October 7, 2024 • 27 mins
This week we are resharing episodes recorded last fall. Julie and I are heading to Iceland this week with Dr. Tracy Donahue. We thought that resharing these episodes was the perfect way for us to reintroduce Tracy and her work to you all. During a season that is all about agency- Tracy’s work considers this all through the lens of play. As an early childhood educator not early childhood education faculty member, we first partners with Tracy at this intersection of play and agency. If you're interested in what we're up to in Iceland, this would be the perfect week to follow us on social media. We'll be sharing updates in stories and posts.
About the episode: Our second episode with Tracy Donohue. In this episode, we further our discussion on play and it's integral role in development and it's place in schools. This is a continuation of our discussion from a previous episode- we recommend you start your listening journey there.
Intro Music: David Biedenbender
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley O'Neil (00:02):
US this week, we're re sharing episodes that
we recorded last fall. Julie andI are headed to Iceland this
weekend with Dr Tracy Donohue,and we thought that re sharing
these conversations with her wasthe perfect way for us to
reintroduce her work to all ofyou during a season that we're
talking about agency. Tracy'swork considers this through the
lens of play. As an earlychildhood educator and now an
(00:25):
early childhood educationfaculty member, we first
partnered with Tracy at thisintersection between play and
agency. We'll be back in Octoberwith some really exciting
conversations about the rolethat competence has to play with
agency. But until then, enjoythis episode with Tracy,
Tracy Donohue (00:42):
play is where it presents itself. Is an
opportunity for kids to learn tofail, and that's where my
students, they've never beentaught. And this is a K 12
thing, that failing is okay.
They just want to be told how todo it and do it right and get it
done. And so, so I try to modelfailing. I try to talk through
those opportunities. Okay,
Introduction (01:07):
now we're recording. So welcome to teach
wonder. Yes, welcometo teachwonder, a podcast hosted by I
podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neilland Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (01:27):
Welcome back to teach wonder. Our last episode
was a pretty deep dive intoplay. This is a two part
episode, so if you haven'tlistened to Episode One, pause
this and jump back into yourpodcast app and look for the
episode called learning throughplay. You can also find it
linked in our show notes. Onceyou're done, join us back here.
Okay, our last episode was apretty deep dive into play. We
(01:49):
talked about a newish coursewith undergrads here at CMU that
focuses on play's role in theclassroom. We talked about the
tenets of play. We defined play,and we talked about how teachers
could and should be using it asa valuable tool in their work.
This week, we're back with DrTracy Donahue and talking more
about the mechanics that makesthis specific class work so
well, and the specific skillsthat are so well taught and
(02:12):
practiced through play. We'rereturning to our interview with
Tracy at a moment when she'stalking about how this course
came to be while I had somevaluable tools in my undergrad
work, much of this class feelsdifferent and brand new. So
who's getting the chance to dothis work, and what exactly does
that look like?
Tracy Donohue (02:33):
Knowing the politics behind creating the
course and getting it throughcurriculum, I have learned that
there's so much that has goneinto all of any course or any
curriculum here at theuniversity. But I did look up
and the majors that areincluded, and all of these would
be a Bachelor of Science witheducation. So they're going to
get a certification, pre Kthrough third, birth through
(02:56):
kindergarten and early childhoodspecial ed, pre K through sixth,
birth through third and earlychildhood special ed. And then
also we have the early childhooddevelopment and learning, which
is also a degree with a Ba, baand Bs. So we actually now have
and so I a few, yeah, quite afew. So I think because of this
new banding and the newprogramming, is why the class is
(03:20):
growing. I would like to takeownership from that, but I think
it is because it's growing. I dosee I have almost 40 students
right now at 39 but I lookednext semester, it's been capped
at 30 which makes it feel alittle bit I love, actually, my
whole group, and I love when Isee almost 40 people in that
room, but it does feel like alot to, for sure, play.
Ashley O'Neil (03:43):
It's harder to play in a lecture hall, right?
Like, when you have bigger itjust isn't as conducive to,
yeah,
Tracy Donohue (03:48):
even, even down to we did, um, what did I do
yesterday? Well, I did a readaloud of a circle story like
Laura numeroff and I had themcome up and put the little
pieces on. Just even to readaloud to a large group of adults
is hard, because you want toshow them the pictures. And then
I did one of those mystery boxesyou've seen. So I had a student
come up, but then not everyonecan see, you know what's going
(04:10):
on. So yeah, yeah, that's good.
I have to say, when yourstudents were in the makerspace,
I was so delighted that they, Imean, like before they even had
their coats off before they evenhad barely said hello, right?
They were involved getting theirhands. It was fabulous, right?
So it's often, doesn't we workwith adults on a fairly regular
basis and educators on a regularbasis? And it doesn't always
(04:36):
happen that way. So there wasdelightful. That group in itself
was special, because I alwayssaid, Okay, I need I have a
fishbowl. Who's ready, and Iwould always have a teacher my
group. Now, I have kids thatpeople that want to be the
children, but nobody yet hasvolunteered to be a teacher.
Actually, that's not true. AfterI modeled, I had somebody. That
(04:58):
would do it. So I'm doing moremodel, more of the heavy
lifting. I'm hoping they'll takethat over. So I don't know what
it's going to be like thissemester when we visit, but they
there's more of a risk involved,right? There's more of a risk.
And we take ourselves seriously.
We don't this is a note, and Idon't know if this will come up,
but when you were saying, youknow, what is the definition of
(05:21):
play? I had jotted some notesjust in me thinking, obviously
the things I mentioned earlierare like problem solving and
social interaction. But one bigthing I wrote here that is
really important, not just in myplay class, in all my classes,
but I think play is where itpresents itself. Is an
opportunity for kids to learn tofail, and that's where my
(05:44):
students, they've never beentaught, and this is a K 12
thing, that failing is okay.
They just want to be told how todo it and do it right and get it
done. And so, so I try to modelfailing, I try to talk through
those opportunities. Yeah, andthat's gets back to that
iteration piece, yes, right? Ifyou're always successful, it
might not be a whole lot ofreason to iterate. And if we
(06:06):
laugh at ourselves, too, if wefail, like, that's okay too, you
know,
Ashley O'Neil (06:12):
I work lately, I've been working with old
teachers who work with olderstudents, so fourth grade and
up, okay, maybe, like, fourth orninth, is that band that I've
been working with, and I I hearor feel, maybe there's a
vulnerability, and, oh yeah,full and, and incorporating play
into learning. And I hear thatwith maybe some of your
(06:32):
students, with being theteacher, and kind of you're the
director of play, or you're theinitiator of play. And I wonder
a little bit if, if, how you howdo you think a teacher could get
through that, right? Like, doesit just happen by taking one
step at a time and justpracticing makes it more
comfortable? Or, or, what doesthat look like for a teacher
who's like, okay, hear whatyou're saying. I get it from,
(06:55):
like, the intellectual level,but doing it in my classroom
makes me feel weird, totally,
Tracy Donohue (07:01):
and I think some of us, I, you know, I'd love to
be able to say, well, it justcomes naturally to some people
and and I'm thankful that I canmake myself be vulnerable more
easily than I think some peoplecan. I think it is taking risks.
If I think back to being a thirdgrade teacher, my students, I
didn't play. I in NorthCarolina, we did not have duty
(07:21):
free recess or lunch, so I waswith those kids, and I did not
play with them all the time, butthey sure did love it when I did
play with them. And I rememberthis kid Byron. He was my first
or second class. He's like, Youcan't do a cartwheel. I was
like, Of course I can do acartwheel. And I did one. I was
sore for two weeks because Ihadn't done one in so long, and
(07:43):
but they his mom told me therehe I remember because I worked
with her. Actually, she waslike, he loves when you play
with them and just, just puttingmyself out there, if it's hard
or easy, just for a few minutes.
I remember playing uno with themat indoor recess, and they love
to make me draw four and seeingthem for who they're and be
like, I know Daniel's gonna makeme draw for again, really like,
(08:03):
and he was such a quiet kid, butlike, really valuing that he's
there, even in a jokingsituation. And building those
relationships is so valuable.
And so I think it's more of juststopping and taking a risk, even
if it's hard, you're going toget so much more mileage out of
(08:24):
that. I think of being home withmy when my big kids were little,
little, and I used to be like,you know, at like, in the
summers, I'd be like, you know,being a stay at home mom, you I
don't really spend more timewith them, because we're always
going here, here, here, doingthis chores and all this stuff.
And then I realized, if I justspend 10 minutes playing hide
and go seek with them, they'relike, so happy and content, and
(08:46):
they just go on and, like, dotheir thing. So I think it's
just putting in some
Ashley O'Neil (08:50):
effort, even when it's hard. And I like, what you
say too. Like, it doesn't haveto be all the time. Prolong
these brief, brief playfulinteractions, or these brief
moments, yeah, give you a chanceto get out uncomfortable for a
minute, and then it doesn't haveto be you all day. So
Tracy Donohue (09:05):
this is I'm gonna take this in a place that is
tragic, but when the MichiganState shooting happened a couple
weeks ago, I went to state. Soobviously I'm impacted. I have
friends that work there? I knowmy students all have connections
to somebody there in some way.
And so I was like, What do I do?
(09:28):
How I'm not just going to go inclass and have a class? I can't
do that. And and so I was like,here is the deal. You know, I
invite you to attend, but I alsoinvite you to self care, if you
if you need to take care ofyourself that next day, when
we're in class, we can playgames and we can not talk about
(09:51):
things. So we can talk aboutthings. I'm going to give you a
bunch of options. And so then wegot together, and I brought,
like, every board game thatwasn't like, trashed in. My
house I brought so I had like,two cart fulls of board games,
and probably a third of each ofmy classes came. And I was, I
was so happy to see them. So Ihad about 13 people in play
(10:11):
class. And I was like, Well, doyou want to talk about things?
They're like, we'll play andtalk about it. I was like, Okay.
And so we played hues and cues,and if y'all haven't played
that, it is so fun. We I thinkyou can play up to 10 people,
but we did teams and it, weended up like, being able to
talk through it. And so I thinksometimes also, if you're
(10:32):
someone that has a hard timejust sitting down going, let's
play with this. And like, Idon't want to do voices, I feel
silly a board game or somethingstructured can lend itself to
you building those relationshipsin the same way. That's good
point. I think something yousaid earlier comes back to that
point as well. You mentionedearlier taking your cues from
kids, which I hear you sort ofsaying now as well, right? So if
(10:56):
you can take your cues from thatuno game that they're playing or
the cartwheels that they'redoing on the playground, and
sort of join in. I think I'vemade this clear on the podcast
before that I was a secondaryinstructor, but I work
volunteering in the summer forkids on mountain bikes, and last
(11:16):
summer I had five and six yearolds, which is everybody who
knows me said, you're taking agroup of five and six year olds,
you know what? So perfect that,like, I needed that as much as
they needed the leaders outmountain biking, as much as they
needed it for learning to bike,right? I needed those two hours
of my week to be nowhere elseexcept present for those five
(11:38):
and six like that was my best I,you know, doesn't matter what
happened at work, doesn't matterwhat happened at home, doesn't
matter what I've got going on inthe rest of my life. But just
being present and gigglingabout, you know, not getting
very far before we need oursnack or or like, you know,
taking the time to roll in thedirt down the hill, because
(11:58):
we're not riding the hill orwhatever it was, right? Just
being absolutely silly. Yeah, itwas just exactly you got, I
needed this and the doll, yes,yeah, and that's why I take
their lead, yeah, right. Just soI think, like, and I'm, I'm
probably the last one to begiving advice on how to play.
But that really resonated withme when you said that earlier
(12:21):
about, like, taking the cuesfrom the kids.
Ashley O'Neil (12:24):
Yeah, I think for me, I know you talked, you
talked a lot about incorporate,incorporating your content, and
if you wanted to give anyspecific examples that you had
ready that we hadn't talkedabout, you're welcome to. But I
also think about it a lot interms of, I don't like the word
classroom management, that's myleast favorite word. But I think
about it in terms of, like, Ithink about my four year old son
getting out the door is hard inthe morning, and it's going to
(12:46):
be hard whether I go, we'redoing this and then this, and
you're going in, right? And Ihave a lot of structure, and I
just directly tell him what he'sgoing to do. Or it's going to be
hard if I put on a bit ofsilliness and we make it a game
to get out the door, or I makesilly noises every time he puts
a shoe on right, like it's justchoosing what's maybe tricky.
And so both are work, but maybethe playful one is more
(13:10):
meaningful and better. Buildingrelationships, like you said,
results in a better outcome. Andeverybody's regulation, right?
We leave that, we leave thehouse in a better place. And I
think if you think about in theclassroom. If you have a tough,
difficult moment, or a studentin a transition, that's going to
be tricky. You could make ittricky by this is what we're
doing. We're doing this now. I'mgoing to do this power this
(13:31):
power dynamics, play with you,or you could approach it with a
bit of playfulness instead.
Tracy Donohue (13:36):
I mean, there's a reason they've had play therapy
for ages. And again, I thinkit's just taking our lead and
like, going back to, like, kidshave it right, we're the ones
that have it wrong. Because
Ashley O'Neil (13:48):
this might feel novel or different for some of
our listeners, the more examplesmight help give them a more
nuanced understanding. Okay,
Tracy Donohue (13:56):
so you know, back to our folks that don't
necessarily it's going back tothat definition of play, and
this might inform my practicenext semester to really step
back and define play for longer.
Because I can talk, I canpreach, I can model all these
things, and I swear to you,someone will still go, how about
flashcards? My literacyactivity, I swear. And I go,
(14:19):
Well, what are you going to dowith this? Because i i They can
be engaging, and I'm not sayingthey're a bad tool, because I
don't want to shame anyone thatbuys flashcards. I If you it's
the same thing with like timemultiplication tests. I loved
those things when I was little,but they're not helpful for some
(14:40):
kids, you know, whatever. And soif you think about the intent
behind flashcards, okay, fine,but what can you do that is more
authentic, more playful? Somekids thrive on going, let me
beat the timer, let me do this.
But they might actually enjoy itmore if I'm pointing out
letters. The book that I'mreading, and so I need to model
(15:03):
more for more of what is play,even though I feel like I'm
modeling all the time. But havethem kind of think about play
doesn't have to be what you didas a child, either. And so some
things we did in class, like Itold you, we did a read aloud
yesterday. There's so manybeautiful things on teacher. Pay
(15:26):
Teachers, pay teachers, and I'mhappy for them to use it. But I
said just because it's cutedoesn't mean it's good. And so
that's where we go back to andgo like, high quality math
tasks, where is where are thesecharacteristics or attributes in
this task? Just because it'scolorful doesn't mean it's nice,
but also colorful can be niceor, sorry, engaging and
thoughtful work. And so I thinkit's more of just like helping
(15:50):
them develop some criticalityaround things they find online
is something that I do.
Ashley O'Neil (15:56):
The criticality is something I think we can all
take note from. Now. I'm nostranger to particularly famous
and well used sites of teacherresources run by teachers for
teachers, and I'm confident thathaving your teaching best friend
drop off a stack of freshlylaminated stations without you
even having to ask for it isstill one of my primary love
(16:18):
languages. But considering thecontent with that eye of
expertise, I'm not sure thatthat was always the first thing
on my mind. And I really lovethat Tracy considers this
practical resource that teachersare using, and has students use
their lens of expertise toreconsider and refine them. This
conversation also gets at thequestion Tracy's asked often
(16:39):
now, are you teaching explicitlyhow to play, playing through
teaching, teaching throughplaying? Her answer here is
fantastic.
Tracy Donohue (16:48):
I'm really trying to focus more on the
unstructured play and guidingthe learning I said. So what?
Where I see kind of a disrupt,or, I don't want to say
disparity, but a divide ish iswe want to people say, like,
it's this either or childcentered, we follow the child's
(17:10):
lead, or teacher directed. AndI'm here to argue, no, you need
both, because I can follow Juliearound all day long. But the
learning just doesn't just, Idon't open her, it doesn't just
pour in. I'm there to guide it.
And I said, You need to befamiliar with the things that
child should know. And again, Idon't like to put five year olds
in a five year old box and saythese are only for five year
(17:30):
olds, but I want you to befamiliar with most five year
olds should be able to do these,these, these. But also look at
six year olds, because if theycan do these, maybe they could
do these things, or maybethey're not there yet, and we
need to look back at what fouryear olds can do. So be familiar
with those standards. So thenhave those in the back of your
mind and go up and say, youknow, I noticed you're playing
(17:53):
restaurant. Could we make a signfor your restaurant and do some
interactive writing, and haveyou help me make some print and
add print in that environment.
I'm not disrupting your play.
I'm not driving your play, but Iam pushing and advancing your
learning. And
Ashley O'Neil (18:09):
if that child was like, No, I want to make a menu,
you'd be like, Great,
Tracy Donohue (18:13):
let's do that.
Yes, and so I'm following theirlead, but it's like, do you want
to put your shoes on? Or do youwant me to put your shoes on,
but either way, you're gonna putyour shoes on. And it's not that
we don't want kids to knowthey're learning. Like, I see a
lot of parents go it was so fun,they didn't even know they were
learning. It's not like sneakingvegetables into something. It's
okay to be like that waslearning, and that was fun, and
(18:35):
that's okay or or to even say wehad fun. Let's talk about all
the things we learned and thensomething I did yesterday. So we
were online one day, and I hadthem, I gave them, I said,
choose your own adventure, and Igave them different scenarios.
So like just, just context,playground, sandbox using an
(18:59):
iPad. So it's a child playing.
And what did I I can't rememberwhat the I think maybe I have
them choose a literacy skill, Ithink is what I did. And they
had to create a faux thickconversation around that. And
and so then I noticed that someof them are still writing, Oh, I
(19:19):
see, Ashley, you're playing withtiles. Can you tell me what that
color is? Oh, can you tell me aword that rhymes with that? Oh,
that's great. Thank you. And sothen I have them go back. I
said, Okay, now you're gonnacritique your own work. Did you
advance your child's learning?
And every time you're not underall these things, did you
advance their learning? Did youassess their learning? Did you
find out something they know, ordid you introduce some new,
(19:41):
like, vocabulary, you know? Sowe so then they and so then I
said, Okay, if you, if you canimprove any of those things,
what would it be? So they hadto, like, look at their script
when I did have the studentsmodel, so they didn't want to do
a fishbowl in front of the wholeclass. So I modeled. And then I.
Okay, now I have tubs around theroom. Y'all are going to go do
(20:01):
your own fishbowls. So I had,like, one was a parachute, so
they took it out in the hall,and they're like, how are we
doing literacy with a parachute?
And I was like, well, let's talkabout that. Let's think about
that. But anyway, there was thisone, and they had a balance. And
one Cassidy was modeling, beinga teacher, and it was, it the
(20:22):
same weight was on each side.
And so she said. So she wastrying to elicit some
conversation with this child.
And she was like, Okay, Inoticed that you actually have
have it going in a straightline. What would you call that?
And I'm not doing theconversation justice. And the
the student was like, flat.
She's like, you know what thatis right. And actually, I use
the word called balance when Ido that. And I didn't ask her to
(20:43):
do that and do anything, but itwas like a perfect everyone
stop. I just want to tell youwhat happened right here, and
just advancing their vocabularythere. So right, and not saying
you're right or wrong. In fact,you are right. It's flat. It is
flat also. And we thought wesaid balance, and so we talk
about ways to do that. And thenalso, like, sometimes I'll have
(21:03):
them play, and I'll just writewords on the board that I hear
them using, and I say, look atall these vocabulary words I
hear. And then that doesn't meanAshley's gonna be ready to use
that word. But then maybe nexttime we do this, that word might
enter your expressivevocabulary.
Ashley O'Neil (21:21):
So there's a lot of, I hear, a lot of reflecting
back with students, so lettingthem be in the moment. And you,
I like what you said abouthaving that, maybe that internal
progression of skills orstandards kind of that's your
job, yeah, and then to be readyto push that question in, or to
probe or ask that that question.
And not just quiz right now,
Tracy Donohue (21:42):
not just quiz.
And like you said that I'm goingto use that next week. What are
in two weeks? They also also, ifsomeone goes, Oh, well, that is
and they say something that isnothing in our kindergarten
standards. It's negativenumbers. Well, I still will
honor that and say, You knowwhat that is fourth grade, you
know, yes, there it. There areother numbers on the number
(22:04):
line. We're probably not goingto do that right here, but yes,
you're right. The number linegoes the other way and and to
honor that, because also, as athird grade teacher, you know,
it's really cute to call thisshape a diamond. For years and
years, we call it a diamond.
Books call it a diamond whenthey get to third grade, it's a
rhombus. And they're tested on arhombus. And I so then I go to
(22:26):
them, I said, is rhombus toohard for a kindergartener to
say? And some of them look at melike, I'm like, No, it's not too
hard for them to say. I waslike, so why can't we use the
Mathematically, the mathematicalterm for that shape, or at least
good and right. Also, yes, wecall it a rhombus in math, yeah,
(22:49):
and, and so just having them,and even if, in kindergarten, I
know they're not tested onrhombus, it's not whatever I
still, I don't want to limit andput anyone in that box and
Ashley O'Neil (23:00):
to their diamond is just as abstract, like they
don't have practice withdiamonds everywhere, right? Like
Tracy Donohue (23:06):
it's just that it's in baseball. I mean, so
culturally we call it a diamond,yes,
Ashley O'Neil (23:11):
and, but like, like a kindergartener has no
more frame of reference fordiamonds in their regular life.
Tracy Donohue (23:16):
No, no. And actually, I took a thing at NCTM
a long time ago, and it was mathchance. And saw math chance and
something. And so I will neverforget a rhombus as a square
that got hit by a bus. And sothe attributes of a rhombus are
actually equal lateral sides,but not right angles or whatever
(23:39):
so. And certainlykindergarteners would remember
that like, yeah, right, if I hada picture of Ramos with a bus
right here, yeah.
Ashley O'Neil (23:48):
So this last section of our interview is a
bit of the what and how thatgoes into Tracy's courses. We
have undergraduate students whowant to teach in that k3 grade
band, or who will work withyoung children somehow in their
professional capacity, and theyhave homework that includes
working with K through threechildren on a regular basis. And
it's that full circle moment.
Tracy gets a more accuratepicture of how her students are
(24:11):
doing by watching them practicethese skills. These undergrads
get the benefit of real practiceand Tracy's reflections and
conversations with themafterward, and those that group
of children get to playcustomized games and activities
that are catered to them,
Tracy Donohue (24:28):
mentioned that they actually have a focal child
that they work with, and so somestudents have family members
they can easily access, somenanny some work In daycares and
child care centers, but somedon't have access to kids, and
so I run into the issue of, Idon't have anyone to work with.
So the lab, the folks in thelab, have been generous in terms
(24:51):
of planning and the families.
And so it's I have a playgroupthat meets on some Wednesdays
between classes. It's. Prettyhectic, but my students bring
their activity. So yesterday wemet, and right after the prescho
lets out, the kiddos come andwe're in the multi purpose room,
and my students brought theirliteracy activities to sit and
play with the kids. And then Ialso have my assessment class
(25:14):
folks who don't have kids towork with coming in and taking
notes and observing, and so I'mhoping at some point they can
talk with each other. I don'tknow how to get there yet. It's
all kind of unfolding as we go,but I get the chance to watch my
students within that playgroupincorporate what we're doing in
(25:36):
class in the moment, which isnice, because a lot of times
reading the reflection is neveras much as like actually seeing
it and and they get a chance toreally try out their activities,
real kids in a safe environment.
Ashley O'Neil (25:54):
This conversation about play has taken us for two
weeks of interviews on teachwonder, and like we said at the
beginning of this episode, ifyou haven't listened to the
episode prior, you reallyshould. We talked about the
nature of play, its tenants, whyit matters, and our team will be
coming back soon with someexciting news of our own on our
work with play. But at thebeginning of episode one, I
(26:15):
asked you to consider the lensthat your life has created for
you, the lens through which yousee teaching and learning, and I
invite you to do what Tracy andher students are doing, to do
what our team has been doingduring this podcast and our own
work. Add some of thisinformation to your own lens.
See your daily life and yourwork with students or your
children through this lens ofplay. We'd love to hear your
(26:38):
thoughts and experiences. Emailus at C, E, S, E, at C, M, I, C,
h.edu, if you'd like to shareand as always, links are in the
show notes. This has beenanother episode of teach wonder.
You
US this week, we're re sharing episodes that
we recorded last fall. Julie andI are headed to Iceland this
weekend with Dr Tracy Donohue,and we thought that re sharing
these conversations with her wasthe perfect way for us to
reintroduce her work to all ofyou during a season that we're
talking about agency. Tracy'swork considers this through the
lens of play. As an earlychildhood educator and now an
(00:25):
early childhood educationfaculty member, we first
partnered with Tracy at thisintersection between play and
agency. We'll be back in Octoberwith some really exciting
conversations about the rolethat competence has to play with
agency. But until then, enjoythis episode with Tracy,
Tracy Donohue (00:42):
play is where it presents itself. Is an
opportunity for kids to learn tofail, and that's where my
students, they've never beentaught. And this is a K 12
thing, that failing is okay.
They just want to be told how todo it and do it right and get it
done. And so, so I try to modelfailing. I try to talk through
those opportunities. Okay,
Introduction (01:07):
now we're recording. So welcome to teach
wonder. Yes, welcometo teachwonder, a podcast hosted by I
podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neilland Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (01:27):
Welcome back to teach wonder. Our last episode
was a pretty deep dive intoplay. This is a two part
episode, so if you haven'tlistened to Episode One, pause
this and jump back into yourpodcast app and look for the
episode called learning throughplay. You can also find it
linked in our show notes. Onceyou're done, join us back here.
Okay, our last episode was apretty deep dive into play. We
(01:49):
talked about a newish coursewith undergrads here at CMU that
focuses on play's role in theclassroom. We talked about the
tenets of play. We defined play,and we talked about how teachers
could and should be using it asa valuable tool in their work.
This week, we're back with DrTracy Donahue and talking more
about the mechanics that makesthis specific class work so
well, and the specific skillsthat are so well taught and
(02:12):
practiced through play. We'rereturning to our interview with
Tracy at a moment when she'stalking about how this course
came to be while I had somevaluable tools in my undergrad
work, much of this class feelsdifferent and brand new. So
who's getting the chance to dothis work, and what exactly does
that look like?
Tracy Donohue (02:33):
Knowing the politics behind creating the
course and getting it throughcurriculum, I have learned that
there's so much that has goneinto all of any course or any
curriculum here at theuniversity. But I did look up
and the majors that areincluded, and all of these would
be a Bachelor of Science witheducation. So they're going to
get a certification, pre Kthrough third, birth through
(02:56):
kindergarten and early childhoodspecial ed, pre K through sixth,
birth through third and earlychildhood special ed. And then
also we have the early childhooddevelopment and learning, which
is also a degree with a Ba, baand Bs. So we actually now have
and so I a few, yeah, quite afew. So I think because of this
new banding and the newprogramming, is why the class is
(03:20):
growing. I would like to takeownership from that, but I think
it is because it's growing. I dosee I have almost 40 students
right now at 39 but I lookednext semester, it's been capped
at 30 which makes it feel alittle bit I love, actually, my
whole group, and I love when Isee almost 40 people in that
room, but it does feel like alot to, for sure, play.
Ashley O'Neil (03:43):
It's harder to play in a lecture hall, right?
Like, when you have bigger itjust isn't as conducive to,
yeah,
Tracy Donohue (03:48):
even, even down to we did, um, what did I do
yesterday? Well, I did a readaloud of a circle story like
Laura numeroff and I had themcome up and put the little
pieces on. Just even to readaloud to a large group of adults
is hard, because you want toshow them the pictures. And then
I did one of those mystery boxesyou've seen. So I had a student
come up, but then not everyonecan see, you know what's going
(04:10):
on. So yeah, yeah, that's good.
I have to say, when yourstudents were in the makerspace,
I was so delighted that they, Imean, like before they even had
their coats off before they evenhad barely said hello, right?
They were involved getting theirhands. It was fabulous, right?
So it's often, doesn't we workwith adults on a fairly regular
basis and educators on a regularbasis? And it doesn't always
(04:36):
happen that way. So there wasdelightful. That group in itself
was special, because I alwayssaid, Okay, I need I have a
fishbowl. Who's ready, and Iwould always have a teacher my
group. Now, I have kids thatpeople that want to be the
children, but nobody yet hasvolunteered to be a teacher.
Actually, that's not true. AfterI modeled, I had somebody. That
(04:58):
would do it. So I'm doing moremodel, more of the heavy
lifting. I'm hoping they'll takethat over. So I don't know what
it's going to be like thissemester when we visit, but they
there's more of a risk involved,right? There's more of a risk.
And we take ourselves seriously.
We don't this is a note, and Idon't know if this will come up,
but when you were saying, youknow, what is the definition of
(05:21):
play? I had jotted some notesjust in me thinking, obviously
the things I mentioned earlierare like problem solving and
social interaction. But one bigthing I wrote here that is
really important, not just in myplay class, in all my classes,
but I think play is where itpresents itself. Is an
opportunity for kids to learn tofail, and that's where my
(05:44):
students, they've never beentaught, and this is a K 12
thing, that failing is okay.
They just want to be told how todo it and do it right and get it
done. And so, so I try to modelfailing, I try to talk through
those opportunities. Yeah, andthat's gets back to that
iteration piece, yes, right? Ifyou're always successful, it
might not be a whole lot ofreason to iterate. And if we
(06:06):
laugh at ourselves, too, if wefail, like, that's okay too, you
know,
Ashley O'Neil (06:12):
I work lately, I've been working with old
teachers who work with olderstudents, so fourth grade and
up, okay, maybe, like, fourth orninth, is that band that I've
been working with, and I I hearor feel, maybe there's a
vulnerability, and, oh yeah,full and, and incorporating play
into learning. And I hear thatwith maybe some of your
(06:32):
students, with being theteacher, and kind of you're the
director of play, or you're theinitiator of play. And I wonder
a little bit if, if, how you howdo you think a teacher could get
through that, right? Like, doesit just happen by taking one
step at a time and justpracticing makes it more
comfortable? Or, or, what doesthat look like for a teacher
who's like, okay, hear whatyou're saying. I get it from,
(06:55):
like, the intellectual level,but doing it in my classroom
makes me feel weird, totally,
Tracy Donohue (07:01):
and I think some of us, I, you know, I'd love to
be able to say, well, it justcomes naturally to some people
and and I'm thankful that I canmake myself be vulnerable more
easily than I think some peoplecan. I think it is taking risks.
If I think back to being a thirdgrade teacher, my students, I
didn't play. I in NorthCarolina, we did not have duty
(07:21):
free recess or lunch, so I waswith those kids, and I did not
play with them all the time, butthey sure did love it when I did
play with them. And I rememberthis kid Byron. He was my first
or second class. He's like, Youcan't do a cartwheel. I was
like, Of course I can do acartwheel. And I did one. I was
sore for two weeks because Ihadn't done one in so long, and
(07:43):
but they his mom told me therehe I remember because I worked
with her. Actually, she waslike, he loves when you play
with them and just, just puttingmyself out there, if it's hard
or easy, just for a few minutes.
I remember playing uno with themat indoor recess, and they love
to make me draw four and seeingthem for who they're and be
like, I know Daniel's gonna makeme draw for again, really like,
(08:03):
and he was such a quiet kid, butlike, really valuing that he's
there, even in a jokingsituation. And building those
relationships is so valuable.
And so I think it's more of juststopping and taking a risk, even
if it's hard, you're going toget so much more mileage out of
(08:24):
that. I think of being home withmy when my big kids were little,
little, and I used to be like,you know, at like, in the
summers, I'd be like, you know,being a stay at home mom, you I
don't really spend more timewith them, because we're always
going here, here, here, doingthis chores and all this stuff.
And then I realized, if I justspend 10 minutes playing hide
and go seek with them, they'relike, so happy and content, and
(08:46):
they just go on and, like, dotheir thing. So I think it's
just putting in some
Ashley O'Neil (08:50):
effort, even when it's hard. And I like, what you
say too. Like, it doesn't haveto be all the time. Prolong
these brief, brief playfulinteractions, or these brief
moments, yeah, give you a chanceto get out uncomfortable for a
minute, and then it doesn't haveto be you all day. So
Tracy Donohue (09:05):
this is I'm gonna take this in a place that is
tragic, but when the MichiganState shooting happened a couple
weeks ago, I went to state. Soobviously I'm impacted. I have
friends that work there? I knowmy students all have connections
to somebody there in some way.
And so I was like, What do I do?
(09:28):
How I'm not just going to go inclass and have a class? I can't
do that. And and so I was like,here is the deal. You know, I
invite you to attend, but I alsoinvite you to self care, if you
if you need to take care ofyourself that next day, when
we're in class, we can playgames and we can not talk about
(09:51):
things. So we can talk aboutthings. I'm going to give you a
bunch of options. And so then wegot together, and I brought,
like, every board game thatwasn't like, trashed in. My
house I brought so I had like,two cart fulls of board games,
and probably a third of each ofmy classes came. And I was, I
was so happy to see them. So Ihad about 13 people in play
(10:11):
class. And I was like, Well, doyou want to talk about things?
They're like, we'll play andtalk about it. I was like, Okay.
And so we played hues and cues,and if y'all haven't played
that, it is so fun. We I thinkyou can play up to 10 people,
but we did teams and it, weended up like, being able to
talk through it. And so I thinksometimes also, if you're
(10:32):
someone that has a hard timejust sitting down going, let's
play with this. And like, Idon't want to do voices, I feel
silly a board game or somethingstructured can lend itself to
you building those relationshipsin the same way. That's good
point. I think something yousaid earlier comes back to that
point as well. You mentionedearlier taking your cues from
kids, which I hear you sort ofsaying now as well, right? So if
(10:56):
you can take your cues from thatuno game that they're playing or
the cartwheels that they'redoing on the playground, and
sort of join in. I think I'vemade this clear on the podcast
before that I was a secondaryinstructor, but I work
volunteering in the summer forkids on mountain bikes, and last
(11:16):
summer I had five and six yearolds, which is everybody who
knows me said, you're taking agroup of five and six year olds,
you know what? So perfect that,like, I needed that as much as
they needed the leaders outmountain biking, as much as they
needed it for learning to bike,right? I needed those two hours
of my week to be nowhere elseexcept present for those five
(11:38):
and six like that was my best I,you know, doesn't matter what
happened at work, doesn't matterwhat happened at home, doesn't
matter what I've got going on inthe rest of my life. But just
being present and gigglingabout, you know, not getting
very far before we need oursnack or or like, you know,
taking the time to roll in thedirt down the hill, because
(11:58):
we're not riding the hill orwhatever it was, right? Just
being absolutely silly. Yeah, itwas just exactly you got, I
needed this and the doll, yes,yeah, and that's why I take
their lead, yeah, right. Just soI think, like, and I'm, I'm
probably the last one to begiving advice on how to play.
But that really resonated withme when you said that earlier
(12:21):
about, like, taking the cuesfrom the kids.
Ashley O'Neil (12:24):
Yeah, I think for me, I know you talked, you
talked a lot about incorporate,incorporating your content, and
if you wanted to give anyspecific examples that you had
ready that we hadn't talkedabout, you're welcome to. But I
also think about it a lot interms of, I don't like the word
classroom management, that's myleast favorite word. But I think
about it in terms of, like, Ithink about my four year old son
getting out the door is hard inthe morning, and it's going to
(12:46):
be hard whether I go, we'redoing this and then this, and
you're going in, right? And Ihave a lot of structure, and I
just directly tell him what he'sgoing to do. Or it's going to be
hard if I put on a bit ofsilliness and we make it a game
to get out the door, or I makesilly noises every time he puts
a shoe on right, like it's justchoosing what's maybe tricky.
And so both are work, but maybethe playful one is more
(13:10):
meaningful and better. Buildingrelationships, like you said,
results in a better outcome. Andeverybody's regulation, right?
We leave that, we leave thehouse in a better place. And I
think if you think about in theclassroom. If you have a tough,
difficult moment, or a studentin a transition, that's going to
be tricky. You could make ittricky by this is what we're
doing. We're doing this now. I'mgoing to do this power this
(13:31):
power dynamics, play with you,or you could approach it with a
bit of playfulness instead.
Tracy Donohue (13:36):
I mean, there's a reason they've had play therapy
for ages. And again, I thinkit's just taking our lead and
like, going back to, like, kidshave it right, we're the ones
that have it wrong. Because
Ashley O'Neil (13:48):
this might feel novel or different for some of
our listeners, the more examplesmight help give them a more
nuanced understanding. Okay,
Tracy Donohue (13:56):
so you know, back to our folks that don't
necessarily it's going back tothat definition of play, and
this might inform my practicenext semester to really step
back and define play for longer.
Because I can talk, I canpreach, I can model all these
things, and I swear to you,someone will still go, how about
flashcards? My literacyactivity, I swear. And I go,
(14:19):
Well, what are you going to dowith this? Because i i They can
be engaging, and I'm not sayingthey're a bad tool, because I
don't want to shame anyone thatbuys flashcards. I If you it's
the same thing with like timemultiplication tests. I loved
those things when I was little,but they're not helpful for some
(14:40):
kids, you know, whatever. And soif you think about the intent
behind flashcards, okay, fine,but what can you do that is more
authentic, more playful? Somekids thrive on going, let me
beat the timer, let me do this.
But they might actually enjoy itmore if I'm pointing out
letters. The book that I'mreading, and so I need to model
(15:03):
more for more of what is play,even though I feel like I'm
modeling all the time. But havethem kind of think about play
doesn't have to be what you didas a child, either. And so some
things we did in class, like Itold you, we did a read aloud
yesterday. There's so manybeautiful things on teacher. Pay
(15:26):
Teachers, pay teachers, and I'mhappy for them to use it. But I
said just because it's cutedoesn't mean it's good. And so
that's where we go back to andgo like, high quality math
tasks, where is where are thesecharacteristics or attributes in
this task? Just because it'scolorful doesn't mean it's nice,
but also colorful can be niceor, sorry, engaging and
thoughtful work. And so I thinkit's more of just like helping
(15:50):
them develop some criticalityaround things they find online
is something that I do.
Ashley O'Neil (15:56):
The criticality is something I think we can all
take note from. Now. I'm nostranger to particularly famous
and well used sites of teacherresources run by teachers for
teachers, and I'm confident thathaving your teaching best friend
drop off a stack of freshlylaminated stations without you
even having to ask for it isstill one of my primary love
(16:18):
languages. But considering thecontent with that eye of
expertise, I'm not sure thatthat was always the first thing
on my mind. And I really lovethat Tracy considers this
practical resource that teachersare using, and has students use
their lens of expertise toreconsider and refine them. This
conversation also gets at thequestion Tracy's asked often
(16:39):
now, are you teaching explicitlyhow to play, playing through
teaching, teaching throughplaying? Her answer here is
fantastic.
Tracy Donohue (16:48):
I'm really trying to focus more on the
unstructured play and guidingthe learning I said. So what?
Where I see kind of a disrupt,or, I don't want to say
disparity, but a divide ish iswe want to people say, like,
it's this either or childcentered, we follow the child's
(17:10):
lead, or teacher directed. AndI'm here to argue, no, you need
both, because I can follow Juliearound all day long. But the
learning just doesn't just, Idon't open her, it doesn't just
pour in. I'm there to guide it.
And I said, You need to befamiliar with the things that
child should know. And again, Idon't like to put five year olds
in a five year old box and saythese are only for five year
(17:30):
olds, but I want you to befamiliar with most five year
olds should be able to do these,these, these. But also look at
six year olds, because if theycan do these, maybe they could
do these things, or maybethey're not there yet, and we
need to look back at what fouryear olds can do. So be familiar
with those standards. So thenhave those in the back of your
mind and go up and say, youknow, I noticed you're playing
(17:53):
restaurant. Could we make a signfor your restaurant and do some
interactive writing, and haveyou help me make some print and
add print in that environment.
I'm not disrupting your play.
I'm not driving your play, but Iam pushing and advancing your
learning. And
Ashley O'Neil (18:09):
if that child was like, No, I want to make a menu,
you'd be like, Great,
Tracy Donohue (18:13):
let's do that.
Yes, and so I'm following theirlead, but it's like, do you want
to put your shoes on? Or do youwant me to put your shoes on,
but either way, you're gonna putyour shoes on. And it's not that
we don't want kids to knowthey're learning. Like, I see a
lot of parents go it was so fun,they didn't even know they were
learning. It's not like sneakingvegetables into something. It's
okay to be like that waslearning, and that was fun, and
(18:35):
that's okay or or to even say wehad fun. Let's talk about all
the things we learned and thensomething I did yesterday. So we
were online one day, and I hadthem, I gave them, I said,
choose your own adventure, and Igave them different scenarios.
So like just, just context,playground, sandbox using an
(18:59):
iPad. So it's a child playing.
And what did I I can't rememberwhat the I think maybe I have
them choose a literacy skill, Ithink is what I did. And they
had to create a faux thickconversation around that. And
and so then I noticed that someof them are still writing, Oh, I
(19:19):
see, Ashley, you're playing withtiles. Can you tell me what that
color is? Oh, can you tell me aword that rhymes with that? Oh,
that's great. Thank you. And sothen I have them go back. I
said, Okay, now you're gonnacritique your own work. Did you
advance your child's learning?
And every time you're not underall these things, did you
advance their learning? Did youassess their learning? Did you
find out something they know, ordid you introduce some new,
(19:41):
like, vocabulary, you know? Sowe so then they and so then I
said, Okay, if you, if you canimprove any of those things,
what would it be? So they hadto, like, look at their script
when I did have the studentsmodel, so they didn't want to do
a fishbowl in front of the wholeclass. So I modeled. And then I.
Okay, now I have tubs around theroom. Y'all are going to go do
(20:01):
your own fishbowls. So I had,like, one was a parachute, so
they took it out in the hall,and they're like, how are we
doing literacy with a parachute?
And I was like, well, let's talkabout that. Let's think about
that. But anyway, there was thisone, and they had a balance. And
one Cassidy was modeling, beinga teacher, and it was, it the
(20:22):
same weight was on each side.
And so she said. So she wastrying to elicit some
conversation with this child.
And she was like, Okay, Inoticed that you actually have
have it going in a straightline. What would you call that?
And I'm not doing theconversation justice. And the
the student was like, flat.
She's like, you know what thatis right. And actually, I use
the word called balance when Ido that. And I didn't ask her to
(20:43):
do that and do anything, but itwas like a perfect everyone
stop. I just want to tell youwhat happened right here, and
just advancing their vocabularythere. So right, and not saying
you're right or wrong. In fact,you are right. It's flat. It is
flat also. And we thought wesaid balance, and so we talk
about ways to do that. And thenalso, like, sometimes I'll have
(21:03):
them play, and I'll just writewords on the board that I hear
them using, and I say, look atall these vocabulary words I
hear. And then that doesn't meanAshley's gonna be ready to use
that word. But then maybe nexttime we do this, that word might
enter your expressivevocabulary.
Ashley O'Neil (21:21):
So there's a lot of, I hear, a lot of reflecting
back with students, so lettingthem be in the moment. And you,
I like what you said abouthaving that, maybe that internal
progression of skills orstandards kind of that's your
job, yeah, and then to be readyto push that question in, or to
probe or ask that that question.
And not just quiz right now,
Tracy Donohue (21:42):
not just quiz.
And like you said that I'm goingto use that next week. What are
in two weeks? They also also, ifsomeone goes, Oh, well, that is
and they say something that isnothing in our kindergarten
standards. It's negativenumbers. Well, I still will
honor that and say, You knowwhat that is fourth grade, you
know, yes, there it. There areother numbers on the number
(22:04):
line. We're probably not goingto do that right here, but yes,
you're right. The number linegoes the other way and and to
honor that, because also, as athird grade teacher, you know,
it's really cute to call thisshape a diamond. For years and
years, we call it a diamond.
Books call it a diamond whenthey get to third grade, it's a
rhombus. And they're tested on arhombus. And I so then I go to
(22:26):
them, I said, is rhombus toohard for a kindergartener to
say? And some of them look at melike, I'm like, No, it's not too
hard for them to say. I waslike, so why can't we use the
Mathematically, the mathematicalterm for that shape, or at least
good and right. Also, yes, wecall it a rhombus in math, yeah,
(22:49):
and, and so just having them,and even if, in kindergarten, I
know they're not tested onrhombus, it's not whatever I
still, I don't want to limit andput anyone in that box and
Ashley O'Neil (23:00):
to their diamond is just as abstract, like they
don't have practice withdiamonds everywhere, right? Like
Tracy Donohue (23:06):
it's just that it's in baseball. I mean, so
culturally we call it a diamond,yes,
Ashley O'Neil (23:11):
and, but like, like a kindergartener has no
more frame of reference fordiamonds in their regular life.
Tracy Donohue (23:16):
No, no. And actually, I took a thing at NCTM
a long time ago, and it was mathchance. And saw math chance and
something. And so I will neverforget a rhombus as a square
that got hit by a bus. And sothe attributes of a rhombus are
actually equal lateral sides,but not right angles or whatever
(23:39):
so. And certainlykindergarteners would remember
that like, yeah, right, if I hada picture of Ramos with a bus
right here, yeah.
Ashley O'Neil (23:48):
So this last section of our interview is a
bit of the what and how thatgoes into Tracy's courses. We
have undergraduate students whowant to teach in that k3 grade
band, or who will work withyoung children somehow in their
professional capacity, and theyhave homework that includes
working with K through threechildren on a regular basis. And
it's that full circle moment.
Tracy gets a more accuratepicture of how her students are
(24:11):
doing by watching them practicethese skills. These undergrads
get the benefit of real practiceand Tracy's reflections and
conversations with themafterward, and those that group
of children get to playcustomized games and activities
that are catered to them,
Tracy Donohue (24:28):
mentioned that they actually have a focal child
that they work with, and so somestudents have family members
they can easily access, somenanny some work In daycares and
child care centers, but somedon't have access to kids, and
so I run into the issue of, Idon't have anyone to work with.
So the lab, the folks in thelab, have been generous in terms
(24:51):
of planning and the families.
And so it's I have a playgroupthat meets on some Wednesdays
between classes. It's. Prettyhectic, but my students bring
their activity. So yesterday wemet, and right after the prescho
lets out, the kiddos come andwe're in the multi purpose room,
and my students brought theirliteracy activities to sit and
play with the kids. And then Ialso have my assessment class
(25:14):
folks who don't have kids towork with coming in and taking
notes and observing, and so I'mhoping at some point they can
talk with each other. I don'tknow how to get there yet. It's
all kind of unfolding as we go,but I get the chance to watch my
students within that playgroupincorporate what we're doing in
(25:36):
class in the moment, which isnice, because a lot of times
reading the reflection is neveras much as like actually seeing
it and and they get a chance toreally try out their activities,
real kids in a safe environment.
Ashley O'Neil (25:54):
This conversation about play has taken us for two
weeks of interviews on teachwonder, and like we said at the
beginning of this episode, ifyou haven't listened to the
episode prior, you reallyshould. We talked about the
nature of play, its tenants, whyit matters, and our team will be
coming back soon with someexciting news of our own on our
work with play. But at thebeginning of episode one, I
(26:15):
asked you to consider the lensthat your life has created for
you, the lens through which yousee teaching and learning, and I
invite you to do what Tracy andher students are doing, to do
what our team has been doingduring this podcast and our own
work. Add some of thisinformation to your own lens.
See your daily life and yourwork with students or your
children through this lens ofplay. We'd love to hear your
(26:38):
thoughts and experiences. Emailus at C, E, S, E, at C, M, I, C,
h.edu, if you'd like to shareand as always, links are in the
show notes. This has beenanother episode of teach wonder.
You
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