatpan-Africanist movements were
actually about self-development,you know, being
self-determining.
(23:38):
It wasn't all about fittinginto existing systems and trying
to shift them.
It was about building our ownparallel movements and ways of
being, as well as shifting thesystem so that everybody really
could have more equity.
(23:59):
So to give you a very, veryclear example that five bedrooms
, three reception halls myfather couldn't initially get a
mortgage for it.
So what did they then pull on?
Did they start lobbying thebanks and the building society
and this that that no, no, no,no, no, no, no, then set up
(24:22):
their own way of operatingcalled partner yeah, I know what
that is exactly, and everyafrican person knows what that
is and every asian person knowswhat that is, because they have
it in their cultural frameworks.
And so part of what it is to beself-determining and part of the
(24:44):
reason that we haven't movedforward is that we haven't built
our parallel systems, theequivalent of partner in terms
of education, in terms of oureconomics, in terms of how we
manage our food, in terms of howwe manage our health, as well
as trying to decolonize thisdeeply colonial system that we
(25:09):
are now find ourselves in andhas spread its tentacles across
the world.
So it has to be parallel traps.
Lisa, yeah, I had thatconversation with one of our
colleagues on linkedin thismorning where he say, well,
these systems don't exist.
Yes, bruv, they do.
They do.
The reason that you know,partner and all of those things,
(25:32):
the reason my mother's 99 yearsold, is that she has a Jamaican
diet.
That's an African diet thatsuits her disposition.
She eats banana, she eats ackee, she eats breadfruit, she eats
all of those things.
And she also has, you know, apart-time school, chinese food
(25:52):
and Indian food.
You know, my mom is that's oneof the things that is really
been grounded in me.
My mum is that's one of thethings that is really been
grounded in me that how youground yourself physically,
spiritually, intellectually,will take you through and enable
you to actually be who you'resupposed to be and therefore do
(26:14):
what you're supposed to do atany given time.
And the only way that I canstand I'm glad you called me
tall, because I'm not well.
Yeah, to me it's like yeah, yousee who I do stand tall.
I do stand tall.
And and I think the other thingis that we don't look at legacy
enough I always go back tolegacy.
(26:37):
I always go back to theshoulders that I stood on.
So, if you remember, investingin diversity, friday night we
always start with professorgosjan.
Yes, we always start withprofessor gosjan, because he was
my mentor before mentoring wasa thing.
Yeah, so to teach the nextgeneration that I'm not the
(27:00):
poorest one talking about thesethings, here are the elders.
Let them tell you how thatpeople used to organize, how, at
that same institute where weused to sit in those sessions in
those evenings during the week.
That's where Bernard Cowardwrote how the British
educational system made the westindian child subnormal bad
(27:24):
rephrase of the book.
He wrote them in those spacesthat we're sitting in decades
before.
So none of us are coming withnothing new and we must build on
legacy.
We must understand legacy,understand what it is that we
need to do now in our time.
And now in our time is notabout us wasting time
(27:47):
continually reacting to asystemically racist system.
What we can do, lisa, is tolimit the harm of that system.
How, what kind of ways?
I've got friends now who arestill head teachers, and one of
them in particular was talkingthe other day about the numbers
(28:08):
of children in her school thatcome from refugee communities.
So one of her and her staffpriorities, irrespective of
Ofsted, is to ensure that thosekids have something to eat every
(28:29):
day and, because they areliving in accommodation where
they cannot wash their clothes,that they can come to school and
bring them clothes and get thatwash.
That's how we lead from, youknow.
And, by the way, literacy andnumeracy rates are off the
charts.
So that's the easy bit.
But the real bit of being aschool leader in times like
(28:51):
these, with kids like these andwith the communities that we
serve, is that we focus on ourpriorities as leaders and not be
afraid and ashamed to do that.
That's one tiny thing, but canyou imagine what it's like for
those kids in that beautiful,beautiful school?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
it's like a refuge for them.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
It's a safe space of course, and so we lift the level
of what it is the purpose ofeducation.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I know we do talk a lot about Maslow's hierarchy of
needs and we talk about it inyou know, very abstract ways.
But you're right, if my clothesare dirty and if I'm hungry,
your theories and your contentmeans absolutely nothing to me,
because I've got unmet basicneeds In 1993, I was a young
(29:43):
Ofsted inspector.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Ofsted had only just been created, I think in 92 or
93.
At that time I was, beforebecoming an Ofsted inspector, I
was an advisor in the LondonBorough of Waltham Forest for
institutional review anddevelopment and what that meant
is that I was advisingheadteachers.
I was only you know, I wasyoung, I was in my 30s, early,
(30:08):
early 30s Became an afterinspector.
I remember inspecting a school.
I'm secondary trained as well,my subject is English, but I
often did the leadership andmanagement element of the report
.
They needed somebody to do aprimary school inspection and so
I've fitted in because, youknow, I was able to just do that
(30:29):
.
I remember going into thatprimary school and standing in
the dinner queue in 1993 andwatching a kid go up to get his
dinner and then watching him sitdown and then his brother, who
(30:49):
was in a different year group,came in and he said it wasn't
his turn to eat Because somehowI don't know how it was, whether
they were both not getting freeschool meals or whatever it was
, but it was like he needed toshare his dinner with his
brother.
1993, london, in the late 1980s,after I'd spent five joyous
(31:27):
years as a deputy head inCoventry and I moved to headship
.
I remember in a secondaryschool white working class
secondary school you could countthe black children on one hand
and it was me and the cleanersthere as black people in that
school.
So there the fight was on classand I remember seeing a kid
walking, you know, through thecorridor thinking to himself
(31:48):
he's a really disabled white kid.
And so I approached one of hisfriends and I said look, what's
happened to Simon, why is Simon?
And he said oh, miss, don't sayanything, don't say anything,
don't say anything.
I said look, what's happened toSimon, why is Simon living?
And he said oh, miss, don't sayanything, don't say anything,
don't say anything.
I said what?
He was living in a car.
He'd been living in a car fortwo weeks.
His parents kicked him out thehouse.
(32:09):
When he was able to, he managedto squeeze and go and get him
shirt, his wash in his friend'shouse, which often meant that
they were both late for school,etc.
Etc.
You have to live in the realworld of the people that you
serve.
(32:29):
So, of course, one of the firstthings that I started in my
school then was breakfast club,because you can't teach kids who
are hungry, yeah, and they'llbe falling asleep or badly
behaved by 10 o'clock.
So basic is ofsted.
Looking at that, I don't care.
(32:50):
It's what is required in orderfor us to fully fulfill our
function as leaders.
That's why I love people likeKoso okay, because I met him
many, many years later verydisciplined young man and a very
(33:10):
thoughtful and deep young man,and he was always interested in
other things other than puttingkids through processes that
prepare them for the world ofwork, and that's where our
leadership needs to be.
Now.
What kind of human beings arewe developing?
Do they have the skills forlife?
Speaker 2 (33:33):
because if they do, the skills for work will be yeah
, I wonder as well, because thecontext that we serve here with
international private schools,there is always a talk about DEI
and about inclusion, but it'svery theoretical.
There is no practicalapplication that I have seen of
(33:56):
true DEI being implemented inany effective way.
What people tend to do is theytend to do the easier things,
like they might put a few booksfrom authors who are from the
global majority, or if they'reshowcasing things on their
websites or brochures etc.
(34:18):
They try their best to find oneor two students from the global
majority, or maybe the onemember of staff from the global
majority who are on their teamto put forward for those
brochures.
But when you look at theirsenior leadership teams, middle
(34:39):
leadership teams, teams, etc.
The people they hire in forconsultancy, the people they
bring in for training, itscreams homogeny.
There you go and I'm reallycurious as to what can be done
(34:59):
in such a environment where onethese are international private
schools, so they're run byprivate organizations.
Majority of them are profit-led.
There are one or two littledrops of not-for-profits in
there, but the vast majority arefor corporations that are
shareholder first and they sella, especially the british
(35:25):
international schools.
They sell a ideology of britainequals white, and they actually
say things like we offer anauthentic British school
experience, which always makesme think have you been to
(35:46):
England any time recently?
What exactly does that mean anauthentic British experience in
your school here in Bahrain orsomewhere?
And so I'm really, you know,I'm curious.
How can we start to addresssome of those issues?
(36:06):
Because it's so nuanced, withthe profit part of it, because
if it were government, you couldlegislate and you could come at
it from a legislativeperspective, but having it being
so led by shareholders, I'mlike I'm at a loss.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Listen, that was a beautiful exposition of how
white supremacist systems workglobally.
Yeah, and I'm sorry to usethose terms in the DEI space,
but we need to start using thoseterms in the DEI space.
You see, dei makes it soundnice and you know, diversity,
(36:48):
inclusion, equity, as if it'sseparate to white supremacist
systems.
White supremacist system, whitesupremacist systems, is what
you have across colonialeducation systems across the
world, whether they're in AbuDhabi, london, kingston, jamaica
(37:11):
or Nairobi or Delhi, whereverthose tentacles have spread,
they actually are rooted inwhite supremacism.
So diversity, inclusion, is aside issue.
As you say, what is the purposeof their education system?
(37:32):
The purpose of their educationsystems is to maintain the
system.
Yeah, it isn't about bringingin people or diversifying the
system or, dare I say,decolonizing the system.
No, it's not about that.
It's about maintaining thesystem.
(37:53):
So, yes, all of their little,you know, approaches a little
black book on the shelf and alovely black face on them poster
.
This is why I say you know, wecan't reduce our conversation
around equity, inclusion anddiversity to who is sitting at
(38:15):
the table Number one.
It's not our table.
They always catch him at theedge.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
I'm going to translate for my listeners like
catching, I'm going to have tohave some texts.
I've not heard that expressionin a long time Catch A catch.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
So you're catching at somebody else's table number
one.
You're playing by their rulesnumber two.
At somebody else's table numberone, you're playing by their
rules number two, because onlythose of us who play by those
rules are really afforded thespace to enact and have any kind
of efficacy, because we're notchanging anything, we're just
(38:53):
maintaining.
So it really is about it.
So it really is about.
That's why I talk aboutlimiting the harm.
Yeah, but also now we do haveto be serious about where we sit
in terms of decolonizingeducation system, because we
will get to a space, even ininternational school, where the
(39:16):
systems that are running arejust not producing what is
needed for our society tosurvive.
And so the decolonizing ofsystems, looking at things
through different lenses if wewere just to think about
economics, food, and look atagricultural policy, health,
(39:41):
climate change, never mindeducation system, if we
decolonize the systems aroundthose areas and included
perspectives like yours and mine, then we'd be having different
conversations about what isgoing on in the world and it
would be beneficial foreverybody.
Lisa, but the current systemsare not meant for everybody.
(40:04):
They have eugenicist roots thatare based on who is deserving
and who is not.
And remember, in terms ofeugenicist thinking.
We black african people are atthe bottom of the pile in terms
of what we are considered toactually be able to contribute.
(40:27):
Yes, so even our assessments,our standardized assessment
tests, have eugenicist rulesthat will place black children
at the bottom, brown children inthe middle and white children
at the top, but they don't workfor even all of those classes of
children if you're cut acrossit in that way.
(40:48):
So people talk about, you know,the diversity, equity and
inclusion, and I know it'simportant for us to have people
pushing boundaries in thosespaces.
But I think that, to prevent usburning ourselves out, just
being honest with ourselves,this system is doing what it was
(41:08):
set up to do.
It's not broken.
It's only us that have aproblem with it.
Everybody else is cool.
So it's like what you're tryingto change.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
I mean, if it's serving who it's meant to serve,
why would they dismantle it?
I got a question for you.
Talk a lot about decolonization.
So for my listeners, who don'treally understand what that
concept means, what does it meanto you?
How do we define decolonization?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
okay, part of the thing that links the global
majority African, asian, black,brown, mixed heritage, arab,
indigenous peoples of the globalsouth and those who have been
racialized and minoritized asminorities is colonization.
(41:59):
Okay, that's one of the thingsthat link us, that when you look
across all of those peoples andsocieties, there has been
colonization, largely from theWest and European.
So there's systems, education,particularly if we look across
(42:20):
Africa and the Caribbean.
But you know, look beyond that,look to the Singapore's, look
to your Vietnam's, look to yourAustralia, look to your Canada,
look right across.
These places have all had thetentacles of British educational
system.
(42:40):
So that's the first light bulbmoment.
What other systems are in place?
Well, there's language and theuse of English.
That's another colonialleftover.
There's also and now I'm goinginto tricky territory religion
(43:01):
and Christianity.
If we're looking atdecolonization, what we are
saying is 85 of the world is notwhite, but the systems, the
primary systems that run theworld and are now actually
imploding, not working on all ofthe levels that I've talked
(43:25):
about economics, agriculture,global climate change, et cetera
, et cetera.
The people who are mostlysuffering from those systems are
global majority people.
So we need to decolonizeourselves from those systems.
(43:45):
So part of me is yeah, I playedmy part in the uk.
I got my you know mb for 35years service to education.
All right, I played my part,but now I have to be looking at,
well, what is the role in termsof us globally decolonizing our
(44:09):
system?
We have a colonized educationsystem out here in Jamaica and
across the Caribbean.
It does not serve us, so whyare we holding on to it?
We have to create educationsystems that have a different
purpose.
Number one and all the rubricsthat go with that how we assess
(44:32):
students, how we place students,what the roles of schools are,
public sector as opposed toprivately owned, and privately
owned without any ethical, youknow, underpinnings or any real
commitment to nation building.
(44:52):
So the kind of privatization ofeducation that's happened where
you are in the UK, etc.
Etc.
The academization, you know wecould see that going in the
wrong direction for a long time.
So the work that I'm doing,primarily from the Caribbean,
but right across the globe, isabout developing decolonized
(45:15):
education system, starting themfrom scratch.
What do we now need from oureducation system?
Speaker 2 (45:22):
What do we now need?
Tell me, I do we now need?
Tell me, I want to know what,because you're doing work in the
space and we talk a lot aboutit's no longer fit for purpose,
so I want to know what's theneed.
Where are we going?
Speaker 1 (45:35):
so the colonial education system had a very
simple direction of travel andpurpose.
The time when, when Britain setup public as in for the
majority of children in the UKpublic education system towards
the end of the 1800s, was asthey were moving into the
(45:57):
Industrial Revolution and whatthey needed from their education
system was to have compliantworkers, who were largely living
in rural parts of Britain, moveinto the cities that were going
(46:17):
to drive industrial revolution.
That's how you ended up withschools for the masses in the uk
, and they're clear about it.
There's books written about it.
So that was the purpose.
Is that the purpose ofeducation?
No, yeah, for every societyneeds to have a new conversation
because they got this all it'slike.
(46:39):
It's like us trying to watchvhs you know, video in
cyberspace.
It made no sense.
We've got this all.
Rooted technology, this wholething.
That was set up over 100 yearsago for a different purpose and
a different time, and now weneed to have a new conversation
(47:01):
about what do we need fromeducation?
What we need from education, ifwe look at how the world is
going, is for us to centerhumanity okay, for us to learn
what it is to be human.
So, what it is to be human isnot just to go to school, learn
(47:21):
to read and write so that youcan get a job.
What it is to be human is to beconnected to other human beings
.
That would be a good start.
Imagine if we all thought thatwe are connected to other human
beings, how we would operatedifferently.
From an African perspective, tobe a human being if you look at
(47:44):
Naim Atfa, for example is thatwe have a physical body, we have
an intellect, we are spiritual,ancestral and tribal souls.
Now this education system thatwe operate in on barely looks at
the intellectual we'reoperating on barely looks at the
(48:09):
intellectual, barely right, andmerely touches on the physical
and left everything else out.
So if you had a different frameof saying this is the purpose of
education, part of it is aboutdeveloping fully functioning,
happy, happy, efficacious,connected human beings.
One of the things that we wouldnot have that we will be having
(48:29):
next week is black boys havingto pull out their plaits, cut
their hair, etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Because there are some schoolsthat still focus on hairstyles
and want to exclude black kidsfor who they are.
Right.
So going back to a child thatis hungry can't learn If the
(48:55):
subliminal nuance message thatyou're getting from your school
is that if you come to schoolwith your afro, it is not
acceptable.
Then how are you going to learnalgebra if the hair on your
head, when the hair on your headisn't acceptable in the school?
You know what's going on insideyour head.
(49:16):
What kind of schooling processis going on there?
I mean, I'm reducing it tosimple things because you know
these simple things are thingsthat we need to be taking care
of.
So I want an education systemthat has all kinds of subjects.
I want an education system thatdoesn't have an artificial
divide between so-calledacademic and so-called practical
(49:40):
.
I want an education system thatallows young people in high
school to have project-basedlearning.
I want an education system andstandardized assessment tests
that were set up to read thebell curves.
They'll tell you where yourstandardized assessment tests
(50:01):
come from.
Yeah, you know.
And these tests in schools weredone in the united states on
black children who'd never goneto school, white children and
hispanic children for whomenglish was not their first
language, but they had to takethe test in english.
How are you going to get a fairtest?
And that's what our sats arestill based on.
(50:22):
So let's get our brainstogether and come up with
different forms of assessment.
For a start, never mind thecurriculum and what should be in
there, you and I shouldn't begoing in or sending our children
or our picnic or nieces ornephews or grandnieces into
schools where they learn todespise themselves, learn to see
(50:43):
whiteness as the the only youknow.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
That's the level, that's what we aim for, the way
we speak, the way we present,and that the form of blackness
that we're allowed to have isonly what the white media
creates for us, because wehaven't created something
through a set yeah,unfortunately, I know, because I
grapple with that with my sons,I do a lot of talking to them
(51:10):
about who they are and, you know, their dad is really, really
good at that and I think he'sbetter at that because he's not
from our kinds of background.
Because he's not from our kindsof background, you know, he
grew up obviously knowing,because he's from Southern
Africa and they didn't have thehistory of, you know, being
(51:33):
taken and West Africa isdifferent.
So they grew up, they havetheir tribes, they have their
traditions and they're very goodat preserving that, and so it
makes it easier for him to passthings on to the boys.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
And no running out of time, but they also had
apartheid.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
But he's not South African, he's Zambian,
zimbabwean, that side.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Okay, all right, okay , so part of what he's passing
on to his sons is that sense, asyou say, of self.
Yes, and every education system.
If we're asking what's thebaseline for every education
system, is that no child shouldleave that education system
(52:19):
without a sense of self.
At the moment, for blackchildren to leave those
education systems, they have tohave fathers, like your husband,
yeah, yeah, otherwise theschool system will undo
everything.
Yes, and so what we want areschool systems that operate like
(52:40):
it takes a village to raise afamily, because they're not
always going to be fathers orhusbands in those households,
and so what you want is for theschool to do that, the school to
give them a sense of pride, andyou're not going to do that
from a half-baked British andcolonial education system that
the British themselves arerunning from.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Yeah, it's hard.
It's a hard one, I think, alsowhen you think about our
students I'm talking aboutstudents from the global
majority when they go into theseschools and these spaces.
It is so hard for them, I canremember it's so hard for them
to find a path because they'resometimes being intentionally
(53:24):
led down a path of lowexpectations.
Let me tell you what I noticedof Black Caribbean and Black
African children and saying donot allow them to take your sons
(53:50):
out of their lessons to go andrun track or play football.
These things are important, butthey must not be a substitute,
and the parents will be like, oh, but then say him good.
I'm like, yes, then say himgood, I'm like, yes, he's good,
but if he cannot hold his ownacademically and he breaks his
(54:11):
shin I don't know where yourshin is he's going to struggle.
I said don't allow them.
If they want those trophies andthose cups, let them stay
behind after school for a setamount of time and do the
practice.
And when he gets home, ensurethat he has a good meal and he
(54:33):
sits down for a set time and hedoes his work at home as well.
Because what used to happen?
They used to be told.
Well, because what used tohappen?
They used to be told oh no,it's fine, you'll be um good at
sports and you will do all ofthat just to get them to get the
trophies, and you know it.
It really it pained me.
I was like no, no, no, no.
(54:55):
So behind the school's back Iused to be like ring the no, no,
no, no, no, don't, don't allowthat absolutely.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
and you see, lisa, you see, if we were proper
intellectual educationalists, wewould understand that the
research that needs to be doingone of the things that I'm
talking about out here in termsof depoloniality how do you
teach bodily kinestheticyoungsters or people with a
bodily kinesthetic learningpreference that doesn't mean
(55:25):
that they can't access learningby any other means yes, how do
you teach them academic concepts?
Because same kids who are goodat football and sports have the
same propensity to bemathematicians and surgeons, etc
(55:47):
.
Etc.
Etc.
So you see, if we were reallyinterested in schooling, we
would go down that path,wouldn't we?
Because you and I are the firstpeople to be having that kind
of conversation and tounderstand how things work.
But no, we use schooling, noteducation, to separate and
define and to place people inhierarchies, and never the twain
(56:13):
shall meet.
Find me a surgeon whose way ofplaying is not sport or music or
something.
In fact, you find me.
You find me that person, thatbodily kinesthetic way of
operating.
So those kids could have beenin the football team, but they
needed also to be in top setmaths and it was a very easy
(56:36):
step for them to get there.
But hell no.
And here's the irony of what Iused to hear as an Oxford
inspector the reason they're notin top set is not really
because of their ability, it'sbecause of their behavior yeah,
I used to hear that as wellthat's a whole other part
thought, you see why we need ourown systems, so we don't have
(56:58):
to be dealing with thisfoolishness yeah, I get what
you're saying.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
So we've come, we've, we've.
I knew this is what happened,but I'm loving it and I'm
enjoying the, the banter, somuch.
Listen, you're still.
You're still vibrant and fullof energy.
What are you doing nowadays?
I mean, you're on the beautifulisland of jamaica, but what are
you doing?
Where's your work?
What are you centering on now?
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I'm centering on decoloniality, but what that
looks like is a contract with abig company that makes ice cream
globally, where what theywanted to discuss was how that
company's roots in europe, howtheir colonial roots, could
(57:47):
deliver decolonial fruits.
So what that means is I've beenworking with them for two years
and it's been fabulous, joyous,happy work where we're looking
at a business model thatdecolonizes itself.
That's what you asked me whatmy work looks like.
(58:07):
That's what it looks like there.
What it looks like in London isthat for councils like
Westminster, I do all of theanti-racist training Okay, and I
do leadership work outside ofthat with their top tier.
What that means is that we haveto create a space where that
(58:34):
kind of anti-racist training canthen be be facilitated into
changes in policies within thatlocal authority, and that has to
be facilitated by theleadership.
So work in a political contextwhere the government has said
(58:58):
there's no such thing assystemic build-up and you can't
even use certain words now.
So it's helping that kind ofleadership to ensure that that
kind of training lands well inthe political context that we're
operating in.
And that means coaching outsideof the headlines about how you
(59:21):
navigate this, how you writethat paper who you connect with
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
That's what that looks like.
Okay, then over here on theCaribbean side, mia Amor Motley,
the Prime Minister of Badeda,who should be Queen of the
Caribbean and probably will beat some point.
(59:42):
I do some work with her, andthe most important work is at
the moment setting up adecolonizing education CARICOM
commission, which will belooking at how we all across the
Caribbean, begin to decolonizeour education system and, of
(01:00:03):
course, in the very, very earlystages, we need to be talking to
our African brethren, some ofwhom are further down the road
in terms of making sure thatthose British colonial systems
that still operate across thecontinent of Africa are
decolonized too.
Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Brilliant.
How can people reach you ifthey want to get in touch with
you?
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Don't contact me on the Saturdays that I'm DJing on
the beach, because you have toprotect your joy and that's why
I may look like this.
Yeah, I'm dragged, butseriously, you can share my
email.
It's really simple.
Rosemary, r-o-s-e-m-a-r-y atsecond S-E-D-O-N-D dash
(01:00:56):
principal, e-r-i-n-c-i-p-l-e dotcom.
Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Brilliant.
Thank you so much.
It's been absolutely fabulous,just fabulous, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
Thank you so much.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!