May 11, 2025 • 21 mins
What makes a great educational leader, and how can coaching support those in challenging leadership positions? In this conversation with former school head turned leadership coach Caz Jude, we dive deep into the transformative power of leadership coaching in education.
Leadership can be isolating, especially in today's rapidly changing educational landscape. Caz shares how coaching provides school leaders with something essential yet often missing: a safe space to reflect honestly, celebrate successes, and work through challenges with someone genuinely invested in their development. "Don't teachers deserve to work for a leader that has a coach?" she asks, highlighting how a leader's emotional wellbeing directly impacts their entire school community.
With over twenty years of headship experience across the UK and the Middle East, Caz offers unique insights into leadership transitions, cultural adaptations, and recognising when it's time to pivot your career path. Her candid reflections on moving from traditional headship to coaching reveal valuable lessons about professional growth and avoiding burnout.
The conversation takes a particularly illuminating turn when addressing the specific challenges women face in educational leadership. Why do qualified women hesitate to put themselves forward for leadership roles? How can current leaders nurture the next generation of female leaders? Caz shares practical strategies for building confidence, developing powerful networks, and adopting a growth mindset that focuses on process rather than perfectionism.
Whether you're currently in a leadership position, aspiring to lead, or simply interested in educational dynamics, this episode offers valuable insights about authentic leadership, emotional intelligence, and creating supportive environments where everyone can thrive. Connect with Caz on LinkedIn or check out her new podcast "She Leads Because She Can" to continue exploring these important themes in educational leadership.
Bio: Caz Jude is a leadership coach dedicated to empowering female leaders to be the best version of themselves. She is also a co-presenter of the Podcast. ‘She Leads Because She Can’ with Sue Aspinall. Caz has over 30 years of experience as a headteacher, educational leader, teacher and school inspector in both the UK and international settings. A specialist in early years education, leadership, and management. She has led outstanding schools in the UK and internationally and is recognised globally for her heart leadership.
Connect with Caz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cazzie-jude-7496382b/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hey everyone, this is Lisa Grace, welcoming you back,
or welcoming you if this isyour first time listening to the
Teach Middle East podcast.
Welcoming you, if this is yourfirst time listening to the
Teach Middle East podcast.
My guest today is Kaz Jude, andshe is a former school leader,
now leadership coach, and wehave a lot to dive into Now.
I know that there's a lot oftalk about leadership at the
(00:39):
moment, about coaching, aboutwhat we need to be doing as
school leaders to make sure thatwe ourselves don't burn out,
that we don't end up in a placewhere we're not effective.
So Kaz and I are going to talkand we're going to get to know
each other and you're going toget to know Kaz as well.
(01:02):
Welcome to the podcast, kaz.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Thank you and I'm really glad to be here, very
excited to join you today.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Thank you for joining us Now.
I know that a lot of people,when they hear about leadership
coaching, they think it's notfor them.
So I'm just going to gostraight in and ask you why do
leaders need need coaches?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I can understand why people think it's not for them,
and I think there's some leadersit isn't.
I work with somebody.
She said I'm happy with who Iam, I'm happy the way I am and I
don't want to change and I'vegot no interest in having a
coach.
But then she was verysupportive me coaching of a
female, female leaders.
That was a really interestingconversation.
I think education has changed.
(01:47):
When I first became a headteacher in 2004, I had mentors
around me.
I had a wonderful schooladvisor.
He made sure I had two mentorstake care and look after me and
then that increased my networkand I had other people as a
young head who were moreexperienced, who really nurtured
me and developed me.
Now the situation's different,isn't it?
(02:11):
It's changed and I had a coacha couple of times.
Actually, I self-ventured acoach and it really made a
difference because they're thereto make you stop for a little
bit, reflect and see what you'redoing really well, so they're
like your own cheerleader andthen also help you when things
are really tough and really helpyou and pick what you're
(02:33):
finding challenging and help youfind those solutions from
within, and it just gives yousomebody who's really invested
in you and wants you to be thebest that you can be, and
sometimes I flip it.
Sometimes I think don'tteachers deserve to work for a
leader that has a coach and fromthat point of view, why do you
(02:55):
think teachers deserve to workfor a leader who has a coach?
I think if you've got a coach,it gives you somebody to talk to
, somebody to go and sound offabout, and you can actually say
unfiltered what you're reallythinking and just get something
out of your system.
But then that person's quiterational as well and they'll
help you restabilize yourselfand they'll re-energize you as
(03:18):
well and give you that extraoomph to keep going and help you
realize that you are doing thebest job that you can.
But it's such a hard job andyou're not perfect at it and you
do need support and love whilstyou're doing it.
And to have a leader that hasthat and has someone there
supporting them and holdingtheir hand, that helps the team
(03:39):
as well, doesn't it?
Because the more balanced youare, the calmer you are, the
more empathetic you are andemotionally intelligent you are,
the better you are at runningyour school, the more supportive
you are of your team.
And I know now a lot of leaderssay, oh, emotionally
intelligent leadership.
But actually really, what isemotionally intelligent
leadership?
It's about, when you'reemotionally intelligent, those
(04:01):
people in your team that youfind more challenging to lead
and manage.
That's what true emotional,intelligent leadership is about.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, I do also think that when you have a coach, you
learn techniques that help youto coach the people that you
have to work with.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yes, yes, it stops you from jumping in all the time
with solutions, becausenaturally, as leaders, we want
to give the solutions, don't?
We want to say, oh look, thisis what you need to do, this is
how you do, it be fine.
But actually, as a coach, itmakes you stop and ask those
questions because your solutionmight be right for you but might
not be right for that person.
So it makes you stop and reallylisten to what that person is
(04:45):
saying to you and telling youand helping you unpick.
And it also enables you to givetime to your team as well and
you start to understand thevalue of time and actually
stopping for half an hour andspending that time with that
person can actually reap rewards, more so than if you spent five
minutes engaging solution.
And what you're doing, by usingsome of your coaching
(05:06):
techniques that you're havingwith your team, is empowering
them to be the best that theycan be as well, and encouraging
them as well, and developingthem and supporting them, and
that's so very, very importantyeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Take me back to your time as a head.
How did you know that it wastime for you to make a move out
of headship?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
um, I think I reached the point, if I'm honest, when
I was like on the verge ofburnout.
I was becoming exhausted and Iwas also becoming very
interested in projects outsideof school as well, like the
coaching um, working on earlyyears, speaking at conferences
um, doing a little bit ofinspection work and
(05:50):
accreditation as well, andwidening what I was doing at the
school, and I felt that, yes,it could be my heart and soul to
it, but maybe it was just timeto take a leap of faith and go
in a slightly differentdirection.
And, after over 20 years ofheadship, maybe it was time to
move on and do somethingslightly different where I could
support and empower the nextgeneration of headteachers and
(06:13):
leaders coming through andreally make a difference to them
and help them be the best thatthey can be.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, talk to me about your time as a head.
What made the job memorable foryou?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
The people, definitely the people.
It was lovely to watch peoplegrow and develop in their roles.
So my staff I was originally ahead teacher, they were career
teachers, they were a lot olderthan me really experienced and
it was wonderful to give themopportunities to shine.
But being part of that team,part of that family, but really
(06:46):
like growing your own leaders aswell.
One of the first teachers, whowas an NQT when I was a headship
she's recently got her firstheadship and that was just
amazing to celebrate that she'dachieved that.
And it's giving something back,isn't it?
And it's nurturing your teamand looking after your team and
being there for you and givingthem opportunities to lead and
(07:07):
shine and uplifting them as welltell me where.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Where were you ahead and how long for?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
I was ahead in the UK in a school in Sully Hall, a
large infant school in SullyHall.
That was my first headship andthen, when I moved abroad, I did
two headships in Abu Dhabi andI went out to Qatar as well and
set up a school in Qatar and Iwas head of primary and vice
principal there and that was awonderful experience to do a
start-up school from scratch andmake it what you wanted to make
(07:37):
it, and working with a team ofNQTs at the time and training
and mentoring them was a realprivilege at the time, and
training and mentoring them wasa real privilege.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah, compare for me then, solihull, abu.
Dhabi.
What are the major differencesthat you noticed apart?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
from the weather.
Yeah, and I think there's lotsof similar similarities,
strangely enough, more thandifferences.
In both those situations I wasworking early years and early
years head teacher and had veryexperienced teams who are highly
motivated, who understood earlyyears education, worked really
(08:15):
very hard and also held you toaccount as a leader and wanted a
lot out of you as a leader,wanted you to be the best that
you could be, and they were bothvery dynamic teams and so
similar in so many ways.
It was just the fact you wereleading in a different country
and one was more multiculturalthan the other team, but because
(08:36):
they had the children at theheart of everything that they
did and they worked really hardand wanted to do the best, they
were very similar, reallysimilar, and you, if met them,
you'd think they were quitedifferent, but actually to lead
them, they were very similar andjust so passionate about what
they did and the conversationsthat you could have with them
were amazing and a lovely groupof women to lead but having very
(08:59):
high expectations of theleadership team.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, and your return to the UK.
What prompted that?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
It was just time to leave.
It was family circumstancesthat really were the catalyst
for it, and we didn't reallyhave much choice and we had to
move back, which actually isharder than moving abroad.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Why?
Let's dive into that a littlebit.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
I think things change .
It was just the little nuances,I think.
We came back and we had to moveback into our previous house
and it was different from howwe'd left it and the whole
experience has just been very,very strange and really
difficult to put into words andit was like almost like your
life had stopped and everybodyelse's life had moved forward.
(09:48):
And I went to my friend's housethat's most staffing.
She got this really lovelycarpet in her living room.
I was like, oh, that's a reallylovely carpet and it just it
was just a really strangefeeling and I can't explain what
it was about this carpet thatshe got.
But it's like, oh, that'sreally lovely.
And I think it's because we cameback and at the time we'd got
no furniture, we'd got nothing,and it was like the last 14
(10:11):
years hadn't happened and I hadto remind myself that I had to
reconnect, if you like, with myoverseas past to be able to move
forward again and realize thatI hadn't actually been sleeping
for 14 years.
But it was a very, very bizarreexperience.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
What do you think makes the transition back to the
UK so difficult, especially forpeople who would have lived in
the Middle East?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I think you do change .
I think you do change quite abit about realizing that you've
changed.
And when you come back, peopleare used to you not being around
, so you have to be veryproactive to move back into your
social circles and be part ofthat again.
And I think you've grown as aperson and you're not quite the
(10:55):
same person that you were whenyou left.
So that's very different.
And I think for me, the mainthing coming back was the
weather, which I hadn't realizedwhen I lived here.
But the winters are harsh and Ihadn't realized quite how harsh
the winters are.
Yeah, what?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
what part of England did you move back to?
Speaker 3 (11:13):
We moved back to near Birmingham and that's just
solely because we've got a househere.
So I don't think we've boughtback into coming back here in
the way that when you go abroadyou buy back into that area.
So we're thinking about wheredo we want to live in the
country.
So we're almost in a holdingpen, if you like, whilst we plan
what our next steps are goingto be and what we move on to,
(11:33):
and I think that's thedifference.
I think if you come backsomewhere, I'd be saying to
somebody oh, sell your house,you've got a house in the UK If
you're going to go back andchoose where you want to live
and buy a house where you wantto be before you come back, so
you've already started your newadventure.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, how long have you been back?
Um roughly about seven or eightmonths now, just about nearly
you're, you're.
You're soon, I think.
I think after maybe a year ortwo, you might feel a little bit
more settled.
I have to be honest, mylisteners, that's one of my
biggest fears is how do I moveback, if, if ever, to the UK and
(12:13):
what does that look like for usas a family?
And, if I'm upfront, it doesn'tlook like being there full time
.
It just doesn't, because I feellike I would want to always
have the option of not beingthere in the winter and I just
feel like I wouldn't be able tohack it for a full year.
(12:35):
And I also find what you'resaying is true.
So when we go back in thesummers, my friends, even though
we see each other and we loveand we have a good time, I feel
like there's a little bit of agap there and it's widening the
longer I've been away.
This is my 14th year going intomy 15th and the gap is widening
(12:55):
Every time I go back.
There is a little bit ofwidening of the gap in terms of
where I am and where they are,and it's nothing personal, it
just is All right, is all rightchanging gears.
If you were a brand new femaleleader, what would you be
looking to do to ensure that youhave longevity in this role?
Speaker 3 (13:21):
um, I would first of all like form really strong
relationships and strong bondswith my team.
That is important, that's sokey, and it's about walking the
talk, being values driven, butalso, what you say is what you
do and lead from the heart andbe very authentic and be your
true self.
And if you're not, people willsee straight through you
(13:43):
straight away.
So choose your leadership stylethat's right for you.
Don't do what's fashionable.
Do what's right for you andwhat's true.
And I'd also say that if you'reworking in an international
school, um, be aware that youhave to develop networks and
leaderships throughout theschool.
So think about how you're goingto be working with the board of
(14:03):
directors, the principal, theceo and the wider leadership
structure as well.
That's really key to yoursuccess.
So it's not just about leadingand developing your team.
It goes much wider than that,and I think that's the
difference between being a headin the UK and a head in an
international school, becausethey tend to be through schools.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, I agree with you in terms of that forming
that network and especiallymaking sure that you have allies
in all the different areas,because that's going to serve
you very well.
But then there are a group ofwomen who are just really not
(14:43):
putting themselves forward forleadership, and I'm not sure why
.
We talk a lot about it and wetalk about the divide between,
you know, male and femaleleadership, and the numbers and
the gaps, et cetera, but why arewomen not putting themselves
forward?
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I think with women this is just a very generalised
comment that with a man, if helooks job description, you can
do part of that job description.
He'll apply for the role.
With a woman, they tend to feelthat they've got to do it all
before they do apply.
Then I think there's a bit ofimposter syndrome creeping in
there.
There's a bit of lack ofconfidence.
There's also responsibilitieswith family life and everything
(15:26):
else going on.
But I think it's just abouthaving the confidence to push
yourself forward and think, well, why not?
What's the worst thing that'sgoing to happen to you?
The worst thing is they'regoing to say no.
And if you do it and actuallythink, actually this ship's not
for me, well, you can alwaystake a step back and say, well,
at least I tried it and I had togo.
But also I think as leaderswe've got a duty of care to the
(15:49):
next generation of leaderscoming through and we should be
uplifting women in our teams andencouraging them and
celebrating what they do well.
And as a leader, if you're partof a wider leadership team,
it's not taking the celebrationand kudos for yourself, but
actually saying oh no, so-and-soled on that they did a really
good job and celebrating theachievements of people within
(16:11):
your team.
So as you uplift your team,you're actually uplifting
yourself as well.
I think it's really importantthat we do that, and I don't
think enough of that is done.
So, therefore, I always feelthat our team is as confident as
they should.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
And I also think a lot of the times because as
women, we have so many otherresponsibilities outside of
school.
We often worry that are wegoing to be able to manage to
fulfill all the roles that we doeffectively?
You know that of wife andmother and sister and daughter
(16:46):
and partner, and then leader.
It's just this extra bit on top, whereas a man does it because
he knows I have a wife who willsupport me and so my focus is on
this and they can know thateverything else is taken care of
, whereas the woman has to alsothink of those responsibilities
(17:08):
as well as thinking about whereshe fits on the leadership
spectrum.
I wanted to, as we get down tothe tail end of the podcast,
talk to you about some of thethings that you have noticed
that are gaps in terms ofdevelopment for women in
(17:29):
leadership.
Where are the gaps?
What are women needing?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Yeah, I think women are needing to grab any
opportunity that comes towardsthem and make the most of it.
And I think sometimes you'reright we say, oh no, I can't do
that course, and often it's dueto family and balancing family.
So it's making the most of anyopportunity, being proactive and
also working together, workingin partnership.
(17:53):
More together Together, we'remuch stronger.
It more together, together,we're much stronger.
So it's having an ally, if youlike, to work with a partner in
crime to help lift one anotherup, and it's developing each
other.
So, if you're a leader, I'vealways led with quite a flat
structure, so I'm quite happy ifI'm out of school.
Even if I'm in school, I don'tmind if, like my deputy head or
(18:15):
my assistant head sits at mydesk, it doesn't bother me
things like that or no, I'llcome in and if they're sitting
there, I'll go and sit somewhereelse.
And it's that co-leadership andallowing them to make decisions
as well and standing by thedecisions that they've made.
And so this co-leadership andworking in partnership I don't
think we do enough of that.
And then that's giving thepeople leadership skills, about
(18:38):
them always realizing andsupporting them, and it's that
belief, isn't it?
I think women sometimes lackthat.
Actually they can do the joband they can do the job really
well.
So give it a go, why not?
But you've got to be confidentenough to drive yourself forward
and we've all got a bit ofimposter syndrome, but we all
(19:01):
know that.
But actually just try and batit away and say, oh, go and give
it a go and not listen to it,or listen to it and then shove
it to one side but actuallythink I've listened to you, but
I disagree.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I'm going to go for this and go for it and do it
yeah, I think when it comes toimposter syndrome and we're
never going to get rid of it,but I think we just tell
ourselves we'll do it anyway,we'll give it a go anyway, and
don't get too attached to theresults, because when you get so
attached to the results, that'swhen you get anxious, but just
(19:34):
get more attached to the processand the learning and the growth
that comes from just givingthings a go right.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Oh, I really like that.
Attach yourself to the processand the growth.
That's what it's about, isn'tit?
Because we all get things wrong, we all make mistakes.
We've all had moments wherewe're just sort of dying,
thinking, oh, I just don'tbelieve it.
But actually that's what thejourney's about, and some people
just brush things off like that, quite simply, others of it
(20:03):
really internalize it.
Yeah, but we learn to think.
That's part of our growth, partof our development.
We made a mistake because wedidn't know what we didn't know
exactly what we didn't know.
We didn't know what we didn'tknow Exactly.
Take it forward with you andgive it a go.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So, kaz, now that you're back in the UK, what are
you working on?
What are you up to?
What's on the horizon?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
There's quite a few things on the horizon.
I'm coaching coaching mainlywomen and uplifting them.
I'm mentoring teachers at thestart of their career as well.
I'm mentoring teachers at thestart of their career as well.
I'm doing some assessment workas well, some moderation work,
some inspection work, someschool improvement work.
I'm an advisory member of theWISE board, empowering female
(20:50):
leaders across the world.
And then recently, I've juststarted a podcast with Sue
Astinol called she Leads Becauseshe Can, to empower the next
generation of female leaders.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Brilliant.
Sounds like you're quite busy.
I will leave links to yourLinkedIn or wherever you can get
contacted and also maybe linkto the podcast so people can
check it out.
But it's been a pleasure havingyou on the podcast and I know
that when it comes to empoweringfemale leaders, it's a work
(21:23):
that continues.
So good luck and all the bestin the work that you are
embarking on.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Thank you so much and it's been so lovely to be here
today and I've really enjoyed it.
Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
Visit our websiteteachmiddleeastcom and follow us
on social media.
The links are in the show notes.
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hey everyone, this is Lisa Grace, welcoming you back,
or welcoming you if this isyour first time listening to the
Teach Middle East podcast.
Welcoming you, if this is yourfirst time listening to the
Teach Middle East podcast.
My guest today is Kaz Jude, andshe is a former school leader,
now leadership coach, and wehave a lot to dive into Now.
I know that there's a lot oftalk about leadership at the
(00:39):
moment, about coaching, aboutwhat we need to be doing as
school leaders to make sure thatwe ourselves don't burn out,
that we don't end up in a placewhere we're not effective.
So Kaz and I are going to talkand we're going to get to know
each other and you're going toget to know Kaz as well.
(01:02):
Welcome to the podcast, kaz.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Thank you and I'm really glad to be here, very
excited to join you today.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Thank you for joining us Now.
I know that a lot of people,when they hear about leadership
coaching, they think it's notfor them.
So I'm just going to gostraight in and ask you why do
leaders need need coaches?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I can understand why people think it's not for them,
and I think there's some leadersit isn't.
I work with somebody.
She said I'm happy with who Iam, I'm happy the way I am and I
don't want to change and I'vegot no interest in having a
coach.
But then she was verysupportive me coaching of a
female, female leaders.
That was a really interestingconversation.
I think education has changed.
(01:47):
When I first became a headteacher in 2004, I had mentors
around me.
I had a wonderful schooladvisor.
He made sure I had two mentorstake care and look after me and
then that increased my networkand I had other people as a
young head who were moreexperienced, who really nurtured
me and developed me.
Now the situation's different,isn't it?
(02:11):
It's changed and I had a coacha couple of times.
Actually, I self-ventured acoach and it really made a
difference because they're thereto make you stop for a little
bit, reflect and see what you'redoing really well, so they're
like your own cheerleader andthen also help you when things
are really tough and really helpyou and pick what you're
(02:33):
finding challenging and help youfind those solutions from
within, and it just gives yousomebody who's really invested
in you and wants you to be thebest that you can be, and
sometimes I flip it.
Sometimes I think don'tteachers deserve to work for a
leader that has a coach and fromthat point of view, why do you
(02:55):
think teachers deserve to workfor a leader who has a coach?
I think if you've got a coach,it gives you somebody to talk to
, somebody to go and sound offabout, and you can actually say
unfiltered what you're reallythinking and just get something
out of your system.
But then that person's quiterational as well and they'll
help you restabilize yourselfand they'll re-energize you as
(03:18):
well and give you that extraoomph to keep going and help you
realize that you are doing thebest job that you can.
But it's such a hard job andyou're not perfect at it and you
do need support and love whilstyou're doing it.
And to have a leader that hasthat and has someone there
supporting them and holdingtheir hand, that helps the team
(03:39):
as well, doesn't it?
Because the more balanced youare, the calmer you are, the
more empathetic you are andemotionally intelligent you are,
the better you are at runningyour school, the more supportive
you are of your team.
And I know now a lot of leaderssay, oh, emotionally
intelligent leadership.
But actually really, what isemotionally intelligent
leadership?
It's about, when you'reemotionally intelligent, those
(04:01):
people in your team that youfind more challenging to lead
and manage.
That's what true emotional,intelligent leadership is about.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, I do also think that when you have a coach, you
learn techniques that help youto coach the people that you
have to work with.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yes, yes, it stops you from jumping in all the time
with solutions, becausenaturally, as leaders, we want
to give the solutions, don't?
We want to say, oh look, thisis what you need to do, this is
how you do, it be fine.
But actually, as a coach, itmakes you stop and ask those
questions because your solutionmight be right for you but might
not be right for that person.
So it makes you stop and reallylisten to what that person is
(04:45):
saying to you and telling youand helping you unpick.
And it also enables you to givetime to your team as well and
you start to understand thevalue of time and actually
stopping for half an hour andspending that time with that
person can actually reap rewards, more so than if you spent five
minutes engaging solution.
And what you're doing, by usingsome of your coaching
(05:06):
techniques that you're havingwith your team, is empowering
them to be the best that theycan be as well, and encouraging
them as well, and developingthem and supporting them, and
that's so very, very importantyeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Take me back to your time as a head.
How did you know that it wastime for you to make a move out
of headship?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
um, I think I reached the point, if I'm honest, when
I was like on the verge ofburnout.
I was becoming exhausted and Iwas also becoming very
interested in projects outsideof school as well, like the
coaching um, working on earlyyears, speaking at conferences
um, doing a little bit ofinspection work and
(05:50):
accreditation as well, andwidening what I was doing at the
school, and I felt that, yes,it could be my heart and soul to
it, but maybe it was just timeto take a leap of faith and go
in a slightly differentdirection.
And, after over 20 years ofheadship, maybe it was time to
move on and do somethingslightly different where I could
support and empower the nextgeneration of headteachers and
(06:13):
leaders coming through andreally make a difference to them
and help them be the best thatthey can be.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, talk to me about your time as a head.
What made the job memorable foryou?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
The people, definitely the people.
It was lovely to watch peoplegrow and develop in their roles.
So my staff I was originally ahead teacher, they were career
teachers, they were a lot olderthan me really experienced and
it was wonderful to give themopportunities to shine.
But being part of that team,part of that family, but really
(06:46):
like growing your own leaders aswell.
One of the first teachers, whowas an NQT when I was a headship
she's recently got her firstheadship and that was just
amazing to celebrate that she'dachieved that.
And it's giving something back,isn't it?
And it's nurturing your teamand looking after your team and
being there for you and givingthem opportunities to lead and
(07:07):
shine and uplifting them as welltell me where.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Where were you ahead and how long for?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
I was ahead in the UK in a school in Sully Hall, a
large infant school in SullyHall.
That was my first headship andthen, when I moved abroad, I did
two headships in Abu Dhabi andI went out to Qatar as well and
set up a school in Qatar and Iwas head of primary and vice
principal there and that was awonderful experience to do a
start-up school from scratch andmake it what you wanted to make
(07:37):
it, and working with a team ofNQTs at the time and training
and mentoring them was a realprivilege at the time, and
training and mentoring them wasa real privilege.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah, compare for me then, solihull, abu.
Dhabi.
What are the major differencesthat you noticed apart?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
from the weather.
Yeah, and I think there's lotsof similar similarities,
strangely enough, more thandifferences.
In both those situations I wasworking early years and early
years head teacher and had veryexperienced teams who are highly
motivated, who understood earlyyears education, worked really
(08:15):
very hard and also held you toaccount as a leader and wanted a
lot out of you as a leader,wanted you to be the best that
you could be, and they were bothvery dynamic teams and so
similar in so many ways.
It was just the fact you wereleading in a different country
and one was more multiculturalthan the other team, but because
(08:36):
they had the children at theheart of everything that they
did and they worked really hardand wanted to do the best, they
were very similar, reallysimilar, and you, if met them,
you'd think they were quitedifferent, but actually to lead
them, they were very similar andjust so passionate about what
they did and the conversationsthat you could have with them
were amazing and a lovely groupof women to lead but having very
(08:59):
high expectations of theleadership team.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, and your return to the UK.
What prompted that?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
It was just time to leave.
It was family circumstancesthat really were the catalyst
for it, and we didn't reallyhave much choice and we had to
move back, which actually isharder than moving abroad.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Why?
Let's dive into that a littlebit.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
I think things change .
It was just the little nuances,I think.
We came back and we had to moveback into our previous house
and it was different from howwe'd left it and the whole
experience has just been very,very strange and really
difficult to put into words andit was like almost like your
life had stopped and everybodyelse's life had moved forward.
(09:48):
And I went to my friend's housethat's most staffing.
She got this really lovelycarpet in her living room.
I was like, oh, that's a reallylovely carpet and it just it
was just a really strangefeeling and I can't explain what
it was about this carpet thatshe got.
But it's like, oh, that'sreally lovely.
And I think it's because we cameback and at the time we'd got
no furniture, we'd got nothing,and it was like the last 14
(10:11):
years hadn't happened and I hadto remind myself that I had to
reconnect, if you like, with myoverseas past to be able to move
forward again and realize thatI hadn't actually been sleeping
for 14 years.
But it was a very, very bizarreexperience.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
What do you think makes the transition back to the
UK so difficult, especially forpeople who would have lived in
the Middle East?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I think you do change .
I think you do change quite abit about realizing that you've
changed.
And when you come back, peopleare used to you not being around
, so you have to be veryproactive to move back into your
social circles and be part ofthat again.
And I think you've grown as aperson and you're not quite the
(10:55):
same person that you were whenyou left.
So that's very different.
And I think for me, the mainthing coming back was the
weather, which I hadn't realizedwhen I lived here.
But the winters are harsh and Ihadn't realized quite how harsh
the winters are.
Yeah, what?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
what part of England did you move back to?
Speaker 3 (11:13):
We moved back to near Birmingham and that's just
solely because we've got a househere.
So I don't think we've boughtback into coming back here in
the way that when you go abroadyou buy back into that area.
So we're thinking about wheredo we want to live in the
country.
So we're almost in a holdingpen, if you like, whilst we plan
what our next steps are goingto be and what we move on to,
(11:33):
and I think that's thedifference.
I think if you come backsomewhere, I'd be saying to
somebody oh, sell your house,you've got a house in the UK If
you're going to go back andchoose where you want to live
and buy a house where you wantto be before you come back, so
you've already started your newadventure.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, how long have you been back?
Um roughly about seven or eightmonths now, just about nearly
you're, you're.
You're soon, I think.
I think after maybe a year ortwo, you might feel a little bit
more settled.
I have to be honest, mylisteners, that's one of my
biggest fears is how do I moveback, if, if ever, to the UK and
(12:13):
what does that look like for usas a family?
And, if I'm upfront, it doesn'tlook like being there full time
.
It just doesn't, because I feellike I would want to always
have the option of not beingthere in the winter and I just
feel like I wouldn't be able tohack it for a full year.
(12:35):
And I also find what you'resaying is true.
So when we go back in thesummers, my friends, even though
we see each other and we loveand we have a good time, I feel
like there's a little bit of agap there and it's widening the
longer I've been away.
This is my 14th year going intomy 15th and the gap is widening
(12:55):
Every time I go back.
There is a little bit ofwidening of the gap in terms of
where I am and where they are,and it's nothing personal, it
just is All right, is all rightchanging gears.
If you were a brand new femaleleader, what would you be
looking to do to ensure that youhave longevity in this role?
Speaker 3 (13:21):
um, I would first of all like form really strong
relationships and strong bondswith my team.
That is important, that's sokey, and it's about walking the
talk, being values driven, butalso, what you say is what you
do and lead from the heart andbe very authentic and be your
true self.
And if you're not, people willsee straight through you
(13:43):
straight away.
So choose your leadership stylethat's right for you.
Don't do what's fashionable.
Do what's right for you andwhat's true.
And I'd also say that if you'reworking in an international
school, um, be aware that youhave to develop networks and
leaderships throughout theschool.
So think about how you're goingto be working with the board of
(14:03):
directors, the principal, theceo and the wider leadership
structure as well.
That's really key to yoursuccess.
So it's not just about leadingand developing your team.
It goes much wider than that,and I think that's the
difference between being a headin the UK and a head in an
international school, becausethey tend to be through schools.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, I agree with you in terms of that forming
that network and especiallymaking sure that you have allies
in all the different areas,because that's going to serve
you very well.
But then there are a group ofwomen who are just really not
(14:43):
putting themselves forward forleadership, and I'm not sure why
.
We talk a lot about it and wetalk about the divide between,
you know, male and femaleleadership, and the numbers and
the gaps, et cetera, but why arewomen not putting themselves
forward?
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I think with women this is just a very generalised
comment that with a man, if helooks job description, you can
do part of that job description.
He'll apply for the role.
With a woman, they tend to feelthat they've got to do it all
before they do apply.
Then I think there's a bit ofimposter syndrome creeping in
there.
There's a bit of lack ofconfidence.
There's also responsibilitieswith family life and everything
(15:26):
else going on.
But I think it's just abouthaving the confidence to push
yourself forward and think, well, why not?
What's the worst thing that'sgoing to happen to you?
The worst thing is they'regoing to say no.
And if you do it and actuallythink, actually this ship's not
for me, well, you can alwaystake a step back and say, well,
at least I tried it and I had togo.
But also I think as leaderswe've got a duty of care to the
(15:49):
next generation of leaderscoming through and we should be
uplifting women in our teams andencouraging them and
celebrating what they do well.
And as a leader, if you're partof a wider leadership team,
it's not taking the celebrationand kudos for yourself, but
actually saying oh no, so-and-soled on that they did a really
good job and celebrating theachievements of people within
(16:11):
your team.
So as you uplift your team,you're actually uplifting
yourself as well.
I think it's really importantthat we do that, and I don't
think enough of that is done.
So, therefore, I always feelthat our team is as confident as
they should.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
And I also think a lot of the times because as
women, we have so many otherresponsibilities outside of
school.
We often worry that are wegoing to be able to manage to
fulfill all the roles that we doeffectively?
You know that of wife andmother and sister and daughter
(16:46):
and partner, and then leader.
It's just this extra bit on top, whereas a man does it because
he knows I have a wife who willsupport me and so my focus is on
this and they can know thateverything else is taken care of
, whereas the woman has to alsothink of those responsibilities
(17:08):
as well as thinking about whereshe fits on the leadership
spectrum.
I wanted to, as we get down tothe tail end of the podcast,
talk to you about some of thethings that you have noticed
that are gaps in terms ofdevelopment for women in
(17:29):
leadership.
Where are the gaps?
What are women needing?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Yeah, I think women are needing to grab any
opportunity that comes towardsthem and make the most of it.
And I think sometimes you'reright we say, oh no, I can't do
that course, and often it's dueto family and balancing family.
So it's making the most of anyopportunity, being proactive and
also working together, workingin partnership.
(17:53):
More together Together, we'remuch stronger.
It more together, together,we're much stronger.
So it's having an ally, if youlike, to work with a partner in
crime to help lift one anotherup, and it's developing each
other.
So, if you're a leader, I'vealways led with quite a flat
structure, so I'm quite happy ifI'm out of school.
Even if I'm in school, I don'tmind if, like my deputy head or
(18:15):
my assistant head sits at mydesk, it doesn't bother me
things like that or no, I'llcome in and if they're sitting
there, I'll go and sit somewhereelse.
And it's that co-leadership andallowing them to make decisions
as well and standing by thedecisions that they've made.
And so this co-leadership andworking in partnership I don't
think we do enough of that.
And then that's giving thepeople leadership skills, about
(18:38):
them always realizing andsupporting them, and it's that
belief, isn't it?
I think women sometimes lackthat.
Actually they can do the joband they can do the job really
well.
So give it a go, why not?
But you've got to be confidentenough to drive yourself forward
and we've all got a bit ofimposter syndrome, but we all
(19:01):
know that.
But actually just try and batit away and say, oh, go and give
it a go and not listen to it,or listen to it and then shove
it to one side but actuallythink I've listened to you, but
I disagree.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I'm going to go for this and go for it and do it
yeah, I think when it comes toimposter syndrome and we're
never going to get rid of it,but I think we just tell
ourselves we'll do it anyway,we'll give it a go anyway, and
don't get too attached to theresults, because when you get so
attached to the results, that'swhen you get anxious, but just
(19:34):
get more attached to the processand the learning and the growth
that comes from just givingthings a go right.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Oh, I really like that.
Attach yourself to the processand the growth.
That's what it's about, isn'tit?
Because we all get things wrong, we all make mistakes.
We've all had moments wherewe're just sort of dying,
thinking, oh, I just don'tbelieve it.
But actually that's what thejourney's about, and some people
just brush things off like that, quite simply, others of it
(20:03):
really internalize it.
Yeah, but we learn to think.
That's part of our growth, partof our development.
We made a mistake because wedidn't know what we didn't know
exactly what we didn't know.
We didn't know what we didn'tknow Exactly.
Take it forward with you andgive it a go.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So, kaz, now that you're back in the UK, what are
you working on?
What are you up to?
What's on the horizon?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
There's quite a few things on the horizon.
I'm coaching coaching mainlywomen and uplifting them.
I'm mentoring teachers at thestart of their career as well.
I'm mentoring teachers at thestart of their career as well.
I'm doing some assessment workas well, some moderation work,
some inspection work, someschool improvement work.
I'm an advisory member of theWISE board, empowering female
(20:50):
leaders across the world.
And then recently, I've juststarted a podcast with Sue
Astinol called she Leads Becauseshe Can, to empower the next
generation of female leaders.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Brilliant.
Sounds like you're quite busy.
I will leave links to yourLinkedIn or wherever you can get
contacted and also maybe linkto the podcast so people can
check it out.
But it's been a pleasure havingyou on the podcast and I know
that when it comes to empoweringfemale leaders, it's a work
(21:23):
that continues.
So good luck and all the bestin the work that you are
embarking on.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Thank you so much and it's been so lovely to be here
today and I've really enjoyed it.
Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
Visit our websiteteachmiddleeastcom and follow us
on social media.
The links are in the show notes.
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