Leadership in education requires vision, authentic relationships, and an unwavering focus on serving children above all else.
• Scan your school to identify talent and tap potential leaders on the shoulder
• Maintain authentic leadership while balancing accountability and relationships
• Lead with grace and empathy even when delivering difficult messages
• Build resilience through supportive networks and keeping your eye on long-term goals
• Return consistently to your school's vision and values when managing stakeholder demands
• Know which battles are worth fighting and where your ethical "red lines" are
• Recognize when it's time to step back from headship without abandoning your impact on education
• Use your wisdom and experience to influence education more broadly after direct leadership roles
• Remember that your moral compass matters more than institutional politics
• Always centre children in your decision-making—"We wouldn't have jobs if it wasn't for them"
If you're looking to develop your leadership capacity, focus on building relationships, clarify your personal and professional goals, and remember why we're all here—to provide the best possible future for the children in our care.
Guest hosted by Zoubiya Ahmed
Connect with Zoubiya at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoubiya/
Connect with Evelyn Forde here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evelyn-forde-mbe-6a607218/
Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.
Visit our website https://linktr.ee/teachmiddleeast.
Tweet us: https://twitter.com/teachmiddleeast
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Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson
Connect with Leisa Grace:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/leisagrace
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leisagrace/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hi, how are you today ?
I'm good, I'm really excited tobe here.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Thank you, it was a pleasure to be in the audience
of your keynote at the MiddleEast School Leadership
Conference today.
How have you found your day sofar?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Do you know what I found it really energising?
There's a real buzz in the roomand my keynote was followed by
Schoolbox and giving me anon-perspective around
relationships and parents, and Ijust think, yeah, there's a
real broad church here, so Ijust think it's amazing
brilliant and in terms of yourillustrious career in education.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Before we move on to the question that we talked
about vision and clarity andstakeholders, yeah, what is a
message that you would likefuture school leaders to hear?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
yeah, great question.
Do you know what I think?
Because of my own experience,I'm really, I would really like
school leaders just and Imentioned it in my keynote tap
talent on the shoulder.
I want them to scan the horizonof their schools.
I want them to scan the horizonof their schools.
(01:23):
I want them to look and seewho's just under the parapet but
has got amazing potential.
And I say that because we'realso in a recruitment and
retention crisis and if we'renot investing in our staff, we
could lose them.
And I'm sure there are somereal gems in our schools.
(01:45):
And so I encourage smallleaders to go back to scan the
horizons, see who's there,elevate them, promote them,
encourage them.
And my theme was you cannot bewhat you cannot see.
So let's do it.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Really useful advice there and I really, when I was
sitting in the audiencelistening to you talk, I was
replaying and I mentioned thisto you off camera the
experiences I've had, whichrequired resilience and
sometimes we're not sure if it'sgoing to work out in the end
for us, and it's lovely to hearfrom those who have been
(02:22):
recognized that it can work whenwe have those, that support
from leaders who say, yeah, thatthank you for that.
It just exactly takes us to thenext level.
Question related to that,before we go on to the golden
question, is what do you thinksome of the reasons are that
leaders aren't tapping people onthe shoulder.
(02:43):
Yeah, what could be somebarriers and what can be done
about it?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
yeah, I think some of the barriers that sometimes and
I'm I was guilty of this onoccasions as a head and I talk a
lot about it now is look up andout and I think, because of the
way the schools areaccountability, funding, funding
and retention we're so busylooking down that we get
(03:08):
immersed in the day-to-day whatneeds to be done that actually
we can forget, and so I thinkthat's a barrier that some heads
occasionally was guilty in youroffice and you're not really
doing that scanning and I'm bigon relationships not doing
enough of that relationshipbuilding.
I think that can become an issue, and so I think how we overcome
(03:31):
that is and I think when you'rein a school and you'll know as
a leader it's looking thosecorridors right, having
conversations with the children,having conversations with the
children, having conversationswith the staff, getting to know
people, and I think once you dothat, then you'll really
understand who is in my school.
I mean, I appointed her threeyears ago but I've never had a
(03:53):
conversation with her or him.
Make the time.
I think investing inrelationships I think will go a
long way.
How about a leader?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
who might be listening to this, watching you
and thinking I'm really busy andI don't want to come off
disingenuous to my team.
We've got so much pressure onus.
I've gone into a kind of actionplanning meeting, performance
standards meeting and I've toldthem they need to do this and
this, set timelines, and then,if I switch to the relationship
(04:23):
mode, am I going to come off?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, I get that.
I get that.
You know what I used to say tomy team.
I used to say to them, theminute we walk through the
school gates you do put yourgame face on right, because
you're a leader, you're staffingthe children, you're staffing
them.
You put your game face on, butyou're still you, okay, and it's
those.
It's those those traits of justbeing kind, being empathetic,
(04:51):
smile and, yes, you know thatwhole accountability, holding
your teams for account standards.
You can do it with grace, right, yeah, and you can have those
hard messages but leave theperson with dignity.
So I'm not sure I buy that.
I'm busy.
I can't switch into thatBecause I think you can do both.
(05:13):
I really do, and I think if youdo both, you're more likely to
bring your staff with you androutines with you and they'll
want to do more with you and foryou.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I'm being the devil's advocate?
Self-talk devil's advocate,wait, we tell ourselves exactly,
I know.
And then we manifest them andI'm your bigger manifestation.
We manifest them in that.
No, I have to go and do x and yand the question is, do you
really have to do that now?
Yeah, or could you look at howyou can structure?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
exactly yeah, so yeah thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
How about and I know I said this is the last one, but
I'm just too curious ifsomeone's looking up to you and
seeing the three letters afteryour name, yeah, and thinking
that you've been accoladed bythe government, the royal family
, if someone else wanted toaspire to the same yeah what do
you think?
How?
How must they consider theirleadership?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
yeah, I'm very honest and I always say it's not going
to be easy, regardless of whoyou are man, woman, whatever
it's never easy, but I thinksometimes those, those
challenges, I think thosechallenges are quite good for us
sometimes.
So, yes, if somebody's lookingup and thinking, oh, maybe I
(06:26):
could become, what does thatlook like?
Is a ton of resilience.
You do, and I also think you doneed a good network around you
and it's made by a culturalmentor, which is great.
But I also think people thatlove you, your friends, your
family, that will be therebecause there will be some
setbacks.
You need to dig deep and havethe resilience you've got.
You need all of.
So I would say resilience, Iwould say friends and family, I
(06:53):
would say keep your eye on theprize right, because if you
really want it, then the art ofthe possible is what I said
earlier the art of the possibleis what I said earlier the art
of the possible.
But, yeah, resilience.
And people say, oh, everybody'sgot a bit of resilience, but
sometimes you're talking aboutnot that.
If we weren't resilient women,we wouldn't be sitting here
(07:17):
today, and so I see that asquite powerful actually, and I
want young girls to see thepower in resilience as well,
because you can then becomewhoever you want to become.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, and that concept of legacy, I also have
two girls and when you mentionedthat you have two girls at that
time and you said clear, thenyou had three it really
resonated because I do want aworld cliche, I don't mind, you
can say I'm a cliche lover, butI do want a world where my
daughters are facing challengesthat aren't the challenges we
(07:50):
are facing want them to see, youknow possibility.
Yeah, where we saw ceilings ahundred percent.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, I'm with you all the way.
And so my headship was in agirl's school and my, when I was
a head of year I was in agirl's school three daughters,
so there was some girl power.
I just unashamedly, becauseit's hard out there for girls
and I just think if we are in aposition where we can celebrate
and elevate, then I think I alsowanted to slide into the fact
(08:20):
that something you mentioned inyour keynote earlier, which was
really the accolade and therecognitions come, yeah, but
actually you're.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
What you said right at the beginning of your keynote
was that you're in service,yeah, of children.
Yeah, and that is.
We say it and it's on thewebsite, and it's on this, and
it's said in every on thebrochure, and it's said in the
policy documents and it's saideverywhere.
Sometimes, something is said tothe point where it saturates
and it no longer feels relevant.
(08:50):
Um, how important was that inthe recognitions that you got
along the way?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
yeah, that's a really good question.
Actually, I always maintainthat I wouldn't have got those
recognitions if I hadn't beendoing everything that I was
doing, which is therelationships with the children.
It's the outcomes for thechildren is, regardless of your
starting point, I want, andregardless of my starting point,
(09:18):
right.
I wanted the girls or thechildren that I taught, or the
schools that I led.
I wanted them to see and havethose opportunities, and so I
always hopefully stay true tothat service and I do talk about
because we wouldn't be in jobsif we didn't have the children,
and so for me, it's we are hereactually to serve you.
(09:40):
I get paid because of you, sothe accolades are a bit of a
they're nice to have, they'renice to have, they are, and it
opens doors.
I can have conversations withdifferent people and sometimes
people listen.
But actually, if you strip allof that back, I signed up to be
a teacher, yeah, and I wanted tothey say once a teacher, always
(10:03):
a teacher exactly, absolutely,yeah, I am gonna.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I promise to go into this question which is how do we
maintain and we mentioned justa minute ago about the fact that
teachers and leaders arewouldn't have a job if it wasn't
for children and the fact thatwe are involved in their
development across time yeah, ina in an environment that's and
(10:26):
I know we've worked withgovernments as well in an
environment that's fee payingand also not not fee paying for
profit education, not for profiteducation.
Yeah, with that in mind, I'vehad in the uae in the past, an
affluent student tell me that wepay your wages, but not in a
pleasant way.
Yeah, now, given the havingboards that maybe have demands
(10:51):
on school leaders in certainparts of the world that maybe
are achievable, but not withinthe timeframe that they're
looking for.
This is the context of thisquestion, which is how do you
maintain vision clarity whilemanaging diverse stakeholder
needs?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, look, I don't think it's easy.
I think let's just be honestand transparent about that.
It's not easy when you've gotso many different voices that
feel that they need a seat atthe table and actually some of
them do need a seat at the tablebut I think that I wish used to
go back to the vision and thevalues of the school.
(11:28):
Okay, what are we striving toachieve?
And when, let's say, parentssend their children to our
schools, I would hope it'sbecause of the vision and the
values and the education thattherefore comes as a result of
that, and so I always go back torelationships and I think it's
about always be your message.
(11:49):
Actually, the reason we're hereis so that we can deliver this
excellent education for part ofour values, what our value sets.
Because, yes, if we just look atthe thing about parents and
let's talk thinking parentsright, yes, they do want an
education, but I would alsoargue that they would like their
(12:10):
son or daughter to beupstanding citizens who can be
empathetic, who can be kind, whoknow how to have rich
discussions with diversestakeholders, and actually,
they're getting that in schoolright and, yes, we'll give you a
fantastic education, but allour value sets will be ribboned
(12:32):
through that.
I just think there has to be amutual understanding and for
governors and trust boards andall the diktat that's coming
(12:53):
down, if they want that tohappen, if they want their
teachers to be well becausewell-being is super important
stay well to show up every daybecause we job for what they
were appointed and so that wecan great education value sets.
(13:17):
Your sons and daughters, thechildren in the school, will
leave and be fantastic youngpeople that will take their
rightful place in the world andwill be will be a credit to the
school.
So I'm not saying it's easy,but I think we can stay true to
our value set what we want thefuture generations to become
(13:38):
legacy.
What do we want to become?
Speaker 1 (13:40):
they're going to allow us to do our job.
It's interesting because itrelates to one of the points you
mentioned in your keynote,which is to have those
professional and personal goalsthat you identified, that you
that are where you are now andwhere you hope to be.
So, if those are strong withinyou, you've got a stable set of
goals that you're trying toachieve within your role and
(14:01):
within your career, now and next.
Yeah, it means that you willhave that kind of sturdy footing
by which you'll say, in fact,given that was given that we are
focused on serving the children, as per this priority that we
agreed on, these are the stepsthat have to happen, yeah, and
these are the steps that canhappen in this way, with this
potential outcome.
(14:21):
Yeah, yeah, all yeah.
And we've all sat in thosesituations where we feel beyond
reasonable doubt, yeah, thatthis is the best course of
action.
Yeah, and then, if a boardfeels differently, yeah, you've
stated your case.
Yeah, you've made them awarewhat risks are on both sides,
and then it's a collectivedecision making.
(14:43):
But you've done everything youcan, yeah, to stand by what you
believe in but sometimes wecan't always get the ideal
leadership manifested in the waythat we hoped because of the
push and pull of differentstakeholders.
Parents might want one visionof what they want.
You've got your board or theowner of the school having a
(15:04):
different vision based on thenumber of dirhams in there in
the budget.
So I think being sensitive toyeah, yeah, how different
stakeholders are makingdecisions and the lens that each
stakeholder brings because anaccountant or cfo yeah, they're
going to be speaking the, yeah,the numbers language, so you
need a numbers.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
You do need a numbers story you need a number story
and the number story could bearound.
The outcomes for the youngpeople, okay and yes, outcomes
definitely.
But that young person is notgoing to get those outcomes
unless they a well, be theirteacher during the schools to
actually teach them, andactually they have.
(15:44):
There's that subtle nuance,isn't there around.
Yes, I can write an essay, butwhat else are you bringing to
the essay?
And I would even say for yourCFO, your accountants, your
owners of the schools?
They could have owned anything,they could be an accountant in
a bank, you could be anywhere.
So let's bring it back to whoare we here for?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Children at the serve I always joke and I've probably
said this on another video butyou're never as a principal,
you're a ceo, chief executive,so that actually you're a chief
repetition officer.
You're a cro a lot because youhave to, why, why we're here,
what we're here for.
And sometimes that repetitionmakes you the source of that
(16:29):
north star energy that peopleneed, because they know that
you're going to come over andsay what's best for the children
and they can almost predictthat you're going to come and
say that, yeah, that's reallyinteresting in terms of being
resilient but being brave.
I think there's a bit ofcourage that comes with being a
leader who knows what they knowbut being flexible in taking
(16:49):
everyone with them.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, I also think.
As leaders, I think it'simportant to know which battles
are worth fighting for whichones.
What's your red line in thesack?
Speaker 1 (17:01):
right.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
And just knowing that sometimes boards may make
decisions but, like you said,you've explained, you've stood
true to your morals, and thenthere's be like okay, and that
one, okay, I'm going to go outand I'll party line, and so on.
So, yeah, I think there'ssomething about that as well.
I think just there are somethat you may not win, but
(17:23):
there'll also be your red lines.
Just making sure Because I think, as a leader, the minute you'll
also be your red lines.
Yeah, just making sure.
Yeah, because I think, as aleader, the minute, you're
stepping over your red lines toooften.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, I think it's how it trends right.
When you're checking over timeor I'm not comfortable ethically
, my moral compass is spinning,yeah, oh my, my, there is.
That sense of this doesn't fitwith who I am as a human.
Exactly like I can't go tosleep at night feeling great,
yeah.
Or I can't look my daughter inthe eye and say I did the right
(17:53):
thing here, my husband orwhoever it is that you care for
that.
When you narrate that yourprofessional journey, you have
to say it out or write it downyeah, would that be the proudest
moment.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, if you can't, then I think and some people say
that Often people call us backand say I'm in a bit of a bind.
It's a real difficult situation, not sure whether to leave.
And then we have thatconversation your moral compass,
where is it going?
How much is it spinning?
And actually I've walked awayfrom two schools and I just knew
that actually it was not goodfor me.
(18:27):
And actually I've walked awayfrom two schools and I just knew
that actually it was not goodfor me and I just thought I
can't stay in a school whereit's just not working.
But that's courage, right, yes,and that's bravery.
And I think often for women wecarry that kind of because we
look at the statistics, right,we look at the statistics of how
many female head teachers andso on and so on.
(18:50):
We're afraid that if I leave,that, yeah, am I going to get
that?
And so that resilience, thatcourage, that love is all I just
think is really important.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, I also think the role after that role becomes
so stressful because if andthis has happened to me in my
career where I've moved on, yeah, and I then thought I can't
have a second move on after afirst, because then the common
denominator is me and then youfeel added pressure.
So I think, yes, we can putpressure on ourselves, but we
(19:20):
should also be as you said.
True, yeah, I'm a good person,I'm doing this for the right
reason.
Yeah, hopefully, that's true,I'm doing this right.
I am serving children, yeah,and there there are boards,
organizations, schools, yeah,advisory roles.
There's so much more that isn'tjust leading a school, that
where your vision, your passionyeah, can be recognized and come
(19:43):
to fruition in other ways thatstill impact, yeah, children,
that's going to be fun.
Heads, yeah, do you feel that?
Headship or retirement?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
yeah, yeah what would you say to that?
That's a really great question,because when I stepped back
from headship in the summer of2023 it really was I wanted a
gap year, I was a bit tired anddaughter off to uni and so on,
and I said, you know, I'll justtake a break, evelyn.
And I did have that worry ofbecause the further you are away
from headship, people thinkthat you don't know anything you
(20:14):
get rusty, you get rusty andbut you know what I've landed on
?
wisdom and I think the work thatI do now, whether that's UCL,
coaching, leadership, whateverit is, it's because I've got the
wisdom and the experience and Ipersonally, I didn't want to
(20:35):
step away, I didn't want toretire, I'm not ready to, and I
want and I realize you can makea difference.
Right, you can make adifference.
Just leaving the keynote justnow, I spoke with two people.
I've got these messages.
People just say, oh, you know,that really resonated with me.
I'm going to take that back tomy school.
That's impact, right,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
And so it's, and it's at scale it's at scale, that
leader is a leader with 3,000children, of maybe 150 or maybe
100 families, and that thatenergy and that goodness, that
unique amazingness, is filteringfrom you to not one school but
many schools from here.
Yeah, so there is life afterheadship, is what I say yeah,
(21:17):
absolutely, and that's part ofthe legacy as well, that if you
aspire to be ahead and there isa lot of pressure, I remember
seeing stepping into a meetingwith the board, stepping out and
having 254 emails within 70minutes and even if and then I
was calculating even if I spenda minute on each one, I still
(21:39):
need a huge amount of time overlike nearly four hours just to
go through the email just tofind out what people want from
me, so that and I call it thewashing machine school
leadership you know that spincycle when you put one load off
you're putting another one andyou're just constantly in that
washing machine, that almost webecome institutionalized by that
(22:00):
washing machine, that we thinkthere's nothing else but the
washing machine.
I'm a laundress, like I need togo, and then it's almost like
when someone comes to your dooryou're like, okay, what do they
need?
Is it colors or white?
Do you need 200 degrees or 100?
And on.
That's a really good analogy.
So that washing machine conceptI do want I would like to add
that to leaders that you don'talways have to put yourself
(22:24):
through that forever.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
No, you don't, you don't.
And I also think there'ssomething about knowing when to
stop right, just knowing thatyou've done a really good job
and actually your wisdom,everything that you've got, you
can take it to the next yeah, ornot grinding yourself into the
ground, yeah.
And that's when you need tostop, when you just know that.
(22:49):
Know what?
Because my girls lastly, I justsay that so I've got three
daughters, as I talk about, andmy friends would say, how are
the girls?
And my immediate response wouldbe, because my school was no
girl school I'd say, oh,cocktail, girls are great, we've
done this, we've done that, notown children.
And then it was like and so, asI was going through headship,
(23:11):
like nearly nine years, and Ijust thought there's a little
bit of love that is slightlywaning, and I thought now I'm
really thinking about my ownchildren growing up and so on.
So I think that's reallyimportant as well is knowing
when I've done a good job, I canmove on to something else.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, I'm smiling because my daughter was three
yesterday.
I was doing preparing for theconference actually, and it was
quite late and it was justbefore her bedtime and she was
saying mommy, can you stopbooping?
She means she has a laptop,stop booping, I need to say good
night to you.
And I was like, okay, that'swhen it's like, yeah, switch
(23:52):
mode, just stop, yeah, switchmodes, because those moments,
yeah, your children 100 preciouscritical time.
Critical, we use theprofessional language, just
golden, right, they can't getthem back.
Yeah, thank you so much talkingabout golden.
It's a lovely place to roundoff.
It's been a pleasure speakingto you and I really feel your
(24:12):
heart um in all you do, so thankyou for giving me a bit of that
today.
Thank you, my absolute pleasure.
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hi, how are you today ?
I'm good, I'm really excited tobe here.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Thank you, it was a pleasure to be in the audience
of your keynote at the MiddleEast School Leadership
Conference today.
How have you found your day sofar?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Do you know what I found it really energising?
There's a real buzz in the roomand my keynote was followed by
Schoolbox and giving me anon-perspective around
relationships and parents, and Ijust think, yeah, there's a
real broad church here, so Ijust think it's amazing
brilliant and in terms of yourillustrious career in education.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Before we move on to the question that we talked
about vision and clarity andstakeholders, yeah, what is a
message that you would likefuture school leaders to hear?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
yeah, great question.
Do you know what I think?
Because of my own experience,I'm really, I would really like
school leaders just and Imentioned it in my keynote tap
talent on the shoulder.
I want them to scan the horizonof their schools.
I want them to scan the horizonof their schools.
(01:23):
I want them to look and seewho's just under the parapet but
has got amazing potential.
And I say that because we'realso in a recruitment and
retention crisis and if we'renot investing in our staff, we
could lose them.
And I'm sure there are somereal gems in our schools.
(01:45):
And so I encourage smallleaders to go back to scan the
horizons, see who's there,elevate them, promote them,
encourage them.
And my theme was you cannot bewhat you cannot see.
So let's do it.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Really useful advice there and I really, when I was
sitting in the audiencelistening to you talk, I was
replaying and I mentioned thisto you off camera the
experiences I've had, whichrequired resilience and
sometimes we're not sure if it'sgoing to work out in the end
for us, and it's lovely to hearfrom those who have been
(02:22):
recognized that it can work whenwe have those, that support
from leaders who say, yeah, thatthank you for that.
It just exactly takes us to thenext level.
Question related to that,before we go on to the golden
question, is what do you thinksome of the reasons are that
leaders aren't tapping people onthe shoulder.
(02:43):
Yeah, what could be somebarriers and what can be done
about it?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
yeah, I think some of the barriers that sometimes and
I'm I was guilty of this onoccasions as a head and I talk a
lot about it now is look up andout and I think, because of the
way the schools areaccountability, funding, funding
and retention we're so busylooking down that we get
(03:08):
immersed in the day-to-day whatneeds to be done that actually
we can forget, and so I thinkthat's a barrier that some heads
occasionally was guilty in youroffice and you're not really
doing that scanning and I'm bigon relationships not doing
enough of that relationshipbuilding.
I think that can become an issue, and so I think how we overcome
(03:31):
that is and I think when you'rein a school and you'll know as
a leader it's looking thosecorridors right, having
conversations with the children,having conversations with the
children, having conversationswith the staff, getting to know
people, and I think once you dothat, then you'll really
understand who is in my school.
I mean, I appointed her threeyears ago but I've never had a
(03:53):
conversation with her or him.
Make the time.
I think investing inrelationships I think will go a
long way.
How about a leader?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
who might be listening to this, watching you
and thinking I'm really busy andI don't want to come off
disingenuous to my team.
We've got so much pressure onus.
I've gone into a kind of actionplanning meeting, performance
standards meeting and I've toldthem they need to do this and
this, set timelines, and then,if I switch to the relationship
(04:23):
mode, am I going to come off?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, I get that.
I get that.
You know what I used to say tomy team.
I used to say to them, theminute we walk through the
school gates you do put yourgame face on right, because
you're a leader, you're staffingthe children, you're staffing
them.
You put your game face on, butyou're still you, okay, and it's
those.
It's those those traits of justbeing kind, being empathetic,
(04:51):
smile and, yes, you know thatwhole accountability, holding
your teams for account standards.
You can do it with grace, right, yeah, and you can have those
hard messages but leave theperson with dignity.
So I'm not sure I buy that.
I'm busy.
I can't switch into thatBecause I think you can do both.
(05:13):
I really do, and I think if youdo both, you're more likely to
bring your staff with you androutines with you and they'll
want to do more with you and foryou.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I'm being the devil's advocate?
Self-talk devil's advocate,wait, we tell ourselves exactly,
I know.
And then we manifest them andI'm your bigger manifestation.
We manifest them in that.
No, I have to go and do x and yand the question is, do you
really have to do that now?
Yeah, or could you look at howyou can structure?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
exactly yeah, so yeah thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
How about and I know I said this is the last one, but
I'm just too curious ifsomeone's looking up to you and
seeing the three letters afteryour name, yeah, and thinking
that you've been accoladed bythe government, the royal family
, if someone else wanted toaspire to the same yeah what do
you think?
How?
How must they consider theirleadership?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
yeah, I'm very honest and I always say it's not going
to be easy, regardless of whoyou are man, woman, whatever
it's never easy, but I thinksometimes those, those
challenges, I think thosechallenges are quite good for us
sometimes.
So, yes, if somebody's lookingup and thinking, oh, maybe I
(06:26):
could become, what does thatlook like?
Is a ton of resilience.
You do, and I also think you doneed a good network around you
and it's made by a culturalmentor, which is great.
But I also think people thatlove you, your friends, your
family, that will be therebecause there will be some
setbacks.
You need to dig deep and havethe resilience you've got.
You need all of.
So I would say resilience, Iwould say friends and family, I
(06:53):
would say keep your eye on theprize right, because if you
really want it, then the art ofthe possible is what I said
earlier the art of the possibleis what I said earlier the art
of the possible.
But, yeah, resilience.
And people say, oh, everybody'sgot a bit of resilience, but
sometimes you're talking aboutnot that.
If we weren't resilient women,we wouldn't be sitting here
(07:17):
today, and so I see that asquite powerful actually, and I
want young girls to see thepower in resilience as well,
because you can then becomewhoever you want to become.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, and that concept of legacy, I also have
two girls and when you mentionedthat you have two girls at that
time and you said clear, thenyou had three it really
resonated because I do want aworld cliche, I don't mind, you
can say I'm a cliche lover, butI do want a world where my
daughters are facing challengesthat aren't the challenges we
(07:50):
are facing want them to see, youknow possibility.
Yeah, where we saw ceilings ahundred percent.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, I'm with you all the way.
And so my headship was in agirl's school and my, when I was
a head of year I was in agirl's school three daughters,
so there was some girl power.
I just unashamedly, becauseit's hard out there for girls
and I just think if we are in aposition where we can celebrate
and elevate, then I think I alsowanted to slide into the fact
(08:20):
that something you mentioned inyour keynote earlier, which was
really the accolade and therecognitions come, yeah, but
actually you're.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
What you said right at the beginning of your keynote
was that you're in service,yeah, of children.
Yeah, and that is.
We say it and it's on thewebsite, and it's on this, and
it's said in every on thebrochure, and it's said in the
policy documents and it's saideverywhere.
Sometimes, something is said tothe point where it saturates
and it no longer feels relevant.
(08:50):
Um, how important was that inthe recognitions that you got
along the way?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
yeah, that's a really good question.
Actually, I always maintainthat I wouldn't have got those
recognitions if I hadn't beendoing everything that I was
doing, which is therelationships with the children.
It's the outcomes for thechildren is, regardless of your
starting point, I want, andregardless of my starting point,
(09:18):
right.
I wanted the girls or thechildren that I taught, or the
schools that I led.
I wanted them to see and havethose opportunities, and so I
always hopefully stay true tothat service and I do talk about
because we wouldn't be in jobsif we didn't have the children,
and so for me, it's we are hereactually to serve you.
(09:40):
I get paid because of you, sothe accolades are a bit of a
they're nice to have, they'renice to have, they are, and it
opens doors.
I can have conversations withdifferent people and sometimes
people listen.
But actually, if you strip allof that back, I signed up to be
a teacher, yeah, and I wanted tothey say once a teacher, always
(10:03):
a teacher exactly, absolutely,yeah, I am gonna.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I promise to go into this question which is how do we
maintain and we mentioned justa minute ago about the fact that
teachers and leaders arewouldn't have a job if it wasn't
for children and the fact thatwe are involved in their
development across time yeah, ina in an environment that's and
(10:26):
I know we've worked withgovernments as well in an
environment that's fee payingand also not not fee paying for
profit education, not for profiteducation.
Yeah, with that in mind, I'vehad in the uae in the past, an
affluent student tell me that wepay your wages, but not in a
pleasant way.
Yeah, now, given the havingboards that maybe have demands
(10:51):
on school leaders in certainparts of the world that maybe
are achievable, but not withinthe timeframe that they're
looking for.
This is the context of thisquestion, which is how do you
maintain vision clarity whilemanaging diverse stakeholder
needs?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, look, I don't think it's easy.
I think let's just be honestand transparent about that.
It's not easy when you've gotso many different voices that
feel that they need a seat atthe table and actually some of
them do need a seat at the tablebut I think that I wish used to
go back to the vision and thevalues of the school.
(11:28):
Okay, what are we striving toachieve?
And when, let's say, parentssend their children to our
schools, I would hope it'sbecause of the vision and the
values and the education thattherefore comes as a result of
that, and so I always go back torelationships and I think it's
about always be your message.
(11:49):
Actually, the reason we're hereis so that we can deliver this
excellent education for part ofour values, what our value sets.
Because, yes, if we just look atthe thing about parents and
let's talk thinking parentsright, yes, they do want an
education, but I would alsoargue that they would like their
(12:10):
son or daughter to beupstanding citizens who can be
empathetic, who can be kind, whoknow how to have rich
discussions with diversestakeholders, and actually,
they're getting that in schoolright and, yes, we'll give you a
fantastic education, but allour value sets will be ribboned
(12:32):
through that.
I just think there has to be amutual understanding and for
governors and trust boards andall the diktat that's coming
(12:53):
down, if they want that tohappen, if they want their
teachers to be well becausewell-being is super important
stay well to show up every daybecause we job for what they
were appointed and so that wecan great education value sets.
(13:17):
Your sons and daughters, thechildren in the school, will
leave and be fantastic youngpeople that will take their
rightful place in the world andwill be will be a credit to the
school.
So I'm not saying it's easy,but I think we can stay true to
our value set what we want thefuture generations to become
(13:38):
legacy.
What do we want to become?
Speaker 1 (13:40):
they're going to allow us to do our job.
It's interesting because itrelates to one of the points you
mentioned in your keynote,which is to have those
professional and personal goalsthat you identified, that you
that are where you are now andwhere you hope to be.
So, if those are strong withinyou, you've got a stable set of
goals that you're trying toachieve within your role and
(14:01):
within your career, now and next.
Yeah, it means that you willhave that kind of sturdy footing
by which you'll say, in fact,given that was given that we are
focused on serving the children, as per this priority that we
agreed on, these are the stepsthat have to happen, yeah, and
these are the steps that canhappen in this way, with this
potential outcome.
(14:21):
Yeah, yeah, all yeah.
And we've all sat in thosesituations where we feel beyond
reasonable doubt, yeah, thatthis is the best course of
action.
Yeah, and then, if a boardfeels differently, yeah, you've
stated your case.
Yeah, you've made them awarewhat risks are on both sides,
and then it's a collectivedecision making.
(14:43):
But you've done everything youcan, yeah, to stand by what you
believe in but sometimes wecan't always get the ideal
leadership manifested in the waythat we hoped because of the
push and pull of differentstakeholders.
Parents might want one visionof what they want.
You've got your board or theowner of the school having a
(15:04):
different vision based on thenumber of dirhams in there in
the budget.
So I think being sensitive toyeah, yeah, how different
stakeholders are makingdecisions and the lens that each
stakeholder brings because anaccountant or cfo yeah, they're
going to be speaking the, yeah,the numbers language, so you
need a numbers.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
You do need a numbers story you need a number story
and the number story could bearound.
The outcomes for the youngpeople, okay and yes, outcomes
definitely.
But that young person is notgoing to get those outcomes
unless they a well, be theirteacher during the schools to
actually teach them, andactually they have.
(15:44):
There's that subtle nuance,isn't there around.
Yes, I can write an essay, butwhat else are you bringing to
the essay?
And I would even say for yourCFO, your accountants, your
owners of the schools?
They could have owned anything,they could be an accountant in
a bank, you could be anywhere.
So let's bring it back to whoare we here for?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Children at the serve I always joke and I've probably
said this on another video butyou're never as a principal,
you're a ceo, chief executive,so that actually you're a chief
repetition officer.
You're a cro a lot because youhave to, why, why we're here,
what we're here for.
And sometimes that repetitionmakes you the source of that
(16:29):
north star energy that peopleneed, because they know that
you're going to come over andsay what's best for the children
and they can almost predictthat you're going to come and
say that, yeah, that's reallyinteresting in terms of being
resilient but being brave.
I think there's a bit ofcourage that comes with being a
leader who knows what they knowbut being flexible in taking
(16:49):
everyone with them.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, I also think.
As leaders, I think it'simportant to know which battles
are worth fighting for whichones.
What's your red line in thesack?
Speaker 1 (17:01):
right.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
And just knowing that sometimes boards may make
decisions but, like you said,you've explained, you've stood
true to your morals, and thenthere's be like okay, and that
one, okay, I'm going to go outand I'll party line, and so on.
So, yeah, I think there'ssomething about that as well.
I think just there are somethat you may not win, but
(17:23):
there'll also be your red lines.
Just making sure Because I think, as a leader, the minute you'll
also be your red lines.
Yeah, just making sure.
Yeah, because I think, as aleader, the minute, you're
stepping over your red lines toooften.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, I think it's how it trends right.
When you're checking over timeor I'm not comfortable ethically
, my moral compass is spinning,yeah, oh my, my, there is.
That sense of this doesn't fitwith who I am as a human.
Exactly like I can't go tosleep at night feeling great,
yeah.
Or I can't look my daughter inthe eye and say I did the right
(17:53):
thing here, my husband orwhoever it is that you care for
that.
When you narrate that yourprofessional journey, you have
to say it out or write it downyeah, would that be the proudest
moment.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, if you can't, then I think and some people say
that Often people call us backand say I'm in a bit of a bind.
It's a real difficult situation, not sure whether to leave.
And then we have thatconversation your moral compass,
where is it going?
How much is it spinning?
And actually I've walked awayfrom two schools and I just knew
that actually it was not goodfor me.
(18:27):
And actually I've walked awayfrom two schools and I just knew
that actually it was not goodfor me and I just thought I
can't stay in a school whereit's just not working.
But that's courage, right, yes,and that's bravery.
And I think often for women wecarry that kind of because we
look at the statistics, right,we look at the statistics of how
many female head teachers andso on and so on.
(18:50):
We're afraid that if I leave,that, yeah, am I going to get
that?
And so that resilience, thatcourage, that love is all I just
think is really important.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, I also think the role after that role becomes
so stressful because if andthis has happened to me in my
career where I've moved on, yeah, and I then thought I can't
have a second move on after afirst, because then the common
denominator is me and then youfeel added pressure.
So I think, yes, we can putpressure on ourselves, but we
(19:20):
should also be as you said.
True, yeah, I'm a good person,I'm doing this for the right
reason.
Yeah, hopefully, that's true,I'm doing this right.
I am serving children, yeah,and there there are boards,
organizations, schools, yeah,advisory roles.
There's so much more that isn'tjust leading a school, that
where your vision, your passionyeah, can be recognized and come
(19:43):
to fruition in other ways thatstill impact, yeah, children,
that's going to be fun.
Heads, yeah, do you feel that?
Headship or retirement?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
yeah, yeah what would you say to that?
That's a really great question,because when I stepped back
from headship in the summer of2023 it really was I wanted a
gap year, I was a bit tired anddaughter off to uni and so on,
and I said, you know, I'll justtake a break, evelyn.
And I did have that worry ofbecause the further you are away
from headship, people thinkthat you don't know anything you
(20:14):
get rusty, you get rusty andbut you know what I've landed on
?
wisdom and I think the work thatI do now, whether that's UCL,
coaching, leadership, whateverit is, it's because I've got the
wisdom and the experience and Ipersonally, I didn't want to
(20:35):
step away, I didn't want toretire, I'm not ready to, and I
want and I realize you can makea difference.
Right, you can make adifference.
Just leaving the keynote justnow, I spoke with two people.
I've got these messages.
People just say, oh, you know,that really resonated with me.
I'm going to take that back tomy school.
That's impact, right,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
And so it's, and it's at scale it's at scale, that
leader is a leader with 3,000children, of maybe 150 or maybe
100 families, and that thatenergy and that goodness, that
unique amazingness, is filteringfrom you to not one school but
many schools from here.
Yeah, so there is life afterheadship, is what I say yeah,
(21:17):
absolutely, and that's part ofthe legacy as well, that if you
aspire to be ahead and there isa lot of pressure, I remember
seeing stepping into a meetingwith the board, stepping out and
having 254 emails within 70minutes and even if and then I
was calculating even if I spenda minute on each one, I still
(21:39):
need a huge amount of time overlike nearly four hours just to
go through the email just tofind out what people want from
me, so that and I call it thewashing machine school
leadership you know that spincycle when you put one load off
you're putting another one andyou're just constantly in that
washing machine, that almost webecome institutionalized by that
(22:00):
washing machine, that we thinkthere's nothing else but the
washing machine.
I'm a laundress, like I need togo, and then it's almost like
when someone comes to your dooryou're like, okay, what do they
need?
Is it colors or white?
Do you need 200 degrees or 100?
And on.
That's a really good analogy.
So that washing machine conceptI do want I would like to add
that to leaders that you don'talways have to put yourself
(22:24):
through that forever.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
No, you don't, you don't.
And I also think there'ssomething about knowing when to
stop right, just knowing thatyou've done a really good job
and actually your wisdom,everything that you've got, you
can take it to the next yeah, ornot grinding yourself into the
ground, yeah.
And that's when you need tostop, when you just know that.
(22:49):
Know what?
Because my girls lastly, I justsay that so I've got three
daughters, as I talk about, andmy friends would say, how are
the girls?
And my immediate response wouldbe, because my school was no
girl school I'd say, oh,cocktail, girls are great, we've
done this, we've done that, notown children.
And then it was like and so, asI was going through headship,
(23:11):
like nearly nine years, and Ijust thought there's a little
bit of love that is slightlywaning, and I thought now I'm
really thinking about my ownchildren growing up and so on.
So I think that's reallyimportant as well is knowing
when I've done a good job, I canmove on to something else.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, I'm smiling because my daughter was three
yesterday.
I was doing preparing for theconference actually, and it was
quite late and it was justbefore her bedtime and she was
saying mommy, can you stopbooping?
She means she has a laptop,stop booping, I need to say good
night to you.
And I was like, okay, that'swhen it's like, yeah, switch
(23:52):
mode, just stop, yeah, switchmodes, because those moments,
yeah, your children 100 preciouscritical time.
Critical, we use theprofessional language, just
golden, right, they can't getthem back.
Yeah, thank you so much talkingabout golden.
It's a lovely place to roundoff.
It's been a pleasure speakingto you and I really feel your
(24:12):
heart um in all you do, so thankyou for giving me a bit of that
today.
Thank you, my absolute pleasure.
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