September 30, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode Ashley O'Neil and Julie Cunningham discuss the book Troublemakers by Carla Shalaby as it relates to curiosity and agency. This book was part of the summer work in the Educator Institute, discussed in Episodes 1 and 2. In this episode they've each brought specific examples from the book and explore how these examples challenged or reframed their thinking. Throughout the podcast, the balance between classroom management and fostering authentic student engagement and self-expression is a central theme. They wrap up the episode by discussing some ways that teachers can sustain these types of practices in the classroom.
Read the book: Troublemakers
Intro Music: David Biedenbender
Outro Music: Leigh Robinson from Pixabay
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julie Cunningham (00:00):
Yeah. Okay, so where do you want to start with
(00:02):
curiosity agency.
Introduction (00:03):
Okay, now we're recording. So welcome to teach
wonder. Yes.Welcome to teachwonder, a podcast hosted by
Ashley O'Neil and JulieCunningham,
Ashley O'Neil (00:28):
yeah, I think for me, maybe we start with why we
are, why we're putting thesethings together, maybe from a
higher level perspective, bigand why we're choosing to talk
about troublemakers and maybegive a little context for
troublemakers. So this summerwith our educator Institute,
part of that time was, I guessyou could call it a book study.
It was pretty short book studybecause we only met three times,
(00:50):
but we did read a book together,which I think is a cool
practice. And the book we choseto read was troublemakers by
Carla Chalabi. And if you're notfamiliar with the book,
basically Carla's work was to gointo four elementary, early
elementary classrooms and dolike a whole study of them. She
went to their houses and talkedto their parents, she talked to
(01:12):
the teachers, she observed thekids, she talked to the kids.
She tried to get a really fullpicture, like a well rounded
picture, of what this child waslike in multiple settings, and
also what the perception of thischild was in multiple settings.
And a disclaimer, or like a lensthrough which Carla sees the
world is very, is very based inthe fact that children deserve
(01:36):
to be free, and that, I wouldsay, she is heavily driven by
the fact that children deserveautonomy and agency, and often
wrestles with how the structureof school just inherently comes
(01:58):
up against that in a way thatcan be tricky. Do you think
that's accurate?
Julie Cunningham (02:02):
I think that's accurate. And then additionally,
there's a sort of a canary in acoal mine reference. There's a
canary on the cover of the bookbeing set free from his cage.
And I think the other sort ofimplication is if these
children, if school isn'tworking for these examples,
these children that she gets toknow, then potentially it's not
(02:26):
working for other children, orpotentially it's the institution
itself that should change, notthe not the children that should
change. So I think that's theother sort of inherent message.
It, it was a hit with theteachers. And by hit, I don't
(02:47):
mean like they were agreeable toeverything that was in the book,
but it definitely generateddiscussion with the teachers
that we worked worked with thissummer in our professional
learning community, and so Ithink that discussion was
valuable, right, where peopleagree and disagree, because it
definitely hit home for people,
Ashley O'Neil (03:10):
yeah. And I think one of the reasons that we
picked this book is because ittakes a tricky topic or a
difficult topic, and comes at itfrom a very different place. And
one of the areas that I think isuncomfortable or maybe hard to
talk about is Carla is quitegracious and about everyone, but
(03:36):
is very also a matter of factabout the things that she sees
and about her observations, andobviously her color comes into
these things. And so there is ahuge disconnect with most of
these students, though I thinkmost of them are identified
because they may have beencoined as quote, unquote
troublemakers in the classroomfor various reasons. They don't
all present the same way, but Ithink that's the overarching
theme of these kids, and the waythat they are thought of at
(04:02):
home, and the way that they'remaybe their inherent personality
traits come out as strengths athome, but then kind of are a
challenge in the classroom. Is adiff is a difficult conversation
to have, because inherently, theplace that is home and the place
at a school have a lot ofdifferent rules and
opportunities in each of them,right? And so I think one of the
(04:22):
big challenges or conversationsthat come up, came up over and
over again, is this idea that ina classroom, you were caring for
a community of children, like abody of people, instead of
children as individuals. Like,yes, we're caring for kids as
individuals, but we're alsocaring for children as a
collective. And so I thinkthat's a theme that comes up for
(04:44):
me repeatedly, is just this ideaa lot of the teachers are
considering, like the collectiveof school and the collective of
their whole class, and the childas an individual, and obviously
as a parent, your lens is muchmore focused on that child as an
individual, or the child in thecontext. Text of a smaller
group, which is your family. Andso that was a place that we
(05:04):
found really rich conversations.
And so we're bringing that bookup today, because the theme, or
the themes that we're trying towrestle with here are three
curiosity, agency andsustainable practices, and how
all of those fit together,because we are thinking about
this through the lens of aneducator, but also recognizing
that there are some reallyinteresting lessons and points
that come up and how we viewchildren in this book. So we're
(05:27):
going to use the book kind of asa frame. We'll use some student
interactions and examples fromour own work, and that's kind of
the plan for the podcast today.
Yeah, perfect. So you want tostart with some examples from
troublemakers. You want to startwith laying out what we think
about we think about curiosityand agency. Just a quick
refresher for folks who maybehaven't heard our podcast
(05:47):
before.
Julie Cunningham (05:49):
Sure we can start with laying out I think
what we think about curiosityand agency. I would say
curiosity was really a word wefocused on a lot this summer
with the teachers in ourprofessional learning community
as well, in a couple ofdifferent ways. One, we did some
(06:10):
math and science activitiestogether as adults, not as
students, and I think we usedcuriosity as we investigated
those subject areas in thoseactivities. But then also we
talked about what would be ourideal classroom, what would we
observe in our ideal classroom?
And we used curiosity as kind ofa benchmark for that, like what
(06:33):
you know, being curious aboutwhat would our ideal classroom
look like and why, but then, howcould we build in curiosity if
we were when we developed thatobservation tool for others to
use as educators, so as preservice teachers and in service
teachers, I think if you listento any of our other podcasts,
(06:56):
agency is always A theme for us.
We work in an informal makerspace, and we focus a lot on how
to give students the most agencywhile they're in our space,
because they're often in ourspace for, oh, two to three
hours at a time, right? And thenwe may not, may or may not see
(07:18):
those students again. So it'sdifferent than someone who has a
formal classroom where they seethe students every day. So we've
put a lot of time and effortinto how can we give students
the most agency while they're inhere?
Ashley O'Neil (07:33):
Yeah, so, and like I said, I think I don't
think I want to add on to whatyou said. That all sounds like a
perfect encapsulation, and Ithink we'll get into sustainable
practices more. But just as ateaser for you, what we're
thinking about when it comes tosustainable practices is the
idea that the teacher is aperson as well, right? And if we
set up this kind of plan in ourhead for how we're going to do
(07:56):
something in a classroom, and itis, it is too rigorous, or asks
so much of an educator that theycan't realistically achieve that
every single day or in a givenday, that's not sustainable
either. And so whether it'smaking the teacher the kind of
like the focal point throughwhich everything has to run,
that's unsustainable if itrequires the teacher kind of be
(08:18):
in all these different locationsat the same time and manage all
these different things that'slikely unsustainable, right? So
it could be pace, it could bejust like expectations. And so
while we are constantly here,you know, as educators going,
how can we be a better versionof ourselves? How can I be a
better educator? We alsorecognize that there is a place
(08:39):
where we say, educators are alsopeople, and so we're not doing
anyone any favors if we don'tset up a system that someone
could see through for an entireyear without reaching burnout
and without reaching, you know,a point of frustration
themselves. Do you want to sharean example first, or don't you
go? You can go one of theexamples I was actually thinking
about. I don't have a pagenumber for you for myself, so
(09:04):
maybe if I get if I get ittogether, I will try to find a
page number for you. But there'sthis, oh, I do. It's page 132 So
on page 132 there's aconversation where, actually
that. So Carla spends some timein the classrooms, and she's
typing and she's kind of makingobservations. And obviously,
because she spends time withthese children, individually,
they form a relationship withher. And so in this scene or
(09:26):
this section, Carla sits down,and the little boy says, It's my
brother's birthday, and Carlaknows, and so she replies No,
but she recognizes that she'skind of short with him because
she doesn't want to be caughtchatting with him. And she
doesn't want to be caughtchatting with him, because she
knows that there will be aconsequence for him being off
task for being distracted withher. But she's wrestling with
(09:49):
this like internal idea, becauseshe knows that he has this need
to be authentically heard. Sheknows that he has this desire
for social connection. She knowsthat she has he has this like I.
Pretty genuine need to just liketo relate to someone who he has
developed a bond with in theclassroom. But he also
recognizes that in the contextof this classroom, it will be
(10:09):
viewed as non compliant behavioror being off task, or, you know,
distract distracting otherpeople. And so she kind of
reflects for a little bitherself on that tension that she
feels. And I think that's reallyinteresting, because I think
that oftentimes right like wecould say that there are
(10:32):
teachers in the land, educatorsin the world, who would totally
just view that as non compliantbehavior and not recognize that
legitimate need for a child, butmany of us, I think, do
recognize that that child has aneed to kind of talk or be seen
or have a connection and thenwrestle with the there's 23 kids
in my class. I can't do thiswith everyone. We need to get
(10:55):
through our science lesson, andthat's the tension, right? And
so maybe the outcome is thesame. Maybe the outcome is that
both that teacher who doesn'trecognize and respect that
child's agency and the teacherthat does, maybe they both end
up saying, hey, I need you tostop and move forward. But I do
think that the tension thatCarla felt is a tension that a
lot of teachers feel, which is,just like this child needs this
(11:17):
thing, I can't provide thisthing. I'm trying to do all of
these other content relatedthings. What do I do next? And
it makes me think about, I had aconversation with a classroom
teacher just last week wherethey were struggling with the
very same thing. They're like,you know, I have this individual
in my classroom who wants to sitand talk and share with me the
first five minutes of class, andthat's great, but I can't, like,
(11:39):
how do I do that, and how do Icut him off, or, like, loop him
back in and give him that doseof being seen and heard, but
also not have it take the 20minutes of my class when I only
see them for 60 minutes in aday, and what does that do for
the other kids? And it was areally genuine conversation. It
wasn't like a I don't care aboutthis child at all, but it was
like, How do I do this? And so Ithought it was interesting that
(12:01):
moment with Carla, like thetension between this is what I
know this child needs, and howdo I do this in a school?
Julie Cunningham (12:11):
And do you want to reference that back to
curiosity or agency, or neither?
Or yeah, I
Ashley O'Neil (12:15):
think I do. I do so agency as we've kind of
defined it, as this idea thatchildren need to be able to make
some choices and have some someauthentic decision making. And I
think part of that comes from wecan give them the authentic
choice, but if they're notauthentically able to interact
(12:38):
with us, that's kind of a onesided equation, right? So yes,
we can send kids out to dothings, but they also want an
authentic relationship withtheir peers and oftentimes with
their teacher in theirclassroom. And I think that, how
do we champion and encouragethose things? I think
Additionally, it is rare for usto see that agency and curiosity
(12:58):
fit into the neat content boxwe've laid out. So how often is
it that a child is like, Oh,we're doing long division today.
Funny enough, I'm fascinated bylong division. Here's my curious
thing that I have perfectlyrelated to the content you've
laid out today. Can I do thisthing? And then you can say
absolutely yes, because it alsomeets all the needs of my
classroom, and I can check thatoff in my lesson plans, right?
(13:20):
That doesn't happen. So we seekids want to exercise their
agency be curious in the waysthat they are genuine, genuinely
curious, and that is not alwaysfitting into the tidy box that
is our content strategies. Andso I guess for me, this example
is one of those places wherethis feels very real, right? You
see this child who isinteresting, is interested, is
(13:44):
interested in connection withyou, wants to exercise some of
their choice in talking andhaving a conversation about a
topic they're interested in.
That topic is not contentoriented, right? And but it is
them exercising their right tobe agentic and their curiosity.
So what do we do when we seethose those skills we want and
(14:05):
they're not applied in the rightway? Because I think that we so
often want them to be applied inthat content specific way. So
that's the tie in for me. Doesthat make sense? Makes sense?
Julie Cunningham (14:14):
Yeah, my examples are two different
students in the book, butthey're probably pretty similar
examples to one another. Theyboth deal with classroom
management and behaviors. And soZora is a, oh, I think she's a
second grader, first or secondgrader. The only reason that's
(14:36):
important is because she hadquite a reputation after her
first year in school, and so theteachers already have some
knowledge of her classroombehavior as she comes in. So
they've are, they've alreadyadmitted that. They've sort of
told themselves a story aboutthe expectation of what it's
going to be like to work withher. She regularly, you would
(14:58):
say, disrupts class in. That shedoesn't do what, exactly what
all the students have been askedto do. I don't she does things.
It doesn't appear that she doesthem maliciously.
Ashley O'Neil (15:09):
Or it's often like a like class clown. Let's
make the energy happier. Like,I'm exuberant, and I want to
share that joy with you. That'swhat it
Julie Cunningham (15:18):
feels. Or this is my take on the directions you
gave me even, like, yeah. So theone example I'm thinking of is
where she was told to decorate awriting folder, and there were
some pretty specific rules todecorating the folder. And
that's one of those exampleswhere I just want to say, why?
Like, why would you why? Why dothose? Why when she doesn't do
(15:39):
it exactly the way? It's notinappropriate what she does.
It's just not done the way thestudents were asked to do it.
But she does decorate herfolder. So isn't that a place in
which adults could just becurious about why she chose to
do it differently, like if, ifit wasn't, every single thing
had to fit my classroommanagement, my structure and the
(16:01):
teacher's basic Re and they'renot they're not bad teachers,
and they're not out to get Zora.
I think Zora is a handful, ifyou have 20 odd students in your
class, and she's sort of alwaysstands out, right? And she's
always high energy, and she'soften distracted, but what that
leads to is it leads to her namebeing said a lot in negative
(16:25):
situations, and then it leads tothat image in front of her
peers. So what if the adultswere just curious once in a
while as to what prompted her todo something differently, not
when it's not safe, or not, whenit's not absolutely necessary to
get through the content, but intimes of like, when you're
decorating a folder, like, whatif you just got curious about
(16:49):
why she did it differently? Andso that was my take on
curiosity. Like, there must besome window of time in a
classroom in which you couldjust step back and be curious
about what the child or childrenare doing, and just listen to
what's going on or watch what'sgoing on without stepping in.
That isn't like going to make orbreak the cut, the subject, the
(17:13):
content lesson, right?
Ashley O'Neil (17:16):
And it will take less time than I think we think
it will Right. Like, back to myexample, which I think is very
similar, right? Like this kindof this needing for
conversation, or needing to dosomething that's not related to
the task in the way that theteacher could maybe see
outright. But what would it looklike if the culture was such
that Carla could have said, hey,it's, you know, that child's
birthday, and knowing that theteacher would have walked over,
(17:39):
maybe taken a beat, listened,and then would have joined in to
say, oh my goodness, it's yourbrother's birthday. How exciting
Did you do something fun, happybirthday, so and so. And then
moved on, right? Like that couldhave taken 47 seconds, and would
have been a really great way tovalidate something he was
excited about. Right, develop alittle bit of relationship. Same
with Zora, right, asking thosequestions to figure out why, but
(18:02):
then you have to challenge yourown like, why are we doing this?
Why does this rule exist? Whyare we making rules about how we
decorate folders? Where did thatcome from and whose needs
Julie Cunningham (18:11):
are the teachers were saying we're doing
it so that later in life, theyunderstand there are rules. But,
I mean, come on, even as adults,we we bend every rule we think
we can bend to fit ourlifestyles, to fit our our daily
routines, whatever, right? Likethere's, I mean, yes, there are
rules as an adult, but also
Ashley O'Neil (18:32):
there's a need for self expression that doesn't
go away as by like our decoratedwater bottles and laptops,
right? Like that, that need forself expression isn't
necessarily extinguished, andthere are ways to give that
right and give credence to thatfor sure.
Julie Cunningham (18:48):
Yeah, and I don't know my that was roughly
in Zoras. I mean, Zoras chapterone, right? But that like that
was roughly in roughly page 35,to 40. That's the story about
the folder. But I mean, youcould find multiple examples of
Zora expressing herself in a waythat didn't fit the classroom
(19:11):
norms in the chapter one.
Ashley O'Neil (19:15):
So another example I have. I cheated a
little, because I kind of lookedat patterns that kept coming up
a little bit, because when Ifirst did this, I had a lot of
examples, and then I realized alot of them are saying the same
thing. And so a couple that Ithought of were things like just
the discrepancy with how a childis perceived at home in school,
(19:37):
and what that does to a childwhen we expect them to code
shift. And that's actuallybrought up by several of the
teachers who are like, well,this is what school is like, and
this they have to be aroundother people, right? And that's
in direct opposition to howthey're being raised at home.
And I know talking about howparents raise kids is very
contentious, but within thecontainer of this book, um, a
couple examples are Zora islike. Her self expression is
(19:58):
celebrated at home. By a familywho values self expression. The
house is colorful. It's veryartistic. She's encouraged to
decorate her room and becreative. And we see this as a
beautiful way that the familyrelates to each other. And so
then that is something that hasbeen built from birth, and then
when she gets to school, it'sdefinitely perceived as not just
(20:19):
like bad or negative or neutral,but it's perceived as like,
wrong, right, like you did thisthing wrong, and what message
does? Does that send to a child?
And then furthermore, there area couple other examples with
which the really important waysthat some of these parents are
connecting with their kids athome are when that translates to
school. There are messages sentabout what that means that has
bigger implications, right?
(20:43):
Like, it's not okay. Like, ifthat's how your family does
things, that's not right. And alot of those relate back to this
idea of, what are we preparingchildren for? A lot of the
teachers repeatedly talk aboutlike, this is what they need to
know later in life. How are theygoing to get a job? Like, this
is what life is like. And itrelates a lot back to
conformity. And to me, thatrelates to curiosity and agency,
(21:03):
in that both of those things aremessy. Being curious and messy,
we don't get to dictate whatkids get curious about, right?
That requires us following theirlead a little bit. And that's
kind of the opposite ofconforming. And so if we want
that kind of conforming culturein our classroom. What we are
(21:27):
seeking is a pretty passivelearning experience where
everyone's doing the same thing.
I'm telling you, you'relistening. I'm asking you're
doing, I'm showing you'rereplicating, right? Which is
tidy, which allows us to keep ontrack, which allows us to check
things off in boxes and say thatwe've done those things, but at
the same time, that is our paceand our kind of rhythm, and that
(21:48):
doesn't take into account any ofthese other things that are
going on for these children. Andfurthermore, for me, this book
made me think a lot about themessages that we send to kids
that are bigger than that,right? And we have this idea
like, well, we're preparing,preparing them for adulthood,
but like we said before, thereis a place in time for creative
expression, and that'simportant. We need kids who can
(22:09):
stand up and for what theybelieve in and talk about
things. We need people getexcited about things. And so
challenging if we don't getcurious about kids behavior, and
we're trying to extinguish itbecause it's not working for us
at school. And then I mean itwhen I say it's not working for
us at school. What messages doesthat send about things that they
(22:32):
do at home? And are wecomfortable with that? Does that
make sense?
Julie Cunningham (22:41):
And you took a over view to my next or a higher
view to my next example, becausemy next example is really fits
in with Zora and what you'vesaid so far, but it's much more
like tangible, right? Like muchmore of a microcosm of a
(23:03):
classroom. So Lucas this. Thisone really was hard for me, even
when we read it. Lucas is tryingto sit still on a reading on a
reading carpet, right with therest of his class, and decides
that he doesn't like the bookthat the teacher is reading. And
so Lucas gets up from thecarpet, from the reading area,
(23:27):
and goes back and doesn't hedoesn't make a scene, like he's
not being disruptive. But hegoes back to the classroom
bookshelf and gets a book toread that he wants to read. And
he again like he does itquietly. He opens the book. He
liked Mo Williams, so he go,opens the book, and he's reading
the book about the pigeon. Ialways forget the name of. It's
(23:51):
a hot dog, yes, so, and this isSo, this is in the second
chapter, the troublemakers andthe teacher doesn't like that,
right? Because all the otherkids are sitting on the carpet
listening to the book that'sbeing read. But I just like, if
you have to pick your battles ina school day, like, how about
just the kid is going to read abook, it's reading time, and the
(24:15):
kid is going to read a book. Imean, so it wasn't interested in
the book that you chose to read,is that the is that the bottom
line is that the objective, thegoal of the lesson, that
everybody has to be interestedin the book being read, or at
least sit quietly and appearthat they're interested. Again,
that idea of conformity. Or isit about this is reading time,
and he's reading, and he chosesomething that he is interested
(24:36):
in. And, man, we can't get somekids to read ever so like he's a
first grader willing to go backand pick a book that he's
interested in, read and do soquietly in the back of the
classroom, right? Like, does itreally matter? Like, as adults,
what if we just got curiousabout the fact that that's
really interesting, right? Heunderstood that it was reading
(24:57):
time. Why? Why? Why did he wantto choose a different book? And
maybe in the future, how can Iget him maybe it becomes more
important that we're readingsomething that's subject matter
specific, right? And maybe wecan come to some compromise over
which books he gets to read onhis own or and I know the other
argument would be, well, thenwhat if every kid does it well?
(25:20):
What if? What if it becomessilent reading time and every
kid is reading a book on theirown? What if only the kids were
interested in the book aresitting in the carpet reading,
and everybody else is reading abook of their own? Like, what
if, right? Like, what? Whatterrible thing is going to
happen if you give you as anadult, allow some curiosity to
the situation and say we'restill reading, it's a silent
(25:44):
reading time, and we're stillreading, or out loud reading
time, reading time, right? Well,what if I just see what had
happened, and I ask why? And I'mcurious, like, Is the world
really gonna come to an end?
When I
Ashley O'Neil (25:58):
think that's the thing? Like, I hear that a lot
from teachers, and I know I feelthat way a lot myself, like,
what if this thing happens? Thenwhat? And then I want to say,
well, then what? So let's sayyou would let him go read Mo
Williams, and let's say yourworst case scenario is that then
everybody wants to go read theirown book. Okay? And your point
of doing this whole group readaloud is that you needed to
(26:19):
teach main characters, or youneeded to teach conflict
resolution in a story. And howare you going to teach that if
they're all reading their ownbook, they're only first
graders. They don't have enoughcontext to do that on their own.
All legitimate concerns. Verymuch. So, so try it, and if the
worst thing happens, which iseveryone's reading their own
book, then what would it looklike if you brought everyone
(26:40):
back to the carpet and said,Hey, we tried this. And it's so
cool that you all want to readyour own books. You have so many
interesting things. I also needto share this information with
you, and the only way I canthink to do that is if we have
this time where we're allreading the same book. So what
do you think could happen? Andfor you know, their clever six
(27:01):
year old, they might have somegood ideas. Well, what if you
read it for us? And then we getto read our own book? Great. So
I'm gonna read this book foryou. It's gonna take about five
minutes. I'm just gonna ask forfive minutes of your time, and
then you all go get to read abook of your own right, like but
you've looped them in. You'vevalidated and honored that they
have an idea and that they'recurious about a thing, and even
(27:21):
then, in the worst casescenario, and even if you say,
we have to bring it back in alittle bit, because I can't have
all of you reading on this timeyou gave them the honor of
trying something right to seewhat would happen, my assumption
is that what's much more likelyto happen is that Lucas is going
to continue to continue to readhis book and is actually
(27:43):
listening to a lot of the thingsthat you're saying, and is going
to pick up on everything thatyou did at the carpet, right?
Because he's caught on alreadyand he's ready to move on.
That's my assumption, and thatmaybe one or two other kids are
going to do that as well, whichdoesn't seem like a worst case
scenario to me, but, like, I sobadly want to say, Okay, what
if? Okay, then what? Then? Whatdo we do? Right? Like, let's see
that. I don't think worst casescenario will happen, and if it
(28:06):
does, that could still be areally powerful moment with
students. And the
Julie Cunningham (28:13):
sort of implication in the story is that
Lucas was listening that hedidn't know what was going on in
the classroom, but also we oftenuse this excuse as teachers
about time and how much time wehave and how much time we don't
have in a day, right? Thisteacher did choose to call Lucas
(28:33):
out, and it did take some time,and it didn't set things up for
a better relationship movingforward, right? So the time in
which that took to battle overthat Mo Williams book and him
not sitting on the carpet and tocall him out was more time than
(28:54):
it could have been invested injust negotiating moving forward
when, you know, when do we readour own books? Or do we read our
own books? Or, I mean, it's beenmy experience that that kids
don't expect fair to be equal,that they are generally, if they
(29:14):
can understand or see a reason,okay, with not every, with
everybody not doing the samething at the same time,
Ashley O'Neil (29:23):
and I think a lot of when they're not a lot of
that comes from this culture ofmy needs aren't getting met, and
I see someone else's needs aregetting met. So I'm going to try
meeting my needs the way they'regetting their needs met to see
if that works right, but in aplace where I'm getting my own
version of my needs met, right?
Like, maybe I get to sit next tothe teacher during math because
(29:45):
that feels comforting to me, ormaybe my teacher knows that I
like to be at the back of theline because it makes me
nervous, just like I want you tosee everyone as I'm walking down
the hallway. If there are theselittle ways in which my needs
are getting met throughout theday, then I don't I can. Respect
and understand that. But again,that comes back to this bigger
school culture and the practicesthat the teacher lays out right
(30:05):
to say, Okay, everybody can'thave the same thing. This idea
of conformity is kind of a mythin my classroom. Maybe it's a
goal that I have, but it's notreally achievable. And so what
is a realistic way for me tohelp these kids be able to be
Edenic, to seek out things thatmake them feel curious and feel
like their needs are met, sothese behavioral pockets don't
(30:27):
kind of pop up for me, and Idon't go like bananas. In the
interim,
Julie Cunningham (30:34):
we've had a number of conversations,
probably on the podcast already,but definitely in our space,
also about what does it mean fora student to participate? What
does that what does that evenmean? Does that mean they came
in our space and they arewatching what their peers do.
Does it mean that they came inour space and participated in
(30:57):
something that we offered them?
Does it mean that they came inour space and participated in
something that wasn't exactlywhat we offered them? Does it
mean that they showed up topartner with a friend who was
working on something andcontributed that way? And so I
mean some of those things dependon the instructor at the time,
(31:19):
right? It's not really specificto our space, but you have to
decide, or what does listeninglook like? Does listening look
like? You're over at the LEGOwall and you're following along
with what the rest of your classis doing, but you're not sitting
still on the stool with youreyes face forward as a person
speaking. I mean, what you know,some of those things are things
(31:40):
that we've had to have a lot ofconversation about, and I'm
imagining that that would betrue of any teacher working with
students so and we found thatwhen students are we had a young
man this summer in camp who wasover on the LEGO wall for All of
the directions that were givenin the camp. And that was fine
(32:02):
with the instructor. That wasfine with the other kids in the
camp, and he knew exactly whatwas going on and fully
participated when it was histime to participate in the
activities, right? But he he waslistening to the directions, and
he was listening to theinstructor, and the instructor
was understanding of that,
Ashley O'Neil (32:26):
yeah, and when I think about things being
sustainable, it's things likethat. It's a reframe of your
year. A little bit has to startthere and and pausing and really
questioning why something'shappening, and maybe
intentionally not respondingright away. I don't know who
(32:46):
you're talking to or what I wasreading. I'm not gonna remember
the reference right now, but Isaw this thing that was
basically like, if it'shappening once, and like, it's
not an issue, and it's not, youknow, immediately dangerous.
There's nothing. There's nonothing bad can come from doing
nothing and intentionally justobserving. And then if and when
(33:07):
something becomes like a habitor a routine or habitual or
repeated issue, then you canaddress it, but you've had more
time to gather more data to seewhat's the pattern. When is this
going on? Is this in response tosomething? Right? To do a little
bit of analysis on your own. AndI think that's an important
Grace giving moment for teacherswho sometimes feel like we have
to nip something right away,that there's some, like,
(33:29):
somebody watching or something'sgonna happen. Like, what would
happen if I don't say anythingright away? Well, I'm gonna let
that slide for, like, right now,and then I'm gonna come back and
circle back, if it's stillhappening in 10 minutes, I'm
gonna, like, pause and thinkabout what that consequences of
that might be, or if it'shappening every day for a week,
I'm gonna think about it. Butjust recognizing that something
happening once does not like adisaster make can help us
(33:51):
remember to just like, wait aminute, you know.
Julie Cunningham (33:56):
And then I I think too one, one thing that
reminds me of is, I mean, we'realways wanting to gather data as
teachers, right? And a lot ofour roles and our jobs comes
down to assessment or having toreport out. And I've never
taught elementary, but I'vetaught middle and high school,
(34:17):
and I think there'sopportunities for listening to
student conversations, so beingcurious about the student's
curiosity and noting that foryourself as data points, as
evidence, and I used to carry aclipboard around in my classroom
just to make notations formyself, because sometimes it's
(34:40):
hard to put those things into a,a, b, c, d, category, but
there's a lot of qualitativedata on a lot of qualitative
evidence about student learningthat occurs when they're allowed
to just have conversations aboutthings with one another, about
things going on in theclassroom. And. I was reminded
(35:00):
of that yesterday I saw actuallyan Instagram post for somebody
that we follow from that we wentto Iceland with. So they're a
preschool educator, and theywere talking about just giving
students some materials toessentially play with. It
doesn't even really matter whatit was, right? But just
listening to the conversation,the interactions that went on
(35:21):
and the students in thatinstance, because their
preschoolers learning bothvocabulary ways to describe
things, in addition toexperiencing the things that
they're working with, right? Andbefore we say that only works at
preschool, I was reminded ofwhen I was teaching high school
(35:43):
every now and again, I didn'twant the students to know when
it was coming, necessarily, butI would give them the last X
number of minutes on a test totalk to one another. And you
know, before you say that theyall just cheated, it wasn't
true, like they mostly had allfinished their tests, had their
answers, they had the bestdialog back and forth,
(36:06):
conversationally, like arguingfor why one answer was right
over another. And as I walkedaround the room, like I knew
about more about their learningthan if they were to just put an
answer down on their tests, andI always encourage them not to
just change an answer, rightwithout having a discussion.
Because if you change an answerand you change it to be wrong,
(36:27):
well, so sorry, either youdidn't have a rich enough
discussion, or you weren't sosure of that answer that
somebody talked you out of it,right? Like, I don't want to
hear any complaining when youchange your answer to be wrong
after the after the fact. Butthose discussions were the
richest discussions. And itdoesn't have to be about a test.
(36:49):
It could be about any whatevermaterial that is engaging that
you set out that students arecurious about.
Ashley O'Neil (36:56):
It reminds me of one of the educators from our
educator institute this summerbrought up that they set aside,
like a 30 minute window, andthey teach middle school, and
they set aside they have a blankspot in their week for their
lesson plans, knowing that atsome point in the week their
students are going to need to,like side quest or do something
(37:17):
Middle School II and some sortof self determination exercise.
And maybe it's related tocontent. Maybe it's related to
the history of squirrels. Whoknows? Right? Like, it's very
middle school. And theirthinking was like that 30
minutes will happen, whether itcomes from me or not, but if I
can go, You know what? Yeah,let's do that for the next 30
(37:38):
minutes, they're like the winthat that gives me from building
relationships with them and thenjust knowing them, and we have
really interesting discussionsand dialog is worth it for this
playing of the long game. Andyou know, they have a supportive
administrator, which I think isreally helpful we need to
acknowledge, but for them tosay, I can bank on us having 30
(37:59):
minutes of wasted time, or I cancapitalize on those 30 minutes
of wasted time is a reallyinteresting way to reframe some
of that stuff when it comes toour attention with time. Any
other thoughts on sustainablepractices
Julie Cunningham (38:13):
or things?
Well, no, I think just, I thinkyou said earlier, my when I
think about sustainablepractices, I think about where
can you, especially as itapplies to classroom management
type things, because I feel likeif you're feeling really
contained by the subject matterthat you have to teach, where
can you let some of theclassroom management things go
(38:33):
right with So with a really bigoutput compared to what you're
having to give up and like, interms of building relationships
and in terms of your owncuriosity. I mean, how much more
fun is it during your school dayto be curious about things,
rather than to be so rule driventhat you can't even see your way
(38:56):
out of like, why someone can'tdesign their own folder the way
they want?
Ashley O'Neil (39:04):
Yeah, yeah. I think that's for me. And I think
the other thing for me isremembering you have a whole
entire year. And sometimes wetry to push things like creep
things, to say, Okay, should Ibe able to do these things? And
so if I say, I have a wholeentire year with these kids. And
so where we are right now interms of relationships, in terms
of me knowing them, them,understanding the rhythm of
school, us working together as acommunity. All of that's a work
(39:27):
in progress, and it will justbecome perfect right in time for
me to say goodbye. It helps mepace myself and prevent the like
quick responses to things, whichusually are rooted in
compliance, or me like wantingto bring everyone back on track.
And then I think, to couple withwhat you said, just taking the
beat to understand where thatchild is coming from, I always
(39:51):
learn something. And oftentimesit either resolves itself,
right, either they just neededthat five minutes and they're
back on track, or doingwhatever, and or you learn
something. And that will changethe way that you respond, which
is huge. And being transparentabout your constraints, I think,
is another one, right? So tosay, Hey, I get that this is
something you're interested indoing, here are the things that
(40:11):
I can't but John and reallyparing that down to the
essentials, right? Like, timemay be a thing for you, right?
Like, space in the classroom,storage, whatever it is here,
like, what do you think? Andcoming to them and you coming up
with a solution together, Ithink, is a huge way to honor
their agency, their sense ofcuriosity, without tamping that
down, and then also beingsustainable. Like, I can't
(40:34):
store, like, one of those forevery kid. So what do you think
we could do? IThis has been another episode of
teach wonder, and we're reallyglad you're here. If you like
this episode and are new to us,you can find more episodes and
never miss another one byfollowing our show, teach wonder
wherever you get your podcasts.
Yeah. Okay, so where do you want to start with
(00:02):
curiosity agency.
Introduction (00:03):
Okay, now we're recording. So welcome to teach
wonder. Yes.Welcome to teachwonder, a podcast hosted by
Ashley O'Neil and JulieCunningham,
Ashley O'Neil (00:28):
yeah, I think for me, maybe we start with why we
are, why we're putting thesethings together, maybe from a
higher level perspective, bigand why we're choosing to talk
about troublemakers and maybegive a little context for
troublemakers. So this summerwith our educator Institute,
part of that time was, I guessyou could call it a book study.
It was pretty short book studybecause we only met three times,
(00:50):
but we did read a book together,which I think is a cool
practice. And the book we choseto read was troublemakers by
Carla Chalabi. And if you're notfamiliar with the book,
basically Carla's work was to gointo four elementary, early
elementary classrooms and dolike a whole study of them. She
went to their houses and talkedto their parents, she talked to
(01:12):
the teachers, she observed thekids, she talked to the kids.
She tried to get a really fullpicture, like a well rounded
picture, of what this child waslike in multiple settings, and
also what the perception of thischild was in multiple settings.
And a disclaimer, or like a lensthrough which Carla sees the
world is very, is very based inthe fact that children deserve
(01:36):
to be free, and that, I wouldsay, she is heavily driven by
the fact that children deserveautonomy and agency, and often
wrestles with how the structureof school just inherently comes
(01:58):
up against that in a way thatcan be tricky. Do you think
that's accurate?
Julie Cunningham (02:02):
I think that's accurate. And then additionally,
there's a sort of a canary in acoal mine reference. There's a
canary on the cover of the bookbeing set free from his cage.
And I think the other sort ofimplication is if these
children, if school isn'tworking for these examples,
these children that she gets toknow, then potentially it's not
(02:26):
working for other children, orpotentially it's the institution
itself that should change, notthe not the children that should
change. So I think that's theother sort of inherent message.
It, it was a hit with theteachers. And by hit, I don't
(02:47):
mean like they were agreeable toeverything that was in the book,
but it definitely generateddiscussion with the teachers
that we worked worked with thissummer in our professional
learning community, and so Ithink that discussion was
valuable, right, where peopleagree and disagree, because it
definitely hit home for people,
Ashley O'Neil (03:10):
yeah. And I think one of the reasons that we
picked this book is because ittakes a tricky topic or a
difficult topic, and comes at itfrom a very different place. And
one of the areas that I think isuncomfortable or maybe hard to
talk about is Carla is quitegracious and about everyone, but
(03:36):
is very also a matter of factabout the things that she sees
and about her observations, andobviously her color comes into
these things. And so there is ahuge disconnect with most of
these students, though I thinkmost of them are identified
because they may have beencoined as quote, unquote
troublemakers in the classroomfor various reasons. They don't
all present the same way, but Ithink that's the overarching
theme of these kids, and the waythat they are thought of at
(04:02):
home, and the way that they'remaybe their inherent personality
traits come out as strengths athome, but then kind of are a
challenge in the classroom. Is adiff is a difficult conversation
to have, because inherently, theplace that is home and the place
at a school have a lot ofdifferent rules and
opportunities in each of them,right? And so I think one of the
(04:22):
big challenges or conversationsthat come up, came up over and
over again, is this idea that ina classroom, you were caring for
a community of children, like abody of people, instead of
children as individuals. Like,yes, we're caring for kids as
individuals, but we're alsocaring for children as a
collective. And so I thinkthat's a theme that comes up for
(04:44):
me repeatedly, is just this ideaa lot of the teachers are
considering, like the collectiveof school and the collective of
their whole class, and the childas an individual, and obviously
as a parent, your lens is muchmore focused on that child as an
individual, or the child in thecontext. Text of a smaller
group, which is your family. Andso that was a place that we
(05:04):
found really rich conversations.
And so we're bringing that bookup today, because the theme, or
the themes that we're trying towrestle with here are three
curiosity, agency andsustainable practices, and how
all of those fit together,because we are thinking about
this through the lens of aneducator, but also recognizing
that there are some reallyinteresting lessons and points
that come up and how we viewchildren in this book. So we're
(05:27):
going to use the book kind of asa frame. We'll use some student
interactions and examples fromour own work, and that's kind of
the plan for the podcast today.
Yeah, perfect. So you want tostart with some examples from
troublemakers. You want to startwith laying out what we think
about we think about curiosityand agency. Just a quick
refresher for folks who maybehaven't heard our podcast
(05:47):
before.
Julie Cunningham (05:49):
Sure we can start with laying out I think
what we think about curiosityand agency. I would say
curiosity was really a word wefocused on a lot this summer
with the teachers in ourprofessional learning community
as well, in a couple ofdifferent ways. One, we did some
(06:10):
math and science activitiestogether as adults, not as
students, and I think we usedcuriosity as we investigated
those subject areas in thoseactivities. But then also we
talked about what would be ourideal classroom, what would we
observe in our ideal classroom?
And we used curiosity as kind ofa benchmark for that, like what
(06:33):
you know, being curious aboutwhat would our ideal classroom
look like and why, but then, howcould we build in curiosity if
we were when we developed thatobservation tool for others to
use as educators, so as preservice teachers and in service
teachers, I think if you listento any of our other podcasts,
(06:56):
agency is always A theme for us.
We work in an informal makerspace, and we focus a lot on how
to give students the most agencywhile they're in our space,
because they're often in ourspace for, oh, two to three
hours at a time, right? And thenwe may not, may or may not see
(07:18):
those students again. So it'sdifferent than someone who has a
formal classroom where they seethe students every day. So we've
put a lot of time and effortinto how can we give students
the most agency while they're inhere?
Ashley O'Neil (07:33):
Yeah, so, and like I said, I think I don't
think I want to add on to whatyou said. That all sounds like a
perfect encapsulation, and Ithink we'll get into sustainable
practices more. But just as ateaser for you, what we're
thinking about when it comes tosustainable practices is the
idea that the teacher is aperson as well, right? And if we
set up this kind of plan in ourhead for how we're going to do
(07:56):
something in a classroom, and itis, it is too rigorous, or asks
so much of an educator that theycan't realistically achieve that
every single day or in a givenday, that's not sustainable
either. And so whether it'smaking the teacher the kind of
like the focal point throughwhich everything has to run,
that's unsustainable if itrequires the teacher kind of be
(08:18):
in all these different locationsat the same time and manage all
these different things that'slikely unsustainable, right? So
it could be pace, it could bejust like expectations. And so
while we are constantly here,you know, as educators going,
how can we be a better versionof ourselves? How can I be a
better educator? We alsorecognize that there is a place
(08:39):
where we say, educators are alsopeople, and so we're not doing
anyone any favors if we don'tset up a system that someone
could see through for an entireyear without reaching burnout
and without reaching, you know,a point of frustration
themselves. Do you want to sharean example first, or don't you
go? You can go one of theexamples I was actually thinking
about. I don't have a pagenumber for you for myself, so
(09:04):
maybe if I get if I get ittogether, I will try to find a
page number for you. But there'sthis, oh, I do. It's page 132 So
on page 132 there's aconversation where, actually
that. So Carla spends some timein the classrooms, and she's
typing and she's kind of makingobservations. And obviously,
because she spends time withthese children, individually,
they form a relationship withher. And so in this scene or
(09:26):
this section, Carla sits down,and the little boy says, It's my
brother's birthday, and Carlaknows, and so she replies No,
but she recognizes that she'skind of short with him because
she doesn't want to be caughtchatting with him. And she
doesn't want to be caughtchatting with him, because she
knows that there will be aconsequence for him being off
task for being distracted withher. But she's wrestling with
(09:49):
this like internal idea, becauseshe knows that he has this need
to be authentically heard. Sheknows that he has this desire
for social connection. She knowsthat she has he has this like I.
Pretty genuine need to just liketo relate to someone who he has
developed a bond with in theclassroom. But he also
recognizes that in the contextof this classroom, it will be
(10:09):
viewed as non compliant behavioror being off task, or, you know,
distract distracting otherpeople. And so she kind of
reflects for a little bitherself on that tension that she
feels. And I think that's reallyinteresting, because I think
that oftentimes right like wecould say that there are
(10:32):
teachers in the land, educatorsin the world, who would totally
just view that as non compliantbehavior and not recognize that
legitimate need for a child, butmany of us, I think, do
recognize that that child has aneed to kind of talk or be seen
or have a connection and thenwrestle with the there's 23 kids
in my class. I can't do thiswith everyone. We need to get
(10:55):
through our science lesson, andthat's the tension, right? And
so maybe the outcome is thesame. Maybe the outcome is that
both that teacher who doesn'trecognize and respect that
child's agency and the teacherthat does, maybe they both end
up saying, hey, I need you tostop and move forward. But I do
think that the tension thatCarla felt is a tension that a
lot of teachers feel, which is,just like this child needs this
(11:17):
thing, I can't provide thisthing. I'm trying to do all of
these other content relatedthings. What do I do next? And
it makes me think about, I had aconversation with a classroom
teacher just last week wherethey were struggling with the
very same thing. They're like,you know, I have this individual
in my classroom who wants to sitand talk and share with me the
first five minutes of class, andthat's great, but I can't, like,
(11:39):
how do I do that, and how do Icut him off, or, like, loop him
back in and give him that doseof being seen and heard, but
also not have it take the 20minutes of my class when I only
see them for 60 minutes in aday, and what does that do for
the other kids? And it was areally genuine conversation. It
wasn't like a I don't care aboutthis child at all, but it was
like, How do I do this? And so Ithought it was interesting that
(12:01):
moment with Carla, like thetension between this is what I
know this child needs, and howdo I do this in a school?
Julie Cunningham (12:11):
And do you want to reference that back to
curiosity or agency, or neither?
Or yeah, I
Ashley O'Neil (12:15):
think I do. I do so agency as we've kind of
defined it, as this idea thatchildren need to be able to make
some choices and have some someauthentic decision making. And I
think part of that comes from wecan give them the authentic
choice, but if they're notauthentically able to interact
(12:38):
with us, that's kind of a onesided equation, right? So yes,
we can send kids out to dothings, but they also want an
authentic relationship withtheir peers and oftentimes with
their teacher in theirclassroom. And I think that, how
do we champion and encouragethose things? I think
Additionally, it is rare for usto see that agency and curiosity
(12:58):
fit into the neat content boxwe've laid out. So how often is
it that a child is like, Oh,we're doing long division today.
Funny enough, I'm fascinated bylong division. Here's my curious
thing that I have perfectlyrelated to the content you've
laid out today. Can I do thisthing? And then you can say
absolutely yes, because it alsomeets all the needs of my
classroom, and I can check thatoff in my lesson plans, right?
(13:20):
That doesn't happen. So we seekids want to exercise their
agency be curious in the waysthat they are genuine, genuinely
curious, and that is not alwaysfitting into the tidy box that
is our content strategies. Andso I guess for me, this example
is one of those places wherethis feels very real, right? You
see this child who isinteresting, is interested, is
(13:44):
interested in connection withyou, wants to exercise some of
their choice in talking andhaving a conversation about a
topic they're interested in.
That topic is not contentoriented, right? And but it is
them exercising their right tobe agentic and their curiosity.
So what do we do when we seethose those skills we want and
(14:05):
they're not applied in the rightway? Because I think that we so
often want them to be applied inthat content specific way. So
that's the tie in for me. Doesthat make sense? Makes sense?
Julie Cunningham (14:14):
Yeah, my examples are two different
students in the book, butthey're probably pretty similar
examples to one another. Theyboth deal with classroom
management and behaviors. And soZora is a, oh, I think she's a
second grader, first or secondgrader. The only reason that's
(14:36):
important is because she hadquite a reputation after her
first year in school, and so theteachers already have some
knowledge of her classroombehavior as she comes in. So
they've are, they've alreadyadmitted that. They've sort of
told themselves a story aboutthe expectation of what it's
going to be like to work withher. She regularly, you would
(14:58):
say, disrupts class in. That shedoesn't do what, exactly what
all the students have been askedto do. I don't she does things.
It doesn't appear that she doesthem maliciously.
Ashley O'Neil (15:09):
Or it's often like a like class clown. Let's
make the energy happier. Like,I'm exuberant, and I want to
share that joy with you. That'swhat it
Julie Cunningham (15:18):
feels. Or this is my take on the directions you
gave me even, like, yeah. So theone example I'm thinking of is
where she was told to decorate awriting folder, and there were
some pretty specific rules todecorating the folder. And
that's one of those exampleswhere I just want to say, why?
Like, why would you why? Why dothose? Why when she doesn't do
(15:39):
it exactly the way? It's notinappropriate what she does.
It's just not done the way thestudents were asked to do it.
But she does decorate herfolder. So isn't that a place in
which adults could just becurious about why she chose to
do it differently, like if, ifit wasn't, every single thing
had to fit my classroommanagement, my structure and the
(16:01):
teacher's basic Re and they'renot they're not bad teachers,
and they're not out to get Zora.
I think Zora is a handful, ifyou have 20 odd students in your
class, and she's sort of alwaysstands out, right? And she's
always high energy, and she'soften distracted, but what that
leads to is it leads to her namebeing said a lot in negative
(16:25):
situations, and then it leads tothat image in front of her
peers. So what if the adultswere just curious once in a
while as to what prompted her todo something differently, not
when it's not safe, or not, whenit's not absolutely necessary to
get through the content, but intimes of like, when you're
decorating a folder, like, whatif you just got curious about
(16:49):
why she did it differently? Andso that was my take on
curiosity. Like, there must besome window of time in a
classroom in which you couldjust step back and be curious
about what the child or childrenare doing, and just listen to
what's going on or watch what'sgoing on without stepping in.
That isn't like going to make orbreak the cut, the subject, the
(17:13):
content lesson, right?
Ashley O'Neil (17:16):
And it will take less time than I think we think
it will Right. Like, back to myexample, which I think is very
similar, right? Like this kindof this needing for
conversation, or needing to dosomething that's not related to
the task in the way that theteacher could maybe see
outright. But what would it looklike if the culture was such
that Carla could have said, hey,it's, you know, that child's
birthday, and knowing that theteacher would have walked over,
(17:39):
maybe taken a beat, listened,and then would have joined in to
say, oh my goodness, it's yourbrother's birthday. How exciting
Did you do something fun, happybirthday, so and so. And then
moved on, right? Like that couldhave taken 47 seconds, and would
have been a really great way tovalidate something he was
excited about. Right, develop alittle bit of relationship. Same
with Zora, right, asking thosequestions to figure out why, but
(18:02):
then you have to challenge yourown like, why are we doing this?
Why does this rule exist? Whyare we making rules about how we
decorate folders? Where did thatcome from and whose needs
Julie Cunningham (18:11):
are the teachers were saying we're doing
it so that later in life, theyunderstand there are rules. But,
I mean, come on, even as adults,we we bend every rule we think
we can bend to fit ourlifestyles, to fit our our daily
routines, whatever, right? Likethere's, I mean, yes, there are
rules as an adult, but also
Ashley O'Neil (18:32):
there's a need for self expression that doesn't
go away as by like our decoratedwater bottles and laptops,
right? Like that, that need forself expression isn't
necessarily extinguished, andthere are ways to give that
right and give credence to thatfor sure.
Julie Cunningham (18:48):
Yeah, and I don't know my that was roughly
in Zoras. I mean, Zoras chapterone, right? But that like that
was roughly in roughly page 35,to 40. That's the story about
the folder. But I mean, youcould find multiple examples of
Zora expressing herself in a waythat didn't fit the classroom
(19:11):
norms in the chapter one.
Ashley O'Neil (19:15):
So another example I have. I cheated a
little, because I kind of lookedat patterns that kept coming up
a little bit, because when Ifirst did this, I had a lot of
examples, and then I realized alot of them are saying the same
thing. And so a couple that Ithought of were things like just
the discrepancy with how a childis perceived at home in school,
(19:37):
and what that does to a childwhen we expect them to code
shift. And that's actuallybrought up by several of the
teachers who are like, well,this is what school is like, and
this they have to be aroundother people, right? And that's
in direct opposition to howthey're being raised at home.
And I know talking about howparents raise kids is very
contentious, but within thecontainer of this book, um, a
couple examples are Zora islike. Her self expression is
(19:58):
celebrated at home. By a familywho values self expression. The
house is colorful. It's veryartistic. She's encouraged to
decorate her room and becreative. And we see this as a
beautiful way that the familyrelates to each other. And so
then that is something that hasbeen built from birth, and then
when she gets to school, it'sdefinitely perceived as not just
(20:19):
like bad or negative or neutral,but it's perceived as like,
wrong, right, like you did thisthing wrong, and what message
does? Does that send to a child?
And then furthermore, there area couple other examples with
which the really important waysthat some of these parents are
connecting with their kids athome are when that translates to
school. There are messages sentabout what that means that has
bigger implications, right?
(20:43):
Like, it's not okay. Like, ifthat's how your family does
things, that's not right. And alot of those relate back to this
idea of, what are we preparingchildren for? A lot of the
teachers repeatedly talk aboutlike, this is what they need to
know later in life. How are theygoing to get a job? Like, this
is what life is like. And itrelates a lot back to
conformity. And to me, thatrelates to curiosity and agency,
(21:03):
in that both of those things aremessy. Being curious and messy,
we don't get to dictate whatkids get curious about, right?
That requires us following theirlead a little bit. And that's
kind of the opposite ofconforming. And so if we want
that kind of conforming culturein our classroom. What we are
(21:27):
seeking is a pretty passivelearning experience where
everyone's doing the same thing.
I'm telling you, you'relistening. I'm asking you're
doing, I'm showing you'rereplicating, right? Which is
tidy, which allows us to keep ontrack, which allows us to check
things off in boxes and say thatwe've done those things, but at
the same time, that is our paceand our kind of rhythm, and that
(21:48):
doesn't take into account any ofthese other things that are
going on for these children. Andfurthermore, for me, this book
made me think a lot about themessages that we send to kids
that are bigger than that,right? And we have this idea
like, well, we're preparing,preparing them for adulthood,
but like we said before, thereis a place in time for creative
expression, and that'simportant. We need kids who can
(22:09):
stand up and for what theybelieve in and talk about
things. We need people getexcited about things. And so
challenging if we don't getcurious about kids behavior, and
we're trying to extinguish itbecause it's not working for us
at school. And then I mean itwhen I say it's not working for
us at school. What messages doesthat send about things that they
(22:32):
do at home? And are wecomfortable with that? Does that
make sense?
Julie Cunningham (22:41):
And you took a over view to my next or a higher
view to my next example, becausemy next example is really fits
in with Zora and what you'vesaid so far, but it's much more
like tangible, right? Like muchmore of a microcosm of a
(23:03):
classroom. So Lucas this. Thisone really was hard for me, even
when we read it. Lucas is tryingto sit still on a reading on a
reading carpet, right with therest of his class, and decides
that he doesn't like the bookthat the teacher is reading. And
so Lucas gets up from thecarpet, from the reading area,
(23:27):
and goes back and doesn't hedoesn't make a scene, like he's
not being disruptive. But hegoes back to the classroom
bookshelf and gets a book toread that he wants to read. And
he again like he does itquietly. He opens the book. He
liked Mo Williams, so he go,opens the book, and he's reading
the book about the pigeon. Ialways forget the name of. It's
(23:51):
a hot dog, yes, so, and this isSo, this is in the second
chapter, the troublemakers andthe teacher doesn't like that,
right? Because all the otherkids are sitting on the carpet
listening to the book that'sbeing read. But I just like, if
you have to pick your battles ina school day, like, how about
just the kid is going to read abook, it's reading time, and the
(24:15):
kid is going to read a book. Imean, so it wasn't interested in
the book that you chose to read,is that the is that the bottom
line is that the objective, thegoal of the lesson, that
everybody has to be interestedin the book being read, or at
least sit quietly and appearthat they're interested. Again,
that idea of conformity. Or isit about this is reading time,
and he's reading, and he chosesomething that he is interested
(24:36):
in. And, man, we can't get somekids to read ever so like he's a
first grader willing to go backand pick a book that he's
interested in, read and do soquietly in the back of the
classroom, right? Like, does itreally matter? Like, as adults,
what if we just got curiousabout the fact that that's
really interesting, right? Heunderstood that it was reading
(24:57):
time. Why? Why? Why did he wantto choose a different book? And
maybe in the future, how can Iget him maybe it becomes more
important that we're readingsomething that's subject matter
specific, right? And maybe wecan come to some compromise over
which books he gets to read onhis own or and I know the other
argument would be, well, thenwhat if every kid does it well?
(25:20):
What if? What if it becomessilent reading time and every
kid is reading a book on theirown? What if only the kids were
interested in the book aresitting in the carpet reading,
and everybody else is reading abook of their own? Like, what
if, right? Like, what? Whatterrible thing is going to
happen if you give you as anadult, allow some curiosity to
the situation and say we'restill reading, it's a silent
(25:44):
reading time, and we're stillreading, or out loud reading
time, reading time, right? Well,what if I just see what had
happened, and I ask why? And I'mcurious, like, Is the world
really gonna come to an end?
When I
Ashley O'Neil (25:58):
think that's the thing? Like, I hear that a lot
from teachers, and I know I feelthat way a lot myself, like,
what if this thing happens? Thenwhat? And then I want to say,
well, then what? So let's sayyou would let him go read Mo
Williams, and let's say yourworst case scenario is that then
everybody wants to go read theirown book. Okay? And your point
of doing this whole group readaloud is that you needed to
(26:19):
teach main characters, or youneeded to teach conflict
resolution in a story. And howare you going to teach that if
they're all reading their ownbook, they're only first
graders. They don't have enoughcontext to do that on their own.
All legitimate concerns. Verymuch. So, so try it, and if the
worst thing happens, which iseveryone's reading their own
book, then what would it looklike if you brought everyone
(26:40):
back to the carpet and said,Hey, we tried this. And it's so
cool that you all want to readyour own books. You have so many
interesting things. I also needto share this information with
you, and the only way I canthink to do that is if we have
this time where we're allreading the same book. So what
do you think could happen? Andfor you know, their clever six
(27:01):
year old, they might have somegood ideas. Well, what if you
read it for us? And then we getto read our own book? Great. So
I'm gonna read this book foryou. It's gonna take about five
minutes. I'm just gonna ask forfive minutes of your time, and
then you all go get to read abook of your own right, like but
you've looped them in. You'vevalidated and honored that they
have an idea and that they'recurious about a thing, and even
(27:21):
then, in the worst casescenario, and even if you say,
we have to bring it back in alittle bit, because I can't have
all of you reading on this timeyou gave them the honor of
trying something right to seewhat would happen, my assumption
is that what's much more likelyto happen is that Lucas is going
to continue to continue to readhis book and is actually
(27:43):
listening to a lot of the thingsthat you're saying, and is going
to pick up on everything thatyou did at the carpet, right?
Because he's caught on alreadyand he's ready to move on.
That's my assumption, and thatmaybe one or two other kids are
going to do that as well, whichdoesn't seem like a worst case
scenario to me, but, like, I sobadly want to say, Okay, what
if? Okay, then what? Then? Whatdo we do? Right? Like, let's see
that. I don't think worst casescenario will happen, and if it
(28:06):
does, that could still be areally powerful moment with
students. And the
Julie Cunningham (28:13):
sort of implication in the story is that
Lucas was listening that hedidn't know what was going on in
the classroom, but also we oftenuse this excuse as teachers
about time and how much time wehave and how much time we don't
have in a day, right? Thisteacher did choose to call Lucas
(28:33):
out, and it did take some time,and it didn't set things up for
a better relationship movingforward, right? So the time in
which that took to battle overthat Mo Williams book and him
not sitting on the carpet and tocall him out was more time than
(28:54):
it could have been invested injust negotiating moving forward
when, you know, when do we readour own books? Or do we read our
own books? Or, I mean, it's beenmy experience that that kids
don't expect fair to be equal,that they are generally, if they
(29:14):
can understand or see a reason,okay, with not every, with
everybody not doing the samething at the same time,
Ashley O'Neil (29:23):
and I think a lot of when they're not a lot of
that comes from this culture ofmy needs aren't getting met, and
I see someone else's needs aregetting met. So I'm going to try
meeting my needs the way they'regetting their needs met to see
if that works right, but in aplace where I'm getting my own
version of my needs met, right?
Like, maybe I get to sit next tothe teacher during math because
(29:45):
that feels comforting to me, ormaybe my teacher knows that I
like to be at the back of theline because it makes me
nervous, just like I want you tosee everyone as I'm walking down
the hallway. If there are theselittle ways in which my needs
are getting met throughout theday, then I don't I can. Respect
and understand that. But again,that comes back to this bigger
school culture and the practicesthat the teacher lays out right
(30:05):
to say, Okay, everybody can'thave the same thing. This idea
of conformity is kind of a mythin my classroom. Maybe it's a
goal that I have, but it's notreally achievable. And so what
is a realistic way for me tohelp these kids be able to be
Edenic, to seek out things thatmake them feel curious and feel
like their needs are met, sothese behavioral pockets don't
(30:27):
kind of pop up for me, and Idon't go like bananas. In the
interim,
Julie Cunningham (30:34):
we've had a number of conversations,
probably on the podcast already,but definitely in our space,
also about what does it mean fora student to participate? What
does that what does that evenmean? Does that mean they came
in our space and they arewatching what their peers do.
Does it mean that they came inour space and participated in
(30:57):
something that we offered them?
Does it mean that they came inour space and participated in
something that wasn't exactlywhat we offered them? Does it
mean that they showed up topartner with a friend who was
working on something andcontributed that way? And so I
mean some of those things dependon the instructor at the time,
(31:19):
right? It's not really specificto our space, but you have to
decide, or what does listeninglook like? Does listening look
like? You're over at the LEGOwall and you're following along
with what the rest of your classis doing, but you're not sitting
still on the stool with youreyes face forward as a person
speaking. I mean, what you know,some of those things are things
(31:40):
that we've had to have a lot ofconversation about, and I'm
imagining that that would betrue of any teacher working with
students so and we found thatwhen students are we had a young
man this summer in camp who wasover on the LEGO wall for All of
the directions that were givenin the camp. And that was fine
(32:02):
with the instructor. That wasfine with the other kids in the
camp, and he knew exactly whatwas going on and fully
participated when it was histime to participate in the
activities, right? But he he waslistening to the directions, and
he was listening to theinstructor, and the instructor
was understanding of that,
Ashley O'Neil (32:26):
yeah, and when I think about things being
sustainable, it's things likethat. It's a reframe of your
year. A little bit has to startthere and and pausing and really
questioning why something'shappening, and maybe
intentionally not respondingright away. I don't know who
(32:46):
you're talking to or what I wasreading. I'm not gonna remember
the reference right now, but Isaw this thing that was
basically like, if it'shappening once, and like, it's
not an issue, and it's not, youknow, immediately dangerous.
There's nothing. There's nonothing bad can come from doing
nothing and intentionally justobserving. And then if and when
(33:07):
something becomes like a habitor a routine or habitual or
repeated issue, then you canaddress it, but you've had more
time to gather more data to seewhat's the pattern. When is this
going on? Is this in response tosomething? Right? To do a little
bit of analysis on your own. AndI think that's an important
Grace giving moment for teacherswho sometimes feel like we have
to nip something right away,that there's some, like,
(33:29):
somebody watching or something'sgonna happen. Like, what would
happen if I don't say anythingright away? Well, I'm gonna let
that slide for, like, right now,and then I'm gonna come back and
circle back, if it's stillhappening in 10 minutes, I'm
gonna, like, pause and thinkabout what that consequences of
that might be, or if it'shappening every day for a week,
I'm gonna think about it. Butjust recognizing that something
happening once does not like adisaster make can help us
(33:51):
remember to just like, wait aminute, you know.
Julie Cunningham (33:56):
And then I I think too one, one thing that
reminds me of is, I mean, we'realways wanting to gather data as
teachers, right? And a lot ofour roles and our jobs comes
down to assessment or having toreport out. And I've never
taught elementary, but I'vetaught middle and high school,
(34:17):
and I think there'sopportunities for listening to
student conversations, so beingcurious about the student's
curiosity and noting that foryourself as data points, as
evidence, and I used to carry aclipboard around in my classroom
just to make notations formyself, because sometimes it's
(34:40):
hard to put those things into a,a, b, c, d, category, but
there's a lot of qualitativedata on a lot of qualitative
evidence about student learningthat occurs when they're allowed
to just have conversations aboutthings with one another, about
things going on in theclassroom. And. I was reminded
(35:00):
of that yesterday I saw actuallyan Instagram post for somebody
that we follow from that we wentto Iceland with. So they're a
preschool educator, and theywere talking about just giving
students some materials toessentially play with. It
doesn't even really matter whatit was, right? But just
listening to the conversation,the interactions that went on
(35:21):
and the students in thatinstance, because their
preschoolers learning bothvocabulary ways to describe
things, in addition toexperiencing the things that
they're working with, right? Andbefore we say that only works at
preschool, I was reminded ofwhen I was teaching high school
(35:43):
every now and again, I didn'twant the students to know when
it was coming, necessarily, butI would give them the last X
number of minutes on a test totalk to one another. And you
know, before you say that theyall just cheated, it wasn't
true, like they mostly had allfinished their tests, had their
answers, they had the bestdialog back and forth,
(36:06):
conversationally, like arguingfor why one answer was right
over another. And as I walkedaround the room, like I knew
about more about their learningthan if they were to just put an
answer down on their tests, andI always encourage them not to
just change an answer, rightwithout having a discussion.
Because if you change an answerand you change it to be wrong,
(36:27):
well, so sorry, either youdidn't have a rich enough
discussion, or you weren't sosure of that answer that
somebody talked you out of it,right? Like, I don't want to
hear any complaining when youchange your answer to be wrong
after the after the fact. Butthose discussions were the
richest discussions. And itdoesn't have to be about a test.
(36:49):
It could be about any whatevermaterial that is engaging that
you set out that students arecurious about.
Ashley O'Neil (36:56):
It reminds me of one of the educators from our
educator institute this summerbrought up that they set aside,
like a 30 minute window, andthey teach middle school, and
they set aside they have a blankspot in their week for their
lesson plans, knowing that atsome point in the week their
students are going to need to,like side quest or do something
(37:17):
Middle School II and some sortof self determination exercise.
And maybe it's related tocontent. Maybe it's related to
the history of squirrels. Whoknows? Right? Like, it's very
middle school. And theirthinking was like that 30
minutes will happen, whether itcomes from me or not, but if I
can go, You know what? Yeah,let's do that for the next 30
(37:38):
minutes, they're like the winthat that gives me from building
relationships with them and thenjust knowing them, and we have
really interesting discussionsand dialog is worth it for this
playing of the long game. Andyou know, they have a supportive
administrator, which I think isreally helpful we need to
acknowledge, but for them tosay, I can bank on us having 30
(37:59):
minutes of wasted time, or I cancapitalize on those 30 minutes
of wasted time is a reallyinteresting way to reframe some
of that stuff when it comes toour attention with time. Any
other thoughts on sustainablepractices
Julie Cunningham (38:13):
or things?
Well, no, I think just, I thinkyou said earlier, my when I
think about sustainablepractices, I think about where
can you, especially as itapplies to classroom management
type things, because I feel likeif you're feeling really
contained by the subject matterthat you have to teach, where
can you let some of theclassroom management things go
(38:33):
right with So with a really bigoutput compared to what you're
having to give up and like, interms of building relationships
and in terms of your owncuriosity. I mean, how much more
fun is it during your school dayto be curious about things,
rather than to be so rule driventhat you can't even see your way
(38:56):
out of like, why someone can'tdesign their own folder the way
they want?
Ashley O'Neil (39:04):
Yeah, yeah. I think that's for me. And I think
the other thing for me isremembering you have a whole
entire year. And sometimes wetry to push things like creep
things, to say, Okay, should Ibe able to do these things? And
so if I say, I have a wholeentire year with these kids. And
so where we are right now interms of relationships, in terms
of me knowing them, them,understanding the rhythm of
school, us working together as acommunity. All of that's a work
(39:27):
in progress, and it will justbecome perfect right in time for
me to say goodbye. It helps mepace myself and prevent the like
quick responses to things, whichusually are rooted in
compliance, or me like wantingto bring everyone back on track.
And then I think, to couple withwhat you said, just taking the
beat to understand where thatchild is coming from, I always
(39:51):
learn something. And oftentimesit either resolves itself,
right, either they just neededthat five minutes and they're
back on track, or doingwhatever, and or you learn
something. And that will changethe way that you respond, which
is huge. And being transparentabout your constraints, I think,
is another one, right? So tosay, Hey, I get that this is
something you're interested indoing, here are the things that
(40:11):
I can't but John and reallyparing that down to the
essentials, right? Like, timemay be a thing for you, right?
Like, space in the classroom,storage, whatever it is here,
like, what do you think? Andcoming to them and you coming up
with a solution together, Ithink, is a huge way to honor
their agency, their sense ofcuriosity, without tamping that
down, and then also beingsustainable. Like, I can't
(40:34):
store, like, one of those forevery kid. So what do you think
we could do? IThis has been another episode of
teach wonder, and we're reallyglad you're here. If you like
this episode and are new to us,you can find more episodes and
never miss another one byfollowing our show, teach wonder
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