February 20, 2025 • 42 mins
This episode centres on the critical importance of professional development and leadership in education. It discusses the need for schools to prioritise teacher expertise as a means to improve student outcomes and addresses the ongoing debate regarding class sizes and effective teaching.
Guest hosted by Zoubiya Ahmed
Connect with Zoubiya at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoubiya/
• Overview of conference themes and keynote insights
• Emphasis on the necessity for enhancing teacher expertise
• Discussion of the inadequate time allotted for professional development
• Argument for finding time for collaborative and individual professional learning
• Larger class sizes with skilled teachers vs. smaller classes with average teachers
• Enabling effective leadership to foster a culture of continuous improvement
• Addressing scepticism towards research in educational practice
• Importance of aligning professional development with classroom realities
• Encouragement to create open dialogues about teaching practices
• Vision for schools as centres of holistic learning and growth
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, rob Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Zubir.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
A pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Likewise.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I've had the opportunity to have mini chats
with you.
Yes, got a chance to experienceyour keynote, really get to
grips with the currentdevelopments in the Great
Teaching Toolkit.
I'd like you to first give ourleaders and we're at the Middle
East School LeadershipConference by the way give the
leaders who are listening andthe educators listening a sense
(00:25):
of your keynote today okay, justa short elevator pitch.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yes, yeah, uh, okay.
Well, it's about leadership,which obviously people are
interested in, and the idea that, uh, the most important thing
leaders do is to build theexpertise of their staff,
because it's classrooms wherelearning happens.
Schools are about learning.
Let's keep the focus on themain thing and the thing that
determines how much learning isreally the expertise of teachers
(00:52):
in classrooms and what they do,and so school leaders have to
maximize that and optimize that,and the strongest lever that
they have is to focus onprofessional development and how
they frame that, how they offerit, how much time they give to
it, what they do with that timeto make it effective, because it
is that's the thing thatinfluences teacher expertise and
(01:15):
it's it's the gift that keepson giving.
I didn't say this in the talk,but you know, if I learn to be a
better teacher gradually overtime, every class I teach
benefits from that for the restof my career.
It's not like an interventionwhere you you get it while
you're doing it and then it itfades out which most do so.
The the argument, the rationalargument for saying this should
(01:37):
be our top priority, I think isoverwhelming.
That's at odds with a lot ofcurrent practice.
Where I mean in in england,surveys say that an average
teacher spends half an hour aweek on professional learning
out of a 50 hour working weekfor an average teacher.
So that's one percent.
That does not scream highestpriority to me.
(02:00):
That screams this.
We fit this in around the edgesand it should be the other way.
I'm not saying they shouldspend 49 and a half hours of
professional learning, but itshould be more than that how
much more.
Well, uh, I, we, we talk whenwe're talking with schools about
, for example, using the greatteaching toolkit, that if you
(02:20):
can't find an hour a week forevery member of staff, you're
unlikely to get the full benefit.
Now, schools will often raisean eyebrow when you say that,
because it feels like a lot Anhour a week to dedicate and we
talk about.
You know, a good model would beto find an hour a week for
(02:41):
meeting time where people gettogether and collaborate and
support each other.
And then on the other week, thehour is for individual study,
for collecting information andinsights about their own
classroom, perhaps using studentsurveys or video or other
techniques, looking at otherpeople, giving other colleagues
feedback.
So there's the kind of out ofmeeting, study and interaction.
(03:03):
And then there's the focus ofout of meeting, study and
interaction, and then there'sthe focus time in a meeting
where people are togetherhelping each other.
And if you can find an hour aweek, that's great, but I don't
think that's like a, an ultimatetarget.
I think that's a, that's kind ofminimum requirement if you can
find two hours a week, you know.
So one of the questions I wouldhave is would you rather, how
(03:26):
do you find the time and themoney to do this.
Well, one of the ways you cando it is by teaching bigger
classes, because the economicsof this is quite simple if you
teach more children in the room,then, uh, the unit costs of
delivering that go downabsolutely and um, therefore,
you've got money and time toplay with.
No teacher wants to teach abigger class, but as a parent,
(03:52):
one of the questions I would askis would you rather have a
really excellent teacher withyour class in a class of 30, or
an okay teacher with your, yourchild in a class of 25, or just
a kind of mediocre teacher withyour child in the class of 25,
or just a kind of mediocreteacher with your child in the
class of 20?
And I would always have theexpert teacher with the class of
(04:13):
30 it's interesting you took meback to GCSE.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
In my own learner experience, every teacher in the
science team used to havemonday lunchtime okay so monday
lunch dedicated in year 10towards revising what was
learned, and we had this oneteacher that everybody knew that
he did these kind of powersessions okay yeah, through
(04:39):
topics right image okay, Ireally went into detail worth
attending those his.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
There were other teachers who got a turnout of 10
yeah, of dean of year 10 andour year 10 was about 400, 600
children was a big school and umthis particular teacher who
happened to be my form tutor.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So at the end of lunchtime we'd go on a monday
and see the room was so fullokay, to the door right because
everyone wanted a piece of that,that 40 minutes so that it's
interesting that you say thatyeah and it took me yes to that.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
So it I think there is some well a great teacher can
manage a big group, and youknow it's harder, it's more work
.
You know it's harder, it's morework.
For sure it's more difficult inmany ways.
It's difficult when you're in afee-paying school to persuade
people that that's what they'repaying for.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Or justify.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Justify yes, yeah, but if we lived in a rational
world which you know, I know wedon't people would be saying yes
, I rather have, uh, my child ina big class with a really great
teacher than in a small class.
So if we could find a way tosell that to teachers which
again, I know is a challenge um,you could teach if, if the
(05:58):
choice for a teacher could bethat you teach a full timetable
over five days, let's say, ifyou have a five-day working week
with classes of 25, or youteach bigger classes of 30, but
you only teach four days and youhave a whole day for
professional development and thecosts are quite similar for
(06:20):
those sorts of numbers.
I mean, you know, you reducethe teaching by a fifth, you
increase the numbers by a fifth,it sort of works out roughly
speaking.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Do you know of any schools who've piloted this Well
?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I know some schools who have freed up time for
professional learning.
They're not always verytransparent about how they've
done that, or the measurableimpact at that time.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I know, but it's difficult.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
And I think that's the challenge, that's the
barrier, I think, because, as Isay, in a rational world, if you
believed that the time youspend on professional learning
would pay back in a way, in theway that the research says it
can do, then it'd be ano-brainer.
You just say, yeah, we, we wantto free up this time.
We'd have give people a wholeday a week to spend on their
(07:05):
professional development andwe'd find a way to do that
because it's the most importantthing.
You know, schools are reallyvalue-driven places.
They're all about purpose.
The purpose is to to helpyoungsters, to help them learn
stuff, to help them grow to beadults and take part in society
and all of that stuff, and to dothat we need great teachers.
So everything that we can dothat makes teaching great, we
(07:27):
should do that thing.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
It's really that simple I think, though, I can
hear the whispers from thosepotentially watching this
thinking if our board yes we'remade aware that we have the
capacity to teach bigger groupswith the same impact.
All that will happen is ourtimetable will grow.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Just be given grow.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
You'll be given more and that professional
development time would still beutilized for lessons?
Yeah to increase the capacityof the school and it would be
seen as a, as a.
Do you see it?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
yes, it'd be worse than where you were before
exactly yes so I obviously Iwouldn't advocate that.
I think it will depend on thecontext.
In some contexts school leadershave that power to decide.
Certainly many schools inEngland that would be the case.
Schools here I think some do is, my sense, more about kind of
(08:26):
delivering well, making moneyperhaps in some cases, or
certainly delivering accordingto a set of expectations.
And those expectations are veryvaried.
They come from the parents andthe community, they come from
inspection processes and otherkinds of accountability, and you
can't not do those things youhave to.
If you don't satisfy yourmarket and you don't satisfy the
regulators and you don'tdeliver on those key outcomes,
(08:49):
no one's going to think you'resucceeding.
And that's quite right.
Unless those regulatory systemsare really misaligned, then
it's not wrong that you shouldhave to tick those boxes, but it
is wrong if you think that'sall we have to do.
True, they shouldn't be a check.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Know they shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
They should be a check they shouldn't be the
be-all and end-all and that'snot a school.
If, if all a school does issatisfy inspectors and
regulators and parents, it's nota school I want my children to
go to.
It's not a school I want towork in, because it's just a
really impoverished view of whateducation is about isn't it yes
(09:28):
and no?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I agree and disagree in part, and I'm gonna explain
why.
Because and I haven't reallysaid this on camera before I
have a daughter with additionalneeds.
Okay, um, she wouldn't be ableto cope in a classroom?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yes, in a big class.
And I was interjecting whileyou were still making your point
.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Premium schools.
One of the things about theatmosphere that they're trying
to project to parents is thisidea that their child will have
a personalised learning journeyand that attention is quite
targeted to the child, and itbegs for the question if the
class was bigger yeah and theschool was bigger yes would
(10:12):
every child feel seen, hurt andvalued enough?
Yes, learning to therefore beaffected on them?
Yes, so that's, that's, so,that's really, really important.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, there are some children, you know.
Additional needs covers a widerange of things, some of which
do need very intensive, veryindividualized personal experts.
Let's put that out there.
This is not just about havinganother body to be with them.
It's about someone who reallyreally understands the
(10:42):
challenges, what they need, howto help.
So there are some childrenwhere that is a requirement and
if we are a civilized society,we should we should fund that.
Yeah, but that's an extra.
That's not the kind of regularcost of, uh, everyday
instruction.
That's an extra requirementthat makes the world fair.
You know, it's like puttingramps in so wheelchairs can get
(11:03):
out.
Yeah, making things accessibleto everyone, and you know it's
like putting ramps in sowheelchairs can get out.
Yeah, making things accessibleto everyone and you know that's
a principle and I wouldn'twouldn't waver on that that we
meet where people have differentneeds.
We have to meet those needs.
But I don't think it followsfrom that that in order to feel
you belong, to feel seen to, tobe respected, to have an
(11:24):
identity, belong to anorganization, it doesn't follow
that you have to always be insmall groups.
In fact, I would say it'spretty much irrelevant the size
of the group.
It's about the relationshipsthat you have, it's about the
culture, it's about the values,and you can achieve that with
big groups or you can achieve itwith small groups, you know,
(11:45):
provided those specialist needsare met.
I don't think it follows that.
Now, I know, um, you know,parents in general will have a
preference to say well, it's anice small group, it's nurturing
, it's friendly, it's good orthey will want that.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
It's the the amount of time that yeah it's this
division concept that if ateacher has this many minutes
and it's divided the mathematicspeople feel bad.
That being said, I'm notdisagreeing.
I'm just saying that that's thepopular belief that we would
face the challenge we'd face asleaders.
To try and justify that, theimpact of this teacher?
(12:23):
Yes, irrespective of minutes.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Okay is different yes to this yes, model, I know, and
there's a whole debate to havethere and one of the things that
drew me into talking aboutpedagogy in the first place
because I was a researcher.
My research was aboutassessment mostly, and I um, I
was in and and evidence andevaluation.
That's what I was interested inNothing to do with classroom
(12:47):
practice.
And then I was involved in athing that became the EF, the
Education Endowment Foundation'sTeaching Learning Toolkit.
This was originally a thing forthe Sutton Trust.
This was in 2010.
We started writing this and itwas a summary of what the best
evidence available says aboutdifferent interventions.
Still on.
(13:08):
The EF is still promoting.
It's still widely used schoolleaders and everybody else.
People in England know about itabsolutely, and you're nodding,
right, so this was a new thingthere, and the reason we did it
was because um, it was we werecoming up to an election in
England, 2010, and all three ofthe main parties were saying we
would have some kind of pupilpremium.
(13:30):
That was a new thing then.
It didn't exist before, and wethought that meant extra money
for schools, although, lookingback, that isn't quite how it
played out.
And so school leaders, suttonTrust, did a survey and they
said to school leaders how wouldyou spend this extra money?
And they said we would hiremore teachers and have smaller
classes and we'd hire moreteaching assistants and those
(13:53):
are both really expensive thingsfor a school to do.
And they were the kind of topfavourites.
That things was that they wouldhave a small effect which was
not as big as many other thingsthat they could have spent that
money on.
So not that there's no effectof having a smaller class, it's
(14:15):
just one of the most expensivethings you can do and it's a
modest effect.
So if you're following theevidence, you probably wouldn't
do that.
At least that wouldn't be yourfirst go-to.
And we thought well, why arepeople saying this thing that's
so against the evidence?
Well, because they don't knowwhat the evidence says so, let's
produce an accessible summary.
And that's the piece of workthat was led by Steve Higgins,
(14:38):
who was my colleague at Durham,and I was part of that original
thing and then it got taken overand I wasn't involved after
that so much, but I wasdefinitely part of the the
creation of it and that's why wedid it.
And then we put this thing outand it said class sizes don't
matter as much as you thinkthey'll matter, and that was a
shocking message I it was a.
(14:59):
It was well received.
I think the whole the toolkitand I was often asked to speak
about it to audiences ofteachers and I would say this
thing I, you know, like to becontroversial, upset people when
I'm talking or give themsomething to think about.
Let's put that in a nicer way.
So I would say you know, classsizes don't make as much
(15:21):
difference, and teachers wouldbe absolutely sure that I was
wrong and they'd want to argue.
You know, that's that's theprevailing.
Yeah, that's changed in Englandnow people don't want to argue
about it anymore.
Other places they maybe do, andfor me that was incredibly rich
discussion because it basicallygot down.
(15:43):
I would well.
Why do you think you can be moreeffective in a small class?
Why do you think more learninghappens in a small class than a
big class?
And they would say things likewe can give more individual
attention.
And I would say something likeokay, so imagine you've got a
one hour lesson and a class of30 children.
If you do nothing other thanindividual attention, that's two
(16:05):
minutes per child.
And what is each child doing inthe other 58 minutes?
Is that a great pedagogy?
No, it isn't so.
At most you're you've got twominutes of individual attention
and the reality is you probablymost children don't get any and
and some get a bit, but it's afew seconds out of an hour's
lesson.
So to be an effective teacher,you have to have strategies that
(16:29):
enable you to interactproductively with youngsters in
a way that isn't one-to-one,because one-to-one unless you
get down to about five orcertainly ten one-to-one is just
a really inefficient strategy.
So give me an example, I wouldsay, of a strategy that you
(16:49):
think can work with a class of15.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
That doesn't work with a class of 30.
I think the important words yousaid there was productive yeah
and being um efficient yes, timeas well, both of those are
critical to ensure, and my mindwent to the, the the spheres of
zone of proximal developmentwhen you're speaking, yeah and
sometimes there's a topic withina sequence where 50% of the
(17:17):
children are in the inner circlewhere they already are able to
do the learning efficiently andwithout assistance.
If that's the case, are we thenstill giving them their two
minutes?
Probably not.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
In practice not, we're probably going to focus on
the children and it's very hardto who need the interventions?
Yeah, the children who have.
Yeah no prerequisite yes, yes,knowledge of that topic to bring
them in.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, so do we really give equal time?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
no, we give equitable time to children in the
classroom so I think that theargument falls well, and when
you, when you describe that, thecomplexity of managing all
those, the different childrenwith their different starting
points, their different needs,their different appetites, their
different attitudes they'redifferent uh, all the
interactions between them, itjust sounds like there's no way
(18:08):
anyone could do this.
It's just too hard, yeah.
And yet go into any school,literally any school in the, and
you will see teachers doingthat.
Yes, you know, schools thatpeople have said are not good,
you will find teachers doingthat thing, because every school
has those teachers and some,when you see the best do it,
(18:29):
it's phenomenal.
It just makes you well up andthe hairs on the back of your
neck go up and you just thinkthis is incredible.
Yeah, so how do they do it?
I don't know, they'resuperhuman and they're
extraordinary, but they're doingit every day.
You know, while we're sat herespeaking, there are teachers,
you know, less than a mile fromus, I'm sure, in schools, doing
that very thing.
And so if you are a teacher andyou want to, you're kind of
(18:53):
puzzled by well, how can, howcan that be?
How can I manage thisimpossible challenge?
The answer is don't ask me,because I'm a researcher.
Go and look at another schoolnearby where somebody is doing
it well, and talk to that personand build those networks of
support, because your colleaguesare doing this, even if you're
not, and probably you are too,actually.
So maybe all you need is justto be told you're already doing
(19:16):
it well and just keep going.
But we can learn from otherpeople, and we should, and
that's where the answer is.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Speaking of learning and adult learning, professional
learning in education.
You touched earlier on thepoint of professional
development and we talked abouta guideline of number, of amount
of time.
I mean time is relative andwhat we do with our time.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Exactly, yeah.
And also, how do we defineprofessional learning and the
impact of?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
that.
My question is the Simzatelresource that you I know it well
Okay.
My work with the MPQs.
Yes.
I'm excited in that, yeah, andthe Sutton Trust is also excited
heavily for leaders to knowabout.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah and the.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Sutton Trust is also cited heavily for leaders to
know about.
But I'm pretty sure mosteducators, or anybody who's not
familiar with that work, aren'tnecessarily skilled to evaluate
the quality of professionaldevelopment when they create it.
So I'd love for you to give arun, a quick rundown of, of not
(20:17):
necessarily all 17 dimensions,but the gush right, okay, just
yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
The mechanism, the idea of mechanisms, yeah, 17
mechanisms, yeah okay.
Sense of yeah, pd is only asimpactful as, yes, knowing
what's in it yeah, I mean, it'sa great example of what I would
describe as evidence-basedpractitioner advice, because it
starts with a systematic reviewof what do we know about
professional development, andthere's lots of studies that
(20:46):
have tried to evaluate differentkinds of professional learning,
professional development, cpdand so we should start by well,
what do they tell us?
And the answer is that it'squite a mixed picture, but
broadly there is support for theidea that professional
development can make areasonably substantial
(21:07):
difference to how effectiveteachers are.
Teachers who engage with theright kinds of professional
development become moreeffective, become more effective
quicker than they would havedone if they hadn't.
So the overall case is there,and then what they tried to do
is not just to report thatheadline as a statistical
average but to say well, do weunderstand some of that
(21:29):
variation and do we understand,crucially, why?
So they focused on mechanismsand the idea that, if we think
about what we're trying to do inin professional development is
partly seen as learning, partlyseen as behavior change, and
though you know those two arenot separate, but they um, they
(21:50):
have, they come from differentum traditions in terms of how
people research.
So, for example, in health,there's a lot of research about
behavior change, how you getpeople to adopt more healthy
lifestyles, and those kinds ofthings.
You know, we've all tried to dothat, I'm sure, and we found it
very, very hard to changebehaviors yeah, changing yes and
(22:10):
it's uh.
you know many other examples,you know I I talked to examples
about things like learning aninstrument.
Again, you might have had theexperience where you had one
teacher and they told you tohold your bow this way or
something, and then a newteacher came along and they said
, oh, not like that.
And it just felt excruciatinglyuncomfortable to change
(22:31):
something that you'd had thatwas working.
You thought it was fine, butsomebody else looks at it and
says, no, this is To be back topiano lessons.
Okay exactly yeah.
So your hands position Go thisway, not that way.
The thing about it to hang onto is that the change felt wrong
.
You felt like you were gettingworse.
(22:51):
You felt less comfortable.
You were getting worse, youfelt less comfortable and, uh,
it took a lot of work to makethe new thing the thing you do,
and you, maybe you didn'tsucceed.
I don't know.
But you know, eventually, ifyou persist with that, you
become comfortable with the newway and if the advice is right.
you become better, you know yoursound is improved or your
(23:13):
ability?
Speaker 1 (23:13):
yeah, play, I think, a good analogy, for that might
actually be learning to drive,and then, becoming a driver and
then learning to be aninstructor of those who drive.
The instructor level will havedifferent, pedals will have
different mechanisms anddifferent tools to enable the
driver to be an advanced driver,because oftentimes when people
(23:37):
hear professional developmentthey think, um, am I lesser than
the standard?
okay, deficit model, right, hecomes into people that well,
professional development andthis comes back to the point you
made in your keynote that do weonly focus on an improvement
mindset for those on a yeah andthose on a plp?
(23:58):
Yes, different things, but umthis idea that you're doing okay
because we've got thisinspection rating that we're
trying to maintain, yeah, solet's focus our attention on the
price.
Terrible, terrible way to goabout but if you've only got so
much time, yeah would it not bea slippery slope that you could
slide down quite easily?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
to to fall into that?
Yes, of course crisismanagement.
Okay, well, these are thecrisis if you're in a crisis,
crisis management is right.
If your building's on fire, youneed to put out all the fires.
You can't say, oh, I'mprioritizing this one because
the other one's going to burnyour house down.
So if that's genuinely thecontext and if you are a leader,
and that's the school andthat's your context, well, you
(24:40):
know, I feel for you and that'sa different game.
So, if you're in a crisis,crisis management.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
But we would say that if you are consistently crisis
managing, professionaldevelopment that is a trend that
we need to address yes, andit's not a crisis Exactly, or at
least it's not a sustainableway to live your life.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
So if you're consistently in a crisis because
you're failing to see what theopportunities are and to think
longer term and to prioritisewhat's important versus what's
urgent, then that's a failure ofleadership and that's on you.
Versus what's urgent, thenthat's a failure of leadership
and that's on you.
If you're in a crisis becauseyou don't have any power to do
(25:21):
anything other than just tomanage a crisis, then my advice
would be leave and get anotherjob, because you know it will
kill you and it's not a niceplace to be and it's out of your
control and that's not theschool leader you want to be.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Well, maybe some people do, I don't know but the
survival instinct keeps youthere, but you probably wouldn't
be able to, and in the theme ofthe conference being, uh, being
, building a sustainable legacy.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's not sustainable, it's toxic and you, you need to
look around and say, well, do Iwant this?
I mean, I don't know if that'shelpful advice, but I, I do
think we, we, we sometimes havethese narratives around the sort
of stress and the crisis andthe outside pressures.
And yes, of course they'rethere.
I'm not saying they're not, Ithink they can be.
(26:09):
They're certainly very real,they really really matter.
I mean, that's one of thethings that strikes me about the
context in UAE, particularlythat the stakes attached.
I mean head teachers in Englandtalk about high stakes or in
relation to off-stakes.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I think it's worse here.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yes, yeah, really really matters, and it's more
regular as well.
Inspection process, for example.
There's zero tolerance of evenjust slight falling away from
being the highest do you thinkthat's counterproductive?
Yes, I do, yeah yeah, I thinkwell, I don't know, I think well
let's not be so hard-hitting.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Perhaps it's a impeding, or inhibiting yes kind
of professional developmentthat's truly embedded.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
I think it's a reason why we're not thinking as much
about the longer term, about thereally authentic, sustainable
solutions that really make adifference to the things that
are important, and it's veryhard to have that conversation
with yourself and tostrategically think about what
matters here when you've gotthese drivers all the time kind
(27:14):
of beating on your door sayingyou have to do this, you have to
do this, you have to do this.
Good leaders are able to managethat, I'm absolutely sure, and
you know they're here in this,this building today.
I've spoken with some of themwho make me think that's what
they're doing, but they do it byprotecting people from that
pressure they don't pass thatpressure on and they actually
(27:36):
internalise it.
Yes, maybe and that's hard thatis hard for them, but maybe to
some extent that is part of thejob.
Some people do that really welland I think it's great that
they do.
I think we all need to havepressure.
I'm not saying we should justhave a free-for-all and nobody
ever looks to see whether it'sgood or not.
We should definitely knowwhat's good.
We should have pressure, but itshouldn't be the kind of
(28:01):
unrelenting pressure thatdoesn't give you space.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Or stifle people to actually have a go.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
You're afraid to try anything, you're afraid to say
invest in professional learning,because you think I've just got
to tick these boxes and unlessI do that, my job's under threat
and the school's under threat,and you know all these people's
livelihoods and you go down this, this spiral of anxiety about
that thing, so you haven't gotspace to just think about what's
(28:29):
important.
Can we try something different?
If you try something different,you're taking a risk, and you
need to.
People need to feel empoweredto take a bit of it.
If you're not taking a risk,you're not really doing the job,
are you?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
What would you say would be your advice for a
leader who is research-informed,who understands the dynamics of
scaffolding and monitoring andfeedback and really has a strong
sense of that in their ownpractice.
They're a good practitioner.
They're able to translate thatin their own practice, yeah,
(29:02):
when they go to their team right?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
yeah, and they are with a department.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yes, and then you've got variable levels of
skepticism you've got some whothink, well, well, that works in
the UK schools where they don'thave EADL students.
There's this cynicism ofcontextual relevance of
widespread research.
And they well, the theorists,don't know my challenges.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
It becomes personal to them.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
What would be your advice to a leader who?
Has to bring in the best of theresearch yes, into a context
and make it convincing yeah butalso relevant.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yes, okay, your advice well I I think this is a
real challenge and a bigchallenge and it's very
difficult.
I think the example you gaveearlier of the you know the good
driver who becomes a drivinginstructor.
It's a different set of skills.
Being a great teacher is notthe same as managing a team of
(30:04):
people, so there are differentskills involved and that's
important, I think.
First of all, I think that theknowledge that that person has
being research-informed,understanding pedagogy all of
that helps them.
It does make a differencebecause their job is to manage
that team, but to manage thatteam in a specific activity
which is teaching and learning.
(30:25):
And so being an expert in thatthemselves does give them
strength.
I think it's important theyneed to focus on things that
really really matter.
They need to focus on thingsthat really really matter.
I don't think we get um, I I.
I think it's.
It's rarely the case that oneteacher should tell another
teacher how to do something,because in my experience, when
(30:47):
that's happened to me, ifsomeone else has said, oh, you
should do this, I've always justthought, well, that's your
advice, that's your opinion,that works for you.
I'm, I'm, some, I'm.
Sometimes it's helpful.
Quite often it isn't so, um,but I do think that teachers
should understand.
I talked about the need tounderstand the theory.
So if the research informedteacher knows about the science
(31:11):
of learning and what learning isand how it happens, they'll
know about, um, how things gointo short-term memory.
But they really don't stay forvery long and we can't process
very much Sure working memory.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Working memory yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
But some of that ends up then getting transferred
into long-term memory, which isobviously much bigger and much
longer lasting.
So that's the aim.
How do we do that?
By processing?
And so that's the aim.
How do we do that by processing?
And so that's the.
You know, how do we getstudents to do?
That model is helpful if ithelps us to think about process
(31:44):
and it leads us to do thingslike retrieval, practice spacing
so that we give time to forget,and so on.
And if you didn't know thattheory, some teachers just
instinctively think well, that'swhat you know.
We did this last week.
We need to just check if it'sthere, but most don't.
When I was a teacher, Icertainly didn't.
I would teach a topic.
(32:05):
Students could do it.
I think, great, they've gotthis.
We'd come back literally thenext day and they couldn't do it
and I would just be hitting myhead and frustrated thinking,
how can this be?
You could do this yesterday,why can't you do it today?
I was annoyed with them, if I'mhonest.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
And I now think well, what an idiot Did you see it as
a reflection of your ownaptitude or your abilities?
Up to a point I suppose.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
But no, I thought it was just them being perverse,
which is just ridiculous becauseit happens again and again and
again, and after a while youmight think OK, whoever's fault
this is, you can't just be indenial about it.
You need to address it andthink about why it is and what
you can do.
Maybe to some extent I did, butI don't think I really did
(32:51):
properly.
I just thought I didn'tunderstand why I think and
therefore it just seemed a bitbizarre.
I didn't understand why I thinkand therefore it just seemed a
bit bizarre.
And I think if I'd known a bitmore about memory and how it
works, I might have been betterable to respond to that.
So that bit of theory wouldhave helped me in adapting you
had some aha moments followingthat exactly.
Yeah, a lot of yeah, thinkingabout oh okay, I wasn't that
(33:13):
great, was I?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Looking back very much.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
so yeah, you mentioned the point earlier as
well.
Sorry getting in there, becauseit's exactly on this point that
most leaders, teachers,educators think they are better
than they are All right.
So that's, one idea.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I want you to hold.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
And then I want you to hold the other idea that
often the teachers who are themost self-critical yeah and I
found this in my coaching.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, they are the ones who are hardest on
themselves but at the cost oftheir well-being, yes, and those
who think they're great yes arethe ones who don't have the
anxiety of the improvementmindset yeah how would you
manage?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
okay?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
yeah, well, okay, so these are classic management
challenges, aren't they aboutdealing with human beings and
all the variety?
And you're right, you have somepeople who are more confident
than they should be and somepeople who are less confident
they should be.
Obviously, there are somegender relationships there as
well that tend to be correlatedwith that or different other
kinds of characteristics, andcultural and cultural, yes,
(34:18):
exactly, and we should be awareof those, but not limit people
by those characteristics, buttake each one as they are.
I think the efficacy isimportant, so the belief that
you have agency here, that youhave control, that you can make
a difference.
So it's all about trying tohelp people, not to think about
(34:42):
what matters is how good I amtoday, but what matters is what
direction am I traveling in andwhat am I?
Am I the owner of that journeyor am I just being buffeted a
feather?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
in the wind?
Do you mean like aspirationally?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yes, aspirationally, for sure.
So if you ask teachers howimportant is it to you to be
better at your job, you'll get arange of answers.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
It sounds like a coaching conversation exactly
some people will say it'sabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
It's everything to me .
I want to be the best I can be.
I know that's hard, I know Ihave to work at it.
But and I know that some of youknow, like any other kind of
learning, that can be bruisingwhere I find that I'm not doing
as well as I thought I was.
But I'm up for that.
That's my challenge.
Other Other teachers will saylook, this is a tough job.
I work 50 hours a week.
I do everything for my children.
(35:36):
The last thing I need is youtelling me that I should be
better than I am.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
I'm good enough, thank you, and I'll quite put it
in those words that's actuallythe crux of what I was getting
to, because you've got someone,many things on their plate and
we almost feel the guilt, yes,of saying well, you're great,
but it would be even better ifwe bear the weight of that.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
What they hear is you're not good enough, yes, so
you say you're great, but andthen you've lost your great
because it could be.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
You're great and yes, how about we look at?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
yes, it's really really hard to get that message.
The only way to do it is tomodel it, to live it.
So school leaders have to sayI'm really proud of our school
and what we do, but here aresome things that we can be even
better at we'll speak aboutthemselves I'm really great at
this to share but I'm not greatat this exactly and to share if
(36:30):
they're classroom practitionersas well which many school
leaders, of course to talk aboutthat in terms of their practice
.
So I did this survey with mystudents to find out what they
thought.
There were some things theyliked and said were good.
There were some things that Ididn't.
I didn't.
I wasn't so keen to hear thatthey didn't like as much.
These are things I can work on,so to share that openly when
(36:53):
leaders do that is reallypowerful, because it gives
everyone the license to say,well, okay, so we don't have to
be perfect.
It's all right to admit thatthere are things we're working
on.
That culture changes whenleaders do that themselves.
So if you think an improvementmindset is important, it has to
be for you as well as a leader,not just, oh, you know, try and
(37:16):
get everyone else to do it, butI'm not or get the troops to
improve, exactly.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, just get them to improve.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Live that yourself and model it, and then you'll
start to get some buy-in and noteveryone for sure, but work
with the people who are, youknow, good to work with, who are
keen to interact, who are keento learn, because the more you
do that that's a kind of richerplace to start.
I think there will be some whoare keen.
You work with them, they startto have a fabulous experience,
(37:45):
to be demonstrably improving,and then everyone else will want
to have part of that.
You don't have to force it onthem.
I, you.
The efficacy, feelings domatter, the belief that you can
do things, that you can getbetter.
How do we boost that for peoplewho, um, don't have good
self-esteem?
It's very, very hard.
(38:05):
But you know we're doing thatin classrooms for young people.
Every day we have classroomsfull of kids who don't have high
self-esteem.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
I think that's that effortful approach where we know
this isn't easy, but it'snecessary because in order to
have high-impact learning,meaningful learning, happen at
all levels, we need to applyourselves in what matters, which
is learning in the classroom.
So I think that shift uh, it'sa paradigm shift for some yeah
(38:34):
where it's very organized orgchart.
I'm reigning over these teamsand it has to be a more of a
cyclical relationship, justlastly, okay, and I know we've
been speaking probably longerthan i- we did.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
That's fine, really me it's really interesting
conversation You're going tohave to edit it down?
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, no, I probably not, because everything we've
spoken about might make upmultiple clips.
But just lastly, you mentionedthe point about your evidence,
reviews and your toolkit beingavailable in multiple languages,
and that's something despite mebeing very au fait with that
because, I hadn't seen it indifferent languages.
So I'd love for you to justtake the opportunity to tell
(39:14):
everyone.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So we wrote the review.
I mean, you mentioned SuttonTrust, but what Makes Great
Teaching was again the thingthat followed on from the
teaching and learning toolkitthat became the EF thing and
from that then five years, thatwas 2014.
Then in 2019, we thought, okay,we should update this thing and
(39:36):
that's what the Great TeachingToolkit Evidence Review was
really.
It was an update and wepublished that and it changed a
little bit.
I think the focus is more kindof practical application, usable
thing for practitioners,whereas the first one was a bit
more theoretical.
Um, anyway, we published thisthing and people just came to us
(39:56):
and said this is reallypowerful, it's really useful.
Uh, but we're working in.
I think the first one was chinaand we want to have a chinese
translation.
Are you interested?
And we said yes, we'reabsolutely interested, and
translation is a is achallenging game because it has
to be localized, it has tocontext has to work, but also
(40:18):
the kind of technical educationlanguage and research language.
So you can't it's not, noteveryone can do it.
You have to be a fluent speakerof the language but also
understand the education contextand understand the research and
that's quite a.
You know, if you think aboutthose Venn diagrams, it's not,
there aren't many people,there's a really narrow sweet
(40:38):
spot there is, yeah.
So we were lucky to find peoplewho wanted to do that and
they've done it.
You know it's been throughvarious different kinds of
quality assurance.
So, yeah, the Chinese one tobegin with.
I think Arabic may have beenthe second.
Welsh came quite early becausewe were working with a lot of
schools in Wales and then theothers have followed, literally
just because a group of schoolshave said we'd like this and
(41:05):
we're happy to lead on thattranslation process and we've
said fantastic fill your bootsBrilliant.
So there'll be more as well.
We've got all those languages.
I think Swedish was the lastone we've got.
We've got Spanish, brazilian,portuguese, arabic, chinese,
welsh.
There's maybe one other Anywaythat's the story.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Importantly for the language, the schools that have
a language focus for example,we've got Italian and French
schools and so forth the toolkitis available for them to
convert into their schools in alinguistically appropriate and
pedagogically appropriate way?
Speaker 2 (41:42):
We hope so.
Yes, and if it isn't availablein your language currently, come
and talk to us, because we'dlove it to be, and it's great
that more and more people use it.
It's available on.
All those different languageversions are available on the
website for free.
Anyone can just download it andread.
Obviously, the other tools thatsupport people in using it are
not free.
That's a that's.
(42:02):
There's a lot more value inthat, but um, you know it's a.
It's a real principle ofeverything we do that we want as
many people as possible tobenefit from it.
So where we possibly can, wemake things available for free
on that note, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
We've had a really in-depth, insightful,
challenging as well conversationabout contemporary issues in uh
, the middle east, leadership,um, and and how we can overcome
those challenges.
Thank you so much for your timethank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
It's been great I really enjoyed it.
Hi, rob Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Zubir.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
A pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Likewise.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I've had the opportunity to have mini chats
with you.
Yes, got a chance to experienceyour keynote, really get to
grips with the currentdevelopments in the Great
Teaching Toolkit.
I'd like you to first give ourleaders and we're at the Middle
East School LeadershipConference by the way give the
leaders who are listening andthe educators listening a sense
(00:25):
of your keynote today okay, justa short elevator pitch.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yes, yeah, uh, okay.
Well, it's about leadership,which obviously people are
interested in, and the idea that, uh, the most important thing
leaders do is to build theexpertise of their staff,
because it's classrooms wherelearning happens.
Schools are about learning.
Let's keep the focus on themain thing and the thing that
determines how much learning isreally the expertise of teachers
(00:52):
in classrooms and what they do,and so school leaders have to
maximize that and optimize that,and the strongest lever that
they have is to focus onprofessional development and how
they frame that, how they offerit, how much time they give to
it, what they do with that timeto make it effective, because it
is that's the thing thatinfluences teacher expertise and
(01:15):
it's it's the gift that keepson giving.
I didn't say this in the talk,but you know, if I learn to be a
better teacher gradually overtime, every class I teach
benefits from that for the restof my career.
It's not like an interventionwhere you you get it while
you're doing it and then it itfades out which most do so.
The the argument, the rationalargument for saying this should
(01:37):
be our top priority, I think isoverwhelming.
That's at odds with a lot ofcurrent practice.
Where I mean in in england,surveys say that an average
teacher spends half an hour aweek on professional learning
out of a 50 hour working weekfor an average teacher.
So that's one percent.
That does not scream highestpriority to me.
(02:00):
That screams this.
We fit this in around the edgesand it should be the other way.
I'm not saying they shouldspend 49 and a half hours of
professional learning, but itshould be more than that how
much more.
Well, uh, I, we, we talk whenwe're talking with schools about
, for example, using the greatteaching toolkit, that if you
(02:20):
can't find an hour a week forevery member of staff, you're
unlikely to get the full benefit.
Now, schools will often raisean eyebrow when you say that,
because it feels like a lot Anhour a week to dedicate and we
talk about.
You know, a good model would beto find an hour a week for
(02:41):
meeting time where people gettogether and collaborate and
support each other.
And then on the other week, thehour is for individual study,
for collecting information andinsights about their own
classroom, perhaps using studentsurveys or video or other
techniques, looking at otherpeople, giving other colleagues
feedback.
So there's the kind of out ofmeeting, study and interaction.
(03:03):
And then there's the focus ofout of meeting, study and
interaction, and then there'sthe focus time in a meeting
where people are togetherhelping each other.
And if you can find an hour aweek, that's great, but I don't
think that's like a, an ultimatetarget.
I think that's a, that's kind ofminimum requirement if you can
find two hours a week, you know.
So one of the questions I wouldhave is would you rather, how
(03:26):
do you find the time and themoney to do this.
Well, one of the ways you cando it is by teaching bigger
classes, because the economicsof this is quite simple if you
teach more children in the room,then, uh, the unit costs of
delivering that go downabsolutely and um, therefore,
you've got money and time toplay with.
No teacher wants to teach abigger class, but as a parent,
(03:52):
one of the questions I would askis would you rather have a
really excellent teacher withyour class in a class of 30, or
an okay teacher with your, yourchild in a class of 25, or just
a kind of mediocre teacher withyour child in the class of 25,
or just a kind of mediocreteacher with your child in the
class of 20?
And I would always have theexpert teacher with the class of
(04:13):
30 it's interesting you took meback to GCSE.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
In my own learner experience, every teacher in the
science team used to havemonday lunchtime okay so monday
lunch dedicated in year 10towards revising what was
learned, and we had this oneteacher that everybody knew that
he did these kind of powersessions okay yeah, through
(04:39):
topics right image okay, Ireally went into detail worth
attending those his.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
There were other teachers who got a turnout of 10
yeah, of dean of year 10 andour year 10 was about 400, 600
children was a big school and umthis particular teacher who
happened to be my form tutor.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So at the end of lunchtime we'd go on a monday
and see the room was so fullokay, to the door right because
everyone wanted a piece of that,that 40 minutes so that it's
interesting that you say thatyeah and it took me yes to that.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
So it I think there is some well a great teacher can
manage a big group, and youknow it's harder, it's more work
.
You know it's harder, it's morework.
For sure it's more difficult inmany ways.
It's difficult when you're in afee-paying school to persuade
people that that's what they'repaying for.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Or justify.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Justify yes, yeah, but if we lived in a rational
world which you know, I know wedon't people would be saying yes
, I rather have, uh, my child ina big class with a really great
teacher than in a small class.
So if we could find a way tosell that to teachers which
again, I know is a challenge um,you could teach if, if the
(05:58):
choice for a teacher could bethat you teach a full timetable
over five days, let's say, ifyou have a five-day working week
with classes of 25, or youteach bigger classes of 30, but
you only teach four days and youhave a whole day for
professional development and thecosts are quite similar for
(06:20):
those sorts of numbers.
I mean, you know, you reducethe teaching by a fifth, you
increase the numbers by a fifth,it sort of works out roughly
speaking.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Do you know of any schools who've piloted this Well
?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I know some schools who have freed up time for
professional learning.
They're not always verytransparent about how they've
done that, or the measurableimpact at that time.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I know, but it's difficult.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
And I think that's the challenge, that's the
barrier, I think, because, as Isay, in a rational world, if you
believed that the time youspend on professional learning
would pay back in a way, in theway that the research says it
can do, then it'd be ano-brainer.
You just say, yeah, we, we wantto free up this time.
We'd have give people a wholeday a week to spend on their
(07:05):
professional development andwe'd find a way to do that
because it's the most importantthing.
You know, schools are reallyvalue-driven places.
They're all about purpose.
The purpose is to to helpyoungsters, to help them learn
stuff, to help them grow to beadults and take part in society
and all of that stuff, and to dothat we need great teachers.
So everything that we can dothat makes teaching great, we
(07:27):
should do that thing.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
It's really that simple I think, though, I can
hear the whispers from thosepotentially watching this
thinking if our board yes we'remade aware that we have the
capacity to teach bigger groupswith the same impact.
All that will happen is ourtimetable will grow.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Just be given grow.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
You'll be given more and that professional
development time would still beutilized for lessons?
Yeah to increase the capacityof the school and it would be
seen as a, as a.
Do you see it?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
yes, it'd be worse than where you were before
exactly yes so I obviously Iwouldn't advocate that.
I think it will depend on thecontext.
In some contexts school leadershave that power to decide.
Certainly many schools inEngland that would be the case.
Schools here I think some do is, my sense, more about kind of
(08:26):
delivering well, making moneyperhaps in some cases, or
certainly delivering accordingto a set of expectations.
And those expectations are veryvaried.
They come from the parents andthe community, they come from
inspection processes and otherkinds of accountability, and you
can't not do those things youhave to.
If you don't satisfy yourmarket and you don't satisfy the
regulators and you don'tdeliver on those key outcomes,
(08:49):
no one's going to think you'resucceeding.
And that's quite right.
Unless those regulatory systemsare really misaligned, then
it's not wrong that you shouldhave to tick those boxes, but it
is wrong if you think that'sall we have to do.
True, they shouldn't be a check.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Know they shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
They should be a check they shouldn't be the
be-all and end-all and that'snot a school.
If, if all a school does issatisfy inspectors and
regulators and parents, it's nota school I want my children to
go to.
It's not a school I want towork in, because it's just a
really impoverished view of whateducation is about isn't it yes
(09:28):
and no?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I agree and disagree in part, and I'm gonna explain
why.
Because and I haven't reallysaid this on camera before I
have a daughter with additionalneeds.
Okay, um, she wouldn't be ableto cope in a classroom?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yes, in a big class.
And I was interjecting whileyou were still making your point
.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Premium schools.
One of the things about theatmosphere that they're trying
to project to parents is thisidea that their child will have
a personalised learning journeyand that attention is quite
targeted to the child, and itbegs for the question if the
class was bigger yeah and theschool was bigger yes would
(10:12):
every child feel seen, hurt andvalued enough?
Yes, learning to therefore beaffected on them?
Yes, so that's, that's, so,that's really, really important.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, there are some children, you know.
Additional needs covers a widerange of things, some of which
do need very intensive, veryindividualized personal experts.
Let's put that out there.
This is not just about havinganother body to be with them.
It's about someone who reallyreally understands the
(10:42):
challenges, what they need, howto help.
So there are some childrenwhere that is a requirement and
if we are a civilized society,we should we should fund that.
Yeah, but that's an extra.
That's not the kind of regularcost of, uh, everyday
instruction.
That's an extra requirementthat makes the world fair.
You know, it's like puttingramps in so wheelchairs can get
(11:03):
out.
Yeah, making things accessibleto everyone, and you know it's
like putting ramps in sowheelchairs can get out.
Yeah, making things accessibleto everyone and you know that's
a principle and I wouldn'twouldn't waver on that that we
meet where people have differentneeds.
We have to meet those needs.
But I don't think it followsfrom that that in order to feel
you belong, to feel seen to, tobe respected, to have an
(11:24):
identity, belong to anorganization, it doesn't follow
that you have to always be insmall groups.
In fact, I would say it'spretty much irrelevant the size
of the group.
It's about the relationshipsthat you have, it's about the
culture, it's about the values,and you can achieve that with
big groups or you can achieve itwith small groups, you know,
(11:45):
provided those specialist needsare met.
I don't think it follows that.
Now, I know, um, you know,parents in general will have a
preference to say well, it's anice small group, it's nurturing
, it's friendly, it's good orthey will want that.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
It's the the amount of time that yeah it's this
division concept that if ateacher has this many minutes
and it's divided the mathematicspeople feel bad.
That being said, I'm notdisagreeing.
I'm just saying that that's thepopular belief that we would
face the challenge we'd face asleaders.
To try and justify that, theimpact of this teacher?
(12:23):
Yes, irrespective of minutes.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Okay is different yes to this yes, model, I know, and
there's a whole debate to havethere and one of the things that
drew me into talking aboutpedagogy in the first place
because I was a researcher.
My research was aboutassessment mostly, and I um, I
was in and and evidence andevaluation.
That's what I was interested inNothing to do with classroom
(12:47):
practice.
And then I was involved in athing that became the EF, the
Education Endowment Foundation'sTeaching Learning Toolkit.
This was originally a thing forthe Sutton Trust.
This was in 2010.
We started writing this and itwas a summary of what the best
evidence available says aboutdifferent interventions.
Still on.
(13:08):
The EF is still promoting.
It's still widely used schoolleaders and everybody else.
People in England know about itabsolutely, and you're nodding,
right, so this was a new thingthere, and the reason we did it
was because um, it was we werecoming up to an election in
England, 2010, and all three ofthe main parties were saying we
would have some kind of pupilpremium.
(13:30):
That was a new thing then.
It didn't exist before, and wethought that meant extra money
for schools, although, lookingback, that isn't quite how it
played out.
And so school leaders, suttonTrust, did a survey and they
said to school leaders how wouldyou spend this extra money?
And they said we would hiremore teachers and have smaller
classes and we'd hire moreteaching assistants and those
(13:53):
are both really expensive thingsfor a school to do.
And they were the kind of topfavourites.
That things was that they wouldhave a small effect which was
not as big as many other thingsthat they could have spent that
money on.
So not that there's no effectof having a smaller class, it's
(14:15):
just one of the most expensivethings you can do and it's a
modest effect.
So if you're following theevidence, you probably wouldn't
do that.
At least that wouldn't be yourfirst go-to.
And we thought well, why arepeople saying this thing that's
so against the evidence?
Well, because they don't knowwhat the evidence says so, let's
produce an accessible summary.
And that's the piece of workthat was led by Steve Higgins,
(14:38):
who was my colleague at Durham,and I was part of that original
thing and then it got taken overand I wasn't involved after
that so much, but I wasdefinitely part of the the
creation of it and that's why wedid it.
And then we put this thing outand it said class sizes don't
matter as much as you thinkthey'll matter, and that was a
shocking message I it was a.
(14:59):
It was well received.
I think the whole the toolkitand I was often asked to speak
about it to audiences ofteachers and I would say this
thing I, you know, like to becontroversial, upset people when
I'm talking or give themsomething to think about.
Let's put that in a nicer way.
So I would say you know, classsizes don't make as much
(15:21):
difference, and teachers wouldbe absolutely sure that I was
wrong and they'd want to argue.
You know, that's that's theprevailing.
Yeah, that's changed in Englandnow people don't want to argue
about it anymore.
Other places they maybe do, andfor me that was incredibly rich
discussion because it basicallygot down.
(15:43):
I would well.
Why do you think you can be moreeffective in a small class?
Why do you think more learninghappens in a small class than a
big class?
And they would say things likewe can give more individual
attention.
And I would say something likeokay, so imagine you've got a
one hour lesson and a class of30 children.
If you do nothing other thanindividual attention, that's two
(16:05):
minutes per child.
And what is each child doing inthe other 58 minutes?
Is that a great pedagogy?
No, it isn't so.
At most you're you've got twominutes of individual attention
and the reality is you probablymost children don't get any and
and some get a bit, but it's afew seconds out of an hour's
lesson.
So to be an effective teacher,you have to have strategies that
(16:29):
enable you to interactproductively with youngsters in
a way that isn't one-to-one,because one-to-one unless you
get down to about five orcertainly ten one-to-one is just
a really inefficient strategy.
So give me an example, I wouldsay, of a strategy that you
(16:49):
think can work with a class of15.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
That doesn't work with a class of 30.
I think the important words yousaid there was productive yeah
and being um efficient yes, timeas well, both of those are
critical to ensure, and my mindwent to the, the the spheres of
zone of proximal developmentwhen you're speaking, yeah and
sometimes there's a topic withina sequence where 50% of the
(17:17):
children are in the inner circlewhere they already are able to
do the learning efficiently andwithout assistance.
If that's the case, are we thenstill giving them their two
minutes?
Probably not.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
In practice not, we're probably going to focus on
the children and it's very hardto who need the interventions?
Yeah, the children who have.
Yeah no prerequisite yes, yes,knowledge of that topic to bring
them in.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, so do we really give equal time?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
no, we give equitable time to children in the
classroom so I think that theargument falls well, and when
you, when you describe that, thecomplexity of managing all
those, the different childrenwith their different starting
points, their different needs,their different appetites, their
different attitudes they'redifferent uh, all the
interactions between them, itjust sounds like there's no way
(18:08):
anyone could do this.
It's just too hard, yeah.
And yet go into any school,literally any school in the, and
you will see teachers doingthat.
Yes, you know, schools thatpeople have said are not good,
you will find teachers doingthat thing, because every school
has those teachers and some,when you see the best do it,
(18:29):
it's phenomenal.
It just makes you well up andthe hairs on the back of your
neck go up and you just thinkthis is incredible.
Yeah, so how do they do it?
I don't know, they'resuperhuman and they're
extraordinary, but they're doingit every day.
You know, while we're sat herespeaking, there are teachers,
you know, less than a mile fromus, I'm sure, in schools, doing
that very thing.
And so if you are a teacher andyou want to, you're kind of
(18:53):
puzzled by well, how can, howcan that be?
How can I manage thisimpossible challenge?
The answer is don't ask me,because I'm a researcher.
Go and look at another schoolnearby where somebody is doing
it well, and talk to that personand build those networks of
support, because your colleaguesare doing this, even if you're
not, and probably you are too,actually.
So maybe all you need is justto be told you're already doing
(19:16):
it well and just keep going.
But we can learn from otherpeople, and we should, and
that's where the answer is.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Speaking of learning and adult learning, professional
learning in education.
You touched earlier on thepoint of professional
development and we talked abouta guideline of number, of amount
of time.
I mean time is relative andwhat we do with our time.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Exactly, yeah.
And also, how do we defineprofessional learning and the
impact of?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
that.
My question is the Simzatelresource that you I know it well
Okay.
My work with the MPQs.
Yes.
I'm excited in that, yeah, andthe Sutton Trust is also excited
heavily for leaders to knowabout.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah and the.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Sutton Trust is also cited heavily for leaders to
know about.
But I'm pretty sure mosteducators, or anybody who's not
familiar with that work, aren'tnecessarily skilled to evaluate
the quality of professionaldevelopment when they create it.
So I'd love for you to give arun, a quick rundown of, of not
(20:17):
necessarily all 17 dimensions,but the gush right, okay, just
yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
The mechanism, the idea of mechanisms, yeah, 17
mechanisms, yeah okay.
Sense of yeah, pd is only asimpactful as, yes, knowing
what's in it yeah, I mean, it'sa great example of what I would
describe as evidence-basedpractitioner advice, because it
starts with a systematic reviewof what do we know about
professional development, andthere's lots of studies that
(20:46):
have tried to evaluate differentkinds of professional learning,
professional development, cpdand so we should start by well,
what do they tell us?
And the answer is that it'squite a mixed picture, but
broadly there is support for theidea that professional
development can make areasonably substantial
(21:07):
difference to how effectiveteachers are.
Teachers who engage with theright kinds of professional
development become moreeffective, become more effective
quicker than they would havedone if they hadn't.
So the overall case is there,and then what they tried to do
is not just to report thatheadline as a statistical
average but to say well, do weunderstand some of that
(21:29):
variation and do we understand,crucially, why?
So they focused on mechanismsand the idea that, if we think
about what we're trying to do inin professional development is
partly seen as learning, partlyseen as behavior change, and
though you know those two arenot separate, but they um, they
(21:50):
have, they come from differentum traditions in terms of how
people research.
So, for example, in health,there's a lot of research about
behavior change, how you getpeople to adopt more healthy
lifestyles, and those kinds ofthings.
You know, we've all tried to dothat, I'm sure, and we found it
very, very hard to changebehaviors yeah, changing yes and
(22:10):
it's uh.
you know many other examples,you know I I talked to examples
about things like learning aninstrument.
Again, you might have had theexperience where you had one
teacher and they told you tohold your bow this way or
something, and then a newteacher came along and they said
, oh, not like that.
And it just felt excruciatinglyuncomfortable to change
(22:31):
something that you'd had thatwas working.
You thought it was fine, butsomebody else looks at it and
says, no, this is To be back topiano lessons.
Okay exactly yeah.
So your hands position Go thisway, not that way.
The thing about it to hang onto is that the change felt wrong
.
You felt like you were gettingworse.
(22:51):
You felt less comfortable.
You were getting worse, youfelt less comfortable and, uh,
it took a lot of work to makethe new thing the thing you do,
and you, maybe you didn'tsucceed.
I don't know.
But you know, eventually, ifyou persist with that, you
become comfortable with the newway and if the advice is right.
you become better, you know yoursound is improved or your
(23:13):
ability?
Speaker 1 (23:13):
yeah, play, I think, a good analogy, for that might
actually be learning to drive,and then, becoming a driver and
then learning to be aninstructor of those who drive.
The instructor level will havedifferent, pedals will have
different mechanisms anddifferent tools to enable the
driver to be an advanced driver,because oftentimes when people
(23:37):
hear professional developmentthey think, um, am I lesser than
the standard?
okay, deficit model, right, hecomes into people that well,
professional development andthis comes back to the point you
made in your keynote that do weonly focus on an improvement
mindset for those on a yeah andthose on a plp?
(23:58):
Yes, different things, but umthis idea that you're doing okay
because we've got thisinspection rating that we're
trying to maintain, yeah, solet's focus our attention on the
price.
Terrible, terrible way to goabout but if you've only got so
much time, yeah would it not bea slippery slope that you could
slide down quite easily?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
to to fall into that?
Yes, of course crisismanagement.
Okay, well, these are thecrisis if you're in a crisis,
crisis management is right.
If your building's on fire, youneed to put out all the fires.
You can't say, oh, I'mprioritizing this one because
the other one's going to burnyour house down.
So if that's genuinely thecontext and if you are a leader,
and that's the school andthat's your context, well, you
(24:40):
know, I feel for you and that'sa different game.
So, if you're in a crisis,crisis management.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
But we would say that if you are consistently crisis
managing, professionaldevelopment that is a trend that
we need to address yes, andit's not a crisis Exactly, or at
least it's not a sustainableway to live your life.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
So if you're consistently in a crisis because
you're failing to see what theopportunities are and to think
longer term and to prioritisewhat's important versus what's
urgent, then that's a failure ofleadership and that's on you.
Versus what's urgent, thenthat's a failure of leadership
and that's on you.
If you're in a crisis becauseyou don't have any power to do
(25:21):
anything other than just tomanage a crisis, then my advice
would be leave and get anotherjob, because you know it will
kill you and it's not a niceplace to be and it's out of your
control and that's not theschool leader you want to be.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Well, maybe some people do, I don't know but the
survival instinct keeps youthere, but you probably wouldn't
be able to, and in the theme ofthe conference being, uh, being
, building a sustainable legacy.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's not sustainable, it's toxic and you, you need to
look around and say, well, do Iwant this?
I mean, I don't know if that'shelpful advice, but I, I do
think we, we, we sometimes havethese narratives around the sort
of stress and the crisis andthe outside pressures.
And yes, of course they'rethere.
I'm not saying they're not, Ithink they can be.
(26:09):
They're certainly very real,they really really matter.
I mean, that's one of thethings that strikes me about the
context in UAE, particularlythat the stakes attached.
I mean head teachers in Englandtalk about high stakes or in
relation to off-stakes.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I think it's worse here.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yes, yeah, really really matters, and it's more
regular as well.
Inspection process, for example.
There's zero tolerance of evenjust slight falling away from
being the highest do you thinkthat's counterproductive?
Yes, I do, yeah yeah, I thinkwell, I don't know, I think well
let's not be so hard-hitting.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Perhaps it's a impeding, or inhibiting yes kind
of professional developmentthat's truly embedded.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
I think it's a reason why we're not thinking as much
about the longer term, about thereally authentic, sustainable
solutions that really make adifference to the things that
are important, and it's veryhard to have that conversation
with yourself and tostrategically think about what
matters here when you've gotthese drivers all the time kind
(27:14):
of beating on your door sayingyou have to do this, you have to
do this, you have to do this.
Good leaders are able to managethat, I'm absolutely sure, and
you know they're here in this,this building today.
I've spoken with some of themwho make me think that's what
they're doing, but they do it byprotecting people from that
pressure they don't pass thatpressure on and they actually
(27:36):
internalise it.
Yes, maybe and that's hard thatis hard for them, but maybe to
some extent that is part of thejob.
Some people do that really welland I think it's great that
they do.
I think we all need to havepressure.
I'm not saying we should justhave a free-for-all and nobody
ever looks to see whether it'sgood or not.
We should definitely knowwhat's good.
We should have pressure, but itshouldn't be the kind of
(28:01):
unrelenting pressure thatdoesn't give you space.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Or stifle people to actually have a go.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
You're afraid to try anything, you're afraid to say
invest in professional learning,because you think I've just got
to tick these boxes and unlessI do that, my job's under threat
and the school's under threat,and you know all these people's
livelihoods and you go down this, this spiral of anxiety about
that thing, so you haven't gotspace to just think about what's
(28:29):
important.
Can we try something different?
If you try something different,you're taking a risk, and you
need to.
People need to feel empoweredto take a bit of it.
If you're not taking a risk,you're not really doing the job,
are you?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
What would you say would be your advice for a
leader who is research-informed,who understands the dynamics of
scaffolding and monitoring andfeedback and really has a strong
sense of that in their ownpractice.
They're a good practitioner.
They're able to translate thatin their own practice, yeah,
(29:02):
when they go to their team right?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
yeah, and they are with a department.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yes, and then you've got variable levels of
skepticism you've got some whothink, well, well, that works in
the UK schools where they don'thave EADL students.
There's this cynicism ofcontextual relevance of
widespread research.
And they well, the theorists,don't know my challenges.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
It becomes personal to them.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
What would be your advice to a leader who?
Has to bring in the best of theresearch yes, into a context
and make it convincing yeah butalso relevant.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yes, okay, your advice well I I think this is a
real challenge and a bigchallenge and it's very
difficult.
I think the example you gaveearlier of the you know the good
driver who becomes a drivinginstructor.
It's a different set of skills.
Being a great teacher is notthe same as managing a team of
(30:04):
people, so there are differentskills involved and that's
important, I think.
First of all, I think that theknowledge that that person has
being research-informed,understanding pedagogy all of
that helps them.
It does make a differencebecause their job is to manage
that team, but to manage thatteam in a specific activity
which is teaching and learning.
(30:25):
And so being an expert in thatthemselves does give them
strength.
I think it's important theyneed to focus on things that
really really matter.
They need to focus on thingsthat really really matter.
I don't think we get um, I I.
I think it's.
It's rarely the case that oneteacher should tell another
teacher how to do something,because in my experience, when
(30:47):
that's happened to me, ifsomeone else has said, oh, you
should do this, I've always justthought, well, that's your
advice, that's your opinion,that works for you.
I'm, I'm, some, I'm.
Sometimes it's helpful.
Quite often it isn't so, um,but I do think that teachers
should understand.
I talked about the need tounderstand the theory.
So if the research informedteacher knows about the science
(31:11):
of learning and what learning isand how it happens, they'll
know about, um, how things gointo short-term memory.
But they really don't stay forvery long and we can't process
very much Sure working memory.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Working memory yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
But some of that ends up then getting transferred
into long-term memory, which isobviously much bigger and much
longer lasting.
So that's the aim.
How do we do that?
By processing?
And so that's the aim.
How do we do that by processing?
And so that's the.
You know, how do we getstudents to do?
That model is helpful if ithelps us to think about process
(31:44):
and it leads us to do thingslike retrieval, practice spacing
so that we give time to forget,and so on.
And if you didn't know thattheory, some teachers just
instinctively think well, that'swhat you know.
We did this last week.
We need to just check if it'sthere, but most don't.
When I was a teacher, Icertainly didn't.
I would teach a topic.
(32:05):
Students could do it.
I think, great, they've gotthis.
We'd come back literally thenext day and they couldn't do it
and I would just be hitting myhead and frustrated thinking,
how can this be?
You could do this yesterday,why can't you do it today?
I was annoyed with them, if I'mhonest.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
And I now think well, what an idiot Did you see it as
a reflection of your ownaptitude or your abilities?
Up to a point I suppose.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
But no, I thought it was just them being perverse,
which is just ridiculous becauseit happens again and again and
again, and after a while youmight think OK, whoever's fault
this is, you can't just be indenial about it.
You need to address it andthink about why it is and what
you can do.
Maybe to some extent I did, butI don't think I really did
(32:51):
properly.
I just thought I didn'tunderstand why I think and
therefore it just seemed a bitbizarre.
I didn't understand why I thinkand therefore it just seemed a
bit bizarre.
And I think if I'd known a bitmore about memory and how it
works, I might have been betterable to respond to that.
So that bit of theory wouldhave helped me in adapting you
had some aha moments followingthat exactly.
Yeah, a lot of yeah, thinkingabout oh okay, I wasn't that
(33:13):
great, was I?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Looking back very much.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
so yeah, you mentioned the point earlier as
well.
Sorry getting in there, becauseit's exactly on this point that
most leaders, teachers,educators think they are better
than they are All right.
So that's, one idea.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I want you to hold.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
And then I want you to hold the other idea that
often the teachers who are themost self-critical yeah and I
found this in my coaching.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, they are the ones who are hardest on
themselves but at the cost oftheir well-being, yes, and those
who think they're great yes arethe ones who don't have the
anxiety of the improvementmindset yeah how would you
manage?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
okay?
Speaker 2 (33:56):
yeah, well, okay, so these are classic management
challenges, aren't they aboutdealing with human beings and
all the variety?
And you're right, you have somepeople who are more confident
than they should be and somepeople who are less confident
they should be.
Obviously, there are somegender relationships there as
well that tend to be correlatedwith that or different other
kinds of characteristics, andcultural and cultural, yes,
(34:18):
exactly, and we should be awareof those, but not limit people
by those characteristics, buttake each one as they are.
I think the efficacy isimportant, so the belief that
you have agency here, that youhave control, that you can make
a difference.
So it's all about trying tohelp people, not to think about
(34:42):
what matters is how good I amtoday, but what matters is what
direction am I traveling in andwhat am I?
Am I the owner of that journeyor am I just being buffeted a
feather?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
in the wind?
Do you mean like aspirationally?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yes, aspirationally, for sure.
So if you ask teachers howimportant is it to you to be
better at your job, you'll get arange of answers.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
It sounds like a coaching conversation exactly
some people will say it'sabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
It's everything to me .
I want to be the best I can be.
I know that's hard, I know Ihave to work at it.
But and I know that some of youknow, like any other kind of
learning, that can be bruisingwhere I find that I'm not doing
as well as I thought I was.
But I'm up for that.
That's my challenge.
Other Other teachers will saylook, this is a tough job.
I work 50 hours a week.
I do everything for my children.
(35:36):
The last thing I need is youtelling me that I should be
better than I am.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
I'm good enough, thank you, and I'll quite put it
in those words that's actuallythe crux of what I was getting
to, because you've got someone,many things on their plate and
we almost feel the guilt, yes,of saying well, you're great,
but it would be even better ifwe bear the weight of that.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
What they hear is you're not good enough, yes, so
you say you're great, but andthen you've lost your great
because it could be.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
You're great and yes, how about we look at?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
yes, it's really really hard to get that message.
The only way to do it is tomodel it, to live it.
So school leaders have to sayI'm really proud of our school
and what we do, but here aresome things that we can be even
better at we'll speak aboutthemselves I'm really great at
this to share but I'm not greatat this exactly and to share if
(36:30):
they're classroom practitionersas well which many school
leaders, of course to talk aboutthat in terms of their practice
.
So I did this survey with mystudents to find out what they
thought.
There were some things theyliked and said were good.
There were some things that Ididn't.
I didn't.
I wasn't so keen to hear thatthey didn't like as much.
These are things I can work on,so to share that openly when
(36:53):
leaders do that is reallypowerful, because it gives
everyone the license to say,well, okay, so we don't have to
be perfect.
It's all right to admit thatthere are things we're working
on.
That culture changes whenleaders do that themselves.
So if you think an improvementmindset is important, it has to
be for you as well as a leader,not just, oh, you know, try and
(37:16):
get everyone else to do it, butI'm not or get the troops to
improve, exactly.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, just get them to improve.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Live that yourself and model it, and then you'll
start to get some buy-in and noteveryone for sure, but work
with the people who are, youknow, good to work with, who are
keen to interact, who are keento learn, because the more you
do that that's a kind of richerplace to start.
I think there will be some whoare keen.
You work with them, they startto have a fabulous experience,
(37:45):
to be demonstrably improving,and then everyone else will want
to have part of that.
You don't have to force it onthem.
I, you.
The efficacy, feelings domatter, the belief that you can
do things, that you can getbetter.
How do we boost that for peoplewho, um, don't have good
self-esteem?
It's very, very hard.
(38:05):
But you know we're doing thatin classrooms for young people.
Every day we have classroomsfull of kids who don't have high
self-esteem.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
I think that's that effortful approach where we know
this isn't easy, but it'snecessary because in order to
have high-impact learning,meaningful learning, happen at
all levels, we need to applyourselves in what matters, which
is learning in the classroom.
So I think that shift uh, it'sa paradigm shift for some yeah
(38:34):
where it's very organized orgchart.
I'm reigning over these teamsand it has to be a more of a
cyclical relationship, justlastly, okay, and I know we've
been speaking probably longerthan i- we did.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
That's fine, really me it's really interesting
conversation You're going tohave to edit it down?
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, no, I probably not, because everything we've
spoken about might make upmultiple clips.
But just lastly, you mentionedthe point about your evidence,
reviews and your toolkit beingavailable in multiple languages,
and that's something despite mebeing very au fait with that
because, I hadn't seen it indifferent languages.
So I'd love for you to justtake the opportunity to tell
(39:14):
everyone.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So we wrote the review.
I mean, you mentioned SuttonTrust, but what Makes Great
Teaching was again the thingthat followed on from the
teaching and learning toolkitthat became the EF thing and
from that then five years, thatwas 2014.
Then in 2019, we thought, okay,we should update this thing and
(39:36):
that's what the Great TeachingToolkit Evidence Review was
really.
It was an update and wepublished that and it changed a
little bit.
I think the focus is more kindof practical application, usable
thing for practitioners,whereas the first one was a bit
more theoretical.
Um, anyway, we published thisthing and people just came to us
(39:56):
and said this is reallypowerful, it's really useful.
Uh, but we're working in.
I think the first one was chinaand we want to have a chinese
translation.
Are you interested?
And we said yes, we'reabsolutely interested, and
translation is a is achallenging game because it has
to be localized, it has tocontext has to work, but also
(40:18):
the kind of technical educationlanguage and research language.
So you can't it's not, noteveryone can do it.
You have to be a fluent speakerof the language but also
understand the education contextand understand the research and
that's quite a.
You know, if you think aboutthose Venn diagrams, it's not,
there aren't many people,there's a really narrow sweet
(40:38):
spot there is, yeah.
So we were lucky to find peoplewho wanted to do that and
they've done it.
You know it's been throughvarious different kinds of
quality assurance.
So, yeah, the Chinese one tobegin with.
I think Arabic may have beenthe second.
Welsh came quite early becausewe were working with a lot of
schools in Wales and then theothers have followed, literally
just because a group of schoolshave said we'd like this and
(41:05):
we're happy to lead on thattranslation process and we've
said fantastic fill your bootsBrilliant.
So there'll be more as well.
We've got all those languages.
I think Swedish was the lastone we've got.
We've got Spanish, brazilian,portuguese, arabic, chinese,
welsh.
There's maybe one other Anywaythat's the story.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Importantly for the language, the schools that have
a language focus for example,we've got Italian and French
schools and so forth the toolkitis available for them to
convert into their schools in alinguistically appropriate and
pedagogically appropriate way?
Speaker 2 (41:42):
We hope so.
Yes, and if it isn't availablein your language currently, come
and talk to us, because we'dlove it to be, and it's great
that more and more people use it.
It's available on.
All those different languageversions are available on the
website for free.
Anyone can just download it andread.
Obviously, the other tools thatsupport people in using it are
not free.
That's a that's.
(42:02):
There's a lot more value inthat, but um, you know it's a.
It's a real principle ofeverything we do that we want as
many people as possible tobenefit from it.
So where we possibly can, wemake things available for free
on that note, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
We've had a really in-depth, insightful,
challenging as well conversationabout contemporary issues in uh
, the middle east, leadership,um, and and how we can overcome
those challenges.
Thank you so much for your timethank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
It's been great I really enjoyed it.
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