October 19, 2025 • 41 mins
We sit down with Dubai College headmaster Tomas Duckling to explore how a top school stays kind, rigorous, and human. From Watford roots and boarding school leadership to distributed decision-making and no emails after hours, Tom shares how he protects culture while moving forward.
• DC’s calm culture, high standards, and strict boundaries on after-hours email
• From Brunei and Switzerland to Dubai: lessons from boarding and international schools
• Reputation, demand for places, and misconceptions
• Transitioning from deputy to head: decision-making and accountability
• Trusted autonomy and distributed leadership to grow future leaders
• Tradition with innovation: de-implementation to free teachers for learning
• Family life, music, travel goals, and simple joys that keep the balance
• Stoicism, humility, and values that shape leadership choices
• A turnaround framework: philosophy, people, process
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
You are listening to the Teach Middle East Podcast.
Connecting, developing, andempowering educators.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Hey hey everyone, Lisa Grace here, welcoming you
back to the Teach Middle Eastpodcast.
Today I have Tom Duckling.
Actually, he's Tomas.
You know a funny story.
I saw his name and I taught atTomas when I was teaching in
Enfield.
And that boy was trouble.
He was let's just say he Iremember him.
(01:03):
And if I remember him, he wasnot the easiest of students.
But I hope this um interviewwith Tom is gonna be different.
Welcome to the podcast, Tom.
SPEAKER_02 (01:13):
Thank you very much.
Yeah, I hope it wasn't me, allthose, yeah, but no.
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Were you in Enfield in the late 90s, early 2000s?
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
Uh I was, I mean, I was not in Enfield, but not far
away.
I was from Watford, so uh in andaround that area.
Yeah, not far away.
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
I taught in Waltham Cross.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
Okay, all right, nice.
There wasn't Waltham Cross, sogood.
There's a as nice another big uhbadly behaved Thomas in in town.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
Okay.
So Tom is the headmaster ofDubai College, one of the
region's leading not-for-profitschools.
Um, he took over from Mike.
Um, most of you might know MikeLambert.
I'm not sure if you guysremember prior to Mike, but he's
(02:04):
sitting in the principal's desk,and on this segment, we are
going behind the principal'sdesk to ask the questions that
many of you want to know.
These are the questions that wedon't normally get to ask head
teachers because it would comeoff as invasive, but I get the
privilege of asking thosequestions.
(02:25):
Dubai College is a specialplace.
I have lots of friends there.
Clive, no, Clive is not thereanymore.
Oops, sorry.
Um, Dee and the gang are stillthere, so shout out to them if
they listen to the pod.
Um, it's it's a really, reallynice school.
How have you been finding it?
SPEAKER_02 (02:42):
Uh I love it.
I love it.
It's I'm I'm so glad you startedwith that, actually, because
it's it, as you know, it's oneof the kindest, loveliest places
to be.
It's got a lovely atmosphere,it's got a lovely calm
atmosphere around, it's verygreen.
We've obviously got the campusfeel, kids are incredibly
polite.
Um, so it's yeah, it's anabsolute joy.
Uh, and that team are so good,they're so accomplished, they're
(03:07):
so intelligent.
Uh, it's uh been a realprivilege.
So, yeah, couldn't be happier,is my answer.
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
Welcome to, I know it's late to be saying welcome,
but welcome anyway.
Um, I'm I'm hoping you're havinga good time in the region.
I mean, you you just mentionedthe campus is green, but coming
from Switzerland, how have youfound the transition to the
desert?
SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
Uh, yeah, look, uh, Switzerland has its positives
and negatives as does Dubai.
Um, so Switzerland wasbeautiful, and we were obviously
up in the mountains and we're ina ski resort, but also it was a
very quiet place.
Uh, and as previously mentioned,you know.
So I'm from Watford originally,right up in the north part, or
the most north you can go inLondon.
(03:50):
Uh so it was very, very, veryquiet.
And before that, uh, my wife andI, we were in Borneo as well,
actually, in a country calledBrunei.
So we had two very rural, veryremote, uh wonderful schools,
absolutely fantastic,high-level, high-achieving
schools, uh, but in places thatwere very sleepy.
So we were as a family, we werereally ready for a fun change.
(04:12):
Um, and equally, I've got twolittle ones, a six-year-old and
a four-year-old.
And they are, you know, this isjust such a fun place to be when
you're a little kid.
So, yeah, really, really happy.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
What was it like growing up in Watford?
SPEAKER_02 (04:26):
It was fun.
I mean, I love Watford.
I was brought up by my dad.
Um, and you know, I went to kindof a state school that was
obsessed with football, andeveryone was obsessed by
football.
Um, and you know, it was uhthere was there were elements of
a bit rough and ready in thosedays.
That was before people had it aspart of the community uh
commuter belt, which it is now.
So when I go home to Watford, Idon't really recognise it.
(04:48):
Um, but yeah, largely a lot offun.
Uh it was funny if I was talkingto someone about this this week
about um about children andcontact and safety.
And you know, the one of thethings I remember most was just
you had an in time, that was it.
You know, you had a curfew, youhad an in time, and that was it.
And just just you know, cyclingaround Watford on a BMX, uh
(05:11):
playing football with differentareas all around it was uh yeah,
a really happy time.
And I've still got uh very, veryclose friends uh there.
So yeah, I've very fond ofWatford, a massive Watford
football fan uh as well.
So I was a season ticket holderthere for the best part of 20
years or so before I wentinternational.
So uh yeah, very fond of it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
Yeah, I was just about to ask you which team you
support.
Do you support Watford?
SPEAKER_02 (05:35):
Yeah, well, I was born in Watford General
Hospital, which backs in uh overWatford General uh Watford
Football Club, Vickerage Road.
Uh and so yeah, big, always beena big Watford fan, so never
really had uh any otherallegiance.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
Yeah, the thing is, Watford, Watford has really come
up.
When I was a young girl, peoplefrom our area would move to
Watford because the houses werecheaper than Tottenham, um, and
it would have been consideredout of London, and but now
Watford has made a um a 360.
(06:09):
You can't buy anything inWatford now.
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
Do you know what's really fascinating actually?
So my family originally comesfrom Walthamstow in East London.
So, and of course, Watford wasset up as many places were as
satellites post-the blitz.
So uh it's quite interestingwhen you meet people from Essex.
I've lost most of my accent now.
Um, but my my accent when I wasa bit younger, right?
Hello, mate, how are you doing?
Playing a bit of football.
Uh so it Watford accent is very,very similar to Essex accent,
(06:34):
but because both both arepost-war council setups that
were put up after the blitz, sothere's a very similar kind of
East London twang to it.
Um, and it's it's interestingthat I say, as East London has
become incredibly uh expensivenow as well, and now Watford is
similar sort of thing.
So yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
Grew up with your dad.
What was that like?
SPEAKER_02 (06:57):
My dad's a legend.
Uh he's a very, very, very funnyman.
Um, he's uh yeah, he's a goodcharacter.
So he brought me up uh from fromvery young, and then my later on
uh my stepmother uh arrived, soreally great.
And my house was uh the centreof a lot of fun, actually.
Always really loads of peoplecame around, lots of parties,
were welcome at the house.
(07:17):
It's the kind of the centre ofthe family.
So Christmas is with kind of 25people round you all round
tables and that sort of stuff.
So uh, you know, everyonechipping in and that sort of
stuff.
So yeah, my dad's uh a greatman, real hero of mine.
Uh but he's yeah, he's got asense of humor, uh, it's fair to
say.
Siblings, sister, yeah, oldersister, uh who I love dearly,
(07:40):
uh, still living in the UK.
SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And so growing up with your dad,obviously, you didn't have I
would I would I I would supposeyou didn't have that
conventional mom-dad family fora while.
What was that like in school?
So you have to go to school andyou're only with your dad.
Was there any any link betweenthe two?
(08:03):
Did you suffer any, you know,consequences of that?
SPEAKER_02 (08:07):
Do you know what it's a funny, it's a funny
scenario.
It's a really interestingquestion because I I I had when
I was in my school, which I saidwas just a pretty rough and
ready state school, uh, I wasconsidered quite posh.
Um, and when I went touniversity, they kind of
everyone thought I was reallycommon and they they thought I
was from East Enders orsomething like that.
(08:27):
And the reason that's quiteimportant is my dad, what he
prioritized was stuff.
So he was really hardworking, hehe worked long hours, so I had
to often get myself to schooland etc.
etc.
All those sort of independencepieces, blah blah.
Uh, but what he prioritized waskind of uh, for want of a better
word, cultural literacy and umcultural knowledge.
(08:48):
So we we went to the theatre alot.
My dad took me to the opera,took me to the ballet, he took
me to museums on a regularbasis.
We went what to Watford matches,home and away.
It sounds I was sounds stupid,but going to away matches, I
learned to read a map andnavigate in the days before Tom
Fell.
So I had a really goodunderstanding of the country,
really good understanding ofdifferent cultures.
(09:09):
Um, so actually, it was for me,it was dual benefit.
I said my where my school washad a lot of feeders from a lot
of different um kind ofsocioeconomic backgrounds, but I
was you know, I was consideredone of the the posha kids.
But going to the theatre waskind of what how you why are you
going to the theatre?
Who does that?
So I'm very grateful for my dadfor all that he did there.
It was a really, really goodthing to have done and had a
(09:30):
massive impact on my well, myappreciation of the world and
and love of education and andfurther.
So yeah, great.
SPEAKER_01 (09:37):
Why do you think he did that?
Why do you think he wasdeliberately exposing you to
those cultural things?
SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
I think when you're a parent, you look for something
in common, right?
So and I I don't think I so mypar my kids have just got
obsessed with Pokemon, and I'vebeen obsessed.
So we now watch Pokemon, we drawPokemon, they've got the
figures, they've got the tradingcards.
Um, and as of dad, I sometimes II've always found play
difficult.
When they're younger, I kind oflike, let's play, but let's play
(10:10):
shots, and that sort of stuff.
And so Pokemon's been reallygood for me this summer to have
something that I can kind ofwork with them, talk with them,
I can draw with them, and thatsort of stuff.
So I think really uh I did askhim at this once.
I think he just wanted somethingto do that was good for him and
good for me.
SPEAKER_01 (10:27):
So now you are a dad of two young children.
Yeah.
What are you doing todeliberately spend time with
them?
SPEAKER_02 (10:37):
Well, I have to say that's been one of the real
benefits of Dubai.
Um, because previously my schoolwas a boarding school, um, and
boarding education has enormouspositives.
It's a massive privilege to workin a boarding school for people
to trust you with their childrenall the time uh is a significant
uh level of trust and asignificant responsibility.
(10:57):
Uh, but I was super busy in aboarding school, I was so, so
busy.
Um, so in terms of deliberatelyspending time, whilst obviously
being head of Dubai College isnot without challenge and long
hours, um, fundamentally I'mspending so much more time with
my kids.
Just Dubai has been brilliantfor that.
Just even the culture here, uhactually, DC's got a brilliant
(11:17):
culture, which is we aretotally, we do not have emails
outside of the school day.
So, and and so much so, even inmy first weekend, uh you already
mentioned D.
Um, I I sent an email on theweekend and she straight away
sent back, that's a no, we don'tdo that here.
And and I'm so glad she did, uh,because we don't, it's a really,
really fixed culture for givingpeople the space and time.
(11:40):
DC is a fast-paced, uh,high-level, high-quality
institution.
So when we're here, we're allworking really, really hard, um,
but we really protect that.
So now I'm very grateful as wellfor that.
So, what are you doing with thewith with your doing?
Uh at the moment, I said there'ssix and four.
So it's essentially Pokemon orwater slides, I would say that
my life is predominantly Pokemonor water slides.
(12:02):
Sometimes at the moment, walkingaround malls, you know, just to
get them out of the house in theheat.
So we've we've done quite a lotof uh you know, wandering
around, having a froyo, thatsort of thing.
So is your wife a teacher?
My wife is an English teacherhere at Dubai College, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Ah, what's it like being married to a teacher,
being the headmaster?
SPEAKER_02 (12:21):
Uh so we've only ever worked together.
Actually, Catherine had a uh hada previous career she worked in
media, uh, where she worked asan agent for celebrities and
that sort of stuff.
So she had a much more uhglamorous career prior, but then
she retrained and became ateacher.
So we've only ever workedtogether.
Uh so it's absolutely uh not aproblem at all.
It's something we really enjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
What is it with Dubai College?
Mike and Sarah, same, oh comeon, it's a pattern, isn't it?
But it's it's good, it's good.
So when you when you decided tomove to Dubai, what were some of
the things you were lookingforward to?
And did they did they meetexpectations?
SPEAKER_02 (13:04):
Uh what were they looking forward to?
I I think actually that I Imight, if I can, I can might
answer that differently.
Uh, I think the things whatsurprised me was better.
I mean, everything I was lookingforward to is here.
The students here are anabsolute privilege and enjoy it.
They are so uh kind of eloquent,but also adult and mature and
thoughtful.
(13:25):
And you know, talking to them islike talking to an expert at
times.
So the students here arefabulous.
The staff here have been sowelcoming to me, and they are
operating at such a high level.
So all of those things aregreat.
Um, I think, but Dubai, what Ididn't expect, I didn't, I
wasn't as aware as I possiblyshould have been of the
reputation of Dubai College.
And what I mean by that is it'san institution in Dubai.
(13:48):
Um, and I didn't quite realisewhat came with that, I guess, in
terms of so that was a bit of asurprise, sort of, you know, DC
is a big deal.
Um, and it just, you know, butthe minute you even mention it,
it kind of changes the natureand tenor of conversations in a
way perhaps previously, youknow, working in one school is
just you working in a school,you're a teacher.
(14:09):
Whereas the minute you say youwork at DC, uh, it has an impact
on things.
So that's probably the thingthat I was most surprised about.
But apart from that, the rest ofit I was kind of expecting and
it's delivered.
SPEAKER_01 (14:21):
Good impact, as in when you when you mention DC,
does it open doors or does itclose them, or what's the
impact?
SPEAKER_02 (14:30):
Uh both is the answer.
Is sometimes it opens them, andsometimes I guess it has people
have preconceived um perceptionsof DC.
I have said that's why I'mdelighted you started with it's
such a nice school.
Um, there are people who don'tthink that, right?
So people see our our results,which are, as you know, some of
the best results in the world,and they think it's going to be
a hot house, and they think it'sgoing to be a very uh aggressive
(14:53):
culture.
And it's and for those that havebeen here and seen it, they know
it's the complete opposite ofthat.
It's calm, it's kind, it'sthoughtful.
Uh, the opening doors thing, Iguess there's always that
element because of the matrix,because DC has this uniqueness,
and there's the original campuson the wall behind me, it has
this uniqueness of starting fromyear seven, therefore it has
this entry, right?
(15:13):
And because we, even this yearalone, 176 places, we had 850
applications.
That tension around that, Ithink, is probably the bit that
is both a positive, uh, but alsosometimes can lead to attention
and can lead to a difficult teamin conversations and how people
feel about it as well.
SPEAKER_01 (15:32):
So I'm gonna ask you a question that is not very
conventional.
So you were the deputy at EglenUm College in Switzerland, and
so you moved from deputy head toheadmaster at Dubai College
without previously being a head.
And I want to know for mylisteners what that transition
(15:55):
has been like, and how do youeven prepare for such a
transition?
SPEAKER_02 (16:00):
So uh I probably should provide a bit of context.
So, firstly, I had a fantasticmentor in my last role.
So, Nicola Sparrow is the headof um Airborn College, and she
and I worked together closelyfor nearly eight years, and she
allowed me incredible access tothe work that she did, and I I
mean I very much learnedalongside her.
So I modelled a lot of what I donow on her and watching how she
(16:23):
did things.
So, firstly, I had really,really good mentorship and
training.
Secondly, I would say thatagain, a boarding model is
slightly different.
So, because Eglon is quite aprestigious school, obviously
it's quite famously a veryexpensive school, it has a large
alumni network.
So, Nicola would travel quite abit.
So she travelled for periods oftime.
So there were also stretches oftime whereby I would be
(16:46):
essentially uh running elementsor large elements of the
day-to-day of the school.
So I, you know, as it was, Iline managed the academic side,
I line managed the operationalside, and I line managed the
boarding uh side as well.
So, in many respects, the remitof the role there was
significant and therefore helpedme.
I was afforded with a lot ofopportunities to get experience
(17:08):
for many of the decisions I haveto reach here.
However, what is the hardestbit, which you can't prepare
for, is that you've got nobodyelse to talk to.
That's that's the toughest bit.
Um, and what I mean by that,even in my first couple of
weeks, I remember just thatmoment where I picked up on the
fact that people are waiting forme to make the decision.
(17:29):
And I was so conditioned tohaving someone there to do that,
that there was probably areluctance or a lack of
awareness in certain times that,oh God, that's coming to me.
That's my decision.
And that's the bit you can'tcome to.
You know, in every scenariopreviously, whilst I had good
experience and lots and lots ofopportunities to uh lead change,
(17:50):
lead work with people, coachothers, all of that sort of
stuff I did previously.
I would always call Nicola andsay, right, is that the right
call?
And or very serious calls cameto her in this seat.
That comes to me now.
I've got a fantastic board.
Uh the chair of my board is isabsolutely outstanding and has
been again been you know takingan active role in looking to
help me.
(18:10):
Uh, but ultimately it's my headand it's my responsibility.
So that's the toughest bit.
Um, but you just need to listenwell, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Yeah.
Preparing the next set ofleaders, how how do you plan to
do that?
SPEAKER_02 (18:26):
So I I'm I'm someone quite a big believer in this.
I'm very different, and it hasbeen commented on.
Uh, I've got quite a differentleadership style in this.
I really do believe in uh, youknow, and I did I've done my
MBA.
Funnily enough, I did my MBAthrough UCL with Mike Lambert,
right?
And that's he and I met manyyears ago.
And, you know, the two the twowords I use from that, from
(18:48):
those leadership manuals andthat sort of stuff, uh, were
trusted autonomy and distributedleadership.
And I actually started here withthe staff and talked about those
two forms of leadership and whythey're important to me.
So I I do a lot of stuff ontrust.
I've got an amazing top teamhere.
And actually, sometimes I comeback to that thing.
Uh, Dylan William said, youknow, if you if you're a senior
(19:08):
leader and you want to leadchange in a school, get out of
the room.
And and it's not evasive ordelegation or trying to avoid
work, I assure you.
But I've actually spent quite alot of my time here getting out
of the room, trusting people todo that.
You know, I take responsibilityif something goes wrong, I'm
accountable, I will answer forit, and we will talk about the
mistake that's been made, and Itake responsibility for that,
(19:29):
but ultimately giving people thespace and support to make those
decisions.
That's how I develop leaders.
I I am a big believer thatwhilst of course you can do
courses, and whilst of courseyou can read leadership books,
and whilst of course you canreflect, I I'm a big believer in
that you learn by practice inleadership, and you've got to
sometimes make those mistakesand then be reflective enough to
(19:52):
grow from them as well.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
So uh this is my last question about your school,
because then I want to talkabout you.
But taking, I often say takingover an outstanding school is
harder than taking over a schoolthat requires improvement
because you can see what you cando from day one.
(20:14):
First of all, do you agree withthat or not?
Uh possibly, yes.
Then my second follow-upquestion to that is how do you
plan to move DC forward, havingtaken over such a reputable
institution that's alreadyoutstanding in many ways?
SPEAKER_02 (20:31):
Yeah, I think the first thing I would say is what
you judge outstanding and whatyou're trying to do.
So, you know, the fundamentalpoint there is that education is
moving around us as is society.
All right.
So education needs to beflexible and adaptive, as do the
young people that we are helpingto shape.
So there's lots and lots ofconversations to be had about
the future of education.
(20:52):
In terms of the outstandingpiece, I'm also on a kind of uh
strange mix of very, very proinnovation and making dynamic
moves forward, but alsotraditional, right?
I think there's a lot ofbenefits to long-term uh proven,
evidence, traditional learning.
Um, I think knowledge is veryimportant.
I think academic rigor is veryimportant.
(21:13):
So there's a maintenance piecethere as well.
I guess the bit I would say as aslight aside is I haven't felt
there's not work here to bedone.
And that's because, as well, PChas had lots and lots of systems
and structures uh that are aproduct of its length of time
and its tenure.
Uh and I've got work, I've gotexperience working in two very
(21:36):
high-achieving internationalschools within different
sectors.
So there have been quite a fewareas, I would say, that I've
been able to come in and say,look, there's an area to look at
this.
In addition, you know, one of mybig drives, again, Dylan
Williams work with Hattie andHamilton on de-implementation.
So I've talked a lot about staffabout de-implementation, because
as is a product of most schools,we see, especially as a busy
(21:58):
place, we've got systems on topof systems, we've got uh
structures that possibly couldbe more efficient, and as well
as that, we've got uh we havethe best part of 1300 very
high-achieving people in oneplace.
So one of the big things we'reactually looking at is how can
we make things more sustainable,de-implement to allow uh
learning to be the main focus.
(22:19):
So I don't feel there's not workto be done, but I look, there's
also, I think the bigger point Iwould say to you is not that
maintenance of outstanding, it'sit's about protection of the
culture and the community.
You know, were I the sort ofperson that came in and said,
I've been at other schools andthis is how it should be done, I
think I would have had a massiveissue.
I came into BC and I said, Iwant to learn about this school.
(22:41):
I love the story of this school.
I love that picture that I putup behind my desk.
Um, I love the fact, you know,our story of our origin, you
know, if we're going into our48th year, which makes it one of
the oldest schools uh in theMiddle East.
And particularly there, ofcourse, there's this pioneering
story of our founder, TimCharlton, who drove from London,
set up the school all the way,drove here all the way with the
(23:03):
Land Rover.
And we're looking at how we cancelebrate that.
So I'm I'm originally a historyand politics teacher, so I'm big
into traditions and I'm big intocelebrating that.
Uh and I, you know, when I camein, I met every member of staff
individually, and I just I justlistened.
So I hope that if you were tospeak to DC members of staff, we
recently celebrated our longtenure.
We had 77 members of staff thathave been here for over 10
(23:24):
years, including two members ofstaff that have been with us for
over 40 years, which you realizeis an enormous portion of the
school.
Yeah, this one.
The three members of staff thathave been in this school for
before I was born.
I I think we must be onto somesort of record in terms of the
amount of years worked inproportion to the amount of
years of the school.
So it's an astonishing um kindof proportion.
(23:47):
And it's so therefore there'ssuch deep love, such deep
commitment here, and it's beenmy role to celebrate that and
protect that.
And that in of itself is a job.
SPEAKER_01 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant.
I mean, like I said, I I knowDC, um, not know it, no, it I
don't work there, but I'mfamiliar with it um from you
know staff members who I havethere who are um good colleagues
and friends of mine, and itreally is said on the street
that it's a good place to work.
(24:17):
So hopefully that will continueunder your tenure.
All right.
Am I allowed to say your age onthe podcast, Tom?
You say my age, yeah.
Okay, I'm 39.
So you're 30, what?
SPEAKER_02 (24:29):
Nine.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
Oh, you're 39.
You turned oh, I was I had it as38.
Okay, you're 39 years old.
SPEAKER_02 (24:33):
I was in I was I'm in August.
I'm in I was one of the youngestin my school year, so I'm uh I'm
just just past that now.
SPEAKER_01 (24:39):
Okay, so you're a 39-year-old dad and husband.
So outside of your role asheadmaster, you've got to have
things you do, interests, thingsthat people would never even
imagine that you get up to.
So let's start off easy.
What are you humming in theshower?
SPEAKER_02 (25:01):
Yeah, so I'm gonna it's uh my music taste is super,
super eclectic, right?
So I'm I'm one hand, I'm veryinto vinyl, so I've got a load
of uh vinyl of kind of anythingfrom Bob Dylan, Bruce
Springsteen, all that sort ofstuff.
In my in my office, I'm famous,I have music on all the time uh
because I and I listen toclassical in the daytime.
(25:21):
I happen to be a massive fan ofum house music and uh kind of
you know recently even got thechance to go see Ramper and fun
things like that.
So I'm super mega eclectic.
Uh I like different music fordifferent scenarios.
SPEAKER_01 (25:36):
So, what would you be humming?
Give me one.
SPEAKER_02 (25:39):
Uh, what's my go-to?
I have actually got someearworms.
I'm trying to think of what myearworms are because I sometimes
get uh criticized for them.
Uh possibly Call Me Owl by PaulSimon.
Um, it's it lives in my ear on aregular basis, I would say.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
Nice.
SPEAKER_02 (25:57):
And so I have a really and I have a really
annoying habit as well ofsinging.
Like I will get triggered withcertain words, and then I will
sing a song later, which is adeeply annoying habit.
I appreciate.
SPEAKER_01 (26:08):
I I I I think our listeners will appreciate
eclectic tastes in music.
I've had previous previous headteachers on here who've gone
from Coldplay right the waythrough to Bob Marley.
So don't don't worry, don't feelbashful, don't feel shy, relax,
feel comfortable.
We're a friendly bunch aroundhere at Teach Middle East and
our listeners of the podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
So you see a judgment now.
You say, I don't mind, I don'tmind judgment about the role,
but my music taste.
This is where judgment exists.
SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
So no judgment.
We don't don't judge.
We we listen, you know what themillennials say, Gen Z, we
listen and we don't judge.
SPEAKER_02 (26:45):
So okay, I'll I accept that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:47):
Okay.
Here's my other question.
So it's date night for you andCatherine.
You've got two young kids.
Where are you going?
Where are you taking her?
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
Well, yeah, I I should be a better husband in
this area.
I mean, we are probably goingfor a meal, uh and we're
probably going for sushi, Ishould think.
Funny enough, something likethat.
I wouldn't imagine it.
Oh, I wish we had a date nightevery week.
I'm afraid we are not as good aswe should be on that.
So, yes, that is not that is notan area I'm being a success in,
but I'm now even saying that outloud, I would be more
(27:17):
successful.
So, yes, invariably, because welived in Asia for four years,
uh, Asian food is pretty muchour hacky place in that regard.
Obviously, Dubai is blessed bysome of the best food in the
world.
So, yes, somewhere with um Asianfood and a nice glass of wine.
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
So I hear my listeners in my head, they're
rooting for Catherine andthey're saying, Do better, Tom.
SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
Yes, as they should.
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
You should take her out for lovely date nights
because Dubai has beautifulplaces and you can even drive
across to Abu Dhabi and try somestuff there.
But let's say you don't get to adate night as much as you'd
like, but you have to plan aholiday.
And someone like you who's beenwell traveled, what are you
planning?
Where are you going and why areyou going there?
SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
So the reason I'm laughing is because Catherine is
if Catherine had one hobby, uhwhat there'd be top of the list,
holiday planning is her hobby.
So, and if were I to take thataway from her, it would be an
absolute disaster.
But travel is one of our biggestthings.
I we at the moment, so allholiday planning is done by
Catherine, and all of ourfriends will know she's a travel
planning expert.
People from around the world askfor her advice.
(28:26):
And at the moment, we are tryingto get me to 100 countries.
So I've been to 85 countriescurrently.
I just went to we just went toRomania.
Um, so I can tell you that we'vealready planned the next 15
countries over the next fewyears uh where we intend to go
to get me to 100 countries.
So, yes, I can't answer thatbecause I would never be allowed
to plan a holiday.
SPEAKER_01 (28:45):
Oh, wow.
Okay, Catherine, we're comingfor you.
Maybe we'll have you on talkingabout where teachers should
travel to and why and what'sgood and what's not good.
Give us like a holiday, maybeone of the episodes before we go
off on a major holiday, and thensometimes we can get use those
tips and put them in place.
You you have a busy job, right?
(29:07):
But you as an individual have totake care of you inwards.
So I don't want to get spookyand spiritual, but what but my
question is what grounds you?
SPEAKER_02 (29:21):
Yeah, I mean, family is the most obvious answer.
Uh, I have to uh another badhabit or good habit I've got
recently is voice notes onWhatsApp.
So I stay, you know, at themoment when I'm walking, I'm
moving around, I'll often send avoice note to some of my friends
at home.
Uh that grounds me.
Um so yeah, I mean, family andfriends is the most obvious
answer, I would say.
Uh yeah, I you know, look, Iagain, this is this is not a
(29:43):
particularly grounded answer, Imust say.
But you know, I have I'm reallyinto stoicism and Marcus
Aurelius, which is notspiritual, but some people might
argue is spiritual uh in certainrespects.
So I I spend quite a lot of timeor have spent a lot of time
considering uh elements of howwe think, how we control our
thoughts, and that sort ofstuff.
So, you know, obviously forMarcus Aurelius, humility is is
(30:07):
one of the most important valuesyou can have.
So uh, you know, I think of thata lot.
Uh, I encourage that a lot uh tothose around me.
So I would say that's whatgrounds me.
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
Hmm.
So you're into stoicism.
It's quite interesting, um, thethings that people are into.
What does humility?
He means to you?
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
Yeah, I think I'd sometimes I use the quote, work
in silence, let your success beyour noise.
I think that you're, you know,people who are full of purpose
and full of direction and arecomfortable and are competent
and confident are aware of theirplace among things.
They don't need to shout aboutthem.
So you know, humility for me isnot trying to vie for your own
(30:52):
uh place or set send out amessage around where you need to
be.
It's just being in control,being uh purposeful, and
allowing others to makejudgments on you in that regard.
So uh yeah, I probably that'sprobably why humility, well,
certainly very important toMarcus Raelis, but humility is a
important value in stoicism fullstop.
SPEAKER_01 (31:13):
Interesting.
I did read um a bit of hiswriting, um, and yeah, there is
a place for stoicism, but alsothere is also a place for your
emotions and for understandinghow you feel and why you're
(31:34):
feeling it, and allowing thosefeelings.
So I I mean I get there, thereare two schools of thoughts on
that.
SPEAKER_02 (31:40):
So you so sometimes that's uh it can be a missed
perception of stoicism becausestoic Marcus Aurelius talks a
lot about happiness and beinghappy and being emotional.
It's less about being emotions,it's about checking your
emotions.
Stoicism is one of thefoundational practices as that
are part of CBT, where youpeople to actually have therapy.
(32:00):
Uh, equally, lots of themindfulness is the idea of
understanding that you're incontrol of your thoughts.
So actually, stoicism is notagainst emotion, it's against
being led by emotion.
It it, you know, Marcus Sorelistalks a lot about you know
understanding that the wayyou're feeling about others is
actually irrational.
So you capture it, you controlit, and then that changes your
(32:21):
actions and behaviors.
So yeah, there's a lot ofemotion in stoicism, and
particularly happiness as well.
You know, again, Marcus Relusspeaks a lot about celebrating
and capturing the joy of lifeand the joyful little moments.
So yeah, it's not it's notmisery, it's uh it's a different
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (32:37):
Yeah, okay.
All right, that clarifies that abit.
What what makes you what makesyou sad?
SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
What makes me sad?
I mean, I I on on balance, I'mquite a positive person.
Um, I was really fortunate in myprevious role, and it's
something I wish to uh wish tobring here eventually, once I'm
settled, to work in in the powerof education across the world.
So I did a lot of work withdifferent charities and I was in
charge of scholarship, which isa card, a big part of Eglon.
(33:08):
So Egolon is a very expensiveschool, but it's 10% scholar.
So I was fortunate enough to goto Palestine, I was fortunate
enough to set up uh work workwith the Navajo Indian uh tribes
in in New Mexico.
And essentially, you know, thewhat I saw in those schools made
me sad.
But then equally I believe inthe power of education to to
level that playing field to anextent.
SPEAKER_01 (33:30):
So what makes you sad?
SPEAKER_02 (33:32):
Yeah, uh well, inequality, I guess, if I don't
want a better word.
I mean, that sounds like a kindof very wishy-washy answer, but
um, but yeah, yeah, people whodon't get the same opportunities
as others, I guess, wouldprobably make me sad.
SPEAKER_01 (33:44):
Yeah, no, don't don't judge your answers.
I I want I want your answers tobe your answers.
They're the they're they're theanswers that coming from you,
what you what comes up first isnormally what's right.
SPEAKER_02 (33:57):
And you know, yeah, there is an injustice piece
there, right?
Again, I I won't be drawn ontalking about specific leaders,
but there's some bad leaders inthe world, right?
And equally, it can be reallyhard working in education when
you spend all of your timetalking about key values and
character and kindness andhumility when some of the most
powerful and important people inthe world are almost the other
(34:20):
end of that spectrum.
So, and that's really hard.
It's really hard.
I mean, I'm sure it's beenreferenced numerous times,
right?
With this the impact of thatadolescence Netflix documentary,
it's hard being a father ofyoung, uh, a young boy and
seeing young men, and when yousee the role models that there
are in the world to an extent,yeah.
I mean, that makes me prettysad.
SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
Yeah.
And then I know apart fromfamily, what makes you happy?
SPEAKER_02 (34:49):
Yeah, I mean, it's what do I like to do?
I guess.
I mean, skiing makes me veryhappy, and I that is a sad thing
about leave leaving Switzerland.
Obviously, I skied a lot there,and I have been to Ski Dubai,
and I'm very great, it's veryfun.
Uh, but it's not quite the samething there.
Um, but beyond that, yeah, it'ssports in all forms.
Obviously, as you get older, youknow, your knees start to give
(35:10):
up a little bit.
But uh yeah, football,basketball, all those sort of
things.
I've just, in fact, I've justdealt with an email.
I am now, I've agreed, which Iwill probably regret, to play in
a teacher versus studentbasketball match here at Dubai
College, uh, which is one of thebiggest events of the year.
Um, so yeah, that's that's gonnabe fun.
SPEAKER_01 (35:29):
Yeah, I think I think when it comes to
happiness, um, it could be thesimple things like a good sushi
meal or playing a game ofbasketball or or any anything
like that.
You know, people often think ithas to be a big thing, it could
be the smallest of things.
Um, what are you reading apartfrom Marcus Aurelis?
(35:50):
What are you reading?
SPEAKER_02 (35:51):
So I I've just finished uh I got obsessed with
the Wolf Hall trilogy, all threeof them.
So this they actually have justjust finished the third one.
Um bring out the bodies.
I think I've got them right inthe wrong order now because you
get one that but yeah, so andthat was all three of those,
each one of them is kind of 800words.
So the Thomas Cromwell, HillaryMantle thing.
Uh, so that's that's gonethrough that.
And then I've just started uh abook called Fox, uh, which is
(36:15):
not a very pleasant book, uh,and it's about uh the murder of
a uh murder of a pedophilicteacher, actually.
So it's uh it's not easyreading, uh I would say.
So uh yes, that that's what Ihave finished and that's what
I've moved on to, but I'm notenjoying the the current book as
much as I was at the last, I'llput it that way.
SPEAKER_01 (36:32):
And you've written what what were you what were you
writing about?
What was your book about so no?
SPEAKER_02 (36:39):
Well, I write so I one of my my previous work was
on uh the theory of knowledge.
So again, my degree is historyand politics, but particularly I
looked at political philosophy,uh was a real passion of mine,
moving into philosophy.
And then when I got into an IBschool uh in Brunei, a Gerald
International School, uh, I gotreally into theory of knowledge,
so epistemological philosophy.
(37:00):
And then I got more engaged withthat community, and then I was
asked by Cambridge to write theresource guide.
So I wrote that resource guide,which was which was fun, and
every now and then uh it's quitenice because essentially it's
planning how you teach thatcourse and how you should how
you know, even down to the themy niche eye of preparing for
the lessons and that sort ofstuff.
And every now and then I'll beit somewhere and someone will
say, Can I just say thank youvery much uh for the lessons and
(37:22):
the impact you provided for myTOK lessons?
Because T OK, when you start it,can be quite overwhelming
because you don't really knowwhat it is, it's so different to
other subjects.
Um, so I've had quite a fewpeople, it's very kind, who have
said, I just want to say thankyou because I didn't know what I
was doing and I read your book.
So, and then I'm supposed to bewriting a book on character
education currently, uh, whichis not going as well as I would
(37:44):
have hoped.
And you know, headmaster ofDubai College, uh, father of
young children, um, fitting inwriting a book is not not going
as well as it should be.
But I, you know, I even sayingthose things out loud to you, I
need to take my wife on a dateand I need to write my book.
Right?
There's my to-do list.
SPEAKER_01 (38:02):
Catherine, you can thank me later.
Um, we're wrapping up thepodcast.
So, what I wanted to end with isobviously your school is known,
but if you were, and I want youto don't give me the political,
I don't know what I would do.
(38:24):
Give me what you really thinkyou should do.
If you were leading a schoolthat required improvement in
this AI world with everythinggoing kind of crazy
education-wise, where would youstart?
SPEAKER_02 (38:41):
Yeah, I got a quite easy answer for this because I I
would apply the same process foreverything, which is philosophy,
people, process.
So I believe that any problem ineducation could be dealt with
those things.
So you start with a philosophy,you have to make sure that
you're on the same page.
You can't deal with uh comingfrom education from two totally
different points, we'll neverget past that.
(39:02):
Again, you know, the is sooutstanding, but actually, our
educational philosophies, she'sin charge of the learning here,
they are so aligned.
Uh, Debs, who's our safeguardingperson, again, our safeguarding
uh how we her, she and I, how wesee the role of safeguarding,
our works in safeguardingobviously extensively in
boarding.
You know, we're we're so alignedhere that I'm bringing and it's
(39:22):
a joy.
So you've got to get thephilosophy lined up first,
regardless of what the problemis.
You can't really get past thatpoint.
Then it's about people, and youhave to trust people.
You've got to get make sureyou've got the right people in
the room, all right?
So, and again, that sometimesleads to if you know in this
hypothetical example of a schoolthat needs improvement,
sometimes that means sayinggoodbye to people or moving
(39:43):
people to different areas or youknow, encouraging them to move
on, find their happinesselsewhere.
So you can't you can't doanything about that.
You can coach people, you candevelop them, but if they have a
different philosophy and they'renot prepared to take you on that
journey, then then you have tohave some tough conversations.
And then lastly, it's aboutprocess.
It really thing is abouteducation, is we don't have to
(40:03):
make it hard for teachers.
The most valuable point ofteaching, or education full sort
of the mo the highest value itemyou do is the relationship and
interaction based aroundlearning between the teacher and
the group of students.
That is the thing that mattersmost.
And we as educators and asschools find so many ways to get
(40:24):
in the way of that.
Um, so then you need to, Ireally feel this quite strongly
because it's quite sad whenyou're headmaster, you don't
teach or you teach very, verylittle.
Um, so you're away from that keypart.
But my purpose and my my wholeraison debt is to get in there
to to make sure that we can makeit focus on the main thing,
(40:44):
focus on learning, focus onrelationships, and we will try
and deal with everything else.
SPEAKER_01 (40:48):
Brilliant.
That's a great place to end thepod.
Thank you for being my guest,Tom.
SPEAKER_02 (40:53):
Thank you for having me.
And uh, yeah, I'll better goorganize a date.
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
Yes, you do.
Uh, I think I think you have anassignment for this long
weekend.
This this podcast listeners isbeing recorded on the Friday of
the long weekend, the prophet'sbirthday, and Thomas is in his
office.
So that's a very telltale signthat he needs to get out of his
office and go take Catherineout.
(41:18):
Thank you for being on the pod.
SPEAKER_02 (41:20):
Thank you very much.
You are listening to the Teach Middle East Podcast.
Connecting, developing, andempowering educators.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Hey hey everyone, Lisa Grace here, welcoming you
back to the Teach Middle Eastpodcast.
Today I have Tom Duckling.
Actually, he's Tomas.
You know a funny story.
I saw his name and I taught atTomas when I was teaching in
Enfield.
And that boy was trouble.
He was let's just say he Iremember him.
(01:03):
And if I remember him, he wasnot the easiest of students.
But I hope this um interviewwith Tom is gonna be different.
Welcome to the podcast, Tom.
SPEAKER_02 (01:13):
Thank you very much.
Yeah, I hope it wasn't me, allthose, yeah, but no.
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Were you in Enfield in the late 90s, early 2000s?
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
Uh I was, I mean, I was not in Enfield, but not far
away.
I was from Watford, so uh in andaround that area.
Yeah, not far away.
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
I taught in Waltham Cross.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
Okay, all right, nice.
There wasn't Waltham Cross, sogood.
There's a as nice another big uhbadly behaved Thomas in in town.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
Okay.
So Tom is the headmaster ofDubai College, one of the
region's leading not-for-profitschools.
Um, he took over from Mike.
Um, most of you might know MikeLambert.
I'm not sure if you guysremember prior to Mike, but he's
(02:04):
sitting in the principal's desk,and on this segment, we are
going behind the principal'sdesk to ask the questions that
many of you want to know.
These are the questions that wedon't normally get to ask head
teachers because it would comeoff as invasive, but I get the
privilege of asking thosequestions.
(02:25):
Dubai College is a specialplace.
I have lots of friends there.
Clive, no, Clive is not thereanymore.
Oops, sorry.
Um, Dee and the gang are stillthere, so shout out to them if
they listen to the pod.
Um, it's it's a really, reallynice school.
How have you been finding it?
SPEAKER_02 (02:42):
Uh I love it.
I love it.
It's I'm I'm so glad you startedwith that, actually, because
it's it, as you know, it's oneof the kindest, loveliest places
to be.
It's got a lovely atmosphere,it's got a lovely calm
atmosphere around, it's verygreen.
We've obviously got the campusfeel, kids are incredibly
polite.
Um, so it's yeah, it's anabsolute joy.
Uh, and that team are so good,they're so accomplished, they're
(03:07):
so intelligent.
Uh, it's uh been a realprivilege.
So, yeah, couldn't be happier,is my answer.
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
Welcome to, I know it's late to be saying welcome,
but welcome anyway.
Um, I'm I'm hoping you're havinga good time in the region.
I mean, you you just mentionedthe campus is green, but coming
from Switzerland, how have youfound the transition to the
desert?
SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
Uh, yeah, look, uh, Switzerland has its positives
and negatives as does Dubai.
Um, so Switzerland wasbeautiful, and we were obviously
up in the mountains and we're ina ski resort, but also it was a
very quiet place.
Uh, and as previously mentioned,you know.
So I'm from Watford originally,right up in the north part, or
the most north you can go inLondon.
(03:50):
Uh so it was very, very, veryquiet.
And before that, uh, my wife andI, we were in Borneo as well,
actually, in a country calledBrunei.
So we had two very rural, veryremote, uh wonderful schools,
absolutely fantastic,high-level, high-achieving
schools, uh, but in places thatwere very sleepy.
So we were as a family, we werereally ready for a fun change.
(04:12):
Um, and equally, I've got twolittle ones, a six-year-old and
a four-year-old.
And they are, you know, this isjust such a fun place to be when
you're a little kid.
So, yeah, really, really happy.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
What was it like growing up in Watford?
SPEAKER_02 (04:26):
It was fun.
I mean, I love Watford.
I was brought up by my dad.
Um, and you know, I went to kindof a state school that was
obsessed with football, andeveryone was obsessed by
football.
Um, and you know, it was uhthere was there were elements of
a bit rough and ready in thosedays.
That was before people had it aspart of the community uh
commuter belt, which it is now.
So when I go home to Watford, Idon't really recognise it.
(04:48):
Um, but yeah, largely a lot offun.
Uh it was funny if I was talkingto someone about this this week
about um about children andcontact and safety.
And you know, the one of thethings I remember most was just
you had an in time, that was it.
You know, you had a curfew, youhad an in time, and that was it.
And just just you know, cyclingaround Watford on a BMX, uh
(05:11):
playing football with differentareas all around it was uh yeah,
a really happy time.
And I've still got uh very, veryclose friends uh there.
So yeah, I've very fond ofWatford, a massive Watford
football fan uh as well.
So I was a season ticket holderthere for the best part of 20
years or so before I wentinternational.
So uh yeah, very fond of it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
Yeah, I was just about to ask you which team you
support.
Do you support Watford?
SPEAKER_02 (05:35):
Yeah, well, I was born in Watford General
Hospital, which backs in uh overWatford General uh Watford
Football Club, Vickerage Road.
Uh and so yeah, big, always beena big Watford fan, so never
really had uh any otherallegiance.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
Yeah, the thing is, Watford, Watford has really come
up.
When I was a young girl, peoplefrom our area would move to
Watford because the houses werecheaper than Tottenham, um, and
it would have been consideredout of London, and but now
Watford has made a um a 360.
(06:09):
You can't buy anything inWatford now.
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
Do you know what's really fascinating actually?
So my family originally comesfrom Walthamstow in East London.
So, and of course, Watford wasset up as many places were as
satellites post-the blitz.
So uh it's quite interestingwhen you meet people from Essex.
I've lost most of my accent now.
Um, but my my accent when I wasa bit younger, right?
Hello, mate, how are you doing?
Playing a bit of football.
Uh so it Watford accent is very,very similar to Essex accent,
(06:34):
but because both both arepost-war council setups that
were put up after the blitz, sothere's a very similar kind of
East London twang to it.
Um, and it's it's interestingthat I say, as East London has
become incredibly uh expensivenow as well, and now Watford is
similar sort of thing.
So yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
Grew up with your dad.
What was that like?
SPEAKER_02 (06:57):
My dad's a legend.
Uh he's a very, very, very funnyman.
Um, he's uh yeah, he's a goodcharacter.
So he brought me up uh from fromvery young, and then my later on
uh my stepmother uh arrived, soreally great.
And my house was uh the centreof a lot of fun, actually.
Always really loads of peoplecame around, lots of parties,
were welcome at the house.
(07:17):
It's the kind of the centre ofthe family.
So Christmas is with kind of 25people round you all round
tables and that sort of stuff.
So uh, you know, everyonechipping in and that sort of
stuff.
So yeah, my dad's uh a greatman, real hero of mine.
Uh but he's yeah, he's got asense of humor, uh, it's fair to
say.
Siblings, sister, yeah, oldersister, uh who I love dearly,
(07:40):
uh, still living in the UK.
SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And so growing up with your dad,obviously, you didn't have I
would I would I I would supposeyou didn't have that
conventional mom-dad family fora while.
What was that like in school?
So you have to go to school andyou're only with your dad.
Was there any any link betweenthe two?
(08:03):
Did you suffer any, you know,consequences of that?
SPEAKER_02 (08:07):
Do you know what it's a funny, it's a funny
scenario.
It's a really interestingquestion because I I I had when
I was in my school, which I saidwas just a pretty rough and
ready state school, uh, I wasconsidered quite posh.
Um, and when I went touniversity, they kind of
everyone thought I was reallycommon and they they thought I
was from East Enders orsomething like that.
(08:27):
And the reason that's quiteimportant is my dad, what he
prioritized was stuff.
So he was really hardworking, hehe worked long hours, so I had
to often get myself to schooland etc.
etc.
All those sort of independencepieces, blah blah.
Uh, but what he prioritized waskind of uh, for want of a better
word, cultural literacy and umcultural knowledge.
(08:48):
So we we went to the theatre alot.
My dad took me to the opera,took me to the ballet, he took
me to museums on a regularbasis.
We went what to Watford matches,home and away.
It sounds I was sounds stupid,but going to away matches, I
learned to read a map andnavigate in the days before Tom
Fell.
So I had a really goodunderstanding of the country,
really good understanding ofdifferent cultures.
(09:09):
Um, so actually, it was for me,it was dual benefit.
I said my where my school washad a lot of feeders from a lot
of different um kind ofsocioeconomic backgrounds, but I
was you know, I was consideredone of the the posha kids.
But going to the theatre waskind of what how you why are you
going to the theatre?
Who does that?
So I'm very grateful for my dadfor all that he did there.
It was a really, really goodthing to have done and had a
(09:30):
massive impact on my well, myappreciation of the world and
and love of education and andfurther.
So yeah, great.
SPEAKER_01 (09:37):
Why do you think he did that?
Why do you think he wasdeliberately exposing you to
those cultural things?
SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
I think when you're a parent, you look for something
in common, right?
So and I I don't think I so mypar my kids have just got
obsessed with Pokemon, and I'vebeen obsessed.
So we now watch Pokemon, we drawPokemon, they've got the
figures, they've got the tradingcards.
Um, and as of dad, I sometimes II've always found play
difficult.
When they're younger, I kind oflike, let's play, but let's play
(10:10):
shots, and that sort of stuff.
And so Pokemon's been reallygood for me this summer to have
something that I can kind ofwork with them, talk with them,
I can draw with them, and thatsort of stuff.
So I think really uh I did askhim at this once.
I think he just wanted somethingto do that was good for him and
good for me.
SPEAKER_01 (10:27):
So now you are a dad of two young children.
Yeah.
What are you doing todeliberately spend time with
them?
SPEAKER_02 (10:37):
Well, I have to say that's been one of the real
benefits of Dubai.
Um, because previously my schoolwas a boarding school, um, and
boarding education has enormouspositives.
It's a massive privilege to workin a boarding school for people
to trust you with their childrenall the time uh is a significant
uh level of trust and asignificant responsibility.
(10:57):
Uh, but I was super busy in aboarding school, I was so, so
busy.
Um, so in terms of deliberatelyspending time, whilst obviously
being head of Dubai College isnot without challenge and long
hours, um, fundamentally I'mspending so much more time with
my kids.
Just Dubai has been brilliantfor that.
Just even the culture here, uhactually, DC's got a brilliant
(11:17):
culture, which is we aretotally, we do not have emails
outside of the school day.
So, and and so much so, even inmy first weekend, uh you already
mentioned D.
Um, I I sent an email on theweekend and she straight away
sent back, that's a no, we don'tdo that here.
And and I'm so glad she did, uh,because we don't, it's a really,
really fixed culture for givingpeople the space and time.
(11:40):
DC is a fast-paced, uh,high-level, high-quality
institution.
So when we're here, we're allworking really, really hard, um,
but we really protect that.
So now I'm very grateful as wellfor that.
So, what are you doing with thewith with your doing?
Uh at the moment, I said there'ssix and four.
So it's essentially Pokemon orwater slides, I would say that
my life is predominantly Pokemonor water slides.
(12:02):
Sometimes at the moment, walkingaround malls, you know, just to
get them out of the house in theheat.
So we've we've done quite a lotof uh you know, wandering
around, having a froyo, thatsort of thing.
So is your wife a teacher?
My wife is an English teacherhere at Dubai College, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Ah, what's it like being married to a teacher,
being the headmaster?
SPEAKER_02 (12:21):
Uh so we've only ever worked together.
Actually, Catherine had a uh hada previous career she worked in
media, uh, where she worked asan agent for celebrities and
that sort of stuff.
So she had a much more uhglamorous career prior, but then
she retrained and became ateacher.
So we've only ever workedtogether.
Uh so it's absolutely uh not aproblem at all.
It's something we really enjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
What is it with Dubai College?
Mike and Sarah, same, oh comeon, it's a pattern, isn't it?
But it's it's good, it's good.
So when you when you decided tomove to Dubai, what were some of
the things you were lookingforward to?
And did they did they meetexpectations?
SPEAKER_02 (13:04):
Uh what were they looking forward to?
I I think actually that I Imight, if I can, I can might
answer that differently.
Uh, I think the things whatsurprised me was better.
I mean, everything I was lookingforward to is here.
The students here are anabsolute privilege and enjoy it.
They are so uh kind of eloquent,but also adult and mature and
thoughtful.
(13:25):
And you know, talking to them islike talking to an expert at
times.
So the students here arefabulous.
The staff here have been sowelcoming to me, and they are
operating at such a high level.
So all of those things aregreat.
Um, I think, but Dubai, what Ididn't expect, I didn't, I
wasn't as aware as I possiblyshould have been of the
reputation of Dubai College.
And what I mean by that is it'san institution in Dubai.
(13:48):
Um, and I didn't quite realisewhat came with that, I guess, in
terms of so that was a bit of asurprise, sort of, you know, DC
is a big deal.
Um, and it just, you know, butthe minute you even mention it,
it kind of changes the natureand tenor of conversations in a
way perhaps previously, youknow, working in one school is
just you working in a school,you're a teacher.
(14:09):
Whereas the minute you say youwork at DC, uh, it has an impact
on things.
So that's probably the thingthat I was most surprised about.
But apart from that, the rest ofit I was kind of expecting and
it's delivered.
SPEAKER_01 (14:21):
Good impact, as in when you when you mention DC,
does it open doors or does itclose them, or what's the
impact?
SPEAKER_02 (14:30):
Uh both is the answer.
Is sometimes it opens them, andsometimes I guess it has people
have preconceived um perceptionsof DC.
I have said that's why I'mdelighted you started with it's
such a nice school.
Um, there are people who don'tthink that, right?
So people see our our results,which are, as you know, some of
the best results in the world,and they think it's going to be
a hot house, and they think it'sgoing to be a very uh aggressive
(14:53):
culture.
And it's and for those that havebeen here and seen it, they know
it's the complete opposite ofthat.
It's calm, it's kind, it'sthoughtful.
Uh, the opening doors thing, Iguess there's always that
element because of the matrix,because DC has this uniqueness,
and there's the original campuson the wall behind me, it has
this uniqueness of starting fromyear seven, therefore it has
this entry, right?
(15:13):
And because we, even this yearalone, 176 places, we had 850
applications.
That tension around that, Ithink, is probably the bit that
is both a positive, uh, but alsosometimes can lead to attention
and can lead to a difficult teamin conversations and how people
feel about it as well.
SPEAKER_01 (15:32):
So I'm gonna ask you a question that is not very
conventional.
So you were the deputy at EglenUm College in Switzerland, and
so you moved from deputy head toheadmaster at Dubai College
without previously being a head.
And I want to know for mylisteners what that transition
(15:55):
has been like, and how do youeven prepare for such a
transition?
SPEAKER_02 (16:00):
So uh I probably should provide a bit of context.
So, firstly, I had a fantasticmentor in my last role.
So, Nicola Sparrow is the headof um Airborn College, and she
and I worked together closelyfor nearly eight years, and she
allowed me incredible access tothe work that she did, and I I
mean I very much learnedalongside her.
So I modelled a lot of what I donow on her and watching how she
(16:23):
did things.
So, firstly, I had really,really good mentorship and
training.
Secondly, I would say thatagain, a boarding model is
slightly different.
So, because Eglon is quite aprestigious school, obviously
it's quite famously a veryexpensive school, it has a large
alumni network.
So, Nicola would travel quite abit.
So she travelled for periods oftime.
So there were also stretches oftime whereby I would be
(16:46):
essentially uh running elementsor large elements of the
day-to-day of the school.
So I, you know, as it was, Iline managed the academic side,
I line managed the operationalside, and I line managed the
boarding uh side as well.
So, in many respects, the remitof the role there was
significant and therefore helpedme.
I was afforded with a lot ofopportunities to get experience
(17:08):
for many of the decisions I haveto reach here.
However, what is the hardestbit, which you can't prepare
for, is that you've got nobodyelse to talk to.
That's that's the toughest bit.
Um, and what I mean by that,even in my first couple of
weeks, I remember just thatmoment where I picked up on the
fact that people are waiting forme to make the decision.
(17:29):
And I was so conditioned tohaving someone there to do that,
that there was probably areluctance or a lack of
awareness in certain times that,oh God, that's coming to me.
That's my decision.
And that's the bit you can'tcome to.
You know, in every scenariopreviously, whilst I had good
experience and lots and lots ofopportunities to uh lead change,
(17:50):
lead work with people, coachothers, all of that sort of
stuff I did previously.
I would always call Nicola andsay, right, is that the right
call?
And or very serious calls cameto her in this seat.
That comes to me now.
I've got a fantastic board.
Uh the chair of my board is isabsolutely outstanding and has
been again been you know takingan active role in looking to
help me.
(18:10):
Uh, but ultimately it's my headand it's my responsibility.
So that's the toughest bit.
Um, but you just need to listenwell, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Yeah.
Preparing the next set ofleaders, how how do you plan to
do that?
SPEAKER_02 (18:26):
So I I'm I'm someone quite a big believer in this.
I'm very different, and it hasbeen commented on.
Uh, I've got quite a differentleadership style in this.
I really do believe in uh, youknow, and I did I've done my
MBA.
Funnily enough, I did my MBAthrough UCL with Mike Lambert,
right?
And that's he and I met manyyears ago.
And, you know, the two the twowords I use from that, from
(18:48):
those leadership manuals andthat sort of stuff, uh, were
trusted autonomy and distributedleadership.
And I actually started here withthe staff and talked about those
two forms of leadership and whythey're important to me.
So I I do a lot of stuff ontrust.
I've got an amazing top teamhere.
And actually, sometimes I comeback to that thing.
Uh, Dylan William said, youknow, if you if you're a senior
(19:08):
leader and you want to leadchange in a school, get out of
the room.
And and it's not evasive ordelegation or trying to avoid
work, I assure you.
But I've actually spent quite alot of my time here getting out
of the room, trusting people todo that.
You know, I take responsibilityif something goes wrong, I'm
accountable, I will answer forit, and we will talk about the
mistake that's been made, and Itake responsibility for that,
(19:29):
but ultimately giving people thespace and support to make those
decisions.
That's how I develop leaders.
I I am a big believer thatwhilst of course you can do
courses, and whilst of courseyou can read leadership books,
and whilst of course you canreflect, I I'm a big believer in
that you learn by practice inleadership, and you've got to
sometimes make those mistakesand then be reflective enough to
(19:52):
grow from them as well.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
So uh this is my last question about your school,
because then I want to talkabout you.
But taking, I often say takingover an outstanding school is
harder than taking over a schoolthat requires improvement
because you can see what you cando from day one.
(20:14):
First of all, do you agree withthat or not?
Uh possibly, yes.
Then my second follow-upquestion to that is how do you
plan to move DC forward, havingtaken over such a reputable
institution that's alreadyoutstanding in many ways?
SPEAKER_02 (20:31):
Yeah, I think the first thing I would say is what
you judge outstanding and whatyou're trying to do.
So, you know, the fundamentalpoint there is that education is
moving around us as is society.
All right.
So education needs to beflexible and adaptive, as do the
young people that we are helpingto shape.
So there's lots and lots ofconversations to be had about
the future of education.
(20:52):
In terms of the outstandingpiece, I'm also on a kind of uh
strange mix of very, very proinnovation and making dynamic
moves forward, but alsotraditional, right?
I think there's a lot ofbenefits to long-term uh proven,
evidence, traditional learning.
Um, I think knowledge is veryimportant.
I think academic rigor is veryimportant.
(21:13):
So there's a maintenance piecethere as well.
I guess the bit I would say as aslight aside is I haven't felt
there's not work here to bedone.
And that's because, as well, PChas had lots and lots of systems
and structures uh that are aproduct of its length of time
and its tenure.
Uh and I've got work, I've gotexperience working in two very
(21:36):
high-achieving internationalschools within different
sectors.
So there have been quite a fewareas, I would say, that I've
been able to come in and say,look, there's an area to look at
this.
In addition, you know, one of mybig drives, again, Dylan
Williams work with Hattie andHamilton on de-implementation.
So I've talked a lot about staffabout de-implementation, because
as is a product of most schools,we see, especially as a busy
(21:58):
place, we've got systems on topof systems, we've got uh
structures that possibly couldbe more efficient, and as well
as that, we've got uh we havethe best part of 1300 very
high-achieving people in oneplace.
So one of the big things we'reactually looking at is how can
we make things more sustainable,de-implement to allow uh
learning to be the main focus.
(22:19):
So I don't feel there's not workto be done, but I look, there's
also, I think the bigger point Iwould say to you is not that
maintenance of outstanding, it'sit's about protection of the
culture and the community.
You know, were I the sort ofperson that came in and said,
I've been at other schools andthis is how it should be done, I
think I would have had a massiveissue.
I came into BC and I said, Iwant to learn about this school.
(22:41):
I love the story of this school.
I love that picture that I putup behind my desk.
Um, I love the fact, you know,our story of our origin, you
know, if we're going into our48th year, which makes it one of
the oldest schools uh in theMiddle East.
And particularly there, ofcourse, there's this pioneering
story of our founder, TimCharlton, who drove from London,
set up the school all the way,drove here all the way with the
(23:03):
Land Rover.
And we're looking at how we cancelebrate that.
So I'm I'm originally a historyand politics teacher, so I'm big
into traditions and I'm big intocelebrating that.
Uh and I, you know, when I camein, I met every member of staff
individually, and I just I justlistened.
So I hope that if you were tospeak to DC members of staff, we
recently celebrated our longtenure.
We had 77 members of staff thathave been here for over 10
(23:24):
years, including two members ofstaff that have been with us for
over 40 years, which you realizeis an enormous portion of the
school.
Yeah, this one.
The three members of staff thathave been in this school for
before I was born.
I I think we must be onto somesort of record in terms of the
amount of years worked inproportion to the amount of
years of the school.
So it's an astonishing um kindof proportion.
(23:47):
And it's so therefore there'ssuch deep love, such deep
commitment here, and it's beenmy role to celebrate that and
protect that.
And that in of itself is a job.
SPEAKER_01 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant.
I mean, like I said, I I knowDC, um, not know it, no, it I
don't work there, but I'mfamiliar with it um from you
know staff members who I havethere who are um good colleagues
and friends of mine, and itreally is said on the street
that it's a good place to work.
(24:17):
So hopefully that will continueunder your tenure.
All right.
Am I allowed to say your age onthe podcast, Tom?
You say my age, yeah.
Okay, I'm 39.
So you're 30, what?
SPEAKER_02 (24:29):
Nine.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
Oh, you're 39.
You turned oh, I was I had it as38.
Okay, you're 39 years old.
SPEAKER_02 (24:33):
I was in I was I'm in August.
I'm in I was one of the youngestin my school year, so I'm uh I'm
just just past that now.
SPEAKER_01 (24:39):
Okay, so you're a 39-year-old dad and husband.
So outside of your role asheadmaster, you've got to have
things you do, interests, thingsthat people would never even
imagine that you get up to.
So let's start off easy.
What are you humming in theshower?
SPEAKER_02 (25:01):
Yeah, so I'm gonna it's uh my music taste is super,
super eclectic, right?
So I'm I'm one hand, I'm veryinto vinyl, so I've got a load
of uh vinyl of kind of anythingfrom Bob Dylan, Bruce
Springsteen, all that sort ofstuff.
In my in my office, I'm famous,I have music on all the time uh
because I and I listen toclassical in the daytime.
(25:21):
I happen to be a massive fan ofum house music and uh kind of
you know recently even got thechance to go see Ramper and fun
things like that.
So I'm super mega eclectic.
Uh I like different music fordifferent scenarios.
SPEAKER_01 (25:36):
So, what would you be humming?
Give me one.
SPEAKER_02 (25:39):
Uh, what's my go-to?
I have actually got someearworms.
I'm trying to think of what myearworms are because I sometimes
get uh criticized for them.
Uh possibly Call Me Owl by PaulSimon.
Um, it's it lives in my ear on aregular basis, I would say.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
Nice.
SPEAKER_02 (25:57):
And so I have a really and I have a really
annoying habit as well ofsinging.
Like I will get triggered withcertain words, and then I will
sing a song later, which is adeeply annoying habit.
I appreciate.
SPEAKER_01 (26:08):
I I I I think our listeners will appreciate
eclectic tastes in music.
I've had previous previous headteachers on here who've gone
from Coldplay right the waythrough to Bob Marley.
So don't don't worry, don't feelbashful, don't feel shy, relax,
feel comfortable.
We're a friendly bunch aroundhere at Teach Middle East and
our listeners of the podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
So you see a judgment now.
You say, I don't mind, I don'tmind judgment about the role,
but my music taste.
This is where judgment exists.
SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
So no judgment.
We don't don't judge.
We we listen, you know what themillennials say, Gen Z, we
listen and we don't judge.
SPEAKER_02 (26:45):
So okay, I'll I accept that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:47):
Okay.
Here's my other question.
So it's date night for you andCatherine.
You've got two young kids.
Where are you going?
Where are you taking her?
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
Well, yeah, I I should be a better husband in
this area.
I mean, we are probably goingfor a meal, uh and we're
probably going for sushi, Ishould think.
Funny enough, something likethat.
I wouldn't imagine it.
Oh, I wish we had a date nightevery week.
I'm afraid we are not as good aswe should be on that.
So, yes, that is not that is notan area I'm being a success in,
but I'm now even saying that outloud, I would be more
(27:17):
successful.
So, yes, invariably, because welived in Asia for four years,
uh, Asian food is pretty muchour hacky place in that regard.
Obviously, Dubai is blessed bysome of the best food in the
world.
So, yes, somewhere with um Asianfood and a nice glass of wine.
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
So I hear my listeners in my head, they're
rooting for Catherine andthey're saying, Do better, Tom.
SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
Yes, as they should.
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
You should take her out for lovely date nights
because Dubai has beautifulplaces and you can even drive
across to Abu Dhabi and try somestuff there.
But let's say you don't get to adate night as much as you'd
like, but you have to plan aholiday.
And someone like you who's beenwell traveled, what are you
planning?
Where are you going and why areyou going there?
SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
So the reason I'm laughing is because Catherine is
if Catherine had one hobby, uhwhat there'd be top of the list,
holiday planning is her hobby.
So, and if were I to take thataway from her, it would be an
absolute disaster.
But travel is one of our biggestthings.
I we at the moment, so allholiday planning is done by
Catherine, and all of ourfriends will know she's a travel
planning expert.
People from around the world askfor her advice.
(28:26):
And at the moment, we are tryingto get me to 100 countries.
So I've been to 85 countriescurrently.
I just went to we just went toRomania.
Um, so I can tell you that we'vealready planned the next 15
countries over the next fewyears uh where we intend to go
to get me to 100 countries.
So, yes, I can't answer thatbecause I would never be allowed
to plan a holiday.
SPEAKER_01 (28:45):
Oh, wow.
Okay, Catherine, we're comingfor you.
Maybe we'll have you on talkingabout where teachers should
travel to and why and what'sgood and what's not good.
Give us like a holiday, maybeone of the episodes before we go
off on a major holiday, and thensometimes we can get use those
tips and put them in place.
You you have a busy job, right?
(29:07):
But you as an individual have totake care of you inwards.
So I don't want to get spookyand spiritual, but what but my
question is what grounds you?
SPEAKER_02 (29:21):
Yeah, I mean, family is the most obvious answer.
Uh, I have to uh another badhabit or good habit I've got
recently is voice notes onWhatsApp.
So I stay, you know, at themoment when I'm walking, I'm
moving around, I'll often send avoice note to some of my friends
at home.
Uh that grounds me.
Um so yeah, I mean, family andfriends is the most obvious
answer, I would say.
Uh yeah, I you know, look, Iagain, this is this is not a
(29:43):
particularly grounded answer, Imust say.
But you know, I have I'm reallyinto stoicism and Marcus
Aurelius, which is notspiritual, but some people might
argue is spiritual uh in certainrespects.
So I I spend quite a lot of timeor have spent a lot of time
considering uh elements of howwe think, how we control our
thoughts, and that sort ofstuff.
So, you know, obviously forMarcus Aurelius, humility is is
(30:07):
one of the most important valuesyou can have.
So uh, you know, I think of thata lot.
Uh, I encourage that a lot uh tothose around me.
So I would say that's whatgrounds me.
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
Hmm.
So you're into stoicism.
It's quite interesting, um, thethings that people are into.
What does humility?
He means to you?
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
Yeah, I think I'd sometimes I use the quote, work
in silence, let your success beyour noise.
I think that you're, you know,people who are full of purpose
and full of direction and arecomfortable and are competent
and confident are aware of theirplace among things.
They don't need to shout aboutthem.
So you know, humility for me isnot trying to vie for your own
(30:52):
uh place or set send out amessage around where you need to
be.
It's just being in control,being uh purposeful, and
allowing others to makejudgments on you in that regard.
So uh yeah, I probably that'sprobably why humility, well,
certainly very important toMarcus Raelis, but humility is a
important value in stoicism fullstop.
SPEAKER_01 (31:13):
Interesting.
I did read um a bit of hiswriting, um, and yeah, there is
a place for stoicism, but alsothere is also a place for your
emotions and for understandinghow you feel and why you're
(31:34):
feeling it, and allowing thosefeelings.
So I I mean I get there, thereare two schools of thoughts on
that.
SPEAKER_02 (31:40):
So you so sometimes that's uh it can be a missed
perception of stoicism becausestoic Marcus Aurelius talks a
lot about happiness and beinghappy and being emotional.
It's less about being emotions,it's about checking your
emotions.
Stoicism is one of thefoundational practices as that
are part of CBT, where youpeople to actually have therapy.
(32:00):
Uh, equally, lots of themindfulness is the idea of
understanding that you're incontrol of your thoughts.
So actually, stoicism is notagainst emotion, it's against
being led by emotion.
It it, you know, Marcus Sorelistalks a lot about you know
understanding that the wayyou're feeling about others is
actually irrational.
So you capture it, you controlit, and then that changes your
(32:21):
actions and behaviors.
So yeah, there's a lot ofemotion in stoicism, and
particularly happiness as well.
You know, again, Marcus Relusspeaks a lot about celebrating
and capturing the joy of lifeand the joyful little moments.
So yeah, it's not it's notmisery, it's uh it's a different
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (32:37):
Yeah, okay.
All right, that clarifies that abit.
What what makes you what makesyou sad?
SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
What makes me sad?
I mean, I I on on balance, I'mquite a positive person.
Um, I was really fortunate in myprevious role, and it's
something I wish to uh wish tobring here eventually, once I'm
settled, to work in in the powerof education across the world.
So I did a lot of work withdifferent charities and I was in
charge of scholarship, which isa card, a big part of Eglon.
(33:08):
So Egolon is a very expensiveschool, but it's 10% scholar.
So I was fortunate enough to goto Palestine, I was fortunate
enough to set up uh work workwith the Navajo Indian uh tribes
in in New Mexico.
And essentially, you know, thewhat I saw in those schools made
me sad.
But then equally I believe inthe power of education to to
level that playing field to anextent.
SPEAKER_01 (33:30):
So what makes you sad?
SPEAKER_02 (33:32):
Yeah, uh well, inequality, I guess, if I don't
want a better word.
I mean, that sounds like a kindof very wishy-washy answer, but
um, but yeah, yeah, people whodon't get the same opportunities
as others, I guess, wouldprobably make me sad.
SPEAKER_01 (33:44):
Yeah, no, don't don't judge your answers.
I I want I want your answers tobe your answers.
They're the they're they're theanswers that coming from you,
what you what comes up first isnormally what's right.
SPEAKER_02 (33:57):
And you know, yeah, there is an injustice piece
there, right?
Again, I I won't be drawn ontalking about specific leaders,
but there's some bad leaders inthe world, right?
And equally, it can be reallyhard working in education when
you spend all of your timetalking about key values and
character and kindness andhumility when some of the most
powerful and important people inthe world are almost the other
(34:20):
end of that spectrum.
So, and that's really hard.
It's really hard.
I mean, I'm sure it's beenreferenced numerous times,
right?
With this the impact of thatadolescence Netflix documentary,
it's hard being a father ofyoung, uh, a young boy and
seeing young men, and when yousee the role models that there
are in the world to an extent,yeah.
I mean, that makes me prettysad.
SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
Yeah.
And then I know apart fromfamily, what makes you happy?
SPEAKER_02 (34:49):
Yeah, I mean, it's what do I like to do?
I guess.
I mean, skiing makes me veryhappy, and I that is a sad thing
about leave leaving Switzerland.
Obviously, I skied a lot there,and I have been to Ski Dubai,
and I'm very great, it's veryfun.
Uh, but it's not quite the samething there.
Um, but beyond that, yeah, it'ssports in all forms.
Obviously, as you get older, youknow, your knees start to give
(35:10):
up a little bit.
But uh yeah, football,basketball, all those sort of
things.
I've just, in fact, I've justdealt with an email.
I am now, I've agreed, which Iwill probably regret, to play in
a teacher versus studentbasketball match here at Dubai
College, uh, which is one of thebiggest events of the year.
Um, so yeah, that's that's gonnabe fun.
SPEAKER_01 (35:29):
Yeah, I think I think when it comes to
happiness, um, it could be thesimple things like a good sushi
meal or playing a game ofbasketball or or any anything
like that.
You know, people often think ithas to be a big thing, it could
be the smallest of things.
Um, what are you reading apartfrom Marcus Aurelis?
(35:50):
What are you reading?
SPEAKER_02 (35:51):
So I I've just finished uh I got obsessed with
the Wolf Hall trilogy, all threeof them.
So this they actually have justjust finished the third one.
Um bring out the bodies.
I think I've got them right inthe wrong order now because you
get one that but yeah, so andthat was all three of those,
each one of them is kind of 800words.
So the Thomas Cromwell, HillaryMantle thing.
Uh, so that's that's gonethrough that.
And then I've just started uh abook called Fox, uh, which is
(36:15):
not a very pleasant book, uh,and it's about uh the murder of
a uh murder of a pedophilicteacher, actually.
So it's uh it's not easyreading, uh I would say.
So uh yes, that that's what Ihave finished and that's what
I've moved on to, but I'm notenjoying the the current book as
much as I was at the last, I'llput it that way.
SPEAKER_01 (36:32):
And you've written what what were you what were you
writing about?
What was your book about so no?
SPEAKER_02 (36:39):
Well, I write so I one of my my previous work was
on uh the theory of knowledge.
So again, my degree is historyand politics, but particularly I
looked at political philosophy,uh was a real passion of mine,
moving into philosophy.
And then when I got into an IBschool uh in Brunei, a Gerald
International School, uh, I gotreally into theory of knowledge,
so epistemological philosophy.
(37:00):
And then I got more engaged withthat community, and then I was
asked by Cambridge to write theresource guide.
So I wrote that resource guide,which was which was fun, and
every now and then uh it's quitenice because essentially it's
planning how you teach thatcourse and how you should how
you know, even down to the themy niche eye of preparing for
the lessons and that sort ofstuff.
And every now and then I'll beit somewhere and someone will
say, Can I just say thank youvery much uh for the lessons and
(37:22):
the impact you provided for myTOK lessons?
Because T OK, when you start it,can be quite overwhelming
because you don't really knowwhat it is, it's so different to
other subjects.
Um, so I've had quite a fewpeople, it's very kind, who have
said, I just want to say thankyou because I didn't know what I
was doing and I read your book.
So, and then I'm supposed to bewriting a book on character
education currently, uh, whichis not going as well as I would
(37:44):
have hoped.
And you know, headmaster ofDubai College, uh, father of
young children, um, fitting inwriting a book is not not going
as well as it should be.
But I, you know, I even sayingthose things out loud to you, I
need to take my wife on a dateand I need to write my book.
Right?
There's my to-do list.
SPEAKER_01 (38:02):
Catherine, you can thank me later.
Um, we're wrapping up thepodcast.
So, what I wanted to end with isobviously your school is known,
but if you were, and I want youto don't give me the political,
I don't know what I would do.
(38:24):
Give me what you really thinkyou should do.
If you were leading a schoolthat required improvement in
this AI world with everythinggoing kind of crazy
education-wise, where would youstart?
SPEAKER_02 (38:41):
Yeah, I got a quite easy answer for this because I I
would apply the same process foreverything, which is philosophy,
people, process.
So I believe that any problem ineducation could be dealt with
those things.
So you start with a philosophy,you have to make sure that
you're on the same page.
You can't deal with uh comingfrom education from two totally
different points, we'll neverget past that.
(39:02):
Again, you know, the is sooutstanding, but actually, our
educational philosophies, she'sin charge of the learning here,
they are so aligned.
Uh, Debs, who's our safeguardingperson, again, our safeguarding
uh how we her, she and I, how wesee the role of safeguarding,
our works in safeguardingobviously extensively in
boarding.
You know, we're we're so alignedhere that I'm bringing and it's
(39:22):
a joy.
So you've got to get thephilosophy lined up first,
regardless of what the problemis.
You can't really get past thatpoint.
Then it's about people, and youhave to trust people.
You've got to get make sureyou've got the right people in
the room, all right?
So, and again, that sometimesleads to if you know in this
hypothetical example of a schoolthat needs improvement,
sometimes that means sayinggoodbye to people or moving
(39:43):
people to different areas or youknow, encouraging them to move
on, find their happinesselsewhere.
So you can't you can't doanything about that.
You can coach people, you candevelop them, but if they have a
different philosophy and they'renot prepared to take you on that
journey, then then you have tohave some tough conversations.
And then lastly, it's aboutprocess.
It really thing is abouteducation, is we don't have to
(40:03):
make it hard for teachers.
The most valuable point ofteaching, or education full sort
of the mo the highest value itemyou do is the relationship and
interaction based aroundlearning between the teacher and
the group of students.
That is the thing that mattersmost.
And we as educators and asschools find so many ways to get
(40:24):
in the way of that.
Um, so then you need to, Ireally feel this quite strongly
because it's quite sad whenyou're headmaster, you don't
teach or you teach very, verylittle.
Um, so you're away from that keypart.
But my purpose and my my wholeraison debt is to get in there
to to make sure that we can makeit focus on the main thing,
(40:44):
focus on learning, focus onrelationships, and we will try
and deal with everything else.
SPEAKER_01 (40:48):
Brilliant.
That's a great place to end thepod.
Thank you for being my guest,Tom.
SPEAKER_02 (40:53):
Thank you for having me.
And uh, yeah, I'll better goorganize a date.
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
Yes, you do.
Uh, I think I think you have anassignment for this long
weekend.
This this podcast listeners isbeing recorded on the Friday of
the long weekend, the prophet'sbirthday, and Thomas is in his
office.
So that's a very telltale signthat he needs to get out of his
office and go take Catherineout.
(41:18):
Thank you for being on the pod.
SPEAKER_02 (41:20):
Thank you very much.
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