March 2, 2025 • 22 mins
Discover the challenges and rewards of school leadership through the personal journey of Daniel Mchugh, a former corporate professional. We delve into topics ranging from the importance of work-life balance to effective delegation and systematic change in educational institutions.
Guest hosted by Zoubiya Ahmed
Connect with Zoubiya at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoubiya/
- Transitioning from corporate to education leadership
- The necessity of taking breaks in a leadership role
- Finding a balance between short-term tasks and long-term goals
- The power of delegation and building future leaders
- Navigating systematic change within schools
- The importance of feedback and creating a supportive environment
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hi Dan, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm very well, zuby, delighted to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Excellent.
We're at the Middle East SchoolLeadership Conference and the
theme is Building legacy Yep andleading forward fantastic.
Please tell me what brought youto school leadership.
From my understanding, you're aschool leader in a lane yeah
what brought you to leadershipand then what brought you to
(00:39):
this part of the world well,okay, I wasn't always a school
leader.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I initially went into the corporate world and ended
up having my own business.
But my wife and I talked anawful lot about teaching and how
she felt I'd be a great schoolteacher and school reader.
And my mom was a teacher aswell.
She's always a role model to me.
So I made the leap sort of 12years ago and have looked back
since, I suppose getting a bitof a head start, a bit of a leg
(01:10):
up.
Quite early on in my teachingcareer, the school leadership
team at the school I was at saidyou should move into leadership
, and they gave me thatopportunity, and I think that's
one thing that I've learned isis to grasp those opportunities
when they come your way.
How we've ended up here?
Well, this is our 11th year inthe middle east.
We've been in jordan, we'vebeen in bahrain and now in the
uae, and we love it.
We love the hospitality, welove the variety of things, the
(01:33):
music and the nature, of course,up in ala, and that's fantastic
.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
So, yeah, we're very fortunate, the garden city yeah,
yeah, brilliant, I'm justcandid question.
Yeah, did you feel like youtook a financial hit from
switching from corporate toeducation?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yes, yeah, I did take a hit, but I suppose two things
.
I've been able to set ourselvesup quite well in the UK from
working very long hours andhaving my own business.
But you do realise that Isuppose it was that moment for
me.
I was early 30s.
My wife has just told me thatwe're expecting our first child
and you think money isn'teverything and staying up all
(02:12):
hours isn't everything and wewanted a better balance of life
and school leadership is hard,but I do get some of those
holidays in order to go andspend time with my own family
that maybe I wouldn't have hadso much of if I was still trying
to build my own business.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I think the survival, the nature of the job and I
mentioned this earlier but thewashing machine of leadership,
yeah, we need those pausesbetween the cycles, otherwise
it's actually not possible tosustain school leadership
without taking those pauses.
And legacy and building otherleaders, leaders supporting
others is that whole empty cuptheory.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
We wouldn't be able to do it without those pauses
yeah, you have to, and, foranyone who is a school leader
and watching this, just do takeview those holidays as a sort of
sacrosanct and you have to gettime with your family, with your
friends.
You have to turn the emails offbecause you'll find that longer
term you're working at 80capacity all of the time but, if
(03:11):
you can work at 100 capacity 85percent of the time, it's a
better outcome for everybody.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
It's that Pareto principle.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I think so yeah excellent.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
so our first question we went through the cards
together and selected some ofthe conversation starter
questions, which was a neatfeature of this conference and
the question we selected was howdo you balance?
So we were talking about Paretoand being efficient as a leader
, but how do you balanceshort-term pressures with
long-term legacy building?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And the reason I chose it is it's such a deep
question to think about.
I was just saying earlier inyour talk I did that we speak
about us being school leadersand leadership is a core aspect
of what we do, but the bread andbutter of what we do is
management, and we manage messesand often we feel like we're
firefighting and we're runningaround on a daily basis trying
(04:01):
to deal with the latest thingthat comes our way, trying to
deal with the latest thing thatcomes our way.
It's really important for me tobook time away from that and, um
, to get out and and be free ofthe firefighting in order to
think what is the direction thatI'm looking for the school to
go, where do I feel we are onthat journey and what are we
(04:23):
going to do to push ourselvestowards it?
And an event like this is sogood for that, because you get
to hear such exciting ideas fromother people and leaders in the
space from all over the worldand you get to speak to vendors
as well, and you think, okay,there may be things that we can
do, but I think, in terms oflegacy specifically, a lot of
that requires me to step backand think about those leaders
(04:46):
that I am developing and am Igiving them the right
opportunities as well?
So, just recently, there's acouple of members of staff who I
think are now ready to step up,to start doing a lot more
interviewing and a lot moredecision making over the teams
that we build within the school,and so casting that type of
responsibility, with trainingand support, over to them allows
me to step back, but I know I'mhelping to build that legacy
(05:10):
because after I've gone they cando that in the same way that I
would do, and that's soimportant.
Continuity sure you'rerecruiting in the same way and
hiring the right sort of peoplefor your school yeah, I think
it's.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
if we have the analogy of a pizza production
line and you're putting all thetoppings and if you're doing
every stage of that, yeah, ifyou're needing the dough and
you're putting the toppings andyou're doing the baking.
We've seen, I've seen enoughreality tv shows to know that
the teams that don't do it wellare the ones who are trying.
(05:43):
Where everyone is trying to doall of it, oh yeah.
And where there's a cleardirection, where the leader is
there supporting everybody butcoordinating the efforts and the
passion and the vision andenabling everyone to do a really
strong management of the task,yeah, those are the teams that
(06:04):
thrive.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
For sure.
And to continue that analogy,you've got pizza toppers waiting
, a really strong management ofthe task.
Those are the teams that thriveFor sure.
And then, to continue thatanalogy, you've got pizza
toppers waiting.
And I think one of the thingsthat I learned, probably in my
first year, few years ofleadership within schools I was
used to it was my own business,but it was a much smaller team
and I was much more hands-on andwhat I realized is that you
have to let go and you have todelegate, and you get to a point
(06:29):
, I think early on in yourleadership career, where you're
a bit uncomfortable aboutpassing things on and you think
that you're overloading them.
You do give them that work,work.
And the way you overcome thatpotential reservation is to talk
with them and say look, I wantto give this to you.
Do you feel ready for it?
Do you feel you have the timefor it?
Delegation done well is stillabout two-way communication and
(06:53):
making sure that you're inregular contact with that person
who's assumed thatresponsibility.
And certainly within our school, I'd like to think that we're
developing some phenomenalteachers who I hope will be far
better school leaders than I am,because they're starting early
and we think we're giving themthe right support.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I think the definition of being effective as
a leader.
Sometimes what happens is thatpeople get fixated on being
perfect rather than effective,and making controlled explosion
mistakes is one way leaders canensure that their teams are
(07:27):
developing, but it's controlledlike.
You can make some mistakes withthis.
So those are the ones that wecan delegate out, but there are
some clearly somenon-negotiables that need to be
up certain standard at all times.
But a curriculum initiative orsome form of pastoral project,
there are some spaces for peopleto be creative and take
(07:50):
ownership.
So that's lovely and it's goodto hear that you found your
delegative spirit.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yes, I'm glad to apologize to any staff who work
with me.
Sorry about that.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Sorry for the micromanaging.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Likewise sorry for here you go.
I've got a great initiative,but I think you'd be great at
leading yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Lovely.
So moving on, and it leadsquite nicely with what we're
talking about what approacheshave proven most effective in
leading systematic change?
And I feel like this is almostan oxymoron systematic and
change.
Yes, change is messy yeah, itis change is messy, but
systematic change is possible itis and you've got three levels.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Really in a school you have the events.
Underlying those events are thebehavior and the behavior
patterns, but it's actually yoursystems that are the deeper
structures within the school andthey lead to the behavior that
leads to the events.
So systematic change is hard.
It's really hard and yeah, andnot just for you as the school
leader, because if you're goingto get systematic change,
(08:56):
everybody needs to be involvedin and that can be one of the
hardest things.
And I think if I was going togive advice about how you start
that big systematic change andhave confidence it's going to be
successful, it's about makingsure that everybody is on that
bus and so making sure that youfind your evangelists and you
(09:17):
find your people ready to runthe pilot and go and tell staff
that is working.
And I would also advise justmake sure that if you're going
to find your evangelist, try andchoose some of your bellwether
staff, the ones who will say ithow it is, the ones who might
grumble about certain things andthe ones whose initial reaction
is change, I don't like it.
(09:38):
And if you can bring some ofthose staff on board and get
them championing, then theothers around it will say, look,
this member of staff is sayingit's going to work.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
It can be a bit of a hard sell though.
Oh, of course.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
But candor, a bit of time with them, will work.
And I remember a particularmiddle leader where I sat down
and was very candid and I said Iwant this to work because I
know that the evidence and theresearch base says it is one of
the most effective ways of CPD.
I know that a lot of staff aregoing to come to you in the
(10:09):
coming weeks.
They're going to come to you inthe corridors and they're going
to say what do you think of this?
I want to show you that it'sworking and it's effective and
it can be really powerful for us.
So let's do that first beforethere's any danger that you
immediately naysay it.
And to be fair to this leader,he got on board with it and he
(10:30):
moved from grudgingly saying Ican see some value in it to
actually being one of the mosteffective instructional coaches
that we had in school, of themost effective instructional
coaches that we had in school.
And so I would say, just to putit in a nutshell make it
collaborative, get yourevangelical staff on board, but
look for those bellwethers, andif you can persuade one or two
(10:51):
bellwethers, the rest will comealong with it sometimes it's the
front loading of the hard workso that the easy work becomes
systematic, knowing that you'regoing to have key voices that
can dilute the effectivenessthrough the way that they
interpret or criticize.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Sometimes those criticisms are valid, but
because they're given the newstoo late about the initiative,
it then comes across critical,whereas if those voices are
given pre-views of what's tocome, sometimes their insights
actually benefit because they'llsay I don't like this about it,
(11:34):
but this might also be aproblem.
So if we're incorporating themat the ideation stage,
pre-implementation, they thenenable an implementation that's
going to have a higher chance ofsuccess compared to the other
way around, but it's more work.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Of course it is, and that front loading is crucial
the design, the thought thatgoes behind it.
When we introduce big changes,they're evidence based.
That means that we're going todo research.
We're going to not just look atthe research based body of
knowledge, but we're going tosurvey different stakeholders
the students, different groupsof teachers, parents and make
(12:11):
sure that we're getting an ideaof what we think will work in
our context, but I think also inchange, especially, but in all
things.
If you're a school leader,stifle your ego because you are
surrounded by experts.
And when you spend six monthsdesigning some sort of change
program and the first time youintroduce it to the middle
(12:34):
leaders or the group of staffthat might be leading on it and
they point out flaws in it, veryeasy then to say you are being
negative about it.
Yeah, that's not necessarilythe case.
It's that they want it tosucceed and they're pointing out
very good things.
So what I found is helpful is,whenever I do have those
conversations and they're givingme constructive feedback, never
(12:57):
respond to it immediately.
I go home, I mull over itbecause I'm brushing my teeth at
night, come back fresh in themorning with a more objective
view rather than having risen toor felt it's an affront to you
and your plans.
So just being patient as wellwith the feedback that you're
getting.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I think it's another thing that we, when we design
something, anything, we havethis creator, creative spirit
that we've created thismasterpiece yes and when we
create that, we put the time andhours into it.
We feel that those hours willsomehow be squandered because
when we receive the criticism,it means that those hours were
(13:37):
not well spent or that someone'squestioning your mastery of
educational leadership when inactual fact, they're
pragmatizing what is a plan,they're playing it out in their
mind, at their level, andproviding you with key red flags
before they come about.
So it's really important thatleaders, when we get that flare,
(14:00):
that emotional flare ofresponse, to just pause in the
uncomfortable space of feelingsomething, yeah, to just stay
there composed and allow.
Yeah, you do feel like, oh,I've spent so long on it, they
weren't, they didn't love it.
You feel some sort of irk yeahon it, but then later.
(14:21):
That's not why you're creatingit in the first place.
You're not creating it, so yourteam say I love it.
Yeah, you're creating it, sothat's effective in the school,
yeah, so it's lovely that you'veprovided that story how often
do we tell students failure isyour greatest teacher?
Speaker 1 (14:34):
mistakes matter, and as school leaders, we need to
apply those same principles too.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
It's not always going to and it's never going to go
right immediately absolutelyyour point that you mentioned
earlier about potentially havingan a slightly smaller team and
then having to open out that.
That the way that you lead anddelegate.
An example comes to mind ofwhere we talked about mistakes
just now where, if you're abasketball coach, are you
(15:00):
expecting your new recruit who'sgot the potential to be your
star player?
Are we expecting them to dunkthe basketball every single shot
?
Yeah, when you first startcoaching them or mentoring or
leading them?
No, and is it that the firsttime they miss that you tell
them you missed?
yeah no, you're going to say howclose they are from getting it
(15:21):
in.
You're you're that close togetting it in?
This was great, your arms weregreat, your technique, but how
about this?
So, similarly with a, with aschool rollout of an
implementation, be like.
What are the great points here?
Yeah start with those, startfrom a position of strength and
then ask questions about whereyou feel things could be
(15:42):
different.
Yeah, could it be that?
We is it that.
Should it be?
Could it be?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
very open-ended questions sometimes stimulate
those responses from your teamand that's coaching as well,
because school staff if anyprofessionals are going to feel
a whole lot better after theconversation if they've
identified their own errors andhow they can improve through
some prompting, rather thanfeeling they've come in like a
(16:09):
naughty school child into thehead teacher's office or sit
down at the couch to be toldthis was wrong and this was
wrong.
Nobody wants that.
Apply the mantra of askingquestions twice as many times as
providing answers, andsometimes you do need to be a
bit more direct.
You've got I'm very fortunateI've got a wonderful group staff
around me.
They really are fantastic and Ican remember sometimes staff
(16:29):
come in and say, before you evenstart, I know I've done this
wrong and this wrong and I'vegot a plan how to solve it and
that that's beautiful to seethat is actually what you're
hoping for, right that theyalready they've got the
self-awareness to say this iswhat isn't working.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
But I would love your input on this yeah because this
is where your expertise, whereyou're at the strategic level, I
need you to come and this is so.
Then you're like, okay, I'mready, tell, need you to come in
.
So then you're like, okay, I'mready, tell me what you need me
for.
And then you feel effective andthe relationship grows from it.
Because they're an expert intheir domain, they need your
strategic input and then it canonly snowball better.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Of course, and there's trust there.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Trust, yeah, there's been trust, there's been an
ingredient there Amazing, and Iwould love to know if you've
come across and I know I've beenin the situation myself when I
was a middle leader.
Sometimes we feel like we'rewe're just thinking, sinking in
data, thinking in people wantingall different things from you.
(17:30):
Sometimes the emotional laborof having to deal with difficult
issues on a human level withsome of the students and
families can get to you.
Yeah, and then you've got yourpersonal life going on around
all the school stuff.
What would be your message ofsupport or what would be your
message of perseverance for anyschool leader, middle leader
(17:53):
aspiring, who maybe is thinkingthis isn't for me anymore?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
That's a really good question, given what we're
hearing about exoduses fromcertain countries in the
teaching profession.
It is hard.
Everybody involved in educationis emotionally invested
teachers, parents, students andthat just ratchets up the stress
levels a little bit more.
But I would always go back tojust that, the basics, that it
(18:24):
is a job.
Yes, I understand it's a careerand a vocation, but it is a job
and your family is what is mostimportant.
And I've had some really toughdays in the office over the past
few years for a variety ofreasons and I actually find it's
very helpful on those days tonot try and continue to work
into the evening but to say 4 30pm is my cut off and now I'm
(18:48):
going home and the family and Iwe're going for a walk, we're
going for a meal, we're going tohave a board game.
And just remember why you'redoing it, because I'm doing it
for my love of fashion and I'mdoing it for the students in my
care.
But I'm also doing it to thethree most important people in
my life my wife and my twochildren and if you can get time
(19:09):
with them when times are tough,it's a phenomenal release.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah it's a recharge unlike any other, yeah, yeah um,
and in those moments I'm askingyou this because you're someone
who, clearly, as much as money,is a stepping stone to all the
things that we need in life.
You've made choices, from whatyou've explained, where money is
not the main focus.
How might you, what would beyour message for principals or
(19:37):
school leaders who feel like,yeah, I'm earning, but I'm just,
I'm not happy anymore?
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I think, step back and you know we're talking about
leading forward.
Yeah, we might contextualizethat as leading your school,
leading your staff, leading yourstudent body're talking about
leading forward.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
We might contextualize that as leading
your school, leading your staff,leading your student body.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
But what about?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
leading you.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Leading yourself.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
What about that stepping back to assess what's
important in your life?
In general, people don't leaveprofessions due to the money.
They don't leave professionsbecause they feel that the
entire industry is wrong.
They most often leave becauseof managers or their particular
(20:23):
employers, and so I would alwayssay just take time to think
about what it is that's causingthat pressure?
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Is it the?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
profession, or is it actually that maybe a change of
sea, a new country, a newemployer, that might be the best
thing?
And I would say that isprobably just so crucial to not
make that knee-jerk reactionthat it is education that's the
problem, because there are alsophenomenal days in the office as
well.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Absolutely.
I would also say that when youare a principal, sometimes we
are tunnel vision on the ladder,that you start with a teacher,
then a deputy head, and then ahead, then a principal, and you
think, okay, I'm gonna become anexecutive head.
And then then where?
Yeah, I know from my ownexperience that there are so
many careers that have the sameimpact on children.
It might be not just one school, might be multiple schools.
(21:15):
So there are many avenues thatcan be explored that are beyond
leading one school.
There are advisory roles,coaching roles.
There's all sorts that can bedone if that's your passion.
Well, you're a very good example, yeah um, it's, it's lovely to
speak to you.
Rapid, rapid fire.
Yeah, three words that describeyour leadership legacy that you
(21:39):
hope to leave.
Okay, it can be adjectives orphrases.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Culture.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Kindness and candor.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Candor Culture, kindness and candor, they're all
Cs.
I'm alliterative and I didn'tknow it, but three seeds.
Now, kindness is with a k, itwas a literative.
Yeah, sorry, I nearly.
Yeah, alliteratively wonderfulthere, uh, two c's and a k um.
Thank you so much for your time.
(22:12):
I've really enjoyed speaking toyou and hearing your can your
candid reflections on movingfrom the corporate world to
education, moving from being abit more of a kind of a leader
who looks after everyone tobeing a bit more delegative and
looking after on a wider scaleand giving people empowerment.
Thank you so much for your timedelighted to be here.
(22:32):
Thank you thanks a lot.
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hi Dan, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm very well, zuby, delighted to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Excellent.
We're at the Middle East SchoolLeadership Conference and the
theme is Building legacy Yep andleading forward fantastic.
Please tell me what brought youto school leadership.
From my understanding, you're aschool leader in a lane yeah
what brought you to leadershipand then what brought you to
(00:39):
this part of the world well,okay, I wasn't always a school
leader.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I initially went into the corporate world and ended
up having my own business.
But my wife and I talked anawful lot about teaching and how
she felt I'd be a great schoolteacher and school reader.
And my mom was a teacher aswell.
She's always a role model to me.
So I made the leap sort of 12years ago and have looked back
since, I suppose getting a bitof a head start, a bit of a leg
(01:10):
up.
Quite early on in my teachingcareer, the school leadership
team at the school I was at saidyou should move into leadership
, and they gave me thatopportunity, and I think that's
one thing that I've learned isis to grasp those opportunities
when they come your way.
How we've ended up here?
Well, this is our 11th year inthe middle east.
We've been in jordan, we'vebeen in bahrain and now in the
uae, and we love it.
We love the hospitality, welove the variety of things, the
(01:33):
music and the nature, of course,up in ala, and that's fantastic
.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
So, yeah, we're very fortunate, the garden city yeah,
yeah, brilliant, I'm justcandid question.
Yeah, did you feel like youtook a financial hit from
switching from corporate toeducation?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yes, yeah, I did take a hit, but I suppose two things
.
I've been able to set ourselvesup quite well in the UK from
working very long hours andhaving my own business.
But you do realise that Isuppose it was that moment for
me.
I was early 30s.
My wife has just told me thatwe're expecting our first child
and you think money isn'teverything and staying up all
(02:12):
hours isn't everything and wewanted a better balance of life
and school leadership is hard,but I do get some of those
holidays in order to go andspend time with my own family
that maybe I wouldn't have hadso much of if I was still trying
to build my own business.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I think the survival, the nature of the job and I
mentioned this earlier but thewashing machine of leadership,
yeah, we need those pausesbetween the cycles, otherwise
it's actually not possible tosustain school leadership
without taking those pauses.
And legacy and building otherleaders, leaders supporting
others is that whole empty cuptheory.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
We wouldn't be able to do it without those pauses
yeah, you have to, and, foranyone who is a school leader
and watching this, just do takeview those holidays as a sort of
sacrosanct and you have to gettime with your family, with your
friends.
You have to turn the emails offbecause you'll find that longer
term you're working at 80capacity all of the time but, if
(03:11):
you can work at 100 capacity 85percent of the time, it's a
better outcome for everybody.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
It's that Pareto principle.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I think so yeah excellent.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
so our first question we went through the cards
together and selected some ofthe conversation starter
questions, which was a neatfeature of this conference and
the question we selected was howdo you balance?
So we were talking about Paretoand being efficient as a leader
, but how do you balanceshort-term pressures with
long-term legacy building?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And the reason I chose it is it's such a deep
question to think about.
I was just saying earlier inyour talk I did that we speak
about us being school leadersand leadership is a core aspect
of what we do, but the bread andbutter of what we do is
management, and we manage messesand often we feel like we're
firefighting and we're runningaround on a daily basis trying
(04:01):
to deal with the latest thingthat comes our way, trying to
deal with the latest thing thatcomes our way.
It's really important for me tobook time away from that and, um
, to get out and and be free ofthe firefighting in order to
think what is the direction thatI'm looking for the school to
go, where do I feel we are onthat journey and what are we
(04:23):
going to do to push ourselvestowards it?
And an event like this is sogood for that, because you get
to hear such exciting ideas fromother people and leaders in the
space from all over the worldand you get to speak to vendors
as well, and you think, okay,there may be things that we can
do, but I think, in terms oflegacy specifically, a lot of
that requires me to step backand think about those leaders
(04:46):
that I am developing and am Igiving them the right
opportunities as well?
So, just recently, there's acouple of members of staff who I
think are now ready to step up,to start doing a lot more
interviewing and a lot moredecision making over the teams
that we build within the school,and so casting that type of
responsibility, with trainingand support, over to them allows
me to step back, but I know I'mhelping to build that legacy
(05:10):
because after I've gone they cando that in the same way that I
would do, and that's soimportant.
Continuity sure you'rerecruiting in the same way and
hiring the right sort of peoplefor your school yeah, I think
it's.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
if we have the analogy of a pizza production
line and you're putting all thetoppings and if you're doing
every stage of that, yeah, ifyou're needing the dough and
you're putting the toppings andyou're doing the baking.
We've seen, I've seen enoughreality tv shows to know that
the teams that don't do it wellare the ones who are trying.
(05:43):
Where everyone is trying to doall of it, oh yeah.
And where there's a cleardirection, where the leader is
there supporting everybody butcoordinating the efforts and the
passion and the vision andenabling everyone to do a really
strong management of the task,yeah, those are the teams that
(06:04):
thrive.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
For sure.
And to continue that analogy,you've got pizza toppers waiting
, a really strong management ofthe task.
Those are the teams that thriveFor sure.
And then, to continue thatanalogy, you've got pizza
toppers waiting.
And I think one of the thingsthat I learned, probably in my
first year, few years ofleadership within schools I was
used to it was my own business,but it was a much smaller team
and I was much more hands-on andwhat I realized is that you
have to let go and you have todelegate, and you get to a point
(06:29):
, I think early on in yourleadership career, where you're
a bit uncomfortable aboutpassing things on and you think
that you're overloading them.
You do give them that work,work.
And the way you overcome thatpotential reservation is to talk
with them and say look, I wantto give this to you.
Do you feel ready for it?
Do you feel you have the timefor it?
Delegation done well is stillabout two-way communication and
(06:53):
making sure that you're inregular contact with that person
who's assumed thatresponsibility.
And certainly within our school, I'd like to think that we're
developing some phenomenalteachers who I hope will be far
better school leaders than I am,because they're starting early
and we think we're giving themthe right support.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I think the definition of being effective as
a leader.
Sometimes what happens is thatpeople get fixated on being
perfect rather than effective,and making controlled explosion
mistakes is one way leaders canensure that their teams are
(07:27):
developing, but it's controlledlike.
You can make some mistakes withthis.
So those are the ones that wecan delegate out, but there are
some clearly somenon-negotiables that need to be
up certain standard at all times.
But a curriculum initiative orsome form of pastoral project,
there are some spaces for peopleto be creative and take
(07:50):
ownership.
So that's lovely and it's goodto hear that you found your
delegative spirit.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yes, I'm glad to apologize to any staff who work
with me.
Sorry about that.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Sorry for the micromanaging.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Likewise sorry for here you go.
I've got a great initiative,but I think you'd be great at
leading yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Lovely.
So moving on, and it leadsquite nicely with what we're
talking about what approacheshave proven most effective in
leading systematic change?
And I feel like this is almostan oxymoron systematic and
change.
Yes, change is messy yeah, itis change is messy, but
systematic change is possible itis and you've got three levels.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Really in a school you have the events.
Underlying those events are thebehavior and the behavior
patterns, but it's actually yoursystems that are the deeper
structures within the school andthey lead to the behavior that
leads to the events.
So systematic change is hard.
It's really hard and yeah, andnot just for you as the school
leader, because if you're goingto get systematic change,
(08:56):
everybody needs to be involvedin and that can be one of the
hardest things.
And I think if I was going togive advice about how you start
that big systematic change andhave confidence it's going to be
successful, it's about makingsure that everybody is on that
bus and so making sure that youfind your evangelists and you
(09:17):
find your people ready to runthe pilot and go and tell staff
that is working.
And I would also advise justmake sure that if you're going
to find your evangelist, try andchoose some of your bellwether
staff, the ones who will say ithow it is, the ones who might
grumble about certain things andthe ones whose initial reaction
is change, I don't like it.
(09:38):
And if you can bring some ofthose staff on board and get
them championing, then theothers around it will say, look,
this member of staff is sayingit's going to work.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
It can be a bit of a hard sell though.
Oh, of course.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
But candor, a bit of time with them, will work.
And I remember a particularmiddle leader where I sat down
and was very candid and I said Iwant this to work because I
know that the evidence and theresearch base says it is one of
the most effective ways of CPD.
I know that a lot of staff aregoing to come to you in the
(10:09):
coming weeks.
They're going to come to you inthe corridors and they're going
to say what do you think of this?
I want to show you that it'sworking and it's effective and
it can be really powerful for us.
So let's do that first beforethere's any danger that you
immediately naysay it.
And to be fair to this leader,he got on board with it and he
(10:30):
moved from grudgingly saying Ican see some value in it to
actually being one of the mosteffective instructional coaches
that we had in school, of themost effective instructional
coaches that we had in school.
And so I would say, just to putit in a nutshell make it
collaborative, get yourevangelical staff on board, but
look for those bellwethers, andif you can persuade one or two
(10:51):
bellwethers, the rest will comealong with it sometimes it's the
front loading of the hard workso that the easy work becomes
systematic, knowing that you'regoing to have key voices that
can dilute the effectivenessthrough the way that they
interpret or criticize.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Sometimes those criticisms are valid, but
because they're given the newstoo late about the initiative,
it then comes across critical,whereas if those voices are
given pre-views of what's tocome, sometimes their insights
actually benefit because they'llsay I don't like this about it,
(11:34):
but this might also be aproblem.
So if we're incorporating themat the ideation stage,
pre-implementation, they thenenable an implementation that's
going to have a higher chance ofsuccess compared to the other
way around, but it's more work.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Of course it is, and that front loading is crucial
the design, the thought thatgoes behind it.
When we introduce big changes,they're evidence based.
That means that we're going todo research.
We're going to not just look atthe research based body of
knowledge, but we're going tosurvey different stakeholders
the students, different groupsof teachers, parents and make
(12:11):
sure that we're getting an ideaof what we think will work in
our context, but I think also inchange, especially, but in all
things.
If you're a school leader,stifle your ego because you are
surrounded by experts.
And when you spend six monthsdesigning some sort of change
program and the first time youintroduce it to the middle
(12:34):
leaders or the group of staffthat might be leading on it and
they point out flaws in it, veryeasy then to say you are being
negative about it.
Yeah, that's not necessarilythe case.
It's that they want it tosucceed and they're pointing out
very good things.
So what I found is helpful is,whenever I do have those
conversations and they're givingme constructive feedback, never
(12:57):
respond to it immediately.
I go home, I mull over itbecause I'm brushing my teeth at
night, come back fresh in themorning with a more objective
view rather than having risen toor felt it's an affront to you
and your plans.
So just being patient as wellwith the feedback that you're
getting.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I think it's another thing that we, when we design
something, anything, we havethis creator, creative spirit
that we've created thismasterpiece yes and when we
create that, we put the time andhours into it.
We feel that those hours willsomehow be squandered because
when we receive the criticism,it means that those hours were
(13:37):
not well spent or that someone'squestioning your mastery of
educational leadership when inactual fact, they're
pragmatizing what is a plan,they're playing it out in their
mind, at their level, andproviding you with key red flags
before they come about.
So it's really important thatleaders, when we get that flare,
(14:00):
that emotional flare ofresponse, to just pause in the
uncomfortable space of feelingsomething, yeah, to just stay
there composed and allow.
Yeah, you do feel like, oh,I've spent so long on it, they
weren't, they didn't love it.
You feel some sort of irk yeahon it, but then later.
(14:21):
That's not why you're creatingit in the first place.
You're not creating it, so yourteam say I love it.
Yeah, you're creating it, sothat's effective in the school,
yeah, so it's lovely that you'veprovided that story how often
do we tell students failure isyour greatest teacher?
Speaker 1 (14:34):
mistakes matter, and as school leaders, we need to
apply those same principles too.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
It's not always going to and it's never going to go
right immediately absolutelyyour point that you mentioned
earlier about potentially havingan a slightly smaller team and
then having to open out that.
That the way that you lead anddelegate.
An example comes to mind ofwhere we talked about mistakes
just now where, if you're abasketball coach, are you
(15:00):
expecting your new recruit who'sgot the potential to be your
star player?
Are we expecting them to dunkthe basketball every single shot
?
Yeah, when you first startcoaching them or mentoring or
leading them?
No, and is it that the firsttime they miss that you tell
them you missed?
yeah no, you're going to say howclose they are from getting it
(15:21):
in.
You're you're that close togetting it in?
This was great, your arms weregreat, your technique, but how
about this?
So, similarly with a, with aschool rollout of an
implementation, be like.
What are the great points here?
Yeah start with those, startfrom a position of strength and
then ask questions about whereyou feel things could be
(15:42):
different.
Yeah, could it be that?
We is it that.
Should it be?
Could it be?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
very open-ended questions sometimes stimulate
those responses from your teamand that's coaching as well,
because school staff if anyprofessionals are going to feel
a whole lot better after theconversation if they've
identified their own errors andhow they can improve through
some prompting, rather thanfeeling they've come in like a
(16:09):
naughty school child into thehead teacher's office or sit
down at the couch to be toldthis was wrong and this was
wrong.
Nobody wants that.
Apply the mantra of askingquestions twice as many times as
providing answers, andsometimes you do need to be a
bit more direct.
You've got I'm very fortunateI've got a wonderful group staff
around me.
They really are fantastic and Ican remember sometimes staff
(16:29):
come in and say, before you evenstart, I know I've done this
wrong and this wrong and I'vegot a plan how to solve it and
that that's beautiful to seethat is actually what you're
hoping for, right that theyalready they've got the
self-awareness to say this iswhat isn't working.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
But I would love your input on this yeah because this
is where your expertise, whereyou're at the strategic level, I
need you to come and this is so.
Then you're like, okay, I'mready, tell, need you to come in
.
So then you're like, okay, I'mready, tell me what you need me
for.
And then you feel effective andthe relationship grows from it.
Because they're an expert intheir domain, they need your
strategic input and then it canonly snowball better.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Of course, and there's trust there.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Trust, yeah, there's been trust, there's been an
ingredient there Amazing, and Iwould love to know if you've
come across and I know I've beenin the situation myself when I
was a middle leader.
Sometimes we feel like we'rewe're just thinking, sinking in
data, thinking in people wantingall different things from you.
(17:30):
Sometimes the emotional laborof having to deal with difficult
issues on a human level withsome of the students and
families can get to you.
Yeah, and then you've got yourpersonal life going on around
all the school stuff.
What would be your message ofsupport or what would be your
message of perseverance for anyschool leader, middle leader
(17:53):
aspiring, who maybe is thinkingthis isn't for me anymore?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
That's a really good question, given what we're
hearing about exoduses fromcertain countries in the
teaching profession.
It is hard.
Everybody involved in educationis emotionally invested
teachers, parents, students andthat just ratchets up the stress
levels a little bit more.
But I would always go back tojust that, the basics, that it
(18:24):
is a job.
Yes, I understand it's a careerand a vocation, but it is a job
and your family is what is mostimportant.
And I've had some really toughdays in the office over the past
few years for a variety ofreasons and I actually find it's
very helpful on those days tonot try and continue to work
into the evening but to say 4 30pm is my cut off and now I'm
(18:48):
going home and the family and Iwe're going for a walk, we're
going for a meal, we're going tohave a board game.
And just remember why you'redoing it, because I'm doing it
for my love of fashion and I'mdoing it for the students in my
care.
But I'm also doing it to thethree most important people in
my life my wife and my twochildren and if you can get time
(19:09):
with them when times are tough,it's a phenomenal release.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah it's a recharge unlike any other, yeah, yeah um,
and in those moments I'm askingyou this because you're someone
who, clearly, as much as money,is a stepping stone to all the
things that we need in life.
You've made choices, from whatyou've explained, where money is
not the main focus.
How might you, what would beyour message for principals or
(19:37):
school leaders who feel like,yeah, I'm earning, but I'm just,
I'm not happy anymore?
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I think, step back and you know we're talking about
leading forward.
Yeah, we might contextualizethat as leading your school,
leading your staff, leading yourstudent body're talking about
leading forward.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
We might contextualize that as leading
your school, leading your staff,leading your student body.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
But what about?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
leading you.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Leading yourself.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
What about that stepping back to assess what's
important in your life?
In general, people don't leaveprofessions due to the money.
They don't leave professionsbecause they feel that the
entire industry is wrong.
They most often leave becauseof managers or their particular
(20:23):
employers, and so I would alwayssay just take time to think
about what it is that's causingthat pressure?
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Is it the?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
profession, or is it actually that maybe a change of
sea, a new country, a newemployer, that might be the best
thing?
And I would say that isprobably just so crucial to not
make that knee-jerk reactionthat it is education that's the
problem, because there are alsophenomenal days in the office as
well.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Absolutely.
I would also say that when youare a principal, sometimes we
are tunnel vision on the ladder,that you start with a teacher,
then a deputy head, and then ahead, then a principal, and you
think, okay, I'm gonna become anexecutive head.
And then then where?
Yeah, I know from my ownexperience that there are so
many careers that have the sameimpact on children.
It might be not just one school, might be multiple schools.
(21:15):
So there are many avenues thatcan be explored that are beyond
leading one school.
There are advisory roles,coaching roles.
There's all sorts that can bedone if that's your passion.
Well, you're a very good example, yeah um, it's, it's lovely to
speak to you.
Rapid, rapid fire.
Yeah, three words that describeyour leadership legacy that you
(21:39):
hope to leave.
Okay, it can be adjectives orphrases.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Culture.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Kindness and candor.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Candor Culture, kindness and candor, they're all
Cs.
I'm alliterative and I didn'tknow it, but three seeds.
Now, kindness is with a k, itwas a literative.
Yeah, sorry, I nearly.
Yeah, alliteratively wonderfulthere, uh, two c's and a k um.
Thank you so much for your time.
(22:12):
I've really enjoyed speaking toyou and hearing your can your
candid reflections on movingfrom the corporate world to
education, moving from being abit more of a kind of a leader
who looks after everyone tobeing a bit more delegative and
looking after on a wider scaleand giving people empowerment.
Thank you so much for your timedelighted to be here.
(22:32):
Thank you thanks a lot.
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