Join us as we sit down with Dr. Sam Coleman, the visionary assistant superintendent from Oshkosh, who takes us through an inspiring narrative that captures the heart of educational leadership. From his initial dreams of law enforcement to becoming a powerful voice in K-12 education, Dr. Coleman's story is one of passion and dedication. He reveals how he's championed a student-centric approach, aiming to transform schools into hubs of empowerment and cultural pride. We delve into his strategies for tackling the racial achievement gaps in literacy, and how his leadership is paving the way for a more equitable future in education.
The conversation shifts to the intricate dance of leading multiple schools, each with their own unique tapelets of needs and challenges. I share insights from my own experiences, emphasizing the importance of community-responsive leadership and the deep impact it can create. Together, we uncover the essence of service in education, the power of a higher calling in our profession, and the indelible marks we leave through our commitment to excellence. Dr. Coleman's and my discussion is a testament to the transformative potential of educational leadership when it's wielded with intention and heart.
As we peer into the horizon, we grapple with the merging worlds of education and technology, contemplating how to best arm students for the avalanche of changes on their path. We talk about the need for education systems to keep pace with the industry, integrating AI tools like ChatGPT into learning experiences.
www.EdwardDeShazer.org
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome to the Teacher's Ed podcast, where the
best and brightest in educationcome to inspire, to connect, to
learn and to grow.
I'm your host, edward DeSazer,and I appreciate you all for
joining me again this Sunday.
Even though I'm not recordingon a Sunday this is Sunday, so
it sounds weird to say but myguest today.
It's an honor to have Dr SamColeman on today.
(00:34):
He is a proud Milwaukee nativeand currently lives in the city
of Oshkosh.
He is the assistantsuperintendent for the Oshkosh
Area School District and wasrecently named by Madison 365 as
one of the most influentialBlack leaders of 2023 in the
state of Wisconsin.
His work is focused on providinghigh quality education for all
(00:55):
students, expanding access toopportunities and closing racial
gaps in achievement outcomes,particularly in reading and
literacy.
As a mentor, community servantand youth advocate, dr Coleman
believes that his calling inlife is to help raise upa
generation of leaders who willboldly create a new society that
(01:15):
fosters justice, cultural pride, achievement, collectivism and
self-determination.
And I can say specifically froma little bit of time I spent at
one of the schools in Oshkoshand Dr Coleman was there.
He is a leader and the peoplethat he gets opportunity to
serve are definitely better offbecause he is working with them.
(01:36):
Dr Coleman, I appreciate youfor jumping on and taking time
out to be with me today.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I appreciate you.
Thank you for that, for theintroduction, and also thank you
for just the opportunity for meto talk about what I love doing
the most and really what mylife's work is, and that is the
education of our young people.
So I'm excited to be on hereand I'm ready to jump in.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
So, just to begin, I know a little bit about your
journey.
I talked about all the greatthings you've done.
I would love just for you totake some time and let everyone
know how you ended up where youare, because really, this is not
where you started.
It's probably not where you'refinishing, but ultimately, like
what brought you to where youcurrently are are.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So my journey in K-12 education as an educator
started out as aparaprofessional at a parochial
school, a Christian school onMilwaukee's north side, actually
in the Sherman Park area, andso at that time I was on the
trajectory of being a lawenforcement officer.
On the trajectory of being alaw enforcement officer, I had
just completed an associate'sprogram at Waukesha County Tech
in criminal justice and policescience, enrolled in a
(02:53):
bachelor's program at CardinalStritch in business management,
and thought that I wanted to belike an organizational leader in
law enforcement.
And so, anyway, I attended thischurch and the church had a
school associated with it and Iremember the youth pastor at the
time just saying, like, haveyou ever thought about working
(03:16):
in education?
And so it really thatconversation that I had with my
youth pastor at that time reallygot me thinking about ways to
make an impact in localcommunities and proactive ways.
At that time I didn't see myselfas an educator.
I guess I also never had anyblack male teachers really as
(03:37):
that role model example for me.
So honestly, it wasn'tsomething that I envisioned for
myself, but I knew that I wantedto make an impact in the
community and prior to thatconversation, the way I thought
about that impact would be inlaw enforcement or youth
corrections or in the legaljustice field in some way.
(03:58):
But anyway, the door opened forme to envision myself as an
educator.
The door opened for me toenvision myself as an educator.
I started out as aparaprofessional, went into the
teaching role and then was aDean of students, a school
counselor, director of studentservices, curriculum instruction
and I was assistantsuperintendent.
So the journey and I think Ijust simplified it a lot it was
(04:20):
a lot more to the to the journeythan that.
But yeah, that was where itstarted and as a
paraprofessional, I wanted tomake a difference.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And that's I think it's valuable for people that
are listening, because it's likeyou actually have pretty much
covered every base in a school,because oftentimes people that
get into positions like yoursstarted off as a teacher, but
you actually started off as aparaprofessional, so you have
really climbed up in the spacethat you've been in, that, the
(04:52):
space that you're currently in.
And the first question I kind ofwant to jump into and you've
talked about a little bit, butwhat?
Let me start by asking when youthink about education, I think
a lot of people have differentphilosophies and I know you are
big on trying to close that gapin literacy.
But what would you say is yourphilosophy on where education is
(05:14):
now?
But then, ultimately, where doyou want to see education going?
Because I think anyone that'slistening knows I feel like
we're kind of at a crossroad ineducation.
I think anyone that's listeningknows I feel like we're kind of
at a crossroad in education.
So I'd be curious kind of whatis your stance on your
philosophy in education andwhere you would like to see the
educational world go, you know,under your leadership?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah.
So I think it depends.
It comes from a few differentperspectives.
I think what I want educationto be for students, most
importantly, I have a student'sfirst philosophy, student's
first mantra.
So I want K-12 education to bea space of liberation for
students, where they canexperience artistic, academic,
intellectual, athletic freedoms,where they can explore
themselves, explorepossibilities in ways that allow
(06:03):
them to learn with their peers,learn alongside others and
explore possibilities themselves, without hindrances or
limitations on that.
So for students, I wanteducation to be a place of
freedom and liberation and allof those areas that I just named
.
For parents, I want oureducation to be a place where
(06:23):
they can trust the systems andthe spaces where they're sending
their students to, in manycases five days a week, for
seven or eight or more hours aday, trusting that this is an
environment where the studentswill be safe, the students will
get healthy exposure to theunique diversity that exists in
the world around them, and thatthe students are learning ways
(06:44):
to be contributing citizens,even now, as young people, to
the world that they live in.
And then, for educators, schoolsshould be a place where we find
our passions and our joys andour fulfillment maximized by
being able to put our all intothe work that we care the most
about and being able to see theresults and the impact of that
(07:05):
work.
So, for me personally as aneducator, I want educators to
feel like they can do their bestwork with the most amount of
support and the most clarity andthe most alignment, to have the
most impact.
And while that is a very highambition to have, my philosophy
is we are the best that we canbe for students when we are
(07:27):
doing our best work with themost alignment, with the most
support, with the most clarity,having the most impact.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Sorry for the interruption.
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Now back to the episode, and Ijust hearing what you're saying.
(08:15):
I think the word well, twowords that really stood out to
me is support and hearing itlike not only do we have to
support our students in astudent-centered environment,
but we also have to support theadults, and I think that is
something that can get missed attimes because we are so
student-focused that we forgetthat our adults need support
(08:39):
right now too.
And I love hearing you say that, because when I spend time in
schools, that is one thing Ihear the most from teachers and
educators who are at that kindof burnout phase.
They're just like I don't feelsupported by my leadership, and
that was one of the things thatreally stood out to me in my
time that I spent at ReedElementary was just watching.
(09:02):
I'm big on watching how peopleinteract, especially when I'm
spending time in a school, andwatching how you came into the
room it was very evident thatthe people there knew you
supported them.
But even just kind ofoverhearing the conversations,
it was refreshing to seeleadership that felt connected
(09:24):
with their staff and I thinkthat just kind of hearing what
you're saying, I think you'redoing an excellent job.
But I've actually seen you inwork.
So it's not like you know we getpeople that get on the internet
and they, as the kids say, theylove to cap about what they're
about Like man we want tosupport, but like I actually
heard and saw how the staffthere respected you because it's
(09:45):
very clear that you know you'resomeone that will come in and
roll their sleeves up asleadership.
So I let me just acknowledgethat I've seen the work that you
do and just lift my hat off toyou because it's very evident in
the work that you know a, thatyou support your staff, that you
actually care for them, thatyou know a, that you support
your staff, that you actuallycare for them, and I think that
(10:15):
has a trickle down effect, thatthen the staff can do that for
their students, because they're,they're, you're modeling what
you need them to do by doing itfor the adults.
So, like that was the word whenyou were talking that really
stood out to me was, you know,supporting and caring for the
people that you get theopportunity to serve?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
you know, supporting and caring for the people that
you get the opportunity to serve.
Yeah, I mean.
First of all, thank you so muchfor just saying that and just
sharing those words ofaffirmation.
I think for me, the supportthat we need as adults working
in a system, doing verydifficult work in ways that
might be very difficult tosustain momentum every day,
(10:46):
doing the type of work that wedo, there are very strategic
ways that we can support eachother, but also very strategic
ways that I think we have toadvocate for the support that's
needed.
And sometimes it really is justfor me, working in central
office as a teacher at heart, itis impossible for me to be the
(11:08):
type of administrator that sitsin my office, you know, at my
computer, waiting for somebodyto call me or waiting for
somebody to email me.
I get my energy from being inclassrooms, being in schools,
working alongside students,alongside educators, alongside
special education teachers,counselors, principals,
(11:30):
paraprofessionals, parents.
So, and I don't, and I'm alwayslearning new ways to support.
Sometimes it is just listening,sometimes it's being present
and showing up, sometimes it'scoming in to to learn from
students, from staff, fromparents.
So, as I continue to learn newways to support, I'm eager to
(11:51):
put that learning into actionbecause it makes me do my work
better.
I can be more informed as anassistant superintendent,
particularly as I coordinate ourinstructional strategy.
As I coordinate ourinstructional strategy, I'm more
equipped with the knowledgethat I need to make decisions
when I'm spending that timehearing from adults in the
system, students in the systems,parents and community members.
So while it's certainly a highpriority for me to be present
(12:17):
and to build those relationships, my hope is, every day when I
leave an interaction, thatpeople feel supported, they feel
heard and they feel like I care.
Because I do.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
This is the most important work that I can do and
I hope, leaving and coming intothose interactions, people know
that I'm coming from a place ofcare, and I want to make sure
that the listeners didn't missthat, because there was
something that you shared andit's something that I hear so
often when I'm learning aboutleadership, studying leadership
(12:48):
and trying to grow in leadership.
The word that you use that Ijust don't want people to miss
is listening, because I thinkoftentimes and I learned this
when I got into leadership I hadsome struggles initially
because I wanted to lead and doversus listen, and so I'm
leading and doing, but I don'tunderstand what the people that
(13:09):
I'm leading need, or what thestudents need, or what the staff
needs or, at times, what myselfneeded, because I was just so
busy trying to jump in and do.
And I don't want people to missbecause I think that is so
important that you shared I amhere to listen and sometimes, as
leaders, we need to do morelistening and less leading,
because that allows us to reallyhear the needs and the desires
(13:32):
of what the people that we'reworking with are looking for, so
then we can properly lead themin the direction.
Not even sometimes it's justthe way they need to be led Like
.
Not every person needs to beled the same direction, but you
learn that by listening andhearing what people have to say.
So I wanted to make sure thelisteners did not miss that,
because I think that is such animportant aspect in leading is
(13:54):
listening, and I think that'scritical that people hear that
part.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, absolutely, and knowing how to serve people too
.
So if there are specific needsof service that exist for me
really being able to hear, hearpeople out because I certainly
may have an idea or perspectiveabout what needs may exist and
(14:21):
if I go in with thatpreconceived menu or strategy
for service that does notrepresent or reflect the needs
that exist in that local context, then I'm not having the state
of Wisconsin, but then alsobeyond the state of Wisconsin
work that I do through myconsulting work.
I'm partnering with magicianand I'm also not the person who
has the solution everywhereeither, but I can support and
(14:41):
serve teams as they find theirsolutions and navigate their
(15:17):
journey by hearing them out, byunderstanding what some of the
complex experiences are andrealities are, and for me
sometimes the best thing that Ican do is just hear people out.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
So, yeah, I got that from being a work teacher.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
You know, go ahead, my bad.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
No, no, go ahead.
Okay, Sorry about that.
Yeah, Cause I want to kind ofdive in a little.
You know you're talking aboutthe work that you've done, how
you lead effectively and youdon't have all the solutions,
but one of the things that isvery apparent is that you have
left a mark on the people thatyou have worked around and you
(16:02):
know, and we talk about legacyand leaving an impact and, as
someone who has won a very, veryprestigious award,
congratulations on that as beingone of the most influential
African-Americans in the stateof Wisconsin when you talk about
a legacy, so what are somestrategies?
(16:24):
Because I think of the legacythat I want to leave as an
educator.
I think about the impact thatthose educators.
As you've heard my story, Ialways talk about those three
educators who really left animpact and their legacy lives
through me as I live my legacythrough others.
What are some of the ways thatan educator can leave that
(16:46):
lasting legacy and impact, inwhatever space they're currently
in?
What are some of the tips thatyou would give them?
As someone that spends timetrying to bring the best out of
people?
What would you say to thoseeducators that are trying to
leave a legacy, Because I know.
Whether they realize it or not,you don't get an education
because you're going to be amillionaire.
You get in it to change theworld and to leave an impact.
(17:08):
So what are some of the tipsyou would give to an educator
who want to leave a lastingimpact on their students?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, so I'm a member of our community that I believe
I'm doing the part that isdestined for me to do to make an
impact.
And there's a scripture that Irely heavily on is from the book
of Colossians, third chapter,23rd verse, and that is in all
that you do do it with your fullheart, as if it's for God and
not for people.
And there's some more to theverse, but to me, that's the
(17:47):
main substance of to me, thelegacy is being able to create
the conditions where people cando their best work, whether
that's as a paraprofessional, acounselor, a member of our
student support team, custodialstaff, principal office
assistant, whatever role we havein our system.
Being able to do our work withall of our heart, with all that
(18:10):
we have within us, as if this isfor God, like doing God's work,
and not for people.
And for me, I have to be ableto create the conditions where
everybody in our system and I domean 100% of the people in our
system feel like they can showup and be the best version of
(18:30):
themselves and do their bestwork, not for people.
And I even was like that with mystudents.
I remember my students sayingMr Coleman, I did your work.
I did your homework Like it'snot my homework, like this is
your work and I'm glad that youdid it.
And I'm glad that you weremotivated to do your work for me
(18:51):
because you wanted my approval.
But this is for you and moreimportantly than it is for you
like this is to fulfill the methat people value affirmation
that they would get from me or astamp of approval that they
would get from me.
(19:11):
And I don't underestimate theimpact of somebody hearing from
somebody who they respect thatI'm proud of you or that was
important work that you did.
And I make sure to tellstudents, staff, parents,
whoever I serve with you know Imake sure that they know that I
appreciate them, that I'm proudof them, that I respect them,
(19:31):
that I love them, and it'simportant for me to say that
because I know that that has animpact and it matters.
But I also want them to knowthat this isn't for me Like
there's a plan and a purposethat you would put on this earth
, for, whether they share thesame faith as me or not, there
is a purpose that they have ontheir life and for me, my legacy
is being able to help createthe structures and conditions
(19:53):
for people to show up and engagein this work with all that they
have in them, as if it isspecifically aligned to fulfill
the destiny on their life.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
If it is specifically alive to fulfill the destiny on
their life.
What are you know, you're,you're, you're trying to?
I'm trying to think of the bestway to say this.
Basically, what I'm trying toask is what are some of the
roadblocks?
Cause you're talking abouttrying to give people the space
to just be their best, theirbest selves, no matter what.
(20:24):
As a school leader, as adistrict leader bigger than a
school leader, you're managingand leading several schools.
What's some of the roadblocksyou're seeing?
Because, for me, I'm in oneschool 50 staff members it's
easy.
There's people that have askedme would you ever want to be a
(20:45):
superintendent of a big district?
And my answer, I think, wouldalways be no, because there's
different needs at so manydifferent schools that it's easy
.
And then I guess I can't sayit's easy.
Managing the same people in thesame environment is much easier
than managing multiple people,multiple environments.
One school over here, multipleenvironments.
(21:05):
One school over here needs onething.
One school over here needssomething different.
What are some of the roadblocksthat you're seeing from
district leadership that arestopping teachers in your
schools from or not even just inyour schools, you think, are
stopping educators in generalfrom being their best selves?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I think in every organization and education is
not unique to this the lack ofclarity can be a huge barrier.
If people aren't sure what'sexpected of them, or if what's
expected of them feelsunreasonable, that can be
probably the most significantbarrier.
(21:47):
So I go back to my days as ateacher.
I had students in my class thatwere just powerful and had a
range of needs for support.
They were at various levels oftheir proficiency and competence
and ability in reading and inmath and in social and emotional
(22:09):
maturity.
And so for me as a young, as anovice teacher, being expected
to close at that time what wewere calling achievement gaps,
what we know now are opportunitygaps and educational debt.
But being able to address thatwithout the training, without
(22:32):
the knowledge or the capacity todo that, certainly could feel
unreasonable.
And so I think one of thebiggest barriers is, if we have
high expectations, we also haveto have high care, high support
and high clarity so that what'sbeing expected from district
administration, school board,community members, principals,
(22:53):
colleagues, whatever thoseexpectations are, or even what
we expect the students, thatthere's a clear pathway to reach
that expectation.
And so to me, the biggestbarrier is we've gotten really
good at setting goals andtalking about benchmarks that we
want to reach, but I think theopportunity that we have to
(23:14):
really get better at isproviding clarity around what is
the pathway to get there, whatare the steps that it takes to
get there, and then can wehonestly say that these are
realistic, doable, sustainablesteps to take.
So I think that's that's usuallythe biggest barrier is that
clarity around how do we, how dowe reach our goals and how do
(23:36):
we reach our goals in ways thatare sustainable?
So I, in my earlier years of mycareer, spent a ton of time and
I just shout out to all of theclassroom teachers that are
(23:59):
listening right now seven hoursin the day, teaching and
engaging with students orinteracting with students, or
eight hours, but then it takesat least that much more time to
plan and prepare and rechargeand get the inspiration to come
back and do the work again, andso you know we have to create
(24:19):
the conditions where that'ssustainable, because people also
should have lives outside oftheir mission, work as educators
, and I know you talk a lotabout that and you've referenced
that in many talks that I'veheard you share as being able to
have that balance of time, andso I think the other part is not
only being clear but beingrealistic with.
It takes a lot of energy toreach the goals that we have
(24:43):
established, and if we have thatas an outcome, we also need to
have appropriately alignedinputs so that people can
sustain that can be missed in alot of schools.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I guess we ultimately know where we want to end up,
but, like you said, do you havea clear way to get there?
Not only that, are you clearlycommunicating it with everyone
in the building so everyone ison the same page?
(25:16):
And that is something that I'velearned as I've grown in
leadership.
It's like I have a great ideaof where I want to go, but does
everyone else?
Like if I took the time to askour team, where are we trying to
end up?
Like, everyone can recite yourmission, everyone can recite
your school slogan.
That's great, hopefully, but doyou?
But do you know what our goalis as a team?
(25:39):
It's like any.
Like I always try to use sportsas a reference Cause that's how
I grew up playing sports.
Like, do we all know what theoffense is?
Right, Because if one persondoesn't know the offense we're
running, it's going to throweveryone off and it takes
everyone working together to beon the same page to make sure
we're all pulling the rope thesame direction, because one or
(25:59):
two people pulling in adifferent direction and I say
that and it's not in a bad wayway, because I ultimately don't
think there's any teachersshowing up like I just am going
against the grain.
I think everyone shows up andthey're trying to do their best.
I think sometimes we havepeople pulling the rope the
wrong direction because therewas not a clear direction they
were given on which way we'repulling the rope.
(26:21):
So I think that is somethingthat I've seen that has been a
challenge for some educators isand it's what you were talking
about just making sure that weare very, very clear in what the
expectations are, what ourgoals are, what our direction is
, what our plan is, andsometimes we got to repeat it 10
different times, and that'sokay.
It's no different than withstudents.
People need to hear things overand over and over again to make
(26:44):
sure that they really, reallyunderstand what our goal is as a
school, as a district, as acommunity, and what we're trying
to accomplish Going with thatwith goals.
What are some of the things whenyou think about we're in 2024,
let's think about education in2030, like down the road.
(27:04):
We have AI going on, we havetechnology.
I mean, these things are justhave just kind of like taken a
lot by storm.
I use chat, gpt all the timefor little things where I'm like
, hey, here's my information,Can you help me make this look
nicer, or can you generate andformat this for me?
What are some of the thingswhen you think of five, six
(27:26):
years from now?
Where can you see educationgoing with technology?
I know literacy we're big onliteracy.
With the way technology isgoing, what are ways that we can
leverage and use some of that?
So in five or six years, I feellike I've been in some
educational spaces where peopleare really against it.
(27:47):
I'm not saying that's good orbad.
I just think at times if we canembrace some of these changes
like when the internet was firstcoming out, a lot of my
teachers were against it, andnow you look and it's like if
there's not internet in a school, people are freaking out.
So I'm just seeing the pasttrends.
What are some of the ways thatyou think?
Looking at the future.
(28:08):
How can we leverage some of theways that education is adapting
to put ourselves in a betterposition to be effective five or
six years from now?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Well, I think the best way that.
So we have to understand howtechnology will be used in in
the world around us toaccomplish tasks that right now
maybe you and I or people inother, in medicine and I use the
auto mechanics industry, forexample.
(28:39):
So we have to prepare studentsto be able to use the technology
that will be relevant for themwhen they begin to explore
opportunities.
So right now, if a studentreally if I'll name a student
his name is hypothetically Alexor her name is Alexandria,
whatever.
So Alex and Alexandria reallylove working on cars and they
(29:02):
are passionate about fixing cars, repairing cars, and so their
school auto shop should have thetechnology in it so that
they're not working on a carfrom 2001 or 2002 or learning
about car parts from 2002,because that way of that is
obsolete, 2002, because that wayof that is obsolete.
(29:26):
So our programming has toadjust so that kids are learning
how to program the computersand the sensors in cars or fix
the program the sensors in cars,so that when they're in their
career in tech class around automechanics and maintenance,
they're learning how to use thetechnology that present day auto
mechanics and shop workers areusing.
So when I go into career andtech auto shops around the
(29:49):
country and also here in Oshkosh.
I'm hoping to see studentsworking on things and using
technology that will preparethem for the field that they're
going in when they become adults.
So I think the ways that wecould use technology is.
One of those examples is beingclear on what industry, like
(30:10):
current industry, technologystandards and applications are,
and finding ways to providestudents to get exposure to
those opportunities.
That's from a career side.
I also think, when we arehelping students learn the
skills that they need, that theywill need to be successful in
high school, be successful incollege, if that's where they
(30:31):
choose to go.
They'll make presentations,they'll use ChatGPT and other
forms of AI to producepresentations and to produce
papers and their work, and Ithink we need to prepare
students to be able to do that.
So I think about old schoolgrant writing classes.
We shouldn't teach people howto write grants in an antiquated
(30:55):
way that nobody's using anymore, where it takes you 30 or 40
hours to write a grant.
Nobody's doing that anymore.
30 or 40 hours to write a grantNobody's doing that anymore.
Like they're leveragingtechnology and AI to write the
foundation of their grant or towrite IEPs and other things, and
so we need to prepare toleverage technology and help
(31:15):
people learn how to use that,because that is what they're
going to be expected to do inthe workforce and the
educational landscape that isahead of them five years from
now.
The way that I wrote mydissertation for my doctoral
program a year ago and two yearsago is not going to be how
students five years from nowwrite their dissertation.
(31:37):
They're going to have access toso much more information and so
much more.
They're going to have access toso much more information and so
much more like the just.
So I shouldn't give themassignments and projects and
tasks that prepare them for whatI had to go through in my
journey, because it doesn'tmatter, that's not what they're
going to experience, it's notwhat they're going to go through
.
So I think being able toanticipate as educators and as
(31:58):
as just within the system ofeducation, we have to anticipate
the technological advancementsthat are underway and that will
be students' realities, and thenpreparing them for that.
We can't look behind and saythis is the old time way and
this is the way that we used todo things and expect students to
fall in love with that and getreally good at doing what used
(32:18):
to work.
Fall in love with that and getreally good at doing what used
to work.
If that is our mission, thenwe're not setting our students
up to be competitive in arapidly changing,
technologically quicklyadvancing world.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
And it's changing fast.
And I think one of the things Iwas just talking to someone the
other day some of us arebecoming our parents.
Well, when I was in school,yeah, but we weren't in school,
we were in school 20 plus yearsago.
Like it's a much differentworld.
And, you know, we have to makesure that we are preparing our
students for the world thatthey're going to walk into, not
(32:53):
the world that we walked out of,because the world that we
walked out of it looks muchdifferent than the world that
our, you know, 14, 15, 16 yearolds are walking into.
Even just looking at the last 10years, how much technology has
changed the world and it's onlygoing to continue to change it.
So, instead of, you know, givingour students a bunch of busy
work like I remember writingpapers and it would take me two
(33:15):
months to write, you know yougot these 200 page things and
you got to research and like,like just teaching our kids,
like there are ways to do it,but they we also don't want our
kids to to not understand Likeit's still good to know how and
where to find information wejust also have to understand
that that information is muchmore readily available for our
(33:35):
students, but also teaching ourstudents that not everything you
find is the real information.
Like that is, I think, somethingthat schools are going to have
to learn really fast.
I saw a TikTok video thatsomeone sent me and it took me a
good two minutes to be like isthis AI?
It was like a plane about tohit another plane.
(33:56):
I kept watching and it ended upbeing AI, but it was so real
that I had to really stare at it.
If I would have just looked andkept it moving, I would have
believed it was so real that Ihad to, like, really stare at it
, and if I would have justlooked and kept it moving, I
would have believed it was areal video.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
And we have to make sure students understand the
difference between AI and real,because this world is going to
be fooling a lot of people theother skills that we're going to
have to be very deliberateabout teaching our students is
how to consume information anddecipher what is credible and
(34:27):
reliable information from whatis deceiving, misleading,
distorted, inaccurateinformation.
So as the access to informationcontinues to increase and
influence the thinking and theperceptions of society, we have
to make sure that we're doingour work to make sure students
are critical things not evenjust students, everybody in our
(34:49):
system as adults too that we areable to critically analyze and
consider the information we'reconsuming and make a decision
about the legitimacy andaccuracy of that information,
because there's so much outthere that is designed to be
misleading, to taint perspectiveand points of views or to
influence ideology or politicalperspectives and orient all of
(35:14):
that.
So if we don't get ahead of, Ithink, helping advance our
skills to be able to decipherquality of it and I'm very much
so a conspiracy theorist, so Ihave probably another podcast
for another time but certainlythe information that students
are and just society isreceiving, we have to have a
(35:38):
filter to be able to determinewhat's real and what's not,
what's motivated by some otherreal and what's not, what's
motivated by some other interestand what's not.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I mean, it's almost something I think schools are
going to have to.
It's almost something that,this day and age, it's going to
have to be a requirement of.
We're talking about financialliteracy being a requirement in
schools.
We almost need to have medialiteracy as a requirement as
well to really understand, likeeverything that we are consuming
, to know what's real, what'snot, what has a bias behind it
(36:09):
from one direction, what has abias behind it from another,
because ultimately, you know, asa society, it's like
information overload, so youhave to make sure that you're
consuming the right informationand as so, man, we flew through
this time.
We're going to get ready towrap up what I like to do.
I got a couple of rapid firequestions for you.
(36:29):
All right, let's do it so thefirst question I have best movie
of all time?
I guess not, let me say thebest movie.
Your favorite movie because itmay not be the best movie, your
favorite movie of all time?
What is it?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
American Gangster.
American Gangster, that's agood movie.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
My favorite movie?
Yes, all right.
So I think I may know theanswer to your next question.
If your biography is a movie,who's playing you as an actor?
Speaker 2 (37:03):
I heard the last part , so as an actor, I'm going with
Denzel.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Oh, so who is playing you?
I'm getting a little bufferingon my end too.
Oh, who's playing me?
Speaker 2 (37:11):
as an actor.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I thought that was still good.
Listen, the answer still workswho is?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
playing you.
Yeah, denzel, yeah, yeah, yeah,go with it.
I would pick him and play me,even though I'm light-skinned,
it's all right.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
He's going to have to figure it out, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Yeah, denzel Yep.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Well, man, I appreciate you taking time to
jump on.
Man, again, I appreciate thework that you're doing.
It was an honor sharing spacein your district.
But again, just hearing yourprincipal that I was fortunate
enough to work with, hearing howmuch she respects you and how
(37:49):
much she beams about yourleadership, it is not a shock
that Oshkosh is a better placebecause you are up there doing
the work that you're doing.
So, man, again, hats off to you.
I appreciate that you're upthere doing that.
I appreciate just, you know,just even just being connected
to you and all the work thatyou're doing, man.
So I just again want to giveyou your flowers because, man,
you're doing some great work.
So I just want to make surethat I again share that with you
(38:12):
.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Man flowers received.
I appreciate it and likewiseI'm thankful for you and all the
work that you do to amplify thevoices of our educators and our
leaders.
I certainly want to give EmilyIsenchenk a shout out.
Emily was recently acknowledgedby our school district as a new
administrator of the year.
And so she has certainly hit theground here and made a
tremendous impact quickly, andshe is an example of the honor
(38:38):
and the privilege that I have tobe able to work with a team of
leaders and educators who are soserious about doing that work
doing the best that we can withour full heart and all that we
have because it connects to thepurpose and the divine purpose
that we are set on this earth tofulfill.
So Emily is just one example ofthat and I'm one person in a
(39:00):
huge ecosystem here that isconnected to great work
happening and with humility Iaccept those flowers and say I'm
honored to be a part of anamazing team of people, an
amazing community, an amazingeducational body here that is
focused on getting better andbetter at what we do every day.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah, emily, I'm going to make sure you hear this
because when this comes liveI'm going to send it to you.
But you are an awesome leader.
If, if, there was an Emily inevery single school, this
country would be a better uh,would be in a better place
educational wise.
Because she is not only someonethat walks the walk, she talks
to talk Absolutely.
(39:38):
She supports her staff Um, shehears her staff, she picks them
up.
Man, she was just an absolute,incredible leader to be able to
sit and spend time with.
So, emily, thank you for allthat you do for Reed Elementary.
I enjoyed my time there, sam.
As we get off sorry, dr Colemanlet me make sure I keep that
(39:59):
respect out of you.
You earned that doctor in frontof it, respect out of it.
You earned that.
Doctor in front of it.
Man, let everyone know wherethey can find you your Instagram
, your website, wherever Ifthey're looking for support or
help.
I know you do some consulting.
Where can the listeners find DrSam Coleman?
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, so LinkedIn is a good place.
Just, sam Coleman, my Instagramis S underscore Coleman dot X,
again S underscore Coleman dot Xfor Instagram.
And then, through my consultantwork I see as equity dot org,
you can reach out to me and myteam there, or here, just at the
Oshkosh Area School District,or here, just at the Oshkosh
Area School District.
(40:42):
So either one of those ways aregood ways to reach me or text
me 414-810-8.
I'm not giving out my number,but, yeah, those ways, that's
how you can get in touch with mewhat I'll do.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
I'll make sure those that are listening you look into
the details of this, whetheryou're watching this on YouTube
or looking at it or listening toit on your favorite podcast
platform.
Check in the description.
I'll make sure that it'sdetailed there for you to find
them.
Dr Coleman, again, man, Iappreciate you for jumping on.
I appreciate your leadershipand just all you do, not only
for your students, but just theinfluence you have on the entire
(41:20):
state of Wisconsin.
Man, it's an honor to have youon here.
Continue to do the great work,and that is we will wrap up
Again, if you are listening,please make sure you like.
Please make sure you subscribeto this podcast.
Go, give Dr Coleman a follow,connect with him and we will see
you all back here next week.
Welcome to the Teacher's Ed podcast, where the
best and brightest in educationcome to inspire, to connect, to
learn and to grow.
I'm your host, edward DeSazer,and I appreciate you all for
joining me again this Sunday.
Even though I'm not recordingon a Sunday this is Sunday, so
it sounds weird to say but myguest today.
It's an honor to have Dr SamColeman on today.
(00:34):
He is a proud Milwaukee nativeand currently lives in the city
of Oshkosh.
He is the assistantsuperintendent for the Oshkosh
Area School District and wasrecently named by Madison 365 as
one of the most influentialBlack leaders of 2023 in the
state of Wisconsin.
His work is focused on providinghigh quality education for all
(00:55):
students, expanding access toopportunities and closing racial
gaps in achievement outcomes,particularly in reading and
literacy.
As a mentor, community servantand youth advocate, dr Coleman
believes that his calling inlife is to help raise upa
generation of leaders who willboldly create a new society that
(01:15):
fosters justice, cultural pride, achievement, collectivism and
self-determination.
And I can say specifically froma little bit of time I spent at
one of the schools in Oshkoshand Dr Coleman was there.
He is a leader and the peoplethat he gets opportunity to
serve are definitely better offbecause he is working with them.
(01:36):
Dr Coleman, I appreciate youfor jumping on and taking time
out to be with me today.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I appreciate you.
Thank you for that, for theintroduction, and also thank you
for just the opportunity for meto talk about what I love doing
the most and really what mylife's work is, and that is the
education of our young people.
So I'm excited to be on hereand I'm ready to jump in.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
So, just to begin, I know a little bit about your
journey.
I talked about all the greatthings you've done.
I would love just for you totake some time and let everyone
know how you ended up where youare, because really, this is not
where you started.
It's probably not where you'refinishing, but ultimately, like
what brought you to where youcurrently are are.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So my journey in K-12 education as an educator
started out as aparaprofessional at a parochial
school, a Christian school onMilwaukee's north side, actually
in the Sherman Park area, andso at that time I was on the
trajectory of being a lawenforcement officer.
On the trajectory of being alaw enforcement officer, I had
just completed an associate'sprogram at Waukesha County Tech
in criminal justice and policescience, enrolled in a
(02:53):
bachelor's program at CardinalStritch in business management,
and thought that I wanted to belike an organizational leader in
law enforcement.
And so, anyway, I attended thischurch and the church had a
school associated with it and Iremember the youth pastor at the
time just saying, like, haveyou ever thought about working
(03:16):
in education?
And so it really thatconversation that I had with my
youth pastor at that time reallygot me thinking about ways to
make an impact in localcommunities and proactive ways.
At that time I didn't see myselfas an educator.
I guess I also never had anyblack male teachers really as
(03:37):
that role model example for me.
So honestly, it wasn'tsomething that I envisioned for
myself, but I knew that I wantedto make an impact in the
community and prior to thatconversation, the way I thought
about that impact would be inlaw enforcement or youth
corrections or in the legaljustice field in some way.
(03:58):
But anyway, the door opened forme to envision myself as an
educator.
The door opened for me toenvision myself as an educator.
I started out as aparaprofessional, went into the
teaching role and then was aDean of students, a school
counselor, director of studentservices, curriculum instruction
and I was assistantsuperintendent.
So the journey and I think Ijust simplified it a lot it was
(04:20):
a lot more to the to the journeythan that.
But yeah, that was where itstarted and as a
paraprofessional, I wanted tomake a difference.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And that's I think it's valuable for people that
are listening, because it's likeyou actually have pretty much
covered every base in a school,because oftentimes people that
get into positions like yoursstarted off as a teacher, but
you actually started off as aparaprofessional, so you have
really climbed up in the spacethat you've been in, that, the
(04:52):
space that you're currently in.
And the first question I kind ofwant to jump into and you've
talked about a little bit, butwhat?
Let me start by asking when youthink about education, I think
a lot of people have differentphilosophies and I know you are
big on trying to close that gapin literacy.
But what would you say is yourphilosophy on where education is
(05:14):
now?
But then, ultimately, where doyou want to see education going?
Because I think anyone that'slistening knows I feel like
we're kind of at a crossroad ineducation.
I think anyone that's listeningknows I feel like we're kind of
at a crossroad in education.
So I'd be curious kind of whatis your stance on your
philosophy in education andwhere you would like to see the
educational world go, you know,under your leadership?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah.
So I think it depends.
It comes from a few differentperspectives.
I think what I want educationto be for students, most
importantly, I have a student'sfirst philosophy, student's
first mantra.
So I want K-12 education to bea space of liberation for
students, where they canexperience artistic, academic,
intellectual, athletic freedoms,where they can explore
themselves, explorepossibilities in ways that allow
(06:03):
them to learn with their peers,learn alongside others and
explore possibilities themselves, without hindrances or
limitations on that.
So for students, I wanteducation to be a place of
freedom and liberation and allof those areas that I just named
.
For parents, I want oureducation to be a place where
(06:23):
they can trust the systems andthe spaces where they're sending
their students to, in manycases five days a week, for
seven or eight or more hours aday, trusting that this is an
environment where the studentswill be safe, the students will
get healthy exposure to theunique diversity that exists in
the world around them, and thatthe students are learning ways
(06:44):
to be contributing citizens,even now, as young people, to
the world that they live in.
And then, for educators, schoolsshould be a place where we find
our passions and our joys andour fulfillment maximized by
being able to put our all intothe work that we care the most
about and being able to see theresults and the impact of that
(07:05):
work.
So, for me personally as aneducator, I want educators to
feel like they can do their bestwork with the most amount of
support and the most clarity andthe most alignment, to have the
most impact.
And while that is a very highambition to have, my philosophy
is we are the best that we canbe for students when we are
(07:27):
doing our best work with themost alignment, with the most
support, with the most clarity,having the most impact.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Sorry for the interruption.
I want to take a moment torecognize the sponsor of the
Teachers Ed podcast.
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(07:55):
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Now back to the episode, and Ijust hearing what you're saying.
(08:15):
I think the word well, twowords that really stood out to
me is support and hearing itlike not only do we have to
support our students in astudent-centered environment,
but we also have to support theadults, and I think that is
something that can get missed attimes because we are so
student-focused that we forgetthat our adults need support
(08:39):
right now too.
And I love hearing you say that, because when I spend time in
schools, that is one thing Ihear the most from teachers and
educators who are at that kindof burnout phase.
They're just like I don't feelsupported by my leadership, and
that was one of the things thatreally stood out to me in my
time that I spent at ReedElementary was just watching.
(09:02):
I'm big on watching how peopleinteract, especially when I'm
spending time in a school, andwatching how you came into the
room it was very evident thatthe people there knew you
supported them.
But even just kind ofoverhearing the conversations,
it was refreshing to seeleadership that felt connected
(09:24):
with their staff and I thinkthat just kind of hearing what
you're saying, I think you'redoing an excellent job.
But I've actually seen you inwork.
So it's not like you know we getpeople that get on the internet
and they, as the kids say, theylove to cap about what they're
about Like man we want tosupport, but like I actually
heard and saw how the staffthere respected you because it's
(09:45):
very clear that you know you'resomeone that will come in and
roll their sleeves up asleadership.
So I let me just acknowledgethat I've seen the work that you
do and just lift my hat off toyou because it's very evident in
the work that you know a, thatyou support your staff, that you
actually care for them, thatyou know a, that you support
your staff, that you actuallycare for them, and I think that
(10:15):
has a trickle down effect, thatthen the staff can do that for
their students, because they're,they're, you're modeling what
you need them to do by doing itfor the adults.
So, like that was the word whenyou were talking that really
stood out to me was, you know,supporting and caring for the
people that you get theopportunity to serve?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
you know, supporting and caring for the people that
you get the opportunity to serve.
Yeah, I mean.
First of all, thank you so muchfor just saying that and just
sharing those words ofaffirmation.
I think for me, the supportthat we need as adults working
in a system, doing verydifficult work in ways that
might be very difficult tosustain momentum every day,
(10:46):
doing the type of work that wedo, there are very strategic
ways that we can support eachother, but also very strategic
ways that I think we have toadvocate for the support that's
needed.
And sometimes it really is justfor me, working in central
office as a teacher at heart, itis impossible for me to be the
(11:08):
type of administrator that sitsin my office, you know, at my
computer, waiting for somebodyto call me or waiting for
somebody to email me.
I get my energy from being inclassrooms, being in schools,
working alongside students,alongside educators, alongside
special education teachers,counselors, principals,
(11:30):
paraprofessionals, parents.
So, and I don't, and I'm alwayslearning new ways to support.
Sometimes it is just listening,sometimes it's being present
and showing up, sometimes it'scoming in to to learn from
students, from staff, fromparents.
So, as I continue to learn newways to support, I'm eager to
(11:51):
put that learning into actionbecause it makes me do my work
better.
I can be more informed as anassistant superintendent,
particularly as I coordinate ourinstructional strategy.
As I coordinate ourinstructional strategy, I'm more
equipped with the knowledgethat I need to make decisions
when I'm spending that timehearing from adults in the
system, students in the systems,parents and community members.
So while it's certainly a highpriority for me to be present
(12:17):
and to build those relationships, my hope is, every day when I
leave an interaction, thatpeople feel supported, they feel
heard and they feel like I care.
Because I do.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
This is the most important work that I can do and
I hope, leaving and coming intothose interactions, people know
that I'm coming from a place ofcare, and I want to make sure
that the listeners didn't missthat, because there was
something that you shared andit's something that I hear so
often when I'm learning aboutleadership, studying leadership
(12:48):
and trying to grow in leadership.
The word that you use that Ijust don't want people to miss
is listening, because I thinkoftentimes and I learned this
when I got into leadership I hadsome struggles initially
because I wanted to lead and doversus listen, and so I'm
leading and doing, but I don'tunderstand what the people that
(13:09):
I'm leading need, or what thestudents need, or what the staff
needs or, at times, what myselfneeded, because I was just so
busy trying to jump in and do.
And I don't want people to missbecause I think that is so
important that you shared I amhere to listen and sometimes, as
leaders, we need to do morelistening and less leading,
because that allows us to reallyhear the needs and the desires
(13:32):
of what the people that we'reworking with are looking for, so
then we can properly lead themin the direction.
Not even sometimes it's justthe way they need to be led Like
.
Not every person needs to beled the same direction, but you
learn that by listening andhearing what people have to say.
So I wanted to make sure thelisteners did not miss that,
because I think that is such animportant aspect in leading is
(13:54):
listening, and I think that'scritical that people hear that
part.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, absolutely, and knowing how to serve people too
.
So if there are specific needsof service that exist for me
really being able to hear, hearpeople out because I certainly
may have an idea or perspectiveabout what needs may exist and
(14:21):
if I go in with thatpreconceived menu or strategy
for service that does notrepresent or reflect the needs
that exist in that local context, then I'm not having the state
of Wisconsin, but then alsobeyond the state of Wisconsin
work that I do through myconsulting work.
I'm partnering with magicianand I'm also not the person who
has the solution everywhereeither, but I can support and
(14:41):
serve teams as they find theirsolutions and navigate their
(15:17):
journey by hearing them out, byunderstanding what some of the
complex experiences are andrealities are, and for me
sometimes the best thing that Ican do is just hear people out.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
So, yeah, I got that from being a work teacher.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
You know, go ahead, my bad.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
No, no, go ahead.
Okay, Sorry about that.
Yeah, Cause I want to kind ofdive in a little.
You know you're talking aboutthe work that you've done, how
you lead effectively and youdon't have all the solutions,
but one of the things that isvery apparent is that you have
left a mark on the people thatyou have worked around and you
(16:02):
know, and we talk about legacyand leaving an impact and, as
someone who has won a very, veryprestigious award,
congratulations on that as beingone of the most influential
African-Americans in the stateof Wisconsin when you talk about
a legacy, so what are somestrategies?
(16:24):
Because I think of the legacythat I want to leave as an
educator.
I think about the impact thatthose educators.
As you've heard my story, Ialways talk about those three
educators who really left animpact and their legacy lives
through me as I live my legacythrough others.
What are some of the ways thatan educator can leave that
(16:46):
lasting legacy and impact, inwhatever space they're currently
in?
What are some of the tips thatyou would give them?
As someone that spends timetrying to bring the best out of
people?
What would you say to thoseeducators that are trying to
leave a legacy, Because I know.
Whether they realize it or not,you don't get an education
because you're going to be amillionaire.
You get in it to change theworld and to leave an impact.
(17:08):
So what are some of the tipsyou would give to an educator
who want to leave a lastingimpact on their students?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, so I'm a member of our community that I believe
I'm doing the part that isdestined for me to do to make an
impact.
And there's a scripture that Irely heavily on is from the book
of Colossians, third chapter,23rd verse, and that is in all
that you do do it with your fullheart, as if it's for God and
not for people.
And there's some more to theverse, but to me, that's the
(17:47):
main substance of to me, thelegacy is being able to create
the conditions where people cando their best work, whether
that's as a paraprofessional, acounselor, a member of our
student support team, custodialstaff, principal office
assistant, whatever role we havein our system.
Being able to do our work withall of our heart, with all that
(18:10):
we have within us, as if this isfor God, like doing God's work,
and not for people.
And for me, I have to be ableto create the conditions where
everybody in our system and I domean 100% of the people in our
system feel like they can showup and be the best version of
(18:30):
themselves and do their bestwork, not for people.
And I even was like that with mystudents.
I remember my students sayingMr Coleman, I did your work.
I did your homework Like it'snot my homework, like this is
your work and I'm glad that youdid it.
And I'm glad that you weremotivated to do your work for me
(18:51):
because you wanted my approval.
But this is for you and moreimportantly than it is for you
like this is to fulfill the methat people value affirmation
that they would get from me or astamp of approval that they
would get from me.
(19:11):
And I don't underestimate theimpact of somebody hearing from
somebody who they respect thatI'm proud of you or that was
important work that you did.
And I make sure to tellstudents, staff, parents,
whoever I serve with you know Imake sure that they know that I
appreciate them, that I'm proudof them, that I respect them,
(19:31):
that I love them, and it'simportant for me to say that
because I know that that has animpact and it matters.
But I also want them to knowthat this isn't for me Like
there's a plan and a purposethat you would put on this earth
, for, whether they share thesame faith as me or not, there
is a purpose that they have ontheir life and for me, my legacy
is being able to help createthe structures and conditions
(19:53):
for people to show up and engagein this work with all that they
have in them, as if it isspecifically aligned to fulfill
the destiny on their life.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
If it is specifically alive to fulfill the destiny on
their life.
What are you know, you're,you're, you're trying to?
I'm trying to think of the bestway to say this.
Basically, what I'm trying toask is what are some of the
roadblocks?
Cause you're talking abouttrying to give people the space
to just be their best, theirbest selves, no matter what.
(20:24):
As a school leader, as adistrict leader bigger than a
school leader, you're managingand leading several schools.
What's some of the roadblocksyou're seeing?
Because, for me, I'm in oneschool 50 staff members it's
easy.
There's people that have askedme would you ever want to be a
(20:45):
superintendent of a big district?
And my answer, I think, wouldalways be no, because there's
different needs at so manydifferent schools that it's easy
.
And then I guess I can't sayit's easy.
Managing the same people in thesame environment is much easier
than managing multiple people,multiple environments.
One school over here, multipleenvironments.
(21:05):
One school over here needs onething.
One school over here needssomething different.
What are some of the roadblocksthat you're seeing from
district leadership that arestopping teachers in your
schools from or not even just inyour schools, you think, are
stopping educators in generalfrom being their best selves?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I think in every organization and education is
not unique to this the lack ofclarity can be a huge barrier.
If people aren't sure what'sexpected of them, or if what's
expected of them feelsunreasonable, that can be
probably the most significantbarrier.
(21:47):
So I go back to my days as ateacher.
I had students in my class thatwere just powerful and had a
range of needs for support.
They were at various levels oftheir proficiency and competence
and ability in reading and inmath and in social and emotional
(22:09):
maturity.
And so for me as a young, as anovice teacher, being expected
to close at that time what wewere calling achievement gaps,
what we know now are opportunitygaps and educational debt.
But being able to address thatwithout the training, without
(22:32):
the knowledge or the capacity todo that, certainly could feel
unreasonable.
And so I think one of thebiggest barriers is, if we have
high expectations, we also haveto have high care, high support
and high clarity so that what'sbeing expected from district
administration, school board,community members, principals,
(22:53):
colleagues, whatever thoseexpectations are, or even what
we expect the students, thatthere's a clear pathway to reach
that expectation.
And so to me, the biggestbarrier is we've gotten really
good at setting goals andtalking about benchmarks that we
want to reach, but I think theopportunity that we have to
(23:14):
really get better at isproviding clarity around what is
the pathway to get there, whatare the steps that it takes to
get there, and then can wehonestly say that these are
realistic, doable, sustainablesteps to take.
So I think that's that's usuallythe biggest barrier is that
clarity around how do we, how dowe reach our goals and how do
(23:36):
we reach our goals in ways thatare sustainable?
So I, in my earlier years of mycareer, spent a ton of time and
I just shout out to all of theclassroom teachers that are
(23:59):
listening right now seven hoursin the day, teaching and
engaging with students orinteracting with students, or
eight hours, but then it takesat least that much more time to
plan and prepare and rechargeand get the inspiration to come
back and do the work again, andso you know we have to create
(24:19):
the conditions where that'ssustainable, because people also
should have lives outside oftheir mission, work as educators
, and I know you talk a lotabout that and you've referenced
that in many talks that I'veheard you share as being able to
have that balance of time, andso I think the other part is not
only being clear but beingrealistic with.
It takes a lot of energy toreach the goals that we have
(24:43):
established, and if we have thatas an outcome, we also need to
have appropriately alignedinputs so that people can
sustain that can be missed in alot of schools.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I guess we ultimately know where we want to end up,
but, like you said, do you havea clear way to get there?
Not only that, are you clearlycommunicating it with everyone
in the building so everyone ison the same page?
(25:16):
And that is something that I'velearned as I've grown in
leadership.
It's like I have a great ideaof where I want to go, but does
everyone else?
Like if I took the time to askour team, where are we trying to
end up?
Like, everyone can recite yourmission, everyone can recite
your school slogan.
That's great, hopefully, but doyou?
But do you know what our goalis as a team?
(25:39):
It's like any.
Like I always try to use sportsas a reference Cause that's how
I grew up playing sports.
Like, do we all know what theoffense is?
Right, Because if one persondoesn't know the offense we're
running, it's going to throweveryone off and it takes
everyone working together to beon the same page to make sure
we're all pulling the rope thesame direction, because one or
(25:59):
two people pulling in adifferent direction and I say
that and it's not in a bad wayway, because I ultimately don't
think there's any teachersshowing up like I just am going
against the grain.
I think everyone shows up andthey're trying to do their best.
I think sometimes we havepeople pulling the rope the
wrong direction because therewas not a clear direction they
were given on which way we'repulling the rope.
(26:21):
So I think that is somethingthat I've seen that has been a
challenge for some educators isand it's what you were talking
about just making sure that weare very, very clear in what the
expectations are, what ourgoals are, what our direction is
, what our plan is, andsometimes we got to repeat it 10
different times, and that'sokay.
It's no different than withstudents.
People need to hear things overand over and over again to make
(26:44):
sure that they really, reallyunderstand what our goal is as a
school, as a district, as acommunity, and what we're trying
to accomplish Going with thatwith goals.
What are some of the things whenyou think about we're in 2024,
let's think about education in2030, like down the road.
(27:04):
We have AI going on, we havetechnology.
I mean, these things are justhave just kind of like taken a
lot by storm.
I use chat, gpt all the timefor little things where I'm like
, hey, here's my information,Can you help me make this look
nicer, or can you generate andformat this for me?
What are some of the thingswhen you think of five, six
(27:26):
years from now?
Where can you see educationgoing with technology?
I know literacy we're big onliteracy.
With the way technology isgoing, what are ways that we can
leverage and use some of that?
So in five or six years, I feellike I've been in some
educational spaces where peopleare really against it.
(27:47):
I'm not saying that's good orbad.
I just think at times if we canembrace some of these changes
like when the internet was firstcoming out, a lot of my
teachers were against it, andnow you look and it's like if
there's not internet in a school, people are freaking out.
So I'm just seeing the pasttrends.
What are some of the ways thatyou think?
Looking at the future.
(28:08):
How can we leverage some of theways that education is adapting
to put ourselves in a betterposition to be effective five or
six years from now?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Well, I think the best way that.
So we have to understand howtechnology will be used in in
the world around us toaccomplish tasks that right now
maybe you and I or people inother, in medicine and I use the
auto mechanics industry, forexample.
(28:39):
So we have to prepare studentsto be able to use the technology
that will be relevant for themwhen they begin to explore
opportunities.
So right now, if a studentreally if I'll name a student
his name is hypothetically Alexor her name is Alexandria,
whatever.
So Alex and Alexandria reallylove working on cars and they
(29:02):
are passionate about fixing cars, repairing cars, and so their
school auto shop should have thetechnology in it so that
they're not working on a carfrom 2001 or 2002 or learning
about car parts from 2002,because that way of that is
obsolete, 2002, because that wayof that is obsolete.
(29:26):
So our programming has toadjust so that kids are learning
how to program the computersand the sensors in cars or fix
the program the sensors in cars,so that when they're in their
career in tech class around automechanics and maintenance,
they're learning how to use thetechnology that present day auto
mechanics and shop workers areusing.
So when I go into career andtech auto shops around the
(29:49):
country and also here in Oshkosh.
I'm hoping to see studentsworking on things and using
technology that will preparethem for the field that they're
going in when they become adults.
So I think the ways that wecould use technology is.
One of those examples is beingclear on what industry, like
(30:10):
current industry, technologystandards and applications are,
and finding ways to providestudents to get exposure to
those opportunities.
That's from a career side.
I also think, when we arehelping students learn the
skills that they need, that theywill need to be successful in
high school, be successful incollege, if that's where they
(30:31):
choose to go.
They'll make presentations,they'll use ChatGPT and other
forms of AI to producepresentations and to produce
papers and their work, and Ithink we need to prepare
students to be able to do that.
So I think about old schoolgrant writing classes.
We shouldn't teach people howto write grants in an antiquated
(30:55):
way that nobody's using anymore, where it takes you 30 or 40
hours to write a grant.
Nobody's doing that anymore.
30 or 40 hours to write a grantNobody's doing that anymore.
Like they're leveragingtechnology and AI to write the
foundation of their grant or towrite IEPs and other things, and
so we need to prepare toleverage technology and help
(31:15):
people learn how to use that,because that is what they're
going to be expected to do inthe workforce and the
educational landscape that isahead of them five years from
now.
The way that I wrote mydissertation for my doctoral
program a year ago and two yearsago is not going to be how
students five years from nowwrite their dissertation.
(31:37):
They're going to have access toso much more information and so
much more.
They're going to have access toso much more information and so
much more like the just.
So I shouldn't give themassignments and projects and
tasks that prepare them for whatI had to go through in my
journey, because it doesn'tmatter, that's not what they're
going to experience, it's notwhat they're going to go through
.
So I think being able toanticipate as educators and as
(31:58):
as just within the system ofeducation, we have to anticipate
the technological advancementsthat are underway and that will
be students' realities, and thenpreparing them for that.
We can't look behind and saythis is the old time way and
this is the way that we used todo things and expect students to
fall in love with that and getreally good at doing what used
(32:18):
to work.
Fall in love with that and getreally good at doing what used
to work.
If that is our mission, thenwe're not setting our students
up to be competitive in arapidly changing,
technologically quicklyadvancing world.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
And it's changing fast.
And I think one of the things Iwas just talking to someone the
other day some of us arebecoming our parents.
Well, when I was in school,yeah, but we weren't in school,
we were in school 20 plus yearsago.
Like it's a much differentworld.
And, you know, we have to makesure that we are preparing our
students for the world thatthey're going to walk into, not
(32:53):
the world that we walked out of,because the world that we
walked out of it looks muchdifferent than the world that
our, you know, 14, 15, 16 yearolds are walking into.
Even just looking at the last 10years, how much technology has
changed the world and it's onlygoing to continue to change it.
So, instead of, you know, givingour students a bunch of busy
work like I remember writingpapers and it would take me two
(33:15):
months to write, you know yougot these 200 page things and
you got to research and like,like just teaching our kids,
like there are ways to do it,but they we also don't want our
kids to to not understand Likeit's still good to know how and
where to find information wejust also have to understand
that that information is muchmore readily available for our
(33:35):
students, but also teaching ourstudents that not everything you
find is the real information.
Like that is, I think, somethingthat schools are going to have
to learn really fast.
I saw a TikTok video thatsomeone sent me and it took me a
good two minutes to be like isthis AI?
It was like a plane about tohit another plane.
(33:56):
I kept watching and it ended upbeing AI, but it was so real
that I had to really stare at it.
If I would have just looked andkept it moving, I would have
believed it was so real that Ihad to, like, really stare at it
, and if I would have justlooked and kept it moving, I
would have believed it was areal video.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
And we have to make sure students understand the
difference between AI and real,because this world is going to
be fooling a lot of people theother skills that we're going to
have to be very deliberateabout teaching our students is
how to consume information anddecipher what is credible and
(34:27):
reliable information from whatis deceiving, misleading,
distorted, inaccurateinformation.
So as the access to informationcontinues to increase and
influence the thinking and theperceptions of society, we have
to make sure that we're doingour work to make sure students
are critical things not evenjust students, everybody in our
(34:49):
system as adults too that we areable to critically analyze and
consider the information we'reconsuming and make a decision
about the legitimacy andaccuracy of that information,
because there's so much outthere that is designed to be
misleading, to taint perspectiveand points of views or to
influence ideology or politicalperspectives and orient all of
(35:14):
that.
So if we don't get ahead of, Ithink, helping advance our
skills to be able to decipherquality of it and I'm very much
so a conspiracy theorist, so Ihave probably another podcast
for another time but certainlythe information that students
are and just society isreceiving, we have to have a
(35:38):
filter to be able to determinewhat's real and what's not,
what's motivated by some otherreal and what's not, what's
motivated by some other interestand what's not.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I mean, it's almost something I think schools are
going to have to.
It's almost something that,this day and age, it's going to
have to be a requirement of.
We're talking about financialliteracy being a requirement in
schools.
We almost need to have medialiteracy as a requirement as
well to really understand, likeeverything that we are consuming
, to know what's real, what'snot, what has a bias behind it
(36:09):
from one direction, what has abias behind it from another,
because ultimately, you know, asa society, it's like
information overload, so youhave to make sure that you're
consuming the right informationand as so, man, we flew through
this time.
We're going to get ready towrap up what I like to do.
I got a couple of rapid firequestions for you.
(36:29):
All right, let's do it so thefirst question I have best movie
of all time?
I guess not, let me say thebest movie.
Your favorite movie because itmay not be the best movie, your
favorite movie of all time?
What is it?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
American Gangster.
American Gangster, that's agood movie.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
My favorite movie?
Yes, all right.
So I think I may know theanswer to your next question.
If your biography is a movie,who's playing you as an actor?
Speaker 2 (37:03):
I heard the last part , so as an actor, I'm going with
Denzel.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Oh, so who is playing you?
I'm getting a little bufferingon my end too.
Oh, who's playing me?
Speaker 2 (37:11):
as an actor.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I thought that was still good.
Listen, the answer still workswho is?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
playing you.
Yeah, denzel, yeah, yeah, yeah,go with it.
I would pick him and play me,even though I'm light-skinned,
it's all right.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
He's going to have to figure it out, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Yeah, denzel Yep.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Well, man, I appreciate you taking time to
jump on.
Man, again, I appreciate thework that you're doing.
It was an honor sharing spacein your district.
But again, just hearing yourprincipal that I was fortunate
enough to work with, hearing howmuch she respects you and how
(37:49):
much she beams about yourleadership, it is not a shock
that Oshkosh is a better placebecause you are up there doing
the work that you're doing.
So, man, again, hats off to you.
I appreciate that you're upthere doing that.
I appreciate just, you know,just even just being connected
to you and all the work thatyou're doing, man.
So I just again want to giveyou your flowers because, man,
you're doing some great work.
So I just want to make surethat I again share that with you
(38:12):
.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Man flowers received.
I appreciate it and likewiseI'm thankful for you and all the
work that you do to amplify thevoices of our educators and our
leaders.
I certainly want to give EmilyIsenchenk a shout out.
Emily was recently acknowledgedby our school district as a new
administrator of the year.
And so she has certainly hit theground here and made a
tremendous impact quickly, andshe is an example of the honor
(38:38):
and the privilege that I have tobe able to work with a team of
leaders and educators who are soserious about doing that work
doing the best that we can withour full heart and all that we
have because it connects to thepurpose and the divine purpose
that we are set on this earth tofulfill.
So Emily is just one example ofthat and I'm one person in a
(39:00):
huge ecosystem here that isconnected to great work
happening and with humility Iaccept those flowers and say I'm
honored to be a part of anamazing team of people, an
amazing community, an amazingeducational body here that is
focused on getting better andbetter at what we do every day.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah, emily, I'm going to make sure you hear this
because when this comes liveI'm going to send it to you.
But you are an awesome leader.
If, if, there was an Emily inevery single school, this
country would be a better uh,would be in a better place
educational wise.
Because she is not only someonethat walks the walk, she talks
to talk Absolutely.
(39:38):
She supports her staff Um, shehears her staff, she picks them
up.
Man, she was just an absolute,incredible leader to be able to
sit and spend time with.
So, emily, thank you for allthat you do for Reed Elementary.
I enjoyed my time there, sam.
As we get off sorry, dr Colemanlet me make sure I keep that
(39:59):
respect out of you.
You earned that doctor in frontof it, respect out of it.
You earned that.
Doctor in front of it.
Man, let everyone know wherethey can find you your Instagram
, your website, wherever Ifthey're looking for support or
help.
I know you do some consulting.
Where can the listeners find DrSam Coleman?
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, so LinkedIn is a good place.
Just, sam Coleman, my Instagramis S underscore Coleman dot X,
again S underscore Coleman dot Xfor Instagram.
And then, through my consultantwork I see as equity dot org,
you can reach out to me and myteam there, or here, just at the
Oshkosh Area School District,or here, just at the Oshkosh
Area School District.
(40:42):
So either one of those ways aregood ways to reach me or text
me 414-810-8.
I'm not giving out my number,but, yeah, those ways, that's
how you can get in touch with mewhat I'll do.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
I'll make sure those that are listening you look into
the details of this, whetheryou're watching this on YouTube
or looking at it or listening toit on your favorite podcast
platform.
Check in the description.
I'll make sure that it'sdetailed there for you to find
them.
Dr Coleman, again, man, Iappreciate you for jumping on.
I appreciate your leadershipand just all you do, not only
for your students, but just theinfluence you have on the entire
(41:20):
state of Wisconsin.
Man, it's an honor to have youon here.
Continue to do the great work,and that is we will wrap up
Again, if you are listening,please make sure you like.
Please make sure you subscribeto this podcast.
Go, give Dr Coleman a follow,connect with him and we will see
you all back here next week.
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