February 15, 2025 • 30 mins
This episode explores the often-silent experiences of neurodiverse teachers and the barriers they face within the education system. Shona OCallaghan shares her journey, illustrating the importance of inclusivity for both staff and students and the need for greater awareness about neurodiversity in schools.
• Discussion on the hidden neurodiversity among teachers
• Shauna's personal journey with dyslexia, ADHD, and dyscalculia
• The impact of neurodiversity on teaching practices
• The necessity of supportive school cultures and leadership
• The role of parents in advocating for neurodiversity
• Insights on the strengths neurodiverse educators bring to the classroom
• The holistic benefits of inclusivity for students and teachers
• Steps schools can take to foster true inclusion
• Shauna's vision for a more accepting educational system
Connect with Shona here: Shona@empoweringcreativeminds.com and admin@empoweringcreativeminds.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey everyone, this is Lisa Grace coming back with
another episode of the TeachMiddle East podcast.
Welcome back if you are areturning listener and welcome
if you are brand new.
I am delighted to have ShaunaO'Callaghan on the podcast with
me and we are talking somethingthat has piqued my interest.
So a little backstory, mylisteners.
(00:36):
So I met Shauna at Guess and wewere talking about what she
does and she does lots of stuff,and she'll tell you what she
does in a minute.
Talking about what she does,and she does lots of stuff, and
she'll tell you what she does ina minute.
But she said something thatpiqued my interest.
She said she used to teach andshe is neurodiverse.
So I was like, because I hardlyhear teachers describe
(00:58):
themselves as neurodiverse.
They always describe theirstudents and they always talk
about inclusivity and all ofthat.
So that made me curious as towhere are our neurodiverse
teachers?
What are we doing for them?
Are they able to even admittheir own neurodivergence?
(01:19):
And so I wanted to have Shona,and so I wanted to have Shona
shed some more light on thattopic.
We're going to go deep.
Guys.
Sit back, relax, get your cupof coffee, your tea.
This one is for all of us.
Welcome to the podcast, shona.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Thank you very much.
I am very pleased to be hereand thank you so much for you
know, for listening to me when Iwas speaking about
neurodiversity within education,and not just thinking about the
students but also thinkingabout the teachers.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah.
So you know what piqued myinterest In school?
We know that there are studentswho are neurodivergent, but
where do they go when they leaveschool?
Who do they become?
I'm sure a percentage of thembecome teachers.
And so I then started to thinkabout my own career and I
(02:17):
thought I don't remember any ofmy colleagues in all the schools
I've worked, including theschools I've led, who have come
to me and said you know, I amnot neurotypical as people put
it, but I have this differencethat should be highlighted, or I
(02:42):
have this that needsaccommodation.
No one I mean zero, andeverybody that we as colleagues
in the staff room looked at asbeing a little bit different.
We would not, and this is fulldisclosure.
I'm not right to have done it,but this is the truth.
We normally say something likeoh, she's a bit off off.
(03:04):
No, that's not even what weshould do, but we've done it.
And if you're not honest enoughto say where you're falling
short, then you're not honest,and that's what we've done.
And so tell me what qualifiesyou to talk about this topic oh,
okay, where do I start?
Speaker 3 (03:23):
well, as you know, I'm an educational consultant.
I founded Empowering CreativeMinds in order to eradicate the
whole taboo aroundneurodiversity, and that
obviously starts with thestudents, but also for the
teachers.
I'm a dyslexia specialistteacher myself and doing a PhD
(03:44):
and all those other things inorder to deepen my knowledge.
But more than any of that thatmakes me qualified is that I am
neurodiverse.
I am dyslexic, adhd anddyscalculia all three and I am a
former teacher.
I was a teacher for many yearsand, like yourself, in
management and led, and so itwas the experience that I had in
(04:10):
education that really I supposeit grated on me for a long time
that I couldn't or I felt Icouldn't talk about my
neurodiversity, that I couldn'tshare that with the kids, and so
really I came out.
I like to say I came out asbeing diverse and neurodiverse
(04:30):
and telling everyone only in thelast few years, and that's
having more experience now andmore confidence in myself, the
confidence that I gained backafter losing it once I became a
teacher actually, but that's alonger story to tell.
No dive in, dive in.
Why did you lose yourconfidence as a teacher?
Actually?
But that's a longer story totell.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
No.
Dive in.
Dive in.
Why did you lose yourconfidence as a teacher?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Okay.
So when I went to university.
So I spent without going intotoo many details I spent most of
my childhood not reallyunderstanding why I was the only
one that couldn't keep up witheveryone else, I couldn't go at
the same pace, why I was the onewho was still sitting at the
kitchen table when everyone elsehad finished their homework.
(05:12):
You know brother and sisterlaughing at me like you're still
there, you know.
And that was part of growing upand not understanding why was
it that I couldn't understandthe times tables, that they just
wouldn't stick the same withspelling, the same with I could
read and this is very big, youknow.
People seem to think that youknow that if you're dyslexic you
can't read, and that's not true.
(05:33):
That's not true.
You know we can read.
We just might read at a slowerpace.
So I spent a long time reallynot liking myself very much as a
child and really not feelingcomfortable within my own skin
and that's the truth and notknowing why I felt different to
everyone else and I suppose thatdifference didn't get picked up
(05:56):
on in the 1980s you know that'sshowing my age there, but it
wasn't that well known at thatstage and I suppose I wasn't as
as um, as severe or as bad asmaybe some other cases may have
been, and then also I was a girl, so I was super good at, uh,
hiding and masking andpretending everything was okay.
(06:18):
But things went on and I gotheld back a year in primary
school, which actually wasn'tthe best decision.
Because I decided then that,well, if you're going to treat
me like I'm stupid, then I'mgoing to act like I'm stupid.
And that's the way I felt, andI use that word because that is
a word that I applied to myselfand it's also a word in which I
(06:40):
hear kids in 2024 still using todescribe themselves.
And that is not, it's notacceptable anymore.
But I decided at that stagewell, okay, I'm just not going
to participate.
If that's how you view me, thenthat's how I'm going to treat
my.
You know to act.
And so I suppose at the timethe decision was made, thinking
(07:03):
it was the best thing for me,but actually it wasn't the best
thing for me, but actually itwasn't the best thing for me.
And so then I ended up going tosecondary school afterwards, in
the same secondary school thatall my friends had gone to, and
so I was a year behind them andyou can imagine.
That too, meant I just sat backand said I'm just not, I'm not
doing anything.
And it was one of my Englishteachers actually thing.
(07:23):
And it was one of my Englishteachers actually.
It was my English teacher, mrMcKeown, who called me out and
gave out to me one day and saidto me you have to start putting
some effort in, because you'regetting the best grades without
even putting the effort in.
Imagine as a dyslexic person.
So that showed that he waslooking past the spelling and
the punctuation and the grammarand he was looking at the
content that was there, which iswhat we should be doing anyway
(07:43):
as teachers.
So, long story short, I scrapedinto university and that had
been my dream to get touniversity.
You know, I just wanted to goto university, I wanted to be a
teacher, I wanted to be like MrMcKeown, I wanted to be that
English teacher, because it washim who had made a difference in
my life.
After the conversation I'd hadwith him, I started to believe
(08:05):
in myself a little bit more, andso I started to work that
little bit harder.
And then I did get intouniversity, and it was in
university in the beginning ofmy second year that I got called
into the office of a particularprofessor and she just said the
exact thing that I had beenterrified that anyone was going
(08:30):
to say to me, which was youdon't belong here.
And I was crushed.
I was crushed, I broke down.
I was trying to explain to herthat I was working.
She was under the impression Iwasn't working hard enough and
then she said, when I explainedI was working, she said you're
not.
You know, you don't belong here.
Now she made a mistake, so Idon't hold it against her.
(08:53):
We're all human beings and wecan all make mistakes.
But thankfully, something withinme my stubbornness, one of my
strengths, of my dyslexia is myperseverance and my
determination.
And and also, you know, thatlittle spark that Mr McKeown had
lit within me inspired me tokeep going.
And it wasn't long after it wasabout a week or a week and a
(09:15):
half after that, the otherprofessor called me in and I
thought, oh no, that's it, thisis it, I'm out.
And I thought, oh no, that's it, this is it, I'm out, you know.
And I was just ready to, youknow, just to go, and I
explained to him what hadhappened and what had happened
(09:37):
with the other professor and howI felt and and all of those
things.
And it was at that point thathe said to me you know, maybe
you should go and get diagnosedfor dyslexia.
And at first I didn'tunderstand what that meant and I
actually thought that that wasa bad thing.
And it was a friend of mine whoencouraged me to go and said no
, don't be silly who knew moreabout it than I did.
And I went and I got diagnosedand so really, to answer your
question, it was then that whenI got diagnosed, then that when
(10:11):
I got diagnosed, something justclicked and it was the mindset
that I had beforehand of I can'tor I shouldn't be here, or
someone's going to discover meor I'm going to get a tap on the
shoulder and tell me that theymade an administrative mistake
and I wasn't supposed to be here.
And I suddenly become reallyempowered and I owned my
dyslexia and I became a studentrep for two years and I was
(10:31):
really vocal about it and I justit really became a part of my
identity and so I went on and Ibecame a teacher and I was so
proud of myself because Ithought I'm going to get into
those classrooms.
I'm going to help these kidsand I'm going to say, look, if I
can do it, you can do it.
And then I was told, maybedon't say that.
(10:53):
And it was that severalcomments, and I can't say it was
only in one school.
It wasn't only in one school,but it was several people in
several different, you knowsuperior roles who said it to me
and you know, not meaning to doreally much damage, but that
chips away at your confidence.
(11:14):
And so then I started having tohide it again.
I had to hide my dyslexia againand then I became really
conscious of it, especially asan English teacher, and I became
the head of English at a veryprestigious private British
school and I was really burnedout, really burned out, trying
(11:35):
to overcompensate all the timebecause I was petrified of
making one tiny little mistakein case anyone would discover
that I was dyslexic.
And that meant in meetings.
That meant you know, speakingto colleagues, that meant, you
know, with the kids.
(11:55):
Obviously it meantover-preparing and
over-preparing andover-preparing and burnout.
And so I completely lost myconfidence in that sense.
And now it's only now, later,that I've become really vocal
about it again and really own itagain that now I'm far more
comfortable and feel happierwithin myself, and I think a lot
(12:19):
of teachers would yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Why are schools asking teachers who are
neurodiverse to hide thatspecial part of them?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Well, they're not supposed to.
They're not supposed to becausewe're supposed to be I mean, we
are the people who are leadinginclusion.
We're supposed to lead from thefront.
We're supposed to be the onesthat are showing the kids
especially now in the last fewyears that we're showing the
kids that they have to embracetheir neurodiversity and build
(12:56):
their self-confidence and theirself-esteem and work on their
strengths and all of thosethings.
But it's not socially acceptablewithin the education sector to
be neurodiverse, which is justirony in itself.
But apart from that, it's alsoit's a bit silly because there
are many, many neurodiverseteachers.
(13:16):
We just don't know about themofficially because they won't
say it.
And schools are asking teachers.
I suppose, or in my experienceand I can talk about my own
experience and I know from otherpeople who other teachers who
have approached me after I'vebeen training in schools, the
same that they're not surewhether to talk about it or not.
(13:36):
And that really is down to theschool and the school is
thinking about what are theparents going to say?
What are they going to say?
Well, that's a good question.
It depends on the parents,because if you have parents who
are well-educated and whounderstand neurodiversity, who
(13:59):
understand the importance ofinclusion, who understand that
within the classroom, their kidsare possibly the neurodiverse
kids, which means that they mayalso be as well.
And then also you have kids whoare not considered neurodiverse.
And I don't like as wediscussed one other time I don't
like the term neurotypical,because nobody is neurotypical.
(14:20):
Our brain is like ourthumbprint and so we're all
unique.
We all learn in different waysand our brains are all
influenced in different ways,but within the classroom we're
always if parents are aware that.
You know, kids working togethercan really bring a lot to a
team.
When you have lots of differenttypes of ways of thinking, you
(14:42):
know that isn't just within thekids, it has to also be for the
teachers.
What amazing strengths canneurodiverse teachers bring to
the classroom?
Or should I say, do bring tothe classroom already?
Yeah, you know, and one of thereasons that schools will do
that is because they're afraidof the parents, and the parents
(15:03):
may need education andunderstanding and knowledge
about neurodiversity and tounderstand how this is not
something taboo, it's notsomething that's, you know,
going to go away, it's notsomething that isn't there
already that we have to bring inand accept.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
It's something that is there already, but it is
something that we have to acceptand become more open to thing
that we have to accept andbecome more open to, and I
wonder what the school's part isin creating that education for
parents.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
It's a really important part.
But I think before you start toeducate parents, you must
educate senior leadership.
You must have a certain amountof understanding within
leadership of why it'sbeneficial to do this within the
(15:56):
culture of the school and alsoto understand how creating a
culture within the school whichis truly, truly inclusive, then
you will have teachers that willbe able to be more open.
You'll have teachers that willbe that will have better
well-being, which then tricklesdown to the students having
(16:17):
better well-being.
And then when students havebetter well-being, parents have
better well-being, as we allknow, as parents also.
But when you have directors andsenior leadership who are
really on board and reallycreating that culture within the
school, and then you teach thekids and the kids quite often
(16:44):
teach the parents, let's behonest.
They go home and teach theparents Then they're in a better
position to be able to workwith the community of the school
and to bring about trueinclusion, where everyone is
really accepted for who they areand what needs that they may
have, and that that's okay tohave some certain needs met and
adjusted, yeah, I'm thinkingabout our context of Middle East
(17:07):
schools, especiallyinternational private schools,
and the facade of perfectionthat they give out to the public
that it will take an actualmassive paradigm shift to get
them to be able to change thenarrative around the school.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Because when the schools talk about inclusivity,
they really aren't talking aboutthe staff.
I have to be honest this isjust my opinion.
They're talking about theprovisions they can make for
students.
What if they could advertisetheir inclusivity of staff?
What would that do?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
If they could well.
First of all, I think I thinkyou know what would that do for
the kids in the school.
I think that's a, that's a abetter way to look at it,
because we are expecting ourkids to, as I say, to embrace
their neurodiversity, tounderstand others'
(18:07):
neurodiversity and why they needcertain provisions.
You know you quite often havekids ask, for example well, why
do they have extra time inprivate I'm speaking about
private international schools?
Well, why do they have extratime?
Well, why do they have this?
And you know the answer quiteeasily.
And what I used to say and whatI recommend teachers to say is
well, why does someone need apair of glasses?
(18:30):
You know, just to level theplaying field, and it's the same
thing.
Ok, so I lost the train ofthought.
There's my dyslexic moment foryou.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, we were saying what would that do if schools
were to say, in our school weare not only inclusive for
students needs, we're inclusivefor staff's needs as well.
Um, we include neuro diversestaff on purpose on our staff
body and we celebrate them.
(19:00):
What would that do?
And you said that would dowonders for the students.
But I think it would do wondersfor them because everything is
driven by the bottom line herewhere OK, is it good for profit,
is it good for getting studentenrollment up?
I think it is.
If you say you have a diversestaff body.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Because that's where I was leading, I believe.
So that's where I was leading,I believe.
If you have students who feelhappier in school and understand
things better and are morecomfortable, then you have
parents who are happier.
And when you have parents whoare happier, then they're
telling other parents to youhave to bring your kid to my
school because they're having agreat education, they're so
(19:47):
comfortable, they're so happyand they're moving forward and
they're sharing strengths.
Also, when you look atcompanies like Google and
Microsoft and NASA, who have 50%of their employees who are
neurodiverse, you have MI6, 60%of their employees are
neurodiverse.
Why are these companies lookingfor neurodiverse people?
(20:11):
They're looking forneurodiverse people because of
the strengths that they bring tothe job.
Now, that does not mean thatall neurodiverse people can go
and get a job at NASA, but itdoes mean that certain strengths
are recognized.
What strengths are recognizedwithin the education sector?
I mean some of the most amazingteachers that I have seen, who
(20:34):
take kids out of the classroom,who do the most craziest lessons
, and you think, wow, that'samazing and the kids love them.
They are usually autistic ordyslexic, they're ADHD.
There's something else thatthey will after a little bit of
conversation that they will tellyou, especially when you're
(20:54):
open with them.
And so it's those types ofactivities and teachers that
bring so much to the classroom.
And when teachers are able totalk about their neurodiversity
and share that with the kids,not only does it help the
well-being of the students, ithelps the well-being of the
teachers.
And then you have teacherretention, which means we don't
(21:17):
have to keep trying to find newteachers.
Think of how much it costs forHR to advertise, to go through
interviews, all of thosedifferent things, the whole
onboarding process.
If we were just to retain theteachers we have, wouldn't it be
so much better for the schoolon the bottom line, as you say?
(21:39):
So you have many differentaspects.
You have teachers that wouldfeel comfortable coming to your
school because they know thatthey're going to be accepted for
who they are and their needsare going to be met, but they're
also going to be able to justbreathe and do their job and do
it well.
And then you also have parentsthat are going to be telling
(22:00):
other parents you've got to getyour kids to come to our school
because they love it and they'relearning from all these
different teachers who think inall different ways.
You know, not just your classic, and so it's all bringing so
much more to the classroom andoutside of the classroom as well
.
So, like I said, there's manydifferent ways that this can
(22:22):
really help not just the bottomline, but the whole culture of
the school and, yes, it issomething that we need to think
about how to bring it forward.
But the uae are leadinginclusion at the moment.
If anyone can do this, it's theuae.
(22:42):
The inclusion policy in the uaeat the moment is second to none
.
It is second to none andthere's huge changes being made
in the UK, or at least beingsuggested, being proposed at the
moment, which is fantastic, andI spoke about this the other
day as well.
But I think it's reallyimportant for people like the
(23:03):
ministers in the UK to look atthe UAE and say and in North
America, to look at the UAE andsay, well, what are they doing
and how are they doing this?
Because it is second to none.
It is completely up to datewith all of the most recent
research.
But the one thing that's missingis the teachers.
(23:25):
How can we have true inclusionif we don't include the teachers
?
Because the kids are watching,the kids are looking at the, and
you know from being a teacher,as same as I do, that the kids
are looking at the teacher andthey're thinking what you've
just taught me you're autistic,or you're dyslexic, or you're
(23:47):
dyspraxic, and they know.
Or you're autistic, or you'redyslexic, or you're dyspraxic
and they know, or you're ADHD.
And so why are you notadmitting it then?
Why are you not talking aboutit?
But I'm supposed to, sosomething's missing.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, A school listens to this podcast and
wants to start the journey oftrue inclusion, which includes
the staff.
What do they do?
What can they do?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
First of all, they get in touch with Empowering
Creative Minds and we help them.
Yeah, but that's exactly whatthey do.
But the second of all they mustfirst of all look at sitting
down with management, withmanagement.
It must start from from, fromabove.
It can't start from the bottom,because there is already a lot
(24:35):
of knowledge about inclusion ata classroom level.
Now there needs to be more.
We need more training and andthat's a lot of things that we
can provide.
But it has to start at the top,because it's at the top that
need to change the culture ofthe school in order to make the
environment one which teachersare able to Step forward, be
(25:00):
brave and know that their careeris not at risk, not going to
lose their job, they're notgoing to be passed over for
promotion, they're not going tolose their job, they're not
going to be passed over forpromotion and they're not going
to have criticisms.
They're not going to be lookedat in a different way or treated
differently.
They need to create thatculture and that starts with
education education for slt, forunderstanding how to build this
(25:25):
and make it sustainable overtime.
Not just a fad, not just a tickbox, a CPD session no, it has
to be something which is seriousand builds through the core and
the values of the school, andthat must also be incorporated
within the policy and have thata policy level.
And so inclusion should bewithin policy as well, but not
(25:48):
just for the teachers or notjust for the students, sorry for
the teachers.
So that would also look at howare you onboarding your teachers
?
What does your interviewprocess look like?
We worked with a school here inSpain last year about exactly
this.
In a neurodiverse friendlyschool, how are you onboarding
(26:08):
your teachers?
How are you expecting theteachers to to come through an
interview process and be openabout the neurodiversity if it's
not very neurodiverse friendly?
And then, of course, you canwork on ways to make things
accessible within the school, soputting in provisions that
everyone has access to.
(26:29):
You don't have to beneurodiverse to access them.
You can also access them ifyou're not considered
neurodiverse.
But I think we all are a littlebit neurodiverse in different
ways anyway.
So that would be some of theways, but definitely you would
start at the top.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah.
So my last question, before wetalk about how people can
connect with you, is what isyour hope?
Because the work you do is suchhard work.
You know you're championingsomething that is not the
easiest to champion, so what'syour hope?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
that's a really good question.
That is a really good question.
It's actually, I'd say it's,more than a hope.
It's.
It's my dream, it's my passion,it is my motivation.
What is it that I want toachieve?
What is it that I want to see?
I find I find, when I talk aboutthis, people some different
comments, that people say to meand they ask me this question
and they say but do you thinkthe world is ready for this?
And my answer is well, itdoesn't matter if the world is
(27:37):
ready or not.
We are neurodiverse teachersand we're here Right.
So my dream, what I intend toachieve, or at least start the
ball rolling for in my lifetime,is that every teacher within a
school will be comfortableenough sitting around in a
(28:00):
meeting and say you know what Idon't want to take the notes,
you take the notes.
I'm dyslexic and when someonewatches me writing I get really
nervous.
Do you mind doing that?
Or do you mind if I take thenotes on the computer, because
it just takes that pressure awayfrom me a little bit?
Or where, for example, anautistic teacher, a brilliant
(28:23):
autistic teacher, doesn't leavebecause they can't have very
small provisions made for them?
I want to see schools retainingamazing teachers who are leaving
schools in the droves at themoment because they don't have
the right provisions.
(28:43):
I want to see our kids lookingat the teachers and saying, well
, if they can do it, I can do it.
If she can stand up there andteach, imagine what I can do.
You know.
So that for me, and more wouldbe, I would love my child to
come home from school and saymommy, you know my teacher's
(29:05):
dyslexic too.
I mean my daughter's wellversed in dyslexia because I
talk about it all the time.
But for her to come home andtalk about it and talk about the
strengths and talk about it inthis way, from about a teacher
in the school, that would bevery empowering.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, it's definitely a good dream, mission, vision,
hope, however you want todescribe it.
Shauna schools are listeningfrom across the middle east and
even beyond.
How can they reach you?
Speaker 3 (29:36):
well, they can reach us on our website.
We have a wonderfully newwebsite and just been revamped,
and that iswwwempoweringcreativemindscom.
You can reach me at Shona atempoweringcreativemindscom and
also at admin atempoweringcreativemindscom.
(29:57):
I can put some of this in theseare.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I will link in the notes so that we can share them
as well.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
We also have the phone number as well the work
phone number if you need that.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Superb, superb.
Have the phone number as wellthe work phone number, if you
need that.
Superb, superb.
This is such a great topic andI am so grateful to you for
being so open, so vulnerable andsharing on the podcast.
I'm sure it's going to be thestart of a very interesting
conversation around inclusivityin our staff body people not
just in our student body, but inour staff body.
Thank you for being on thepodcast, shona.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for inviting me.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
Visit our websiteteachmiddleeastcom and follow us
on social media.
The links are in the show notes.
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey everyone, this is Lisa Grace coming back with
another episode of the TeachMiddle East podcast.
Welcome back if you are areturning listener and welcome
if you are brand new.
I am delighted to have ShaunaO'Callaghan on the podcast with
me and we are talking somethingthat has piqued my interest.
So a little backstory, mylisteners.
(00:36):
So I met Shauna at Guess and wewere talking about what she
does and she does lots of stuff,and she'll tell you what she
does in a minute.
Talking about what she does,and she does lots of stuff, and
she'll tell you what she does ina minute.
But she said something thatpiqued my interest.
She said she used to teach andshe is neurodiverse.
So I was like, because I hardlyhear teachers describe
(00:58):
themselves as neurodiverse.
They always describe theirstudents and they always talk
about inclusivity and all ofthat.
So that made me curious as towhere are our neurodiverse
teachers?
What are we doing for them?
Are they able to even admittheir own neurodivergence?
(01:19):
And so I wanted to have Shona,and so I wanted to have Shona
shed some more light on thattopic.
We're going to go deep.
Guys.
Sit back, relax, get your cupof coffee, your tea.
This one is for all of us.
Welcome to the podcast, shona.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Thank you very much.
I am very pleased to be hereand thank you so much for you
know, for listening to me when Iwas speaking about
neurodiversity within education,and not just thinking about the
students but also thinkingabout the teachers.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah.
So you know what piqued myinterest In school?
We know that there are studentswho are neurodivergent, but
where do they go when they leaveschool?
Who do they become?
I'm sure a percentage of thembecome teachers.
And so I then started to thinkabout my own career and I
(02:17):
thought I don't remember any ofmy colleagues in all the schools
I've worked, including theschools I've led, who have come
to me and said you know, I amnot neurotypical as people put
it, but I have this differencethat should be highlighted, or I
(02:42):
have this that needsaccommodation.
No one I mean zero, andeverybody that we as colleagues
in the staff room looked at asbeing a little bit different.
We would not, and this is fulldisclosure.
I'm not right to have done it,but this is the truth.
We normally say something likeoh, she's a bit off off.
(03:04):
No, that's not even what weshould do, but we've done it.
And if you're not honest enoughto say where you're falling
short, then you're not honest,and that's what we've done.
And so tell me what qualifiesyou to talk about this topic oh,
okay, where do I start?
Speaker 3 (03:23):
well, as you know, I'm an educational consultant.
I founded Empowering CreativeMinds in order to eradicate the
whole taboo aroundneurodiversity, and that
obviously starts with thestudents, but also for the
teachers.
I'm a dyslexia specialistteacher myself and doing a PhD
(03:44):
and all those other things inorder to deepen my knowledge.
But more than any of that thatmakes me qualified is that I am
neurodiverse.
I am dyslexic, adhd anddyscalculia all three and I am a
former teacher.
I was a teacher for many yearsand, like yourself, in
management and led, and so itwas the experience that I had in
(04:10):
education that really I supposeit grated on me for a long time
that I couldn't or I felt Icouldn't talk about my
neurodiversity, that I couldn'tshare that with the kids, and so
really I came out.
I like to say I came out asbeing diverse and neurodiverse
(04:30):
and telling everyone only in thelast few years, and that's
having more experience now andmore confidence in myself, the
confidence that I gained backafter losing it once I became a
teacher actually, but that's alonger story to tell.
No dive in, dive in.
Why did you lose yourconfidence as a teacher?
Actually?
But that's a longer story totell.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
No.
Dive in.
Dive in.
Why did you lose yourconfidence as a teacher?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Okay.
So when I went to university.
So I spent without going intotoo many details I spent most of
my childhood not reallyunderstanding why I was the only
one that couldn't keep up witheveryone else, I couldn't go at
the same pace, why I was the onewho was still sitting at the
kitchen table when everyone elsehad finished their homework.
(05:12):
You know brother and sisterlaughing at me like you're still
there, you know.
And that was part of growing upand not understanding why was
it that I couldn't understandthe times tables, that they just
wouldn't stick the same withspelling, the same with I could
read and this is very big, youknow.
People seem to think that youknow that if you're dyslexic you
can't read, and that's not true.
(05:33):
That's not true.
You know we can read.
We just might read at a slowerpace.
So I spent a long time reallynot liking myself very much as a
child and really not feelingcomfortable within my own skin
and that's the truth and notknowing why I felt different to
everyone else and I suppose thatdifference didn't get picked up
(05:56):
on in the 1980s you know that'sshowing my age there, but it
wasn't that well known at thatstage and I suppose I wasn't as
as um, as severe or as bad asmaybe some other cases may have
been, and then also I was a girl, so I was super good at, uh,
hiding and masking andpretending everything was okay.
(06:18):
But things went on and I gotheld back a year in primary
school, which actually wasn'tthe best decision.
Because I decided then that,well, if you're going to treat
me like I'm stupid, then I'mgoing to act like I'm stupid.
And that's the way I felt, andI use that word because that is
a word that I applied to myselfand it's also a word in which I
(06:40):
hear kids in 2024 still using todescribe themselves.
And that is not, it's notacceptable anymore.
But I decided at that stagewell, okay, I'm just not going
to participate.
If that's how you view me, thenthat's how I'm going to treat
my.
You know to act.
And so I suppose at the timethe decision was made, thinking
(07:03):
it was the best thing for me,but actually it wasn't the best
thing for me, but actually itwasn't the best thing for me.
And so then I ended up going tosecondary school afterwards, in
the same secondary school thatall my friends had gone to, and
so I was a year behind them andyou can imagine.
That too, meant I just sat backand said I'm just not, I'm not
doing anything.
And it was one of my Englishteachers actually thing.
(07:23):
And it was one of my Englishteachers actually.
It was my English teacher, mrMcKeown, who called me out and
gave out to me one day and saidto me you have to start putting
some effort in, because you'regetting the best grades without
even putting the effort in.
Imagine as a dyslexic person.
So that showed that he waslooking past the spelling and
the punctuation and the grammarand he was looking at the
content that was there, which iswhat we should be doing anyway
(07:43):
as teachers.
So, long story short, I scrapedinto university and that had
been my dream to get touniversity.
You know, I just wanted to goto university, I wanted to be a
teacher, I wanted to be like MrMcKeown, I wanted to be that
English teacher, because it washim who had made a difference in
my life.
After the conversation I'd hadwith him, I started to believe
(08:05):
in myself a little bit more, andso I started to work that
little bit harder.
And then I did get intouniversity, and it was in
university in the beginning ofmy second year that I got called
into the office of a particularprofessor and she just said the
exact thing that I had beenterrified that anyone was going
(08:30):
to say to me, which was youdon't belong here.
And I was crushed.
I was crushed, I broke down.
I was trying to explain to herthat I was working.
She was under the impression Iwasn't working hard enough and
then she said, when I explainedI was working, she said you're
not.
You know, you don't belong here.
Now she made a mistake, so Idon't hold it against her.
(08:53):
We're all human beings and wecan all make mistakes.
But thankfully, something withinme my stubbornness, one of my
strengths, of my dyslexia is myperseverance and my
determination.
And and also, you know, thatlittle spark that Mr McKeown had
lit within me inspired me tokeep going.
And it wasn't long after it wasabout a week or a week and a
(09:15):
half after that, the otherprofessor called me in and I
thought, oh no, that's it, thisis it, I'm out.
And I thought, oh no, that's it, this is it, I'm out, you know.
And I was just ready to, youknow, just to go, and I
explained to him what hadhappened and what had happened
(09:37):
with the other professor and howI felt and and all of those
things.
And it was at that point thathe said to me you know, maybe
you should go and get diagnosedfor dyslexia.
And at first I didn'tunderstand what that meant and I
actually thought that that wasa bad thing.
And it was a friend of mine whoencouraged me to go and said no
, don't be silly who knew moreabout it than I did.
And I went and I got diagnosedand so really, to answer your
question, it was then that whenI got diagnosed, then that when
(10:11):
I got diagnosed, something justclicked and it was the mindset
that I had beforehand of I can'tor I shouldn't be here, or
someone's going to discover meor I'm going to get a tap on the
shoulder and tell me that theymade an administrative mistake
and I wasn't supposed to be here.
And I suddenly become reallyempowered and I owned my
dyslexia and I became a studentrep for two years and I was
(10:31):
really vocal about it and I justit really became a part of my
identity and so I went on and Ibecame a teacher and I was so
proud of myself because Ithought I'm going to get into
those classrooms.
I'm going to help these kidsand I'm going to say, look, if I
can do it, you can do it.
And then I was told, maybedon't say that.
(10:53):
And it was that severalcomments, and I can't say it was
only in one school.
It wasn't only in one school,but it was several people in
several different, you knowsuperior roles who said it to me
and you know, not meaning to doreally much damage, but that
chips away at your confidence.
(11:14):
And so then I started having tohide it again.
I had to hide my dyslexia againand then I became really
conscious of it, especially asan English teacher, and I became
the head of English at a veryprestigious private British
school and I was really burnedout, really burned out, trying
(11:35):
to overcompensate all the timebecause I was petrified of
making one tiny little mistakein case anyone would discover
that I was dyslexic.
And that meant in meetings.
That meant you know, speakingto colleagues, that meant, you
know, with the kids.
(11:55):
Obviously it meantover-preparing and
over-preparing andover-preparing and burnout.
And so I completely lost myconfidence in that sense.
And now it's only now, later,that I've become really vocal
about it again and really own itagain that now I'm far more
comfortable and feel happierwithin myself, and I think a lot
(12:19):
of teachers would yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Why are schools asking teachers who are
neurodiverse to hide thatspecial part of them?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Well, they're not supposed to.
They're not supposed to becausewe're supposed to be I mean, we
are the people who are leadinginclusion.
We're supposed to lead from thefront.
We're supposed to be the onesthat are showing the kids
especially now in the last fewyears that we're showing the
kids that they have to embracetheir neurodiversity and build
(12:56):
their self-confidence and theirself-esteem and work on their
strengths and all of thosethings.
But it's not socially acceptablewithin the education sector to
be neurodiverse, which is justirony in itself.
But apart from that, it's alsoit's a bit silly because there
are many, many neurodiverseteachers.
(13:16):
We just don't know about themofficially because they won't
say it.
And schools are asking teachers.
I suppose, or in my experienceand I can talk about my own
experience and I know from otherpeople who other teachers who
have approached me after I'vebeen training in schools, the
same that they're not surewhether to talk about it or not.
(13:36):
And that really is down to theschool and the school is
thinking about what are theparents going to say?
What are they going to say?
Well, that's a good question.
It depends on the parents,because if you have parents who
are well-educated and whounderstand neurodiversity, who
(13:59):
understand the importance ofinclusion, who understand that
within the classroom, their kidsare possibly the neurodiverse
kids, which means that they mayalso be as well.
And then also you have kids whoare not considered neurodiverse.
And I don't like as wediscussed one other time I don't
like the term neurotypical,because nobody is neurotypical.
(14:20):
Our brain is like ourthumbprint and so we're all
unique.
We all learn in different waysand our brains are all
influenced in different ways,but within the classroom we're
always if parents are aware that.
You know, kids working togethercan really bring a lot to a
team.
When you have lots of differenttypes of ways of thinking, you
(14:42):
know that isn't just within thekids, it has to also be for the
teachers.
What amazing strengths canneurodiverse teachers bring to
the classroom?
Or should I say, do bring tothe classroom already?
Yeah, you know, and one of thereasons that schools will do
that is because they're afraidof the parents, and the parents
(15:03):
may need education andunderstanding and knowledge
about neurodiversity and tounderstand how this is not
something taboo, it's notsomething that's, you know,
going to go away, it's notsomething that isn't there
already that we have to bring inand accept.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
It's something that is there already, but it is
something that we have to acceptand become more open to thing
that we have to accept andbecome more open to, and I
wonder what the school's part isin creating that education for
parents.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
It's a really important part.
But I think before you start toeducate parents, you must
educate senior leadership.
You must have a certain amountof understanding within
leadership of why it'sbeneficial to do this within the
(15:56):
culture of the school and alsoto understand how creating a
culture within the school whichis truly, truly inclusive, then
you will have teachers that willbe able to be more open.
You'll have teachers that willbe that will have better
well-being, which then tricklesdown to the students having
(16:17):
better well-being.
And then when students havebetter well-being, parents have
better well-being, as we allknow, as parents also.
But when you have directors andsenior leadership who are
really on board and reallycreating that culture within the
school, and then you teach thekids and the kids quite often
(16:44):
teach the parents, let's behonest.
They go home and teach theparents Then they're in a better
position to be able to workwith the community of the school
and to bring about trueinclusion, where everyone is
really accepted for who they areand what needs that they may
have, and that that's okay tohave some certain needs met and
adjusted, yeah, I'm thinkingabout our context of Middle East
(17:07):
schools, especiallyinternational private schools,
and the facade of perfectionthat they give out to the public
that it will take an actualmassive paradigm shift to get
them to be able to change thenarrative around the school.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Because when the schools talk about inclusivity,
they really aren't talking aboutthe staff.
I have to be honest this isjust my opinion.
They're talking about theprovisions they can make for
students.
What if they could advertisetheir inclusivity of staff?
What would that do?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
If they could well.
First of all, I think I thinkyou know what would that do for
the kids in the school.
I think that's a, that's a abetter way to look at it,
because we are expecting ourkids to, as I say, to embrace
their neurodiversity, tounderstand others'
(18:07):
neurodiversity and why they needcertain provisions.
You know you quite often havekids ask, for example well, why
do they have extra time inprivate I'm speaking about
private international schools?
Well, why do they have extratime?
Well, why do they have this?
And you know the answer quiteeasily.
And what I used to say and whatI recommend teachers to say is
well, why does someone need apair of glasses?
(18:30):
You know, just to level theplaying field, and it's the same
thing.
Ok, so I lost the train ofthought.
There's my dyslexic moment foryou.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, we were saying what would that do if schools
were to say, in our school weare not only inclusive for
students needs, we're inclusivefor staff's needs as well.
Um, we include neuro diversestaff on purpose on our staff
body and we celebrate them.
(19:00):
What would that do?
And you said that would dowonders for the students.
But I think it would do wondersfor them because everything is
driven by the bottom line herewhere OK, is it good for profit,
is it good for getting studentenrollment up?
I think it is.
If you say you have a diversestaff body.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Because that's where I was leading, I believe.
So that's where I was leading,I believe.
If you have students who feelhappier in school and understand
things better and are morecomfortable, then you have
parents who are happier.
And when you have parents whoare happier, then they're
telling other parents to youhave to bring your kid to my
school because they're having agreat education, they're so
(19:47):
comfortable, they're so happyand they're moving forward and
they're sharing strengths.
Also, when you look atcompanies like Google and
Microsoft and NASA, who have 50%of their employees who are
neurodiverse, you have MI6, 60%of their employees are
neurodiverse.
Why are these companies lookingfor neurodiverse people?
(20:11):
They're looking forneurodiverse people because of
the strengths that they bring tothe job.
Now, that does not mean thatall neurodiverse people can go
and get a job at NASA, but itdoes mean that certain strengths
are recognized.
What strengths are recognizedwithin the education sector?
I mean some of the most amazingteachers that I have seen, who
(20:34):
take kids out of the classroom,who do the most craziest lessons
, and you think, wow, that'samazing and the kids love them.
They are usually autistic ordyslexic, they're ADHD.
There's something else thatthey will after a little bit of
conversation that they will tellyou, especially when you're
(20:54):
open with them.
And so it's those types ofactivities and teachers that
bring so much to the classroom.
And when teachers are able totalk about their neurodiversity
and share that with the kids,not only does it help the
well-being of the students, ithelps the well-being of the
teachers.
And then you have teacherretention, which means we don't
(21:17):
have to keep trying to find newteachers.
Think of how much it costs forHR to advertise, to go through
interviews, all of thosedifferent things, the whole
onboarding process.
If we were just to retain theteachers we have, wouldn't it be
so much better for the schoolon the bottom line, as you say?
(21:39):
So you have many differentaspects.
You have teachers that wouldfeel comfortable coming to your
school because they know thatthey're going to be accepted for
who they are and their needsare going to be met, but they're
also going to be able to justbreathe and do their job and do
it well.
And then you also have parentsthat are going to be telling
(22:00):
other parents you've got to getyour kids to come to our school
because they love it and they'relearning from all these
different teachers who think inall different ways.
You know, not just your classic, and so it's all bringing so
much more to the classroom andoutside of the classroom as well
.
So, like I said, there's manydifferent ways that this can
(22:22):
really help not just the bottomline, but the whole culture of
the school and, yes, it issomething that we need to think
about how to bring it forward.
But the uae are leadinginclusion at the moment.
If anyone can do this, it's theuae.
(22:42):
The inclusion policy in the uaeat the moment is second to none
.
It is second to none andthere's huge changes being made
in the UK, or at least beingsuggested, being proposed at the
moment, which is fantastic, andI spoke about this the other
day as well.
But I think it's reallyimportant for people like the
(23:03):
ministers in the UK to look atthe UAE and say and in North
America, to look at the UAE andsay, well, what are they doing
and how are they doing this?
Because it is second to none.
It is completely up to datewith all of the most recent
research.
But the one thing that's missingis the teachers.
(23:25):
How can we have true inclusionif we don't include the teachers
?
Because the kids are watching,the kids are looking at the, and
you know from being a teacher,as same as I do, that the kids
are looking at the teacher andthey're thinking what you've
just taught me you're autistic,or you're dyslexic, or you're
(23:47):
dyspraxic, and they know.
Or you're autistic, or you'redyslexic, or you're dyspraxic
and they know, or you're ADHD.
And so why are you notadmitting it then?
Why are you not talking aboutit?
But I'm supposed to, sosomething's missing.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, A school listens to this podcast and
wants to start the journey oftrue inclusion, which includes
the staff.
What do they do?
What can they do?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
First of all, they get in touch with Empowering
Creative Minds and we help them.
Yeah, but that's exactly whatthey do.
But the second of all they mustfirst of all look at sitting
down with management, withmanagement.
It must start from from, fromabove.
It can't start from the bottom,because there is already a lot
(24:35):
of knowledge about inclusion ata classroom level.
Now there needs to be more.
We need more training and andthat's a lot of things that we
can provide.
But it has to start at the top,because it's at the top that
need to change the culture ofthe school in order to make the
environment one which teachersare able to Step forward, be
(25:00):
brave and know that their careeris not at risk, not going to
lose their job, they're notgoing to be passed over for
promotion, they're not going tolose their job, they're not
going to be passed over forpromotion and they're not going
to have criticisms.
They're not going to be lookedat in a different way or treated
differently.
They need to create thatculture and that starts with
education education for slt, forunderstanding how to build this
(25:25):
and make it sustainable overtime.
Not just a fad, not just a tickbox, a CPD session no, it has
to be something which is seriousand builds through the core and
the values of the school, andthat must also be incorporated
within the policy and have thata policy level.
And so inclusion should bewithin policy as well, but not
(25:48):
just for the teachers or notjust for the students, sorry for
the teachers.
So that would also look at howare you onboarding your teachers
?
What does your interviewprocess look like?
We worked with a school here inSpain last year about exactly
this.
In a neurodiverse friendlyschool, how are you onboarding
(26:08):
your teachers?
How are you expecting theteachers to to come through an
interview process and be openabout the neurodiversity if it's
not very neurodiverse friendly?
And then, of course, you canwork on ways to make things
accessible within the school, soputting in provisions that
everyone has access to.
(26:29):
You don't have to beneurodiverse to access them.
You can also access them ifyou're not considered
neurodiverse.
But I think we all are a littlebit neurodiverse in different
ways anyway.
So that would be some of theways, but definitely you would
start at the top.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah.
So my last question, before wetalk about how people can
connect with you, is what isyour hope?
Because the work you do is suchhard work.
You know you're championingsomething that is not the
easiest to champion, so what'syour hope?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
that's a really good question.
That is a really good question.
It's actually, I'd say it's,more than a hope.
It's.
It's my dream, it's my passion,it is my motivation.
What is it that I want toachieve?
What is it that I want to see?
I find I find, when I talk aboutthis, people some different
comments, that people say to meand they ask me this question
and they say but do you thinkthe world is ready for this?
And my answer is well, itdoesn't matter if the world is
(27:37):
ready or not.
We are neurodiverse teachersand we're here Right.
So my dream, what I intend toachieve, or at least start the
ball rolling for in my lifetime,is that every teacher within a
school will be comfortableenough sitting around in a
(28:00):
meeting and say you know what Idon't want to take the notes,
you take the notes.
I'm dyslexic and when someonewatches me writing I get really
nervous.
Do you mind doing that?
Or do you mind if I take thenotes on the computer, because
it just takes that pressure awayfrom me a little bit?
Or where, for example, anautistic teacher, a brilliant
(28:23):
autistic teacher, doesn't leavebecause they can't have very
small provisions made for them?
I want to see schools retainingamazing teachers who are leaving
schools in the droves at themoment because they don't have
the right provisions.
(28:43):
I want to see our kids lookingat the teachers and saying, well
, if they can do it, I can do it.
If she can stand up there andteach, imagine what I can do.
You know.
So that for me, and more wouldbe, I would love my child to
come home from school and saymommy, you know my teacher's
(29:05):
dyslexic too.
I mean my daughter's wellversed in dyslexia because I
talk about it all the time.
But for her to come home andtalk about it and talk about the
strengths and talk about it inthis way, from about a teacher
in the school, that would bevery empowering.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, it's definitely a good dream, mission, vision,
hope, however you want todescribe it.
Shauna schools are listeningfrom across the middle east and
even beyond.
How can they reach you?
Speaker 3 (29:36):
well, they can reach us on our website.
We have a wonderfully newwebsite and just been revamped,
and that iswwwempoweringcreativemindscom.
You can reach me at Shona atempoweringcreativemindscom and
also at admin atempoweringcreativemindscom.
(29:57):
I can put some of this in theseare.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I will link in the notes so that we can share them
as well.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
We also have the phone number as well the work
phone number if you need that.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Superb, superb.
Have the phone number as wellthe work phone number, if you
need that.
Superb, superb.
This is such a great topic andI am so grateful to you for
being so open, so vulnerable andsharing on the podcast.
I'm sure it's going to be thestart of a very interesting
conversation around inclusivityin our staff body people not
just in our student body, but inour staff body.
Thank you for being on thepodcast, shona.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for inviting me.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
Visit our websiteteachmiddleeastcom and follow us
on social media.
The links are in the show notes.
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