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What shapes resilient educational leaders? Sue Aspinall's remarkable journey reveals how personal challenges can forge professional strength. Growing up in northern England, Sue watched her widowed mother raise four children with unwavering determination, a powerful example that instilled independence and resilience from an early age. This foundation propelled Sue to become the first woman in her family to pursue higher education, choosing teaching as a career path that promised stability while fulfilling her passion for learning.
Sue's leadership journey spans continents and cultures. From her early teaching days in England's diverse inner-city schools to founding headship in rapidly developing Kuala Lumpur, each experience built upon the last. After valuable mentorship under an executive head in London, Sue led the British School in Tokyo before spending a decade at the British School in the Netherlands. Her leadership philosophy emphasises longevity – staying long enough to embed meaningful change and develop strong succession plans rather than making brief stops at multiple institutions.
Now working as a leadership coach, Sue addresses the critical factors that drive talented leaders from education, including perceived career ceilings, insufficient professional development, challenging workplace relationships, and emotional responses to difficult situations. She draws a thoughtful distinction between coaching and mentoring, emphasising proper qualifications when seeking support. Sue's current focus on ethical leadership particularly resonates in international education, where diverse communities require inclusive environments grounded in clear moral frameworks. Her story demonstrates that great leadership isn't merely about navigating systems, but about creating pathways that enable others to follow, just as her mother once did for her.
Sue's Bio: I have spent 35 years as a teacher, Headteacher and Executive Leader working in Asia, Europe and the UK. In recent years, I became a leadership coach and trainer, an author, speaker and podcast co-host.
I offer personalised coaching and mentoring to leaders working in international settings at all levels. I co-design equitable, evidence-informed and caring leadership development programmes which provide sustainable change in schools.
You can find me on LinkedIn
www.linkedin.com/in/sue-aspinall-1311b284/
via my website:
www.Embracing-Leadership.com
on the podcast I host with Cazzie Jude
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We're gaining knowledge viaexperience.
Sue is going to talk to usabout her journey, where she's
been, what she's done, how she'snavigated challenges and really
(00:39):
she's going to help us tounderstand where she is now and
some of the things that she'sdoing.
Welcome, Sue.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Thank you so much,
lisa, and yeah, I'm just really
pleased to be here and I'm justgoing to talk about, you know,
my life and how things havepanned out and everybody's
journey is different, so minewill come across like that, I'm
sure.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Brilliant because we
learn from each other's journeys
.
I see we're matching energieswith the black.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
I see that actually?
Yeah, it's.
It's very hot here in theNetherlands, so the t-shirts are
coming out, yeah not as you,but we're creeping towards
Dubai's temperatures whereaboutsare you in the Netherlands?
I'm based in the Hague, so notfar from the beach, and it's 26
degrees today, so people arevery excited to see the sun.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Oh, I can imagine 26
in Europe is like absolutely,
tell me, you are passionateabout women in leadership.
You are.
You know.
Your podcast is about women.
Lead because they can and truthis they can.
We absolutely can, yeah, um,but take me back to your early
(01:53):
years.
Where did you grow up and howdid you end up on the career
trajectory that you are on?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
wow, um, I grew up in
the north of England and I
think the things that reallyshaped me was the fact that the
biggest thing was that my fatherdied when I was a teenager.
So I was brought up by my momand there was four of us in the
(02:20):
family.
I was the eldest, four of us inthe family I was the eldest.
So what came out of that wasseeing my mum, as a young widow,
being this consistent,dedicated parent, wanting the
best for us in situations thatyou know were really challenging
for her in that particularcontext at that particular time.
(02:42):
And what it also taught me wasthat, you know, she gave me so
much independence from a veryearly age, so that enabled me to
kind of stand on my own feet,get on with my life and take the
opportunities that wereavailable for me, because I kind
(03:03):
of knew if I didn't, if Ididn't do it, it wasn't going to
happen, and I had to do that tohelp her in a way as well.
And so I was the first woman inmy family to do A-levels and to
get a degree, and also becauseof the financial situation in my
(03:26):
family, I wanted to get adegree that would get me almost
guaranteed work.
So teaching came out of that.
It was either into the medicalprofession nursing or something
like that or into teaching.
Those were kind of the storiesthat were being told to me and,
yeah, I didn't ever question it.
(03:47):
Actually I went into teaching,absolutely loved it.
It was tough teaching in thenorth of England because the
place that I went to wereschools in the inner cities of
Hull, gould, bradford, leeds,you know.
But I just loved the teachersthat I met there and was
(04:12):
inspired by them and was reallysupported.
So working in really diverse,well-run schools with really
great teachers as mentors reallyset me off on a really
important pathway.
And what was really interestingwas that that later on in her
(04:36):
life, my mum who was always, youknow, someone very important in
my, in my background she wenton to do her own A-levels and
degree and went on to workfull-time.
So you know, you never knowwhat the influence is going to
be in your family and what'sgoing to open up.
So I think that also shaped mythinking and my passion around
(05:02):
paving your own pathway, orcreating your own pathway, and
also opening doors andpresenting options so that
people coming behind you, atwhatever stage in life they're
at have that as inspirationreally, or an opportunity as
(05:29):
inspiration, really, or anopportunity.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, it's
interesting because my dad died
when I was 19, right um, and Igrew my mom who was just the
strongest woman in the worldlike she really embodied
strength for me.
I remember when my mom passedin 2018 and I remember when they
told me that she passed away, Iwas like I know grief,
disbelief is a part of grief butI literally went nah like she
(05:56):
couldn't have passed away, likeshe's super strong.
It was not the regular level ofdenial, it was more of a.
It's just not something I canbelieve.
I've never seen her ill.
I've never seen her one day belike, oh, I can't get up and get
going.
Like she was a force the tour,like she really was, and so I
(06:19):
think what do you think havingthat strong feminine role model
did for you?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I I think what my mom
presented for me and and
actually it was her mother aswell, so there was a kind of
lineage there um was thingshappen in life and it's yet it
takes time to get over that,because I saw the pain and the
(06:48):
shock and the time it took mymum to.
You know, I mean for her.
She's never come through thattime fully, it lives with her
all the time, but I saw how shemanaged through that time, um,
but there was always thisresilience in her and there was
(07:10):
always this determination thatwe as a family would be okay and
she would do everything shepossibly could to give us
opportunity.
So I think what she taught mewas was that resilience really,
and it's kind of of when I havechallenges and upsets in my own
life, it's kind of like I lookback at those times and think
(07:31):
just get over it, sue.
You know it puts things inperspective, I think.
So that was part of it.
And there was another side isthat, you know, my mum grew up
in a community where you didn'tshow emotion publicly or in
front of your children and, um,now when I look back at it, I I
(07:56):
think you know like who wasthere for her.
Really, I'm sure she hadsomebody, but I didn't see it
and um, and I wonder whether shehad the opportunity to to
grieve properly in that timeframe and and to be herself and
to to speak and cry and ask thequestions she wanted to.
(08:19):
So what I've kind of learnedfrom that is definitely, I think
, as a young person, thatcloseness, emotional closeness,
was maybe not as warm and asclose as it was in other
families because she wasmanaging in the way she was.
(08:40):
So I've learned the importanceof that and had to kind of um,
really consciously bring it intomy own space.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I get ability, you
know, yeah, I get that.
So talk to me about yourtransition from your career in
teaching into leadership.
Where did you lead?
Where did you get your yourfirst foot on the ladder?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
it came um through
different jobs that I had in the
state sector I was working inin London for a number of years
and I had a real um.
I always had people around mewho invested in my career and
supported me into differentleadership roles.
So in those days it was thingslike I was musical, so I led
(09:30):
music, or I led a year group, orI led on professional
development, and that was allprior to then going on to being
a deputy.
So my first deputy headship wasin a school in North London,
and so the rest of my leadershipjourney came actually from
(09:53):
deciding to go and workinternationally.
And I moved to Malaysia with mypartner at the time who had got
a job there, and became adeputy and then head of a school
in Kuala.
Lumpur.
So that was my first real moveinto leading in the
international sector.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Malaysia.
I was saying what was your timein Malaysia?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
like it was really,
really fascinating because I
went there in 1995.
So this was when Kuala Lumpurwas about to absolutely explode
in terms of development.
So it was this mixture at thetime of all sorts of different
(10:36):
cultures, and the architecture,um, and the, the, the
infrastructure, represented thisreally mixed community.
And then I witnessed thisextraordinary shift to being the
modern city that it is today.
So I became the, the foundinghead at garden school, which is
(11:00):
in the bucket chiara area, andit was the first building to go
into bucket chiara and they'dactually knocked down
rainforests and cleared the areain order to start the expansion
of the city in that area.
So to see that change on scalewas absolutely phenomenal and
(11:21):
the pace of change wasincredible.
I mean, there were times theysaid I can't believe it, I'm too
young to be in the middle ofall of this.
But in those days, in thosesituations, you just got on with
it and you did your best, best,you worked together with the
people that were there and um, akind of a baptism by fire, I
(11:45):
would say, like you know, in itwith it, with a skill set that
you just hoped was going to helpyou yeah, yeah, and after
Malaysia, keep this, keep going,keep going yeah, after Malaysia
I returned to London and I wasworking in a school near
Elscourt with a fantasticexecutive head, so I had the
(12:11):
opportunity to have somebodyworking with me who really
trained me as a leader.
So I went from this experiencein Malaysia to kind of being
really supported and helped ingrowing as a leader and I stayed
there for seven years actuallyin a school that was also
(12:34):
offering a lot of support toother schools.
So it was a great opportunityto see how, when you work in a
school that's come on a longjourney and is doing well, how
you can do outreach and supportother schools.
And I loved being in thatsituation where we worked as a
cluster, supporting each otherand getting the best we possibly
(12:57):
could to students beyond ourown school.
So that that part of of mycareer I really remember as
being a really rich learningtime.
Um, and then I came to a pointwhere I was restless, wanted to
have another internationalexperience and was fortunate to
(13:18):
get the primary headship at um,the British school in Tokyo.
And, yeah, I just wanted to gosomewhere where I didn't know
the culture, the language, hadno connections, and just immerse
myself in that new experienceand, um, and it was a great time
of growth for that particularschool as well.
(13:40):
Going from a school that wassplit onto two sites in rented
accommodation it was about tostart growing and to see it
through to the beginning ofwhere it is now as a school was
just very exciting.
Of course I was moreexperienced, so going in at that
(14:02):
time, um, I I really sort offelt I knew a bit more about
what I was doing yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And so what's led you
to Amsterdam?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
I came here to um
after the the job in tokyo I I
um got this position at thebritish school in the
netherlands, um and I have.
I was in that position for 10years and was able to get
residency here in thenetherlands, so hence why I
(14:34):
stayed.
I love the country and feelvery invested in it as a place,
so when I stepped down from myrole at the DSN, I decided to
stay.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Okay, and so your
work now centres around what?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Yeah, I'm actually a
I kind of say I'm a leadership
coach.
What I do can talk to do what'sgoing on in their professional
life.
Sometimes it involves theirpersonal life as well, and I
(15:27):
think what they say to me isbecause I've also been there.
We have this commonunderstanding around some of the
issues, some of the context,some of the things that come up
for them.
So they're not having toexplain things because I kind of
get it and my purpose really isto help them be the best they
(15:51):
can be and keep them in theprofession as well, so that our
schools have those really keyleaders moving through into
those more senior positions.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
yeah, keep them in
the profession.
What do you think is drivingthem out of the profession?
Speaker 3 (16:13):
this, this, the
things that are coming up in the
conversations are feeling thatthere's nowhere to go.
So I interpret that as possiblythere's a mismatch in
investment in them and that'sparticularly in their particular
(16:36):
schools.
That's particularly in theirparticular schools.
So a lot of what I'm I'mstarting to do is support these
people in in how to ask for helpand where to ask for it and how
to spread their profile if it'snot happening in their own
context in their school.
(16:57):
So I think that's one Anotherthing that I've come across is
that when a leader has had aparticularly difficult time with
the line manager or a colleagueclose to them and has felt sort
of unsupported, unbacked, theemotional response to that
(17:20):
sometimes has been I've just gotto get out of here.
So again, what I've been workingthrough with them is strategies
to try and manage thatemotional reaction, to give
different perspectives on whatmay have happened and then to
support with the gainedconfidence to go back to have a
(17:45):
different sort of conversationrather than leave.
So it's that.
And then the the other thing isthat I didn't realize, but I
think I'm probably in a smallgroup in terms of head teachers
who stayed for the longer term.
So my 10 years have been sixyears, seven years, 10 years.
(18:05):
And I just do that because Ireally love those initial years
when you're building a team andyou're really starting to drive
change and move the schoolforwards.
And then I like to stay to makesure that it's embedded, it's
part of the culture, it's partof the way that school does what
(18:27):
it does and you've got asuccession plan ready to hand
that on to the next person.
And the more work that I do onthe coaching side, the more that
I realize that that's not theregular pattern across a lot of
the areas globally and therecould be some impact on that in
(18:49):
the short term and in the longterm with regular turnover in
those more senior positions.
It's more senior positions, soit's kind of working with um
colleagues who are in theassistant head, deputy head,
head, teacher level to see to tomake meaning out of another
(19:10):
contract or extending their stayum yeah, who seeks that help?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
is it the school that
that seeks you out to help
there, or is it the individualthemselves, who would be like
you know what?
I think I need some help here.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Coach someone to
guide me.
Who's doing the seeking in inall of paying for it themselves
or claiming it back later.
So you know, they're coming tome because they've maybe been
recommend me or we've workedtogether in the past, or they've
(19:49):
heard or what have you, um, butthey're needing somebody
outside of context who they feelthey can trust and and and to
share everything with, in orderto try and unpick what is going
on for them.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, Should schools
be paying for this, especially
international private schools?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I would say yes, I
think it's.
I mean, I think it's arespectful part of a leader's
own personal development.
But I think that around thatoffer needs to be some really
careful agreements aroundconfidentiality, around how it's
(20:33):
perceived, because I think someof the people I'm coaching have
said that it's still perceivedas a weakness if you ask for
funding for coaching.
Why, yeah, it's in individualcases, but it's um and also in
their perception, so they'reworried about if they go and ask
(20:54):
for it, then there might be aperception that they're
(21:14):
struggling and that we've seenas a negative.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
so it's kind of in
the system still.
Yeah, education orinternational private education
is all pinned to some KPI ofsome sort, and I'm wondering if
that's why schools are like nope, we're not paying for coaching
for leaders because we don't seean immediate ROI.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
No, I just absolutely
agree that that's maybe where
it's.
If it's coming through from theHR department and you've got
colleagues in there who've notnecessarily understanding the
coaching what it's about,they'll automatically link it to
an outcome performance outcomeWhereas the organizations that
see it as part of personalgrowth then they're more likely
(22:03):
to pay for it and there'd beclear agreements of
confidentiality.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
I think in recent
years, something I've observed
is that there is an increasednumber of coaches like a
plethora.
How do you identify a good one?
Speaker 3 (22:18):
The first thing that
I would say is that you need to
look at the qualifications,because there are people who
have just done a short courseand then entered coaching.
So, for example, in my case, Idid do a fully registered
coaching program and gotcertified through that school
(22:41):
and then became a certifiedcoach with the International
Coaching Federation, which is aquality assurance, a global
quality assurance, and I thinkwhat's really important about
that is that anyone who then islooking for a coach, they know
that the coach has bought intothe ethics of that particular
(23:04):
federation, which has boughtinto the ethics of that
particular federation.
So there's a level of qualityassurance there before they
start.
And then it's also thedifference between coaching and
mentoring.
You know, if you're going forcoaching, then that's somebody
(23:25):
who's going to absolutely bethere for you and is not going
to necessarily advise you orguide you.
They're going to be asking thequestions, they're going to be
helping you look at your blindspots, look at different
perspectives, um, and reallyevoke change and growth.
Yeah, mentorship is is moresomething that you know that I
do in some of my conversationswith people who are, say, head
(23:48):
teachers, because I've beenthere and I've had experience in
that field and we can sharebest solutions.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, so doesn't it
overlap sometimes Like you
become a coach and a mentor?
Absolute.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Absolute, yeah, and
if I'm coaching, then I will say
to the client um, would youlike a perspective on that?
Would you like some advice onthat, so that they know where
we're then moving into moretouring role?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
yeah, yeah, yeah, I
can see that happening with.
With your experience and yourexpertise, I can see you know a
leader going.
What would you do in thissituation?
What do you suggest I do, orhave you got any ideas you could
share with me, because, it'syou know, it's not unfamiliar
territory to you?
Speaker 3 (24:38):
no, and it's also
particularly for people who are
aspiring to be in in anotherrole that's higher up in terms
of seniority.
You know they want to explorewhat that might be like and they
may not have a good view of ityet, because they've just not
been there or not been able toshadow somebody.
So they're wanting to know fromyou what it's like, what advice
(25:03):
you'd give in terms of newtraining, or you know what they
might need to take into account.
So in those cases I would say,um well, I can give you some
advice from a head teacher'spoint of view, and I normally
put my head teacher hat on sothat they know it's it's, it's
my experience that's speaking tothem, and then they can choose
(25:24):
to do what they want with thatinformation yeah, yeah, yeah, I
can see that brilliant.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Um one last question.
So what are you working on now,apart from your coaching?
What else are you doing?
Speaker 3 (25:37):
the the piece of work
that I'm really interested in
at the moment is around ethicalleadership and how we can
support people working in theinternational sector when there
are issues starting to come upin the student and parent body
(25:58):
that are maybe new or have notbeen discussed in depth at a
leadership level.
So, for example, colleagues whoare working in Hong Kong they
have an increasing number ofstudents coming into their
schools from a range ofdifferent regions within Asia
(26:22):
and there are some views amongstthe parents and amongst the
student body that are startingto be are equipped with um the
knowledge they need and a clearmoral stance within that
(26:52):
community, and that the seniorleaders are talking about those
issues as they come up and andhopefully before they come up.
So it's like, you know, if ourcommunity is changing, what are
the things that we now need tobe aware about if we're going to
keep our communities inclusiveand safe for all students and
(27:13):
families?
So yeah, I'm interested in that.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, ethical
leadership is quite a topic that
needs more discussion and morevisibility.
There are some issues as wellhere in the Middle East around
things that are going on outsideof school, that's filtering
into schools certain conflicts,certain little things that could
(27:43):
impact the life at school.
And how do school leadersnavigate that in an ethical way,
creating that space withintheir school where everyone is
valued equally and creating thathome where everyone's views are
heard, but respectfullyabsolutely yeah, yeah like that
(28:06):
thanks for being on the podcast,so all right.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Well, thank you so
much for the opportunity.
It's really good to speak toyou and I.
I love what you're doing andthe support and help that you do
for everybody, and I waslooking at what you were doing
at your ai summit, socongratulations to you for, and
your team for, doing that, soit's much needed.
I'm sure people took away a lotfrom it.
(28:29):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Thank you for
listening to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
Visit our websiteteachmiddleeastcom and follow us
on social media.
The links are in the show notes.