March 1, 2025 • 42 mins
A profound discussion on the importance of safeguarding in education unfolds at the Middle East School Leadership Conference ( MESLC) with Zoubiya Ahmed and Priya Mitchell, highlighting how legacy and relationships between educators and students can shape a safe, nurturing environment. Our guest's experience showcases how collaborative efforts empower both educators and students.
- Exploring the theme of safeguarding as a fundamental aspect of education
- Building relationships and trust between educators and students
- The role of empowering educators in promoting effective safeguarding practices
- Addressing the challenges and cultural nuances in safeguarding
- Creating a culture of care in schools
- Reflecting on legacy and the importance of ongoing training and support
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Guest hosted by Zoubiya Ahmed
Connect with Zoubiya at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoubiya/
Connect with Priya Mitchell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/priya-mitchell-pmcsafeguarding/?originalSubdomain=ae
Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.
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Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi Priya, hi Priya, how are you today?
I'm doing great.
We're at the Middle East SchoolLeadership Conference on day
two.
We are indeed, and the theme ofthe conference is Building a
Leadership Legacy, leadingForward.
Yes, I would love to understandfrom you what that conference
theme of leadership legacy,building it and then leading
(00:21):
forward.
What does that mean to you assomeone who is known, renowned
for safeguarding and leading?
Safeguarding, yeah, it's.
It's interesting thinking aboutit and how it aligns with where
my career path has gone overthe last year or so.
So I should be working inschools in the middle east as a
dsl and counselor and as part ofthat, I created counselling
(00:44):
groups.
I created designatedsafeguarding league groups and
the legacy from that is that,even though I left Abu Dhabi
2021, those groups are stillgoing, which is wonderful to see
because, listening to Fionaearlier on about legacies, it's
about what you're building andthat it's when you're no longer
there that there's stillsomething there that has been
(01:04):
started.
So it's amazing to see thosetwo groups are still going.
And when I came back to theMiddle East, one of the things I
really wanted to do is say,okay, I can work in a school and
I can look after the wellbeingneeds, safeguarding needs of,
say, 1,900, 2,000 students.
But I want to do more than that.
I want to be able to go out andempower as many adults as
(01:26):
possible, to upskill them aroundwellbeing, around safeguarding,
so that what I'm able to do isbuild that legacy of
safeguarding across the UA.
So it's not about, okay, I wasin one particular school and
that's the legacy that has beenleft behind because I was there
as a DSL.
It's about what can I do toupskill as many adults as
(01:48):
possible so that we're allcreating a legacy safeguarding.
What I'm hearing from you isthat if the landscape is a safe
and safe and genuinely caring,yeah, and protected landscape,
yeah, and all the schools are onthat landscape.
Rather than a land view, youtook a more aerial view.
It's exactly what you're tryingto do with safeguarding.
(02:10):
Yes, I just want to go back tothe point you made about the
groups you created.
It might be that there'ssomebody who's watching or
listening, who wants to knowwhat made you start those groups
and how did you?
How, because there's a legacythere how did those groups?
Firstly, what was the point ofthe groups?
And then, how did you create asystem that made those groups
(02:34):
last.
Okay, so when I arrived in 2013, there were counsellors
beginning to be employed inschools, but it felt very much
like you were on your own and Iwas like, why are we doing this
on our own?
Surely we should be working asa group and looking at
challenges that that studentsare facing in schools together.
(02:57):
And that's where it started.
So I spoke to a counsellor atanother school and I was like,
why don't we do this?
Yeah, why don't we?
12 round a table, and it's now70, maybe plus counselors,
specialist professional learning, community and creating a
network.
When you had your first meeting,was it awkward or how was it
(03:19):
gosh?
I'm really having to think backnow with that memory was Was
there hurdles to be overcome,overstepped, trust-wise?
No, I think there was this needfor people wanting that sense
of belonging which, again, whenwe talk about safeguarding that
sense of belonging of, oh, we'reall doing this, we're all in
our silos, what can we dotogether to build on each
(03:42):
other's and share good practice?
There was an appetite for oneperson thinking in their school
I can't be the only one thatthis is important to and the
other person coming together sowhen those that it was organic,
almost start talking aboutabsolutely pressing issues,
absolutely.
And then the same thinghappened with the safeguarding,
because when I came, redeemer'slaw wasn't a thing and happened
(04:03):
whening.
It was a bit of a hit and miss,which I think in some ways it
still is, depending on whatschool you're in.
So again it was out of.
So ADEC had provided thistraining for a child protection
lead per school and there was agroup of us I still remember.
So it was a group of us and itwas like the naughty table in
the classroom where we were allsat there and we were all very
(04:25):
established safeguarding people.
The majority of people aroundthat table were teachers in like
senior leadership positions,and I was a social worker from
the UK, as I said, working as aDSL and counsellor, and at the
end of it we we got on reallywell, but it was.
It's a really lovely memoryactually of something that I did
very early on, of being in theUAE, and at the end of it I was
(04:46):
like why don't we have?
We need a group, we need to besharing good practice, and
that's where the seed wasplanted.
Do you think that's done enoughin the UAE or could it be done
better, what seeds being plantedor groups, both that people
have take the initiative to takea risk, because reaching out to
(05:07):
another practitioner fromanother school sometimes, and
especially in 2013 I was alsohere in the uae at that time it
was sometimes treacherousbecause there is a bit of a
competition between schools, soit's do.
Are we exposing our practicesor exposing incidents to our
(05:27):
competitors?
Would that be used against usor something?
There's like a whole mindset.
Absolutely, and I think whatworked in my favor is my head
head teacher at that time at theschool I was working in really
got past all in and safeguardingand he said competition needs
to be on the sports field, notwhen we're talking about student
wellbeing, student safeguardingand he 100% backed me.
(05:50):
I said go on, go and do this.
I think it's integrity that itneeds to underpin before we
think about the business side ofschools, for safeguarding and
wellbeing, business should notbe involved.
We should not be talking aboutmoney around.
Safeguarding, like Emily wassaying earlier on, it is a
culture.
It's more than a tick box.
(06:10):
It's more than compliance.
We need to have that culture ofcare in every school so that
children feel safe.
Children feel safe If they feelthat they've got someone they
can talk to.
The teaching and learning isalways going to be better.
The achievement of that childis going to be better.
The achievement of that childis going to be better.
It underpins everything thathappens in a school.
We have to have safeguarding atthe highest possible level that
(06:32):
it can be so bringing peopletogether.
They've got that same kind ofmindset who want to.
So people out there who maybewant to be part of these groups,
they need to get involved inthese groups because
safeguarding is it's.
It's highly emotive, it's.
If you're, if you'resafeguarding lead, you can be
left feeling really drained andalso confidentiality aspect of
(06:52):
it means that you're sometimescarrying heavy burdens of
sometimes tricky, disturbing,confusing situations and
sometimes you're not able totalk to everybody about it and
it can weigh heavy absolutely.
And one of the things thatwe've been trying to push,
especially like with bsme, isthat reflective supervision
piece for dsls so that they havethat monthly space to
(07:15):
themselves schools I thinkschool leadership haven't quite
got on board with why that'simportant.
So having these kind of peergroups at least provide some
form of support in terms ofsharing good practice and I'm
like we're having these problemsin our school, what's happening
in your school and sharing thatthat works for us.
Have you tried that?
So it's at least DSLs aregetting some kind of input and
(07:36):
support within that role andagain, that's the legacy that
we're building.
Can I ask you a bit of acontroversial question?
Oh, please, do we likecontroversy?
We do, when we are working fora private school, yeah, when
we're working with entities thatmaybe have we're one branch out
of numerous schools that existin lots of different countries,
(07:59):
sometimes the school's group hasa centralized safeguarding
policy which is based on acertain country or their own
understanding of it.
Yeah, and then there are theregulators in each country.
That's their own set andthere's a lot of work that needs
to be done to align maybe acompany or organizational
safeguarding practice to oneschool.
(08:21):
And often, if there's more thanone school within a group in
one country, sometimes eventhose are not aligned in
practice.
Yeah, how much do you thinkthere's enough energy and
intention and effort and moneyput into making sure
safeguarding is on top of everyagenda?
(08:42):
I think that a lot of what isdone is a tick box exercise.
So schools will have a policy.
It's written fine, but is it alived policy.
I also think that often I hearthe this is what the regulator
wants us to do and I'm like butis it child-centred?
Is this child-centred?
(09:03):
At the end of the day, whenwe're doing safeguarding, the
child needs to remain at themiddle of all of the decisions
that are being made.
It's not about a regulator.
It's not about the branding ofthe school.
It's not about oh, what willour parents say.
It's about what is best forthat particular child, which is
why it can't be black or whitesafeguarding.
There's no black or white.
Sometimes it's very grey andyou have to find a path through
(09:25):
it.
That is the best way forward,which is why you need dsls
who've got integrity, who've gota voice, who are going to be a
bit of a pain, who are going tochallenge.
So all of those people.
Actually, that's the point Iwas trying to press on that
sometimes your dsls are notgoing to say things to you as a
leader who has got a wide lensview of the whole organization,
(09:48):
of the bottom line pressure, ofthe teaching, parent engagement.
We've got professionaldevelopment I was talking to of
the importance of impact andoutcomes.
But the umbrella over all ofthat is safeguarding in the
legislation requirements of thechildren in our care, which is
bigger than all of that, yes.
So, yes, your safeguardingleave might be a pain, but they
(10:10):
are a pain because it's theumbrella over everything.
How much heat have you seensafeguarding leaves get globally
, nationally?
So we come back to who shouldbe in a DSL role.
Okay, and it's very clear, theUK guidance, the DAA in Abu
(10:30):
Dhabi you know the statutoryguidance around there is that
the lead, whether it's a DSL,cpc, whatever we want to call
them, should never be theprincipal.
Why?
Because of that reason, thereshould always be somebody who
can challenge the person at thetop of the tree in that
particular school.
If they aren't doing their job,somebody needs to be able to
challenge them.
When that sounds some way, youcould get crushed.
(10:51):
Oh, rock and a hard, absolutely, as you're standing for the
highest standards of safety,aligned to the regulator
requirements.
And then you've got, maybe, aprincipal who's saying come back
next week because I can't meetabout that.
I'm dealing with a visitor, oractually.
No, this is what I need to doand no, this is the way it's
(11:11):
going to do.
I'm principal also like feelinglike you've been overridden,
even though you're standing forthe expectations.
Yeah, and it's a hard one.
The controversy around that isit's a hard one because people
that are DSLs we're all out hereon a is.
It's a hard one because peoplethat are DSLs we're all out
there on a contract.
It's sometimes a difficultposition where they feel that
safeguarding is maybe not whereit needs to be and you're
(11:32):
challenging, say, the principalIs it worth your job?
Is it worth your job?
And I was saying, ultimately,as a DSL, you are the advocate
for the most vulnerable child inthe school.
So if you're not going to useyour voice as that advocate to
ensure that the safeguardingpractice is as it should be, and
you aren't making sure thatthat child is being safeguarded,
(11:55):
then what is the point of youbeing in that role Off camera we
were talking about, if it's notgood for my child?
Yes, and can you dictate thatstory of what happened and what
you did and what you did next?
Could you dictate that to ajudge and feel proud of the
actions you took?
And could you say, 20 yearsdown the line, if you met that
(12:19):
child and they narrate theirexperience of school and said I
was terribly bullied, thishappened and you were the person
who could have done somethingabout it, could you face that
person with the actions you took?
And maybe that's the base as towhy I work as I do when I do
child protection in schools,because ultimately I come at it
(12:41):
from a social work background.
I did child protection inLondon for 11 years, frontline.
I had those very challengingconversations with parents.
I had those.
The things I have seen andwitnessed are things we don't
want to see and witness.
We both also touched on the factthat we've worked at some of
the challenging, the mostchallenging boroughs and the
(13:02):
most challenging anddisadvantaged situations.
That being said, just like yourpoint, affluent neglect and
some of the issues that comewith, yes, the difference
between, say, the UK and thechallenges in certain areas
there, but also the challengesof working in the Middle East,
where affluence doesn'tnecessarily equate to safe it's
(13:24):
safe, it's not knife crime typeof issues, and the issues that
arise are sometimes more subtleand nuanced for you to find the
true issue, and also the taboosof the culture for
whistleblowing, taboos of theculture for speaking up about
gender specific and issuesrelated to girls' bodies and
(13:44):
boys' bodies.
There's a lot more subtlethings that a DSL has to look
out for to do their job wellhere.
And there's an additional oneas well when we look at the DEI,
if we look at internationalschools, there is a real gap in
how we are safeguarding childrenof colour.
That's because, unfortunately,there is a lack of culture
nuance guarding children ofcolor.
(14:05):
That's because, unfortunately,there is a lack of culture
nuance, that understanding ofculture and of how children of
color necessarily that thesafeguarding isn't seen.
You may not see a physicalsymptoms of, you know, physical
abuse.
They may be different somecases in some family and
cultural circumstances.
Safeguard, the lack ofsafeguarding, is normalized In
(14:26):
some cultures, some cultures.
So I think one of theinteresting things of working
within the UAE Not intentionally, it's because of a lack of
knowledge.
So you know one of the thingsthat I have found increasingly
when I've been working in theUAE and I've been doing lots of
work in government schools,which is another whole case in
itself and a lot of the timewhen you're talking to parents.
So it is a lack ofunderstanding because we parent
(14:49):
based on how we were parenting,unless somebody tells us
different.
So I could be an analogy.
I'm a 70s child from Indianheritage Shocking, and I talk
about running away from thatIndian leather slipper.
Either or Either, or we laugh.
We laugh.
That was our experience beingparented.
(15:09):
But as a parent, I've nevertouched my child.
But if they, I've not evensmacked my children because by
the time I was a parent I hadbeen educated that there are
other, far more positive ways ofinstilling boundaries and
discipline.
So if we look at some of thefamilies that we work with, they
haven't had that opportunity tolearn other ways.
Is that something that you arefocusing on?
(15:30):
Yes, it is.
So I'm launched.
I have launched two parentprograms and ones for parents
who've got under fives to lookat how do we connect with our
children emotional regulation,sleep pattern, picky eating,
temper tantrums so that's one ofthe things.
And the second one, which isaimed more at schools, is for
parents of kind of 3 to18-year-olds in school setting,
(15:51):
looking at brain development andadolescent risk-taking,
behaviour and disciplinestrategies, all of those kind of
things that parents.
Because over here one of thethings about expats is that
we're not living in our homeenvironment, so we haven't got
that natural support system thatwe would have, so it can feel
quite lonely at times.
People have friends.
You feel isolated from a widerculture.
(16:12):
That includes those where youknow you can reach out to the go
to your gp and they can referyou to a community center.
With here, the awareness ofwhere to go might not be as
clear.
The pathways are not as clear,true, but there's another stuff
into it.
If you think about when, when,when you're living at home with
your supports, people that haveno news that you're a tiny,
(16:34):
there's, that you don't fearthat judgment of okay, I'm
really struggling with my son,daughter, they're doing this,
that and the other.
You would go to your mum oryourie or your best mate down
the road because you don't wantthem to know that you've got a
relationship, exactly becauseyou're not going to feel judged,
whereas here we may havefriends, but it's not the same
level of friendship.
So are you going to talk to theperson that you go out?
(16:57):
It's the transient and that's areal gap that I think is
missing, which is why, now, I'velaunched these parent programs,
because it's for people to cometogether as a community.
That's what we're trying to do.
The legacy we're trying tobuild is building a community
where people can come to ourparenting sessions.
It's a six-week course andthrough that six weeks.
They're gonna.
They're gonna meet other peopleand they're going to build more
(17:19):
supportive network around.
There are a lot of parents whomaybe feel that if they speak up
about the fact that they don'tknow that they are a bad parent
and providing opportunities,where there is an opportunity to
pretend something, if thecommitment's there without the
blame which I think is importantfor parents to feel that
(17:42):
they're heard by the opportunitybeing available for them to
come, and it's thatnon-judgmental what we're trying
to feel, that they're heard bythe opportunity being available
for them to come, and it's thatnon-judgmental what we're trying
to do is we're trying tosupport you as a parent.
We all struggle at times withour children.
It's parenting's not easy, youdon't.
It's not like you get a carmanual with it and you just get
on with it.
Each child is different youreldest child, your middle child
to youngest child.
I think also, having the factthat there's a session, it
(18:04):
subliminally tells parents thatyou're not the only one, not the
only one, not the only one,which is a really important
thing, absolutely.
I would like for us to talkabout and I interrupted you you
were about to tell me about howdo you make sure safeguarding is
less checklist-y?
Yeah, so I talk about theculture of care in a school and
(18:25):
I talk about how do we keepsafeguarding the agenda,
reminding people in morningmeetings curriculum that we have
in the school, making sure thatchildren know who they can go
and talk to as child protectionteam, as the DSL, when I used to
work in schools, a lot of thetime my office would be situated
in, say, the secondary school.
(18:46):
So what I would do is I wouldmake very conscious effort of
going over to the primary schooland spending time in the
primary school, going andreading this really good
safeguarding books that you canuse.
Storybook safeguarding drivendo story times.
I at one point I was coachingthe under nine netball netball
team, which was that was totallystepping outside of my country.
(19:06):
So and but I could do acoaching for under nines.
But you know, when you've gotgirls doing cartwheels and
you're like no, no, it's not gymclasses.
But why did I do it?
I did it because it was aboutbuilding relationships with
children, so that if there wasan issue with a nine-year-old
and I had to go in and talk tothem about it, I was at some
strange adult who doesn't reallywork.
(19:26):
In my part of the school it wasarts, prayer and and what was
really lovely.
And that's one more opportunityfor them to think of you as
that one adult that they cantrust.
Yes, and that's what it's aboutand I keep saying this every
time I'm working with adults anddelivering training the most
important thing is relationshipbuilding.
If you've got a relationship soif you're a form, um, I say in
(19:49):
secondary school, you've gotyour form tutor time every
morning, you'll see that childevery single day at the same
time every morning you were ifyou've got that relationship
with a child, you will noticethe subtle changes in them.
You, hopefully, are thattrusted person.
So you know, oh, you lookreally tired this morning, late
night, last night.
They may not say anything toyou but they may Because they're
(20:11):
like, oh, you noticed, theyfeel seen, they feel heard
Someone's noticing Exactly.
It makes all the difference.
Makes all the difference.
I must say my own experience ofbeing someone who was given a
little bit of care from thesafeguarding team when I was
younger, it did make a hugedifference in my what we would
(20:35):
say my approach to so I wasquite academic, yeah, but it
could have crashed me.
It could have made me justcompletely withdraw what I was
facing and that support withthat trusted adult made all the
difference for me to know that,no matter what's going on, I can
(20:55):
say something to that person.
So I think people educatorsoften underestimate how
important it is for young peopleto see them.
Yeah, absolutely, anyone who'swatched that really appears and
everyone, every child needs achampion.
Every time I watch it I'm likebang on, she's absolutely right.
(21:15):
Child needs and you know,luckily, the majority of
children have mom and dad astheir champion.
There are those children thatcome into school and school is
maybe the only place that theyfeel safe and having that member
of staff that they can go toand talk about whatever is so
important, because it may bethat they want to come and talk
to you about.
I don't know, the hamster's notvery happy today, but before
(21:37):
you know it, that hamster storyhas turned into something a bit
more significant in terms of asafe part of a well-being issue.
So spending that time withchildren there are subtle signs
that can be missed.
Yes, and I think that level ofcare that you talk about, that
culture of care, if it'schecklisting rather than really
(21:59):
focused on the needs of children, empathetic and caring an
individual.
Things are missed and thingswill be missed, even with the
best, absolutely best possiblesafeguarding practices there
will always be.
For us to think that we arefully robust in that space of
(22:20):
confidence that we do everything, I think can be a trap for
leaders that, oh, oursafeguarding is brilliant, we've
got it in place andeverything's in place.
I think sometimes that can leadto a degree not of complacency,
but this false sense ofsecurity that you have done
everything, although, no, itgives a sense of it wouldn't
(22:41):
happen here, but it does happenhere, it happens everywhere.
Think the unthinkable, becauseit does.
It may be a teacher in a schoolthat is harming a child, oh,
but that wouldn't happen here.
Yeah, it does happen, it doeshappen.
That's why we have low-levelconcern policies, why we have
allegations against staffpolicies, why we have code of
conduct, because it could happenhere or that whole, oh, but
(23:03):
they're a really lovely pair,they can do that.
But I think there's also the thefact of reputation management,
that if we do something about it, it means it exists, yeah, so
if it exists, that lowers thetone of the place.
Yes, and we are.
Maybe we are outstanding or weare very good or we are whatever
we are and anything thatreflects that we are not.
(23:25):
That lowers the tone of theplace and I think we need to
separate performance ratings andsafeguarding.
Safeguarding is either we'remeeting the needs of all
children for that or we're notand we need to do that better
and you could flip it.
So, if I flip it in terms ofbranding, if I, as a parent,
(23:45):
thinking of school A, if I knowthat actually they've got this
well-being really good,well-being really good,
safeguarding their policies andprocedures that are in place,
and that if I know if the childis being hurt, that actually x,
y and z happens in that school,surely I'm going to be more
likely to send my child to thatschool because it means, if god
forbid, something's happening tomy child, actually the school's
(24:07):
really proactive.
Yeah, they're not going tosweep it under the carpet and my
child isn't going to continueto be hurt.
So it's about reframing.
Yeah, I think that reframing isa really important word, that
when you reframe a malpracticeto being on the steps, to being
best practice, rather thaneither you're great or you're
awful, yeah, that that stopspeople feeling that it's
(24:29):
personal to them and then theyfeel that, okay, I am gonna try,
I'm gonna do this better,rather than I'm either good or
bad and safeguardingsafeguarding can never be like,
oh, we're done, yeah, we're atthe top level because things
keep changing.
So ai, for instance, ai eventhree years ago wasn't a
safeguarding machine the way itis now.
(24:50):
I read the story recently aboutthe boy who was speaking to ai
at all and it talked him intoself-harm and it's a powerful
video that I saw, I showedduring when I deliver
safeguarding.
It's a very powerful video andit's made out of this real case
scenarios and you watch it andyou just go, whoa, okay, because
(25:11):
it.
Ai is amazing for so manydifferent reasons, but it's also
got a very dark side to it.
Who's writing the programs?
What for are they writing it?
So people get addicted to thesetechnologies.
Is there a there?
There are so many unscrupulousreasons why someone would want
children to be hooked on theirtechnology to make them
(25:32):
customers for life, for example,and reframe their thinking
about products and services formarketing reasons.
So, as you said, it's neverconstant.
Everything has.
Every innovation has asafeguarding implication and if
we sit back and think, we've gotit covered, I think because
safeguarding should be at thetop of every gender-based
(25:53):
meeting and that we need to behaving a dialogue about it with
every level of leader andeducator and wider providers.
We talked about off-camera thatthere are some blind spots
within the school communitywhere we're worried about
safeguarding of the teachers andwe take steps for that.
We take steps for, maybe, lunchsupervisors.
(26:14):
Maybe we don't.
Do we take precautions andprovide training to ECA
providers?
Do we look at providing aprovision of safeguarding
training and an alignment ofpractice and language as well?
Because every adult or peerthat the child will meet, yes,
and it doesn't take too manyquestions, as in the evaluative
work, we do two or threequestions of a little bit of a
(26:38):
dive in and sometimes we getblank looks of we didn't think
of that yet.
Yeah, and that can be cause forconcern.
Absolutely, for regulators andevaluators to come in.
So I think you would say thesame.
Right, I would say the same andI'm smiling because I think as
an inspector, you may do a strawpoll of the member of staff, oh
(27:00):
, who should do this out, andyou would hope that they would
know that.
But I think about when I go inand I do training and I talk
about that very first exercise Ido is around values and beliefs
, because within ourinternational schools we have
people from all over the worldwho have very different values
and beliefs around safeguarding.
And also definitions, where wesay protection, where we say
(27:23):
care, depending on who's thoughtof it.
Even amongst people who speakthe same language and from the
same place, they might bedefined differently by person.
So having a school definitionor a regulator definition that's
embedded, it starts there.
It does everyone.
Like you're right, everyone hasto have that common
(27:43):
understanding.
So if I come from, maybe myvalues and beliefs are that, oh,
it's okay to smack a child, hita child.
If a child says to me they werehit last night, am I going to
see it as safe cards, because myvalues and beliefs may be that
aren't, so it's okay for them.
Yeah, I survived.
Yeah, yeah, I survived it.
Why are they making fast?
(28:04):
But actually you're in the uae,you're a mandated reporter.
This is the expectation of fromgovernment legislation the
whole way through.
This is how it's going to be.
I've also seen, when I've beenout to schools in the over the
years, sometimes what's seen asplayful camaraderie or banter
culturally, and I've seen thissometimes in sports teams and
(28:27):
stuff like that, where there'sthis sort of touching and
tapping and I've seen childrenlook quite uncomfortable with it
, but they think that they haveto go along with it, else
they're not part of the in-groupof the team.
And then, because the teachersor the instructors don't have
the training to see that thechild's uncomfortable, they
(28:48):
almost want the child to conformto that norm, instead of
changing the norm of everyoneelse to ensure that everyone is
comfortable with banter andplayful touching or oh, how are
you doing?
Kind of thing, and that theyjust look visibly uncomfortable,
sensitive.
Yeah, you're making a farce.
Yeah, yes, and that I thinkalso happens within school
(29:10):
environments where maybe forstaff the staff while we're
using at the kind of peak levelthat it should be at, and where
maybe there are staff who feelthat they haven't got a voice
when they are not being treatedor included and don't feel like
they belong, or there are maybebanter in the staff room or
people make comments and likeyou're being too touchy.
(29:33):
You're being too touchy, you'refar too sensitive, but it
didn't really mean that.
And oh, that's just the waymanagement are, you just have to
get used to it, or there's aconversation of do you think I
should report it?
How many times are you going toreport it?
You're going to be reportingall day long because nothing
ever changes.
Yeah, yes.
So it's really difficult, Ithink, to go through these moral
dilemmas all day long and Ithink, starting with the culture
(29:56):
of your organization, to say,no, we do care.
Our aim is to know about thesethings.
I think the workload aspect iswhat puts people off as humans.
There's that workload.
If I report it, fill in theform, I fill in the form, I've
got to write the email.
If I've got to write the email,then there'll be a reply and
then I might have to go andthat's cutting from my time.
(30:17):
So I think that whole humanexperience of work can prevent
you Not to say you don't careabout safeguarding.
You do, but that voice of thatcolleague who told you in the
staff room that nothing's goingto change prevents you from
doing it.
But also, safeguarding is.
More often we think aboutsafeguarding in terms of child
protection.
Safeguarding it's about theproactive, it's about what we do
(30:39):
within a school.
So it's also about thesafeguarding of the adults that
are working in a school andmaking sure that our teachers,
our cleaners, our securityguards, every single adult in
that school, feels safe.
I think it starts withpsychological safety, absolutely
for anything else.
So when we're talking about issafeguarding a tick box exercise
(30:59):
?
It can't be tick box exercisebecause if your staff don't feel
safe, psychologically safe, arethey going to spot the child?
Don't feel safe,psychologically safe, are they
going to spot a child wherethere's a second concern
probably not now, becausethey've got their own, or
significantly less likely to.
Yeah, and even if they did spotit, what's the odds of them
being proactive on it when theythemselves feel that their job's
(31:21):
on the line if they do saysomething, or that, if I say
something, I might be ridiculedby someone who finds out that
and that's a mechanism to makeme not report it.
I might be frozen out of thegroup.
But oh, she's a troublemaker.
Yeah, yeah, just because it'sher, we have to now attend
training.
Yeah, there's a little bit,that's true.
(31:42):
Um, it's true.
Yeah, I'd like to move on to.
We've talked about problems,challenges, talked about what
doesn't go right.
I'd like you to share a momentin your in, in your practice.
Something about safeguardinghas made you really proud to
help inspire those who who mayneed to be inspired to do the
(32:05):
right thing.
Yeah, and I think it's about.
For me, what's made me proud isworking in schools, where
people having thoseconversations, those
professional conversations, andchanging the way that we do
things in a school that's whatmakes me proud, because that's
(32:25):
about the learning journey thatwe're all on, and one of the
things I learned personally veryearly on as a DSL was you know,
I would come in and I'd go outand there's a bit of an ego
thing going on.
Well, I'm the social worker, I'mthe one with countless years of
child protection experience.
Therefore, I know everythingand realizing that actually
safeguarding and childprotection within a school is
working within that team andrealizing that sort of I don't
(32:46):
have to have the challengingconversation with the parent.
I can get their teacher to doit, because actually the message
is going to be received betterin terms of a personal pride,
being able to reflect and go.
Well, this isn't about me, it'sabout the child.
So that's a personal but from aprofessional point of view,
bringing those colleaguestogether and looking at how do
we work as a team around a child.
(33:07):
So implementing what we have inthe uk in terms of working
together framework and bringingit into a school and looking at
okay, actually, you've got anurse in a school, you've got
your counselor, you've got yourteacherssellor, you've got your
teachers there are so manyactually different professions
within a school and specialisms,exactly, let's bring them
together and let's look at howwe do safeguarding so that it is
everyone's responsibility,everyone's responsibility.
(33:30):
But what does that actuallymean?
What does that look like inyour daily life, in your school
and that's been one of myproudest moments is looking at
how schools that I've eitherworked in or I'm going in and
supporting and helping now, howthey're safe to develop.
I think it's that concept ofthreads coming together to make
that fabric oh, yes, like atapestry, obviously guarding and
(33:52):
it's not one thread to make atapestry All those practitioners
coming together to make anykind of fabric that is durable,
safe for use.
Lastly, which aspects of aschool's culture would you most
want to persist beyond yourtenure?
So you've worked in childprotection, safeguarding and
(34:16):
social work and supporting that.
Whenever you are in those roles, what do you want to remain in
the school that you've worked?
Positive relationships, like wewere saying earlier.
That is the key to all of that.
Safeguarding well-being,academic achievement, you know
(34:37):
what I'd like to say.
So helping staff within schoolagain, it doesn't matter what
member of staff you are, buthelping them to have those
skills of active listening,forming positive relationships
with children, would you say,because it's.
I've heard this word.
I've had relationships come upa lot.
Now when I hear something comeup a lot, it Now when I hear
(34:58):
something come up a lot, itmakes me think.
Is it not happening correctly?
Is it not happening that peoplekeep repeating the word, so,
like when you just said activelistening, are we saying that
we're not listening better orwe're not listening enough?
Is that what we're saying?
I think sometimes we listen,but we listen to solve the
(35:19):
problem, as opposed to let'slisten to what the child's
telling us, or we're listeningselectively, based on our
experience of work or based onI've only got five minutes and I
don't really want the child totell me something that's going
to make me have to go away anddo CPOMS referral and then a
follow-up with the GSL and addand Okay.
So you mean slow down, stop,breathe, breathe.
(35:45):
Focus on empathetically andcarefully listening and noticing
what the child needs and whatthey are saying and what they
may also be saying and we'renoting down facts, but we're
also sharing insight of what wefeel might be the case, and it
may not be a safeguardingdisclosure.
(36:05):
It may be that at that momentin time, the child's just, for
whatever reason, they're not,they're not happy, for whatever
reason.
Maybe it doesn't need to be asin.
Yeah, it might beinconsequential.
What they're telling you justbe their experience of life and
something, maybe silly, yeah,and relate it to something
they've read like from a book orthey've heard overheard from
(36:27):
someone else and they just wantsome attention.
Could be that, yeah, even thatattention is part of positive
relationships, and so I alwayslike so.
When I used to work with parents, one of the bits of advice I
give them is about communicationand relationship building with
your child.
But you know, when you've gotyour little ones in primary
school, you have a little oneand you know, and then pick them
up from school and you'retrying to get dinner on and
(36:48):
you're trying to do all of thosethings you need to do of an
evening and they want to talk toyou about something that is
inconsequential for you in yourbig life but for them,
whatever's happened during thatday is huge for them and
actually, if you spend that timejust giving them that bit of
that time of yours, they talkabout it.
What you're doing is givingthem a message that you will
listen.
Fast forward that 10 years whenthey're a teenager and you
(37:11):
really want to know what's goingon in their lives and they're
shutting down because they're ateenager.
Yeah, and they tried before.
They tried before.
It didn't work.
Either you were looking at aphone or they were busy, or you
were busy providing the finances.
Whatever it is, the school orwhatever it is.
But if you, from the time thatyou know you've got them little,
if you're having thatcommunication with them, it's
(37:32):
around the things that aren'timportant to you but are very
important to them.
When they really do need totalk to you about something that
is important, they will.
Yeah, the channel is reinforced, it's open.
It's been open all of theirchildhood, so it will remain
open.
And it's the same theory whenwe look at staff in the school.
If you are able to just talk tothe child about something that
(37:55):
isn't sinister, it's notsafeguarding, it's not
well-being, it's just they wantto tell you what I don't know
about.
Yesterday they saw stray catsin in the street and they fed it
.
Whatever, it doesn't matter.
But if you spend the time andyou allow that child to be heard
and valued when that child'sgot an issue, you're going to be
maybe one of those trustedpeople.
(38:16):
So that's why I talk aboutactive listening, about forming
a relationship with a child,relationships.
A relationship means lots ofdifferent things to lots of
different people, but thosepositive relationships where
you're trusted and you're seenas somebody who will listen,
that's how we're going to havethat safeguarding culture and
that culture of care in school.
For me.
I actually, when someone saysrelationship to me, I actually
(38:39):
think of an actual ship beingcreated, so like constructing a
ship.
So when we first meet, it's aplank of wood yes, that won't
survive the sea.
And then the next time we meetwe're adding it becomes like a
makeshift raft.
And then the next time we meet,it becomes like a little tiny
(39:01):
boat, it's true, but it can sortof float.
Maybe we'd survive in it, maybenot.
Maybe the relationship wouldsurvive if we stood in it or not
.
And the more we interact itreinforces that actual ship.
So true, and then it cansurvive a storm.
So when there is an issue, yeah, it can not only float, yeah,
(39:23):
but we'll communicate to surviveand thrive in that ship.
So when people use words likerelation and ship, what have you
done to create the ship?
Because if we love this, if wehaven't interacted enough, I
don't know.
There's no planks.
So, true, just a plank.
It's just two names.
It's wayward.
Your two names that will cometogether.
(39:45):
And, yes, if I think about mypersonal relationships and our
professional relationships,absolutely you bang on.
It's about the interactions andthose interactions is where you
find the alignment and thetrustfulness we had.
Professor rob co earliertalking about trust is not just
a word.
There's dimensions to us andsimilarly, when we build
(40:05):
anything, there's dimensions towhen we build something.
And if we just think that justsaying hello and get on with
your work is a relationship,it's not.
Or we're saying how's it goingand then we quickly move on.
That's not a relationship.
And I think the crunchiest time,because everyone who's watching
is thinking, oh, that's allwell and good, but I've got, I
(40:28):
only have two ppa.
There's ppa periods across myweek.
If I give every child thatpersonal touch or first class
service, I will not be able toplan my lessons.
So I think having some sort ofsystem where it's distributed
across numerous members of staff, you don't feel the weight of
(40:49):
the world.
And it goes back to your pointabout specialists, everybody's
responsibility and having asystem for well-being and a
system for students and childrenunderstanding who they can go
to, but also everyone caring andwhen that happens across the
day.
And we think about the touchpoints where every child is the
(41:10):
main character of their storyand this video.
If I started my day and I'mwalking into school right camera
, point of view camera.
We walk into school, how manytimes do I feel cared for
throughout the day?
And if it's too few, then wouldwe say safeguarding in that
school is robust, would we.
And if we are seeing a threadwe said of this practitioner
(41:34):
asking me about am I okay, thenanother one.
I might start asking myself ifI'm okay and be able to
potentially self-regulate ormuster the courage to speak up
about the problem, because I'vehad three people Maybe I'm too
shy, but the second, third andfourth across that I then think,
okay, the next person who asksme, I'm actually going to tell
(41:57):
them and I think that's the partthat we're talking about that
might be missing to ensure thatsafeguarding is focused on each
child because they are the maincharacter of their own child in
the center of the child that wedo.
Yeah, thank you so much.
Really enjoyed the conversation.
We've gone on a little bitlonger than I.
Hi Priya, hi Priya, how are you today?
I'm doing great.
We're at the Middle East SchoolLeadership Conference on day
two.
We are indeed, and the theme ofthe conference is Building a
Leadership Legacy, leadingForward.
Yes, I would love to understandfrom you what that conference
theme of leadership legacy,building it and then leading
(00:21):
forward.
What does that mean to you assomeone who is known, renowned
for safeguarding and leading?
Safeguarding, yeah, it's.
It's interesting thinking aboutit and how it aligns with where
my career path has gone overthe last year or so.
So I should be working inschools in the middle east as a
dsl and counselor and as part ofthat, I created counselling
(00:44):
groups.
I created designatedsafeguarding league groups and
the legacy from that is that,even though I left Abu Dhabi
2021, those groups are stillgoing, which is wonderful to see
because, listening to Fionaearlier on about legacies, it's
about what you're building andthat it's when you're no longer
there that there's stillsomething there that has been
(01:04):
started.
So it's amazing to see thosetwo groups are still going.
And when I came back to theMiddle East, one of the things I
really wanted to do is say,okay, I can work in a school and
I can look after the wellbeingneeds, safeguarding needs of,
say, 1,900, 2,000 students.
But I want to do more than that.
I want to be able to go out andempower as many adults as
(01:26):
possible, to upskill them aroundwellbeing, around safeguarding,
so that what I'm able to do isbuild that legacy of
safeguarding across the UA.
So it's not about, okay, I wasin one particular school and
that's the legacy that has beenleft behind because I was there
as a DSL.
It's about what can I do toupskill as many adults as
(01:48):
possible so that we're allcreating a legacy safeguarding.
What I'm hearing from you isthat if the landscape is a safe
and safe and genuinely caring,yeah, and protected landscape,
yeah, and all the schools are onthat landscape.
Rather than a land view, youtook a more aerial view.
It's exactly what you're tryingto do with safeguarding.
(02:10):
Yes, I just want to go back tothe point you made about the
groups you created.
It might be that there'ssomebody who's watching or
listening, who wants to knowwhat made you start those groups
and how did you?
How, because there's a legacythere how did those groups?
Firstly, what was the point ofthe groups?
And then, how did you create asystem that made those groups
(02:34):
last.
Okay, so when I arrived in 2013, there were counsellors
beginning to be employed inschools, but it felt very much
like you were on your own and Iwas like, why are we doing this
on our own?
Surely we should be working asa group and looking at
challenges that that studentsare facing in schools together.
(02:57):
And that's where it started.
So I spoke to a counsellor atanother school and I was like,
why don't we do this?
Yeah, why don't we?
12 round a table, and it's now70, maybe plus counselors,
specialist professional learning, community and creating a
network.
When you had your first meeting,was it awkward or how was it
(03:19):
gosh?
I'm really having to think backnow with that memory was Was
there hurdles to be overcome,overstepped, trust-wise?
No, I think there was this needfor people wanting that sense
of belonging which, again, whenwe talk about safeguarding that
sense of belonging of, oh, we'reall doing this, we're all in
our silos, what can we dotogether to build on each
(03:42):
other's and share good practice?
There was an appetite for oneperson thinking in their school
I can't be the only one thatthis is important to and the
other person coming together sowhen those that it was organic,
almost start talking aboutabsolutely pressing issues,
absolutely.
And then the same thinghappened with the safeguarding,
because when I came, redeemer'slaw wasn't a thing and happened
(04:03):
whening.
It was a bit of a hit and miss,which I think in some ways it
still is, depending on whatschool you're in.
So again it was out of.
So ADEC had provided thistraining for a child protection
lead per school and there was agroup of us I still remember.
So it was a group of us and itwas like the naughty table in
the classroom where we were allsat there and we were all very
(04:25):
established safeguarding people.
The majority of people aroundthat table were teachers in like
senior leadership positions,and I was a social worker from
the UK, as I said, working as aDSL and counsellor, and at the
end of it we we got on reallywell, but it was.
It's a really lovely memoryactually of something that I did
very early on, of being in theUAE, and at the end of it I was
(04:46):
like why don't we have?
We need a group, we need to besharing good practice, and
that's where the seed wasplanted.
Do you think that's done enoughin the UAE or could it be done
better, what seeds being plantedor groups, both that people
have take the initiative to takea risk, because reaching out to
(05:07):
another practitioner fromanother school sometimes, and
especially in 2013 I was alsohere in the uae at that time it
was sometimes treacherousbecause there is a bit of a
competition between schools, soit's do.
Are we exposing our practicesor exposing incidents to our
(05:27):
competitors?
Would that be used against usor something?
There's like a whole mindset.
Absolutely, and I think whatworked in my favor is my head
head teacher at that time at theschool I was working in really
got past all in and safeguardingand he said competition needs
to be on the sports field, notwhen we're talking about student
wellbeing, student safeguardingand he 100% backed me.
(05:50):
I said go on, go and do this.
I think it's integrity that itneeds to underpin before we
think about the business side ofschools, for safeguarding and
wellbeing, business should notbe involved.
We should not be talking aboutmoney around.
Safeguarding, like Emily wassaying earlier on, it is a
culture.
It's more than a tick box.
(06:10):
It's more than compliance.
We need to have that culture ofcare in every school so that
children feel safe.
Children feel safe If they feelthat they've got someone they
can talk to.
The teaching and learning isalways going to be better.
The achievement of that childis going to be better.
The achievement of that childis going to be better.
It underpins everything thathappens in a school.
We have to have safeguarding atthe highest possible level that
(06:32):
it can be so bringing peopletogether.
They've got that same kind ofmindset who want to.
So people out there who maybewant to be part of these groups,
they need to get involved inthese groups because
safeguarding is it's.
It's highly emotive, it's.
If you're, if you'resafeguarding lead, you can be
left feeling really drained andalso confidentiality aspect of
(06:52):
it means that you're sometimescarrying heavy burdens of
sometimes tricky, disturbing,confusing situations and
sometimes you're not able totalk to everybody about it and
it can weigh heavy absolutely.
And one of the things thatwe've been trying to push,
especially like with bsme, isthat reflective supervision
piece for dsls so that they havethat monthly space to
(07:15):
themselves schools I thinkschool leadership haven't quite
got on board with why that'simportant.
So having these kind of peergroups at least provide some
form of support in terms ofsharing good practice and I'm
like we're having these problemsin our school, what's happening
in your school and sharing thatthat works for us.
Have you tried that?
So it's at least DSLs aregetting some kind of input and
(07:36):
support within that role andagain, that's the legacy that
we're building.
Can I ask you a bit of acontroversial question?
Oh, please, do we likecontroversy?
We do, when we are working fora private school, yeah, when
we're working with entities thatmaybe have we're one branch out
of numerous schools that existin lots of different countries,
(07:59):
sometimes the school's group hasa centralized safeguarding
policy which is based on acertain country or their own
understanding of it.
Yeah, and then there are theregulators in each country.
That's their own set andthere's a lot of work that needs
to be done to align maybe acompany or organizational
safeguarding practice to oneschool.
(08:21):
And often, if there's more thanone school within a group in
one country, sometimes eventhose are not aligned in
practice.
Yeah, how much do you thinkthere's enough energy and
intention and effort and moneyput into making sure
safeguarding is on top of everyagenda?
(08:42):
I think that a lot of what isdone is a tick box exercise.
So schools will have a policy.
It's written fine, but is it alived policy.
I also think that often I hearthe this is what the regulator
wants us to do and I'm like butis it child-centred?
Is this child-centred?
(09:03):
At the end of the day, whenwe're doing safeguarding, the
child needs to remain at themiddle of all of the decisions
that are being made.
It's not about a regulator.
It's not about the branding ofthe school.
It's not about oh, what willour parents say.
It's about what is best forthat particular child, which is
why it can't be black or whitesafeguarding.
There's no black or white.
Sometimes it's very grey andyou have to find a path through
(09:25):
it.
That is the best way forward,which is why you need dsls
who've got integrity, who've gota voice, who are going to be a
bit of a pain, who are going tochallenge.
So all of those people.
Actually, that's the point Iwas trying to press on that
sometimes your dsls are notgoing to say things to you as a
leader who has got a wide lensview of the whole organization,
(09:48):
of the bottom line pressure, ofthe teaching, parent engagement.
We've got professionaldevelopment I was talking to of
the importance of impact andoutcomes.
But the umbrella over all ofthat is safeguarding in the
legislation requirements of thechildren in our care, which is
bigger than all of that, yes.
So, yes, your safeguardingleave might be a pain, but they
(10:10):
are a pain because it's theumbrella over everything.
How much heat have you seensafeguarding leaves get globally
, nationally?
So we come back to who shouldbe in a DSL role.
Okay, and it's very clear, theUK guidance, the DAA in Abu
(10:30):
Dhabi you know the statutoryguidance around there is that
the lead, whether it's a DSL,cpc, whatever we want to call
them, should never be theprincipal.
Why?
Because of that reason, thereshould always be somebody who
can challenge the person at thetop of the tree in that
particular school.
If they aren't doing their job,somebody needs to be able to
challenge them.
When that sounds some way, youcould get crushed.
(10:51):
Oh, rock and a hard, absolutely, as you're standing for the
highest standards of safety,aligned to the regulator
requirements.
And then you've got, maybe, aprincipal who's saying come back
next week because I can't meetabout that.
I'm dealing with a visitor, oractually.
No, this is what I need to doand no, this is the way it's
(11:11):
going to do.
I'm principal also like feelinglike you've been overridden,
even though you're standing forthe expectations.
Yeah, and it's a hard one.
The controversy around that isit's a hard one because people
that are DSLs we're all out hereon a is.
It's a hard one because peoplethat are DSLs we're all out
there on a contract.
It's sometimes a difficultposition where they feel that
safeguarding is maybe not whereit needs to be and you're
(11:32):
challenging, say, the principalIs it worth your job?
Is it worth your job?
And I was saying, ultimately,as a DSL, you are the advocate
for the most vulnerable child inthe school.
So if you're not going to useyour voice as that advocate to
ensure that the safeguardingpractice is as it should be, and
you aren't making sure thatthat child is being safeguarded,
(11:55):
then what is the point of youbeing in that role Off camera we
were talking about, if it's notgood for my child?
Yes, and can you dictate thatstory of what happened and what
you did and what you did next?
Could you dictate that to ajudge and feel proud of the
actions you took?
And could you say, 20 yearsdown the line, if you met that
(12:19):
child and they narrate theirexperience of school and said I
was terribly bullied, thishappened and you were the person
who could have done somethingabout it, could you face that
person with the actions you took?
And maybe that's the base as towhy I work as I do when I do
child protection in schools,because ultimately I come at it
(12:41):
from a social work background.
I did child protection inLondon for 11 years, frontline.
I had those very challengingconversations with parents.
I had those.
The things I have seen andwitnessed are things we don't
want to see and witness.
We both also touched on the factthat we've worked at some of
the challenging, the mostchallenging boroughs and the
(13:02):
most challenging anddisadvantaged situations.
That being said, just like yourpoint, affluent neglect and
some of the issues that comewith, yes, the difference
between, say, the UK and thechallenges in certain areas
there, but also the challengesof working in the Middle East,
where affluence doesn'tnecessarily equate to safe it's
(13:24):
safe, it's not knife crime typeof issues, and the issues that
arise are sometimes more subtleand nuanced for you to find the
true issue, and also the taboosof the culture for
whistleblowing, taboos of theculture for speaking up about
gender specific and issuesrelated to girls' bodies and
(13:44):
boys' bodies.
There's a lot more subtlethings that a DSL has to look
out for to do their job wellhere.
And there's an additional oneas well when we look at the DEI,
if we look at internationalschools, there is a real gap in
how we are safeguarding childrenof colour.
That's because, unfortunately,there is a lack of culture
nuance guarding children ofcolor.
(14:05):
That's because, unfortunately,there is a lack of culture
nuance, that understanding ofculture and of how children of
color necessarily that thesafeguarding isn't seen.
You may not see a physicalsymptoms of, you know, physical
abuse.
They may be different somecases in some family and
cultural circumstances.
Safeguard, the lack ofsafeguarding, is normalized In
(14:26):
some cultures, some cultures.
So I think one of theinteresting things of working
within the UAE Not intentionally, it's because of a lack of
knowledge.
So you know one of the thingsthat I have found increasingly
when I've been working in theUAE and I've been doing lots of
work in government schools,which is another whole case in
itself and a lot of the timewhen you're talking to parents.
So it is a lack ofunderstanding because we parent
(14:49):
based on how we were parenting,unless somebody tells us
different.
So I could be an analogy.
I'm a 70s child from Indianheritage Shocking, and I talk
about running away from thatIndian leather slipper.
Either or Either, or we laugh.
We laugh.
That was our experience beingparented.
(15:09):
But as a parent, I've nevertouched my child.
But if they, I've not evensmacked my children because by
the time I was a parent I hadbeen educated that there are
other, far more positive ways ofinstilling boundaries and
discipline.
So if we look at some of thefamilies that we work with, they
haven't had that opportunity tolearn other ways.
Is that something that you arefocusing on?
(15:30):
Yes, it is.
So I'm launched.
I have launched two parentprograms and ones for parents
who've got under fives to lookat how do we connect with our
children emotional regulation,sleep pattern, picky eating,
temper tantrums so that's one ofthe things.
And the second one, which isaimed more at schools, is for
parents of kind of 3 to18-year-olds in school setting,
(15:51):
looking at brain development andadolescent risk-taking,
behaviour and disciplinestrategies, all of those kind of
things that parents.
Because over here one of thethings about expats is that
we're not living in our homeenvironment, so we haven't got
that natural support system thatwe would have, so it can feel
quite lonely at times.
People have friends.
You feel isolated from a widerculture.
(16:12):
That includes those where youknow you can reach out to the go
to your gp and they can referyou to a community center.
With here, the awareness ofwhere to go might not be as
clear.
The pathways are not as clear,true, but there's another stuff
into it.
If you think about when, when,when you're living at home with
your supports, people that haveno news that you're a tiny,
(16:34):
there's, that you don't fearthat judgment of okay, I'm
really struggling with my son,daughter, they're doing this,
that and the other.
You would go to your mum oryourie or your best mate down
the road because you don't wantthem to know that you've got a
relationship, exactly becauseyou're not going to feel judged,
whereas here we may havefriends, but it's not the same
level of friendship.
So are you going to talk to theperson that you go out?
(16:57):
It's the transient and that's areal gap that I think is
missing, which is why, now, I'velaunched these parent programs,
because it's for people to cometogether as a community.
That's what we're trying to do.
The legacy we're trying tobuild is building a community
where people can come to ourparenting sessions.
It's a six-week course andthrough that six weeks.
They're gonna.
They're gonna meet other peopleand they're going to build more
(17:19):
supportive network around.
There are a lot of parents whomaybe feel that if they speak up
about the fact that they don'tknow that they are a bad parent
and providing opportunities,where there is an opportunity to
pretend something, if thecommitment's there without the
blame which I think is importantfor parents to feel that
(17:42):
they're heard by the opportunitybeing available for them to
come, and it's thatnon-judgmental what we're trying
to feel, that they're heard bythe opportunity being available
for them to come, and it's thatnon-judgmental what we're trying
to do is we're trying tosupport you as a parent.
We all struggle at times withour children.
It's parenting's not easy, youdon't.
It's not like you get a carmanual with it and you just get
on with it.
Each child is different youreldest child, your middle child
to youngest child.
I think also, having the factthat there's a session, it
(18:04):
subliminally tells parents thatyou're not the only one, not the
only one, not the only one,which is a really important
thing, absolutely.
I would like for us to talkabout and I interrupted you you
were about to tell me about howdo you make sure safeguarding is
less checklist-y?
Yeah, so I talk about theculture of care in a school and
(18:25):
I talk about how do we keepsafeguarding the agenda,
reminding people in morningmeetings curriculum that we have
in the school, making sure thatchildren know who they can go
and talk to as child protectionteam, as the DSL, when I used to
work in schools, a lot of thetime my office would be situated
in, say, the secondary school.
(18:46):
So what I would do is I wouldmake very conscious effort of
going over to the primary schooland spending time in the
primary school, going andreading this really good
safeguarding books that you canuse.
Storybook safeguarding drivendo story times.
I at one point I was coachingthe under nine netball netball
team, which was that was totallystepping outside of my country.
(19:06):
So and but I could do acoaching for under nines.
But you know, when you've gotgirls doing cartwheels and
you're like no, no, it's not gymclasses.
But why did I do it?
I did it because it was aboutbuilding relationships with
children, so that if there wasan issue with a nine-year-old
and I had to go in and talk tothem about it, I was at some
strange adult who doesn't reallywork.
(19:26):
In my part of the school it wasarts, prayer and and what was
really lovely.
And that's one more opportunityfor them to think of you as
that one adult that they cantrust.
Yes, and that's what it's aboutand I keep saying this every
time I'm working with adults anddelivering training the most
important thing is relationshipbuilding.
If you've got a relationship soif you're a form, um, I say in
(19:49):
secondary school, you've gotyour form tutor time every
morning, you'll see that childevery single day at the same
time every morning you were ifyou've got that relationship
with a child, you will noticethe subtle changes in them.
You, hopefully, are thattrusted person.
So you know, oh, you lookreally tired this morning, late
night, last night.
They may not say anything toyou but they may Because they're
(20:11):
like, oh, you noticed, theyfeel seen, they feel heard
Someone's noticing Exactly.
It makes all the difference.
Makes all the difference.
I must say my own experience ofbeing someone who was given a
little bit of care from thesafeguarding team when I was
younger, it did make a hugedifference in my what we would
(20:35):
say my approach to so I wasquite academic, yeah, but it
could have crashed me.
It could have made me justcompletely withdraw what I was
facing and that support withthat trusted adult made all the
difference for me to know that,no matter what's going on, I can
(20:55):
say something to that person.
So I think people educatorsoften underestimate how
important it is for young peopleto see them.
Yeah, absolutely, anyone who'swatched that really appears and
everyone, every child needs achampion.
Every time I watch it I'm likebang on, she's absolutely right.
(21:15):
Child needs and you know,luckily, the majority of
children have mom and dad astheir champion.
There are those children thatcome into school and school is
maybe the only place that theyfeel safe and having that member
of staff that they can go toand talk about whatever is so
important, because it may bethat they want to come and talk
to you about.
I don't know, the hamster's notvery happy today, but before
(21:37):
you know it, that hamster storyhas turned into something a bit
more significant in terms of asafe part of a well-being issue.
So spending that time withchildren there are subtle signs
that can be missed.
Yes, and I think that level ofcare that you talk about, that
culture of care, if it'schecklisting rather than really
(21:59):
focused on the needs of children, empathetic and caring an
individual.
Things are missed and thingswill be missed, even with the
best, absolutely best possiblesafeguarding practices there
will always be.
For us to think that we arefully robust in that space of
(22:20):
confidence that we do everything, I think can be a trap for
leaders that, oh, oursafeguarding is brilliant, we've
got it in place andeverything's in place.
I think sometimes that can leadto a degree not of complacency,
but this false sense ofsecurity that you have done
everything, although, no, itgives a sense of it wouldn't
(22:41):
happen here, but it does happenhere, it happens everywhere.
Think the unthinkable, becauseit does.
It may be a teacher in a schoolthat is harming a child, oh,
but that wouldn't happen here.
Yeah, it does happen, it doeshappen.
That's why we have low-levelconcern policies, why we have
allegations against staffpolicies, why we have code of
conduct, because it could happenhere or that whole, oh, but
(23:03):
they're a really lovely pair,they can do that.
But I think there's also the thefact of reputation management,
that if we do something about it, it means it exists, yeah, so
if it exists, that lowers thetone of the place.
Yes, and we are.
Maybe we are outstanding or weare very good or we are whatever
we are and anything thatreflects that we are not.
(23:25):
That lowers the tone of theplace and I think we need to
separate performance ratings andsafeguarding.
Safeguarding is either we'remeeting the needs of all
children for that or we're notand we need to do that better
and you could flip it.
So, if I flip it in terms ofbranding, if I, as a parent,
(23:45):
thinking of school A, if I knowthat actually they've got this
well-being really good,well-being really good,
safeguarding their policies andprocedures that are in place,
and that if I know if the childis being hurt, that actually x,
y and z happens in that school,surely I'm going to be more
likely to send my child to thatschool because it means, if god
forbid, something's happening tomy child, actually the school's
(24:07):
really proactive.
Yeah, they're not going tosweep it under the carpet and my
child isn't going to continueto be hurt.
So it's about reframing.
Yeah, I think that reframing isa really important word, that
when you reframe a malpracticeto being on the steps, to being
best practice, rather thaneither you're great or you're
awful, yeah, that that stopspeople feeling that it's
(24:29):
personal to them and then theyfeel that, okay, I am gonna try,
I'm gonna do this better,rather than I'm either good or
bad and safeguardingsafeguarding can never be like,
oh, we're done, yeah, we're atthe top level because things
keep changing.
So ai, for instance, ai eventhree years ago wasn't a
safeguarding machine the way itis now.
(24:50):
I read the story recently aboutthe boy who was speaking to ai
at all and it talked him intoself-harm and it's a powerful
video that I saw, I showedduring when I deliver
safeguarding.
It's a very powerful video andit's made out of this real case
scenarios and you watch it andyou just go, whoa, okay, because
(25:11):
it.
Ai is amazing for so manydifferent reasons, but it's also
got a very dark side to it.
Who's writing the programs?
What for are they writing it?
So people get addicted to thesetechnologies.
Is there a there?
There are so many unscrupulousreasons why someone would want
children to be hooked on theirtechnology to make them
(25:32):
customers for life, for example,and reframe their thinking
about products and services formarketing reasons.
So, as you said, it's neverconstant.
Everything has.
Every innovation has asafeguarding implication and if
we sit back and think, we've gotit covered, I think because
safeguarding should be at thetop of every gender-based
(25:53):
meeting and that we need to behaving a dialogue about it with
every level of leader andeducator and wider providers.
We talked about off-camera thatthere are some blind spots
within the school communitywhere we're worried about
safeguarding of the teachers andwe take steps for that.
We take steps for, maybe, lunchsupervisors.
(26:14):
Maybe we don't.
Do we take precautions andprovide training to ECA
providers?
Do we look at providing aprovision of safeguarding
training and an alignment ofpractice and language as well?
Because every adult or peerthat the child will meet, yes,
and it doesn't take too manyquestions, as in the evaluative
work, we do two or threequestions of a little bit of a
(26:38):
dive in and sometimes we getblank looks of we didn't think
of that yet.
Yeah, and that can be cause forconcern.
Absolutely, for regulators andevaluators to come in.
So I think you would say thesame.
Right, I would say the same andI'm smiling because I think as
an inspector, you may do a strawpoll of the member of staff, oh
(27:00):
, who should do this out, andyou would hope that they would
know that.
But I think about when I go inand I do training and I talk
about that very first exercise Ido is around values and beliefs
, because within ourinternational schools we have
people from all over the worldwho have very different values
and beliefs around safeguarding.
And also definitions, where wesay protection, where we say
(27:23):
care, depending on who's thoughtof it.
Even amongst people who speakthe same language and from the
same place, they might bedefined differently by person.
So having a school definitionor a regulator definition that's
embedded, it starts there.
It does everyone.
Like you're right, everyone hasto have that common
(27:43):
understanding.
So if I come from, maybe myvalues and beliefs are that, oh,
it's okay to smack a child, hita child.
If a child says to me they werehit last night, am I going to
see it as safe cards, because myvalues and beliefs may be that
aren't, so it's okay for them.
Yeah, I survived.
Yeah, yeah, I survived it.
Why are they making fast?
(28:04):
But actually you're in the uae,you're a mandated reporter.
This is the expectation of fromgovernment legislation the
whole way through.
This is how it's going to be.
I've also seen, when I've beenout to schools in the over the
years, sometimes what's seen asplayful camaraderie or banter
culturally, and I've seen thissometimes in sports teams and
(28:27):
stuff like that, where there'sthis sort of touching and
tapping and I've seen childrenlook quite uncomfortable with it
, but they think that they haveto go along with it, else
they're not part of the in-groupof the team.
And then, because the teachersor the instructors don't have
the training to see that thechild's uncomfortable, they
(28:48):
almost want the child to conformto that norm, instead of
changing the norm of everyoneelse to ensure that everyone is
comfortable with banter andplayful touching or oh, how are
you doing?
Kind of thing, and that theyjust look visibly uncomfortable,
sensitive.
Yeah, you're making a farce.
Yeah, yes, and that I thinkalso happens within school
(29:10):
environments where maybe forstaff the staff while we're
using at the kind of peak levelthat it should be at, and where
maybe there are staff who feelthat they haven't got a voice
when they are not being treatedor included and don't feel like
they belong, or there are maybebanter in the staff room or
people make comments and likeyou're being too touchy.
(29:33):
You're being too touchy, you'refar too sensitive, but it
didn't really mean that.
And oh, that's just the waymanagement are, you just have to
get used to it, or there's aconversation of do you think I
should report it?
How many times are you going toreport it?
You're going to be reportingall day long because nothing
ever changes.
Yeah, yes.
So it's really difficult, Ithink, to go through these moral
dilemmas all day long and Ithink, starting with the culture
(29:56):
of your organization, to say,no, we do care.
Our aim is to know about thesethings.
I think the workload aspect iswhat puts people off as humans.
There's that workload.
If I report it, fill in theform, I fill in the form, I've
got to write the email.
If I've got to write the email,then there'll be a reply and
then I might have to go andthat's cutting from my time.
(30:17):
So I think that whole humanexperience of work can prevent
you Not to say you don't careabout safeguarding.
You do, but that voice of thatcolleague who told you in the
staff room that nothing's goingto change prevents you from
doing it.
But also, safeguarding is.
More often we think aboutsafeguarding in terms of child
protection.
Safeguarding it's about theproactive, it's about what we do
(30:39):
within a school.
So it's also about thesafeguarding of the adults that
are working in a school andmaking sure that our teachers,
our cleaners, our securityguards, every single adult in
that school, feels safe.
I think it starts withpsychological safety, absolutely
for anything else.
So when we're talking about issafeguarding a tick box exercise
(30:59):
?
It can't be tick box exercisebecause if your staff don't feel
safe, psychologically safe, arethey going to spot the child?
Don't feel safe,psychologically safe, are they
going to spot a child wherethere's a second concern
probably not now, becausethey've got their own, or
significantly less likely to.
Yeah, and even if they did spotit, what's the odds of them
being proactive on it when theythemselves feel that their job's
(31:21):
on the line if they do saysomething, or that, if I say
something, I might be ridiculedby someone who finds out that
and that's a mechanism to makeme not report it.
I might be frozen out of thegroup.
But oh, she's a troublemaker.
Yeah, yeah, just because it'sher, we have to now attend
training.
Yeah, there's a little bit,that's true.
(31:42):
Um, it's true.
Yeah, I'd like to move on to.
We've talked about problems,challenges, talked about what
doesn't go right.
I'd like you to share a momentin your in, in your practice.
Something about safeguardinghas made you really proud to
help inspire those who who mayneed to be inspired to do the
(32:05):
right thing.
Yeah, and I think it's about.
For me, what's made me proud isworking in schools, where
people having thoseconversations, those
professional conversations, andchanging the way that we do
things in a school that's whatmakes me proud, because that's
(32:25):
about the learning journey thatwe're all on, and one of the
things I learned personally veryearly on as a DSL was you know,
I would come in and I'd go outand there's a bit of an ego
thing going on.
Well, I'm the social worker, I'mthe one with countless years of
child protection experience.
Therefore, I know everythingand realizing that actually
safeguarding and childprotection within a school is
working within that team andrealizing that sort of I don't
(32:46):
have to have the challengingconversation with the parent.
I can get their teacher to doit, because actually the message
is going to be received betterin terms of a personal pride,
being able to reflect and go.
Well, this isn't about me, it'sabout the child.
So that's a personal but from aprofessional point of view,
bringing those colleaguestogether and looking at how do
we work as a team around a child.
(33:07):
So implementing what we have inthe uk in terms of working
together framework and bringingit into a school and looking at
okay, actually, you've got anurse in a school, you've got
your counselor, you've got yourteacherssellor, you've got your
teachers there are so manyactually different professions
within a school and specialisms,exactly, let's bring them
together and let's look at howwe do safeguarding so that it is
everyone's responsibility,everyone's responsibility.
(33:30):
But what does that actuallymean?
What does that look like inyour daily life, in your school
and that's been one of myproudest moments is looking at
how schools that I've eitherworked in or I'm going in and
supporting and helping now, howthey're safe to develop.
I think it's that concept ofthreads coming together to make
that fabric oh, yes, like atapestry, obviously guarding and
(33:52):
it's not one thread to make atapestry All those practitioners
coming together to make anykind of fabric that is durable,
safe for use.
Lastly, which aspects of aschool's culture would you most
want to persist beyond yourtenure?
So you've worked in childprotection, safeguarding and
(34:16):
social work and supporting that.
Whenever you are in those roles, what do you want to remain in
the school that you've worked?
Positive relationships, like wewere saying earlier.
That is the key to all of that.
Safeguarding well-being,academic achievement, you know
(34:37):
what I'd like to say.
So helping staff within schoolagain, it doesn't matter what
member of staff you are, buthelping them to have those
skills of active listening,forming positive relationships
with children, would you say,because it's.
I've heard this word.
I've had relationships come upa lot.
Now when I hear something comeup a lot, it Now when I hear
(34:58):
something come up a lot, itmakes me think.
Is it not happening correctly?
Is it not happening that peoplekeep repeating the word, so,
like when you just said activelistening, are we saying that
we're not listening better orwe're not listening enough?
Is that what we're saying?
I think sometimes we listen,but we listen to solve the
(35:19):
problem, as opposed to let'slisten to what the child's
telling us, or we're listeningselectively, based on our
experience of work or based onI've only got five minutes and I
don't really want the child totell me something that's going
to make me have to go away anddo CPOMS referral and then a
follow-up with the GSL and addand Okay.
So you mean slow down, stop,breathe, breathe.
(35:45):
Focus on empathetically andcarefully listening and noticing
what the child needs and whatthey are saying and what they
may also be saying and we'renoting down facts, but we're
also sharing insight of what wefeel might be the case, and it
may not be a safeguardingdisclosure.
(36:05):
It may be that at that momentin time, the child's just, for
whatever reason, they're not,they're not happy, for whatever
reason.
Maybe it doesn't need to be asin.
Yeah, it might beinconsequential.
What they're telling you justbe their experience of life and
something, maybe silly, yeah,and relate it to something
they've read like from a book orthey've heard overheard from
(36:27):
someone else and they just wantsome attention.
Could be that, yeah, even thatattention is part of positive
relationships, and so I alwayslike so.
When I used to work with parents, one of the bits of advice I
give them is about communicationand relationship building with
your child.
But you know, when you've gotyour little ones in primary
school, you have a little oneand you know, and then pick them
up from school and you'retrying to get dinner on and
(36:48):
you're trying to do all of thosethings you need to do of an
evening and they want to talk toyou about something that is
inconsequential for you in yourbig life but for them,
whatever's happened during thatday is huge for them and
actually, if you spend that timejust giving them that bit of
that time of yours, they talkabout it.
What you're doing is givingthem a message that you will
listen.
Fast forward that 10 years whenthey're a teenager and you
(37:11):
really want to know what's goingon in their lives and they're
shutting down because they're ateenager.
Yeah, and they tried before.
They tried before.
It didn't work.
Either you were looking at aphone or they were busy, or you
were busy providing the finances.
Whatever it is, the school orwhatever it is.
But if you, from the time thatyou know you've got them little,
if you're having thatcommunication with them, it's
(37:32):
around the things that aren'timportant to you but are very
important to them.
When they really do need totalk to you about something that
is important, they will.
Yeah, the channel is reinforced, it's open.
It's been open all of theirchildhood, so it will remain
open.
And it's the same theory whenwe look at staff in the school.
If you are able to just talk tothe child about something that
(37:55):
isn't sinister, it's notsafeguarding, it's not
well-being, it's just they wantto tell you what I don't know
about.
Yesterday they saw stray catsin in the street and they fed it
.
Whatever, it doesn't matter.
But if you spend the time andyou allow that child to be heard
and valued when that child'sgot an issue, you're going to be
maybe one of those trustedpeople.
(38:16):
So that's why I talk aboutactive listening, about forming
a relationship with a child,relationships.
A relationship means lots ofdifferent things to lots of
different people, but thosepositive relationships where
you're trusted and you're seenas somebody who will listen,
that's how we're going to havethat safeguarding culture and
that culture of care in school.
For me.
I actually, when someone saysrelationship to me, I actually
(38:39):
think of an actual ship beingcreated, so like constructing a
ship.
So when we first meet, it's aplank of wood yes, that won't
survive the sea.
And then the next time we meetwe're adding it becomes like a
makeshift raft.
And then the next time we meet,it becomes like a little tiny
(39:01):
boat, it's true, but it can sortof float.
Maybe we'd survive in it, maybenot.
Maybe the relationship wouldsurvive if we stood in it or not
.
And the more we interact itreinforces that actual ship.
So true, and then it cansurvive a storm.
So when there is an issue, yeah, it can not only float, yeah,
(39:23):
but we'll communicate to surviveand thrive in that ship.
So when people use words likerelation and ship, what have you
done to create the ship?
Because if we love this, if wehaven't interacted enough, I
don't know.
There's no planks.
So, true, just a plank.
It's just two names.
It's wayward.
Your two names that will cometogether.
(39:45):
And, yes, if I think about mypersonal relationships and our
professional relationships,absolutely you bang on.
It's about the interactions andthose interactions is where you
find the alignment and thetrustfulness we had.
Professor rob co earliertalking about trust is not just
a word.
There's dimensions to us andsimilarly, when we build
(40:05):
anything, there's dimensions towhen we build something.
And if we just think that justsaying hello and get on with
your work is a relationship,it's not.
Or we're saying how's it goingand then we quickly move on.
That's not a relationship.
And I think the crunchiest time,because everyone who's watching
is thinking, oh, that's allwell and good, but I've got, I
(40:28):
only have two ppa.
There's ppa periods across myweek.
If I give every child thatpersonal touch or first class
service, I will not be able toplan my lessons.
So I think having some sort ofsystem where it's distributed
across numerous members of staff, you don't feel the weight of
(40:49):
the world.
And it goes back to your pointabout specialists, everybody's
responsibility and having asystem for well-being and a
system for students and childrenunderstanding who they can go
to, but also everyone caring andwhen that happens across the
day.
And we think about the touchpoints where every child is the
(41:10):
main character of their storyand this video.
If I started my day and I'mwalking into school right camera
, point of view camera.
We walk into school, how manytimes do I feel cared for
throughout the day?
And if it's too few, then wouldwe say safeguarding in that
school is robust, would we.
And if we are seeing a threadwe said of this practitioner
(41:34):
asking me about am I okay, thenanother one.
I might start asking myself ifI'm okay and be able to
potentially self-regulate ormuster the courage to speak up
about the problem, because I'vehad three people Maybe I'm too
shy, but the second, third andfourth across that I then think,
okay, the next person who asksme, I'm actually going to tell
(41:57):
them and I think that's the partthat we're talking about that
might be missing to ensure thatsafeguarding is focused on each
child because they are the maincharacter of their own child in
the center of the child that wedo.
Yeah, thank you so much.
Really enjoyed the conversation.
We've gone on a little bitlonger than I.
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