April 20, 2025 • 25 mins
Tyronne shares his journey from actor to educator, creating a leadership legacy focused on respect, creativity, and empowerment that transforms both student learning and staff development.
• Started career as an actor before finding his calling in education after a supply teaching job
• Created a school culture centred on respect with simple practices like emphasising "please" and "thank you"
• Developed ESCA pedagogy (Exploring, Sharing, Connecting, Affecting, Innovating) to promote self-directed learning
• Balances top-down direction with bottom-up empowerment to maintain vision while honouring professional creativity
• Distinguishes between temporary compliance-driven improvements and lasting cultural change
• Uses staff voice mechanisms while analysing non-participation as an indicator of organisational health
• Advocates for reverse mentoring, pairing new teachers with senior leaders for mutual benefit
• Recommends maintaining family support networks, documenting positive moments, and continuously seeking growth
• Suggests creating an ongoing impact list rather than waiting until CV updates to recognise achievements
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi Tyrone.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Very well, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm doing great because I have the opportunity
to speak to you today.
Give me a sense of yourleadership journey today.
The theme today is leadingforward leadership legacy.
Just to set the scene on whatbrought you to leadership and
where are you now in your ownleadership.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I started my career as an actor and soon after being
in the profession, I had a realpassion for it.
I loved performing.
I went for a period where Ihadn't worked for a few months,
which is not unusual for anactor, but what that did is it
gave me a need to find somethingthat could keep me going in
(00:45):
that absence, and what I foundwas a job in a school as a
supply teacher.
And everything changed that daybecause after the first day,
students came to me and theysaid sir, that was a great
lesson.
You helped me learn abouthistory in an interactive way.
Were you coming back?
And that's when I thought thisis for me.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Was it that moment it was that moment Everything
changed.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I then embarked on a teacher program to get qualified
teacher status and then I leftthe acting profession behind me.
I severed ties with my agent,which was much to everyone's
surprise, and I just went for it.
Really, I think I was very muchmotivated to just support
students to make progress, tohave great engaging lessons, and
(01:31):
then that translated to greatoutcomes.
It was set out to get for myclass 99% grade A stars or A's.
That wasn't the mission, it wasjust to do a good job.
And then, when that wasrealized, it was fantastic.
And suddenly my head teacherstarted to say can we have other
teachers come into yourclassroom?
Can other people learn from youand watch?
(01:52):
And that's what happened.
And then that enabled me tomove beyond drama and I oversaw
initial teacher training andmentoring across an alliance of
nine schools and that gave me areal thirst for leadership
generally.
And then, ever since then, mycareer has just moved forward
with that kind of pursuit to dobetter by students.
But now my focus is a lot onadults and leading through them,
(02:15):
and I hope that my legacy whereleadership is concerned is
about the growth and empowermentof others and the importance of
what can work well for studentscan work well for adults.
Just as we have pedagogy at ourforefront for students, the
pedagogy behind how you developadults is also crucial,
(02:36):
particularly in the climate thatwe're in amazing that's.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I didn't.
We didn't speak about yourjourney prior to being on camera
, so I'm like this isinteresting.
So, speaking of that, takingstock of everything that you've
said about your slightlyalternative path to the sector
and to school leadership I'vegot our conversation cards here.
Which aspects of your school'sculture would you most want to
(03:03):
persist beyond your tenure?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I think one of them is the school culture around
respect.
When I first joined my school,I loved it Cotter School for
Girls.
It was amazing, but werecognised that the students
weren't seeing the best of themwhen it comes to that value of
respect, which is one of ourvalues.
Now I think as a school we arevery much focused on respect.
(03:28):
Everywhere you go we havesignage that says we say please,
we say thank you.
It's a small thing, but I wouldlove to see that aspect of the
culture which I don't think Inecessarily led on, but I think
I contributed, working with theteam, pointing out that it was
something that we needed.
I think the respect culture forstudents and for staff.
(03:49):
I think it's about that cultureof staff development and sort
of continual drive forimprovement, being a
collaborative.
That's less about leader says,teacher follows, and more about
us moving along together.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So student agency a little bit of teacher agency,
absolutely Kassay, it's a lot ofempowerment.
Would you say it's top-down,bottom-up empowerment, or both?
Or strategically selected.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, I think.
Yeah, that's a good question.
I think it's probably a bit ofeverything.
I think there needs to be anelement of top down, even though
just to use that language goesagainst what I believe but there
does need to be that directionwhere it's as a school, this is
what we are working to, becausemany middle leaders or teachers
(04:38):
require that direction, butsomeone to say that this is what
we're working to, face onceyou've got those colleagues
clear on the vision, you've gottheir buy-in, so they're aligned
, but then it's likerelinquishing that and it's okay
.
What does that look like inenglish?
What does that look like inyear seven?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
what does that look?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
like in history, and that is when it's okay.
Step back just as you would ina classroom where you give that
direct instruction and now it'sover to you to have that first
knowledge and next, or to decidehow that outcome is realized
and expressed, because that'swhat's kept me in education that
ability to be creative.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
If I didn't have that as an early career teacher, I
don't know if I would still behere, so so interesting that
often and I've seen this a lotthose who have a creative spirit
tend to inspire educators morethan if they are very logical
and very systematic.
Because I think humans, thehuman spirit, by the very nature
(05:38):
of it, has an affinity tocreativity.
We all are.
We find wonder in art.
We find wonder in watching apiece of drama.
We get immersed into it and ourimaginations arise, like
reading a really fantastic book.
We get sucked into this world.
That only we really.
(05:58):
It's our interpretation of it.
It's very personal.
I've always found and I'm justremarking on it out loud that
leaders who manage to capturethe imaginations hearts, minds,
but imaginations too of people,small people, big people tend to
have a better impact.
So if you're creative, use yourcreative spirit at work as well
(06:21):
as otherwise.
So, speaking of actuallyactually, this leads me nicely
into this question how do youensure your legacy encompasses
both academic excellence andcharacter development?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I'm very proud of about it's going on 10 years now
but there was educationalreform and we were clear that we
were moving away from A stars,a's and B's to 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4,
3, 2, 1.
I teach drama, so for drama,one of the implications was that
(06:55):
drama teachers would no longerbe able to direct students in
readiness for devised theatre.
Now that made me panic, becauseeverything that had happened up
until then was because I wouldbe directing students.
You should use this accent,let's use our toe and let's have
a good Tuskegee and use somespiritualism here.
(07:17):
So I was thinking how will Iget my students to that same
height if I'm not directing them?
I turned my problem into amaster's and I did a master's in
self-directed learning and Icreated a pedagogy called ESCA
exploring, sharing, connecting,affecting and innovating and the
(07:38):
idea is I planned lessonsfollowing that.
So the beginning of the lessonwould be explorative and it
would be sharing and connecting,because my aim was, if I can
get students to learn in thisway, I can support them to hit
the criteria without medirecting them.
And I think that would be mylegacy in terms of how I merged
(07:59):
academics and character, becausethe idea is everyone in my
classroom was an explorer.
Everyone in my classroom wasempowered to share.
Everyone in my classroom was anexplorer.
Everyone in my classroom wasempowered to share.
Everyone in my classroom wasencouraged to have a strong
connection to the character andthe emotions and the context.
So to me it was about apersonal development slash,
academic success and that waswhat was most important to me
(08:22):
and for my learners.
And what I don't say enough isI still utilize that pedagogy
when I'm working with staff, butI'm just not so explicit about
that.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So you took me back to 2003, which is quite a long
time ago, where I was in aclassroom where I naively to a
degree naively was like reallytrying to make these children
passionate about fractions,passionate about it.
We had food, we were cutting itup.
I was on a teacher firstprogram in East London and I had
(08:56):
the kind of mentor teacher whois known for being quite
authoritarians come to me andsay did they meet the objectives
?
She was mentoring me.
It's okay, that was her style,but did they meet the objective?
Could they do it or not?
And I was like no, I was makingthem love it.
I was making them lovefractions before I made them do
it.
And I think that's moreimportant than just getting them
(09:17):
to do question one, two, three,four, five and when they truly
love it love why I love it orlove why they love it they'll
then be able to have theconfidence to tackle any
question, it doesn't matterwhich one.
And I saw this kind of weirdlook in her eye that was like,
is she crazy or is she brilliant?
(09:40):
I can't tell.
She just went and then said,whatever, just make sure they're
ready for the test.
I can't tell.
She just went and then saidwhatever, just make sure they're
ready for the test.
So it was very weird to be in asituation because I was treated
like an extra pair of hands inthat school.
The outcomes were there, so shethen left me alone Because the
outcome was there.
I was then allowed to do justwhatever you're doing, just make
(10:00):
sure that they're ready.
So it was interesting to be inthat circumstance with someone
who is outcomes driven, highstakes etc.
Doesn't understand the methodin your madness, but then says,
okay, if they don't get theresults, you're going to do it
my way right, but if you get the, results, then I'm going to
back up and let you carry on.
That's so wonderful so it'sinteresting that you took me
(10:21):
back to that moment, really,because you said that you had
this pedagogy self-directed andwhat's what rings true with both
stories is this concept ofloving what they're doing
absolutely, because I think whenyou're a school leader you do
have to be aware of.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Thank you for sharing that, because that's actually
inspired me further.
I'll come back to you okay, butwhen you're a school leader, you
do have to look at account, youdo have to look at
accountabilities, you do have tolook up off stage, you do have
to look at what the exam boardis looking for.
But you see, sometimes when youdo that, you identify things
that could be improved even inthose accountability systems.
So, for example, they talkabout strong curriculum
(11:00):
implementation being thatstudents know and remember more.
But as we're talking about, yes, there is that, but to what
extent is creating a love and apassion going to make the
students want to know andremember?
exactly and that is something Idon't think you can recite off,
but it's great that you managedto overturn your temporary
(11:20):
oppression actually I just sawit as well.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
A little C.
Yeah, I had a bit of a defiancewith it, but I just thought if
they love it and they understandit inside out, I don't need to
worry about the outcome.
Yeah, so I came with that kindof maybe slight naivety as a
young teacher, but I thinkthat's why it's important to
embrace and respect new recruits, because there's always a new
(11:48):
idea.
Reverse mentoring is somethingthat I very much advocate.
There's sometimes where pairingan ECT with a strategic school
leader and getting them tointeract and talk oh, this is
what I'm doing in my work, andthey say this is what I'm doing
in my work, and they're speakingas equals about their work.
Now how about you try what youtry?
(12:09):
And they're both talking abouttheir own roles, without needing
to go too in depth about whateach are doing, but inspiring
each other to do better in theirwork.
And reverse mentoring you canlook it up.
It's quite.
It's seen to have good outcomes, not just a nice to have, but
also being.
It opens doors to diverseperspectives and questioning and
thoughts that you hadn'tthought of at all.
(12:30):
Yeah, so it's a good tip.
We're up to number three okaywhat distinguishes a temporary
improvement from a lastingeducational legacy?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
wow, I think temporary improvement is usually
something that comes to me isusually a byproduct of kind of
an initiative that's we have toroll this out.
Yeah, we need to have everyonesmiling, and in every classroom
there's a like a road learninginitiative absolutely, and I
think that you.
It's usually not sustainedbecause it's not sustainable or
(13:06):
it's something that's beenrolled out without getting
people's hearts and minds tounderstand why they're doing it
Like compliance orientatedAbsolutely.
That's something that tends tobe temporary, but there's sort
of long lasting change.
I think usually comes about,yeah, when there's a culture
that people can buy it.
People understand why, but thenthere's a building of momentum.
I think that's a culture thatpeople can buy it, people
(13:26):
understand why, but then there'sa building of momentum I think
that's the thing that has been abig leadership lesson for me
more recently that you can rollout an initiative and in the
early stages you might not seethat compliance.
You might not go into everyclassroom and see that thing.
As time goes by, you suddenlysee a colleague of yours and
when they deliver their, they'reusing that theme as part of the
(13:49):
presentation, subtle shape, andyou're like, oh wow, the head
of safeguarding is now using theapproach, and then people pick
up on that and I think thatbuilding of momentum is probably
the thing that's more powerfuland therefore long lasting,
because it's something that'sprobably more profound, that
can't just be picked upinstantly.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
it needs to grow yeah , or where imitation is the
highest form of flattery, right?
Wow, I didn't expect thatsentence to come out of your
certain people who have a maybea viewpoint that's very rigid on
certain things, and then, overtime, three months of repeating,
of bringing through documents,and then you see a shift in
(14:31):
their perspective and then youhear them say things that they
wouldn't have said before.
It's very rewarding to seesomeone open their mind to new
ideas that perhaps you thoughtuncrackable.
So it is, there is fruition.
So if you're in the middle of aventure, an initiative, an
implementation, and you're notsure if the eggshell is going to
(14:51):
crack through, all the waysthat you're trying whether it's
through communication or cultureor from compliance or bringing
in new protocols if you'reconsistent, to embed those into
your school, you will see.
You will see there's light atthe end of the tunnel.
It takes time.
It takes time.
Yeah, how do you last one?
(15:11):
How do you incorporate diverseperspectives into strategic
decision-making in your school?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
So there's a couple of ways.
One forum is staff voice.
So I think it's really good tofrequently go out and see what
staff feel.
And then sometimes that's whereyou get the diversity of
opinion.
A recent example is we led sometraining and we had some
colleagues who were like amazing, that was fantastic, it was
(15:41):
helpful.
And then we had othercolleagues who felt the complete
opposite and when we readbetween the lines we realised
there is a happy medium.
Actually, both colleagues arenot wrong.
They both have what they bothfeel has merit.
So I think going for staffvoice can be a really powerful
way.
I think just listening so far inthe conference which has been
(16:01):
great, but the importance oflistening before leading is a
theme.
That's something that I'm takingaway from this.
So I think, just listening toeveryone's views but at the same
time not allowing that tocompletely sway you and take you
down another path, because tome that's where you can become
reactive and you're not leading.
(16:22):
So I think it is good to takeon board these diverse
perspectives, listen attentivelybut ultimately feeling
empowered as a leader tosometimes say actually both
parties, both sets of bothparadigms, both views are
warranted.
We can incorporate all of this,or actually on this occasion.
(16:43):
Whilst I recognise some peoplemay feel this way, for the good
of the students and the good ofthe school moving forward, we
will need to proceed with thisand what you can find is people
have a healthy respect for thatbecause, even if you haven't
necessarily taken on exactlywhat they said their diverse
opinion you have factored itinto decision-making and you've
(17:04):
shown them that what's happenedhas been an informed decision
and therefore they're alsoempowered to have contributed to
you arriving.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
With staff voice it's a bit of a tricky one, because
if the same voices are the oneswho are actually filling in a
staff voice and some choose toopt out, what happens is if
you're not tracking how manyvoices are actually speaking up
on a staff voice survey, if youhave 100 members of staff and 45
(17:33):
of them are filling in thesurvey 55 aren't, you've only
got a very loud, potentiallyloud set of voices who are
actually reporting, and out ofthose, some of them might have
an agenda, may or may not havean agenda for what they're
writing, and out of those, theremight be those who are have
(17:54):
collaborated to form aparticular opinion.
Absolutely so.
When we're analyzing staffvoice data, I'm always curious
as to who opted out and whatthat signals about our culture.
So whenever I'm brought in as aconsultant or as an advisor,
the first thing I do with staffvoice tip is what rate of
(18:16):
response do you get?
Because that says more aboutthe culture than the actual
feedback.
Because if people don't feelcomfortable to say what they
need from the work, the higherthe percentage of people feeling
they can voice it, they areempowered, whereas the lower the
(18:40):
number of people voicingthey've tried to voice before
maybe, and nothing happens.
So they're like I'm not evengoing to waste my time filling
in the form because nothinghappens anyway.
And then they don't.
So I would advise schoolleaders, look at the response
rates and very subtly see if youcan investigate in a very
empathetic, forward thinking andsupportive way why certain
people there might be somevoices clearly, why they didn't
(19:01):
participate.
Maybe they're already on theirway out, they've got another job
in september or they'redisgruntled about a certain
other thing and they're usingthe survey as a way to show
strike action or something.
But knowing how, what chunk ofyour staff are not voicing and
why, is a really good way ofrooting out root causes of key
(19:25):
issues, critical, criticalissues that maybe you're missing
.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
No, I think that's really well said.
That's some more leadershiplearning for me as well, and
that really informs you to makethat decision about which way to
proceed.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Well, maybe there's some sort of cross wires or
miscommunication or misalignmentbetween teams that we didn't
see blind spot.
So it helps to just create atrail, but, as I say, it's with
the intent to help, not with theintent to find out the culprit.
Or, if you go with that energy,they're just going to be shut
down anyway.
They won't be open to your.
(19:59):
They'll see it as aninterrogation.
Yeah, interesting.
Lastly, I'd like you tosummarize your, what you
mentioned, your legacy, your,the, the approach, your pedagogy
that you brought into that.
I'm going to ask you more aboutoff camera, the self-directed
learning, because what I didn'trealize and this is a side point
(20:20):
was that we probably couldlearn something about the
concept of direction from acting, could learn something about
the concept of direction fromacting, the director and then
the role, technical concepts ofdirection.
But I didn't even think of thatuntil you said it at this moment
, when we say self-directedlearning, right, I see the whole
(20:40):
technical expertise indirection that we maybe could be
tapping into in pedagogy andI'm sure there's someone already
out there doing that butthere's a thesis out there on it
already, but I want to furthermy knowledge of that.
So that's something I'm takingfrom this conversation.
But three words, please, ofwhat you would want to share
(21:02):
with a leader out there aspiringleader, someone who's leading
but not feeling like theirefforts are connecting.
Someone who maybe felt like Ifelt when I was told to get the
results in fractions.
Or someone who doesn't clickwith their leaders and managers.
A message for them that enablesthem to see themselves as a
(21:24):
leader today, tomorrow andmoving forward.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
That's a really big question.
I think family is important.
I think we can get all consumedand we can really just immerse
ourselves in work and that canbe great because it's passion
for many people.
But I think the importance ofhaving that family network
(21:53):
people that you can go to andget advice and seek comfort from
I think that is something thatis really important.
When you're having those dayswhere you're feeling like, can I
do this?
Just making sure that you openup your support network.
I think it's important tocapture the good things, yeah,
and be thankful for the goodthings.
So you know, if you are havingone of those days but you have
(22:16):
an interaction with someonethat's positive, capture that,
whether that's a note on yourphone, whether that is something
on your diary, because in thosemoments where you do feel a
little bit low, you can revisitthose and remember that smiling
face from that student in yearseven, that positive interaction
with that colleague in thestaff room.
(22:36):
And I think always look foropportunities to grow and keep
in mind that doesn't have to bein the linear, conventional
sense like next assistant head,then deputy.
That has a place, but so doesother growth For me.
It's coming here.
For me it's stepping out of mycomfort zone, out of the UK,
(22:57):
finding out about a wonderfulopportunity and a wonderful
conference, having the innerbelief that I'm going to just
put in an application and we'llsee.
I'm going to just try and seeif they'll accept me.
And then they did, and here Iam.
So I really think that it'simportant to look for ways to
grow Really.
Hopefully hold you in goodstead, but just keep going.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, well valued, amazing I actually have.
I don't wait to update my CV towrite down things that I've
achieved, because actuallysometimes I don't remember.
Like we go through life andhelp people do things and do
what's necessary, but for otherpeople viewing that, they would
(23:42):
actually see that as impactfuland we anyone may feel that's
just routine, I'm just doing itbecause I'm supposed to do, but
that in itself is impact.
So, where you mentioned writingit down, noting it down,
journaling or keeping a note,these are the personal things
that I feel like I've developedin.
This is the professional impactI've had, even as a note to
(24:05):
self, as you've said.
But don't wait till your CVneeds updating to start writing.
Make it overfill it with impactand then, when you are updating
it, you can remove and GPT itif you want to deep seek it,
whatever it is, and it will thensummarize it, those key nugget
points that across time, youmight forget.
(24:27):
So make an impact list, updateit directly on your CV and then
read it.
Sometimes, just read it.
Enjoy that.
You are making an impact.
Just be in the space of.
I am having an impact and Idon't need to feel lesser for
that, I think, is important, butif you have the drive to impact
(24:51):
the sector across time, youwill absolutely, you will you
will, and maybe it's a bump inthe road today.
Tomorrow it will be a ski liftto the top of Everest.
Thank you so much.
I'm really.
It's been like a journeythrough all different sectors.
I've really enjoyed theconversation that we've had and
(25:12):
I'm so glad you got on the planeand that you applied, because
we wouldn't have been able tohave this conversation.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you lovely to spend sometime.
Hi Tyrone.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Very well, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm doing great because I have the opportunity
to speak to you today.
Give me a sense of yourleadership journey today.
The theme today is leadingforward leadership legacy.
Just to set the scene on whatbrought you to leadership and
where are you now in your ownleadership.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I started my career as an actor and soon after being
in the profession, I had a realpassion for it.
I loved performing.
I went for a period where Ihadn't worked for a few months,
which is not unusual for anactor, but what that did is it
gave me a need to find somethingthat could keep me going in
(00:45):
that absence, and what I foundwas a job in a school as a
supply teacher.
And everything changed that daybecause after the first day,
students came to me and theysaid sir, that was a great
lesson.
You helped me learn abouthistory in an interactive way.
Were you coming back?
And that's when I thought thisis for me.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Was it that moment it was that moment Everything
changed.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I then embarked on a teacher program to get qualified
teacher status and then I leftthe acting profession behind me.
I severed ties with my agent,which was much to everyone's
surprise, and I just went for it.
Really, I think I was very muchmotivated to just support
students to make progress, tohave great engaging lessons, and
(01:31):
then that translated to greatoutcomes.
It was set out to get for myclass 99% grade A stars or A's.
That wasn't the mission, it wasjust to do a good job.
And then, when that wasrealized, it was fantastic.
And suddenly my head teacherstarted to say can we have other
teachers come into yourclassroom?
Can other people learn from youand watch?
(01:52):
And that's what happened.
And then that enabled me tomove beyond drama and I oversaw
initial teacher training andmentoring across an alliance of
nine schools and that gave me areal thirst for leadership
generally.
And then, ever since then, mycareer has just moved forward
with that kind of pursuit to dobetter by students.
But now my focus is a lot onadults and leading through them,
(02:15):
and I hope that my legacy whereleadership is concerned is
about the growth and empowermentof others and the importance of
what can work well for studentscan work well for adults.
Just as we have pedagogy at ourforefront for students, the
pedagogy behind how you developadults is also crucial,
(02:36):
particularly in the climate thatwe're in amazing that's.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I didn't.
We didn't speak about yourjourney prior to being on camera
, so I'm like this isinteresting.
So, speaking of that, takingstock of everything that you've
said about your slightlyalternative path to the sector
and to school leadership I'vegot our conversation cards here.
Which aspects of your school'sculture would you most want to
(03:03):
persist beyond your tenure?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I think one of them is the school culture around
respect.
When I first joined my school,I loved it Cotter School for
Girls.
It was amazing, but werecognised that the students
weren't seeing the best of themwhen it comes to that value of
respect, which is one of ourvalues.
Now I think as a school we arevery much focused on respect.
(03:28):
Everywhere you go we havesignage that says we say please,
we say thank you.
It's a small thing, but I wouldlove to see that aspect of the
culture which I don't think Inecessarily led on, but I think
I contributed, working with theteam, pointing out that it was
something that we needed.
I think the respect culture forstudents and for staff.
(03:49):
I think it's about that cultureof staff development and sort
of continual drive forimprovement, being a
collaborative.
That's less about leader says,teacher follows, and more about
us moving along together.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So student agency a little bit of teacher agency,
absolutely Kassay, it's a lot ofempowerment.
Would you say it's top-down,bottom-up empowerment, or both?
Or strategically selected.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, I think.
Yeah, that's a good question.
I think it's probably a bit ofeverything.
I think there needs to be anelement of top down, even though
just to use that language goesagainst what I believe but there
does need to be that directionwhere it's as a school, this is
what we are working to, becausemany middle leaders or teachers
(04:38):
require that direction, butsomeone to say that this is what
we're working to, face onceyou've got those colleagues
clear on the vision, you've gottheir buy-in, so they're aligned
, but then it's likerelinquishing that and it's okay
.
What does that look like inenglish?
What does that look like inyear seven?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
what does that look?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
like in history, and that is when it's okay.
Step back just as you would ina classroom where you give that
direct instruction and now it'sover to you to have that first
knowledge and next, or to decidehow that outcome is realized
and expressed, because that'swhat's kept me in education that
ability to be creative.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
If I didn't have that as an early career teacher, I
don't know if I would still behere, so so interesting that
often and I've seen this a lotthose who have a creative spirit
tend to inspire educators morethan if they are very logical
and very systematic.
Because I think humans, thehuman spirit, by the very nature
(05:38):
of it, has an affinity tocreativity.
We all are.
We find wonder in art.
We find wonder in watching apiece of drama.
We get immersed into it and ourimaginations arise, like
reading a really fantastic book.
We get sucked into this world.
That only we really.
(05:58):
It's our interpretation of it.
It's very personal.
I've always found and I'm justremarking on it out loud that
leaders who manage to capturethe imaginations hearts, minds,
but imaginations too of people,small people, big people tend to
have a better impact.
So if you're creative, use yourcreative spirit at work as well
(06:21):
as otherwise.
So, speaking of actuallyactually, this leads me nicely
into this question how do youensure your legacy encompasses
both academic excellence andcharacter development?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I'm very proud of about it's going on 10 years now
but there was educationalreform and we were clear that we
were moving away from A stars,a's and B's to 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4,
3, 2, 1.
I teach drama, so for drama,one of the implications was that
(06:55):
drama teachers would no longerbe able to direct students in
readiness for devised theatre.
Now that made me panic, becauseeverything that had happened up
until then was because I wouldbe directing students.
You should use this accent,let's use our toe and let's have
a good Tuskegee and use somespiritualism here.
(07:17):
So I was thinking how will Iget my students to that same
height if I'm not directing them?
I turned my problem into amaster's and I did a master's in
self-directed learning and Icreated a pedagogy called ESCA
exploring, sharing, connecting,affecting and innovating and the
(07:38):
idea is I planned lessonsfollowing that.
So the beginning of the lessonwould be explorative and it
would be sharing and connecting,because my aim was, if I can
get students to learn in thisway, I can support them to hit
the criteria without medirecting them.
And I think that would be mylegacy in terms of how I merged
(07:59):
academics and character, becausethe idea is everyone in my
classroom was an explorer.
Everyone in my classroom wasempowered to share.
Everyone in my classroom was anexplorer.
Everyone in my classroom wasempowered to share.
Everyone in my classroom wasencouraged to have a strong
connection to the character andthe emotions and the context.
So to me it was about apersonal development slash,
academic success and that waswhat was most important to me
(08:22):
and for my learners.
And what I don't say enough isI still utilize that pedagogy
when I'm working with staff, butI'm just not so explicit about
that.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So you took me back to 2003, which is quite a long
time ago, where I was in aclassroom where I naively to a
degree naively was like reallytrying to make these children
passionate about fractions,passionate about it.
We had food, we were cutting itup.
I was on a teacher firstprogram in East London and I had
(08:56):
the kind of mentor teacher whois known for being quite
authoritarians come to me andsay did they meet the objectives
?
She was mentoring me.
It's okay, that was her style,but did they meet the objective?
Could they do it or not?
And I was like no, I was makingthem love it.
I was making them lovefractions before I made them do
it.
And I think that's moreimportant than just getting them
(09:17):
to do question one, two, three,four, five and when they truly
love it love why I love it orlove why they love it they'll
then be able to have theconfidence to tackle any
question, it doesn't matterwhich one.
And I saw this kind of weirdlook in her eye that was like,
is she crazy or is she brilliant?
(09:40):
I can't tell.
She just went and then said,whatever, just make sure they're
ready for the test.
I can't tell.
She just went and then saidwhatever, just make sure they're
ready for the test.
So it was very weird to be in asituation because I was treated
like an extra pair of hands inthat school.
The outcomes were there, so shethen left me alone Because the
outcome was there.
I was then allowed to do justwhatever you're doing, just make
(10:00):
sure that they're ready.
So it was interesting to be inthat circumstance with someone
who is outcomes driven, highstakes etc.
Doesn't understand the methodin your madness, but then says,
okay, if they don't get theresults, you're going to do it
my way right, but if you get the, results, then I'm going to
back up and let you carry on.
That's so wonderful so it'sinteresting that you took me
(10:21):
back to that moment, really,because you said that you had
this pedagogy self-directed andwhat's what rings true with both
stories is this concept ofloving what they're doing
absolutely, because I think whenyou're a school leader you do
have to be aware of.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Thank you for sharing that, because that's actually
inspired me further.
I'll come back to you okay, butwhen you're a school leader, you
do have to look at account, youdo have to look at
accountabilities, you do have tolook up off stage, you do have
to look at what the exam boardis looking for.
But you see, sometimes when youdo that, you identify things
that could be improved even inthose accountability systems.
So, for example, they talkabout strong curriculum
(11:00):
implementation being thatstudents know and remember more.
But as we're talking about, yes, there is that, but to what
extent is creating a love and apassion going to make the
students want to know andremember?
exactly and that is something Idon't think you can recite off,
but it's great that you managedto overturn your temporary
(11:20):
oppression actually I just sawit as well.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
A little C.
Yeah, I had a bit of a defiancewith it, but I just thought if
they love it and they understandit inside out, I don't need to
worry about the outcome.
Yeah, so I came with that kindof maybe slight naivety as a
young teacher, but I thinkthat's why it's important to
embrace and respect new recruits, because there's always a new
(11:48):
idea.
Reverse mentoring is somethingthat I very much advocate.
There's sometimes where pairingan ECT with a strategic school
leader and getting them tointeract and talk oh, this is
what I'm doing in my work, andthey say this is what I'm doing
in my work, and they're speakingas equals about their work.
Now how about you try what youtry?
(12:09):
And they're both talking abouttheir own roles, without needing
to go too in depth about whateach are doing, but inspiring
each other to do better in theirwork.
And reverse mentoring you canlook it up.
It's quite.
It's seen to have good outcomes, not just a nice to have, but
also being.
It opens doors to diverseperspectives and questioning and
thoughts that you hadn'tthought of at all.
(12:30):
Yeah, so it's a good tip.
We're up to number three okaywhat distinguishes a temporary
improvement from a lastingeducational legacy?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
wow, I think temporary improvement is usually
something that comes to me isusually a byproduct of kind of
an initiative that's we have toroll this out.
Yeah, we need to have everyonesmiling, and in every classroom
there's a like a road learninginitiative absolutely, and I
think that you.
It's usually not sustainedbecause it's not sustainable or
(13:06):
it's something that's beenrolled out without getting
people's hearts and minds tounderstand why they're doing it
Like compliance orientatedAbsolutely.
That's something that tends tobe temporary, but there's sort
of long lasting change.
I think usually comes about,yeah, when there's a culture
that people can buy it.
People understand why, but thenthere's a building of momentum.
I think that's a culture thatpeople can buy it, people
(13:26):
understand why, but then there'sa building of momentum I think
that's the thing that has been abig leadership lesson for me
more recently that you can rollout an initiative and in the
early stages you might not seethat compliance.
You might not go into everyclassroom and see that thing.
As time goes by, you suddenlysee a colleague of yours and
when they deliver their, they'reusing that theme as part of the
(13:49):
presentation, subtle shape, andyou're like, oh wow, the head
of safeguarding is now using theapproach, and then people pick
up on that and I think thatbuilding of momentum is probably
the thing that's more powerfuland therefore long lasting,
because it's something that'sprobably more profound, that
can't just be picked upinstantly.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
it needs to grow yeah , or where imitation is the
highest form of flattery, right?
Wow, I didn't expect thatsentence to come out of your
certain people who have a maybea viewpoint that's very rigid on
certain things, and then, overtime, three months of repeating,
of bringing through documents,and then you see a shift in
(14:31):
their perspective and then youhear them say things that they
wouldn't have said before.
It's very rewarding to seesomeone open their mind to new
ideas that perhaps you thoughtuncrackable.
So it is, there is fruition.
So if you're in the middle of aventure, an initiative, an
implementation, and you're notsure if the eggshell is going to
(14:51):
crack through, all the waysthat you're trying whether it's
through communication or cultureor from compliance or bringing
in new protocols if you'reconsistent, to embed those into
your school, you will see.
You will see there's light atthe end of the tunnel.
It takes time.
It takes time.
Yeah, how do you last one?
(15:11):
How do you incorporate diverseperspectives into strategic
decision-making in your school?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
So there's a couple of ways.
One forum is staff voice.
So I think it's really good tofrequently go out and see what
staff feel.
And then sometimes that's whereyou get the diversity of
opinion.
A recent example is we led sometraining and we had some
colleagues who were like amazing, that was fantastic, it was
(15:41):
helpful.
And then we had othercolleagues who felt the complete
opposite and when we readbetween the lines we realised
there is a happy medium.
Actually, both colleagues arenot wrong.
They both have what they bothfeel has merit.
So I think going for staffvoice can be a really powerful
way.
I think just listening so far inthe conference which has been
(16:01):
great, but the importance oflistening before leading is a
theme.
That's something that I'm takingaway from this.
So I think, just listening toeveryone's views but at the same
time not allowing that tocompletely sway you and take you
down another path, because tome that's where you can become
reactive and you're not leading.
(16:22):
So I think it is good to takeon board these diverse
perspectives, listen attentivelybut ultimately feeling
empowered as a leader tosometimes say actually both
parties, both sets of bothparadigms, both views are
warranted.
We can incorporate all of this,or actually on this occasion.
(16:43):
Whilst I recognise some peoplemay feel this way, for the good
of the students and the good ofthe school moving forward, we
will need to proceed with thisand what you can find is people
have a healthy respect for thatbecause, even if you haven't
necessarily taken on exactlywhat they said their diverse
opinion you have factored itinto decision-making and you've
(17:04):
shown them that what's happenedhas been an informed decision
and therefore they're alsoempowered to have contributed to
you arriving.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
With staff voice it's a bit of a tricky one, because
if the same voices are the oneswho are actually filling in a
staff voice and some choose toopt out, what happens is if
you're not tracking how manyvoices are actually speaking up
on a staff voice survey, if youhave 100 members of staff and 45
(17:33):
of them are filling in thesurvey 55 aren't, you've only
got a very loud, potentiallyloud set of voices who are
actually reporting, and out ofthose, some of them might have
an agenda, may or may not havean agenda for what they're
writing, and out of those, theremight be those who are have
(17:54):
collaborated to form aparticular opinion.
Absolutely so.
When we're analyzing staffvoice data, I'm always curious
as to who opted out and whatthat signals about our culture.
So whenever I'm brought in as aconsultant or as an advisor,
the first thing I do with staffvoice tip is what rate of
(18:16):
response do you get?
Because that says more aboutthe culture than the actual
feedback.
Because if people don't feelcomfortable to say what they
need from the work, the higherthe percentage of people feeling
they can voice it, they areempowered, whereas the lower the
(18:40):
number of people voicingthey've tried to voice before
maybe, and nothing happens.
So they're like I'm not evengoing to waste my time filling
in the form because nothinghappens anyway.
And then they don't.
So I would advise schoolleaders, look at the response
rates and very subtly see if youcan investigate in a very
empathetic, forward thinking andsupportive way why certain
people there might be somevoices clearly, why they didn't
(19:01):
participate.
Maybe they're already on theirway out, they've got another job
in september or they'redisgruntled about a certain
other thing and they're usingthe survey as a way to show
strike action or something.
But knowing how, what chunk ofyour staff are not voicing and
why, is a really good way ofrooting out root causes of key
(19:25):
issues, critical, criticalissues that maybe you're missing
.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
No, I think that's really well said.
That's some more leadershiplearning for me as well, and
that really informs you to makethat decision about which way to
proceed.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Well, maybe there's some sort of cross wires or
miscommunication or misalignmentbetween teams that we didn't
see blind spot.
So it helps to just create atrail, but, as I say, it's with
the intent to help, not with theintent to find out the culprit.
Or, if you go with that energy,they're just going to be shut
down anyway.
They won't be open to your.
(19:59):
They'll see it as aninterrogation.
Yeah, interesting.
Lastly, I'd like you tosummarize your, what you
mentioned, your legacy, your,the, the approach, your pedagogy
that you brought into that.
I'm going to ask you more aboutoff camera, the self-directed
learning, because what I didn'trealize and this is a side point
(20:20):
was that we probably couldlearn something about the
concept of direction from acting, could learn something about
the concept of direction fromacting, the director and then
the role, technical concepts ofdirection.
But I didn't even think of thatuntil you said it at this moment
, when we say self-directedlearning, right, I see the whole
(20:40):
technical expertise indirection that we maybe could be
tapping into in pedagogy andI'm sure there's someone already
out there doing that butthere's a thesis out there on it
already, but I want to furthermy knowledge of that.
So that's something I'm takingfrom this conversation.
But three words, please, ofwhat you would want to share
(21:02):
with a leader out there aspiringleader, someone who's leading
but not feeling like theirefforts are connecting.
Someone who maybe felt like Ifelt when I was told to get the
results in fractions.
Or someone who doesn't clickwith their leaders and managers.
A message for them that enablesthem to see themselves as a
(21:24):
leader today, tomorrow andmoving forward.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
That's a really big question.
I think family is important.
I think we can get all consumedand we can really just immerse
ourselves in work and that canbe great because it's passion
for many people.
But I think the importance ofhaving that family network
(21:53):
people that you can go to andget advice and seek comfort from
I think that is something thatis really important.
When you're having those dayswhere you're feeling like, can I
do this?
Just making sure that you openup your support network.
I think it's important tocapture the good things, yeah,
and be thankful for the goodthings.
So you know, if you are havingone of those days but you have
(22:16):
an interaction with someonethat's positive, capture that,
whether that's a note on yourphone, whether that is something
on your diary, because in thosemoments where you do feel a
little bit low, you can revisitthose and remember that smiling
face from that student in yearseven, that positive interaction
with that colleague in thestaff room.
(22:36):
And I think always look foropportunities to grow and keep
in mind that doesn't have to bein the linear, conventional
sense like next assistant head,then deputy.
That has a place, but so doesother growth For me.
It's coming here.
For me it's stepping out of mycomfort zone, out of the UK,
(22:57):
finding out about a wonderfulopportunity and a wonderful
conference, having the innerbelief that I'm going to just
put in an application and we'llsee.
I'm going to just try and seeif they'll accept me.
And then they did, and here Iam.
So I really think that it'simportant to look for ways to
grow Really.
Hopefully hold you in goodstead, but just keep going.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, well valued, amazing I actually have.
I don't wait to update my CV towrite down things that I've
achieved, because actuallysometimes I don't remember.
Like we go through life andhelp people do things and do
what's necessary, but for otherpeople viewing that, they would
(23:42):
actually see that as impactfuland we anyone may feel that's
just routine, I'm just doing itbecause I'm supposed to do, but
that in itself is impact.
So, where you mentioned writingit down, noting it down,
journaling or keeping a note,these are the personal things
that I feel like I've developedin.
This is the professional impactI've had, even as a note to
(24:05):
self, as you've said.
But don't wait till your CVneeds updating to start writing.
Make it overfill it with impactand then, when you are updating
it, you can remove and GPT itif you want to deep seek it,
whatever it is, and it will thensummarize it, those key nugget
points that across time, youmight forget.
(24:27):
So make an impact list, updateit directly on your CV and then
read it.
Sometimes, just read it.
Enjoy that.
You are making an impact.
Just be in the space of.
I am having an impact and Idon't need to feel lesser for
that, I think, is important, butif you have the drive to impact
(24:51):
the sector across time, youwill absolutely, you will you
will, and maybe it's a bump inthe road today.
Tomorrow it will be a ski liftto the top of Everest.
Thank you so much.
I'm really.
It's been like a journeythrough all different sectors.
I've really enjoyed theconversation that we've had and
(25:12):
I'm so glad you got on the planeand that you applied, because
we wouldn't have been able tohave this conversation.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you lovely to spend sometime.
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